updated 11/23/2005 11:26:34 PM ET 2005-11-24T04:26:34

Guests: Owen Lafave, Gerold Dompig, Jamie Skeeters, Robert Beyer, John Powers, Billy Joe Daugherty

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  Coming up, the Florida teacher admitted to having sex with her 14-year-old student not serving any time.  Her not-so-pleased ex-husband joins us. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABRAMS (voice-over):  Owen Lafave only married for 11 months believes his ex should be behind bars.  He joins us live.

And an ABRAMS REPORT exclusive in the Natalee Holloway case, Aruban authorities determine that a crucial audiotape, presumably of one of the suspects talking about having sex with Natalee that night is not exactly what it seemed.  The Aruban police chief is with us. 

And a pastor punched by a member of his congregation continues his sermon with blood running down his face.  He‘s with us as well. 

The program about justice starts now.  

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ABRAMS:  Hi everyone.  First up on the docket, the teacher avoided jai jail time even though she admitted having sex with her 14-year-old student.  Well the prosecutors, defense and others may have thought it was a fair resolution to avoid a trial, but Debra Lafave‘s ex husband, Owen, doesn‘t think so.  Before we talk to him, her lawyer told NBC this morning that Debra was mentally ill. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FITZGIBBONS, DEBRA LAFAVE‘S ATTORNEY:  She also suffers from a very serious mental illness and we were prepared to explain that at trial and I think any juror who would have listened to this defense would have had a great deal of sympathy and understanding for her. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS:  Owen who was married to Debra for only 11 months before her arrest says his ex-wife is a sexual predator and that she should have gone to prison.  In fact, he‘s making a documentary film about the case, its impact on the community, and the disturbing trend of teachers having sex with young students. 

Joining us now is Owen Lafave.  Owen thanks for coming in.  Appreciate it. 

OWEN LAFAVE, DEBRA LAFAVE‘S EX-HUSBAND:  Dan thanks for having me.

ABRAMS:  All right.  So bottom line, you‘re not happy with this.

LAFAVE:  I‘m not happy with it. 

ABRAMS:  Why? 

LAFAVE:  I think it‘s irresponsible and I question the message that we‘re sending to our educators, as well as our children that you know in fact it‘s not that bad to have sex with one of your students.  I mean there‘s no jail time.  There‘s no way to persuade these teachers not to act in this type of manner. 

ABRAMS:  Is it—is there anything about this that‘s personal that‘s you saying you know what, I married this woman.  She totally embarrassed me.  She humiliated me and as a result I want her to suffer for that reason.

ABRAMS:  You know, Dan, I‘m not naive.  I mean that is a possibility.  However, if it was me in that circumstance, a male, I guarantee, I would be in jail right now serving at least a five to 10 year sentence. 

ABRAMS:  Let me play a piece of sound from her attorney talking this morning about her mental—number two—her mental state. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FITZGIBBONS:  I don‘t think she‘s a threat in the traditional way we think of things like this.  I think this was a setting that she won‘t be in again.  And—but it‘s important that she does stay with her medication and stay in her psychiatric health here. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS:  What do you make of it?  True?  Did she have psychiatric problems?  Did you know that she was on medication?

LAFAVE:  She was.  And she was being treated and maybe it‘s just a function of me underestimating how serious they were, but you know I thought they were minor.  I didn‘t think she was insane, obviously and you know she was being treated for them. 

ABRAMS:  She has reached out to you since she was arrested, has she not?

LAFAVE:  She has.  I mean we‘ve talked a number of times, obviously through the divorce, you know but for the most part I mean communication is no longer. 

ABRAMS:  What does she say? 

LAFAVE:  I mean it‘s a number of different times, but I think the time you‘re referring to in particular is after I‘d given an interview, she called up and essentially just berated me for going on television and talking about it. 

ABRAMS:  Now, what right does she think she has to be telling you?  I mean I would think that at this point, you know you could kind of do or say whatever you want and she should say look, do what you need to do. 

LAFAVE:  You would think and one of the most humorous things was that you know she had told me I should be ashamed of myself for talking and you know that‘s something obviously I can throw right back to her that she should be ashamed of herself acting in the manner in which she did...

ABRAMS:  Did you say that to her?

LAFAVE:  Of course. 

ABRAMS:  And? 

LAFAVE:  I mean the conversation was lost.  I mean it was just nonsense. 

ABRAMS:  Did she seem coherent...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  Is she the same person that you knew back then just with a—with now—with a sordid past. 

LAFAVE:  You know I haven‘t gotten an opportunity to talk to her a lot.  But you know the woman that got arrested was not the woman I married, so I mean it‘s—that‘s a tough question to answer. 

ABRAMS:  What kind of time do you think she should have gotten?

LAFAVE:  You know I think maybe a year or two would have been sufficient and then obviously, I‘m glad to hear that she‘s getting psychiatric help because she needs it and I hope she takes an opportunity to turn her life around. 

