RITA COSBY, HOST: The Natalee Holloway mystery, new clues, the suspects, the boycott. For six agonizing months, Natalee‘s parents have braved the world, demanding answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S MOTHER: We are just doing everything we possibly can in helping to, you know, further the search for Natalee.
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COSBY: Tonight, we‘re going after the truth. Are Aruban investigators really trying to get answers? Have the real suspects gotten away? Tonight, answers to the tough questions about who‘s seeking justice.
Plus, for the first time, you‘ll hear the controversial interview with one of the prime suspects, raw and unedited, as he answers tough questions about the night Natalee vanished. Tonight, “The Aruba Mystery Six Months Later.”
Good evening, everybody. I‘m Rita Cosby. Thank you for joining us for our special tonight. We have gotten so many e-mails from all of you, and we hope to get to a lot of them during this hour.
We start tonight with that controversial interview of Deepak Kalpoe that‘s causing a firestorm in Aruba. We have obtained the unedited version recorded by polygraph expert Jamie Skeeters for the Dr. Phil show. Aruban officials now claim that the tape was manipulated when it was originally broadcast on that show. So tonight, we‘re going to let you hear both versions. Can you tell the difference?
First, here‘s the version as it aired on Dr. Phil‘s show.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: And the question I‘ll ask you is if you intentionally killed her.
DEEPAK KALPOE, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: No.
SKEETERS: If it was an accident, I can help all of you. If you guys were partying, even if someone had given her a date drug—I‘m sure she had sex with all of you.
KALPOE: She did. You‘d be surprised how simple it was.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: And Aruban officials say that the interview that you just heard was manipulated, cut down from a much longer version. Even more important, they say, Deepak actually gave a very different answer to that last question. Here is their version of that very same clip.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SKEETERS: And the question I‘ll ask you is if you intentionally killed her.
DEEPAK KALPOE, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: No.
SKEETERS: If it was an accident, I can help all of you. If you guys were partying, even if someone had given her a date drug—I‘m sure she had sex with all of you.
KALPOE: No, she didn‘t. You‘d be surprised how simple it would have been.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: So again, here is the sentence that is in question, the big sentence in question. On Dr. Phil‘s version, Deepak Kalpoe says, “You‘d be surprised how simple it was,” referring to did they all have sex with Natalee. The Aruban version is, “You‘d be surprised how simple it would have been.” Clearly, a big difference.
Now, tonight, we were supposed to be joined by Jamie Skeeters—he‘s the man who made those tapes—but we were told just a short bit ago that the Dr. Phil show said that, as we speak, he‘s undergoing a polygraph test. The Dr. Phil show also would not come on the air with us tonight. We did invite them on.
So joining us by phone on the Aruban side, Arlene Ellis Schipper. She‘s an attorney and she‘s a member of the island‘s Strategic Communications Task Force. We also have with us former FBI profiler and MSNBC analyst Clint Van Zandt.
Arlene, I‘m going to start with you. Do you maintain that these two tapes are manipulated? It‘s hard to hear. I mean, even when we were listening to it, we couldn‘t really tell what the words were.
ARLENE ELLIS SCHIPPER, ARUBAN STRATEGIC COMM. TASK FORCE: Well, first of all, Rita, you state that it‘s the Aruban version. It is not the Aruban version. This was a CD-ROM sent by Mr. Skeeters to the police. And this CD-ROM has been sent by the Aruban officials to the NFI, the Dutch Forensic Institute, which had four separate investigators look at this tape and came up with the result that this tape has been manipulated (INAUDIBLE) Dr. Phil, that is, in comparison to the CD-ROM of Mr. Skeeters, that was not.
And I have reviewed this CD-ROM. And you don‘t have the image with it, but he also shows body language, shaking his head no when he says, “No, she didn‘t.”
COSBY: Let me bring in Clint Van Zandt because, Clint, I mean, yes, it‘s a Dutch Forensic Institute, but it‘s also—these are the same guys who are attached to the Aruban authorities. It‘s basically, one and the same government, so it is their side. But again, have you listened to the tape at all? Have you had a chance, Clint?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, yes, I‘ve heard both, and it‘s—you know, there is a difference. The question is, Rita, where does this difference come from? Number one, you know, the tape was originally, like, 60 minutes long, and obviously, Dr. Phil‘s show had to edit that down. Now, did the editing cause some problem with the tape?
And number two, Dr. Phil‘s show got the tape from Jamie Skeeters to begin with, not a tape but a copy, so whatever they aired, one initially has to assume they played whatever Jamie Skeeters gave them. So that puts it back now on Jamie.
I mean, can he lay two tapes side by side and say, Here‘s the exact thing I gave to Dr. Phil, here‘s the exact thing I gave to the Arubans? Somebody‘s going to have to listen to those and see if there was, in fact, a difference.
COSBY: Absolutely. In fact, hold on, guys, because the Dr. Phil show
that clip, of course, was edited. I want to show all our viewers, all of you at home more of Jamie Skeeters‘s conversation. This is the unedited version. Let‘s listen in.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SKEETERS: If you guys were partying or gang-banging and—and—if somebody had given her a date drug...
