updated 12/14/2005 2:58:14 PM ET 2005-12-14T19:58:14

Guesst: Vernell Crittendon, Kevin Fagan, Steve Cohen, Carl Jeffers, Pat Campbell, Beverly Kidwell, Rick Schulte, Lisa Guerrero, Suzy Walker, Bethany Marshall

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody, as we continue LIVE AND DIRECT tonight from San Francisco.  Did the cops go too far when they tasered this grandmother?  You will see the shocking videotape.  And a big development in the Natalee Holloway investigation that could set back the case for months.  Wait until you hear what is going on in Aruba.

But first: Emotions are still high after the dramatic execution of gang leader Stanley “Tookie” Williams, which took place just a few miles from where I‘m sitting now.  As you may know, I was one of 17 media witnesses who watched as Williams was put to death early this morning at San Quentin state prison.  To the bitter end, Williams was defiant, claiming that he was not guilty of the four brutal murders for which he was convicted.  A loud crowd of thousands of people protested outside of the prison gates as the moment to his execution drew near.  While they were outside, myself and 49 other people were inside, witnessing the execution firsthand.

Joining me now are two people who were also inside there with me, witnessing Williams‘s final moments, San Quentin prison spokesman Vernell Crittendon and also Kevin Fagan with “The San Francisco Chronicle.”

Vernell, I want to start with you.  Tell me where his body is now. 

Who took his body?

VERNELL CRITTENDON, SAN QUENTIN PRISON SPOKESPERSON:  We have a contract set up with a local mortuer (ph), who then would claim the remains.  We‘ve set arrangements up with Stanley Williams‘s legal team, and they will be making the arrangements for a funeral parlor to go and pick up the remains from the mortuer.

COSBY:  And when—has it been transferred?  Where exactly is his body right now, Vernell?

CRITTENDON:  As I understood as of earlier this morning, he was still with the mortuer in Marin County and had not been picked up.  And that‘s not unusual that it will take 24 to 72 hours before the loved ones will have the remains picked up from the mortuer.

COSBY:  You know, Vernell, we were hearing Barbara Becnel—this is the woman who has been supporting Stanley “Tookie” Williams, fighting his cause for about a decade.  There were some remarks that she made today essentially saying there‘s going to be a big funeral.  They‘re hoping to plan a big memorial service in Los Angeles, a big tribute to this man.  She said, quote, “the likes of Civil Rights activist Rosa Parks.”  Is this what Stanley “Tookie” Williams deserves, in your mind?

CRITTENDON:  Well, this is something that I‘m sure his supporters will be willing to rally to, but I won‘t attending.

COSBY:  Yes.  What do you think, though, about the analogy of him being compared to Rosa Parks?  This is a man who was co-founder of the Crips and convicted of four brutal murders.

CRITTENDON:  Well, I find it a little disturbing to hear him compared to Rosa Parks, as his legacy is the Crip gang with the crime violence that is associated with it.  Rosa Parks has made significant changes that affected a mass group of people.  So I find it a little disturbing to hear this comparison.

COSBY:  You know, Kevin, you were in there with me, as was Vernell. 

You‘ve seen a lot of executions.  This was the first one that I got to see. 

How did this one compare to other ones that you‘ve experienced?

KEVIN FAGAN, “SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE,” EXECUTION WITNESS:  This one was different.  In other lethal injections, you‘re essentially standing in there and it looks like the guy is going to sleep.  There‘s not a lot of action.  He rarely says anything to anybody, rarely looks at anybody.

As you know, Rita, Williams was—he was looking around a lot.  He looked at us.  He looked at his supporters.  He looked—he talked to the guards.  He murmured as if he was praying.  I swear I think he was praying while he was laying there a lot.  It was more animated than usual.  And of course, the outburst at the end, when the trio shouted what they shouted, and they did black power fist salutes—I thought it was very dramatic, compared.

I saw the last gassing.  This is the sixth one I‘ve watched in San Quentin.  And the last gassing was a lot more—it had a lot more animation to it, and the lethal injection is considered a much more benign way to put someone to death.  This had more to it.

COSBY:  You know, Kevin, also, the victims‘ families because we saw a lot of family members from Albert Owens.  He was the store clerk who was...

FAGAN:  Yes.

COSBY:  ... you know, of course, Williams was convicted of killing back in 1979.  I saw his stepmother there, Lora Owens, also looked like some of the family members.  The reaction I saw, wiping away tears, it was a very somber moment for them.  What did you see?

FAGAN:  Oh, yes.  I saw Lora Evans—I mean Owens—definitely—she burst into tears when that shout happened.  It was—it looked very sad.  For me, the highest tension in the execution chamber is among the victims of the family and then also among the supporters of the condemned man.  These are people with a lot of huge emotion invested in this process, and it tears them up on both sides to see this happen.

