updated 11/11/2005 10:15:24 AM ET 2005-11-11T15:15:24

Guest: Andy Hill, Michelle Suskauer, Pam Bondi, Brad Hamilton, Candice

Delong, Donna Rice Hughes

LISA DANIELS, GUEST HOST: Coming up, police rescue a 15-year-old girl they say was living as a sex slave in Arizona. 


DANIELS (voice-over):  The girl's kidnappers allegedly forced her to live in a dog kennel, threatened to kill her and her family and made her have sex for money with men they found on the Internet. 

And new photos of the journalist wanted in New York.  Police say he dressed as a firefighter on Halloween, forced his way into a woman's apartment and sexually assaulted her for 12 hours. 

Plus, you've seen the tape.  “Dateline NBC's” undercover investigation, looking for potential sex offenders on line.  Now we'll tell you how to protect your children. 

The program about justice starts right now. 


DANIELS:  Hi, everyone.  I'm Lisa Daniels sitting in for Dan tonight.

First up on the docket, a horrifying story out of Phoenix, Arizona.  A 15-year-old runaway allegedly abducted by an older teenage couple.  She was gang raped, turned into a sex slave, her body sold over the Internet for weeks until she was finally able to call her parents and she was rescued by police. 

Reporter Kevin Kennedy with NBC affiliate KPNX spoke with the victim's mother. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  No words to describe how glad I am to have her home. 

KEVIN KENNEDY, KPNX REPORTER (voice-over):  Words.  They're hard to come by after seeing what your daughter was locked in and knowing what she went through. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  And I look at her and I just can't believe how she survived it. 

KENNEDY:  But somehow she did despite the rapes, the tortures and the threats. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It's horrific.  I mean the news, the reports that they have don't even touch the surface of what they did. 

KENNEDY:  For six weeks, she was a prisoner inside this apartment.  Police say the suspects pimped her out to strangers they found her on the Internet. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  They even—at the end, they had her answering (INAUDIBLE) you know setting up her own appointments. 

KENNEDY:  Investigators say the psychological torture was so extreme and so violent, even when she had chances to leave, she didn't.  But the day before police found her, she called her family. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  She was very scared and very sorry that everything was happening and for all the trouble she's caused. 

KENNEDY:  An apology, but no information, still afraid the suspects would kill her or her family, she hung up without telling anyone where she was.  The next day, police found her huddled in a two-foot by two-foot wood box. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We just ran to each another and we just broke down. 

KENNEDY:  Her road to recovery is just the beginning.  But this 15-year-old is a survivor. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  She's going to be OK.  She's going to be OK.


DANIELS:  And that was Kevin Kennedy reporting.  Now the two suspects in the case, 19-year-old Janelle Butler and 18-year-old Matthew Gray are in custody, both facing multiple counts of pandering and receiving the earnings of a prostitute.  They're also charged with child prostitution and kidnapping and Matthew Gray has been charged with sexual assault and sexual conduct with a minor. 

Sergeant Andy Hill is a spokesman with the Phoenix Police and Sergeant, let me just ask you, are you surprised that you found the victim alive after all that? 

SGT. ANDY HILL, PHOENIX CITY POLICE DEPT.:  You know, Lisa, it's such a horrible story which often has a terrible ending.  In this case, we were very fortunate to find her alive because there have been many instances where this type of thing happens where the victim does not survive. 

DANIELS:  What do you think kept her alive?

HILL:  Well I think she's a courageous young woman and other than the grace of God, she had a lot of fortitude and strength and there were a lot people that were looking for her.  Our officers worked diligently to find her each time they got a piece of information, and we're very fortunate that we were able to get to her in time.

DANIELS:  Now I know that the police visited the apartment three times where she was actually being hidden and held up.  What led you to that apartment? 

HILL:  Well, after the report was made to the police department where

·         in the area where she lived, some information made its way to the Phoenix Police Department and officers actually went out there to check on a missing runaway.  And as you know, there are so many missing and runaway children; we get a lot of reports that officers followed up on. 

But these officers took the time to look into it as best they could and actually write a report which was forwarded to a detective who looks into these type of situations and he then forwarded it to a couple of particular patrol officers that are very good at finding these runaways and they began to look when they had chances. 

As a matter of fact, we were in that apartment, as you know, a couple of times.  We were able to look around.  We couldn't find her because they had her hidden in a kind of a cutout box underneath a platform bed, which was covered with a plywood piece of wood.  And they were actually in there and she was already hidden in there, but was so afraid that she couldn't talk at all about it.  She couldn't say a word because she was afraid for herself and the fact that her family had been threatened with death as well. 

DANIELS:  Yes, we just saw that box.  I mean it's amazing that somebody can actually be in that box for too long.  Wouldn't you think that she would suffocate being in there? 

