updated 11/21/2005 11:43:42 AM ET 2005-11-21T16:43:42

Guests: David Lopez, Yvonne Gonzalez, Demitrius Hall, Eric Dubin, Steve Cron, Beth Holloway Twitty, Ty Ritter, Jamie Skeeters, Iva Bradley, Ron Bradley, Kelly Siegler, Brian White, Steven Huff, Judi Werthein

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, Natalee Holloway‘s mother tells me if she believes the voice on that bizarre phone call she recently received is that of her daughter.

Plus, sneakers made to help people illegally sneak into the United States.  You‘ll meet the person who‘s helping people make a run for the border.

But first, late today, a stunning verdict from the jury for the Robert Blake civil trial.  The jury found actor Robert Blake liable for the death of his wife, Bonnie Lee Bakley, who was murdered outside a restaurant in California.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The majority of us felt that Mr. Blake was guilty.  There‘s no price anybody could put on the love of a parent or a mother in the future, regardless of the character of that particular person.


COSBY:  And the jury wants Blake to pay her family—get this—a whopping $30 million in damages.  We‘re going to talk to three of the jurors in just a moment, but first, here is NBC‘s Michael Okwu with all the details.  Michael, quite a dramatic day at the courthouse.

MICHAEL OKWU, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Dramatic, indeed, Rita.  In fact, an NBC producer who was inside said that when the verdict was read, a hush descended on the courtroom.  For his part, Robert Blake, who sat there in a black suit and a charcoal tie, showed very, very little emotion throughout the entire proceedings.  Just moments before that, he was seen reclining with his feet up on a bunch just outside that courtroom.  And I personally saw him, as did dozens off reporters here on the scene, outside of the courthouse, leaning against a wall, enjoying a long drag of a cigarette and nodding and smiling at well-wishers who were giving him the thumbs-up sign.

There were about eight days of deliberation in this trial, produced about 50 witnesses, perhaps none more damaging than to the defense‘s case than Robert Blake himself.  The jurors described him as arrogant, as antagonistic towards the plaintiffs‘ attorneys.  They also said that he was just not very credible, all this is, of course, stemming from the May 2001 shooting death of his wife of six months at the time, Bonnie Lee Bakley, who was sitting in the passenger side of his car just outside a restaurant where the two had just enjoyed dinner together.

It is noteworthy, perhaps, that Blake did not testify during the course of that trial.  But many of the arguments that were made in the criminal trial, for which he was acquitted, by the way, were also made in this civil suit, as well.  They argued that Blake went back inside the restaurant to retrieve a gun that he used for protection and that, coincidentally, it was during that time period that his wife was shot.

They also made the argument that she was a drifter, she con artist, she was somebody who swindled older, vulnerable men out of money, and that any one of these dozens of men, including seven ex-husbands, could have been liable for this murder.

The plaintiffs argued that Blake felt trapped and embarrassed by his wife.  She was not a suitable mother for the 5-year-old daughter.  And so therefore, they came to this conclusion, the jury did.  They asked himself two very basic questions.  In the end, they say, they said, How much is a life valued?  And just how strong a message can we send—Rita.

COSBY:  Really amazing.  An incredible decision.  Michael, thank you very much.

And now to a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive, three of the jurors who made that decision only a few hours ago.  As you heard, they deliberated for eight straight days.  They ended up with a 10-to-2 vote.  And again, their decision, as you just heard from Michael Okwu, and also the others, that, ultimately, they decided that he should pay $30 million in damages.  Of course, he was acquitted in the criminal trial, but this was the decision in the civil trial.

And joining us is David Lopez, also Demitrius Hall.  And also on the phone with us is another juror, Yvonne Gonzalez.  David Lopez, let me start with you.  How did all of you come to this conclusion?  It was eight days.  That‘s a long time.

DAVID LOPEZ, BLAKE CIVIL TRIAL JUROR:  Well, good evening, Rita.  Well, basically, what we did, we wanted to make sure we did the right decision.  We had a lot of testimony.  We had a lot of evidence, a lot of things to look at.  I think I can speak for myself and also some of the other jury members that we wanted to make sure we made the right decision.  It was definitely not a slam dunk, as some reporters or other people had said.  It was something that we really had to think about, confer with the other jurors and make sure we were making the right decision.

COSBY:  You know, Demitrius, I want to show a chunk—this is of Robert Blake during the deposition.  This is a tape of him on the deposition.  And I want to get your reaction because I want to find out if this is how he was on the stand in front of you guys.  First, let‘s play the deposition tape of Robert Blake.


ROBERT BLAKE, ACTOR:  Don‘t get cute with me.  Now, I‘m not going to tell you again.  Now, let‘s stick with the facts.  This is not three hours between each question.  You just heard me say that.  I don‘t care if you made a mistake.  I‘m not allowed to make a mistakes, and neither is he.  Did you hear that?


BLAKE:  OK.  Thank you.

I beg your pardon.  Are you unhappy something?  That‘s a filthy, stinking lie.  What is it based on?  Nothing but your own personal nonsense.


COSBY:  Demitrius, a very feisty Robert Blake, pointing his finger, shouting.  Is that what you saw on the stand?  And what did you think of him?

DEMITRIUS HALL, BLAKE CIVIL TRIAL JUROR:  Well, I think that—Rita, I think that—for one, I think he‘s a liar.  I also think that he has no compassion for what happened.  I also think that he should have also came forward when all this took place and admitted to what he had done.  All I‘m seeking is justice, and I think justice was served.