SKEETERS: ... if participated in it, and if (INAUDIBLE) did give her a date drug, they can‘t prove it. But I‘m not going to ask you.
SKEETERS: But if that happened, that‘s not murder. She—no, but you didn‘t—nobody forced her to drink that night.
SKEETERS: Nobody told her that you can‘t (DELETED) her, you know? I mean, and I‘m sure she had sex with all of you and (INAUDIBLE)
SKEETERS: OK. Well, then, good. If she did, then fine.
KALPOE: You‘d be surprised how simple it (INAUDIBLE)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Clint, are we ever going to know sort of what those words are? And do you think it‘s something that the FBI—my understanding is—when Jamie was on this show, he did say that the FBI had just picked up the tape. I think that was about a week or two ago. Why don‘t we hear from the FBI to sort of settle this out?
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, it‘s kind of interesting, Rita. Jamie called me on the phone and he said—he said, Clint, you‘re an ex-FBI agent, I‘d like to give you the hard drive of my computer and have you take it to the FBI. Well, you know, the last thing you want to do is put yourself in the chain of evidence.
So I said, You know, Jamie, even though the Arubans haven‘t written a letter yet and officially asked the FBI, I said, you need to take that right to your local FBI field office and let them handle it. Don‘t get anybody else involved in the chain of evidence. So you know, I thanked him for considering me, but I backed off. So now it‘s going to be in the hands of the—the Dutch have looked at it, the FBI, and somebody else independently needs to.
COSBY: Well, my question is, do you think we‘re going to hear the FBI step up? Because we haven‘t heard their version. They may very well back the Arubans. Real quickly.
VAN ZANDT: Well, they very—they may. And then the issue is, Did Dr. Phil do any alteration, or was he given an altered tape to begin with?
COSBY: Good question. Do we know, Arlene, sort of the chain of custody? Where do you believe, if there was a manipulation, that it happened?
SCHIPPER: Well, first of all, I want to correct Mr. Van Zandt. He says that the Aruban officials did not ask—made an official request of the FBI. That is incorrect. Two weeks ago—more than two weeks ago, the Aruban officials had done that request through an MLAT (ph) procedure, which is a mutual legal assistant procedure, because it was not volunteered. And on the basis of that, Mr. Skeeters brought his hard drive to the FBI.
SCHIPPER: And as a matter of fact, what struck me odd...
COSBY: Real quick. Arlene, you got to answer my question.
SCHIPPER: ... that on my hard drive...
COSBY: Arlene, real quick, just real quick, the chain of custody. Do we know who did the editing? Do we know if it was Jamie Skeeters, Dr. Phil? And is there any legal action that you guys are thinking, if, indeed, you‘re correct?
SCHIPPER: Well, legal action has not been decided upon. And we, of course, are waiting for the results of the hard drive investigation. And no, we don‘t know who did the editing.
COSBY: OK, thank you very much, Arlene. We appreciate it. And if you get any more information, come back to us. And also, please stick with us, Clint. We‘re going to have you on later on in the show.
And of course, no one is more interested in getting to the truth than Natalee Holloway‘s parents. I asked her mom, Beth Holloway, about the significant of these tapes and their role in the investigation into her daughter‘s disappearance.
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And you‘ve listened to the tapes, the famous sort of Deepak tapes. You‘ve heard everything. You know, Aruban authorities are saying some of it was manipulated. Do you believe that? Was anything taken out of context?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S MOTHER: You know, Rita, when they use the word “manipulated,” they really need to use the word “edited.” And the tape that they‘re saying was manipulated was the one that was shown on Dr. Phil, it was edited. It was edited for television. You can‘t get a 20-second or a 6-second sound bite out of two-and-a-half hours. And you know, yes, Deepak did respond to Jamie‘s question that they all had sex with her. And he even (INAUDIBLE) You‘d be surprised how simple it was that night.
COSBY: So there was nothing taken out of context, as they‘re even suggesting?
TWITTY: No, not that I could see, Rita. But you know, I know that Jamie Skeeters will have to give the information on the tapes, but I do stand by him and his validity on the tapes, Rita.
COSBY: How troubling is it for you that the person who‘s, you know, investigating the case of your daughter‘s disappearance is now suggesting that these tapes are manipulated? Does that trouble you that there‘s sort of back-and-forth, when Jamie Skeeters maintains that everything was in the true context?
TWITTY: Well, you know, Rita, when I think about what they have done, it‘s what they‘ve done all along. They just try to lose focus of these suspects. And really, take the taped interview and set it aside. Let‘s go back to the facts here. You know, they‘ve had evidence all along. They‘ve had a statement from Joran Van Der Sloot that admitted to having sex with my daughter at his home. He has her coming in and out of consciousness. I mean, I think that they are just trying to, you know, lose the focus once again on the suspects.
COSBY: Do you think it‘s OK that these tapes are to be released to the public? The public can judge them for themselves.
TWITTY: Oh, I mean, I—there‘s a lot of other information on the tape that I would love for people to be aware of. I mean, even Deepak‘s response to Jamie Skeeters that, If Joran knows what‘s good for him, he will keep his mouth shut. I mean, it just goes back to these three suspects. They know exactly what they did with my daughter, and they know where she is, Rita.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that‘s Beth Holloway. Well, of course, let‘s get reaction now from Natalee Holloway‘s father. LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is Dave Holloway. He‘s been listening to Jamie Skeeters‘s full and unedited interview with Deepak Kalpoe. Dave, I know the whole conversation. I understand it‘s a little over two hours. How much of it have you heard? Have you heard all of it?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FATHER: I listened to all of it this afternoon.