ABRAMS:  What do you make of this comment?  This is from July the 18th and this is what her lawyer said about why she simply can‘t and shouldn‘t go to prison. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FITZGIBBONS:  To place an attractive young woman in that kind of hellhole is like putting a piece of raw meat in with the lions.  I‘m not sure that Debbie would be able to survive. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS:  Would you be concerned for her safety if she was in prison?

LAFAVE:  You know, I‘m not sure she would survive.  She‘s not a strong person mentally. 

ABRAMS:  So does that make you rethink whether you‘d want her to go to prison or you just have no sympathy for her at this point, right?

LAFAVE:  You know I don‘t.  I don‘t.  I really feel that she just doesn‘t understand the gravity of her actions.  She doesn‘t think what she did was as wrong as it really is.

ABRAMS:  Does she feel bad towards you? 

LAFAVE:  I don‘t believe she does.  I mean in court she apologized to everybody but me. 

ABRAMS:  You talked about the obsessive-compulsive disorder and some of the other things...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  ... that she was suffering.  Is what her lawyers describing well beyond anything that you ever saw? 

LAFAVE:  I think so.  It‘s (UNINTELLIGIBLE) think that I experienced when I was with her.  You know she‘s undergone psychiatric evaluations.  You know I think three of them actually through the course of the trial and or at least...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  You look so happy in all these pictures.  Were you? 

LAFAVE:  We were happy.  I mean it‘s something I think that just shocked everybody including myself.  I mean things were fine. 

ABRAMS:  So these pictures aren‘t—you know this isn‘t staged stuff. 

I mean you guys really were that happy. 

LAFAVE:  No, we were happy.  I mean as far as I knew, I mean I had the best life imaginable. 

ABRAMS:  It was—I think I said obsessive compulsive.  I think it was also—it was bipolar or obsessive compulsive...

LAFAVE:  Both.

ABRAMS:  OK. 

LAFAVE:  Both. 

ABRAMS:  The documentary film that you‘re doing, that you‘re working on, tell me about that.

LAFAVE:   Well, I mean, it‘s going to delve into a number of things including why teachers are acting this behavior, if it‘s something that‘s happening more frequently as well as the fact that you know when something like this happens, it creates an enormous amount of victims and pain and destroys lives.  It‘s not something that should be romanticized like it has been in the media. 

ABRAMS:  See, I‘ve been one who‘s been saying in some of these cases, I do feel sorry for the women.  I do impose something of a double standard in the sense that I‘m more concerned with male sexual predators as a society than I am female sexual predators and as a result, I think we need to send a message that is firmer to male sexual predators than the female.  It doesn‘t mean the female should get off.  It doesn‘t mean that the women shouldn‘t be punished, but it means to me as a society, I am far more concerned about male sexual predators. 

LAFAVE:  However, most male sexual predators have been victimized, so in essence if we stop the female sexual predators who prey on the male, you know we‘re hoping to prevent them from becoming sexual predators later on...

ABRAMS:  Except a lot of male sexual predators are probably preyed on

by men...

LAFAVE:  A lot of them...

ABRAMS:  ... as well.  Yes...

LAFAVE:  A lot of them are.  A lot of them are, but there‘s a good portion they are preyed upon by women.

ABRAMS:  Yes, but the bottom line is there are more male sexual predators out there than women. 

LAFAVE:  There are.  I agree...

ABRAMS:  I mean we in the media are covering a lot of these female sexual predators.  What do you think, for example, this other case of Beth Geisel, this woman up in New York State convicted for having sex with a 16-year-old.  She also had sex with three 17 years old.  Not charged with that because that was legal, actually in the state of New York. 

And you know the judge felt bad for her, as do I.  I mean she‘s an alcoholic.  These guys were like sitting there setting up a situation where they could all watch each other having sex with her.  It does seem to be different than the case of Debra because that was a 14-year-old. 

LAFAVE:  Yes, the case is different and you and I talked before about the difference in age and how much you mature in that timeframe, but you know in that case I mean she‘s an adult.  She knows better to put herself in that situation despite the fact that she‘s an alcoholic.  She should have never been there. 

ABRAMS:  No pity?

LAFAVE:  No.

ABRAMS:  Owen Lafave, thanks a lot for taking the time to come in.

LAFAVE:  Thanks Dan.

ABRAMS:  Good luck to you.  Appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  Coming up, an ABRAMS REPORT exclusive in the Natalee Holloway case.  Aruban authorities determine that a crucial audiotape presumably of one of the suspects talking about having sex with Natalee that night is not exactly what it seemed.  The Aruban police chief is with us. 

Her boyfriend allegedly killed her parents.  Now the lawyer for Kara Ann Borden tells us exactly what she knew about the crime before they fled together. 

And later, why is this pastor turning the other cheek after a member of his congregation slugged him?  The pastor joins us coming up. 

Your e-mails abramsreport@msnbc.com.  I know you‘re all going to write in angry at me about what I‘m saying about the women and the men.  I know.  I know.  But bring them on in.  I respond at the end of the show.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  ... breaking news out of Aruba.  Results are in from Holland on that audiotaped interview with Deepak Kalpoe, one of the three suspects, in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, the last people to see Natalee the night she disappeared.  The tapes were thought to be a bombshell in the investigation.  Just the evidence the prosecution and the authorities needed to start bringing people in back for questioning.

