Guests Ray Poole, Vito Colucci, Tom Mannon, Brett Lovelace, Jeffrey Gardere, Steve Huff, T.J. Ward, Wendy Murphy, Geoffrey Fieger, TJ Ward, Alan Newman, Glennda Newman, Mandy Davis, Susan Buxton, Joe Loya, Stephen Simpson
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Tonight: The prime suspect‘s father in the Natalee Holloway case is off the hook, but we‘ll have an investigator on with some new details who says that father should not be cleared so soon. And shocking new video of one of the tornadoes that tore through the Midwest. You‘re going meet someone who faced the storm with a camera rolling.
But first, the story of a secret love affair between two teenagers and a brutal double homicide. Tonight, 18-year-old David Ludwig is in custody, suspected of killing 14-year-old Kara Borden‘s parents over the weekend in Pennsylvania. Ludwig was captured by police this morning in Indiana with Borden in his car after a high-speed police pursuit. MSNBC‘s Contessa Brewer has the very latest from Pennsylvania. Contessa, bring us up to speed.
CONTESSA BREWER, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Rita, it is no wonder that in a place like this, a double murder makes front page news. After all, we‘re right smack in the middle of Pennsylvania Dutch country. We‘re in a place of antique shops, a place where kids who are home schooled get together and they play soccer. Well, that‘s how friends say 14-year-old Kara Borden and 18-year-old David Ludwig met each other, through this home schoolers network of sorts.
But Kara‘s parents, Michael and Catherine Borden, disapproved of their blossoming relationship. Friends say those two teens started seeing each other secretly. It all came to a head this past Sunday, when the Bordens began arguing with their daughter, Kara, about a missed curfew. And when her boyfriend, David Ludwig, came over, things escalated.
An younger daughter in the household told police she saw David Ludwig pull a handgun and shoot her father in the head. That daughter ran to the bathroom and heard another shot, the shot that apparently killed her mother, as well. At that point, David Ludwig apparently began screaming Kara‘s name, and the two left in his Jetta. The 9-year-old brother in the household ran to a next-door neighbor‘s to call 911.
So at this point, police consider Kara kidnapped, and they put out a nationwide Amber Alert. Some 30 hours later, 600 miles away, across two state lines, a police trooper in Indiana spots that red Jetta on I-70, and they try to pull over David Ludwig. He leads them on a high-speed chase, up to 95 miles per hour, at some point. They say he was driving dangerously, often on other sides of the road, in fact. That whole chase ended when David Ludwig crashed into a tree.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID COX, INDIANA STATE TROOPER: I pulled him from the car. There was some slight resistance, but that was it. She exited the vehicle and was frantic. She was just frantic, crying, screaming. That‘s about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BREWER: So back here in Warwick Township, the big questions remain. Was Kara Borden a part of this? Was she a victim or a suspect? Did David Ludwig plan these murders in advance? And perhaps, Rita, the most tragic question of all, what now becomes of these five Borden children who are left parentless?
COSBY: Such a sad story. You know, Contessa, is there any prior record with either of these kids, any trouble with them before?
BREWER: No. In fact, police say they don‘t have any record of David Ludwig getting in trouble, although he said on a personal Web site that he excelled in getting in trouble. He talks about playing these fake air gun games. Meanwhile, Kara Borden also keeps her own Web site, and she talks about Christianity and her faith in God, and she always signs off with her friends, God bless you. Really amazing to this community. I talked to some kids who know Kara Borden, they say it‘s just unbelievable that this could happen in their town, Rita.
COSBY: It is incredible. Please keep us posted, Contessa.
(INAUDIBLE) more, come back to us later on in the show.
And Indiana police said that they were able to catch the teenagers because their communication system worked. Joining me now on the phone is Sergeant Ray Poole with the Indiana State Police department. Sergeant, what was the tip that sort of broke this?
SGT. RAY POOLE, INDIANA STATE POLICE: Well, believe it or not, Rita, it was observant people. We had Amber Alert information going out through the local radio stations, of course, because the vehicle had been spotted in Indiana. They came into the state, we think, near the Fort Wayne area, which is about an hour-and-a-half northeast of Indianapolis, which is on the northeast side of the state of Indiana. And we had different spots where people have located that car and thought they saw the two individuals in the state of Indiana.
COSBY: And Sergeant Poole, I understand even a trooper saw them on the highway finally, is that right?
POOLE: Yes, ma‘am. What happened is an off-duty trooper thought the car had passed him, so he radioed in to our dispatchers, and they put the information out that he was in the Belleville area, which is approximately 25 to 30 miles west of Indianapolis. And Trooper Cox happened to see the car going right past him on I-70 going west and gave chase to him, him and Trooper Furnace (ph).
And at that point, the individual obviously—Ludwig did not know where he was going, so he exited off the interstate onto a state road, and basically, from some of the video that you‘ve shown, he tried to straighten out a curve, as we say, and he went straight into a tree.
COSBY: Yes, we can see some pictures of the car. It was the red car that you saw crashed into the tree. Sergeant, real quick, do we know what Kara Borden, what role she played? Was she an innocent victim? Was she part of the hostage-taking? I understand you‘re not able to question her, is that right?
POOLE: Absolutely because in the state of Indiana, and that‘s probably anywhere in the country, you can‘t talk to a minor and—without their parent or a guardian. And obviously, she does not have any parents anymore, which is unfortunate. But she—we have to wait until the authorities from Pennsylvania come out and talk with her and—with a guardian and they can see what role she‘s played. But right, all we are doing with it in the state of Indiana is what they—what crimes they committed here, and not what they‘ve done in Pennsylvania.