HILL:  Well eventually those officers came in the other night and actually left and then came back and actually separated the two suspects and were able to convince the female suspect to tell them about the case and that female suspect, Ms. Butler, said that she was afraid that she was going to run out of oxygen and that's when the officers immediately went in and got her out of there.

DANIELS:  But I mean in all of your years, have you ever seen a case as horrendous as this.  Think back in your many years.  I mean to me it just seems—I haven't heard something like this. 

HILL:  Well Lisa, I don't have to think very long.  In 22 years of police work, working with a lot of different investigations and units, I have not seen anything quite like this.  A lot of the individual components that happen to people, gang rape, brain washing, torture, child prostitution, but to put them all together in this type of situation and include the fact that she was kept hidden in that box under the bed, I haven't seen anything like that. 

DANIELS:  I think a lot of viewers at home, Sergeant, are thinking why didn't she make the phone call earlier.  If there was a cell phone there, couldn't she sneak around and find the phone and call her parents?  What's the psychological barrier that the people allegedly set up to prevent her from doing that? 

HILL:  Well within hours of her first running away or being missing from home, she was kidnapped, she was bound, gagged, taken to another apartment and she was gang raped for hours.  That was her initial contact with those suspects.  Then for the next three days, periodically, she was put in that dog kennel. 

They beat her down physically, emotionally, psychologically repeatedly until she totally gave up on life.  She felt that she was already dead, so the ability for her to respond at all, she was already numb.  It was very difficult.

Not only that, but they threatened to kill her.  At one point, they put a gun to her chest, asked her how she wanted to die and then pulled the trigger and the gun was empty.  Those are the types of things they did to her, so for 42 days, she suffered like that. 

DANIELS:  And I understand that she also thought that her family was being threatened, that her family would be harmed if she spoke out.  How real was that threat in her mind?

HILL:  Well it was very real.  After having the gun put to her and the trigger pulled and being told repeatedly that she would die and her family would die, having been all—I can't even imagine what went on inside of her.  She suffered horribly. 

DANIELS:  And most importantly, how is she doing today?  Is she OK? 

HILL:  You know I don't really know.  I can imagine she feels lucky to be alive.  That's what she told us.  She was happy to be rescued.  She was sobbing, but I do not know how she is today.  She's back with her family and we all of course wish her well and hope for a recovery, but it's going to be a long road for her I'm sure.

DANIELS:  Well we hope that she's doing OK after all that.  Obviously, it's going to be a long road ahead for her.  Excellent police work by all of you, Sergeant Andy Hill.  You must be very proud that you really stuck with it and went back to the house many times and finally found what you were looking for.  Thanks so much, Sergeant.

HILL:  You're welcome, Lisa.  I'm real proud of our officers. 

DANIELS:  You should be.

Now on to a trial in Florida that we've been following very closely, jurors in the Carlie Brucia murder case got a virtual tour of the crime scene today.  And they also got a first look at the 11-year-old's badly decomposed body days after she was sexually assaulted and killed.  You know the case well. 

Carlie was apparently walking home from a slumber party when she was allegedly abducted by a man wearing a mechanic's uniform, all of it caught on surveillance tape.  Florida prosecutors say that man is Joseph Smith.  That he abducted her, sexually assaulted her and then strangled her. 


DEBRA JOHNES RIVA, PROSECUTING JOSEPH SMITH:  The perpetrator stood behind her, positioned himself behind her, put that ligature around her neck and squeezed, squeezed until she stopped breathing, until her heart stopped, until she died. 


DANIELS:  Smith now faces the possibility of the death penalty and he sits in a Florida courtroom listening to all this evidence.  Prosecutors saying that prove his guilty today a series of “CSI” types of experts are testifying to that guilt about the physical evidence that places Carlie Brucia in the car that Smith was driving the day she vanished.


KAREN KORSBERG, FBI TRACE EVIDENCE EXPERT:  From vacuuming in the rear portion of the vehicle, I found a head hair that was consistent with originating from the victim.  There was another hair that exhibited all the same microscopic characteristics and was consistent with originating from the victim.  On seven different items within the vehicle, I found a reddish pink cotton fiber that was consistent with the reddish-pink cotton fibers that comprised the shirt, which was identified as coming from the victim. 


DANIELS:  And joining me now, Florida prosecutor Pam Bondi and Florida criminal defense attorney Michelle Suskauer.

Michelle, actually let's begin with you.  Here's what the prosecutor has in terms of evidence.  Two hairs consistent with Carlie's in that car, consistent with, not essentially hers, two hairs that can't be ruled out as Carlie's and seven fibers that are consistent with her shirt.  What do you do to explain away that DNA evidence?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, FLORIDA CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Well what this defense lawyer has to do which he is doing is trying to poke holes into all the state's case at what—not only what the police did in this case, but what the police didn't do in this case.  That yes, that may have been found, but the cross-examination is also going to show that these police officers, that they did not explore all the other options here. 