(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)

J. SKEETERS:  And the question I‘ll ask you is if you intentionally killed her?

DEEPAK:  No. 

J. SKEETERS:  If it was an accident I can help all of you.  And if you guys were partying, even if someone had given her a date drug, I‘m sure she had sex with all of you. 

DEEPAK:  She did.  You‘d be surprised how simple it was. 

(END AUDIOTAPE)

ABRAMS:  Had sex with all of you.  Well authorities in Holland now say that tape was doctored.  That some parts of the interview are accurate, but not all of it. 

Joining me now on the phone, once again, Gerold Dompig, the deputy police chief in Aruba.  Chief, thanks for coming back on the program.  All right, so tell us what you‘ve learned. 

GEROLD DOMPIG, ARUBAN DEPUTY POLICE CHIEF (via phone):  Well we received the report today and the first conclusion is that the Skeeters‘ tape, the CD-ROM we received from Skeeters and the VHF tapes we received through the FBI are probably not manipulated.  So that‘s a good thing. 

What was a negative though, is the fact that what was said on the tape doesn‘t match the transcript that we all saw on the “Dr. Phil” show.  And the second conclusion of the forensic institute was that the “Dr. Phil” footage was manipulated with. 

ABRAMS:  All right, so let‘s just sort all this out.  Did—are they willing then to verify that Deepak Kalpoe did in fact say in response to the question, if it was an accident I can help all of you.  If you guys were partying, even if someone had given her a date rape drug, I‘m sure she had sex with all of you that his response was she did.  You‘d be—his response was she did.  You‘d be surprised how simple it was.  Are you convinced that, that response is legitimate? 

DOMPIG:  Not yet.  Because the first finding of the forensic institute is that they hear Deepak saying—denying, saying no, she didn‘t. 

ABRAMS:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

DOMPIG:  So there were four investigators separately from the institute that conducted the test and they all came up with “no she didn‘t.”  But what bothers us still is that the other part after that it was strange in a complete sentence.  So in any case, we are glad that we—almost a week ago, we sent an official request to the FBI to conduct the same test and as I understood today from Mr. Skeeters, he already handed his laptop over to the FBI, so that will speed up things. 

ABRAMS:  Let me just—I‘m going to bring Jamie Skeeters in this conversation.  He‘s the person who actually conducted the interview with Deepak Kalpoe and we‘re talking about the “Dr. Phil”.  The reason that we‘re talking about that is because that‘s where Jamie Skeeters first played this audiotape. 

If you can hang on for a minute, Chief Dompig.  Let me bring in to the conversation...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  ... polygraph expert Jamie Skeeters, the man who conducted this interview with Deepak Kalpoe.  All right, so Jamie look, the chief is saying, yes, a lot of it is valid, but on the key question, the most important question that you got answered on this tape and that is that Deepak Kalpoe was saying that she had sex with all of them.  You‘d be surprised how simple it was.  That the experts in Holland say that he actually said just the opposite. 

JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXPERT (via phone):  Well I talked with the chief, excuse me, a few hours earlier.  Because I was shocked because I know those tapes weren‘t tampered with and the chief indicated and he‘s on the other end, that my tapes that I surrendered to him, the DVD, was authentic, not tampered and pure.  Is that correct? 

ABRAMS:  Chief? 

DOMPIG:  That is correct. 

SKEETERS:  Yes, so I just want to make sure because I was worried about my credibility.  Where we had the problem and cut me loose if I get too long on this...

ABRAMS:  Let me just—let me cut right to the chase here.  Do you—are you standing by the question and answer that is so crucial in this case, the notion that one of the suspects, Deepak Kalpoe said that she did, in reference to she had sex with all of you, you‘d be surprised how simple it was.  Do you stand by the fact that he answered that question in that way? 

SKEETERS:  Not only yes, but heck yes on the DVD tape that I sent Chief Dompig that I downloaded off my hard drive. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  So Chief, what‘s the issue? 

DOMPIG:  Well, it‘s easy.  I told Skeeters, I think we have one question answered and that I‘m very glad that the tapes are authentic.  The second question that, which the forensic institute says is that to give us a complete transcription and a complete test of what is being said they—as—same as the FBI, they need the original material.  So as I understood (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is now in the hands of the FBI.

And after they have conducted their test, we will immediately send it to Holland for them to proceed.  But—so it‘s—we‘re halfway there you could say.

ABRAMS:  But Chief, it sounds like what the people in Holland are saying is that the answer is not the one that—I mean again this is really important here.  And I know I don‘t have to tell you how important it is...

DOMPIG:  This is really important. 

ABRAMS:  Yes, I don‘t need to tell you how important it is.

DOMPIG:  That is right.

ABRAMS:  But the bottom line is...

DOMPIG:  It‘s important.

ABRAMS:  ... that the people in Holland are telling you that this all-important line wasn‘t actually said. 