COSBY: All right, sir. If you can hang with us, I want to bring in -
because, of course, the big question tonight, Was Kara Borden purely a victim, or could she have been on this horrible crime?
Joining me now is seasoned investigator Vito Colucci. Vito, what do you think, you know? And how could you—how can this be determined if they can‘t question her?
VITO COLUCCI, INVESTIGATOR: Well, the laws in Pennsylvania—I did some research today. I called some contacts in Pennsylvania. And basically, the law is different from state to state. In Pennsylvania, they can talk to her if they‘re just talking to her as a victim of a crime. But if she starts to implicate herself, or as a investigator, you start asking a leading question, you got big problems. So I‘m sure what they‘re going to do is whether she has an older sister, older brother or an aunt, someone has to be appointed guardian, and then they‘ll take it from there.
COSBY: I would imagine that they‘re going to screen (ph) them because, in fact, we know that the sister, the brother—there‘s, what, a 13-year-old, I think, sister. There‘s a 9-year-old brother—that they were present, and at least one of them heard, Come on, Kara, Come on. Come on.
COLUCCI: Yes, that‘s going to be key. The million-dollar question, though, all across this country—I‘ve been doing some of these shows, and everybody wants to know what this girl‘s involvement. And I think over the next 24, 48 hours, we‘re going to see that. I feel, Rita, that she had some kind of involvement in this.
COSBY: Do you think she‘ll crack, Vito, if she did have something to do with it...
COLUCCI: Oh, without a doubt.
COSBY: ... a 14-year-old kid...
COLUCCI: Without a doubt. You know, when you‘re a seasoned investigator, you‘re going to talk to this girl. She‘s already been crying hysterics, OK? Thank God, she could have got killed. This car‘s going 95 miles an hour, crashes into a tree. OK, she‘s alive, and the subject‘s still alive, OK? So that‘s—that‘s the main thing here. But she will crack. It will not take them a long time to get to the bottom of this story, Rita, I guarantee you that.
COSBY: No, it doesn‘t sound like it.
Let me go back real quick, if we have, the sergeant‘s here with us.
Sergeant, what do we know about their background? There‘s no prior, right? I mean, in fact, they seem like a very religious—both of them, based on some of their Internet blogs.
POOLE: Well, obviously, we don‘t know anything about them. You know, we just come across the individuals today. So what the folks in Pennsylvania are saying, you know, what I‘m hearing from the news reports from all over, that, yes (ph). So I cannot answer to what they are like and their personalities. But you know, when we come across them here, the young man, he resisted a smidgen, but he quickly gave in. And the young girl, she was crying. When I come to the scene, she was crying. She looked like your typical 14-year-old girl with braces in her mouth. I mean, had braces on her teeth and the whole bit. So you‘re looking at her and you‘re thinking, No, what are these two kids thinking? And he‘s not a kid because he‘s 18. And you just don‘t understand what their mindset was of what happened.
COSBY: It is stunning. Sergeant, thank you very much. Vito, if you could stick with us, because I want to get into more of sort of the mindset. What kind of a person is Kara Beth Borden?
Let‘s bring in, if we could, Tom Mannon. He‘s a neighbor and also a family friend of the Borden family. Mr. Mannon, I understand your daughter knew some of these folks, particularly Kara Borden, pretty well. Describe for us sort of what she knew about the relationship that Kara had with this boy.
TOM MANNON, NEIGHBOR AND BORDEN FAMILY FRIEND: Well, what my daughter relayed to me was that she was aware of the fact that Kara Borden had a relationship with a boy that was unapproved-of by both sets of parents, and that‘s pretty much the extent of it.
COSBY: Mr. Mannon, was it—was there the issue of the curfew, as we‘ve been sort of hearing, sort of the root of it? Do you know what sort of caused these objections?
MANNON: I think that‘s correct. I think there was a curfew issue, and that, you know, precipitated the confrontation in the morning.
COSBY: Have you heard that the—that, you know, the parents were just frustrated? Obviously, there‘s a big age different. It‘s a bit distinction between 14 and 18.
MANNON: I would agree with that. And no doubt that that was a big part of the conflict itself.
COSBY: You know, what kind of person—I want to show—this is some of the comments from their blogs. It‘s pretty interesting. These are the comments between Kara and also David Ludwig. They both seem—it‘s eerie because they both seem quite religious, particularly Kara. And I want to show some of the things—these are interests. These are some of the things she likes. It says, “Jesus, church, my youth group, other youth groups, family, friends, my doggie, kids,” the list goes on and on.
What kind of a person is 14-year-old Kara?
MANNON: Well, she‘s a great girl that we‘ve known for a while, and she grew up in a great neighborhood that we have. The neighborhood, quite honestly, is growing weary already of all the attention. We‘re trying to get our privacy back. And we know each other. We‘re just trying to put our current focus on respect for the victims and the families in the tragedy. But you know, Kara was obviously at the forefront of all of this, and we just hope that she comes out of this OK.
COSBY: Yes, was there any tension between her and her parents that you know of? You know, was there anything that would have precipitated whatever role she played here?
MANNON: Well, I would have to think there was. You know, how it escalated, I‘m not privy to, so I don‘t want to, you know, make any statements on that. But it climaxed this weekend and, you know, with very tragic results, obviously.