And Lora Owens just—I mean, my heart really went out to her.  She looked like she was really struggling with it at the end because it seemed to me that she sat stonefaced through the whole thing.  She was really trying to hang onto it, as were the other women the front row.  And of course, we have no idea who many of the people in that room were.  God knows what was going through their minds.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  It was hard to watch.  And gentlemen, hold on, if you could, because I want to share some now—some of the sights and the sounds from inside and outside that were taking place during Tookie Williams‘s execution.  Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  (SINGING)  Turn us around, keep on walking...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Mr. Williams was transferred from visiting to the death watch cell at 6:00 PM.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Stanley Tookie Williams has more courage in his little finger than all these criminal justice technocrats and bureaucrats have in their entire being.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He murdered four people, you know?  What about—what about the families?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  His demeanor has been described to me as complaisant, quiet, thoughtful.

STEVEN ORNOSKI, SAN QUENTIN WARDEN:  He refused food but was requested and was provided with milk, and I believe also water.  He invited five witnesses but declined to invite a spiritual adviser.  He was executed by lethal injection shortly after midnight.  He was pronounced dead at 00:35 military time.

COSBY:  His breathing became very, very labored.  His stomach was contracting in extreme form.  But then it took several more minutes.  It took at least 10 more minutes for him to actually die.

FAGAN:  It seemed like toward the very end, he was trying to keep his head up.  Did you see this  too?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes.

FAGAN:  He was trying to keep his head up as long as he could until the first drugs hit him.

KIM CURTIS, ASSOCIATED PRESS:  He kept lifting his head, shaking his head, putting it back down, almost as if—it seemed like disgust to me and frustration.  And I thought he said—I don‘t know if anyone else heard this but—You doing that right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He was trying to help them find a vein that would work for them.  He gave some suggestions.  He did seem frustrated that it didn‘t go as quickly as he thought it might.

BARBARA BECNEL, WILLIAMS SUPPORTER:  After the murder of Stanley “Tookie” Williams, and we were told to leave, as we left, we screamed in unison, “The state of California just killed an innocent man!”

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  At the very end, when those three yelled that out, the stepmom of one of his victims began to cry.  So that was a very emotional element of this particular execution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  It was extremely intense and it was extremely emotional.  You know, Vernell, we also saw Stanley “Tookie” Williams saying some words.  I could see from my vantage point.  I know Kevin could, as well.  He was mouthing some words to some of the guards.  Have you found out exactly what he was saying to them in his final moments?

CRITTENDON:  Part of those discussions with the staff were—were talking about different veins that they may want to try, as he was trying to get more blood into his arm to assist in establishing the IV into the left arm, that we were having multiple tries in setting that IV into his left arm.

FAGAN:  He was pumping his fist, wasn‘t he, to try to get blood back into his arm?  Is that right?

CRITTENDON:  Well, Kevin, no.  Actually, his hands—fingers were taped out straight, but he was flexing his arm so that...

FAGAN:  That‘s what I meant.  That‘s what I meant.  Yes.

COSBY:  Trying to assist them, actually, Vernell, right, trying to actually help in the process.

CRITTENDON:  Right.

COSBY:  He seemed exasperated at one point.  He also didn‘t have any final words, right?  Why was that?  Did he pass it on—pass something on to Barbara Becnel that we may hear about down the road, Vernell?

CRITTENDON:  Well, that was my understanding that may have occurred.  But he had opted not to share any final statements with the warden, which we were going to take down and then release.  He opted not to.  But prior to that, during the day, we had received indications during his visiting that he was going to make some final statement, but he may do that through one of his supporters.

COSBY:  You know, Kevin, how would you describe his demeanor?  I used the words, when we were all interviewed afterwards, belligerent and defiant.

FAGAN:  Yes.

COSBY:  How would you—how would you sense from your vantage point?

FAGAN:  I don‘t know if I‘d go to belligerent.  He seemed determined to me.  He seemed determined to try to go through this procedure on his—as much as he could on his own terms.  He was trying to—it looked like he was trying maintain composure and to keep eye contact with his supporters.

I didn‘t feel hostility coming out from him.  When he turned back to look at us, it was a hard stare, but if I was strapped in at every point of my body and craning my head to look at what was behind me, I‘d probably have a hard stare, too.  It was hard to build in—I try very hard not to build in any emotion that I can‘t really determine myself.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  And it was hard to see.  I didn‘t get the sense he was intimidating.  One of the other witnesses was using the word that he was trying to intimidate us in the media.  I didn‘t feel that way, either.  I just thought it was sort of this intense—intense, very sort of determined stare.

Vernell, how do you think history‘s going to remember Stanley “Tookie” Williams?

CRITTENDON:  Well, I think that is yet to be seen, as I understand that there‘s still more that will be going on with this story, based on your report earlier that they will be planning something in the Los Angeles area.  So it‘s actually still—I think the story is still unfolding, and I‘m hoping that this man of peace that he preached to be will truly be that.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  Let‘s hope that that is the legacy.  And hopefully, his words and also just what happened to him last night will send a strong signal to all those gang leaders and followers across the world.  Both of you, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

And still ahead, everybody, chaos in the case of missing college student Natalee Holloway.  The Aruban government sends the entire investigation into disarray with one big move.