DOMPIG:  That is correct.  And I also had the—my investigators listen to the tapes, the Skeeters one,  and they basically hear the same denial.  So that‘s why I told Jamie, I said Jamie, I wish you could come to Aruba as soon as possible for you to hear this tape yourself and really that‘s something that we have to clarify.

ABRAMS:  Let me play this again because I‘m still a little bit confused.  I‘m going to play this tape again.  This is the key question and answer that has been discussed for the last few months in this case.  Here it is again.

(BEGIN AUDIOTAPE)

J. SKEETERS:  And the question I‘ll ask you is if you intentionally killed her?

DEEPAK:  No.

J. SKEETERS:  If it was an accident, I can help all of you.  And if you guys were partying, even if someone had given her a date drug, I‘m sure she had sex with all of you.

DEEPAK:  She did.  You‘d be surprised how simple it was.

(END AUDIOTAPE)

ABRAMS:  All right, so Jamie Skeeters, what the—you know we‘re listening to that tape again.  And unless someone doctored the tape, I mean, it sounds to me pretty clear as to what we hear on that tape. 

SKEETERS:  It is and I can settle this real quick what it is.  When I downloaded the DVDs, the program off my laptop to a DVD I sent that to the “Phil” show.  He in turn downloaded my original DVD to VHS‘s for purposes that you television people do.  He had to take a two-hour interview and cut it into about 12 seconds. 

Yes, he went into those VCR tapes or VHS tapes, not mine, but into his for—to put it on the show.  Definitely, if anybody looks at that, you‘re going to see where they cut pieces out here and there to put it on.  But my tape, it‘s obvious.  Even after he caught me by surprise when he said we did, I said oh.

ABRAMS:  So where are they hearing this answer?  No—I mean again, what...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  ... the people at Holland seem to be hearing is an answer from Deepak Kalpoe, which is just the opposite of the answer that we thought we heard. 

SKEETERS:  Well it‘s—when you hear the regular DVD and I talked to Gerold and Gerold says yes, I can hear what he‘s saying on your tape, but those VHS tapes are not that clear and they probably aren‘t.  I‘ve never heard them.  I would imagine...

ABRAMS:  So wait.

SKEETERS:  ... one generation...

ABRAMS:  Wait, wait, wait...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  Chief, the people—the authorities in Holland were only listening to a VCR quality tape as opposed to the DVD? 

DOMPIG:  No, no, no, no, no, they got both.  They got the DVD and the VHS and they both matched.  The only thing that didn‘t match was the “Dr.  Phil” footage and—because it was cut in—right at the point between the question and the answer and that‘s strange...

ABRAMS:  But...

DOMPIG:  But anyway I told Skeeters also.  I told Jamie it‘s a waste of time to talk about the “Phil”...

ABRAMS:  Right.  I agree. 

DOMPIG:  And that‘s why I want to know what is exactly said on the authentic tape because now we know that the tapes are authentic and we have to be clear on what is exactly...

ABRAMS:  And he is saying...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  And Jamie Skeeters...

DOMPIG:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

ABRAMS:  ... correct me if I‘m wrong, but you are saying that the question was, I‘m sure she had sex with all of you and the answer was, she did.  You‘d be surprised how simple it was, correct? 

SKEETERS:  It‘s we did...

(CROSSTALK)

SKEETERS:  ... be surprised...

(CROSSTALK)

DOMPIG:  And that‘s what—not what the Dutch experts hear.  That‘s why I need some clarification from different sources to come in and listen to the footage—the tape, the DVD that Jamie sent...

ABRAMS:  All right.

DOMPIG:  ... and also the FBI could check the material. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Jamie Skeeters, you‘re now going to go down to Aruba to sort this out, right?

SKEETERS:  No, Gerold and I we‘re on the same page.  I know there‘s things that Gerold as a chief—I‘m a former chief—you just can‘t tell the public to keep integrity on the case.  I‘m working with him.

ABRAMS:  All right.

SKEETERS:  He‘ll buy the first beer, I‘ll buy the dinner...

ABRAMS:  Oh...

SKEETERS:  ... and we‘ll get it straightened out.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Good.  That‘s good to hear.  Final question, Chief Dompig, what‘s happening with Deepak as a result of being able to say that these tapes are authentic? 

DOMPIG:  Well I still hope that he feels that we‘re not finished with him.  Let me put it that way. 

ABRAMS:  And does that mean that you are not finished with him?  Do you intend to call him back in for questioning? 

DOMPIG:  Of course.  But I‘m not giving any timeframe, but—and this goes for all of these boys, so not only for Deepak. 

ABRAMS:  All right.

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  Chief Gerold Dompig and Jamie Skeeters, thanks a lot. 

Appreciate it.

SKEETERS:  Thank you.  Take care now.

DOMPIG:  OK.  You‘re welcome.  Thanks.

ABRAMS:  Coming up, new details emerge about how an 18-year-old boy packed his gun, drove to his girlfriend‘s house and allegedly murdered her parents.  What exactly did his 14-year-old girlfriend know?  Her lawyer is with us. 

And later an Oklahoma reverend gets a solid left from one of his parishioners at a prayer service.  He‘s decided to turn the other cheek, literally and forgive.  He‘s with us live. 