COSBY: (INAUDIBLE) Mr. Mannon, please stay with us, if you could, because I want to bring in and get some more community reactions. You said everybody there, I‘m sure they‘re devastated. What were these kids doing? Where are they from? And how disrupting is this for the surrounding area?
Joining me now from Pennsylvania is a local journalist, Brett Lovelace. Brett is with the—he‘s a police reporter with “The Intelligencer Journal” newspaper in that area.
Brett, what‘s the reaction from the community? And put it in perspective. We‘ve been hearing all these reports that it might be an Amish community or near an Amish community?
BRETT LOVELACE, “THE INTELLIGENCER JOURNAL”: This is a very suburban community, Rita. It‘s well outside of Lancaster city. It‘s a mixture of subdivision and rural farm fields. There are—there is a Mennonite population here that resides. And it‘s a very conservative, very conservative, faith-based community.
COSBY: How has this affected them?
LOVELACE: Well, I think everyone is very, very appalled at the cold-blooded nature of this. I mean, for an 18-year-old who seemed to fit in with everything in community, seemed to subscribe to the way of life here, to march into his girlfriend‘s parents‘ house and gun them down in cold blood—it‘s stunning.
COSBY: What—how strict are the lifestyles there? Is everybody religious, as someone who‘s not an outcast?
LOVELACE: Well, in this community, church is a very big focal point
of most families, and especially in this part of Warwick Township,
Lancaster County. Most families in that neighborhood where the shooting
took place were ready to go to church on Sunday morning when police cars,
SWAT team officers showed up and just took over the neighborhood. It was -
it was a very odd sight.
COSBY: I‘m sure. Do we still have—if we still have Vito Colucci -
I want to go back to Vito because, you know, what do you think happened in this case? You know, we were also reading a report that the housekeeper for Kara Borden told someone and said basically that Kara‘s mother was worried that her daughter was, quote, “boy crazy.” Do you—what‘s your gut of sort of what went on?
COLUCCI: Well, Rita, you‘ve met some of my daughters. I have four daughters. They‘re older now. But you know, this is a 14-year-old girl. Whether she‘s a church-going girl or not, she‘s 14. She meets an 18-year-old. He takes advantage of her in numerous ways, let‘s say. And he proceeds to come over the house, and he‘s going to take charge of all these problems in her life, OK? He‘s going to take her away from this, with a gun, 95 miles an hour, as we heard today in the news conference, getting people off the road, people going into ditches and everything as he‘s driving on the wrong side of the road. That‘s what happened here. She‘s a normal 14-year-old girl that has fallen head over heels, in her mind, about this.
COSBY: And let‘s hope she didn‘t played a role in this. Vito, thank you. And everybody else, thank you very much.
And when we come back, teenagers who turn to murder and mayhem against their own parents. If this kid is guilty, he‘s going to join a long list of violent teens. And again, what role did she play? That‘s coming up, and it‘s just the beginning of the show. Let‘s take a look at what‘s ahead.
Still ahead, tornado terror caught on tape. The pictures are amazing, and so is the story of people holding onto that videocamera. Why did they do it? They‘ll join me live.
And after a court lets the father of the prime suspect in the Natalee Holloway case off the hook, does that mean his son will get to same treatment?
Plus: Granny get your gun. An intruder apparently picked the wrong house to break into. You‘ll hear the frantic 911 call as a gun-slinging grandmother pulls the trigger. It‘s coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TOTARO, DISTRICT ATTORNEY: We have every reason to believe, at this point in time, with the evidence through the course of investigation, this was premeditated, deliberate, intentional. And as such, it would be, with a first agree murder conviction, life in prison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And we turn now back to our top story, two lovesick teens caught by police. Eighteen-year-old David Ludwig is suspected of shooting 14-year-old Kara Borden‘s parents to death, and he was captured after a high-speed chase earlier today.
But what‘s the real story behind the headlines? What makes teens go bad? And what happened in this case? Joining us now are crime blogger Steven Huff of Planethuff.com, and also clinical psychologist Jeffrey Gardere, and also still with us is private investigator Vito Colucci.
Jeffrey, let me start with you because this kid brings over—he‘s 18 years old. We heard doesn‘t seem like any prior violence in his background, that we know of, at least so far. Comes over with a loaded gun. What kind of a kid would do this?
DR. JEFFREY GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, we‘re talking about
and Rita, you hit on this earlier. This is a situation where this may be a very strict religious community, and quite often in these communities
and by the way, there‘s nothing wrong with these communities, but what tends to happen is if a child has an issue or has some problems as far as rebellion, then that child basically is clamped down. If there are issues as far as mental health problems or conflicts, then quite often, these communities say, Well, let‘s pray for these individuals. God will heal them. So too often, we don‘t pay attention to what‘s happening with any sort of mental instability or teen rebellion that may lead to some sort of violence or murderous rampage.
COSBY: You know, you‘re missing maybe some of the warning signs. You know, Steve Huff, you‘ve been monitoring these Web sites. You do a great job of it, looking at them all the time. Is there anything we can read? You know, on one of his Web sites, I saw a lot of religious inferences, but then he also talks about, what, gutting a deer?
STEVE HUFF, PLANETHUFF.COM: Yes. He had a picture, an image host site, Picturetrail.com, and there are two sets of albums on the image host. One of them is his hunting trip from 2004 it looks like he took with some friends. And one of them was a picture that just kind of struck me not funny, strange, of him gutting a deer or in the process of dressing a deer‘s carcass. And he turns around, he‘s got this huge really kind of happy-go-lucky grin on his face.
