updated 11/30/2005 4:31:10 PM ET 2005-11-30T21:31:10

Guest: Rich Schapiro, Mary Rose Bushroe, Nina Salarno Ashford, Lora Owens, Michael Tomlinson, Mike Huckabee, Eric Brete, Dom Giordano, Steve Yuhas, Barry Reeves, Jeffrey Schultz

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight: An aspiring dancer leading a double life is brutally murdered.  Did her secret career as a stripper lead to her death?

Also, it‘s six months since Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance, and now there‘s new political pressure against the Aruba government.  A possible presidential contender joins us exclusively to tell us why he‘s backing the boycott now.

And football is normally a spectator sport, but we‘ll tell why you this fan got in on the action and got in a lot of trouble.

But first, our top story tonight.  An aspiring Broadway dancer by day, a topless stripper by night, 21-year-old Catherine Woods was found stabbed to death in her New York City apartment this weekend, and police are struggling to find her killer.

Joining me now is “Daily News” reporter Rich Schapiro, who spoke to Catherine Woods‘s father, John Woods.  He‘s Ohio State University‘s band director.

You know, Rich, did the father have any idea she was leading this double life?

RICH SCHAPIRO, “DAILY NEWS”:  I got the impression that he wasn‘t exactly sure what she was doing during her time in New York.  Like any father, you can‘t know exactly what your young child is doing.  I mean, they go away—I don‘t think any parent really knows everything about the details of the child‘s life once they actually leave the home.  And John Woods is no exception.

COSBY:  When was the last time he spoke to his daughter?  What sort of communication did they have?

SCHAPIRO:  I got the impression that they spoke weekly.  And just like any young person who went away to the big city, she gave her father the impression that she was doing well and that she was succeeding there, which I don‘t think was completely untrue.  I think she was—she was successful in New York, and she was just struggling to actually survive.  It‘s an expensive place.  She was living in a nice part of town and...

COSBY:  How long had she been dancing, though, Rich?  I mean, and what kinds of places was she dancing in?

SCHAPIRO:  She was dancing in a couple strip clubs, apparently, and she was also acting on some off-Broadway productions.  So that‘s what we know at this point.

COSBY:  Walk me through this ex-boyfriend, a guy by the name of David Haughn, that she was living with.  And what from what I‘ve read—I think some of this was from your story—there was this sort of 20-minute window that he says, what, he went to get the car and that‘s when she was killed?

SCHAPIRO:  Yes, that‘s essentially the latest news I have.

COSBY:  What do we know about this guy, Rich?

SCHAPIRO:  From what I understand, this guy—they were going out for four years.  They arrived in Columbus—I‘m sorry, they arrived in New York City not far apart from each other.  They had a very nice relationship.  And they were two young kids struggling to make it in the big city.

COSBY:  And then she had a new boyfriend, though, right?  Was there any sign of any jealousy that she was with somebody new?

SCHAPIRO:  Based on my reporting, I can‘t say.

COSBY:  This old boyfriend, the guy she was living with, told police that there was another man who had threatened her, right?  Tell us about that.

SCHAPIRO:  I have to be honest, I don‘t know anything about that.

COSBY:  Something about borrowing CDs or returning CDs.  I was reading some  report that it was someone else, that he had sort of said, well, this other guy may have been angry at her for any reason.  Have you seen any other reports of anyone else who could have been angry at for any particular reason?

SCHAPIRO:  From my reporting here in Columbus, everyone I‘ve spoken to has said that this is the type of girl who would not cause anybody to do anything related to what actually happened to her.  And I know that this city is shocked and this city is grieving, and it‘s just a big question mark at this point.

COSBY:  It sure is.  Well, please keep us posted, Rich.  Thank you very much.

And those, of course, who knew Catherine Woods are utterly devastated about the brutal murder.  You just heard from Rich a lot of people knew her and knew here well.  Here‘s what her father, John Woods, had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN WOODS, FATHER OF MURDERED DANCER:  My daughter was a beautiful woman inside and out didn‘t have a mean bone in her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And joining me now is someone else who knew Catherine very well, her former dance instructor, Mary Rose Bushroe.  Mary Rose, I want to ask you, you‘ve known Catherine since she was 3 years old.  What kind of a woman was she?

MARY ROSE BUSHROE, WOODS‘S FORMER DANCE INSTRUCTOR:  Well, she was a beautiful child.  And she was a soft-spoken person.  She on stage, however, lit up not only the room but the theater.  She was a very, very gifted performer.

COSBY:  So this was a girl who—she—I understand she moved to New York, as a lot of people do, you know, with big dreams of becoming big, but she had the talent, right?

BUSHROE:  She had a true talent.  And that‘s really why I‘m here because I need for people to know that this young woman was one among very few that crossed my path, among thousands that I teach, who truly had the potential to be a Broadway or classical star.  Her loss is incomparable.

COSBY:  What did you think when you heard also that she was leading

this double life?  It doesn‘t sound like she told her folks at all that she

was working, unfortunately, in strip clubs, just trying to make it to get

by?

BUSHROE:  I was shocked.  We‘ve heard these stories about other young women before.  It‘s not something that I would have thought Catherine would do.  I counseled her for many years.  She spent more time in my building from ages 3 to 17 than she probably did in her own home.  We‘re a very conservative dance studio.  She learned self-discipline, self-esteem and good technique.  This is not what any of us would have thought of her or chosen for her.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And you know, Mary Rose, when you hear about, you know, her brutal death, it must have just been devastating to you, to have known her.

