updated 11/29/2005 4:48:06 PM ET 2005-11-29T21:48:06

Guest: Arlene Ellis Schipper, Stanley Williams, Mike Farrell, Peter Fleming, Ken Irwin, Dave Holloway, Dennis Rodman, Katrina Szish, Stacy Phillips

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, we‘re following a developing story.  Nine crooks break out of a jail using bedsheets.  Tonight, two of them are still on the loose.  We will have the very latest live.
And Dennis Rodman is about to shock the world once again.  He‘s going to join me live in the studio.  You don‘t want to miss that.
But we start with a big development and an exclusive interview from death row with an inmate just days away from execution.  The case of former ganglord Stanley “Tookie” Williams is making headlines around the globe as he is scheduled to die on December 13.  But just this weekend, a new twist, California governor Arnold Schwarzenegger announced he‘s considering sparing Tookie Williams‘s life.
We‘ll show you my exclusive interview with Stanley “Tookie” Williams in just a minute.  It‘s his first interview since this important announcement by the governor.
But first, how did the founder of the dangerous street gang the Crips become a Nobel Peace Prize nominee and cause all this controversy?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over):  South Central Los Angeles, birthplace of one of America‘s most violent and notorious gangs, the Crips.  The gang‘s co-founder, Stanley “Tookie” Williams, moved to the tough streets of LA as a child.  He‘s seen here at the age of 10.  In 1971, he founded the Crips with a high school friend, and soon the gang and its main rivals, the Bloods, were terrorizing Los Angeles.  In 1974 alone, the gang wars claimed 70 lives, and by the end of the decade, it‘s believed LA had 30,000 active gang members.
In 1979, Williams was arrested for killing four people, a convenience store owner and the owners of a family-run motel.  To this day, Williams claims he is not responsible for the murders, but he was found guilty and sentenced to death.
Williams is now serving on death row in San Quentin, where he‘s been for almost a quarter of a century.  When I met with him last year in a tiny visitor‘s cell, he told me he was a changed man, and many agree.  Williams is now a vocal opponent of gang violence. even helping broker a truce between the Crips and the Bloods.  He‘s also written an influential series of eight children‘s books about gangs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  When I picked up the books, I had realized that if I was continuing with that gang stuff, I think I‘d end up like Tookie.
COSBY:  Williams‘s efforts have won him worldwide praise.  He‘s even been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.  And now he has high-profile supporters who are lobbying to have his life spared, including Oscar-winning actor Jamie Foxx, who played Tookie in the TV movie “Redemption.”
JAMIE FOXX, ACTOR:  If this is going to form a truce between the Bloods and Crips to stop the violence and (INAUDIBLE) in our community, it‘s not (INAUDIBLE) responsibility.
COSBY:  Williams‘s other supporters now include former Crips member turned rapper Snoop Dogg, who attended massive rallies organized outside San Quentin, along with activist Bianca Jagger and Jesse Jackson.
REVEREND JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION:  The evidence surrounding, connecting him to these crimes is inaccurate.  It is unsound.  And I would urge you, Mr. Governor, to be fair.
COSBY:  Their work may be paying off.  Just this past Friday, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said he would consider clemency for Williams.  He plans to meet with Williams‘s defense team December 8.  If Schwarzenegger denies the request, Williams will be put to death by lethal injection just five days later.
Still, there are many who believe Williams deserves the ultimate punishment, including the daughter of one of the victims.
“MS. OWENS,” DAUGHTER OF VICTIM:  I don‘t know what happened in your head.  I don‘t know the reasoning behind it.  I wasn‘t there.  I just know how it affected me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY:  And just before the show, I spoke to Stanley Williams from San Quentin prison.  I asked him how he‘s holding up with the clock ticking towards his execution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STANLEY “TOOKIE” WILLIAMS, DEATH ROW INMATE:  I‘m doing as well as could be expected.  My faith sustains me, so I‘m doing exceptionally well.
COSBY:  Are you afraid of dying?
WILLIAMS:  Well, no.  Akin to any sensible human being, I want to live, but I must say I‘m that mis-educated about mortality because no one has ever come back and—you know, to actually brief me on what to expect.  So I‘m quite ignorant in that particular area.
COSBY:  Are you worried, like any other human being, facing your mortality?
WILLIAMS:  No, because I‘m at peace.  I‘ve become a man of peace.  My redemption keeps me strong.  So no, I‘m not.
COSBY:  Why shouldn‘t you be executed?
WILLIAMS:  Well, first and foremost, I‘m innocent.  And secondly, being allowed to live enables me to continue to disseminating my positive message to youth and adults throughout this country and abroad.  And you know, lastly, being able to live, it would allow me to inevitably prove my innocence.
COSBY:  Why have you not expressed remorse for the four killings which you‘ve been convicted of?
WILLIAMS:  Well, because as you and I both know, conviction does not denote guilt.  And I‘ve been proclaiming my innocence for the longest.  So for me to express remorse or an apology, that would, as I stated before, connote culpability, which I‘m not.  In fact, it would be disingenuous on my part.
COSBY:  Why do you think a jury convicted you, then?
WILLIAMS:  A jury convicted me because of the simple fact that there was an all-white jury and because was strategy that the prosecutor at that time, Robert Martin (ph) -- he was the DA—because of the strategy that he used, the prosecutorial misconduct, the exclusion of exculpatory evidence and things of that nature, it was quite easy for them to convict me.  I mean, sitting there—here I was, a black man, extremely muscular, and I fit the bill, in a sense.