That they didn't go after who they should have gone after, is the person who lived where Carlie was sleeping over, a convicted felon, who allegedly talked to her about sex the night before, who looks like the gentleman on the video also.  He said this could have also been me.  His name is Choquette and they didn't follow up.  They didn't look in his car for fibers. 

DANIELS:  So Pam...

SUSKAUER:  ... so that's what they have to do in this case. 

DANIELS:  OK, so you just referred to Ronald Choquette and there's also John Smith's brother.  Pam, the defense is basically saying, police, you were so intent on nabbing this one guy, Joseph Smith that you didn't even follow through with all these other leads.  What does the prosecution have to do to rebut that? 

PAM BONDI, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR:  And typically, that is going to be the defense in a like this case because they don't have a lot else to work with, Lisa.  But what the prosecution does is they start out and they say, sure, everybody was a suspect to begin with.  Anybody who had contact with her and in the case of Choquette, what they did was they checked out his alibi. 

His alibi completely checked out.  Not only that, he didn't have tattoos on his arms and clearly, the person in the video has tattoos.  Not only that, everything else was leading them to Smith.  So I don't think they'll have a hard time combating that in the closing argument...

DANIELS:  Well—Pam, let me stick with you for a second because you've been in this business long enough to know that it seems like the defense is throwing everything against the wall and saying hey, we hope something sticks.  As a prosecutor, do you have to respond to every bit of that dirt being thrown or do you just say, hey, we're not even going to indulge in that.  Here's our theory.

BONDI:  I think in this case they're probably going to stick to their theory because their case is so strong.  And you know when defense attorneys do that in a case like this, it really doesn't bother you because you don't want to have to try the case twice.  You know 10 years from now or even five years from now, it'll be back on appeal saying that the defense attorney was incompetent because he didn't use a certain defense. 

So it's always good for the prosecutors when they do throw everything out there because in the long run, you want a clean trial.  You don't want to have to try it twice.  But I think in this case the prosecutors will just stick to the facts of their case and some of it, they're going to have to address.  Like the investigation, the DNA, the sufficiency of the DNA, but that's all just overwhelming evidence. 

DANIELS:  Michelle, if you represent Joseph Smith, at this point do you go to the prosecutors and say hey let's talk a little bit, maybe we can cut a deal here as you go on with the trial...


SUSKAUER:  You know the time to have done that and they weren't going to do that in this case because they want the death penalty in this case.  It's a very high profile case.  The time to have negotiated that was before.  They're not going to do this and this lawyer has to do everything that he possibly can ethically to represent his client. 

He's a zealous advocate.  So he needs to try to poke holes.  There's -

·         if he did anything less he has to try to save his client's life because he is going to get the death penalty if he's convicted in this case.  There's just no question about it.

DANIELS:  All right.  Pam Bondi and Michelle Suskauer, thanks so much for all those details and the insight, guys.  We appreciate it.

And coming up, some new details about the journalist police say dressed like a firefighter on Halloween, set a fire, all so that he could force his way into a woman's apartment where he sexually assaulted her for 12 hours.  Police need your help to find him. 

And you've seen the tape, “Dateline NBC” going undercover to catch potential pedophiles in action.  People who posed as sexual available teens helped get these guys caught on tape.  Tonight, what you can do to protect your kids.

And of course your e-mails, send them to abramsreport@msnbc.com.  Remember to include your name and where you're writing from.  We'll respond at the end of the show.


DANIELS:  New York police released three new photos of the suspect in the horrifying Halloween sex assault of a Manhattan woman.  The search does continue for Peter Braunstein, the man believed to have posed as a firefighter and forced himself into a 34-year-old woman's apartment, then sexually assaulting and terrorizing her for almost 14 hours. 

Joining me now with the latest, “New York Post” reporter, Brad Hamilton.  Thanks for joining us, Brad.  Obviously this is the story that everyone is talking about here in New York and it's spreading across the country.  What's the latest in terms of police finding this sick-o or whoever did it? 

BRAD HAMILTON, “NEW YORK POST”:  Well they're looking very hard for him in the city.  They don't believe he's gone outside of the city.  They are tracking his moves and they believe that he is reading everything about the case.  In fact, is watching and absorbing all the media coverage of this—in fact, he's probably watching this show right now. 

DANIELS:  Well that makes me sick.  That makes me—I mean to get this guy, though, you have to put his picture out, you have to talk about the case, so which way to go on this?  Are police trying to get his picture out?  Are they happy that we're doing shows like this? 

HAMILTON:  Well I think they are happy to get his picture out, certainly because that increases the chances that somebody might spot him on the street and turn him in.  They have followed several sightings.  They believe that—where people are calling in and saying, you know I think I saw this guy.  So that's valuable for them to have that information out. 

DANIELS:  Have you been contacted or your newspaper been contacted by any of them?