COSBY: Was anything doctored, anything manipulated? What I mean is, anything taken out of context?
HOLLOWAY: No, I don‘t believe so. I think what Dr. Phil‘s show did
was edited the tape. From what I can understand, you know, this tape has -
the air-conditioner came on about the time Deepak walked in the room, so you‘ve got a lot of snow in there. But essentially, from what I understand, he said—there was kind of a stutter after Jamie asked the question, and that stuttering part I believe was taken out of the tape. And then he said, No, we did. You‘d be surprised how easy it was that night.
COSBY: Do you believe, based on everything you‘ve heard...
HOLLOWAY: I think what the Aruban...
COSBY: Do you believe he‘s saying that they did have sex with her?
Is that what you believe?
HOLLOWAY: Oh, yes. Absolutely. You can‘t have a negative and then turn around and then support it with a positive. I mean, they‘ve got to put the whole sentence together for it to make sense. If they said, No, we didn‘t, and then turn around and said, You wouldn‘t believe how simple it was, that just—that just doesn‘t make sense.
COSBY: All right, Dave. Thank you very much. And please stick with us because you‘re going to be with us throughout this hour. We have a lot more questions to ask you.
And coming up, everybody, your e-mails and the questions that you want answered. I‘m going to take you also back to the island. I went there firsthand and returned to some of the key spots that might hold clues to what happened. We‘re going to show you that and a lot more tonight.
Still ahead: the investigation, what‘s really going on? Are Aruban police really working for justice, or are higher powers trying to make it go away?
And the boycott. Is it getting results? The tough-talking philanthropist who‘s keeping the pressure on the island joins us live.
And if you were Natalee‘s parents, would you turn to a psychic? Tonight, the woman who was the inspiration behind hit TV show “Medium” tells me if there‘s any clues from the other side. It‘s all coming up as our Aruba special continues.
COSBY: And we‘re going to get to some of your e-mails later on in the show. Today, of course, marks six months since Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway vanished during her trip to the island of Aruba. Tonight, we want to take you on a tour of the hours leading up to Natalee‘s disappearance. Julia Renfro with the newspaper “Aruba Today” showed me where Natalee Holloway and Joran Van Der Sloot first crossed paths.
JULIA RENFRO, “ARUBA TODAY”: They met at the casino at the blackjack tables as Joran and Natalee‘s friends were playing. It was approximately 9:30 PM. And from there, it was mentioned to Joran that the girls were going to go out to Carlos and Charlie‘s. We know that Natalee and her friends arrived at Carlos and Charlie‘s before midnight and that Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers arrived well after midnight, closer to 12:30.
COSBY: But we know for a fact that they did leave together (INAUDIBLE)
RENFRO: One hundred percent. One hundred percent they left together.
COSBY: Tell us about the lighthouse.
RENFRO: When Joran was initially questioned by the police and the Twitty family, he immediately said that once Natalee was in the car, she had asked for a ride back to the Holiday Inn, she had mentioned that she wanted to see a few sights because it was her last evening. So they came up here to the lighthouse, according to the story, and looked at the view. Also, they said that they never actually got out of the car. They just looked around.
COSBY: So there‘s a possibility that they were still at the lighthouse?
RENFRO: It‘s a good possibility. At this point, we really don‘t know. I believe that the police and the Dutch investigators (INAUDIBLE) continue to rehash this story over and over. Joran‘s final story is that he dropped—or he was with Natalee on the beach at the fisherman‘s hut.
COSBY: Yes, where‘s the fisherman‘s hut?
RENFRO: The fisherman‘s hut is right down there. And if you look, there‘s a straight road across to the pond. And this is the pond that they spent four if not five days pumping.
COSBY: This is also where the gardener claims he saw a gray Honda parked in the middle of the night...
COSBY: ... with Joran and also the Kalpoe brothers.
COSBY: So this is right in line. I heard a lot about the landfill.
Tell us the significance.
RENFRO: Well, there was a witness that came forward. And as it turns out (INAUDIBLE) was a little bit wild and a little bit crazy. He said that he saw a group of anywhere from five to seven people. At first, he thought it was a palm tree. And then later, he realized that it might have been (INAUDIBLE) woman with blond hair blowing in the wind.
COSBY: We‘re going over Joran‘s place right now. Where is his apartment that‘s adjacent to the house?
RENFRO: His apartment would be to the left of the swimming pool.
COSBY: And we know that the authorities checked his apartment?
RENFRO: Yes, the authorities, as well as the FBI with two dogs. They were able to collect several bags full of clothing, information, computers.
COSBY: Do we know what time he was home?
RENFRO: He says that he was home at 3:00 in the morning of the 30th.
COSBY: Do we know that Deepak and Satish were with Joran that night with Natalee?