COSBY:  Do you think, then, if they execute you that they‘re executing an innocent man, in your opinion?
WILLIAMS:  I don‘t think that, I know that.  It is a fact.
COSBY:  But as the leader—as the co-founder of the Crips, you have to admit you did some bad things, correct?
WILLIAMS:  I‘ve done many bad things, but nothing of this magnitude, that‘s for sure.  And despite the fact that I was a predator...
COSBY:  Do you believe you were framed because you were the co-founder of the Crips because you were so highly visible?
WILLIAMS:  Oh, without a doubt.  Without a doubt.  There‘s no doubt in my mind about that.  You‘re absolutely correct.  That‘s exactly what‘s happened.
COSBY:  Do you think if you expressed remorse that the governor might be more inclined to grant you clemency?
WILLIAMS:  But see, it would—it would be craziness for me to express remorse for a crime or crimes that I did not commit.  That would be totally against my convictions.  It would be wrong to express remorse for something I didn‘t do.  I‘m sure you yourself, or any sound-minded individual in society, would not admit to anything that they didn‘t commit.  It would be wrong.  It would be foolish.
COSBY:  Now, if you could sit across from the governor right now, what would you say to him, Stanley?
WILLIAMS:  I‘m innocent.  And if I am allowed to live, if I receive clemency or an indefinite stay, then it would enable me to continue proliferating my messages to young adults and other individuals, as well.  And inevitably, I believe that if I‘m alive, I‘d be able to prove my innocence.
COSBY:  Who do you think committed these crimes, if it wasn‘t you?  Do you know who did it?
WILLIAMS:  No I don‘t.  I haven‘t the slightest idea.
COSBY:  Do you think the governor will offer you clemency?  What‘s your gut telling you?  Are you optimistic?
WILLIAMS:  I have faith.  And I deal with reality.  Whatever comes, comes.  I will face it, whatever it is.  That‘s the only way that I know how to address things of that ilk.  I‘m not the person to dwell upon hypotheticals.
COSBY:  Were you surprised that he said he was going to hold this hearing now on December 8?
WILLIAMS:  Well, I mean, that‘s a good thing.  It is a good thing.  It‘s—I mean, it beats a blank (ph).  It beats him not being apathetic.
COSBY:  What was your reaction when you heard that the governor will hold a hearing for your clemency?
WILLIAMS:  Well, it was more like—I said, There‘s a chance.  There‘s a chance, I mean, but the final deliberation is his.
COSBY:  Stanley, what do you think your odds are that you could get clemency, that the governor‘s going to grant it?
WILLIAMS:  Oh, that‘s a hypothetical.  I don‘t know.  I don‘t know.  All I can do is pray that I do receive clemency or, you know, some type of relief from the courts.
COSBY:  Are you optimistic?
WILLIAMS:  I feel good.
COSBY:  If the victims‘ families are watching tonight, what do you want to say to them?
WILLIAMS:  I empathize with any family, you know, who has lost a loved one, and you know, I regret that that happened to their family.  But honestly, you know, I can‘t express remorse or make an apology for crimes I did not commit.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY:  And when we come back, I asked Stanley Williams what he wants his last meal to be and who he wants to be as a witness for his execution.  He had some unusual answers.  And he‘ll also talk about an unusual encounter that he had years ago with the man who holds his fate, Arnold Schwarzenegger.  Hint: They were both pumping iron.
Plus, a surprise in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  An interview with one of the prime suspects forces the Dutch government into action.  Tonight, they‘re responding to my coverage of the case.  Why did they name this specific show?
And we‘re watching a developing story, the hunt for the crooks who made a daring jailbreak with some bedsheets.  It is all coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOXX:  Listen, I don‘t want to leave my legacy here as simply being the co-founder of the Crips, if I can keep a kid from coming to this place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY:  And that was Jamie Foxx in the powerful TV movie called “Redemption” about death row Stanley “Tookie” Williams.  Foxx is just one of a number of celebrities lobbying Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to grant Williams clemency.  If not, Williams will be killed by lethal injection on December 13.
I just spoke with Williams on the phone, and he told me that he‘s thankful to have such high-profile support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
You‘ve gotten a lot of support from lots of celebrities, like Jamie Foxx and Snoop Dogg.  What do you make of this?
WILLIAMS:  Well, I mean, as I was saying earlier, I‘m grateful.  I appreciate all the help I can get from celebrities and others alike, politicians and what have you.
COSBY:  The American public is going to be watching this interview.  What do you want to say to them?
WILLIAMS:  Well, I mean, the fact of the matter is, is that I am innocent—I must say that once again—and that this case is rife with improprieties.  There is no tangible evidence whatsoever linking me to these capital crimes.  That‘s why I‘m innocent.  Everything is predicated on hearsay from individuals with irreputable (SIC) backgrounds facing capital punishment themselves for other murders or what have you.
COSBY:  Officials at the California Department of Corrections say that you‘re still essentially associating with gang members, still running the gang from prison.  What do you say to that?
WILLIAMS:  That‘s absurd.
COSBY:  Why do you think they‘re saying that now?
WILLIAMS:  Oh, because it‘s nearing the time when I‘m scheduled to be executed.  That‘s why they‘re saying that.