COSBY: Yes, which is a very strange—and did that—obviously—and he also says, Steve, that he likes, quote, “getting in trouble.”
HUFF: That—he said that was his expertise.
COSBY: Which is, you know, now, obviously, sadly ironic.
HUFF: Yes, very sadly ironic.
COSBY: You know, Vito, what can you read into this? You know—you know, what Steve‘s saying about gutting a deer, and now, I like getting into trouble—there‘s obviously a little bit of a wild, crazy side to this religious kid.
COLUCCI: Definitely. I can guarantee you, Rita, we‘re going to see a lot of stuff over the next several days about this kid‘s background, different instances, like was just brought out now. To say you like getting in trouble, you show up with a gun—I mean, these are bad, bad signs, Rita, very, very bad. He got himself in big trouble, very big, the biggest trouble he can get into.
COSBY: Boy, did he ever. You know, Jeffrey Gardere, you know, does this seem like sort of a Romeo and Juliet romance, 14-year-old kid, sounds like got in a fight over the curfew, he didn‘t like it, shows up with a gun, sort of, like, you know, torrid lovers?
GARDERE: Yes. Absolutely. But I think we should pay attention to the fact that from everything we know about this kid and the fact that, allegedly, he shot the two parents of this girl, it tells me that this is a very disturbed individual, has very violent traits that no one was really paying attention to.
But I think there is some implication on the part of Kara herself because there was sort of like a Romeo and Juliet situation. And perhaps this is something that just got out of control. She was in a relationship with someone who had some severe emotional issues, and perhaps she fed into that because she had some of her own issues, too.
COSBY: You know, Steve, what do you—what do we know from Kara from reading her blog?
HUFF: Hers are a bit more of a puzzle because on the surface, it‘s what several people have pointed out already, I mean, she seems like such a typical 14-year-old girl, especially her Zanga.com blog. It could be any other 14-year-old girl—you know, her affection for Jesus, her involvement in her church. The only discordant thing I even saw was a Myspace profile she had where she listed her age as 17 instead of 14. But then again, on Myspace, there are a ton of kids who are underage and they‘re lying about their age. It‘s almost an epidemic there.
COSBY: Yes, (INAUDIBLE)
HUFF: There were more obvious signs with David‘s.
COSBY: Yes, his seemed to be more troubled, right, Steven, based on what you were reading? You know, Jeffrey Gardere, if this is true about that it was a curfew that sort of sparked it because the parents said, you know, You‘re pushing her past curfew, we don‘t like it, he comes over, would that spark a kid to do this? And I think back on some of the other horrible things that happened with teens—Columbine, some of these other things. Could something as small as getting upset over a curfew be enough to spark?
GARDERE: I don‘t think that can really happen with an individual who‘s well-rounded, who has good stability, who has an average childhood. I think...
COSBY: But someone‘s who is off-kilter a little bit, like...
GARDERE: Well, I...
COSBY: ... Columbine?
GARDERE: Yes, I think we‘re talking about people perhaps who‘ve been isolated, people who have emotional issues that have not—no one has been able to pay attention to. They‘ve been perhaps building up resentment and anger for quite some time. We haven‘t heard too much about what‘s happening with this kid‘s parents, with David‘s parents. What kind of home did he come from?
COSBY: Well, Dr. Gardere, I want to hit on that because, apparently, they were both home schooled. Is there any—it sounds like—you know, not—I mean, look, there‘s some obviously wonderful people who‘ve been home schooled. But does that also keep them sheltered in some way?
GARDERE: Well, again, Rita, you‘re right on it. We tend to find, yes, home schooling is great, but for those individuals who have issues as far as learning social skills or they have emotional issues, when they‘re in regular school, we know about that. Teachers can see it and then it can be reported. But now you‘re talking about kids that are insulated, so if there‘s any madness, if there‘s any kind of emotional instability, that stays isolated within the home, and no one knows about it until there‘s a tragic event such as this one.
COSBY: And Vito, really quick—we understand that they met through this home schooling system. Thoughts on that? Real quick.
COLUCCI: Well, I agree what the doctor said. It does. You don‘t have a chance to see anything‘s happening in this boy over the last year or two. Definitely. I agree with him on that.
COSBY: All right, guys, thank you very much, all of you. We appreciate it.
And still ahead: Mother Nature unleashes her fury. New video coming in of a tornado tearing apart some homes. Two people who caught the whole thing on tape—well, they‘re going to join me live. They are coming up.
And the hunt is on for the cell phone bandit who can‘t stop yakking on the phone even while robbing a couple of banks. You‘re going to be surprised to learn how old she is. The cops have now identified her.
And next: Now that the father of the prime suspect in the Natalee Holloway case is off the suspect list, according to Aruban police, does that mean that Joran Van Der Sloot is also off the hook? Coming up, we‘ve got some new details.
ANNOUNCER: From MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.
COSBY: And tonight: The father of the key suspect in the Natalee Holloway case is off the hook, but some people believe he should not be eliminated as a suspect. And our next guest says he may soon have some proof. Late Friday, an Aruban judge said Paul Van Der Sloot is no longer a suspect in the search for the Alabama teen. In fact, Paul Van Der Sloot could even receive damages from the government of Aruba after being held for three days in an Aruban jail.
Joining me now is private investigator T.J. Ward, who has been working hard on this case. T.J., why do you think they sort of let him off the hook too soon?