And talk about getting the shock of your life.  That‘s a grandmother -

that‘s right, a grandmother—being repeatedly hit with a taser gun. 

Did the police go too far?  The grandmother is going to join me live.  And later on, one woman shows us the unusual way she‘s dealing with being separated from her husband serving in Iraq.  It is quite creative, and it‘s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, there is news tonight of a shake-up in the investigation of missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway.  Two key figures in the case could soon be shown the door, while local police refuse to continue their hunt for clues.  Meanwhile, Alabama Congressman Spencer Bachus will host an Aruban delegation in Washington, D.C., this Friday.

Joining me now to talk about all this latest chaos in the case is Steve Cohen.  He‘s a special adviser to the Aruban government.  Steve, I want to ask you, first of all, why is this delegation coming to the U.S.?  What does it hope to achieve?

STEVE COHEN, SPECIAL ADVISER TO ARUBAN GOVERNMENT:  Well, the delegation that‘s going, it‘s basically a courtesy call.  When the governor, Governor Riley, imposed this boycott on Aruba, Congressman Bachus said to us, Why don‘t you come and visit with me and tell me everything you know about the investigation?  So we said, Look, give us a few weeks and we‘ll come by and we‘ll talk to you about it, and that‘s what we‘ve done.

COSBY:  You know, when you say it‘s a courtesy call, is this just sort of a PR game or PR show versus anything of substance?

COHEN:  No.  No, we‘re way past public relations here in the Natalee Holloway case.  Everything has to be substantive.  We‘re going to be giving him everything that we‘ve done since the release of the Kalpoes and Joran from the Kia (ph) institution on Labor Day, everything subsequent to that, as well as the first 10 days of the case.  So then he can ask us any question he wants.  And this is a deep background session, and that‘s its purpose.

COSBY:  You know, there‘ve been some rumors, and a lot of people saying that it looks like the lead prosecutor may be removed in this case.  What are you hearing?

COHEN:  Well, I‘ll tell you exactly what‘s happening.  The attorney general, Steve Croes, has had conversations with Karin Janssen for the last four to six weeks.  They‘ve been very serious conversations that go along these lines.  What do you have?  How quickly are you going to get to the end of this case?  And if you‘re not going to get there quickly, do I need to remove you?  The result of those conversations has been, Give me some more time.  We‘re going to try to accelerate this as fast as we can.

Now, the AG said to Karin, Look, I believe you, but I‘m going to bring in another prosecutor from Curacao to check all of the work that‘s been done on the case.  And that‘s where it is right now.

COSBY:  What can this prosecutor do that Karin Janssen hasn‘t done after all this time?

COHEN:  Well, that‘s a good question.  I think what this prosecutor does is bring a new set of eyes.  This individual can look at everything and say, That was a good pleading.  You‘ve missed this piece of evidence.  You could have been stronger here in front of the judge.

Remember that Janssen went to the judges four to five separate times, held Joran incarcerated and under interrogation for over 85 days.  So she did a lot of good work, it‘s just that she could never get a judge to give her the OK on the case that she brought forward.

COSBY:  Was because of the system of Aruba, or was it the evidence? 

What do you think sort of has been her shortcoming?

COHEN:  I don‘t think there‘s much question that the bulk of evidence is not weighty enough or has not been weighty enough, up to the release on Labor Day, to bring a case in terms of the way the Dutch judge is going to look at a case.  In the Dutch system, you have to have a preponderance of evidence before it‘s present to the judge, versus our system, where the evidence is revealed through the court process.

COSBY:  What about the deputy police chief, Gerold Dompig?  There‘s some word that maybe he might be removed from the case.  And he came on my show—I‘m sure you probably heard this, Steve—came on my show and said, quote, “The Three boys are guilty as hell.  I just have to prove it.”

COHEN:  I think there‘s no question that Gerold is loquacious.  He says what‘s on his mind.

COSBY:  Yes, he certainly does!

COHEN:  And he‘s a very tough guy.  You couldn‘t find a more honest

cop anywhere on the planet.  But at the same time, he‘s been very

frustrated.  You know, you spend six months on an investigation, do

everything you can, and then a new prosecutor is brought in.  Now, he was -

he took a—you know, an affront to that.  He thought it was a slap in the face.  He took a few days off with the cops on his team.  I‘m happy to say, as of tonight, that he‘s back on the case, as is his team.  Karin Janssen is instructing them.  And my expectation is that there‘s going to be an acceleration of efforts, not a deceleration, and we‘re going to try to move as quickly as we can towards whatever we can finally come up with that‘s either going to bring a case or not.