COSBY:  Have you denounced gang life 100 percent?
WILLIAMS:  Yes, I have, and I continue to do so through my books and through my memoir and through conference calls, my Web site and everything that I am about.
COSBY:  Do you regret starting the Crips?
WILLIAMS:  Well, of course I regret that.  It‘s—the legacy is sanguinary and it‘s nothing to be proud of.
COSBY:  I was reading somewhere, I think it‘s “The Guardian” newspaper, Stanley—it said that you and the governor actually ran into each other in the ‘70s, when he was an actor and you were in the gangs.  You were on the beach, and he actually complimented you on your physique because you‘ve always been, you know, a body builder and working out and physically fit.  Is that true?
WILLIAMS:  Well, on my arms.  He was telling his female companion that, Those aren‘t arms, those are legs.  I was exceptionally muscular back then.
COSBY:  What are you doing to prepare, should the governor not grant you clemency?  Are you looking at last-minute appeals?  Have you thought about even somehow getting a hold of the president?
WILLIAMS:  No.  No.  No.  My attorneys are handling all of that.  I leave all of the technical aspects of the appeal up to them.
COSBY:  Will there be last-minute appeals, do you think?
WILLIAMS:  It would be a dereliction of duty on their part if they didn‘t continue to exhaust every wherewithal, you know, that there is, so...
COSBY:  Should it get to it where you‘re not granted clemency and no appeals work, you have to make preparations.  What have you thought about doing your last 24 hours?  Who do you want there?  What about your last meal, Stanley?
WILLIAMS:  I accept no last meal.  I don‘t want anyone to be there.  Who would I possibly want to see me die?  So I wouldn‘t have no one there.  I want no meal from this place.
COSBY:  How do you think history will remember you, Stanley?
WILLIAMS:  Well, it‘ll probably be in tandem with my sanguinary legacy and my legacy of redemption.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY:  And we‘re joined now by one of Stanley Williams‘s celebrity supporters.  Actor Mike Farrell is best known for playing Captain B.J. Honeycutt on the TV series “M*A*S*H.”  He‘s now a vocal death penalty opponent, and he joins us live.  And on the also phone with us is Williams‘s attorney, Peter Fleming.
Mike, let me start with you.  Did you visit Stanley Williams recently?  How was he doing?  Because I met with him face to face a year ago.  I just spoke with him on the phone.  But how was he doing when you saw him face to face?
MIKE FARRELL, ACTOR/ACTIVIST:  I haven‘t seen him recently.  When I saw him, he was doing very well.  He‘s a man at peace.  He‘s a man who has done, I think, an extraordinary amount of personal introspection and change, and has also done a tremendous amount of good.  And I think none of that can in any way do anything but make him feel better.  The tension he feels now must be—in spite of the fact that he seemed very calm when you spoke to him, the tension must be difficult.
COSBY:  Yes, he seemed very much at peace.  And I got that impression when I saw him face to face, too, Mike.  You know, Mike, why do you think his life should be spared?  Because of course, folks on the other side are saying, You know, look, this guy co-founded the Crips, even by his own admission, you know, he said he was a predator, did some horrible things.  What example does that set to other people?
FARRELL:  Well, I think the example is the change.  You know, people want to believe, and I hope they do believe and recognize, that human beings can transform themselves, so this man has done an extraordinary turnabout.  And the last 13 years of his life have been dedicated to trying to see to it that that turnabout not only pays off for the young people to whom he‘s speaking but pays off for other prisoners, so that they can see that it does make sense to look at themselves, to do some serious self-examination and to change their lives.
Many—most of the prisoners in jail are going to get out at some point, and that‘s why Governor Schwarzenegger recently renamed the California Department of Corrections the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.  The idea was that we want to focus on rehabilitating people.  Even if Stanley never sees the outside of the prison, he is rehabilitated, and it seems to me that we ought to use that as an example for not only other prisoners but for the young people who look to him as somebody to admire.
COSBY:  You know, Peter Fleming, are you optimistic now that the governor said, you know, just last Friday, you know, said, Look, I will hear this on December 8?  What do you think the chances are?  They odds are pretty slim in California.
PETER FLEMING, WILLIAMS‘S ATTORNEY:  Well, (INAUDIBLE) Rita.  I appreciate you having me on.  We appreciate the governor hearing us, and I‘ve really reached no conclusion other than that.  What I‘d like to make clear is what we‘re asking for.  There may be some confusion.  You know, we‘re asking that Stanley not be killed.  We‘re asking that his sentence be reduced from death, which we think would be a waste, to life imprisonment without parole so that he can continue what he has been doing.
If I can just take a minute?  You know, there has been talk about celebrity support, and Stanley appreciates that, and so do we.  But the real support here is from the down up—over 70,000 e-mails, tens of thousands of letters.  I read from one e-mail written by a student from South Central which I think tells what this plea for clemency is all about.  This is a young woman that writes that, “Stanley Williams made me think, and now I know if he can change his life around, then I have the power and confidence to change my own life around.”
In a way, you can say that this petition for clemency is about the kids who need Stanley Williams and to whom he has been communicating.
COSBY:  You know, and Mr. Fleming, they definitely look up to him.  And obviously, here, when you hear from a gang member, former one, it certainly has more meaning.