COSBY:  Yvonne, did you hate him, too?  Did you think he was a liar, as well, Yvonne?

YVONNE GONZALEZ, BLAKE CIVIL TRIAL JUROR:  I don‘t think any of us hated this man.  That‘s not what our intentions were, to come in and hate Robert Blake.  We listened to, you know, the facts and all the evidence.  And you know, I think that him getting on the stand and acting the way did he wasn‘t the best thing in his nature to do, but I don‘t think that any of us ever hated him.  We just did what we thought was best.  We made the right decision.

COSBY:  Did you feel he was clearly lying, Yvonne, as Demitrius was just saying?

GONZALEZ:  A lot of his statements were inconsistent.  You know, I—you know, there were some things we were very—were very questionable.  And unfortunately, there were more that were more unquestionable than, you know, the truth.

COSBY:  And David, did you have a lot of questions about him?  And do you think he was his own worst enemy getting up there?  And did you shake your head, as it sounds like—like David was, too?

LOPEZ:  Yes.  We—we came into it when we were called upon, and we sat there.  We came in with open minds, and when we sat in the courtroom, we wanted basically to hear all the evidence, make sure we heard all the evidence from Mr. Blake and all the other witnesses.  And when he started opening his mouth, he was his worst enemy.  He would just blurt out things and—like what you heard on the tape, Don‘t be cute with me.  He was very angry.  Just simple questions would make him angry.

COSBY:  Demitrius, how did you guys come up with the amount, 30 million bucks? That‘s a lot of money.

HALL:  Yes, it is, Rita.  It‘s a lot of money, but you can‘t pin no price on love and compassion.  I mean, we‘re here today and the verdict had come out to send a message to Robert Blake that nobody‘s above the law.  I don‘t care how much money you have in the world, there‘s nobody above the law.  And that‘s how I feel.  That‘s how the other jurors felt, too, the same way.  It had nothing do with money.  We are all seeking justice, and that justice—I think justice was prevailed today.

COSBY:  And David, what‘s your message, too?  What message do you think your decision sends, David?

LOPEZ:  It basically sends—you know, there‘s people—there‘s people out there who think they can do whatever they want.  If they have big pockets, they feel they can do what they want, and essentially they can buy people off.  There was—we just want to send the message that—we understand that Bonnie Blake didn‘t live a straight life, should—with multiple marriages and her business.  There‘s a lot of things that we as jurors had to consider, the way the kids were raised and maybe wasn‘t the ideal family.

You know, we‘re all not perfect.  We understand that.  But no mater what we think or what the public thinks of Bonnie Bakley, no one has the power to say that --  to take her life.  You know, no one has the power to take anybody‘s life.  At what cost?  That‘s the message we‘re trying to say, is that, you know, you don‘t have the right to decide, you know, to take someone‘s life.

COSBY:  Well, very powerful decision by all of you guys.  Thank you, all of you, for being with us.  We very much appreciate it.

And let me now bring in the attorney for Bonnie Lee Bakley‘s family, Eric Dubin.  We also have criminal defense attorney Steve Cron, who has represented celebrities, including comedienne Paul Poundstone and also the lead singer from the rock band Stone Temple Pilots.

Eric, first of all, justice served today?  I‘m sure you‘re a happy man.

ERIC DUBIN, BAKLEY FAMILY ATTORNEY:  I‘m very proud today.  I‘m proud to hear those jurors talk about justice.  Judge Schachter ran an amazing courtroom.  And I‘m really proud for the detectives, Detective Ito and Tindall (ph) and the prosecutors.  This was all their hard work that I presented.

COSBY:  Now, Eric...


COSBY:  ... guilty decision here in the civil case but not in the other case, not in the criminal case?  What do you think made the difference, Eric?

DUBIN:  Well, I think if Shelly Samuels (ph) or Detective Ito could have cross-examined Robert Blake, like I got to, he may be living in a different place right now.  That may have been the difference.  And we had 12 intelligent people who were there every day listening to every word, and I‘m very proud to be a part of the system today.

COSBY:  And Steve, real quick, you can tell they did not like Robert Blake.  I mean, you heard that juror.  That was pretty strong from that one juror, Demitrius.  He said, He‘s a liar.

STEVE CRON, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Yes, I think, Rita, that‘s probably the big difference between the verdict in the criminal case and in the civil case is that in the civil case, Eric could call him as a witness, cross-examined him, and in the criminal case, he had the right to remain silent, which he did.

COSBY:  You know, Eric, I got to ask you this because I had dinner with Robert Blake a couple of months ago.  He told me he‘s broke.  He looked pretty ragged, said there‘s no money to get in this trial.  This was before the civil trial.  Now the decision is 30 million bucks.  Where are you going to get the cash?  Does he have money?

DUBIN:  Yes.  Well, who picked up the tab for your dinner?

COSBY:  Actually, we did.  We did.  It was a business dinner, so we picked it up.  He didn‘t look like he could afford it.

DUBIN:  Well, it‘s real simple, Rita.  You know, the criminal jury said he‘s innocent of the crime, and they let him go.  And he respected their decision, and he‘s a free man now.  Now we have a jury that listened to the evidence for several months and all the witnesses, and they say he‘s ordered to pay this amount.  It‘s not optional.  And yes, I fully expect to collect that money from Mr. Blake, and I fully expect he‘ll pay it.