T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, we really don‘t know. We‘ve been running a parallel investigation after finishing up our assignment with the Holloway-Twitty family in August and returned to Atlanta, and we have incorporated several retired FBI agents through my associate, Harold Phipps, with the Norcross (ph) Group. We sent an e-mail out and got a great response with about 12 federal agents who are familiar with the area down there, who‘s assisting us, and information that we have that he‘s directly involved with this investigation. And we‘re sorry to see that the Aruban government has let him off the hook at this time.
COSBY: Now, is this information that the Aruban government has, as well, you believe?
WARD: I don‘t believe they have this information. Or if they do, they‘ve got some other source or plan or direction they‘re going in. But the information that we‘re receiving and in the case that we are building all the way from the beginning of us being in Aruba in June, ties Paulus Van Der Sloot directly involved in this case.
COSBY: And T.J., how credible do you believe this information is?
And is it witnesses? Is it evidence? Is it a combination?
WARD: There‘s witnesses and interviews that we‘ve done and information that we have received, most recently as last week, that gives us information that he—there‘s a possibility, a very strong possibility, that he‘s involved.
COSBY: When do you think that all these pieces are going to come together for what you‘re look at T.J.?
WARD: Well, probably within the next month, we will have some good
solid information, and go forth and go public with it, and then we will
turn our information over to the Aruba Government and the FBI
COSBY: Are the indications that you are getting that he may have played a role in the crime, the cover up or which aspect?
WARD: We think he has played a role in the cover up of her disappearance.
COSBY: How strong do you also still believe that the three boys played a role too from everything that you are getting?
WARD: We believe the boys are directly involved. And again, our theory is that something happened to Natalee, either where she stopped breathing, had a heart attack or whatever.
And in the course of that happening, we think Paul Van der Sloot played a part in the after effect of that in the removal and concealing of Natalee Holloway.
COSBY: Do you believe, real quick T.J., that what you have, could blow this wide open?
WARD: Yes, I do.
COSBY: And you think maybe within a month?
WARD: I would say within the next 30 days, we should have some good solid information that we will be able to go public with it.
COSBY: All right, T.J. please keep us posted. Thank you very much.
WARD: I sure will.
COSBY: Thank you.
WARD: Thank you.
COSBY: And let‘s, of course, bring into the conversation, Geoffrey Fieger and also Wendy Murphy. Geoffrey, of course, is a criminal defense attorney. And Wendy is a former prosecutor. Two of my favorite people.
Wendy, let me bring you. What‘s your reaction that they let this guy off the hook so it seems?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, I got to tell you Rita, I‘m so suspicious of everything they are doing down there and I have to wonder whether this isn‘t—you know, in a way an effort to suggest that there is no cover up after all.
He is suing the government. Remember this is a guy who apparently taught his son how to hide a body and made statements about, well if there is no body, there is no crime.
COSBY: And he may get back pay, Wendy. I mean, he may get back pay.
Isn‘t that amazing?
MURPHY: Let me even make this point. Now, let‘s assume this is some kind of effort on his part to sue the government, because it is going to help placate the American suspicion that there is a cover up. After all he would never bite the hand that feeds him through some sort of corruption his freedom, right?
So perhaps this is part of the show over there in Aruba to shut up the Americans, who are claiming this is all some kind of cover up, because he would never sue the government for wrongfully incarcerating him, even for the—though he was only in for a few days if, in fact, they were really with a wink and a nod doing the guy a favor, and giving him a pass.
COSBY: Let me bring in Geoffrey real quick. Because Geoffrey, look, he hasn‘t been convicted of anything. Spent a just few days in jail. They did release him. It has been a while ago. At some point you got to say, look, we don‘t have a conviction yet.
GEOFFREY FIEGER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not only that, I think it is terribly irresponsible what your previous guest said. I mean, he gave no facts whatsoever.
There is not, as far as I can see, having watched virtually everything that has gone on since the disappearance, not a scintilla of evidence that any crime was committed. There‘s a lot of suspicion...
COSBY: Do you believe Geoffrey that maybe no crime whatsoever in the case in the case?
FIEGER: I don‘t know. I don‘t know, but I‘m not going to guess. There is no body. So, you can suggest that the last people with her might have done something. But, that‘s all you can do.
And the father, there is absolutely no proof of that. And to have these people come in, I mean, the suggestion.
First of all, they have gotten incredible pressure from a foreign country to investigate a possible domestic disturbance, which would be unheard of in this country. We would never do it for another country. And there have been teams of agents in there.
Now, for some guy to come on television and he says I have got some secret information. I‘m not going to be able to explain to you for a month. That is just utter and complete nonsense.
I mean, why don‘t we just have soothsayers come on television?
MURPHY: Geoffrey stop. Geoffrey, Geoffrey, stop.
FIEGER: No, it‘s not. What do you mean stop?
MURPHY: You have got to stop saying there is absolutely no evidence in this case.
FIEGER: Then what?
MURPHY: There is a boat load of evidence...
MURPHY: ...and the very fact that this guy reportedly said to his son, if there is no body, there is no crime...
FIEGER: That‘s not evidence.
MURPHY: ...should put a stop to what you are saying right now.
FIEGER: That‘s not evidence.
MURPHY: Look, this guy is a legitimate...
FIEGER: Excuse me, what court of law would accept that evidence?
MURPHY: ...suspect at least...
COSBY: Geoffrey, is it possible, Geoffrey, that at the end of the day, especially in the cases of the boys, we know that they have given inconsistent statements. Even the chief of police has come on over here and said look, they lied.