Mike Farrell, what do you say, though, to the victims‘ families?  By the way, we were supposed to have on our show attorney Nina Salerno Ashford (ph).  She‘s representing the victims‘ families.  She wasn‘t able to be here with us.  So I want to get you to respond.  What do you say to these victims‘ families who‘ve just suffered so much, though, and want to see some sort of sense of justice in their mind?
FLEMING:  Well, justice to me would be life in prison without possibility of parole, if he‘s innocent (SIC.  You heard Stanley say he‘s not—he‘s not guilty of the crime, so that‘s a whole other issue.  But life in prison without possibility of parole is justice.  It keeps people who are dangerous off the streets, out of the—out of being dangerous to society.
And I—obviously, you know, my heart breaks for the victims‘ families in this case and for the victims themselves in every case.  But I think what we have to do is recognize a couple of things.  One is that our system of justice is broken.  We are continually jailing and killing people who did not do the crime for which they have been convicted.
Beyond that, when somebody makes the kind of change that Stanley Williams has made and becomes an ardent worker for and supporter for the good and decent possibilities for young people in our society, they need to—that needs to be recognized.
And I think that I would recommend to Nina and to the people who are concerned about the rights and feelings of victims that they look to organizations like Murder Victims‘ Families for Reconciliation and Murder Victims‘ Families for Human Rights, which are made up of murder victims‘ families who recognize that there is no value to them in furthering the murderous cycle.
COSBY:  All right.  Mike Farrell, thank you very much.  And obviously, Mr. Fleming, we‘re going to be watching this case closely.  Thank you to both of you.  We appreciate it very much.  And everybody, we‘re going to follow this case.
And there‘s an all points bulletin on right now after a daring jailbreak.  Nine inmates escaped from their cells at the Yakima County jail in Washington state this weekend.  They apparently climbed out of a hole in the ceiling and used a rope made of bedsheets to get out.  Seven were caught over the weekend, two are still on the loose.
On the phone right now is Yakima County sheriff Ken Irwin.  Sheriff, where does the investigation and the search for these guys stand right now?
SHERIFF KEN IRWIN, YAKIMA COUNTY, WA:  Well, we just executed a search warrant outside of town for one of the suspects, and we‘re searching for him at this time.
COSBY:  When you say you executed a search warrant, did you get a tip?  And which one is it that you‘re looking for that you have the hone-in on?
IRWIN:  Yes, we‘ve had tips all day and all day yesterday.  And I can‘t give any more details than that right now.
COSBY:  But do you think you‘re close to closing in on one of the other ones?
IRWIN:  Hopeful.  We haven‘t found him yet.
COSBY:  Well, we wish you luck.  I know that there was some word today—as we‘re looking—this is the hole that they crawled out of.  but there‘s some word today that there may be, what, a third person with them, that there may be a woman?  What‘s her connection?
IRWIN:  That‘s correct.  That‘s with Soto down in the lower valley.  That‘s south of Yakima about 20 miles.  That‘s where he‘s from, and that‘s where she lives.  That‘s where Soto showed up about two hours after the jailbreak the other night on foot.  He was turned away because she was supposedly sick.  And she went into town the next day and hasn‘t been seen since.
COSBY:  All right.  Well, Sheriff, please keep us posted.  Again, both men on the loose.  We wish you luck.  Hopefully, that search warrant will prove to be something.  Thank you.
And still ahead, everybody: The Dutch government is apparently spurred into action in the Natalee Holloway case.  We‘re going to tell you why they‘re responding to our specific report.  Pretty interesting.  We were named.
And Dennis Rodman joins me live in the studio.  Wait until you hear about the moment his life almost ended.  He‘s about to shock the world again, and it‘s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY:  And now to a major development in the Natalee Holloway case.  Aruban prosecutors say an interview with suspect Deepak Kalpoe is authentic.  But—get this—they claim his answers may have been changed for television.  The prosecutor says, quote, “The Dutch Forensic Institute has also concluded that, in the case of the interview shown in the programs of ‘Dr. Phil‘ and ‘Rita Cosby,‘ the images were manipulated.  These images differ from the ones in the video CD and the tape provided by the FBI.” 
Here‘s one of the bombshell developments from Deepak Kalpoe that‘s now in dispute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “DR. PHIL”)
JAMIE SKEETERS, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  I‘m sure she had sex with all of you.
DEEPAK KALPOE, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE:  She did. You‘d be surprised how simple it was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY:  And joining me now is polygraph examiner Jamie Skeeters.  He‘s the man who conducted that interview with Deepak Kalpoe.  And on the phone with us right now from Aruba is Arlene Ellis Schipper with the Aruban strategic communications task force, representing the government of Aruba. 
Arlene, you know, that clip that we just heard, where it sounds like Deepak says they all had sex with her, that we got from the “Dr. Phil” show, how was that manipulated?  What are you hearing? 
ARLENE ELLIS SCHIPPER, ARUBAN STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS TASK FORCE:  Well, I asked that specific question today at the police investigator.  And he explained to me that four investigators of the NFI, the Dutch Forensic Institute, all came to the same conclusion.  They say that the answer to the sex question was, “She did,” appears to be manipulated and shortened, in the sense that the words “no” and the “didn‘t” were cut out. 
COSBY:  So you‘re saying that actually what he says, from what you‘re understanding is, “No, we didn‘t have sex with her, basically,” and that it was changed to say, “Yes, we did.”  That‘s a big difference, Arlene.