COSBY:  And Steve, you say that Gerold Dompig is an honest guy.  He‘s come on our show and said that these boys are guilty as hell.  Is that the assessment of the Aruban government, as well?

COHEN:  No.  I think the assessment of the government is that that‘s the most likely scenario, but we‘ve looked at four or five other scenarios, and every single scenario is being tracked so that we can figure out which one is going to lead us to a case.

COSBY:  All right, Steve, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

So what effect could all of these changes have on the future of this case?  LIVE AND DIRECT tonight are two radio talk show hosts who have been talking a lot about this case, Pat Campbell and also Carl Jeffers.  Pat, let me start with you.

PAT CAMPBELL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  Sure.

COSBY:  First, sort of the headline about this visit—this is the delegation from Aruba coming to Washington, D.C.—Steve says, you know, it will be substantive.  Is this sort of, you know, all a show?

CAMPBELL:  Well, I think it‘s a little damage control on behalf of Aruba.  They‘re not real...

COSBY:  A lot of damage control, right?

(LAUGHTER)

CAMPBELL:  Well, yes, a lot of damage control.  They‘re not wild about the fact that, you know, a boycott has been announced, and I they‘re trying to, you know, deal with that through diplomatic channels.

COSBY:  And Carl, what do you think?  Is it—is it a show?  Is it big damage control, or do you think anything‘s going to come out of that?

CARL JEFFERS, RADIO SATISH:  Well, those are three separate questions, Rita.  And by the way, welcome to the West Coast.  We love having you out here and hope you‘ll extend your stay and stay with us for a while.

COSBY:  Thank you.  I may become a legal resident.  You never know!

(LAUGHTER)

JEFFERS:  Well, we like legal residents out here on the West Coast, and especially in California.

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  (INAUDIBLE) especially your listeners.  I‘ve heard about your listeners.

(LAUGHTER)

JEFFERS:  Although in Seattle, certainly, there‘s a lot—there are borders on both ends.

You know, in terms of the show aspect of this, let‘s remember one thing.  Aruba depends on 75 percent of its economy from American tourism.  There‘s no question that any time that there is some sort of organized effort to boycott travel to Aruba, that could have a major impact.  So it‘s really not just show when they say that we must do more to demonstrate to the American people, perhaps, that we‘re doing everything we can to solve this case.

So I do believe that there‘s some substance to their desire to present a bolder face, if you will, on what their efforts are to try to resolve the case.  Having said that, however, let‘s be realistic about what the impact of this boycott is here in America.  Seventy-five percent of the people in Alabama say that they support the governor, who is, of course, organizing the boycott.  But you and I know, Rita, that 75 percent of the people in Alabama would just as soon not travel to Aruba even if there was no murder down there, and that‘s no disrespect to the good people of Alabama.  There‘s some good folks out in Ohio that, frankly, Aruba is not very high on their list, either.

I mean, Americans are simply not that involved with either the boycott

most of Americans don‘t even know there‘s a boycott.  And clearly, the idea that a congressman is organizing a session for representatives from Aruba to come and explain themselves kind of elevates this entire incident to the level of celebrity of a John Kennedy, Jr.  And I‘m not sure that we need to attribute that to that kind of importance.

And I would say finally that, you know what?  I am entirely happy with all of the efforts that are being made to try to resolve this case and all of the publicity.  I don‘t want to see any efforts reduced, and I‘m delighted that the parents, who are very aggressive, particularly the mother, are able to generate this kind of interest.

I just want to be comfortable that pretty much all American families can expect the same level of attention—congressional delegations, boycotts organized on a statewide level and representatives of their countries coming here to meet with our representatives if their own son or daughter is in a similar situation.  I think that we need to be concerned that everybody gets the same kind of treatment...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Absolutely.  It‘s got to be fair play.  You know, Pat

Campbell, we just heard from the representative from the Aruban government

Steve Cohen basically said he sees the case accelerating in the near future with the prosecutor and other folks and there may be a resolution of some form will come.  He didn‘t say where it was going to come from.  Do you believe that we‘ll see some resolutions in the...

CAMPBELL:  Well, a couple...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMPBELL:  I want to go back to the boycott real quick.  I do not—I do not support, I do not favor the boycott because most of the time, boycotts don‘t work.  In fact, many times, they backfire and...

COSBY:  Do you think it backfired here, Pat?

CAMPBELL:  Well, no, here, let me give you an example.  This doesn‘t make a lick of sense.  It would be like boycotting the state of Colorado because they never found the killer of JonBenet Ramsey.  The people of Aruba aren‘t responsible for this.  This is a law enforcement blunder.

Am I confident that this thing will be solved?  No, because it looks to me—you know, the first 24 to 48 hours of any investigation are critical.  And quite frankly, it looks like Barney Fife was running the investigation down in Aruba.

I just—on way to the studios here, I was reading an article in “Vanity Fair” where the law enforcement down in Aruba, they‘re actually blaming Natalee Holloway‘s parents because they put too much pressure on the Aruba police in the early days of the investigation.  That‘s garbage!