RENFRO: Yes, they claim to have dropped Joran and Natalee off at the beach at 1:50. And then from there, they claimed to be home at 2:00 o‘clock. From there, Deepak received a text message on his cell phone asking for a ride, and that was approximately 2:40, I believe.
COSBY: And now, of course, the Kalpoe brothers claim they did not give Joran that ride.
RENFRO: They claimed that they did not go pick up Joran that night.
COSBY: What is your sense (INAUDIBLE) as to what (INAUDIBLE) happen that night?
RENFRO: Well, now, there‘s several different versions, but the most significant version would be that there‘s a good possibility (INAUDIBLE) drowned or (INAUDIBLE) the water. And the reason why is because there doesn‘t seem to be any evidence at all on land.
COSBY: There have been as many dead ends in this mystery as there have been clues. We‘ve seen ground searches and also aerial searches. We‘ve watched dedicated investigators dig up a landfill and empty a lake.
Six months, and now still no answers.
Joining me to answer some of your questions—we‘ve got lots of e-mails—is Clint Van Zandt, also former FBI special agent Harold Copus, and the managing editor of Aruba‘s “Diario” newspaper, Jossy Mansur. And also still with us is Natalee‘s dad, Dave Holloway.
Dave, I‘m going to start with you because we got so many e-mails on this topic. So many people just, you know, want to get answers and help you find your daughter. One person asked—this is Jodie Hunsaker in Utah. This is her e-mail to us. She writes, “Where were the chaperones? Didn‘t she have to check out to leave? Why did her friends feel safe to let her go with these guys?”
What‘s your answer to her, Dave?
HOLLOWAY: Well, that‘s a good question. I believe there were some chaperones there at Carlos and Charlie‘s. When it let out, everyone just scattered and—you know, and there we go. The—and Deepak, I understand, led her off to the car. So to answer that question, I have no idea.
COSBY: Let me also get another question from another viewer. This is about the sort of makeshift grave that just came up on the beach there. This is from Joanne McDonald. A viewer writes us, “Has anyone dug up the beach under the cross that was placed there with Natalee‘s initials just to make sure it isn‘t a grave?”
Dave, have you—this is an area I know that you were really interested in. Has anyone checked to see if maybe there‘s a clue there? Maybe there‘s something there.
HOLLOWAY: Well, actually, a tourist had put that cross up. She was from the States. She came down there and was walking along the beach and decided to put up a memorial there at that spot. The dog teams have searched that a number of times. These dogs have a sensitivity of thousands of times of the human nose. So the cadaver dogs went through that area a number of times and have cleared it.
COSBY: OK. And let me go onto Clint, if I could. And everybody, if you could you keep your answers pretty short. I got a lot of e-mails on this topic. Clint, we‘ve got a question. This is from Bob Timm from Haughton, Louisiana. He asks, “Was the FBI permitted unobstructed access to evidence? What is the current position of the FBI?” Clint?
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, of course, the FBI has to speak for itself, but my understanding—let‘s take, for example, the interviews that—the FBI was never allowed, number one, to sit in live on the interviews, and number two, they were not allowed to ask the normal follow-up questions. The best the bureau had the chance to do was to look at a videotape. That‘s no way for the FBI to have to conduct an investigation. So I think that‘s part of the reason they may have packed up and went home.
COSBY: Good point. Now let me bring in a question. This is from Dr. Ron Weiss from Indianapolis, Indiana. This is for Harold Copus. Harold, “Is anyone looking for Natalee in the government-sanctioned brothels that the Netherlands runs around the world?” This is an area that you were looking at, Harold. Is anyone looking in those areas?
HAROLD COPUS, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: I don‘t think so. I think that‘s a horrible thing. I think that that‘s an area that you have to remember is only a 20 percent chance, at most, that she could be in a place like that.
COSBY: Let me ask, though, Harold—ask you about this. Carlos and Charlie‘s bar. This is from Diana Medwid from Connecticut. “What extent has the FBI investigated the nightly patronizing at Carlos and Charlie‘s bar? And what happened to the dig at the dump?” Incidentally, everybody, we—our producers, actually—when we were down in Aruba, went to Carlos and Charlie‘s bar. I understand we might even have some video of when we were there. We saw a lot of underage drinking, lots of kids just boozing, living it up, a lot of dirty dancing. It was certainly a place where sort of no rules...
But Harold, what extent has the FBI looked into it, and maybe this, you know, tip that maybe ecstasy or something was dropped in her drink?
COPUS: Well, I think that the drug connection is still very strong.
To the extent that the FBI was able to do that, it‘ll always be a debate. Like Clint said, basically, the FBI‘s hands were cuffed together. They weren‘t able to really do their job. Now, that dump, they did as best a search as they could, but you‘ve been there and I have, too, and that‘s a horrible place. It‘s—it wasn‘t something that only two or three people could do, and that‘s about all they had out there.
COSBY: Let me bring in Jossy Mansur. This is about the hotel security guards. Got a lot of e-mails. Frank from Los Angeles wants to know, Jossy, about the hotel security guards. “On what evidence were they arrested? Why did it take 10 days to find out their alibi was legitimate?” On what grounds did they pull these guys in, Jossy?