SCHIPPER:  Yes.  From what I understand from the police officials that explained to me exactly this today, that it has been manipulated in the way that the denial became an admission.  And that‘s a serious manipulation, yes. 
COSBY:  Yes, that absolutely is.  Now, Jamie, what do you say to this manipulations?  Were the tapes altered? 
SKEETERS:  No, they weren‘t altered.  They were edited.  My disc was sent to Dr. Phil‘s show.  His people, as you all do in the media, downloaded a CD to a beta tape. 
Now, they took a two-hour interview.  And they cut portions out of that and put it in a 10-minute segment.  They can‘t put the whole two hours in there.  And that‘s called editing, not altering. 
COSBY:  Although, Jamie, you know, she‘s alleging that the answer was “no” and that it was edited and then given to shows like mine and others to be a “yes.”  That‘s a big difference. 
SKEETERS:  Well, I know it is.  And this weekend, for the first time, I went over the tapes.  That night I took the interview, I got it off the island immediately. 
And then the Phil show did the editing.  And until I was told by Dompig recently about the difference in the wording, this weekend over Thanksgiving, I, myself, even went and tried to see what they were talking about. 
And like Dompig said, there‘s a lot more on that tape than we knew about.  And it‘s unbelievable.  And what I got today when I looked at it was, “And I am sure that she had sex with all of you,” there‘s a real faint, “She did,” and it caught me off guard, because I‘m not doing an interrogation.  I‘m doing a fact-finding mission.  I said, “Good.”
And then there‘s another statement—and here is one they‘re talking about—where they say—they think he says “We didn‘t” or “He didn‘t.”  The Phil folks, when they did the transcribing, comes up and says, “And she did.”  And I looked at it, and, yes, it‘s a rough one in there.  And I don‘t remember when I was doing the interview, but I just remember that he said, “She did,” I said, “Good,” and then, “And she did,” then he follows through with that. 
Now, here‘s what‘s important.  Then I said, “Well, good, I mean” and then he interrupts and says, “And you would be surprised how simple it was.” 
And I found out something else.  That‘s what I heard the first time.  But this weekend, it‘s been verified by forensics, where he says, “And you‘d be surprised how simple it was that night.”
COSBY:  So, Jamie, what you‘re saying is that—what you‘re saying is, from what you heard, the context was not changed? 
SKEETERS:  No, well, the tape that I just heard you do on Phil, no, that—that‘s not in sequence.  I mean, “She did,” then there‘s other things that were said.  I mean, you can‘t put a...
COSBY:  But I guess what I‘m asking you though, Jamie, what I‘m asking you though, Jamie, is what you‘re saying is that he did say, “Yes, we all had sex with her that night,” at some point in your conversation? 
SKEETERS:  What I‘m telling you is what I‘m reading right off the transcripts that I took this weekend.  You know, “And I‘m sure that she had sex with all of you.”  “She did.”  “Good.”  And then he says, “And she did.”
Now, that‘s what the question mark here.  “And she did” or “we didn‘t.”  But then he follows right back with what would sound like “And she did” with “And you would be surprised how simple it was that night.”
COSBY:  All right, Jamie, hold on, because I want to bring in Dave Holloway, of course, Natalee‘s father.  He joins us now from Mississippi. 
Dave, you know, as you hear this, you know, first you heard what Arlene was saying, you know, whether it was taken out of different part in the editing, but as Jamie was just saying, the context is still the same.  What‘s your reaction to the accusation by the government that it‘s, quote, “manipulated”?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FATHER:  Well, I hated to go through the agony of listening to the tape.  But I guess it‘s come down to the fact that I‘m going to have to listen to the tape to find out who‘s telling the truth and who‘s not telling the truth.  So that tape is supposed to arrive tomorrow.  And I‘ll review it. 
COSBY:  Oh, great.  So you‘re going to hear it actually tomorrow, Dave, firsthand? 
HOLLOWAY:  If the FedEx package arrives timely, yes. 
COSBY:  Dave, why do you believe this tape has caused such attention?   I mean, there seems to be a lot of heat on the Aruban government, particularly about this tape.  It just seems to be explosive, when Deepak made that allegation if, indeed, it is on the tape? 
HOLLOWAY:  Well, as you‘ll recall, you know, they have nothing.  And this tape, hopefully, gives them something to re-arrest these guys if it, in fact, is true and legitimate. 
You know, Joran stated in one of his statements that Natalee was in and out of consciousness or falling asleep, waking back up.  And, you know, if these tapes are authentic, which I understand they are, then that would be a basis for re-arrest, for sexual battery, sexual assault and rape. 
COSBY:  Let me bring Arlene Ellis-Schipper, if I could, back in.  Arlene, I want to get your response, you know, from Jamie, who‘s basically saying the essence (OFF-MIKE) maybe parsing words? 
SCHIPPER:  You know, Rita, I think the police offered me today—when I asked them the specific questions, they said, “You know what?  We are willing to release to the media to make up your own minds the audiotapes,” because all you have is the footage from the “Dr. Phil” show. 
COSBY:  Absolutely.  And, Arlene, when could that happen?
SCHIPPER:  And they are willing to release the VHS tape that they received from Skeeters, as well as the CD-ROM, to the media for you to listen to it yourself. 