COSBY:  You know, now, Eric, you were saying that—I saw on an earlier show.  You said you believe he‘s worth 20 million bucks.  Is he hiding money somewhere?  Do you think he actually has that?

DUBIN:  Well, I mean, one of the beautiful things about America is you can do things like that.  There‘s nothing stopping anybody from going to the bank and withdrawing everything they have and burying it in the desert.  But I really think Robert Blake is not that kind of guy, and I really hope he respects what happened here and pays the verdict.

COSBY:  And as you point out (INAUDIBLE) definitely the jury‘s decision.  They seem very passionate about it.

I want to get to Steve really quick on another related topic, celebrity issues, because Russell Crowe today, Steve, pled guilty.  And on the flip side, it was a pretty nominal amount that he has to pay.  This is for the assault.  This is throwing the phone at the New York hotel concierge person this summer.  Was it a $160 fine?  On the flip side, do some of these celebs get off easy?

CRON:  Well, I think Mr. Crowe can probably afford the $160 fine.

COSBY:  Yes, I think he can definitely afford it!  But what do you make of that?  Here‘s, you know, Robert Blake having to pay $30 million.  And obviously, that‘s the jury‘s decision.  They felt very passionate about it.  But in the other case, this guy who‘s very, very wealthy is paying $160, 160 bucks.

CRON:  Well, part of that, Rita, is that Mr. Blake chose to roll the dice and go to trial.  When you go to trial, there‘s no telling how it‘s going to turn out.  Mr. Crowe said, I‘ll take my deal.  He got a reduced charge and a reduced fine and decided to take the best he could get.  Mr.  Blake decided to take his chances, and he lost.  That‘s just the way it goes.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And of course, Blake‘s case, he was, of course, accused of murder, a very much more serious crime.

CRON:  A little bit different.

COSBY:  Yes, very different.  Steve, please stick with us.  Eric, thank you very much.  Congratulations case today.  Thank you very much.

And when we come back, everybody, Natalee Holloway‘s mother joins me, along with the Marine who delved into the dark world of kidnapping, searching for answers.  It‘s incredible.  And that‘s not all.  Take a look.

Still ahead: Natalee isn‘t the first girl to vanish on vacation.  A stunning new clue for a mom and dad who lost their daughter more than a decade ago.  Could this newly discovered photo be their daughter?  They join me live.

A horrific courtroom demonstration that helped convict a woman of murdering her husband, but did it go too far?  I‘ll ask both sides.

And talk about sneaking.  Wait until you hear how one shoe designer is actually helping people sneak across our borders.  Is it even legal?  It‘s coming up.


COSBY:  And now to the latest developments in the search for Natalee Holloway.  Natalee‘s mother now says an Aruban newspaper reporter may have seen the Alabama teen alive after her May 30th disappearance.  And the clues don‘t stop there, either.  Beth Twitty also says that a mysterious phone call to her cell phone could provide new leads in her daughter‘s search.


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MISSING GIRL‘S MOTHER:  It almost sounds as if it‘s a foreigner.  And they say, yes, and then you hear—it‘s almost like a clank, like they‘re shifting the phone.  And then there‘s music playing in the background, and I hear what to me is a very subdued vocal utterance from Natalee.  It‘s almost as if it‘s—it‘s almost—I know, it—it‘s almost as if it‘s, Hi, Mom.


COSBY:  And LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is Natalee‘s mother, Beth Holloway Twitty.  Beth, what went on through your mind when you got that call?

TWITTY:  Oh, well, Rita, if I listened to the call 40 times, I‘ve said

I listened to it 80 times.  And you know, when you receive something like

this, it‘s somewhat crafted in itself the message that, you know, it just -

it just can‘t—you just can‘t help but think that it could be a possibility, Rita.  And you know, we just want to rule—you know, when we get something like that, we have to rule it out or in.  And we follow the proper chain of command.  We immediately contacted FBI.  And we just have to go forward from there with each lead that we get, Rita.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  You know, and one of the things I thought was very powerful, what you said on Dr. Phil‘s show.  I want to play this clip, just, you know, basically saying, Look, a mother knows best, and also with your particular background.  Let‘s take a listen, if we could, Beth.


TWITTY:  I‘m a pediatric speech pathologist, and I‘ve done this for 22 years.  This was my trained profession of hearing the utterance on this voice-mail, thinking that it was her.

DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TALK SHOW HOST:  Our analyst said, you know, forget about what they talked about on television and “CSI” and that sort of thing.  The only person who‘s ever going to be tell if that‘s Natalee is her mother.

TWITTY:  Exactly.


COSBY:  And Beth, how important do you think this call could be to the case?  And what did you think you heard on the other end?

TWITTY:  You know, Rita, it‘s just—it‘s so hard to say, but when you feel that you are hearing the vocal quality from your child, you know, that—you know, that‘s just something that—you know, like I said, it just begins to raise that question, that doubt in your mind and—that we‘ve had all along.  I mean, whether it‘s a 20 percent chance that Natalee‘s alive, Rita, or a 1 percent chance, you know, it‘s just something that we just have to just dig deep into and find out more information about it.

COSBY:  You‘re right.  You can‘t exclude.  And you never know, especially in the case, unfortunately, you know, with Elizabeth Smart.  She turned up.  I mean, you never know what could happen.  I mean, absolutely.  You can‘t exclude anything.