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, “DIARIO”: They pulled them in because of the declaration of Joran and the two Kalpoe brothers that they had dropped Natalee off at the Holiday Inn, that she stumbled and fell, and that these two security guards came to help her up. That was cause enough for them to be arrested, and they were held 10 days and then let go.
COSBY: And Jossy, real quick. I‘ve got the last e-mail here. “Do the experts say that it‘s likely that Natalee‘s body will never be found if she was dumped in the ocean?” This is from Teresa Pomeroy, who e-mailed us. Is it likely that maybe her body will never be found if it‘s in the ocean, Jossy?
MANSUR: It depends on what distance in the ocean she was dumped, if she was dumped. If it‘s pretty close, within a mile of the coast, yes, there is a possibility. If it‘s further out, no, the possibility is very nil. It‘s practically nonexistent.
COSBY: All right, guys. Thank you very much.
And everybody, when we come back, do you think that the boycott of Aruba will get results? The man putting the pressure on the island‘s government tells me why he is not giving up.
Plus, the psychic who was the inspiration of the TV show “Medium” tells me if a psychic could help solve the mystery of what happened to Natalee Holloway. Plus, we‘ll answer some more questions that you e-mailed in. A lot more coming up tonight.
COSBY: We continue our special now, “Aruba Mystery: Six Months Later.”
There are now a lot of people putting pressure on the Aruban government, people who believe that they let the prime suspects walk free. Alabama Governor Bob Riley announced a boycott of the island. Already two governors and a senator stand strong in support of that boycott.
And there are many other people across America ready to jump on the bandwagon in support of the Natalee Holloway case and the investigation. One of those people is philanthropist Joe Mammana, who has been helping the Holloway family.
Let‘s also bring in with us someone from the Aruban side, Aruban attorney and member of the island‘s strategic communication task force member, Arlene Ellis-Schipper, who joins us on the phone.
Joe, I want to start with you, because you have a pretty bold ad campaign that‘s coming on. And I want to show a little bit of it, a quote from one of the posters. This is one of the boycott posters. It says, “A safe care-free vacation, beautiful beaches, sun and fun, plus Aruba authorities guaranteed rapist, murderers get out of jail free.”
JOE MAMMANA, PHILADELPHIA PHILANTHROPIST: Correct.
COSBY: That‘s quite strong, Joe.
MAMMANA: It is what it is, Rita, you know? I‘ve watched this thing go around. It‘s like a hamster on a wheel.
You know, last week you have Jorge (ph) talk about they have free Internet on the beaches, it‘s a great place. You have Dompig blaming the Holloway family for a life insurance policy. Now you have their strategic command blaming these tapes. I mean, you might as well have Jeffrey Dahmer talking about eating disorders. This thing is getting absurd.
COSBY: When and where are you going to put out these posters? What‘s the plan?
MAMMANA: We are slowly putting a grassroots operation together. I was just on the phone with Laila Ali a little while ago, Muhammad Ali‘s daughter. She was telling us the support we‘re getting down south is unbelievable.
This is a slow train moving forward, gaining momentum. And when we hit it, we‘re going to hit from every angle, like I had promised you, Rita. You know me by now. I don‘t play any games. We‘re coming into this thing.
They started it. They had a chance to finish it. They didn‘t, so we‘re going to finish it.
COSBY: You know, Arlene, I want to get you to respond to that, but I‘m also going to get you to respond to one of our viewer‘s e-mails, because it sort of goes in sync with all of this.
This is from K.B. We had a lot of viewers send in tons of e-mails on this topic, very interested here in America. And K.B. writes, “If Aruba is satisfied with the way that this case has been handled, then our U.S. dollars of these two states”—referring to Alabama and Arkansas—
“should have no impact whatsoever. Why are they worried?”
What‘s your reaction, Arlene?
ARLENE ELLIS SCHIPPER, ARUBAN STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS TASK FORCE:
Well, first of all, you know, I could tell you Arubans take this case very seriously. A boycott will not further the investigation nor will it help. It will just hinder it.
The thing is that, you know, unfortunately sometimes cases are not solved as quick as we want them to be. But I can assure you this is an ongoing investigation.
And basically, you know, this is just—I cannot categorize this differently than an attempt to boycott in order to—actually, to blackmail, in order to force a certain result. And results, we cannot fabricate evidence. Then we‘d be in real trouble, if we would start to fabricate evidence just to please and appease...
MAMMANA: So hide it. Don‘t fabricate it. Hide it. You‘re doing a good job at that. Hide it. That‘s what you‘re doing.
SCHIPPER: Mr. Mammana, there‘s nothing about hiding. Cases like this happen all over. In Philadelphia, for instance...
MAMMANA: I‘m not worrying about all over. I‘m worrying about an American that you have on your island that we want back, cut and dry.
SCHIPPER: Mr. Mammana, if you would allow...
COSBY: Arlene, Arlene, Arlene, let—Arlene, I‘ve got to interrupt you. Let me let him ask you the question, at least. Joe Mammana, go ahead and ask your question to her.
MAMMANA: The only thing I‘m saying is, look, we‘re not after the Aruban people. Nobody wants to hurt the Aruban people. You know what though? To me, I‘m worrying about more than—one American to me is worth a million foreigners anywhere.