HAMILTON:  I have not, although we have reached out to him.  We have tried to contact him.  As you know, he's a journalist.  So there are plenty of people you know in this field who know him, who work with him or who know people who know him.

DANIELS:  So go back to that night that the victim was assaulted on Halloween night.  Tell us what police think he did. 

HAMILTON:  Well they believe that what happened, he gained access to this woman's apartment.  This is Halloween night.  He was dressed in a fireman's costume and set a couple of small fires in this woman's building.  She then answers the door when he knocks and says he's with the fire department. 

There's smoke in the building.  He needs to check her apartment.  She lets him in and that he knocks her out with chloroform and proceeds to sexually assault her over the next 12 ½ hours.

DANIELS:  Now the chloroform I know burns people.  Does she have scars on her face because of that?

HAMILTON:  Well she was treated in the hospital for some burns on her face, although I don't think it was something that was super serious.  Her injuries weren't life threatening or anything like that. 

DANIELS:  But it's more sick than that.  I mean from all the accounts it sounds like he put on shoes, various shoes, pairs of shoes on her. 

HAMILTON:  That's right. 

DANIELS:  And there's some type of relation between the shoes and a past humiliating incident involving her.  Do you know anything more about that?

HAMILTON:  I do as a matter of fact.  It turns out this man wasn't just a stranger.  He knew this woman.  They worked together at a fashion magazine called “Women's Wear Daily,” and he knew all kinds of details about her life, but they didn't have any dealings with each other when they worked at the same publication.

So during the course of this assault, it wasn't just a sexual attack, it was a profound psychological horror that he perpetrated on her.  The shoes that you refer to, there was a painful incident, humiliating incident for her involving the shoes and what he did was he actually took shoes from her closet, tried them on her feet, one by one and videotaped them, taunting her with the knowledge that he had about what happened with her and the shoes in the past. 

DANIELS:  So from your article it sounds like she's sort of going in and out of consciousness. 


DANIELS:  And when she gains consciousness, he is taunting her, saying hey, you've been laid off from your job and other incidents that you don't divulge in your newspaper.

HAMILTON:  That's right.  We're not divulging everything because you know we're hoping to protect the victim's identity.  We know her name, but we have not revealed that.  But yes, you're absolutely right.  You know it was a prolong sustained attack. 

At one point, he made her take a sleeping pill and he took one himself and laid down and slept near her or next to her.  But he was very, very smart about this as far as avoiding being detected.  He had latex gloves on.  He never really let her see his face and he cleaned up meticulously afterwards so as to not leave behind any of this forensic evidence that is so often collected by police.

DANIELS:  Well I hope police know more than that they're letting on and that this guy is caught.  Brad Hamilton thanks so much. 


DANIELS:  And joining me now, former FBI profiler Candice Delong. 

Candice, how do you describe this guy?  Is this guy a psychopath or what? 

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Well, a couple of things strike me about this particular assault.  This is very unusual as rapes go.  A lot of planning and a lot of things that you revealed in this that speak to a very, very long-standing fantasy.  The chloroform used to render someone helpless. 

The vast majority of rapists don't want the victim to be rendered helpless, especially unconscious.  So that particular thing is rare.  The extremely complex ruse that he went through to get her trust, to gain him access to her apartment, that was very, very important to him as part of the hunt. 

DANIELS:  I mean we're talking about special effects here, Candice. 


DANIELS:  He lit fires in the hallway, comes in...


DANIELS:  ... as a New York City firefighter...


DANIELS:  ... says let me in, I want to see what smoke damage is happening to your apartment...

DELONG:  Right.

DANIELS:  ... and then I think this is so sick.  He takes her shoes with him when he leaves the apartment.  I mean what does that indicate to you? 

DELONG:  Well, actually, a shoe fetish or a foot fetish is not an uncommon thing that we see in certain types of sexual assaults.  Some serial killers have had that in their past.  It's part of the whole fantasy.  This was extremely elaborate as things go and he spent a great deal of time with the victim. 

It's very difficult to spend that amount of time, 13, 14 hours in close contact with anyone and not leave some kind of evidence behind and so hopefully the police—of course they know who he is. 


DELONG:  Hopefully, they will be able to find something that can pin him to that location. 

DANIELS:  Everybody who knows this guy says that his ego is huge.  He loves to read stuff about him.  You just heard Brad saying that he could be watching this show as we speak. 


DANIELS:  I mean is that disgusting or are we helping the situation here?  Are we hurting the situation?  Is this massive ego going to finally get him messed up, tripped up so that he actually turns himself in?

DELONG:  Well I don't know about him turning himself in.  That would surprise me.  But the massive ego, that's something that is commonly seen in many, many criminals of a particular nature and they for the most part, believe they're not going to get caught.  It wouldn't surprise me to know that he's flipping channels and watching to see how many news entities are carrying his story. 