BUSHROE:  It was.  I can‘t even find the words to tell you.  These young women are like my own children.  It was like losing a child.

COSBY:  How did you find out the news?

BUSHROE:  I had gone home on Sunday from the dance studio in good spirits after working with our current students, got up Monday morning and opened the paper, and there it was, on the front page of my local paper.  That‘s how I started my day yesterday.

COSBY:  How is the community holding up?

BUSHROE:  Well, not particularly well.  The dance community of which I‘m a part is just devastated.  My young students who aspired to be professional dancers are heartbroken.  And I spoke with them yesterday evening and I told them this was a beautiful girl.  She may or may not have made some poor choices.  We‘ve all made poor choices.  You will make poor choices.  But as young women, you remember that Catherine was a beautiful girl inside and out, and that this is a very small part of a very beautiful life, and we‘re sorry it‘s been extinguished.

COSBY:  What do you want people to know about her, too, as we sit back tonight?  It is just so tragic.  And you unfortunately hear about these stories of girls who come here with big dreams and they don‘t work out.

BUSHROE:  Well, of course, it‘s for the few, and there are many who aspire to be stars.  They need to listen to their parents.  They need to listen to their counselors and lead a cautious life so that they can be successful, and live to be successful.

COSBY:  Thank you very much, Mary Rose.  We really appreciate it.

So the big question is, What is life really like for a stripper?  And we will talk about that right after the break.  We‘re going to talk to two people who have lived that life.  We‘ve got a lot more also coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.  Stay with us because we have an APB, an all points bulletin, out for a suspect who broke out of police custody.  And that‘s not all.  Take a look at what‘s ahead.

Still ahead: Six months after Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance, a top governor joins those calling for a boycott of Aruba.  But will the involvement of this possible presidential candidate start an international dispute?  Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee joins us LIVE AND DIRECT.

Also, reaction to my exclusive interview with controversial death row inmate Stanley “Tookie” Williams.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STANLEY “TOOKIE” WILLIAMS, DEATH ROW INMATE:  It would be crazy for me to express remorse for a crime or crimes that I did not commit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Now one of the victims‘ family members is speaking out, telling me why Governor Schwarzenegger should let the former gang lord be executed.

And an overeager fan rushes the field at a pro football game.  We‘ll tell you his bizarre goal and why police are showing zero tolerance for this fan.  That‘s coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, you just heard about Catherine Woods being tragically stabbed on Sunday night.  She was a dancer, according to her family but she actually also danced at strip clubs privately, sort of leading a secret double life.  So what is life really like for a stripper?  How does someone become an exotic dancer?

Joining me now are two dancers, Kandi and also Bunny Love.  They also work at the Moonlite Bunny Ranch brothel in Carson City, Nevada, which I visited and did a story on not too long ago.

You know, Kandi, I want to ask you, is it sort of common that women sort of go—they hope for these dreams, and they lead this sort of double life?  How often do you hear that strippers actually tell their family what they do?

“KANDI,” DANCER:  Oh, Rita, it‘s very, very rare that dancers even, you know, let their family know that that‘s what they‘re doing.  A lot of the girls I worked with were either single parents trying to make a living or working their way through college.  It‘s very rare that they tell their families.

COSBY:  I would imagine.  You know, and Bunny, have you told your parents what you do?

“BUNNY LOVE,” DANCER:  No, actually, my parents don‘t know.

COSBY:  Well, I hope they‘re not watching the interview now!

(LAUGHTER)

“BUNNY LOVE”:  They don‘t have cable.  I‘m sure they might run across it on the Internet, but right now, I think I‘m safe.

COSBY:  Yes, why haven‘t you told your folks?  Why are you sort of, you know, leading a double life?

“BUNNY LOVE”:  You know, I started working in this business illegally, working in Vegas, and I was really—I was just really concerned about how they would feel about it.  When I told them—when I first got a job at a strip club, I told them that I was bartending there, not dancing.  And my mom went berserk.  She asked, What are you wearing?  What do you wear to work?  And so just judging from her reaction from what I told her, I just have no idea how she would take me working at the Bunny Ranch and just what she would do with it.  That‘s what concerns me.

COSBY:  And I know, Kandi, when you and I met a little bit ago, you told me that you told your folks and your dad‘s sort of jaw dropped, right?

“KANDI”:  Yes.

COSBY:  What was their reaction?

“KANDI”:  Well, at first, you know, I felt like we were all adults, you know, and I wanted to sit them down and discuss it because I would rather tell my family really before anybody, you know, because they‘re to love me unconditionally.  And I got very fortunate.  I was very lucky that my parents do.  They—we‘re very, very close that way.

COSBY:  And Kandi, how do most people react, though, when you tell other people that you‘re a striper, that you‘ve done—worked in these kind of clubs?  How do most people react?  How do they handle you?

“KANDI”:  I think it‘s a stereotype.  You know, dancers—if you‘re an escort, you know, in the escort, you know, business, it‘s all very stereotyped.  You know, to me, get to know the person, not what they do.  My family, you know, I told them, they—I told them, I said, You can either, you know, be a part of mine and my daughter‘s life or you can disown us.  And they decided, they said, We love you, no matter what.  We would never disown you.  And who are we to judge?

COSBY:  And I know, Kandi, in your case, too, you have a beautiful young daughter, too...

“KANDI”:  Yes.