Again, that‘s different, of course, than a conviction, of course.
They could just be liars, right?
FIEGER: It‘s different than proof.
COSBY: Right. That‘s what I‘m saying. They could just be lying and telling stories right?
FIEGER: That isn‘t proof. It is not proof of anything.
The kids might be giving inconsistent statements. They might be guilty or they might not be. But, you don‘t have evidence of a crime.
MURPHY: Their statements are evidence, Geoffrey.
FIEGER: This is a free country. Why do we put them in Guantanamo and torture them?
MURPHY: Their statements are evidence.
COSBY: Now, Wendy, what do you make of the statement. The chief of police, this is the acting chief of police, said on our air, I believe they are guilty as hell, but I have to prove it. That is a pretty strong statement coming from the chief of police.
MURPHY: Yes, you know, look, Geoffrey and I might agree that at this point they can‘t prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, but...
FIEGER: A reasonable doubt you couldn‘t even take it to court here.
MURPHY: ...that‘s not what we are talking about. No, stop.
Look it, there is a lot of suspicion around all these guys. And the thing that is galling about this latest development is the fact that by this judgment that they have just left this guy off, and not only let him off, but pronounced from on high that he has nothing involved—no involvement in this case...
FIEGER: I don‘t know if you‘re being dramatic...
MURPHY: ...you have to be an idiot.
No, you have to be an idiot to think this father has no involvement in this case.
COSBY: Geoffrey, and also if you were representing...
FIEGER: We don‘t convict people on suspicion. We don‘t try them on suspicion. We try them on evidence, Wendy. And what you are saying is shocking.
MURPHY: Common sense. Try a dose of it dear Geoffrey.
FIEGER: Excuse me, we don‘t try...
COSBY: Both of you, that is going to have to be the last word. Very feisty. Let‘s have you both on. We‘ll get you both back on very, very soon.
FIEGER: Thanks Rita.
COSBY: And now we are going to move on to another case, of a Virginia student, who went missing and turned up in a shallow grave. Investigators say that they want more time to search for clues in the death of 17-year-old student VCU student, Taylor Behl.
Ben Fawley is the prime suspect in the case. But the 38-year-old amateur photographer has not been charged with Taylor‘s murder. Police say Fawley confessed that the girl died during consensual rough sex.
He is currently being held on related child porn charges.
And still ahead, everybody, amazing pictures of a tornado tearing up towns in the Midwest. We will meet the brave photographer, who caught the video, and find out why there may be more tornadoes on the way. We thought we were past the season. But, no.
And don‘t mess with granny. Find out how a grandmother packing heat kept an intruding from getting away. Only in the Lone Star State. Stay tuned everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s destroyed the place is ruined. In a matter of seconds it‘s gone. Come on out here and look. All our trees are gone, Glennda.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And tonight, we have got that new amazing image from this weekend‘s tornado in the Midwest. As some people headed for cover, one Iowa man grabbed his video recorder and he held on for dear life. Take a look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, look at it going right past that house. OK, Let‘s go. Let‘s go. Get your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in the house now. Go. Go. Go. Go.
COSBY: Well, that all happened I‘m told in just a matter of seconds, LIVE AND DIRECT tonight, the man who shot that incredible video Alan Newman. And also here is his wife, Glennda and also their three-year-old son Nakota (ph). All of them, of course, were able to survive the tornado.
You know, Alan, most people are going undercover—there‘s Nakota (ph) talking about it already. But everybody is going undercover rushing to try to save themselves, you went and got a video camera, why?
ALAN NEWMAN, VIDEOTAPED TORNADO: I don‘t know why. I just wanted to film it. And I never thought we would be in that much danger but I wouldn‘t do it again.
COSBY: Were you nervous? What was going on through your mind, Alan, when the whole thing was happened right before your eyes?
A. NEWMAN: Yeah. I was more concerned with them than I was myself.
I wanted to make sure they got to cover.
COSBY: You know, as we are looking at these pictures, walk us through what was happening at this time if you can see them.
A. NEWMAN: Well, that was coming across from my parents‘ house. We were filming the one from Woodward and basically we thought it was going to stay west of us a little bit. And it turned right at the last second. And we didn‘t even have enough time to get to the house. They made it to the house, but I didn‘t.
COSBY: And Glennda, what was going on through your mind? You must also have been worried sick about your husband?
GLENNDA NEWMAN, WIFE: All I could hear was him telling us to get to the house. And I could tell by his by his voice it was serious. We had waited just a hair too long.
COSBY: What do you remember, Glennda, about these moments too?
G. NEWMAN: I remember his voice. I don‘t remember any of the noises until I saw the videotape. I heard his voice. I held on to our son. And I just ran.
COSBY: Yeah. And let‘s listen in, if we could, again just at this incredible moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
A. NEWMAN: Are you OK, buddy? OK. Look at it. Look at that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, it‘s amazing, Alan. As we heard this. What was it like, Alan, when you were up there? Few of us get to see it firsthand. What was it like seeing that force?
A. NEWMAN: Actually, it almost sucked me right back out. I grabbed
the door to try to go inside with her and I couldn‘t make it. It actually
if I wouldn‘t have a hold of the door knob, it would have taken me right with it.
COSBY: How incredible was it to just look at it firsthand, too?