COSBY:  Yes, it is.  Give me a break, Carl.  I mean, what do you make of that comment?  Because yes, they are pointing the fingers, saying, How dare you put too much pressure!  It sort of forced us to look in different directions than we would have.  What do you make of that argument?  And real quick, Carl, do you think that this will solved soon?

JEFFERS:  Well, we don‘t know whether it‘ll be solved soon.  I do agree that the boycott makes—I mean, this boycott‘s about as popular as a topical ointment cream at a poison ivy convention.  Frankly, nobody really, that I can think of, that I‘ve talked to, even knows there is a boycott.

And I want to raise one larger issue, Rita.  Let‘s remember what this is about here.  This is about Aruba.  If this murder had taken place in England or France—well, maybe not France because we have a lot of Americans like to boycott France.  But if this was England or Sweden, there wouldn‘t be anybody here organizing a boycott to tell Americans not to travel to England or Sweden.  But it‘s Aruba.  It‘s a country of color.

We need to be sensitive to just what the motivations are and how easily we take for granted that we do things that we would not do in other situations.  And I only bring that up from a positive perspective, and let‘s not jump on the bandwagon for something here that we wouldn‘t apply that same standard if it were a different situation somewhere else.

COSBY:  All right, guys.  Interesting discussion.  Love to have both of you back on again.  Thank you so much.

And still ahead, everybody: Did a police officer go too far when he tasered a grandmother?  Well, the woman got the shock of her life a couple of times, and she‘s going to join me live.

And why did a professional sportscaster and TV host decide to pose nude for “Playboy”?  Lisa Guerrero is going to join me live and tell me.

Plus: This Navy wife explains the unusual way that she is standing by her man.  She‘s there.  He‘s serving overseas.  That‘s the real husband.  The fill-in is going to be joining us with her coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

APPLAUSE:  LIVE AND DIRECT from San Francisco, here again is Rita Cosby.

COSBY:  And it was a crime that shocked the nation, two brothers, Erik and Lyle Menendez, accused of brutally murdering their parents back in 1989.  The two claimed that they were fighting back after years of sexual and physical abuse.  But prosecutors say that the brothers killed to get their inheritance money and go on a shopping spree.  The brothers were convicted in 1996 and have been behind bars ever since.

I just spoke with Erik Menendez, who told me that the two brothers surprisingly have not spoken in 10 years.  Here‘s a quick peek of my exclusive interview with Erik Menendez.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIK MENENDEZ:  We have not seen each other or actually spoken to each other in 10 years.

COSBY:  And why is that?  Ten years?

MENENDEZ:  They will not—the prison system is keeping us apart.  We‘ve fought to be together, and we are not allowed to be together and they won‘t tell us why.  The last time I saw him was at 3:00 o‘clock in the morning when they chained us up and put us in separate vans.  And they didn‘t even tell us they were going to separate us.  And the next thing I knew, I never saw him again.

COSBY:  What would you say to your brother if you could see him after 10 years?

MENENDEZ:  That I love him and that I miss him and that our bond that we‘d shared will never diminish, will never go away, no matter the passage of time.  Even if I never see him again, I will always love him.

COSBY:  Why did you kill your parents?

MENENDEZ:  I was terrified.  I thought I was going to die.  I mean, it wasn‘t a little bit of fear.  I‘ve never been so scared in my life.  And it may sound nuts down now, even 15 years later, but I remember the horror I felt at that moment.  And I‘ll never forget the sense of dread that I was about to die. 

COSBY:  Why did you think you were about to die? 

MENENDEZ:  Because of everything my father had told me in my life.  I mean, my father, he would sit me down and describe to me what the inside of my head would look like after he finished killing me.  I remember one time I was almost 13 and my dad found me after I tried to run away.  And he slammed me up against a tree and told me the next time I even tried that he would kill me. 

And I don‘t know if it‘s possible how to describe the fear you feel when someone has molested you.  It‘s this sense of panic.  And there was a sense of dread that is almost impossible to translate to you unless you‘ve experienced it. 

COSBY:  How much do you regret killing your own parents? 

MENENDEZ:  It‘s my real prison.  People think that, you know, the prison is my punishment.  Whether I was in prison now or not in prison now, I live with it every day of my life. 

It‘s not something that you ever get over and you ever deal with, emotionally, killing two people that you love, that I loved.  I mean, these were my parents.  I loved them.  No matter what happened to me, it‘s something that‘s innate.  The child loves his parents.  And I certainly did.  And it‘s something that I would go—I‘d give anything to be able to go back in time and undo it. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And be sure to watch LIVE & DIRECT next week for my full, exclusive interview with Erik Menendez.  And also be sure to catch Dan Abrams‘ show next week, because he‘s going to have the wife of Erik Menendez, who has a new book about what it‘s like to be married to a notorious inmate.  She and her attorney will be on Dan‘s show next week, so be sure to tune into that. 