COSBY:  ... and have a good relationship with her, as well.  You know, Bunny, how dangerous is this business?  Of course, they don‘t know what happened to Catherine Woods, at this point, if it was somebody who knew her, if it might have been a customer.  But how dangerous is it?  It‘s rough hours, especially when you‘re working in these clubs, and you can imagine, in New York City.

“BUNNY LOVE”:  You know, it‘s incredibly dangerous, and it all just depends on who you‘re involved with.  Crime breeds crime.  When you‘re in Vegas or in LA or in New York and you‘re working the escort services and you‘re seeing people outside of clubs—crime breeds crime.  And anything that you can do to get your money illegally, they can do to get it right back to you, or back from you.  I mean, they can kill you in that room.  There‘s so many different things they can do.

And it‘s just—it really is important on who you get yourself involved with.  And that‘s what is so great about the Bunny Ranch.  It gives women a great chance to come and be involved in this industry in a safe environment and learn new things.

“KANDI”:  And it‘s legal at the Bunny Ranch.

“BUNNY LOVE”:  Yes, and it‘s legal.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  That‘s a whole different operation than some of these places in New York City, which, believe me, I thought what you guys were doing exactly, was legal, it‘s all registered.  And unfortunately, it sounds like in this place, who knows what happened with Catherine Woods.  Both of you, thank you very much for being here.  We appreciate it.

(CROSSTALK)

“BUNNY LOVE”:  And God bless the family.

COSBY:  Thank you both very much.

On to another story now.  One prisoner on death row got his sentence commuted today, while another may have just a few days to live.  Virginia governor Mark Warner commuted the death sentence of Robin Lovitt today to life in prison.  Lovitt would have been inmate number 1,000 to be executed in the United States since capital punishment was reinstated in 1976.

Meanwhile, California inmate Stanley “Tookie” Williams remains on death row tonight.  He‘s scheduled to die December 13, but he continues to claim his innocence.  Listen to what he had to say to me in my exclusive interview with him last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Why shouldn‘t you be executed?

WILLIAMS:  Well, first and foremost, I‘m innocent.  And secondly, being allowed to live enables me to continue to disseminating my positive message to youth and adults throughout this country and abroad.  And you know, lastly, being able to live, it would allow me to inevitably prove my innocence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is Nina Salarno Ashford.  She‘s an attorney who consulted with the families of the four people that Stanley Williams is convicted of killing.  And also on the phone is Lora Owens.  She‘s the stepmother of one of Williams‘s victims, Albert Owens.

Lora, first of all, tell us real briefly what happened to your stepson.

LORA OWENS, ALBERT OWENS‘S STEPMOTHER:  He went to work one night, and while he was making an honest living, Williams decides to come in.  And he had some other gang members with him.  They took Albert—he took Albert into the back room, made him lie down on the floor face down, and then shot him in the back twice.

COSBY:  What goes through your head when you hear that he‘s professing his innocence?  He‘s saying they got the wrong guy, he‘s being framed.

OWENS:  Well, you know, he didn‘t claim his innocence for quite a few of those appeals.  He claimed a brain damage.  So it‘s interesting how his story has changed over the last 26 years.  He can fool some of the people, but he will not fool all the people.

COSBY:  Nina, what do you think would be appropriate punishment for Stanley “Tookie” Williams?

NINA SALARNO ASHFORD, ATTORNEY:  I think the will of the people, the 12 people that—men and women who sat as jurors in 1981 sentenced him to death because they thought that was a fitting punishment for his heinous crimes.  He slaughtered four people.  And that is what is appropriate.  That is the will of the people of the state of California, and that needs to be carried out.

COSBY:  You know, Nina, what do you make of all these celebrities and all these other folks who are—who are saying, Let‘s give this guy another chance, he‘s rehabilitated himself, did some horrible things, but he‘s now—you know, been nominated for the Nobel Prize, reaching out to kids?

ASHFORD:  Well, first of all, I don‘t know if he is rehabilitated.  He‘s never admitted to the crimes, and that would be the first step.  But even if he‘s done these great things and reached out to kids, that‘s asking the governor and everybody else to turn a blind eye to what he did in 1979.  He slaughtered and brutally executed four innocent people.

COSBY:  Now, Nina, do you believe he did that, too?  Because again, he‘s saying he is innocent.  He‘s saying he was a black man, a virtually all white jury, and you know, given, you know, who he was, muscular guy, felt that it was intimidating, threatening, and the jury basically framed him, or at least the prosecutors did, to bring him there.

SCHAPIRO:  Well, one, as Lora just pointed out, he‘s gone through almost 20 years of appeals and that has never been raised.  And his sentence has been upheld.  And 12 impartial jurors convicted him.  You know, the hardest thing in the world—I can‘t imagine being a juror and having to sentence somebody to death or decide between death and life imprisonment.  They must have known well beyond a reasonable doubt that it was Stanley “Tookie” Williams who committed those crimes, and this is the sentence that he deserves.

And you know what?  The victims deserve their justice.  They‘ve waited since the murder of their loved ones.  Their justice is now due, and it should happen for the victims on December 13.

COSBY:  And I‘m sure these years have been tough.  I want to show a little clip, if I could.  This is again of Stanley “Tookie” Williams talking last night about avoiding the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Do you think if you expressed remorse that the governor might be more inclined to grant you clemency?