And our continuing series, “Manhunt: Sex Offenders on the Loose”, our effort to help find missing sex offenders before they strike.  Our search today is in Iowa. 

Authorities need your help finding Joseph Lee Campbell.  He‘s 25, 6‘2”, 196.  He was convicted of aggravated criminal sexual abuse in ‘98, has not registered with the state.

If you‘ve got any information on his whereabouts, please call the Iowa Sex Offender Registry, 515-281-4976.

Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  Coming up, new details emerge about how an 18-year-old boy packed guns, drove to his girlfriend‘s house and allegedly murdered her parents.  What exactly did his 14-year-old girlfriend know?  Her lawyer is with us after the headlines.

(NEWS BREAK) 

ABRAMS:  We‘re learning more about what happened when 18-year-old David Ludwig allegedly shot and killed the parents of his 14-year-old girlfriend Kara Borden over a week ago.  According to court filings, Ludwig waived his right against self-incrimination after he and Kara were apprehended in Indiana and told investigators how he killed Cathryn and Michael Borden.

Ludwig said Kara spent the night at his place.  That he took her home around 5:30.  Ludwig left, expecting to get a text message from Kara she got to her room safely without being seen by her parents.  When that didn‘t happen by 6:00 a.m., Ludwig says he text messaged Kara, called her, no answer.

Then at 6:15, Ludwig says Kara called and told him she‘d been caught.  That her parents were there.  He needed to come over.  That‘s what Ludwig did after arming himself with a Glock automatic, a 22-caliber pistol and a hunting knife.

Ludwig says he and Kara‘s father, Michael, talked for about 30 to 45

minutes, but that after Kara‘s dad said the relationship with Kara could

not go on and that things couldn‘t continue as they were.  Ludwig says he -

quote—“made up his mind” and shot Michael Borden.  Then turning back down the hallway and into the living room, Ludwig says he shot Cathryn Borden as she was—quote—“getting out of her chair.”  

Joining me now on the phone is Robert Beyer, Kara Borden‘s attorney. 

Thank you very much, sir, for coming on the program.  We appreciate it. 

ROBERT BEYER, KARA BORDEN‘S ATTORNEY (via phone):  My pleasure, Dan. 

ABRAMS:  All right, so the position of Kara Borden is that she did see her boyfriend kill her parents? 

BEYER:  Well, that‘s not clear in the record, but one would assume based on where she was in the proximity in the things that she saw part of that, yes. 

ABRAMS:  And she then gets in the car with him.  Now, he talks at points about sort of wanting to start a new life.  This is reading from the statement to police.  Borden told Ludwig that she wanted to stay with him and they drove west with the intent to get as far away as possible, get married, and start a new life.  At no time did Ludwig force her to go with him after he shot and killed her parents.  Rather she acknowledged going with him of her own free will.  True? 

BEYER:  That would be accurate, yes.

ABRAMS:  So, is there any chance that she‘s going to be charged with a crime at this point? 

BEYER:  Well, as far as is there any chance, I mean you and I both know that things can transpire in the future that we don‘t anticipate.  But based on the statements of Mr. Ludwig and we know from the filings of the Commonwealth, that there have been at least two statements taken from him and we also know that she‘s been interviewed and based on that, I don‘t anticipate any charges being filed against Kara. 

ABRAMS:  Now I know she‘s 14 years old and so when we ask these questions, you know we‘ve got to keep that in mind and remember that she‘s 14.  But was she angry after he shot her parents? 

BEYER:  Well that‘s difficult to say.  I think after he shot her parents, I think the only emotion that she would feel would be one of shock.  And actually, I don‘t think that she, based on the filings that you and I both have, that she was aware that her parents were dead until he told her that. 

ABRAMS:  But he knew—but she knew they had been shot. 

BEYER:  I think she knew that one of them had been shot. 

ABRAMS:  Was she angry at her parents at the time? 

BEYER:  There‘s nothing to indicate that she was angry at her parents, no.  In fact, in the same filing that you‘re referring to, it seemed that the conversation that was taking place in the house were anywhere from 35 to 45 minutes, depending on what you read, was a relatively calm and peaceful conversation. 

ABRAMS:  Is she now devastated? 

BEYER:  Absolutely.  I mean she‘s lost both her parents.  She‘s been displaced from her home and she‘s—like you said, she‘s 14 years old.  This is very difficult for someone our age to take, much less someone her age. 

ABRAMS:  Does she have any thoughts about Ludwig at this point? 

BEYER:  Well I don‘t know that it would be fair of me to address that at this point.  I mean she certainly is cooperating with the Commonwealth in the prosecution of Mr. Ludwig.  But you know if one of us could get inside the head of a 14-year-old girl, we wouldn‘t be doing these TV shows.

ABRAMS:  But let‘s be clear.  She has said and it‘s clear from the police reports as well, that she did not know that he was going over there to kill her parents. 

BEYER:  That‘s absolutely correct. 

ABRAMS:  It was only after the fact.  Now, has she said anything in retrospect?  Is she sorry she got in the car with him?  That‘s she‘s sorry she ever had anything to do with him?  Anything like that? 