However, you asked me if it was good or bad.  Should—yes, I think it is good because this case has now become national.  And people will be talking about it in Los Angeles and Seattle tomorrow as much as they're talking about it in New York.  When cases become that high profile, the offender is usually identified by someone and apprehended in not years from now, weeks, if not days.

DANIELS:  But a lot of criminals with huge egos, as you know, end up making a mistake. 

DELONG:  Sure.

DANIELS:  Do you think that we're going to see something like this happening here? 

DELONG:  I think he's already made a lot of mistakes and I think he made a tremendous mistake by spending so much time with one victim in one place.

DANIELS:  All right.  Candice Delong thanks so much for all that insight.  We appreciate it so much.

DELONG:  You're welcome.

DANIELS:  And coming up, more of “Dateline NBC's” undercover operation.  You'll see the reporter Chris Hansen confronting potential pedophiles when they show up to meet what they thought were sexually available teens they had met online.  Now we're going to tell you how to protect your kids from people like this.

And our continuing series, “Manhunt: Sex Offenders on the Loose”, our effort to find missing sex offenders before they strike again.  Our search today continues in Florida.

Authorities are looking for this guy, Robert Grundmann.  He's 29, six-foot tall, weighs 242 pounds.  Grundmann was convicted of sexual battery with a weapon and has absconded from probation.

If you've got some info on this guy, please contact the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Sexual Offender Predator Unit.  There's the number, 888-357-7332.

We'll be right back.


DANIELS:  Coming up, “Dateline NBC” goes undercover to track potential sex offenders online.  What can you do to protect your kids?  But first the headlines.


DANIELS:  And we're back with more on a disturbing story we've been following closely on our program.  We first brought it to you last Friday when we showed you part of a “Dateline NBC” hidden camera investigation.  “Dateline's” Chris Hansen followed Perverted-Justice, an online vigilante group, as they found some potential online predators by renting a house, wiring it with cameras and having volunteers pose as 12, 13, and 14-year-old kids in chat rooms waiting for solicitations for sex.

Almost 20 men showed up for what they thought would be an encounter with a sexually available child.  Most of the men said they had never done anything like this before.  They denied being there for sex with a child.  But most stayed and talked to Chris. 

Here's more of that undercover sting and what you'll see is that a lot of these men are some of the last people that you'd ever expect to be online predators. 


CHRIS HANSEN, “DATELINE NBC” (voice-over):  Surprisingly, there were many men with impressive resumes.  Men you would consider trustworthy.  You'll never guess what this man, screen name “Gbabbnsp” does for a living. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Come on in.  I just spilled diet coke all over my shorts.

HANSEN:  He's an emergency room doctor. 


HANSEN:  Dr. Jeffery Bach (ph), a 50-year-old, is here to meet a boy he thinks is 14. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I'll be right back down there.  (INAUDIBLE)

HANSEN:  Watch how he tries to follow our decoy upstairs. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I can come up if you want.

HANSEN:  When I confront the doctor, he says he had no intention of having sex with the boy.  He only came here because he felt badly for the teen who was left home alone. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He was anxious to have some company when he was left by himself for four days and under the circumstances, it sounded neglectful. 

HANSEN (on camera):  So you're the Good Samaritan. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  That's correct. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  During his online chat, the doctor was not as sexually expletive as many of the others who showed up.  In fact, after we read to you part of the chat, you'll see he seemed to choose his words carefully. 

GBABBNSP:  I'd like very much to be your friend.  I don't think I even want to have sex with you until you're old enough for both of us not to get in trouble over it.  Lots more to friendship than sex for sure.

JAY:  I would not tell.  I done it before.

GBABBNSP:  Once we know each other well, whatever happens, happens, but I won't meet you for sex. 

HANSEN:  But he does suggest getting physical.  After talking about covering the teen with hugs and kisses, the 50-year-old says to the decoy who he thinks is 14, I want to cuddle you and make you feel safe and loved and cared about.

(on camera):  Experts in this field say that kind of a discussion is consistent with somebody who's grooming a young boy for sex.  You see what I'm getting at.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  (INAUDIBLE) HANSEN:  What's really going on here? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  What's really going on is I came over to take him out for lunch. 

HANSEN:  You asked, have you ever been spanked.  He says, by my dad, but not for sex. 


HANSEN:  You say, could it be fun for sex.  He says I can try.  You say, want to spank a dad.  Now, you see how that looks. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, it looks pretty bad. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  The doctor maintains he would never do anything illegal, but acknowledges a meeting like this could appear inappropriate. 

(on camera):  Now, if you had a teenage son who was home alone, would you be comfortable with a 50-something-year-old man coming into the house for a visit?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I suppose it would depend on the 50-year-old man, but in general, no, I wouldn't.

HANSEN:  How are you doing?UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  How are you doing?