WILLIAMS:  But see, it would—it would be craziness for me to express remorse for a crime or crimes that I did not commit.  That would be totally against my convictions.  It would be wrong to express remorse for something I didn‘t do.  I‘m sure you yourself, or any sound-minded individual in society, would not admit to anything that they didn‘t commit.  It would be wrong.  It would be foolish.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Lora, do you believe that he should get the death penalty?

OWENS:  I believe that he should get the death penalty because that‘s what the courts decided and it‘s been upheld all of these years.  He says that he‘s a changed man, and yet nothing has changed within his life.

COSBY:  You know, you‘ll witness the execution, I understand.  What‘s going to go through your head?

OWENS:  I don‘t know, Rita.  I‘m not standing there at that moment. 

I‘m not going to project what I‘ll be thinking.

COSBY:  Why do you think it‘s important to be there, Lora?

OWENS:  I believe Albert deserves justice, and I believe Albert expects me to be there in his name.

COSBY:  I‘m sure it‘s been tough all these years.  I cannot imagine just the pain your family has suffered.

OWENS:  Well, you see, we‘ve never been able to get closure from it because of all of the publicity that this man‘s had on him.

COSBY:  I understand you also made a promise to your husband.

OWENS:  I did.  When he was dying, he said, You won‘t forget Albert.  And you will follow this case, won‘t you?  So yes, I will.  And you know, they don‘t like to have the facts coming out.  Everything that they‘re claiming right now, the facts, it shows how that‘s all untrue.  And if he‘s so renounced his gang activity, then why is the gang out there promoting him to be free or innocent or to get clemency?  Why is the gang out there fighting for him?  Why is he getting all this large amounts of money from the outside?  Facts don‘t hold up with what‘s happening.

COSBY:  Well, you definitely bring up some good points, and we thank you very much for being here.  We‘re, of course, also going to be following this case closely.  We‘d love to have both of you back on again.  Thank you very much.

And let me bring in, if I could, someone who knows the California prison culture very well, Pastor Michael Tomlinson.  He served 18 years in various prisons, including two in San Quentin.  He‘s been out of prison for 12 years.  He‘s also the author of the book “From the Pit to the Pulpit.”  Pastor Tomlinson joins me now live.

Pastor, what‘s going on through, you know, Tookie Williams‘s mind as the clock is ticking?

PASTOR MICHAEL TOMLINSON, FORMER PRISON INMATE:  I imagine he‘s sitting there, looking for the 13th to come and deciding it‘s pretty much over.

COSBY:  Do you believe it is over for him?  Do you believe he‘s going to have a chance at clemency with the governor when he meets on the 8th?

TOMLINSON:  I believe that they‘re going to uphold the death sentence.  And I believe that the governor‘s going to have that meeting, but I don‘t think it‘s going to change anything.

COSBY:  You don‘t?  And why not?  Just because of the case or the odds against him?

TOMLINSON:  I just—I think public opinion.  I think that the public opinion, his notoriety as a gang member, and—it‘s just going to—they‘re going to uphold that for that reason.  But I personally believe that you can be rehabilitated.  I personally believe a person can change.  And I believe that I‘m living proof of that.

COSBY:  Do you believe he‘s rehabilitated?

TOMLINSON:  I believe that a person that‘s been in prison as long as he has and has done the things that he‘s done, he‘s had to have changed.  I don‘t know at what point you would consider rehabilitation, but I believe that he‘s definitely not the same man that walked through those gates.

COSBY:  Yes, I would imagine also that there is buzz in San Quentin.  I remember hearing when Scott Peterson was headed there, there was all this buzz.  And when executions come up—what‘s the buzz within San Quentin now, with the execution date set for Tookie on the 13th?

TOMLINSON:  Well, the buzz is, is it going to happen?  Is this thing going to happen?  I mean, everybody‘s aware of it.  Everybody‘s talking about it.  And it affects everybody inside that prison.  San Quentin is like a society, enclosed society of its own.  And it‘s just—whatever happens to him happens to everybody in there.

COSBY:  And I heard there‘s concern about the Crips, too.  Tell us about that, about the gang that he was a co-founder of.

TOMLINSON:  Yes, from what I understand, there‘s a threat from (INAUDIBLE) 20-years-ago threat that if they execute him that the Crips are going to execute a guard in every prison in California.  Now, whether that‘s going to happen—I don‘t believe it is, but that‘s just a threat that‘s out there.

But I personally believe that the guy has changed or there‘d be a lot of action happening—you know, violence behind what‘s going on with him right now...

COSBY:  All right...

TOMLINSON:  ... just from the type of people that he‘s dealing with.

COSBY:  Pastor, thank you very much for your perspective.

TOMLINSON:  You‘re more than welcome.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

And up next on LIVE AND DIRECT, an exclusive interview with Governor Mike Huckabee, who has just announced his support for a boycott against Aruba.  He‘s going to tell us why he‘s now getting involved in the Natalee Holloway case.

Plus, bad news for the millions affected by this year‘s hurricane season.  next year may be just as devastating.  Wait until you hear about the weather ahead this winter.  Sorry to give you this bad news.  We‘re going to tell it to you LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  More news tonight in the Natalee Holloway case.  Beth Holloway Twitty has hired a new high-profile attorney, former prosecutor John Q. Kelly.  He‘s best known for his work on behalf of the family of Nicole Brown Simpson.  He‘ll help Natalee‘s family by serving as a liaison to Aruban officials. 