BEYER:  Well it wouldn‘t be appropriate for me to comment on anything that she‘s particularly said.  But I would imagine that anybody would be remorseful for that kind of conduct.

ABRAMS:  And what do you think about the fact that the kidnapping charge has been dropped against him?  It sounds like you‘re saying that that‘s appropriate because the kidnapping charge would require some level of force or coercion on his part in terms of taking her. 

BEYER:  Well that‘s correct.  And we think it is appropriate.  And that‘s something that we expected would have occurred probably at the preliminary hearing, which is scheduled for December.  But in light of the defense filing to preserve evidence, I think that just accelerated the prosecution‘s withdrawal of that particular charge. 

ABRAMS:  Can you tell us how they met?

BEYER:  I don‘t know exactly how they met, but my recollection is that they met through a home schooling group. 

ABRAMS:  That‘s what we‘ve been told.  I mean...

BEYER:  Yes.

ABRAMS:  ... you know we‘ve been told it was through a home schooling group, but you don‘t know any more details about it?

BEYER:  I do not, no.

ABRAMS:  And do you know anything the e-mails that they exchanged? 

BEYER:  Well the government of course is at this point trying to get copies of e-mails and text messages and other electronic communication communications between the two of them.  But there‘s nothing in those that would indicate to me that I know of, that would lead to any culpability on her part. 

ABRAMS:  Robert Beyer, thank you for taking the time to come on the program.  We appreciate it.

BEYER:  It‘s my pleasure, Dan.  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  We are also learning more about David Ludwig.  Internet journalist and blogger John Powers says he got access to David Ludwig‘s e-mail through an anonymous source and he found out a lot about Ludwig and his relationships with other girls. 

Joining me now is John Powers of ActionReport.net.  Thanks a lot for coming on the program.  Appreciate it.

All right, so it sounds like from the e-mails that you‘ve seen, that Ludwig was using his religion as an effort to sort of get women? 

JOHN POWERS, ACTIONREPORT.NET:  Yes, that‘s exactly what I saw.  That the more determination he showed for—and his love for God, it help helped substantiate the basis for a relationship, Dan.

ABRAMS:  And I said women, I probably should have said girls.  I mean you‘re talking about—right.  I mean how old are these girls that he‘s...

POWERS:  Yes, from all the inferences, I suspect them all to be minors save one. 

ABRAMS:  How convinced are you that these e-mails are legitimate?

POWERS:  I‘m 1,000 percent convinced.  When I received the e-mails, of course, you know, I went to each person‘s Web site and you know Web log and constructed a timeline that all of a sudden everything started fitting together between the e-mails and the exchanges and the language that were on everybody‘s Web site, on the Zanga (ph) sites and so forth and so on.

So I was convinced at that point, but I still wanted further, you know something else to confirm it.  So I would contact each—some of the people that he had exchanges with and I didn‘t receive a response until two days ago.  I received an anonymous tip from somebody and they said that they were in a chat room discussing a topic that Steve Huff had on his blog site and that person went to Steve Huff‘s blog site and Steve Huff had referenced me pertaining to some information that I had and this anonymous tipster said that I know somebody who was close to David, I think you should have a look at this person and here‘s his number. 

ABRAMS:  The bottom line is everything matched up.  Meaning...

POWERS:  Oh yes, absolutely...

ABRAMS:  Right.

POWERS:  ... everything matched up.

ABRAMS:  You researched it; you looked at who—which ones matched with which ones.  You sent us something that I‘ve just gotten...

POWERS:  Yes.

ABRAMS:  ... and that is what you believe is an e-mail from somebody named KBB and those would be the same initials as Kara Borden...

POWERS:  That‘s correct.

ABRAMS:  ... and there‘s a set of questions that it appears that this person wrote and then answered. 

Number 18:  If you could change anything about me...

POWERS:  Right.

ABRAMS:  ... would you?  Nope, you are perfect from head to toe and I like you just as you are.  Smiles.

Would you have sex with me?

The response was very big grin.

Would you come over for no reason just to hang out if no one was home?

Sure.

Will you post this so I can fill it out for you?  You already did it for me, so no I won‘t.  Love you so much, KBB.

And your belief is that this is an e-mail from Kara to David Ludwig before all this happened. 

POWERS:  Yes, I absolutely do believe that and I‘ve also posted that on my Web site so people can go ahead and check that out or at least gain access to that information...

ABRAMS:  And finally, let me just give an example...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  ... of where you say that you believe that he was using religion.  He‘s responding to some girl in Hawaii.  They‘ve gotten in trouble or something.  They‘ve gotten caught and Ludwig responds I made my own choices and honestly I don‘t regret them although I do regret getting caught.

Sometimes I wonder if all the scars in my heart will ever heal, but I know that Jesus has taken away the pain.  And I‘m so grateful for that.

Do you have anything to indicate that Ludwig actually did not believe in the religious references that he was making?