COSBY:  That‘s a great idea. 
SCHIPPER:  But this is not the Aruban authorities that came to this conclusion but the Forensic Institute of Holland, with four separate investigators. 
COSBY:  No, that‘s a great idea.  And, of course, that would obviously clear up all the error. 
Dave, real quick, where do you see this headed now?  Where do you see, sort of, the next step? 
HOLLOWAY:  You know, Rita, you know, you look at this tape, and it seems like the authorities are real defensive about even wanting to use it.  That‘s what‘s troubling about this whole thing is, you know, you try to solve the case.  You try to give them evidence and try to give them information they can use.
And, you know, they seem to get defensive about it and not want to use it, rather than being positive about it and let‘s solve the case and move on. 
COSBY:  Absolutely.  Well, Dave, thank you.  And please get back to us after you hear the tape firsthand.  We‘d love to get your thoughts on it, too, Dave.  Thank you very much. 
And, everybody, we, of course, have been following this case closely.  On Wednesday, it‘s going to be six months since Natalee disappeared.  We‘re going to be doing a one-hour special, right here, six months since she‘s disappeared, bring you the latest on the case.  And, by then, Dave will have listened to his tape, as well.  We‘d love to have him back and a number of other folks to respond.
Thank you very much, everybody. 
And up next, Dennis Rodman joins me LIVE & DIRECT.  He‘s going to be here in studio.  Find out what he‘s doing that will shock the world again. 
And later, it‘s what everyone is talking about, Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson call it quits.  What went wrong for the former newlyweds?  We‘re going to have the inside scoop.  Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY:  NBA superstar Dennis Rodman is back in the spotlight like he always is.  The 44-year-old says his career is not over.  In fact, it‘s just beginning.  He‘s just published his third book, giving details of life after the NBA.  And he‘s here with me right now to give us all of those details. 
Great to see you. 
DENNIS RODMAN, FORMER NBA STAR:  How are you doing, Rita? 
COSBY:  How are you doing?  You look good. 
RODMAN:  Thank you. 
COSBY:  How is life after the NBA? 
RODMAN:  Well, it‘s great, you know.  I‘ve been very successful with my agent, Darren Prince.  And we‘ve been on this whirlwind experience with the book and everything else. 
COSBY:  You know, people are just so fascinated with you.  Why did you decide this title?  This is a pretty brave title, “I Should be Dead by Now.”
RODMAN:  You know, I used to use that when I was going to Vegas and doing my binges, my parties, stuff like that.  I‘m like, “Gosh, I should be dead,” you know, after a hangover, “I should be dead,” all the things I‘ve done, you know, and partying, and women and, OK, great...
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
... you know, we got, “Bad as I Want to Be,” “Walk on the Wild Side,” and “I should be Dead by Now.”  And it‘s a good book.  It‘s a very good book.
COSBY:  And it‘s revealing, because you‘ve been sober, what, for two years? 
RODMAN:  Oh, yes. 
COSBY:  What made you decide, OK, I‘ve got to quit all this?  You‘re married now, right?  This is the third time, right?  Third time‘s a charm? 
RODMAN:  OK.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY:  So we‘ll get the details later.  All right.
RODMAN:  No, you know, just, you know, the one day in Vegas, you know, acting a fool, got on a motorcycle which I never do and thought I was a big bad ass and got in an accident.  And after that, I said, “Wait a minute.  I‘ve got to slow down.  I‘ve got to slow down before”—I tore my ankles, my knees, my chin.  I mean, I (INAUDIBLE) broke my legs and everything.  And I said, “I got to stop.”
COSBY:  How tough is it to be a bad boy, because, you know, you were known as the rough and tumble guy of the NBA.  And you look at folks like, look, Terrell Owens.
RODMAN:  Well, you know what?  Terrell Owens is not even a bad guy.  I mean, I met Terrell many, many times.  And I just think that he wants to be in that image, to be a bad guy, but not a bad person.
And just like me, I‘m not a bad person.  But I just like to have that image where people say, “I like you, I like you.  You‘re good, but you‘re bad, too.”
You know, but I‘m a good bad, not a bad bad.
COSBY:  Yes, you got a soft side.
RODMAN:  I‘ve got a soft side, too, so...
COSBY:  Now, I love your description of the game that you played so well.  You described the NBA—I love this—“50 percent sex and the other 50 percent is money.”  What about the sport?
RODMAN:  You know, if you look at it, people say, “I wish I had your job.”  Why?  Well, you get all the women.  You get all the money.  And you‘re famous. 
OK, and?  What about the sport, like you say?  What about the sport?  I took the sport very seriously, if you ask Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, anybody I played with will tell you I took that game really serious.  And when I was playing on the basketball floor, I always was Dennis Rodman the basketball player first.  And off the court, yeah. 
COSBY:  But you were able to juggle the two—in fact, Scores.  You‘ve been to Scores.  I love this story recently.  I‘m sure you heard about this.
RODMAN:  I was there last night. 
COSBY:  How much did you spend last night? 
RODMAN:  I spent about $400, $400.  That‘s it.  It was a light night, $400. 
COSBY:  Four hundred dollars.  A guy spent—I don‘t know, did you see this?  This big executive spent $241,000 bucks in one night. 
RODMAN:  Yes, in one night.
COSBY:  Is that possible? 