Meanwhile, it‘s been only a few weeks since Alabama Governor Bob Riley announced a boycott of Aruba.  But now the call is picking up some major backing.  LIVE & DIRECT tonight is Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee.  Late today, the governor announced his support for the island boycott.

Governor, why did you decide to join in? 

GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE ®, ARKANSAS:  Rita, first of all, it was out of respect for my colleague and friend, Governor Bob Riley.  But it‘s also because of an intense feeling of respect for the Holloway family. 

Many of those family members are from our state here in Arkansas.  Natalee‘s mother is from Pine Bluff, Arkansas.  Her father went to high school in Jonesboro, Arkansas.  Many of her family live here.  And the grief of that entire family is intense. 

And I felt it was a way that we could show our solidarity with, not only our friend, Governor Riley, but also with his family.  And then the bottom line is:  I have a daughter.  It‘s as simple as that.  I‘ve got a daughter.  If this were my child, I‘d want to know what happened. 

COSBY:  You know, Governor, why is this, the timing—why is this the right time, right now?  Governor, can you hear me? 

I think we lost his audio.  We‘ll get back to the governor in a moment.  And we were having audio problems with him just before the show.  But we‘re going to get reaction now to the governor‘s statement.

Actually, do we have his audio now?  Actually, we‘re going to have his audio in a moment.  But as soon as we do, we‘re now going to get reaction from Aruba.  We‘re going to bring in right now the island‘s chief protocol officer, Eric Brete.  He works closely with the governor‘s prime minister. 

Eric, we‘re going to bring the governor back in, in a second, because we‘re working on some audio issues.  But while we‘re waiting on that, Eric, first of all, what‘s your reaction to now another state joining on board? 

ERIC BRETE, ARUBAN CHIEF PROTOCOL OFFICER:  Good evening.  Well, all that I can say is I do not understand this boycott because of for an isolated incident that happened here on this island.  I dare to say within 100 years that some governors are calling for a boycott. 

I heard the governor say before that it‘s out of respect for the governor of Alabama and the family.  I also have respect for the governor of Alabama and the family.  And I also have a daughter.  My daughter is in school in the United States. 

And I mean, I care for my daughter very much, like I care for everybody else.  And what if something like that, God forbid, happens to her?  Should I boycott the United States?  And I mean, if we can keep going, I mean, like, for instance, you have, like, should we boycott California?  I mean, like...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Now, Mr. Brete, what‘s your reaction though?  Do you understand why the family is so frustrated and why a lot of people in America are so frustrated?  You know, they feel like, you know, things are, you know, not—people aren‘t pulled in the second time.  Questions aren‘t followed up on.  No leads.  Do you understand their frustration? 

BRETE:  Yes, I do understand their frustration.  But nobody knows what happened to Ms. Holloway.  I mean, nobody knows.  And, I mean, if we could just sit all of us together and start or try to come up with solutions or something for the problem and blame people for something that nobody knows what happened. 

I mean, like, if we‘re going to call a boycott, maybe we should—because I heard the family also say about safety.  She‘s worried about the safety of the people of Aruba.  I mean, should we call a boycott for St.  Thomas?  Two American boys out of New York were killed in St. Thomas. 

Should we call a boycott of St.  Thomas? 

I mean, why where are we going with this?  I mean, I do understand for the family.  I mean, if it was my daughter, I mean, I would do, I mean, all I could do in this world, to be able to find out where she is.  But I cannot go blame innocent people, people that are living on this island that don‘t have anything to do with that.  So a boycott, I think, it‘s out of this world to think of that. 

COSBY:  All right, Mr. Brete, hold on, because I want to get back Governor Mike Huckabee from Arkansas, who just voiced his support for the boycott.  I understand we got you back.  Governor, thank you very much.  I know you‘re holding the phone to your ear because of our audio problems. 

I don‘t know if you heard what Mr. Brete was just saying, the spokesman for Aruba, basically saying, look, if we‘re upset with something, why not boycott the whole United States?  If we‘re upset at O.J., boycott California.  Is a boycott taking it too far? 

HUCKABEE:  Well, I think that the issue is that there are a lot of unanswered questions about why people have been arrested and released.  In Governor Riley‘s letter to me, what he, I think, very passionately communicated was that there are a lot of issues that have not been resolved, things that would be fair enough to be resolved. 

And I think what we‘re trying to do is to show that there‘s a need for us to stand with this family and to ask the questions and simply to ensure that there‘s going to be a level of cooperation with American authorities and, particularly, with this family. 

COSBY:  You know, Governor, what kinds of steps can you take to enforce this boycott?  Are you talking about maybe talking with other governors and getting more on board?  Are you talking about going to travel agents?  How far do you see this going? 

HUCKABEE:  Well, we can‘t tell people what they should or shouldn‘t do.  We‘re certainly making them aware of this family‘s grief and plight, and simply saying that, in their planning vacation ideas, that, until some of these questions are answered to the satisfaction of the officials here in the United States and also to the family of Natalee Holloway, they should think very carefully about where they go. 

There are lots of wonderful places to go.  Aruba is a wonderful place, and there‘s many great people there.  You know, and I grieve for the people of Aruba who are not responsible for the unanswered questions. 

COSBY:  You know, Governor, because we saw the official on the other end from the prime minister‘s office, I want to give you a chance, Governor, to answer this.  In terms of—you know, he‘s basically saying, “You know, look, we‘re doing all we can, in terms of the investigation.” 