You know, one of the other things, too, you got that tip from this newspaper reporter.  This is this “El Diario” newspaper reporter.  I want to show a little bit about what you talked to Dr. Phil about that, as well.


TWITTY:  He was saying that, you know, they had dyed her hair and what they were doing was moving her from home to home on the island.  Once they were getting close and about to break in to find her, then they were tipped off and that she was moved.


COSBY:  Beth, how much credibility do you give this information?  Did you look at this at all?

TWITTY:  Well, Rita, this was a real individual.  He‘s a reporter with “Diario.”  And I just happened to be in a—I was with Natalee‘s family physician when he approached me on the island of Aruba.  And to him, he felt that he could quite possibly be tracking Natalee.

Now, whether he was or not, Rita, you know, we just don‘t know that.  But you know, to him, he had been on this individual for at least three months.  And I believe if you go back into the (INAUDIBLE), the first week, this same individual was tracking someone whom he thought could be Natalee.  And you know, there again, it just raises that question, and we just have to just dig deeper into it, Rita.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  You know, what kind of feedback have you gotten overall from the Dr. Phil show?

TWITTY:  Well, I think that...

COSBY:  (INAUDIBLE) any good leads, I hope?  I hope maybe some other calls or some new tips, I hope?

TWITTY:  Well, I think that what Dr. Phil‘s show has exposed are these brothels that they have in this neighboring Curacao, how it‘s just so close to the island of Aruba.  And it concerns me when you see a compound of this, with the jagged glass and the fence and the barbed wire and the security guards.  I‘m thinking, you know, who are they keeping out or who are they keeping in, Rita?

It just becomes very scary in the Netherlands Antilles islands that they have these places on their island, especially where the judges are and the American consulate is.  It just concerns me, this place that Ty Ritter was able to uncover.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And Beth, if you could, hang on because as the search, of course, for Natalee does go on, exactly focusing on the sex trade.  That‘s where some of the investigators are putting their energy.  Could Natalee Holloway have been kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery?

One of the investigators working for Dr. Phil, Ty Ritter—you just heard Beth talking about it—tells what he saw on the Dutch island of Curacao, right next to Aruba.  Take a listen.


TY RITTER, RESCUES KIDNAP VICTIMS:  Outside, 10 acres of nothing but flesh for sale.  It‘s got a 20-foot wall around it and steel gates.  There are women who are from all over, who were women that were using the phone, and security standing over them, listening to every word that the girl is saying.  That smacks of some sort of control, prisoners.  There‘s hundreds of girls in there.  It‘s just a haven for flesh.


COSBY:  And LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is that man, Ty Ritter.  He‘s the man you just saw on the tape.  He‘s rescued many missing people.  And also with us is polygraph examiner Jamie Skeeters, who did an incredible interview with Deepak Kalpoe, which is causing, of course, all the fireworks.

You know, Ty, you went down to these Caribbean islands.  Where exactly did you go?  What did you see on the search?

RITTER:  Well, we found, like you showed, literally a haven for flesh.  We found a place that was approximately 15 acres, a wall around it, a couple hundred apartments, each having a lady live in it.  And you go there, you pay your money, get past the security and the metal detectors and the armed guards, and you can take your pick, whatever you want, women from all over the nation, all over the world in there, and some of them obviously being monitored very closely.  They had phones there where women could go up to them periodically, whenever they chose to, it appeared, and then others that were monitored with security literally hovering over them while they were on the phone.  I saw five at one time and...


COSBY:  ... Ty, what led you there?  What was the tip that led you actually to those places, particularly in Curacao and Venezuela?

RITTER:  Well, it was one of the leads that we had was going after a lead on another missing girl and the possibility of the link between the two islands.  A lot of people don‘t realize it, and we haven‘t totally verified it, but we have missing people, girls, from those two islands that date back as far as the ‘60s.

COSBY:  Wow, you know...

RITTER:  Generally European and Scandinavian.

COSBY:  You know, Jamie, you were talking about the other night—this was rough because you were with Ty.  What, Ty got a slash on his stomach?  And it was pretty rough for you, too, Jamie, right?

JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER:  We paid our dues, Rita, in two different parts of the world to try find Natalee and any other missing Americans.

COSBY:  Yes, and you know, how—what are the chances that you‘d find her, Jamie?  I mean, both of you guys have been in this line of work, but it‘s a needle in a haystack, I bet, right?

SKEETERS:  Well, you are much like Dr. Phil.  When Dr. Phil and his staff came up to me and asked me if I thought Natalee was dead, I said, yes.  He goes, What percent?  I had to say 99 percent.  He wanted to know why not 100 percent?  I said, I don‘t have a body.  And it‘s that point that Dr. Phil, like you and the others, go out and eliminate that 1 percent, bring it to closure, find them or bring it to closure.  And that‘s what we did.

COSBY:  You know, Ty, real quick, I want to ask you about Amy Bradley because there‘s another missing girl who‘s been missing for a number of years.  It sounds like you actually got some headway in that case.  Just real briefly, what did you find out, Ty?

RITTER:  A picture was sent to the family that appears that it could be Amy.  I‘m no expert, I can‘t swear to it, but it looks like it could be her.