Well, now to another crime story, this one involving a grandmother and a taser.  The 68-year-old woman has filed a federal lawsuit after she was tasered by an officer.  And it was all caught on tape. 

Take a look at this surveillance video.  The Franklin, Ohio, police lieutenant tasered Beverly Kidwell—get this—not once but five times in a police station waiting room.  You can see it there on the video.  She joins me now live with her attorney, Rick Schulte. 

Beverly, you know, as we‘re seeing this surveillance video, when they put the taser and pointed it towards you, did you know what was going on? 

BEVERLY KIDWELL, TASERED FIVE TIMES:  No, I didn‘t know what was going on.  I actually thought it was a gun. 

COSBY:  When did you found out that it was a taser?  What did you realize what it really was? 

KIDWELL:  I didn‘t really realize; it happened so quickly.  And he pulled it out, and it looked like a gun.  And then the next thing I knew, I felt this excruciating pain.  And I fell to the floor.  And then he kept tasering me over and over and over again. 

COSBY:  What did you say to him or do to him?  Did you do anything to provoke him? 

KIDWELL:  No, I did nothing.  I sat in the chair and waited to speak to another officer.  And I did nothing, except sit in the chair. 

COSBY:  So you were just sitting there quietly, Beverly?  Is that what you‘re saying?  You didn‘t say anything?

KIDWELL:  Yes.

COSBY:  Didn‘t do anything to intimidate him or threaten him? 

KIDWELL:  No.  No.  I was sitting there by myself for quite a period of time waiting for another officer that I had requested to talk to.  And when I told the dispatcher I was going to leave, then this officer came through the door. 

And we shook hands.  And I told him that I‘d been sitting there a long time and that I needed to leave and come back, since I had come in voluntarily.  And he said, no, that I couldn‘t do that. 

And I said, well, my husband‘s in the car, and it‘s been quite a while.  I at least need to go out and tell him.  And he said, no, I couldn‘t do that either. 

RICK SCHULTE, KIDWELL‘S ATTORNEY:  Rita, even if she had said something to threaten this officer, he‘s six foot tall, probably about 250 pounds.  It doesn‘t matter.  Even if they have some excuse for the first taser, there‘s no explanation for the second, third, fourth and fifth time. 

She is laying on the floor, and she‘s rolling around like a dying animal, and he continues to taser her.  She‘s 67 years old at the time of the taser.

COSBY:  No, absolutely.  And you can see there on the tape.  Absolutely.  In fact, Rick, let me show a statement.  This is from the police department.  This is their statement. 

It says, “The tape that has been widely broadcast does not have an audio component and therefore provide a complete picture of the interaction between the officer and Mrs. Kidwell.  There are facts related to this incident which will be disclosed at the trial that will further explain the officer‘s conduct in this situation.”

Was there anything that was said?  And regardless of—as I agree with you, too, Rick, I mean, you know, she‘s still a 68-year-old woman.  What is she going do? 

SCHULTE:  There were no threats made to them at all.  And it seems quite convenient that there wasn‘t an audiotape.  Quite frankly, we wish there was.  They‘re grasping at straws.  There‘s nothing else that they can point to in this case.  This guy is a 15-year lieutenant.  And he is a huge man.  I mean...

COSBY:  Yes.  In fact, how big is he, Rick?  How big is he? 

And, Beverly, how big are you? 

KIDWELL:  I‘m 5‘3” and about 110 pounds. 

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  And how big is the officer, Rick? 

SCHULTE:  He looks pretty big.  I don‘t know if I—I wouldn‘t want to run into him.  His arms look about as big as my client‘s waist, so...

COSBY:  Yes, if they get in a wrestling match, my bet would be on the officer, I think, a couple of times. 

SCHULTE:  Yes.  He certainly could have put the cuffs on her.  She‘s sitting in the chair.  She doesn‘t even try to get up from the chair.  When she actually gets out of the chair, that‘s because her body is being electrified.  She‘s not in control of herself. 

He‘s actually over top of her and telling her to get up and roll over. 

And he just continues to taser her.  She can‘t move or talk or think. 

She‘s got these volts of electricity running through her body. 

COSBY:  All right, well, and I know you‘ve filed a federal lawsuit. 

So, both of you, please keep us posted.  Thank you very much. 

SCHULTE:  Thank you, Rita. 

COSBY:  And still ahead, everybody, sportscaster and TV broadcaster Lisa Guerrero tells me why she waited until the middle of her career to take it all off. 

And talk about standing by your man.  A military wife has a very unique way to keep company while her husband is serving this country.  He‘s a doll, and so is she, as you can tell.  She‘s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And those are brand-new pictures of former sportscasting beauty Lisa Guerrero, probably best known for her reporting from the field for “Monday Night Football.”  She has now scored the cover of “Playboy‘s” January issue, including an eight-page spread out now on newsstands. 