Seeing this from your perspective, Governor, do you believe the Aruban government is doing all they can?  They say they are. 

HUCKABEE:  I don‘t know.  I mean, the honest answer is I don‘t know.  I do know that I have a great deal of faith in Governor Riley and in the Holloway family.  Again, these are folks who live here in my state. 

Beth grew up here.  Natalee‘s father is from Arkansas.  Many of her relatives live here.  And that‘s who I have to believe and whom I have to have some confidence.  And I apologize about the audio problems.  I wish I could fix it.  But I hope it communicates at least somewhat. 

COSBY:  It absolutely does.  Governor, thank you very much.  And, Eric Brete, thank you very much, too.

And of course, while it looks like the boycott of Aruba is gaining some steam, some opponents are also getting as vocal as some of the supporters.  LIVE & DIRECT tonight are radio talk show Dom Giordano and also Steve Yuhas.  Dom supports the boycott, while Steve is definitely against it.

Steve, why are you so against it? 

STEVE YUHAS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  Well, Rita, first of all, thanks for having me on.  There‘s any number of reasons to be against a boycott of a country for an isolated incident.  I think the official from Aruba made it very clear. 

He‘s got a daughter here.  If we want to—and I think Governor Riley started this little adventure into boycotthood.  Governor Huckabee joined it, and it‘s purely political.  That‘s why he did it.  It has nothing to do with kinship.

And I‘m a conservative talk show host and saying this about a Republican governor.  But you cannot boycott a country because a woman made a tragic error and the family feels that they‘re not being treated fairly. 

COSBY:  But, Steve, are you saying that, what, she deserve to be killed? 

YUHAS:  No, I didn‘t—we don‘t know that she‘s dead, Rita.  But she deserved to be treated with respect, obviously, if whatever—whatever befell Natalee, I don‘t know what it is.  You don‘t know what it is.  And certainly none of the governors do.

The investigation is taking its course, but the people who are going to be hurt are the people that people like Governor Huckabee and Governor Riley pretend to care about, the people in their state.

COSBY:  Let me bring in, in fairness to time, because we don‘t have a lot of time.  Let me bring in Dom.

DOM GIORDANO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  Sure.  Hey, Rita...

COSBY:  Dom, what do you think?

GIORDANO:  Yes, Rita, O.J.‘s name was mentioned.  And I‘m hearing Steve say this.  These people in Aruba are doing about as thorough of an investigation as O.J. is in finding the people that allegedly killed his wife.  And this is not a woman, Steve; it‘s an 18-year-old. 

YUHAS:  OK.  Well, she is a woman.  And the fact of the matter is...

GIORDANO:  She‘s not a woman.  She‘s a kid down there. 

YUHAS:  If Natalee Holloway were being held for four months in jail, like Van Der Sloot was being held, America, including probably Governor Riley and Governor Huckabee, would be having a hissy fit saying they don‘t like Aruban justice.  They don‘t want the Aruban justice system to run its course.  If they want to boycott something, boycott it after it comes out that they did a lousy job. 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Both of you, I‘ve got to interrupt, because, Steve, we‘ve even had the chief of police here who‘s himself admittedly said that, “Look, we did make some mistakes early on.”  He‘s also even said on our show, Steve, that we believe they‘re guilty as hell, we just have to prove it.

Dom, let me get you to respond. 

GIORDANO:  Well, this stuff is foot-dragging.  And the guy, Rita—thank God for shows like you.  And thank God for people like Mrs. Holloway who will not relent with this foot-dragging and with what I see as a rich kid portrayed here who‘s being cut a break in Aruba.  And that‘s why America is angry about this, and that‘s why they‘re reaching for ways like boycotts to do something about it. 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  And, Steve, I‘m going to give you 10 seconds.  Steve, go ahead. 

YUHAS:  First of all, the boycott is going to hurt the poor people, not the rich kid.  If you held so much contempt for rich kids, give some of your money that you make in the radio business back.

But second of all...

(CROSSTALK)

GIORDANO:  Well, you don‘t know whether I give money back or not, Steve.  To who?

YUHAS:  This is going to hurt the poor people of Aruba, who did nothing to deserve it.

COSBY:  Steve, after that jab to Dom, I‘m going to give Dom 10 seconds.  Dom, you get the last word. 

GIORDANO:  Well, it is going to hurt them, Rita.  You can hear how dependent they are on tourism.  This is not about the poor people of Aruba; it‘s about the government.  It‘s about their officials.  It‘s about their infrastructure and what I see as the foot-dragging and arrogance of the kit and caboodle there.  And I‘m glad we‘re putting some pressure on them. 

COSBY:  All right, guys.  Thank you, both of you, very much.  Very spirited.  I appreciate it.

And a programming note now, everybody.  Tomorrow marks six months since Natalee disappeared from the island of Aruba.  We‘re going to take you inside the investigation and show you what I learned about the case when I traveled to the island myself. 

Also, this is going to be your opportunity to ask questions.  What would you like to know about the Natalee Holloway case?  You‘ve got to send us an e-mail, to rita@MSNBC.com, rita@MSNBC.com.  And we‘ll ask some of your questions right here on the air tomorrow night.  It is all going to be tomorrow night on our special report, Aruba mystery, six months later. 

And still ahead, everybody, on LIVE & DIRECT, how far would you go to fulfill your parents‘ dying requests?  We‘re going to show you the surprising length one fan went to, to honor his mother‘s memory. 