HANSEN:  Why don't you have a seat right around that (INAUDIBLE)? 

What's happening?


HANSEN:  What are you here for? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Just coming to talk to him. 

HANSEN:  Coming to talk to who?


HANSEN:  Why are you so nervous?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I just get nervous.  I was going to talk to Erin. 

HANSEN:  How old is Erin? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She didn't tell me.

HANSEN:  Try again.


HANSEN:  So you thought it was OK to come here to see a 14-year-old girl?


HANSEN:  And you say would you ever try anal?  Ouch (INAUDIBLE) it could hurt.  (INAUDIBLE) done right.  You have to be very gentle with that.  Quite a Romeo. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I'm a lonely guy.  What can I say?

HANSEN (voice-over):  He's more than just a lonely guy.  We did a background check on Vamail (ph) and it turns out his real name is Joe Wunderler (ph), an Army sergeant stationed at Fort Belvoir at the Intelligence and Security Command.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I've never done anything.  (INAUDIBLE) get help with it.

HANSEN (on camera):  What are you doing to get help? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Seeing a psychiatrist right now. 

HANSEN:  Well, it doesn't look like it's working too well based upon all this. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I just started talking to him. 

HANSEN:  This gets pretty freaky here.  You talk about sex acts with a dog. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It's one of the reasons why I'm trying to get help.  Because I get into fetishes that I—that I know aren't right. 

HANSEN:  I guess you're going to tell me next that this is the very first time you've done something like this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Actually, it is.  I'm serious. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  True or not, remember this guy tried to entice a young teen into depraved sex acts.  It only takes one encounter to harm a child forever.  Here comes SpecialGuy29.  Earlier online, he told our decoy who was posing as a 14-year-old boy that he's an 11th grade English teacher.  Then he told the boy that he hates condoms, but he's safe.

Our decoy asked SpecialGuy29 to bring beer and then (INAUDIBLE) a request, a technique often used by law enforcement to illustrate intent.  He (INAUDIBLE) side garage is open.  Strip to your underwear and come in.  I'd be in mine.  The man says, I don't wear underwear.  So the decoy says then come in naked. 

We never thought he'd really do it.  But we were wrong.  After casing our house, walking up and down the street, here he comes with the beer.  And you can guess what he does in the garage. 

HANSEN (on camera):  Could you explain yourself? 


HANSEN:  Why don't you go ahead and cover up. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Certainly.  I'm sorry. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  The man's name is John Kinelli (ph).  He tells me he's 29 and a bus driver.  Then he changes it to a teacher. 

HANSEN (on camera):  What kind of conduct is this for a high school teacher? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  (INAUDIBLE) done this before. 

HANSEN:  So you just woke up this morning and said I'm going to get involved in an Internet conversation with a 14-year-old boy, I'm going to go to his house, strip naked and walk in with a 12 pack of beer. 


HANSEN:  What would have happened, John, if I wasn't here? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I probably would have chickened out, sir. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  After doing a deeper background check on him, we find out he's neither a teacher nor a bus driver.  His father says he's unemployed.  And he's not 29.  He's actually 43.

(on camera):  Do you know that it's illegal to have a conversation on the Internet with the intent to have sex with a minor? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, sir, I did. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  He says he knows it's illegal.  But it appears that's not enough to deter him.  Whether he needs psychiatric help or the hand of the law, he still might pose a threat to a child.  You might think that this 43-year-old man who walked into our house naked, ready to meet a 14-year-old boy for sex would be so humiliated after being caught literally with his pants down, that he'd never try it again.  Yet, we find him right back online, in a chat room, the very next day.

(on camera):  How can we be certain that this guy in this chat room is the same guy who walked into this house last night naked? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It's the same screen name...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Same identical screen name he got busted on, SpecialGuy29.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  He's changed nothing. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  He's spotted by a Perverted-Justice volunteer who's posing as a 13-year-old boy. 


HANSEN:  Even these Perverted-Justice veterans find what's happening hard to believe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It's shocking and that's just going to be beyond comprehension. 

HANSEN:  Yet, he does keep talking.  And again, the chat quickly turns sexual and believe it or not, again, he agrees to yet another date for sex.  Our decoy asks if he wants to meet at McDonald's. 

(on camera):  What do you suppose the odds are that a guy like that would agree to another meeting? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I would have said zero last night after watching what happened.

HANSEN (voice-over):  Well SpecialGuy29 defies the odds and agrees to meet.  But first he confirms the meeting is not about food. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He really wanted to make sure it was about sex. 

HANSEN:  Sure enough, here he comes, headed towards the McDonald's. 

(on camera):  I have been in television for 24 years. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I just came to get something to eat. 

HANSEN:  And I have very seldom been at a loss for words. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Sir, I just came to get something to eat. 

HANSEN:  But I don't know even know what to ask you first. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I just came to get something to eat. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  He later changes his story. 