And Lisa Guerrero joins me now live.  Lisa, you know, you mentioned that “Playboy‘s” been approaching you for about two decades.  Why did you decide to do it now? 

LISA GUERRERO, FORMER SPORTSCASTER:  Right.  Hi, Rita.  First of all, I‘m 41 years old.  And 20 years ago was the original time that “Playboy” approached me about being in a centerfold.  And at 21, I was starting in the business.  And I didn‘t think it was a good career move.  And I was trying to establish myself in sports. 

And it wasn‘t until recently when I kind of developed a sense of humor about it.  And at 41 years old, and finally married for the first time a year ago, my husband and I talked about it and we thought it would be a good time to use the platform that “Playboy” provides to kind of get the message across that now I‘m not only doing sports but I‘m also acting again.  I‘ve been cast in a film.  I‘m writing a book.  I launched a Web site, LisaGuerrero.net.  And “Playboy” really provides that platform for me to get that message out. 

COSBY:  What‘s more exposure, “Monday Night Football” or “Playboy,” from your experience? 

(LAUGHTER)

GUERRERO:  Well, technically I guess I got more exposure in “Playboy,” but certainly “Monday Night Football” is a very big spotlight, as well. 

COSBY:  You know, you talked about your husband, Major League Baseball pitcher Scott Erickson.  A lot of people know, if they love sports, a great player. 

GUERRERO:  Thank you. 

COSBY:  What is his reaction to this?  How does he feel about his wife showing all? 

GUERRERO:  He was very encouraging, let me say that.  I wouldn‘t have done it unless he had encouraged me.  And...

COSBY:  Did he push you into it? 

(CROSSTALK)

GUERRERO:  He didn‘t push me into it.  But I would say this:  When he got the magazine itself and saw the pictures for the first time, he was disappointed that there was only eight pages.  He said, “There should be 12 pages.” 

And, incidentally, here is a funny story.  He couldn‘t go, because he was pitching, when we were shooting this.  We shot in Paris.  And in lieu of my husband, my brand new mother-in-law, his mother, came with me. 

COSBY:  Oh, that‘s interesting. 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  What are his teammates saying?  Because I‘ve been in a couple locker rooms covering different sporting events.  “Playboy” seems to be all over the place there. 

GUERRERO:  Yes, I think that, you know, within the sports community, people think that it‘s an honor.  And I guess “Playboy” has kind of set the standard for female sex appeal for 50 years.  And I think it says almost something broader about where we are in society when “Playboy” decides to put a 41-year-old broad on their cover.  I kind of would take that as a compliment.  And I think his friends do, as well. 

COSBY:  Well, you do absolutely look beautiful.  But are you going to be...

GUERRERO:  Thank you. 

COSBY:  ... embarrassed at all, when you run into his teammates?  You know, now there‘s no imagination left for what you look like with your clothes off.  Are you going to feel funny at a dinner party with them or at a social event?

GUERRERO:  Let me put it this way, Rita:  After having covered sports for 13 years and having been in many locker rooms myself, I have seen them in their altogether, so I guess fair is fair. 

COSBY:  This is tit-for-tat, is that it? 

GUERRERO:  I guess could you say that, right? 

(LAUGHTER)

COSBY:  What message is that sending also to other women?  And are you going to feel strange, if you do go back into sportscasting?  Do you feel that, you know, posing for “Playboy,” people are going to look at you a little different now? 

GUERRERO:  Yes, and that‘s a very fair question.  And there‘s a reason for 20 years I said no to “Playboy.”  I think, when it comes down to the credibility issue, which is probably what you‘re getting at, for me as a sports reporter, credibility would hurt me in two ways. 

Number one, it would mean that players wouldn‘t be able to sit down with me or wouldn‘t feel comfortable sitting down with me in an interview situation.  Or, number two, viewers won‘t watch me. 

And I think the target demographic for sports is certainly that 18-34-year-old male demographic.  So I don‘t think they‘re not going to watch me because I‘ve been in “Playboy,” and I think ditto for the players.  I think they‘re still going to sit down and give me the hard-to-get interviews. 

COSBY:  All right, Lisa, thank you very much.  Wish you lots of luck, and good to see you back all over the place. 

GUERRERO:  Happy holidays. 

COSBY:  You have a reality show coming out, too, right, so you‘ve got a lot new work? 

GUERRERO:  A lot.  Thank you. 

COSBY:  Lisa, thank you very much.

And, of course, there‘s a lot more coming up tonight here on MSNBC. 

Let‘s check in with Tucker Carlson for a preview of tonight‘s SITUATION. 

What‘s in store, Tucker? 

TUCKER CARLSON, MSNBC HOST:  Well, we‘re going to go tit-for-tat tonight, Rita.  I can‘t believe you said that on the air, Rita. 

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON:  I‘m very impressed, I have to say.  Good for you.  That‘s pretty amusing. 