A. NEWMAN: Oh, it was awesome. I will never forget it. I will never do it again, that‘s for darned sure.
COSBY: You know, Glennda, your three-year-old son Nakota (ph) is with you—and behaving very well, I might add.
G. NEWMAN: Yeah, he‘s a good kid.
COSBY: How did he handle it? What was going on through his mind?
And what did he say to you?
G. NEWMAN: He took it all very, very well. He didn‘t even start to cry until he saw that his swing set was gone. Then he was upset. But ever since then, he has been good. I mean, he has taken it with great stride.
COSBY: And real quick, Alan, damage to your home?
A. NEWMAN: Well, the roof is gone on one side. All the windows are blown out. A lot of our personal belongings are miles away. Our cars are both destroyed. The garage—half of the garage is gone. A lot of personal belongings are gone, but we‘re OK.
COSBY: That‘s the most important thing. And I‘m glad all three of you could be with us tonight. And thank you for sharing these amazing pictures, all of you, thank you very much.
Well, these rare November tornadoes apparently are not over. There could be rough weather, believe it or not tomorrow. NBC weather plus meteorologist Bill Karins has more on that—Bill.
BILL KARINS, NBC METEOROLOGIST: Good evening, Rita. This is going to be a powerful storm system, probably the biggest storm that we have had ever since dealing with our hurricanes. And this will be the first winter storm for the season for many locations.
We could see snow outside of Kansas city. We have snow advisories in effect for the northern half of that area. And heavy snow likely in portions of Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa. That‘s one threat out there on the roads.
The other is going to come with our cold front as we go throughout Tuesday afternoon and Tuesday evening, the potential is there for more tornadoes. We have already had more tornado deaths in November than we‘ve had the entire rest of the year. And the tornado threat is going to be in this area of orangish-red color here. We are talking from Indianapolis just south of Chicago all the way down through areas of Memphis, right outside of Little Rock, northern portions of Mississippi. During the afternoon, we are going to watch this very closely. Looks like this could be favorable for what we call supercell thunderstorms. And with those, we could get very strong tornadoes. We will watch that threat all day for you here on NBC Weather Plus during tomorrow.
COSBY: Bill, thank you very much. Until ahead everybody. Granny get your gun: a fearless grandmother doesn‘t hesitate to protect her family from an intruder. The grandmother joins us live next.
And talk about multitasking, we have got the details on this rude robber who couldn‘t hang up during a hold up. Stay tuned to new details.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Someone just broke into our house!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They‘re on their way. Has he been shot?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He has been shot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where has he shot?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can‘t say. He‘s in the dark, laying in my front yard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hurry!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hurry. My grandmother says hurry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stay on the phone. What did she shoot him with?
What kind of gun?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What kind of gun did you use?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It‘a a .38
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: Granny, get your gun. Those were the 911 tapes from late Wednesday night as a grandmother with a gun shot an intruder in her house. Sixty-six-year-old Susan Buxton was at home with her granddaughter, when a man snuck in and he hid in her closet. She has a gun for protection and she used it. Take another listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How dare you come into my house you lousy son of a (EXPLETIVE DELETED). Lay down. If you get up, I‘m blowing you‘re (EXPLETIVE DELETED), you bastard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she just shoot him again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Got away damn it!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell her to stop shooting. I have help on the way. She needs to stop shooting him.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining us now, gun-toting grandmother Susan Buxton with her granddaughter, Mandy Davis.
You know, Susan, I‘m going to hire you for a bodyguard some time.
You‘re pretty (INAUDIBLE).
SUSAN BUXTON, SHOT HOME INTRUDER: That will be great. I‘ll come help you. I have been trained how to do that now.
COSBY: I can tell. When did you find out that there was an intruder in the house? When did you realize that?
BUXTON: Well, first of all, you never think it‘s going to happen to you. That‘s why I kept checking around and checking around. Oh, this happens in TV shows, not here. But boy, when I finally saw him in that last closet, my first thought was shock and then terrified that he would get the gun, and then really, really angry that he could hurt my granddaughter or me, and that‘s when the battle began.
But, Rita, it was a team effort, because if Mandy hadn‘t had the phone, she couldn‘t have fought him off with just the phone. And I had the gun. It was a definite team effort here. Just ask her.
COSBY: I want to ask her, because Mandy, what was your reaction? All of a sudden, you know, your grandmother goes in the house, you make the call, you hear a gunshot. You had to have been worried?
MANDY DAVIS, GRANDDAUGHTER: Oh, there was a gunshot—I was there.
I saw it.
COSBY: Oh, you saw it. I didn‘t realize you actually saw it?
DAVIS: Yes, ma‘am. Yes.
COSBY: What did you think when you actually saw this happen?
DAVIS: Disbelief. I never thought I would actually see someone get shot.
BUXTON: And I never thought I‘d ever have to shoot anybody. I‘ve had that gun for 12 years and have never pointed it at another human being, just targets. But I‘m so thankful that I took a class and learned how to use it, Rita, because Mandy and I might not be here today talking to you. Women need to learn how to protect...
COSBY: Did you know, Susan, did you know if the guy was armed? Did you know if he was armed, or he was going to try to get the gun from you or anything?
BUXTON: Oh, he was trying to get the gun from me. I kept jumping from side to side and moving my hands around, out of reach of his—his big hands reaching to me. He was over six foot one. And I was scared and mad at the same time. He was in my house.
COSBY: You know, Susan, it‘s amazing, because you are just a little gal, but 66 -- you look great for 66, by the way. You look terrific.