We want Natalee Holloway back. We want these pieces of trash that did something to her, who admitted it on a thousand other tapes that you people have that we have seen around the world, we want you to go and do something, take care of this, like—or take out your trash. Do something.
But do a public service. Go in there. Show the people. Get this blemish off the Aruban, and the Netherlands, and the Dutch people, and do what is right. Give her back to us, dead or alive. Bring her back to America where she belongs. She is one of us, cut and dry.
SCHIPPER: Mr. Mammana, Mr. Mammana...
COSBY: Arlene, go ahead. You have 15 seconds.
SCHIPPER: Yes, let me react to that. You know, Mr. Mammana‘s acting as if we don‘t want to solve this case. That is ridiculous. That‘s ludicrous. Aruba has nothing to gain by not solving this mystery.
And that is what it is. It is a missing person. It is a mystery.
And the people are working around the clock to try and solve this. Mr. Mammana just goes from one scenario. The police have to go about several scenarios.
I had the pleasure to meet all of these police officers this week, and they showed me all the different scenarios that they are investigating, because it‘s still a missing person‘s case. And there are hundreds of witnesses that each sustain different scenarios. That‘s the difficulty that they have to work with.
You know what? If Aruba could...
COSBY: Arlene, Arlene, I‘ve got to cut you—I‘ve got to cut you off. I do appreciate it. And I appreciate the passion on both sides here. Thank you very much. Joe and Arlene, thank you very much.
Meantime, of course, Natalee‘s mother has been watching this case so closely. She‘s very passionate. She‘s also grateful for the support, even as her family marks the somber occasion, six months.
COSBY: Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee has now came out in support of the boycott, a big-name governor in the scheme of things, too. How does it make you feel?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I think that‘s a huge support. I mean, of course, I‘m from Arkansas. I lived there for 18 years. And my family still resides in the state of Arkansas.
And, you know, I just think that it shows that, not only the citizens in Alabama are getting this message of a safety concern on the island of Aruba, but, you know, Arkansas, also. And that‘s all we‘ve ever wanted, Rita.
We truly feel that, until their lack of law enforcement practices can be evaluated, it is not safe for tourists to be on the island of Aruba right now. It is a risk that you take should you become a victim of a crime on that island.
COSBY: Beth, have you been disappointed that so far it is just Arkansas, you know, and the other state and Alabama? It‘s just those two states at this point. Would you like to see more jump on board?
TWITTY: You know, Rita, I‘m not disappointed at all. Absolutely, I am not disappointed at all. I feel—I truly feel that, if the other states were polled, that they would also show the support that Americans are taking a stand and it‘s a stand for safety.
And I think that the support is there. I don‘t think it has to be a state that comes forward to endorse it. I mean, I truly feel that the support is within each state, Rita.
COSBY: Do you think we‘ll start to see maybe some other states jump on board now that Arkansas has lended its name?
TWITTY: Well, I think it‘s a possibility, Rita. I think that that is something that has now been set into motion. And I just wouldn‘t be surprised if there were more states that come forward to endorse the boycott.
COSBY: What would you say to other governors who are considering a boycott in their state now that Arkansas has thrown its name in?
TWITTY: Well, you know, I just would like to remain hopeful that we are doing this and taking a stand for this for safety. And, you know, Rita, we want—if there‘s anything that can come good out of this, the one thing would be that maybe we could prevent this from happening to another mother and father, son or daughter, Rita. And no one, Rita—no one—would want to go through what the family has been through on the island of Aruba.
COSBY: And our heart just breaks for you every day, Beth. You know, as it‘s the sixth-month anniversary, how are you marking this day?
TWITTY: You know, Rita, I don‘t even know if I‘ve ever looked at time that has gone by. I‘ve tried to just take it day by day, because early on in the investigation, I would think—I would hear from the officials that we would have an answer tomorrow, or we‘ll have an answer at 4:00 p.m., or we‘re going to have an answer in two weeks.
And, you know, Rita, that just about killed me. It just about killed me. So now I don‘t look at dates at all.
COSBY: Are you amazed that that much time has passed?
TWITTY: Oh, yes. I mean, I just can‘t believe it‘s been six months. As I‘ve said, I think on June 5th they were telling us we‘ll have an answer at 4:00 p.m. today. I mean, if we go back and look at news footages, it‘s unbelievable of how many times they were telling us—they were telling us that we would have an answer. And we believed them. We believed them, Rita.
COSBY: A very emotional Beth Holloway on the six-month anniversary. Now, fueling the fire behind the boycott is the fact that, of course, that many of the suspects and, in fact, the three key ones are now out of jail.
Joining me now on the phone are two of their attorneys, Joran Van Der Sloot‘s attorney Antonio Carlo and Satish Kalpoe‘s attorney David Kock.
Antonio, I want to start with you, because we‘ve gotten so many e-mails, so, both of you, keep your answers short. So many folks have questions, specifically about your clients.
Let me first go to—this is from Rebecca Favor (ph). She asks, “I want to know why Aruban authorities aren‘t demanding a search of the Van Der Sloot properties, all areas of the main house and the grounds, including the well, the cistern that was cemented shut after Natalee went missing.
Antonio, I know they searched Joran‘s apartment. Did they ever search the rest of the property?