(on camera):  Last night, you walked into a house, in suburban Washington, naked with a 12 pack of beer.  Yes or no? 


HANSEN:  Today, you're on the Internet again.  You have an inappropriate conversation with a boy you think is 13 and you set up a meeting here at this fast food restaurant.  What was your intention? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I don't know. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  The man admits, he knows what he's doing is illegal. 

(on camera):  Then why do you do it? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  But I need help and that's why I'm seeing a psychiatrist for.

HANSEN (voice-over):  As incredible as this looks that a man would do this twice in two days, Lieutenant Jacoby isn't all that surprised. 

(on camera):  Don't these people know that this is illegal and that very possibly they could be talking to a decoy or getting pulled into some sort of undercover investigation? 

LT. JAKE JACOBY, FAIRFAX CTY., VA POLICE DEPT.:  Well if look at the incident and the amount of people who are soliciting these types of crimes, your chances of getting caught are probably fairly slim. 


DANIELS:  That was “Dateline's” Chris Hansen reporting.

Coming up, what can you do to protect your kids when they log?  And a little bit later, my “Closing Argument”, even though CEOs of various (INAUDIBLE) oil companies testified yesterday on the Hill about their huge profits.  I'm still wondering why am I paying 50 bucks to fill up my car. 

And your e-mails, send them to abramsreport@msnbc.com.  Remember to include your name and where you're writing from and we're going to respond at the end of the show.


DANIELS:  And welcome back.  We've shown you how easy it happens.  Adults tracking down young kids in Internet chat rooms, setting up meetings with them with the intent of partaking in some sort of a sexual encounter.  Now, what can parents do to protect their children?

Joining me now, Donna Rice Hughes is the president of Enough is Enough, an organization whose mission is to protect kids from Internet pornography and sex predators.  Thanks so much, Donna, for coming on the show.  We appreciate it so much.


DANIELS:  So as parents, you look at the “Dateline” piece and you just have this pit in your stomach.  You know...


DANIELS:  ... there's a problem out there, but what are you supposed to tell your kids? 

HUGHES:  Well, I mean the first thing is to have communication with your kids about the good side of the Internet as well as the downside and parents can't have that communication unless they themselves understand what the dangers are. 

DANIELS:  Do you think that most parents do understand the potential dangers of being on the Internet for their kids...

HUGHES:  No, Lisa.  I am convinced after 12 years of doing this, that they do not understand.  When the child has access to the Internet, they have access to all of the good and all of the bad.  And all of the good people and all of the bad information out there also have access to your children.  So parents really have to be very diligent. 

And as I speak around the country to audiences of parents, what I find is that offer times, they will come to here about Internet safety, thinking that they understand the dangers and then once we really go through how the pornographer actually looks for the child and how sexual predators seek out unsuspecting kids and just even how the most diligent child who is even attempting to protect themselves can still fall into these kinds of traps.  Then they really start to understand how dangerous it is and how proactive they as the parent need to be. 

DANIELS:  OK.  So let's get to some of the tips.  Kickoff a couple of tips that parents can use because it's just overwhelming as parents.  They watch shows like this...


DANIELS:  ... and there's one segment where like parents have to watch out for this.  Parents have to watch out for this. 

HUGHES:  Is a lot.

DANIELS:  There are so many dangers that parents have to watch out for.

HUGHES:  It is.

DANIELS:  Let's get to the bottom reality.  What can they do? 

HUGHES:  Well let's make it real simple.  Safety rules and software tools.  We call it rules and tools.  You need both.  Parents must implement safety rules around their kids' use of the Internet and we have all of this at our Web site to protect kids.  One of the things parents need to do is know what their kids are doing online. 

Know their friends, who they're interacting with.  About 30 percent of parents aren't doing that.  The other is to have software tools in place, some type of filtering and some type of monitoring.  These tools are very sophisticated now.  They will actually allow a parent to be able to set the time limits that their kids are online and also do things that are very important like block chat room and limit instant messaging and they'll also screen out a lot of this pornography. 

So—but let me just say right now is the number one cardinal rule, do not let your children go into chat rooms.  There is no such thing as a safe chat room.  These predators disguise themselves often times in these chat room.  Now you didn't see this in the “Dateline” piece because they were very overt about their sexual intentions, but that's not always the case.  Even if they're disguising themselves, a human monitor and a monitor chat room can't pick up a disguised predator, so there's no reason a child should ever be in a chat room.  They're just too dangerous.

DANIELS:  Well I hope parents take away those tips because they're very good.  Of course, you can't monitor your kids all the time.  But you can certainly talk about it and implement those safety tips.  Thanks so much, Donna...


HUGHES:  Thank you.

DANIELS:  Thanks for making it simple.  We appreciate it. 