What do you think other intruders are going to learn from seeing what you‘ve done? Do you think they are going to learn a hard lesson?
BUXTON: What I think that people will learn—I think that women need to learn that they don‘t have to be victims, that there are classes. Because I didn‘t used to know how to shoot one. And you can learn how to protect yourself. Because our police can‘t get there until it‘s too late sometimes. They come after everything‘s over with. So that‘s what I want them to know, that they can do it themselves.
COSBY: And Mandy, if the intruder is watching, you think he‘s ever going to dare break into any other house again?
DAVIS: Well, if he does, it won‘t be ours.
BUXTON: It won‘t be ours.
COSBY: That‘s for sure. Thank you both very, very much. Good to have you both on. I‘m glad you are both safe and sound.
BUXTON: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you both very much.
And up next, you could say that this clerk has no hangups about the crime she was accused of committing. New details on the hunt for the rude cell phone robber. That‘s coming up next.
COSBY: At first, we only knew her as the cell phone bandit, but tonight, we can tell you her name. Nineteen-year-old—that‘s right, 19-year-old—Candice Rose Martinez is the woman that police believe robbed four Northern Virginia banks while talking on her cell phone.
On the phone with us tonight, Sheriff Stephen Simpson from Loudoun County, Virginia. Also here with us once again tonight is the author of “The Man Who Outgrew His Prison Cell.” He‘s a former bank robber himself, Joe Loya.
Sheriff, I want to start with you. How were you able to actually I.D. this woman?
SHERIFF STEPHEN SIMPSON, LOUDOUN COUNTY, VA: Well, once we began receiving phone calls and tips from people whilst we got her picture out on the media, we began receiving phone calls and her name kept coming up an awful lot. It was at that time we decided to—had enough information to serve a search warrant on her apartment back over the weekend, and information and evidence that we have collected there pretty much confirmed that that‘s who we are looking for.
COSBY: And real quick, do you know if she was talking to anybody or not on the phone?
SIMPSON: Well, we still don‘t know that. I imagine once an apprehension is made, we will probably be able to get that. The only additional information we do have is that there—we‘re pretty sure that someone else involved. Now, whether that‘s who she was talking to, we‘re not sure at this time.
COSBY: And let me bring in Joe Loya. Joe, do you believe also that she had some help?
JOE LOYA, FORMER BANK ROBBER: Yeah, I think she had some help.
COSBY: Why do you think so, Joe?
LOYA: You know, it took me a while to figure out that I wanted to be a bank robber, and I was already involved in crime. And most people don‘t just, you know, jump into crime initially. So somebody had to put in her imagination that this was possible. It‘s either somebody who has robbed banks before, or somebody who has, you know, seen a lot of bank robbery movies and sort of, you know, has a sort of romance with bank robberies.
And so I think somebody has prompted her. You don‘t just turn 19 and say, I‘m going to start robbing banks. It just doesn‘t happen like that.
LOYA: So I think somebody is coaching her, yes.
COSBY: You know, if you were Candice Martinez, and you know the mind-set, Joe—you know, her picture is now everywhere. Do you think she is fleeing? Do you think eventually she‘s going to surrender? You know, she‘s sort of cornered and her photo is up everywhere?
LOYA: She is in trouble. She‘s in trouble because...
COSBY: So what do you think she will do, Joe?
LOYA: I‘m surprised—to tell you the truth, I‘m surprised the FBI hasn‘t caught her yet. That means she is trapped in somebody‘s house. You know, she can‘t go get any more money. Somebody is housing her. She can‘t go out. She‘s in trouble. So it‘s just a matter of time before they get her. But you know, and she can‘t rob anymore. She just can‘t. She will be seen. She will be caught soon. And like I said, I thought for sure she‘d be caught.
The day I was arrested, in fact, in L.A., that morning, coincidentally, they had the 12 most wanted bank robbers on the newspaper, in the newspaper, big spread, and by that night, when I was arrested, they had arrested six of them. Because people just gave them up, you know, upset brothers-in-laws and ex-girlfriends of their boyfriends, or people just, you know, are a little vindictive, and then there was money for rewards, and that‘s all it takes. She‘ll get caught.
COSBY: Yes, I‘m surprised—I agree with you, Joe. I‘m surprised she hasn‘t been caught.
Sheriff, if you‘re still with us, you know, have you gotten any tips as to where she may be and any indications someone is helping her?
SIMPSON: Well, we do have some indication someone was involved with her.
COSBY: And how is that? Why is that?
SIMPSON: That‘s about as much as I can say at this point right now, other than some other tips have come in.
COSBY: Do you think she is still in the area, Sheriff, or you think she may have fled?
SIMPSON: There is probably a real good possibility—we do know that she has some ties out in the Midwest, out in the Midwest area, that we are not sure she‘s out there yet. We don‘t think she‘s out there yet, but we are certainly checking into that. Probably still fairly local, but I think as the gentleman mentioned, probably hiding somewhere.
LOYA: I think she is local.
COSBY: All right.
LOYA: I think she‘s local.
COSBY: Joe, you think, really, quickly, you have five seconds, literally.
LOYA: She is local, because she was surprised her picture came out on Friday, and she didn‘t have time to leave. I think she just had to hunker down somewhere.
COSBY: All right, guys, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
And that does it for LIVE & DIRECT tonight. Everybody, I‘m Rita Cosby. “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” is next. Lisa Daniels is filling in for Joe Scarborough, so don‘t touch that dial. It‘s coming up right now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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