You know, real quick, Skeeters says that he‘s 1 percent off of being sure that Natalee is dead.  I, on the other hand—Skeeters is the best in the business, but I believe that it‘s a 50-50 chance.  There‘s as much evidence that says Natalee‘s alive as says she‘s dead.

COSBY:  Wow, 50/50...

RITTER:  And I don‘t look for dead people.

COSBY:  Well, let‘s hope that you‘re right, Ty.  That‘s good to hear, and that‘s very—hope that you absolutely are right.  Thank you, Ty.  Love to have you back on.  Jamie, always good to have you.  And Beth, stay with us because we‘re going to talk with you after the break.

And still ahead, everybody—you heard Ty talk about Amy Bradley.  Well, Amy Bradley‘s parents are going to join me live.  Do they think that a newly-discovered picture is their daughter?

And a shocking courtroom demonstration helped convict a woman of killing her husband, but did the prosecutor go too far?  I‘ll ask coming up.


COSBY:  Well, it‘s a sad fact to report but Natalee Holloway is not the only American woman missing in the Caribbean.

Seven years ago, Amy Bradley was last seen a cruise ship docked in Curacao.  She was on vacation with her family when she simply vanished in the wee hours in the morning. 

There‘s new hope, though, for the Bradley family, after getting potential proof that Amy is still alive.  You just heard about it from Ty Ritter. 

Live and direct tonight are Amy Bradley‘s parents, Iva and Ron Bradley.  Iva, I think you‘re the only one who can actually hear me, but if both of you could answer this.  How tough have the last seven years been for you?  And if you can ask your husband to respond to that too.

IVA BRADLEY, AMY BRADLEY‘S MOTHER:  She wants to know how tough it‘s been in the last seven years. 

RON BRADLEY, AMY BRADLEY‘S FATHER:  It‘s been very difficult.  You wake up every morning thinking about Amy and you go to bed every night thinking about her.  She‘s never off our minds. 

I.              BRADLEY:  And we do everything that we can do, every single day, to generate activity and leads and whatever it takes to keep focused on looking for Amy. 

COSBY:  You know, Ron just saw her—was one of the last people to see her, right Iva?  Describe sort of, what it was—he saw her what at 5:30 and then all the morning she vanished at six in the morning?

I.              BRADLEY:  Ron saw her between 5:15 and 5:30.  She was on the balcony resting carefully.  We were docking at Curacao.  Then he laid back down, woke up at six and he went top deck to look for Amy.  He was not the last person to see her on that ship.  There were two teenage girls who saw her going up a glass elevator with a band member, and that was approximately at 5:45 a.m.  And the ship was completely docked at 6 a.m. 

COSBY:  I want to bring in, if I could, the comment, this is from Dr.  Phil.  Because there is some, obviously, some new information that gives both of you, I‘m sure, a lot of hope.  A photo.  And it‘s a comparison of an old photo some new photo that was found not too long ago. 

Let me show was Dr. Phil has to say about that.


DR. PHIL MCGRAW, TALK SHOW HOST:  They measure things that don‘t change in time.  You can see that the cheek bones here that have some similarity.  Now, look at her chin.  And even her hair widow‘s peak, which doesn‘t change, and if you look at it, it is dramatically similar. 

OK?  Then, Iva, you noticed that there‘s a freckle just on the side of her nose, just below her eye.  And that appears to be a mark that is also on the person to the left. 


COSBY:  You know, Ron and Iva, if you can respond to what Dr. Phil is saying?

I.              BRADLEY:  Well, she wants to know how you felt about the program with Dr. Phil and what he said about the resemblance of the picture. 

R. BRADLEY:  I thought the picture that was displayed was a great possibility, it could be Amy.  We‘re not saying that it is.  But, if there‘s any possibility at all that it could be Amy, we‘re going to do everything we can to try to find her.  And the resemblances are pretty spooky.

COSBY:  Yes they are, they‘re striking.  You know, Iva, where and when was this new picture taken?  What‘s the background on this picture, Iva?

I.              BRADLEY:  Well, I had received the picture via an e-mail of a Web site.  The person remains nameless.  When I got the e-mail and we opened it up, we took a look at the pictures and we saw some resemblance, but we didn‘t initially think, you know, it could be Amy.

And then, after taking a stronger look at the picture and blowing the picture up, taking an artist‘s view and turning the picture upside down, removing the hair and taking a look at the structure and the contour of the face, and the hairline, and the eyes, the nose, the freckle, the mouth, especially, the chin, and the cheek. 

Once you blow that up and you take a look at it very closely, it‘s a tremendous amount of resemblance to our Amy. 

COSBY:  Yes, there does look like there‘s a lot of similarities.  I want to bring in—stay with us, if you could, Iva.

I want to bring in Natalee Holloway‘s mom, Beth Holloway Twitty.

You know Beth, do you think it‘s more than coincidence that Amy goes missing, just a few miles away from where Natalee went missing? 

TWITTY:  Oh gosh, I think their similarities are so striking.  What concerns me is the Bradleys just left the dock in Aruba. 

I think that what we were trying to decide, if some individuals that had been related to Carlos and Charlies, whether band members had come over to the island of Curacao.  And, you know, it just really is just eerie how similar these disappearances are.

COSBY:  You know, Beth, it‘s been seven years.  And as you hear from the Bradley family, they have not given up hope.  Pretty incredible, right, Beth? 

TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely.  It just kills me to meet Iva and Ron Bradley.  They‘re wonderful people and I just—it just kills me to see that we‘re all in the same shoes.  It‘s just heart wrenching. 