Plus, this year‘s record-breaking hurricane season is finally ending.  Thank goodness.  But we‘ll tell why you forecasters are already dreading next year‘s.  Stay tuned.  That‘s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I think it‘s love.  I don‘t think you should have gotten arrested for that.  I mean, if that was her dying wish, you should do what you got to do. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, Philadelphia Eagles‘ fans are watching more than just football this week.  One fan took it a step too far past the 30-yard-line.  Forty-four-year-old Christopher Noteboom rushed the field during Sunday‘s game, spreading his dead mother‘s ashes.  See if we can see it coming up here.  There it is. 

Joining us with more details is Barry Reeves.  He‘s an editor with “Sporting News.”  And back with us still is our pal, Philadelphia radio talk show host Dom Giordano.

Barry, first of all, how did this guy get through security? 

BARRY REEVES, “SPORTING NEWS”:  Well, actually, at an NFL game, because fans are so close to the action, it‘s actually fairly simple.  And this isn‘t the first time in the last month that a fan‘s run on the field.  About a month ago in Cincinnati, a guy ran on the field and took the ball from Brett Favre‘s hand. 

So it‘s actually not that impossible.  And that‘s probably something the NFL‘s going to have to rectify.  But, yes, I mean, you know, you‘ve got your dead mom, you know, leaning on your heart there, giving him a little extra burst of energy, and a burst of speed pass the security guard. 

COSBY:  You know, Dom, right now, he‘s charged—it‘s called defiant trespass.  Do you think the charges are going to be dropped, Dom?  Or do you think they‘re going to stick? 

GIORDANO:  No, I think they‘ll stick.  And I think, Rita, the reason is that this guy wanted to spread the ashes of his mom.  And if he had done it in the pre-game or the post-game or something like that, that would be one thing. 

But running onto the field, no one knows what this guy‘s throwing around or who he is.  And as Barry just mentioned, Brett Favre had the ball taken away from him.  There‘s a fear even among these players of people rushing the field.  What are they carrying with them?  And what‘s their motivation for doing this? 

COSBY:  Yes, and you never know.  It could be an—you know, in an age with WMD and everything else, people are so concerned. 

You know, Barry, how are the fans reacting? 

REEVES:  Well, if I‘m a fan, or if I‘m on the jury of this man‘s trial, there‘s no way the charge is going to stick.  He‘s going to be acquitted, because I think fans can relate to this. 

But one of the things I think you have to ask is, the Eagles‘ organization themselves declined to allow anyone to do things like this.  And you would think, considering that taxpayers footed the Bill for about 2/3 of the cost of that $500 million palace there in Philadelphia, that you‘d think the organization would be a little more gracious and understanding of special needs. 

COSBY:  And speaking of Philadelphia Eagles, Terrell Owens, you guys have been in the news quite a bit lately. 

GIORDANO:  Oh, absolutely, Rita.  It‘s unbelievable. 

COSBY:  Let me show a comment.  This is Arlen Specter.  Of course, he came out, made some comments about Terrell Owens.  Kind of interesting, Senator Specter.  Let‘s show what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R-PA), CHAIRMAN OF THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE:  And the thought crosses my mind that it might be a violation of the antitrust laws.  The NFL can have whatever rules it wants, authorize a suspension or keeping him on the team for the balance of the year, but they can‘t violate the law. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, Dom, it‘s interesting.  First of all, do you think the law should step in here in this place?  And, second of all, what‘s going on with Philadelphia and these fans?  You guys are die-hards, I‘m telling you. 

GIORDANO:  Oh, yes.  Well, Rita, I‘ll tell you, Arlen Specter is not being well-received on my show with this.  It‘s 100 to 1 against him, because people in Philadelphia are afraid that Terrell Owens will go to Dallas, the most hated rival.  And you‘ve got the single bullet theory with Arlen Specter and Dallas.  And it‘s all coming together.

The newspapers today even had the big conspiracy involving Dallas and all the things that are in the news.  So Arlen Specter is just kind of stepping into something that he ought to stay out of. 

COSBY:  Oh, he‘s going to have to keep it—sit low at the next game.

GIORDANO:  Yes.

COSBY:  Guys, thank you very much, both of you.

GIORDANO:  Thanks, Rita.  Thank you very much.

COSBY:  Thank you.

And, everybody, there‘s a lot more coming up tonight right here on MSNBC.  Let‘s check in with my pals, Joe Scarborough first with a preview, and also Tucker Carlson. 

First, let‘s go Joe.  What‘s going on?  I heard some D.C. corruption story, right, Joe? 

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  D.C. corruption story.  We were talking about originally doing something on where Tucker would want his ashes spread.  We‘re going to hold that over until tomorrow night, since you‘ve already handled that story tonight. 

But we‘re going to be talking about D.C. corruption.  One place I would not want my ashes to be spread would be on the floor of the House of Congress, because it is so sleazy there right now.  You‘ve got all these investigations going on, not such against members, but also staff members, wives.  It‘s going to get ugly there.

You‘ve got a system—and I know; I was there—where they make the rules, they don‘t live by the rules, they don‘t police themselves.  They‘re in this small little club.  So nobody wants to bring charges against anybody else.  It would be like if Tucker and I were members of Congress, I wouldn‘t bring a charge against Tucker because I knew that Tucker‘s friends would bring charges against me. 

That‘s why you have the type of system that you have.  It‘s a system right now that‘s disgusting Americans.  And I‘m telling you what, it‘s going to cause real problems for the Republicans a year from now in the off-year elections. 