ANTONIO CARLOS, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT‘S ATTORNEY: My understanding is, yes, that they have searched the whole property.
COSBY: And what about this well, this cistern? Was there something that was cemented shut right after Natalee went missing?
CARLOS: I did not understand your question, Rita.
COSBY: They said there was a well, there was a well in the yard. And I‘ve heard this from a number of places, that there was a well in Joran‘s yard, whether it‘s his yard, or the parents‘ yard, that was cemented, that was closed shut after Natalee disappeared. And people are wondering, was there something there? Was that ever checked?
CARLOS: Oh, no, but there is no such thing as a well in the property.
So that‘s completely false.
COSBY: But you believe the entire property was checked, parents‘ house, backyard, everything?
CARLOS: I mean, I was not actually there during the search, of course. But my understanding is that the entire property has been searched.
COSBY: Let me move on, if I could. This is for David Kock. Let me through a question to you. This is from a viewer, Susan Quinn. She is from Nashville, Tennessee.
And she asks, “If Joran, Deepak and Satish had nothing to do with
Natalee‘s disappearance, why didn‘t they help look for her? My answer:
Because they knew where she was or wasn‘t.”
What do you have to say to that, David?
DAVID KOCK, SATISH KALPOE‘S ATTORNEY: You know, if you start saying that everybody here should look for a person, otherwise they are somehow involved or guilty, I mean, I think that would be the wrong type of way to categorize someone, no?
COSBY: But wouldn‘t it help, David, if he looked, if he did some sort of search? Because at least—you know, no one can disprove that they definitely spent time with her. They‘re the last people to basically see her alive. Shouldn‘t they have sort of done some sort of volunteer effort to look?
KOCK: Well, you know, don‘t forget that a period of time they were even in jail (INAUDIBLE) And you have here very qualified American search teams searching it. So, I mean, you know, three almost teenagers looking around for something, I don‘t think that would be very fruitful.
COSBY: All right. Let me bring in, if I could—let me go back to Antonio Carlo. This is a question about Deputy Chief Dompig. And this is a statement that he actually made on our air. This comes from Kevin McHugh in Trenton, New Jersey, not too far from us here.
And Kevin asks, “Since making the statement that he thought the three boys were, quote, ‘guilty as hell,‘ and he just had to prove it, it seems that Chief Gerald Dompig has not been seen or heard from. Where is he?”
That‘s twofold. Antonio, first of all, you know, you‘ve got the deputy chief on our show saying I believe all of the three boys are guilty as hell.
CARLOS: Well, of course, we don‘t agree with that statement. And...
COSBY: But you‘ve got to admit that‘s pretty strong coming from the acting chief of police.
CARLOS: Yes, yes, yes, of course, but you are allowed to know that we have made objections to that statement. And, you know, we are now awaiting the outcome of our motion.
COSBY: All right, Antonio. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. And, of course, we haven‘t heard the chief or seen too much of him too much recently. Both of you, thank you.
And coming up, are there any telltale signs in Aruba that might hold clues to what happened to Natalee Holloway? I‘ve been to some of them, and you‘ll see what I saw, coming up.
But next, a psychic medium joins me live. Could a psychic help solve this case? That‘s coming up next.
COSBY: Well, could a psychic help solve the Natalee Holloway mystery? Joining me now is medium Allison DuBois. She is the inspiration for the NBC hit show “Medium” and has not been involved with the Holloway case. And also, we want to bring in Natalee Holloway‘s father, Dave Holloway.
Dave, just one final question to you: Did you bring in a psychic?
Have you thought of going that route?
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FATHER: No, we haven‘t, Rita. A psychic came in with Texas EquuSearch, Maryann Morgan, and she gave her information to that team and us, as well.
COSBY: Have you thought about going that route down the road at all?
HOLLOWAY: Well, you know, our family is very religious. And, you know, we‘ve been brought up in the bible belt and really didn‘t have exposure to a psychic, so we really haven‘t pursued that avenue. But we‘re all open to suggestions.
COSBY: All right, Dave, thank you very much. And let me bring in Allison if I could.
Allison, do you think a psychic could help in this case? A lot of people—we‘ve gotten so many e-mails from folks asking about it.
ALLISON DUBOIS, PSYCHIC MEDIUM: Well, yes, one can help in this case.
It can help...
COSBY: How so? What could you learn? Could we learn who the suspects are, what happened to Natalee? What avenue...
DUBOIS: Well, in this case, you have the right suspects. I mean, they‘re completely guilty. The things that I would find important to be looking at, if I were working this case, would be, for instance, that these three boys have done this to other girls before that were visiting Aruba as tourists. It just hasn‘t escalated to murder, but I would look at the pattern that was set down by their past victims.
COSBY: Now, Allison, you said that these guys are completely guilty.
COSBY: You know, they haven‘t been convicted.
COSBY: Why do you say that?
DUBOIS: Well, fortunately, I can head tap people. That‘s what they use me to do for jury selection for the prosecution and to head tap people who commit murders. So I know that, just by looking at their picture, whether or not they committed the crime.
I can also tell you that Jordan Van Der Sloot‘s father knows a lot more than he‘s saying and, in my mind, is almost as guilty as they are, because he has helped to cover up this crime.