COSBY:  You know, Iva, as you look at Beth there on the other side of the screen, this mother who clearly loves her daughter just as much as you love Amy, what would you like to say to her tonight?

I.              BRADLEY:  Well, we were fortunate enough to meet when we did the other show together.  When Beth and I met, we locked eyes and there weren‘t any words necessary. 

COSBY:  Yes.  Beth, what would you like to say to Iva tonight? 

TWITTY:  You know, I think that Iva and Ron Bradley and I, we‘re in this together.  And I think that, you know, we just have to keep being voices for our daughters.  And also, it just sends a clear message to other families that, right now, it is just not safe traveling to these islands for our young children. 

And until changes—changes need to be made.  And I think the Bradleys had just as many barriers and road blocks and difficulties as we have in searching for Natalee. 

COSBY:  You know, Iva, did you find you were dealing with so many hurdles and questionable law enforcement as well, Iva?  In your case? 

I.              BRADLEY:  Oh, it‘s unbelievable, Rita.  The attitude, the lackadaisical attitude of the authorities that we dealt with, the don‘t care attitude.

And the thing that‘s startling to us is, we are used to law enforcement here in the United States, and the law is the law, and right is right, and wrong is wrong. 

We never felt that when we were dealing with anybody on the island.  We‘re concerned for anybody that‘s travelling outside of the U.S. to understand that when you do travel outside, there is not jurisdiction, and you‘re placing your life in somebody else‘s hands.

COSBY:  OK, Iva, real quick, as time goes by, I‘m sure it‘s tough.

I.              BRADLEY:  It‘s incredibly tough, however, we know where we were when Amy disappeared.  We‘ve had two solid eyewitness sightings.  We‘ve had a diver that saw Amy on a beach being controlled by two men.  We saw a Navy man in a brothel.  Not the brothel that Ty speaks about, but over on the other side of the island in a hole in a wall. 

And so, we‘ve had those—that individual was interviewed and polygraphed by the FBI and he did pass this polygraph and found to be credible. 

COSBY:  Well, I hope that you get some answers.  And I hear Beth shaking her head.  And I know she‘s praying for you as you are praying for her tonight.

Thank you, both of you, guys, very, very much.

I.              BRADLEY:  Thank you, Rita, for having us.

TWITTY:  Thank you, Rita.

COSBY:  Thank you.  It was an honor to have all of you guys. 

And still ahead, a bombshell in the case of a teen accused of killing his girlfriend‘s parents.  Is there now videotaped evidence that the girl went willingly with her boyfriend after the murders?

And, a prosecutor who re-enacted a horrible murders tells me why she went to extremes.  Did she go too far?  Both sides are joining me, coming up.


COSBY:  Claims of a bombshell in the case of a teen accused of killing his girlfriend‘s parents.  Was his girlfriend in on it?  And is there videotaped proof?  Stay with us.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  If the defendant were to get up on top of Jeffrey Wright, something like this, and straddle him, and she‘s right handed, then how do you think she held the knife?  See it in my hand. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This is just all speculation.  Objection.  How do you think she held a knife?

(END VIDEO CLIP)             

COSBY:  Well, dramatic courtroom reenactments from the trial of Susan Wright convicted of stabbing her husband nearly 200 times. 

But did the prosecutor go too far in recreating that crime?  That‘s the argument made by Wright‘s attorney in an appeal for a new trial.  But a judge late yesterday disagreed and denied the appeal. 

We‘re joined now by Susan Wright‘s Defense Attorney Brian White and also the prosecutor in the case Kelly Siegler. 

Brian, why do you think you lost? 


If I knew that I‘d be betting the ponies at aqueduct.

COSBY:  Do you think it was because you weren‘t able to bring in this reenactment, and be able to show...

WHITE:  I think that is exactly—that is exactly the reason why, Rita.

Look, these three judges for whom I have great respect decided, for whatever reasons, that they didn‘t want to consider the videotape that we just saw. 

The DVD of the real life, realtime reenactment of Kelly Siegler turning a courtroom into a Hollywood sound stage is something that the court of appeals has to see every bit as much as the 12 folks, who sat judgment on Susan Wright.

And for them to say that it wasn‘t properly part of the appellate record really is disingenuous.  And when you take away that videotape it‘s like doing “Hamlet” without Hamlet.  You can‘t win unless you see what those jurors saw. 

COSBY:  Yes. 

And as we looked at these pictures, I mean, it‘s pretty incredible, Kelly, the demonstration you did.  Is this sort of the furthest you‘ve ever done in a case?  And do you think maybe it were over the top? 

KELLY SIEGLER, PROSECUTOR IN SUSAN WRIGHT CASE:  You know what‘s funny about that is that it really didn‘t seem like a big deal as far as demonstrations go because we do them all the time. 

And the reason its dramatic is because the crime Susan Wright committed was dramatic.  We used the bed, the knife, the evidence to reenact exactly what she did.

And because lawyers like Brian don‘t want to admit that what she did was horrible and dramatic, they want to act like we made it up.  And it‘s just not the way it happened. 

COSBY:  You know, Brian, what does she say happened that night?  You know, what does Susan Wright say happened?  Because to stab your husband 200 times, that‘s pretty severe. 