RODMAN:  That is very possible.  I‘ve seen it.  I‘ve seen many guys spend $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 in one night into a strip joint.  And, you know, it‘s not a bad thing to go there, because you want to have some peace and quiet.  Sounds kind of good, don‘t it?
COSBY:  Yes, does it?
(CROSSTALK)
RODMAN:  Actually sounds kinds of good, doesn‘t it?
COSBY:  I heard you don‘t like lap dances. 
RODMAN:  I don‘t get lap dances at all.  I just watch. 
COSBY:  So what do you do?  Is it like “Playboy”?  You just read for the articles? 
RODMAN:  I don‘t even look at “Playboy.”  I pretty much just go there, just have a good time, you know, smoke a couple cigars.  It‘s all good. 
COSBY:  What do you see as ahead for you with your life now?  Where do you see?  I know you‘ve been on Jay Leno.  In fact, one of the things—you‘re almost tied for, like, the most appearances, right? 
RODMAN:  Yes, most appearances.
COSBY:  What, 27 you‘ve had? 
RODMAN:  Twenty seven.
COSBY:  Pam Anderson‘s had, what, 29? 
RODMAN:  Twenty nine.  And, believe it or not, Terry Bradshaw is before me.  I‘m, like, what a minute, what has he done.  You know, like to have 28? OK, great.  But I‘m going back in January, so it‘ll be 28 for me. 
COSBY:  And you‘re going to be on pretty soon, right? 
RODMAN:  I‘m going to be on pretty soon for the Lingerie Bowl.  And I‘m doing that in L.A., so I‘m, you know, bringing all the girls out, having a good time on Jay Leno. 
COSBY:  And only spend $40 bucks, right? 
RODMAN:  Well, $40 bucks (INAUDIBLE) but, you know, like I said, this book here, it‘s great, you know?  Thanks to Darren Prince and all the guys at the publishing company, writing a book, and having a (INAUDIBLE) and, you know, it‘s just not my last one.
COSBY:  No, I‘m sure—like I said, this is probably just the beginning.
RODMAN:  Yes.
COSBY:  And, quick question, what color is your hair?  Now, you‘ve had somebody cut it.
RODMAN:  Just black.
COSBY:  Can we see it?
RODMAN:  It‘s black.  It‘s all black, see?
COSBY:  Oh, hey.  Is it for good luck, I can rub it?
(LAUGHTER)
RODMAN:  Can we go to a commercial break?
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY:  Trouble there.  Thank you.  We‘re going to read your book. 
RODMAN:  Please do.  Please do.
COSBY:  It‘s fascinating.  Your life has been fascinating.  Thank you very much. 
RODMAN:  Thank you.  Thank you, Rita. 
COSBY:  And, of course, there‘s a lot more coming up tonight, not just Dennis Rodman.  We‘re going to check in with Tucker Carlson.  Any advice here for your buddy right here, Dennis Rodman? 
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  Oh, I‘ve got a ton of advice for Dennis Rodman.  I‘m going to give it to him off air. 
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY:  And what‘s coming up on the show? 
CARLSON:  All sorts of stuff.  The Bush administration announced today that, for the last couple of years, 130,000 illegal immigrants have been caught at the border, forced to go to court, and then don‘t show up for court, and circulate among the American population, fugitives for justice.  They‘ve done nothing about it.  They fessed up today. 
The question is:  Is the president finally going do something about the porous border we have and the security threat it poses?  It‘s an open question.  We‘re going to debate that and a lot of other things.  It‘s going to be great. 
COSBY:  All right.  Thank you so much, Tucker.  We‘ll be watching at 11:00. 
And real quick, any words of advice right here for Dennis Rodman?  Did you see his hairdo, Tucker? 
CARLSON:  Yes, I like the hair.  When you‘ve got hair like that...
COSBY:  Can you show him the hair?  Can you show him the hair again?
CARLSON:  ... you don‘t need advice from me. 
COSBY:  Take a look there.  What do you think, Tucker? 
CARLSON:  I think he looks fabulous.  Are you kidding?  I have nothing to say to a man with hair like that.  He knows all he needs to know. 
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY:  He‘s got style.  And he says that the best has yet to come. 
Thank you very much, Tucker.  Thank you, Dennis, very much.  Great to have you both on.
And make sure you watch Tucker‘s show, “SITUATION,” at 11:00.
And still ahead, everybody, the tabloids have been saying it for weeks.  But it‘s now official:  The newlyweds are no more.  Nick Lachey and Jessica Simpson say it‘s over.  What happened?  That‘s next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JESSICA SIMPSON, SINGER:  My whole mentality was to just back and relax and enjoy it, because I‘m only going to do it once, you know what I mean?  And this was...
KATIE COURIC, HOST, “TODAY” SHOW:  I hope so.
SIMPSON:  Oh, absolutely.  This has been an experience—I mean, look at my husband‘s face.  It‘s so adorable, you know?
COURIC:  Looks like he needs CPR. 
SIMPSON:  I know.  It‘s an experience that I never want to have again, but I can‘t describe how I felt when I walked down the aisle.  And it‘s just amazing. 
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY:  And that was Jessica Simpson on the “Today” show.  Well, newlyweds Jessica Simpson and Nick Lachey are calling it quits—Nick Lachey, rather—three years after they wed.  The star couple gave official confirmation with a joint statement released the day before Thanksgiving, says Nick Lachey and Jessica will, quote, “part ways.” 