POWERS:  No, I think that he did believe it or at least he was conditioned to believe.  That was his value set and you know, that‘s what they all had in common.  And I think that‘s what he used to you know fulfill his affinity to satiate his desire with these girls. 

ABRAMS:  John Powers, thanks very much for coming on the program.  I should say we have not been able to independently confirm these e-mails, but John Powers...

POWERS:  I‘ve independently confirmed...

ABRAMS:  No, you have.  I‘m saying we haven‘t...

POWERS:  Absolutely.

ABRAMS:  Right.  Thank you very much for coming on the program.

POWERS:  Thank you, Dan.  I appreciate it. 

ABRAMS:  Coming up, the pastor who‘s willing to forgive a member of his congregation who punched him in the face, he joins us live. 

And later I separate from fact from fiction about Thanksgiving, the pilgrims, the Indians and the huge feast of deer and duck.  That‘s right, no turkey.  It‘s my “Closing Argument”.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  Coming up, on tape a pastor punched in the face by a member of his congregation.  That pastor joins us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  The Bible teaches that if someone strikes you, you should turn the other cheek.  Well in Oklahoma a pastor actually had the opportunity to practice that this weekend.  It was all caught on tape.

He was talking about the biblical story of Paul and Silas.  Pastor Billy Joe Daugherty was punched in the face by a man in his congregation and then continued to go after him.  Pastor Daugherty suffered a black eye, needed two stitches, but he went on preaching, even with blood running down his face. 

Pastor Daugherty says he doesn‘t want to press charges and even met with the guy yesterday, telling him that he would pray for him.  Joining me now is the pastor, Billy Joe Daugherty.  Pastor thanks very much for coming on the program.  We appreciate it.

PASTOR BILLY JOE DAUGHERTY, VICTORY CHRISTIAN CHURCH:  Thank you, Dan. 

ABRAMS:  How are you feeling?

DAUGHERTY:  It‘s a joy to be here.

ABRAMS:  How are you feeling?

DAUGHERTY:  Oh, I‘m feeling great.  Still rejoicing. 

ABRAMS:  Your eye...

DAUGHERTY:  Yes.

ABRAMS:  Your eye is coming along? 

DAUGHERTY:  It‘s a lot better than it was that first night and the next day and by the way, this man was not a member of our congregation.  He was a person that had been released from an institution about 70 miles from us, just for a weekend and I didn‘t know the man. 

ABRAMS:  And that—I think that‘s an important clarification.  I appreciate you making that.  Tell me what happened.  I mean you are—every time I watch it, you were—you‘ve seen this tape, right? 

DAUGHERTY:  Yes. 

ABRAMS:  What do you think...

DAUGHERTY:  I was preaching on...

ABRAMS:  Go ahead.

DAUGHERTY:  Well, I was preaching on praise and Thanksgiving, no matter what happens to you and told the story about a man in the Bible, Paul, who had preached and got beaten and then put in jail and decided to go ahead and praise God and had a miracle release and people got saved out it, invited people to come forward and receive Christ, people to come to get their lives right with God and then invited people who wanted to make a decision to be praisers and thanks-givers and their life. 

At that moment, many people came and I walked down to pray with some of them and I came to this man and I was standing there just a few seconds when he (UNINTELLIGIBLE) popped me right there and of course, the tape shows my head going back in my body and then he grabbed me from behind and went after me again and I‘m grateful to some friends there who held onto him and it wasn‘t the full blow.  Just glancing.  And it was time to get back up on the stage and finish praying for people and telling our people to forgive the man...

ABRAMS:  Wow.

DAUGHERTY:  ... for us to go ahead and praise God and...

ABRAMS:  Did you ever think to yourself that you might not be ready to get back up there and continue?  I mean that—with blood streaming down your cheek? 

DAUGHERTY:  No, that was the immediate thing that came to me.  Because I had preached this message three times that morning.  This is the third time.  And it‘s really been a way of life for us.  That no matter what happens, we give thanks, we praise God.  Not necessarily for what happens but the fact that God still loves us. 

Jesus still died for us.  He still was raised from the dead.  He still is the Son of God and that we have him in our hearts.  So no matter what happens, we can keep praising him and thanking him.  So that is just rolling through my mind, not only for me to do it, but our people who saw it and then it‘s so important to forgive...

ABRAMS:  And you met...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  And speaking of forgiving, you actually went to the jail where he‘s being held and you met with him? 

DAUGHERTY:  Had a meeting...

ABRAMS:  How was that? 

DAUGHERTY:  It was good.  He‘s suffering some things that have happened in his life for many years.  He‘s got a lot of issues in his mind and in his heart and we‘re praying for those to be straightened out...

ABRAMS:  What did he say to you? 

DAUGHERTY:  He‘ll be returned to the center where he‘s been.  And you know he‘s—still a lot things are incoherent for him.  He‘s not putting everything together in the right away in his thinking.  So he needs prayer and we‘re still praying for him. 

ABRAMS:  And did you tell him that you‘ve forgiven him? 