WHITE:  Not only severe, but it certainly has all the earmarks of anger, rage, resentment, terror.  Rita, Susan claimed that she acted in self-defense that it was kill or be killed. 

And what makes this video so powerful, what really makes the playing field so unleveled is that if you believe Kelly‘s theory of the case, this was a seduction turned slaughter.  And I‘m here to tell you it was anything but that, Rita. 

COSBY:  You know, Kelly, any evidence of self-defense in your mind? 

SIEGLER:  No, none. 

COSBY:  What do you think happened?  What do you think happened that night? 

SIEGLER:  She seduced him.  She got him naked.  She got him all worked up and ready to make love, and after she had him tied up, all—both of his hands, both of his legs, she pulled out a knife, and she started stabbing and nicking, and torturing him.

And then she got on top of him, and you saw the evidence.  We‘ve seen the pictures.  It was horrible what she did to him and, you know, who knows why a woman would be that mad, but she was.  And it‘s not understandable, but that‘s what happened. 

WHITE:  Yes, but Rita, that doesn‘t give the prosecutor the right to reenact real one of basic instinct.  You‘ve got to have something more than the law and the facts according to Kelly. 

Kelly is an outstanding prosecutor.  And she may be quite simply one of the best I‘ve ever seen, but to go over the top like that is like Sammy Sosa corking his bat.  You don‘t need to do it if you‘re good. 

COSBY:  Now, Brian, do you believe that there‘s any other grounds for appeal?  What do you see for the future for Susan Wright? 

WHITE:  Well, I talked to Susan yesterday.  And Susan took it a lot better than I did.  And Susan understands that we have another round of appeals.  And it‘s just a process. 

We‘re going to ask the nine wise souls of the court of criminal appeals in Austin to take a look at what the court of appeals did.  Because I believe as the court of criminal appeals, hopefully, will believe that you can‘t adequately find against Susan Wright unless you look at the DVD itself. 

Simply it‘s the best evidence.  And I‘m confident that nine judges will take a different take than the three that handed down the decision yesterday, Rita. 

COSBY:  All right, guys, well keep us posted.  Thank you very much.  Interesting case.  And interesting demonstration, Kelly.  Thank you very much. 

And now, onto another case, the new shocking details in the case of suspected teen killer David Ludwig. 

Right now, the 18-year-old suspect is in jail suspected of kidnapping his 14-year-old girlfriend after shooting her parents dead.  Defense attorneys now say surveillance video will soon show that 14-year-old Kara Beth Borden, that‘s his girlfriend, went along with him willingly.

That‘s some new information that just came in recently.  Joining me now is crime blogger Steven Huff of Planethuff.Com.  You‘ve been analyzing the suspects online communications.  And back with us is criminal defense attorney Steven Cron. 

Steven, if the defense attorney, you know, is correct, if this is believable that apparently there is some video, apparently some sort of surveillance video, this could be very damning for Kara Borden, and very helpful for his client, right?

CRON:  I‘m not sure that it helps his client a whole lot. 

COSBY:  Why not, Steven Cron, why not? 

CRON:  Well, because all that would be is saying she helped me do it. 

She helped him kill her parents. 

COSBY:  But, it doesn‘t give him the kidnapping?  Doesn‘t it erase the kidnapping charge?  Come on.

CRON:  All right.  Maybe, it yes.  That would erase the kidnapping.  But, when you have got a double murder, having a kidnapping on top of it doesn‘t add a whole lot to the puzzle here. 

If you go down on two counts of murder, I don‘t think it makes a whole lot of difference if you add a kidnapping on top of that. 

COSBY:  But, it could add if its death penalty or not.  It could actually make the difference here from what I understand in Pennsylvania. 

I want to show you something.  These are some interesting conversations and some interesting points.  This is in the affidavit by Warwick Township Police affidavit.  And I want to get to you respond Steven Cron. 

These are conversations between David Ludwig and a friend.  This is talk on a tape.  Apparently, there‘s this 18-minute videotape.  On it he talks about shoot and kill family members inside of the residence, that‘s another residence. 

And also sex with Kara Borden and this is sick, her sister, who is younger than her, including that the sex would constitute statutory rape and the potential to have to shoot a guy named Jonathan if he found out about it. 

Now, Jonathan isn‘t the parents of Kara Borden, but this certainly shows just sort of the demented mind of this guy, Steven Cron, right? 

CRON:  It looks like a sick guy.  I mean, here he is with a 14-year-old to start with, and they‘re talking about—he‘s talking about having sex with his girlfriend and the girlfriend‘s sister, and then planning on killing on someone else.

And then he ends up allegedly killing her parents.  I mean, this sounds like a really sick young man. 

COSBY:  Yes, you know, and Steve Huff, you‘ve been looking at the sort of Internet conversations from the blogs online.  Tell us about night raids.  There‘s some attribution to night raids, Steve Huff? 

STEVE HUFF, CRIME BLOGGER:  As far as I know the night raids was something that was picked up by David Ludwig and his friend Sam Lure (ph), who goes by Tehtora on Zanga, Tehtora.

And they would dress up in kind of ninja style clothing, and basically do what maybe the Manson family would have called creepy crawl places, which is climbing in checking the place out without ever actually doing anything. 

And apparently they had put—and this is on the videotape that is mentioned in those court papers.  Apparently these guys had gone ahead and gone into someone‘s house, but passing cars stopped whatever their plan appeared to be. 