COSBY: Now, what is head tap? And what role, also, did Joran‘s father play, in your mind?
DUBOIS: Head tapping is when I basically can see through the eyes of the person who committed the crime. And I do understand Mr. Holloway‘s concern in religion. And I always say, if you‘re going to bring somebody in that does what I do to make sure you bring someone in that‘s valid, that has a track record, ethically, and, you know, that‘s able to bring in specific details of a crime.
And I don‘t think they should work necessarily with the parents of the victim, but the law enforcement involved, which makes it difficult in this case because it‘s a foreign government that‘s being dealt with, which makes it even more difficult.
COSBY: Now, Allison, you know, the big question everyone is wondering, is Natalee dead or alive? What‘s her state?
DUBOIS: Well, and with all due respect to the parents, and I hope I say this with sensitivity, you know, she was not sold on the black market. She, you know, has passed. And I think, right now, we‘re just working to maybe find a little justice for her.
And I‘m all for the boycott, because any pressure that you put on the government is going to be good in getting something out of them other than what they‘ve offered up.
COSBY: And real quick, I don‘t know if you can foresee the future, but will we see closure to this case, real quick?
DUBOIS: I actually do think one of the boys will turn on the other boys and offer up something that will lead to a resolve of the case. I always did see them near the water with her. So my concern is that Van Der Sloot knew exactly where to put her, water-wise, where the decomposition or the elements in the water would make it so that she would not be found.
COSBY: Allison, thank you very much. We appreciate having on.
Interesting, of course, the person who inspired “Medium” on TV. Thank you.
And up next, you‘re going to see what I saw when I went to some of the key places in Aruba.
COSBY: And I recently went to Aruba with former secret service agent Art Wood, who has been feverishly searching for evidence.
COSBY: Art, the lighthouse is critical. Why?
ARTHUR WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Well, I‘ll tell you why it‘s critical. The significance of this is, that in the wee hours of the morning on May the 30th, the morning that Natalee disappeared, the Kalpoe brothers and Joran claim that they drove Natalee from Carlos and Charlie‘s to see the lighthouse. And that after that, they dropped her off at the Holiday Inn.
COSBY: What‘s important about the ground here?
WOOD: Well, what‘s important is that there‘s nowhere in Aruba where you can dig. If you look at this, it‘s all coral. It‘s solid rock. And the only place in Aruba is the sand dunes where it would be possible to bury a body without an excavator to dig through this rock.
COSBY: Which is line of sight from the lighthouse when you look...
WOOD: When you look at the dunes, that‘s correct. There‘s several places in Aruba where they have dunes, but this is the most prominent one. And I started digging around right here in these dunes here and a belt popped out.
COSBY: Where exactly in the dune did you find the belt? Was it buried in the sand?
WOOD: Yes, it was buried in the sand. And I was just kind of digging around. And I felt something, and this belt popped out. I mean, I was laying in bed that night, and I thought, “Man, I‘ve seen that belt before.” So I went to the newspaper the next morning. I got the resource file out. And I looked at the picture that Joran had on his website, the website which no longer exists. There‘s a picture of him with his belt around a young man‘s neck. It‘s stretched out like he‘s choking the kid.
COSBY: You believe it‘s the same belt?
WOOD: If it‘s not the same belt—there‘s no way I can determine that, without forensic evidence, you know. But it certainly appears to be the same belt.
COSBY: What are some of the theories of what happened here in the dunes that night?
WOOD: Well, we know that the boys claimed to have come out here around the lighthouse. We also know that the brothers say Joran was molesting her in the back seat of the car. Joran himself claims to have left her on the beach asleep. There‘s a lot of theories in this case. One of them is that this girl overdosed, and died, and they buried her in the dunes.
COSBY: And one of our viewers e-mailed us about that belt that Art was just talking about. It is still in police custody in Aruba. They said it was too old to test.
We will, of course, continue to follow the Natalee Holloway story here on LIVE & DIRECT. And, if you want to read more about Natalee, just go to our website, rita.msnbc.com. We‘re going to be right back.
COSBY: And as you‘ve been hearing throughout the show, we have been asking all of you to send in your e-mails with any questions that you have on the Natalee Holloway case. These are just a few of the ones—if you can take a look—several hundred that we got in just today alone.
So please keep your e-mails coming. Keep your questions coming. We will continue to try to get as many answers as we could as possible. We‘re going to follow this case closely. Be sure, if you want to look at some of the other e-mails, and also hand in your e-mails, please make sure that log onto rita.msnbc.com.
And, of course, before we go tonight, we do have a programming note. A big, exciting trip in the works. We are taking LIVE & DIRECT on the road to Afghanistan. We‘re traveling with the World Wrestling Entertainment, WWE, for their annual troop tribute tour.
Some of the wrestlers on the tour are going to include, Triple H, John Cena, Kurt Angle, Ric Flair, JBL, just to name a few. I‘ll also take a look at the daily life of the U.S. troops as they fight the war on terrorism.
“In the Warzone” will air Wednesday, December 7th, and Thursday, December 8th, at 9:00 p.m. Eastern time, live from Afghanistan.
And that‘s LIVE & DIRECT tonight. I‘m Rita Cosby. Now to Joe.
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