DAUGHERTY:  Yes.  Most definitely.  I hold nothing against him.  No problem.  You know, and that really comes back.  This story to us is the story of Jesus.  When he was beaten and nails, spikes in his hands and feet and a crown of thorns on his head and his back striped.  He said Father, forgive them, they don‘t know what they‘re doing.  And that‘s the message of this hour, you know not only for what happened then but for the whole earth.  So many people‘s scars and blood is not on the outside.  It‘s on the inside. 

ABRAMS:  It‘s about living what you preach (UNINTELLIGIBLE).  This is one of those opportunities you get where you can say it and you can say it and now you‘re saying to people look, this is what I‘m doing.

DAUGHERTY:  Yes, it was time to demonstrate it.  You know put up or shut up.  And that was the time where it‘s real for us.  It‘s a way of life to do it to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and joy came all over me, inviting people to come as visitors and said hey, not everybody‘s like this guy and there was a moment of, I think, revelation to people that if you choose to get up after you‘ve been knocked down, that you can rise above it. 

So many people in our society have been hit with bad things in their family, in their finances.  Bad things in their physical body, legally and they‘re knocked down and this message says you can get up.  You may be hit, the Bible says, but you‘re not knocked down and out. 

ABRAMS:  Pastor...

DAUGHERTY:  You can rise again. 

ABRAMS:  Pastor, you deserve a lot...

DAUGHERTY:  Yes.

ABRAMS:  ... of credit and I‘m real glad to see...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  You look good and you sound great and you‘ve got a great attitude.  Thanks a lot for taking the time.  We really appreciate it and good luck to you. 

DAUGHERTY:  Thanks, Dan.  God bless you. 

ABRAMS:  Thank you.  Coming up, the program about justice getting to the bottom of how it really all went down at the first Thanksgiving back in 1623, you know that whole Pilgrims wearing buckled shoe thing, not true.  We separate fact from fiction about Thanksgiving.  It‘s my “Closing Argument”.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  My “Closing Argument”—on this program, we like to separate fact from fiction to give you the real story as opposed to the embellished heavily spun TV packaged version.  Tonight we turn our truth lens on some of the most heavily perpetuated myths about Thanksgiving. 

True:  The first Thanksgiving was probably 1623 with Pilgrims and Indians, but no wild turkey.  They actually ate deer and duck.  Wild turkey is notoriously tough birds to catch.  Not likely the Pilgrims or the Indians bothered to chase one down for their feast.

Also, the black suits and capes seen in the drawings, probably artistic license.  They were more likely wearing beige, red, yellow and green.  Dying clothes black was hard to do back then.  It took a long time as well. 

Also probably no buckled hats and shoes.  Fashion forward the Pilgrims were not and buckles didn‘t come into vogue until the late 17th Century.  Oh and the Indians were probably wearing more than loincloths, feathers and beads.  I mean it‘s 20 or 30 something degrees in November in Massachusetts.

As for all those paintings of smiling Pilgrims and Indians happily enjoying their meal, probably not the case.  The Pilgrims and the Wampanoag Indian tribe were definitely not comrades.  The Pilgrims were looking for more land and maybe some tips on how to survive the cold winter. 

The Indians were wary of the Europeans.  Think more like Tony Soprano sitting down for a pasta dinner.  He seems happy to be there but he might kill one of his dinner guests later.  As for the notion that ever since 1623, Americans have been sitting down to a Thanksgiving meal in late November, wrong.

President Abraham Lincoln liked the story of a Thanksgiving meal bringing the warring colonists and Indians together so he revived it and decided to make it a national holiday in 1863 hoping it might unite the country during the Civil War. 

So enjoy your turkey tomorrow.  It‘s a great holiday, one of the best.  But remember much of what we hear about the first Thanksgiving is just stuffing.  Oh and one more tip for tomorrow.

Your Uncle Bernie might tell you that the awful—offals are the best part of the turkey that all you need to do is mix them up with a little bit of butter to create a delicacy.  Let him have them.  They‘re the turkey‘s intestines and bowels.  Even fresh homemade butter churned by a Pilgrim isn‘t going to make those any good. 

Coming up, lots of e-mails about the teacher sex story in Florida.  Many of you saying it‘s a double standard.  I admitted the standard was double.  Next. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  As expected, lots of e-mails about the teacher sex stories.  Larry from Pennsylvania doesn‘t like the fact that I said I felt sorry for the woman who had sex with the older boys, 16 and 17, said it sounds like they took advantage of her alcoholism and the judge agreed.

“Your sexist views are repugnant to the principles of equal protection of the law and equal justice under law.  Sadly you‘ve abandoned allegiance to these lofty principles in favor of waving the tawdry banner of political correctness.”

Larry, political correctness is everyone like you saying it‘s exactly the same if it‘s a young man or a woman.  I think you‘d be hard pressed to find a group of four 16 and 17-year-old girls who would use a male teacher‘s alcoholism as a tool to get him to have sex with them while the others watch.  The P.C. thing to say is that women sexual predators are just as pervasive and dangerous as men even though it‘s just not true.

Your e-mails abramsreport—one word -- @msnbc.com.  We go through them at the end of the show. 

Chris Matthews is up next.  Have a great Thanksgiving. 

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