COSBY:  You know, it‘s so weird, Steven, because on one hand, Steve Huff, you know, you see those things as wacky things.  And then there‘s all these religious inferences.  It‘s like these two different personalities. 

There‘s a reference to a place called the barn, Steve Huff. 

HUFF:  The barn, that was a Zanga blog.  I found that today.  And apparently the barn was an idea had by David Ludwig and Sam Lure.  It‘s a piece—it‘s on Ludwig property. 

And according to Ludwig, who wrote the text in the blog, the guy were fixing it up to be some kind of gathering place for the kids, who I— sounded like the kids that went to church with them. 

COSBY:  Incredible, really interesting to see the different personalities.  Both of you thank you very much. 

And still ahead, everybody, talk about sneaky.  Wait until you see what a designer is selling that actually helps people sneak across the border into the United States.  Stay tuned.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This here is an area that is used for by human and drug smugglers.  This is a foot path here where it‘s been used so much by human and drug smugglers, bringing across, as you can see.


COSBY:  Well, the people protecting America‘s borders are understaffed and they‘re underfunded, as I saw first-hand in my recent visit there, to the Texas/Mexican border just a few weeks ago.

But now, their job may be getting even tougher.  Illegal immigrants are getting some new help crossing the border with these special sneakers that you see here.  These sneakers are equipped with compasses, flashlights and even maps of the routes across the border.  And, they are free.

We‘re joined now by Judy Werthein, she‘s the designer of the Brinco shoes.  Tell us about these sneakers.  And they‘re getting a lot of fireworks.  A lot of people are a little livid about it.  Are you surprised about the controversy it‘s sparking?

JUDI WERTHEIN, BRINCO SNEAKER DESIGNER:  No, actually, it‘s interesting, because basically—what I am, an artist, a visual artist.  I was invited to the area of the border at San Diego and Tijuana for an exhibition.  They also invited, like 23, other artists from over the world.

COSBY:  And who do you give these to?  Who do give the sneakers too?

WERTHEIN:  This was supposed to be a project of public art, so it‘s a pieces that is not in a museum of a gallery.  The thing that caught my attention the most when I went there, my first trip, was the migrants.  So, I decided to work on a piece that was related to that.  And I decided to create a fictional company, which is Brinco, as any other American company does.

COSBY:  But who are you giving these to?  Who exactly are getting these free sneakers that are what, $215 in a designer store?

WERTHEIN:  Right, these are given to migrants in Tijuana.

COSBY:  But aren‘t you inspiring them?  I mean, the list is—and in fact, I was hearing some other reports that it was illegal if these were just the regular routes that anybody can take.  But, when you‘re giving them flashlights, compasses, pain killers.  Aren‘t you saying here, look, I‘m going to help you go across the border illegally?

WERTHEIN:  No, you have to consider this is an art object.  And an art object is a representation of something that happens.  All these meanings embodied within this, but that is not going to make or increase immigration or whatever.  Immigration is going to happen anyway.

COSBY:  Show me the map if you could.  Because the map is basically showing just the regular routes that anybody can take. 

WERTHEIN:  It‘s a representation of the border, basically.

COSBY:  And these are all the different locations, But aren‘t you saying, look, here‘s a good place to go?  Here‘s how easy it is, here‘s a flashlight.  Let me just hold your hand.  Why don‘t you give them a boat?

WERTHEIN:  Well, not really.  Believe me, to cross the border, a sneaker is not going to solve the problem that any migrant is going to have. 

COSBY:  But aren‘t you inspiring them?  Aren‘t you saying to them, here‘s a little push.

WERTHEIN:  I‘m not inspiring them.  You know what is inspiring them?  To get a better life and to bring food to their tables.  That is what inspires a migrant to cross the border in these terrible conditions.  Believe me, it‘s not a pleasant trip.  It‘s not something that you would wish to go through.

COSBY:  No, believe me, I was down there, I saw it.

WERTHEIN:  If these people go through all this and even they die, it‘s because there‘s a very, very important reason behind this.

COSBY:  I can tell you first hand, it is a horrible situation happening.

WERTHEIN:  Exactly.

COSBY:  And I absolutely feel for those folks down there, because it is atrocious, what they‘re going through.

Real quick, how many folks have received the sneakers?  How many are you giving them to?

WERTHEIN:  We did a production of 1,000 sneakers.  And I gave away half of the production.  Half of the production is for sale in the United States at $215.  The thing is, that the same object acts differently at both sides of the border.  On the Tijuana side, it‘s a utilitarian thing because people don‘t even have shoes, really, these people.  And on the American side, it becomes and object of desire, and a collectible, and something fashionable.  And it‘s responded to a society of consumerism.

COSBY:  Well, Judy Werthein, thank you.  It‘s definitely thought-provoking, it‘s interesting, especially having just come back from there.  Thank you very much, we appreciate it.

WERTHEIN:  Thank you so much, Rita.

COSBY:  Still ahead everybody, the man behind some of the fiercest fighters in the United States, is putting some of his fight into helping Hurricane Katrina victims.  Stay tuned.


COSBY:  And boxing promoter Don King personally distributed 1,500 turkeys in Baton Rouge.  His turkey tour is helping Hurricane Katrina victims.  He personally gave out 1,500 turkeys in Baton Rouge.  That‘s something he‘s been doing for 40 years.  We‘re going to be there next week.

And now Joe Scarborough starts.


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