And coming up, why didn't oil execs have any answers on the hard questions about their record profits during yesterday's Senate hearing.  Maybe because the senators didn't ask them.  That's my “Closing Argument”. 

And our continuing series, “Manhunt: Sex Offenders on the Loose”, our effort to find missing sex offenders before they strike again.  Today we continue helping Florida. 

The state looking for Johnny Sadler.  He's 32 years old, 5'7”, weighs 170 pounds.  Sadler was convicted of lewd and other acts on a child under 16.  He has avoided probation.  If you've got some info on his whereabouts, do call the Florida Department of Law Enforcement of Sexual Offenders and Predators Unit.  There's the number, 888-357-7332. 

We'll be right back.


DANIELS:  Now my “Closing Argument” tonight.  It's more of a question.  Can somebody please explain to me what was accomplished in yesterday's Senate hearing about sky rocketing oil prices?  Did our senators get any closer to figuring out why oil companies raked in $33 billion last quarter while we were all paying 50 bucks for one tank of gas?  I didn't hear any answers. 

Here's what happened.  I thought it was a joke.  Executives from five big oil companies appeared on Capitol Hill to explain themselves.  I guess technically it was an official Senate hearing, but it looked to me like more—like a P.R. stunt than anything else.  The executives weren't forced to take an oath.  The media and the public were kept out of the hearing room until the executives had already sat down.

God forbid, the press would disturb the executives by snapping their pictures as they entered the room.  Then our senators spent very little time focusing on what I thought was the most obvious question like why is it that you got rich while the rest of us were shelling out big bucks to pay for a gallon of gas?  Here's what I heard.  Senators asking a fair number of questions about their projects back in their home states.  I guess they want some votes. 

Finally, when one senator managed to ask a pointed, relevant question, the executives' answers, I thought they were pathetic.  There were no apologies.  Just a lot of economic mumbo jumbo about supply and demand, the global commodities market, how all their profits go into expanding existing oil refineries, whatever.  I didn't hear a single answer that really truly explained why we're suffering while they get rich. 

They've got billions of dollars sitting around in cash but are full of excuses about why they're not building more oil refineries.  Now, to be fair, the executive did talk about their efforts to increase energy supplies and promote conservation measures, which of course, is great.  But that doesn't answer my question.  I want to know what's going to happen at the gas pump over the next few months.  And yes, whether it's going to get even worse as we head into winter and people have to heat their homes. 

The Senate majority leader, Bill Frist, did manage to state that he didn't think the executives had—quote—“adequately explained how the high cost of gas was justified” and he promised to—quote—“act swiftly if he determines there was any price gouging.”  Well then go back and get some real answers.  Right now, it looks like the Federal Trade Commission is really the only government agency conducting a legitimate investigation into whether price gouging actually occurred. 

I'm just saying the next time around, how about making those oil big rigs swear to tell the truth.  What happened to the oath?  I just think shame on the senators for taking the oil execs at their word, their very ambiguous dodgy entirely evasive word.  Look, the bottom line is the price of oil affects almost everybody.  I think we deserve to get some real answers. 

Coming up, a lot of you still writing in about the Alabama governor's decision to boycott Aruba because of the Natalee Holloway case.  Your e-mails will be next.


DANIELS:  And welcome back.  I've had my say, now it's time for “Your Rebuttal”.  We're still getting a lot of e-mails on both sides to the decision by Alabama's governor to call for a boycott of Aruba until officials there do more to help find missing teen Natalee Holloway. 

Nineteen-year-old Boston College sophomore Katie Chipman vacationed in Aruba weeks before Natalee disappeared and she writes in—quote—“I am infuriated by those who believe that the general population of Aruba must suffer from some girl's carelessness in a foreign country.  In my opinion and from my own experiences, I believe that Aruba is much safer than even Boston where I live.  My friends and I watched out for each other and did not take advantage of the 18-year-old drinking age to become so inebriated that we would allow ourselves or one of our friends to leave without—with a local whom we did not know.”

Just a quick response, Katie.  I'm fine with you not supporting the boycott, but don't blame the victim for her fate.  That is totally unfair.  You're acting like she deserved what happened to her. 

Here's one from Kelly on another viewer's e-mail stating she is taking her family to Aruba because of the boycott.  Quote—“I can't believe that an American, much less someone who sounds like a parent, would say that they were going to plan a trip to Aruba just because of the boycott.  The least they could do is honor the memory of a child that has been lost in another country and that the parents of that child is asking for your help in a very small way and hit the Aruba officials where it's going to hurt them, the pocketbook.”

Make sure you send your e-mails to the abramsreport—one word—

@msnbc.com.  We're going to go through them and read them always at the end of the show. 

Thanks so much for joining us.  Always write in.  We want to hear from you. 

That's going to do us—that's going to do it for us tonight.  That's what I'm trying to say.  Coming up next, “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews.  Have a great night, everybody.



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