Joining me now with the details is Katrina Szish with “Us Weekly” magazine.  And also divorce attorney Stacy Phillips.  Stacy has represented numerous celebrities, among them actor Jean-Claude Van Damme and also baseball great Darryl Strawberry.
Katrina, let me start with you.  What‘s behind all this?  Did somebody cheat? 
KATRINA SZISH, “US WEEKLY”:  No cheating has been substantiated.  There certainly have been rumors on both sides, but I think we have a case here of two people who got married very young.  They were both at a point in their careers where they thought, “This is going great,” and they had no idea how much better it was going to get, specifically for Jessica.  I think she just realized, “I was too young.  I have too much ahead of me.  I need to experience life.”
COSBY:  And this seems like the real deal.  It seems like for sure they are splitting.  Any sense that they could get back together?  Any reconciliation?
SZISH:  They are separated at this point.  They haven‘t announced any sort of divorce.  But usually to make such a big statement, take such a big step, especially publicly, means you‘re heading towards the real deal. 
COSBY:  Yes, usually to go to actual—to putting out the statement...
SZISH:  That‘s it.  Yes.
COSBY:  ... that means that something‘s been in the works.  I hear they did not spend Thanksgiving together.  What did you hear?
SZISH:  Exactly right.  Well, they released the statement the night before Thanksgiving, and they really have been spending a lot of time apart, and that seems to be the continuing trend. 
COSBY:  Now, we are hearing that he was after football, after his friends, if it wasn‘t another woman, that he had sort of other issues, but she‘s beautiful. 
SZISH:  Jessica is beautiful.  I think of them as sort of the all-American Barbie and Ken couple.  But you think about it, and, you know, even Barbie and Ken ended up breaking up. 
(LAUGHTER)
The media scrutiny was too much for them.  It was all over.  And I just think that they really started going different ways.  He wasn‘t succeeding in his career and she very much was.  And that can be difficult in a relationship. 
COSBY:  You know, Stacy, Barbie and Ken, playing off Katrina, had a very messy public divorce.  Is this going to be messy, too? 
STACY PHILLIPS, DIVORCE ATTORNEY:  Well, it can be messy, depending on how they both handle it.  If they were to follow—better protocol would be to keep things—sorry—out of the media and do it privately and with respect. 
COSBY:  But how difficult does it make it when somebody makes so much money?  I mean, we‘re hearing that she made, what, about what $30 million last year?  He could not have made that much money.  Does it get a lot more complicated, a lot more sticky, when one is just so well-known, such a famous person? 
PHILLIPS:  Well, psychologically, I agree with you.  Yes, it could be difficult, if his sense of self is wrapped up in that she makes more money.  However, the good news is, it‘s a community property state.  He gets to share in her largess. 
COSBY:  Oh, he does?  So it‘s 50-50. 
PHILLIPS:  Fifty-fifty for what she earned last year.  Half of it is hers, unless they had a pre-nup.  And I think we would have heard about that.
COSBY:  How public do you think every move‘s going to be, Stacy?  I mean, everyone‘s following every little angle of both of these.  Do you think, you know, as we hear now, still, on other divorces, do you think we‘re going to be following every step, real quick? 
PHILLIPS:  Well, if they do it through the public court system, yes, it‘s a public forum.  But if they do it through potentially the private judicial system, which we have here in California, or they just work things out between the lawyers and the parties, with their other accounting representatives, then it will not be a public display. 
COSBY:  You know, and, Katrina, you know, we say that, but, of course, the press is going to be looking what‘s out there. 
SZISH:  Of course.
COSBY:  What‘s also ahead for both of them?  I understand, what, he‘s got a sitcom or something coming up? 
SZISH:  It‘s kind of up and down whether or not that sitcom is actually happening.  Jessica is starring in another movie at this point.  It seems like she‘s going fast-forward ahead and he‘s just sort of middling. 
COSBY:  It seems like James Bond we were hearing with him, with her, right? 
SZISH:  Possibly a Bond girl, but, again, nothing has been substantiated.  But everyone wants to see more of Jessica Simpson in those sexy little outfits. 
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY:  Is she going to make $30 million again, you think?
SZISH:  I think upwards of that.  She‘s worth a lot of money, yes.
COSBY:  Thank you very much.  Good to have both of you.  And, also, Stacy, too, thank you.
And still ahead, everybody, an all-points bulletin for a predator terrorizing a neighborhood, a four-legged stalked.  That‘s next.
And if you want to know more about our show, please check out our LIVE & DIRECT blog.  It‘s getting an inside look at the show.  I try to do it as much as I can.  Also, my producer, Nina Bradley, goes onto it.  It is a great blog.  It‘s on our web site, Rita.MSNBC.com. 
We‘re going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY:  And tonight, another all-points bulletin for a killer caught on tape, only this one has four legs and is accused of terrorizing a Florida neighborhood. 
This home video caught a bobcat in Brevard County, Florida, moments after it killed a swan.  Sheriff‘s deputies are escorting small children to school.  And the hunt is on now for the bobcat, hoping to catch it before it kills again.  And we will keep you posted on that.
And that does it for LIVE & DIRECT.  I‘m Rita Cosby.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now with my pal, Joe, live in Pensacola, Florida—Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Hey, thanks a lot, Rita.  Greatly appreciate it.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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