COSBY:  Joe, thank you very much. 

And, Tucker, what‘s the buzz, first of all, on your ashes, and what‘s the buzz on the new “SITUATION”?

TUCKER CARLSON, MSNBC HOST:  Well, see, that‘s why I like serving on MSNBC with Joe.  I know he‘ll never bring an investigation against me. 

We have an investigation tonight, though, into the claim you often hear that America‘s poor fight America‘s wars.  It‘s a total crock, it turns out.  A brand-new study released today show that, in fact, people who join the military to fight in Iraq are, on average, better educated and more affluent than average people.  It‘s amazing.  And it goes against a lot of stereotypes that have been persistent in American life for about 30 years.  And we hope to overturn them tonight at 11:00. 

COSBY:  Oh, that‘s surprising.  We‘ll be tuning in.  Thank you very much, Tucker.  Thank you very much.

And again, everybody, 11:00 Eastern time.  First Joe, then Tucker. 

You got to tune in for these guys. 

And, everybody, next on LIVE & DIRECT, three months after Katrina, the hurricane season has finally, finally ended.  But don‘t breathe a sigh of relief just yet.  Maybe next year is going to be as bad.  And, also, we‘ll tell what‘s coming up also with the winter. 

And caught by Cosby:  Police cameras are rolling during a shooting in Tennessee.  So why are the cops in trouble?  That‘s ahead on LIVE & DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Winter weather is pounding parts of the U.S., as you can see.  South Dakota‘s governor says a blizzard in the state is the worst in nearly a decade, with as many as 20 inches of snow.  And in Minnesota, school kids are getting an extended Thanksgiving vacation.  And slippery roads from North Dakota to Colorado are being blamed for five deaths there. 

Well, while winter is here, hurricane season is officially ending tomorrow.  And forecasters are already saying the wild weather is not over yet. 

2005 rewrote the record books.  And Mother Nature might break them again next year.  Joining me now to explain all of this is chief climatologist at Weather 2000, Jeff Schultz. 

You know, Jeff, before we get into the hurricane season, I want to sadly break the news, what you were telling us about the winter season.  Is this going to be the worst that we‘re seeing? 

JEFFREY SCHULTZ, CLIMATOLOGIST, WEATHER 2000:  Yes.  We‘re going to see a lot of volatility this winter season.  We‘re going to see cold Arctic outbreaks plunging down from Canada.  We‘ve already seen a preview of that last week.  And we‘re going to see a lot of volatility. 

What‘s happening is that the entire atmosphere sometimes gets stuck into a system where you have blocking ridges of high pressure, and they allow for these Arctic outbreaks to plunge down. 

COSBY:  You explained to me, this is the cycle.  And you were saying, between World War II and 1970, there was a sort of vicious violent weather cycle.  We‘re, what, how many years into this cycle now? 

SCHULTZ:  It‘s a 20- to 30-year cycle.  And if go from the end of World War II through 1970, that was an active phase.  Then you go from 1970 through ‘95, there was an inactive phase. 

COSBY:  We‘re in an active phase now?

SCHULTZ:  And ‘95 through the present, and beyond, will be another active phase. 

COSBY:  How many more—are we talking about another, like, 10 years or so of this phase? 

SCHULTZ:  Yes, another 10 or 15 years, we‘re going to experience more of these active hurricane seasons, maybe not as destructive and devastating as this one, but certainly more hurricanes on their way. 

COSBY:  What can we expect for 2005?  I mean, as we look at, you know, it‘s gone into the Greek alphabet, as you know all too well, are we expecting to see that next year, too? 

SCHULTZ:  Yes, I don‘t know if we‘ll make the Greek alphabet, but it most likely will be more severe, and more intense, and more frequent than average.  Average is about 10 hurricanes.  And we may see, you know, upwards 15 to 20 again, perhaps not as many named storms. 

COSBY:  But some pretty strong ones?

SCHULTZ:  Exactly. 

COSBY:  You know, I just came back from New Orleans.  I was there last week.  Poor New Orleans, still, you know, barely rebuilding at all.  Could they be hit again in the next year or so? 

SCHULTZ:  Yes, they‘re certainly well-exposed.  The entire coastline from Texas to Maine actually holds about 50 percent of the U.S. population.  And with the build-up of more expensive homes and more people, there‘s much more exposure to these hurricanes.  So, say, a hurricane hitting those areas in 1900 didn‘t cause as much damage, but it‘s a completely different story now. 

COSBY:  It is just a sad situation.  Jeff, thank you very much. 

SCHULTZ:  My pleasure.

COSBY:  Thank you for breaking the bad news to all of us, unfortunately. 

And of course, everybody, we want you to go to rita.MSNBC.com.  Send us your questions, first of all, if you want to talk about the weather, whatever you want to talk about.  Also, we also have a blog on there about San Quentin, my visit there with Tookie Williams. 

And we want to hear your questions about the Natalee Holloway case.  Tomorrow, we‘ve got a six months later special, one-hour special, six months later, Aruba mystery.  We want to ask some of your questions on the air tomorrow night, so be sure to put them on our blog.  We‘ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Caught by Cosby.  Two Tennessee cops busted after firing on an unarmed woman.  They were trying to pull her over for different tags.  They arrested her, but she was not injured, luckily.

And that does it for me tonight.  Joe Scarborough starts right now, with all that stuff on D.C. corruption - Joe.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

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