What‘s not so amusing, however, is the European response to the execution yesterday of Tookie Williams, predictably sanctimonious, outraged.  There are calls in Austria, the native country of California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, to rename buildings, to take his name off the buildings, because what he did yesterday was considered so over-the-top.  We will take up that question in some detail. 

We‘ll talk to you, Rita Cosby, about what you saw in the death chamber yesterday at San Quentin. 

And we‘ll talk to a man who provides alibis to wayward men for a living.  Let‘s say you‘re doing something wrong.  You go to this man‘s Web site, and he can set up almost anything to make your case that you‘re not doing something wrong.  He can send you fake party invitations, provide fake phone records for you, call you in the middle of dates to get you out of a date, et cetera, et cetera.  It‘s a fascinating business.  A lot of people are into it, apparently. 

COSBY:  I could have used him on a couple of dates a couple years ago, Tucker.  Now you‘re giving me the information.  Thanks a lot. 

CARLSON:  I‘ll give you the web address, Rita.

COSBY:  Thank you.  I appreciate.  Tucker, I‘ll see you in a little bit.

CARLSON:  See you.

COSBY:  Thank you so much.  And, everybody, watch THE SITUATION at 11:00 Eastern time. 

And still ahead, everybody, your husband is called to duty to serve his country.  What do you do to keep from being lonely?  You could call the guy Tucker was talking about, but could you bring in a stand-in, a real military mannequin.  That‘s coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZY WALKER, CARRIES MANNEQUIN OF HUSBAND:  I was surfing eBay.  And I saw a sailor for sale one day.  He was used for a photo shoot in Washington.  And I was the high bidder.  It helps me pass the time while he‘s gone and knowing that I‘m making him a photo album so he really know where I‘ve been, it gives me a good feeling. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, our next guest has a unique relationship.  Her husband never talks back and she calls all the shots.  It sounds pretty good to me.  And she says he‘s quite a doll. 

This Navy wife wasn‘t quite sure how she‘d pass the time while her real husband is serving overseas.  So here is her stand-in companion, a look-alike mannequin.  She even put the mustache on him. 

Joining me now with more is not-so-lonely wife Suzy Walker and the mannequin.  You nicknamed him B.D., right, like Boy David? 

WALKER:  Yes, I did. 

COSBY:  Where did you get the nickname from?  How did you come up with that nickname, Suzy? 

WALKER:  I reversed my husband.  His initials are D.B., so I just reversed his initials. 

COSBY:  Now, why did you do this?  Why did you come up with this idea of the mannequin? 

WALKER:  Because my husband was—we‘re recently married.  And he felt bad that he was leaving me behind.  And he was wondering what I was going to do while he was gone.  So I was just on eBay.  And my mind started to go when I saw the sailor. 

COSBY:  Now, you were saying earlier, we saw that you got the highest bid.  How much did you have to pay for him?  And why did you think to even look on eBay and look for this? 

WALKER:  I‘m making a Navy room.  My husband‘s been in the Navy for 23 years.  So, once in awhile, I surf eBay for Navy things and memorabilia, and the sailor just happened to pop up.  So I thought, “What a great idea.” 

COSBY:  And how much was he?  How much was the sailor when you bought him? 

WALKER:  He was $200. 

COSBY:  Now, where does he sleep?  We saw some pictures.  I see you‘re holding hands with him.  Looks like a very romantic moment here. 

You know, where does he stay?  I saw some pictures of him sleeping in the bed with you.  Do you bring him with you, spend time with him everywhere? 

WALKER:  No.  I do spend a lot of time with him, just like it is my husband, because it reminds me of him, but he sleeps on the couch.  I live alone, so I want people to think that I‘m here.  But I only slept with him one night. 

COSBY:  What‘s the funniest thing that‘s happened to him?  Because we see that you‘ve taken him out shopping.  Someone said that you also took him out to the movies, is that right? 

WALKER:  We frequently go to the movies.  I think the biggest is I took him to do my Christmas shopping.  So I took him to all the stores that I wanted to go to. 

COSBY:  And what‘s the reaction from other people, like people at the stores?  What do they say to you?  And do they stare at you? 

WALKER:  They do.  They come up—most of the people come up and ask me.  The elderly and the vets, they just want to talk and talk and talk.  They absolutely love the idea. 

COSBY:  Do you think that this is a healthy way to celebrate your husband‘s, you know, departure, his void at this point? 

WALKER:  I do for myself.  And I think, once my husband sees the album that I‘m making him, he‘s going to feel so good to know that I cared enough to show him what I‘ve been doing, because we‘re keeping a journal for each other while he‘s gone. 

COSBY:  And what does your husband think about the whole thing?  Have you sent him—and, in fact, we‘re looking at—here‘s a picture of your husband on one side and the mannequin on the other.  There is a lot of similarities.  Let‘s go back, if we could, to show that picture again. 

What does your husband think about it? 

WALKER:  I haven‘t really discussed it with him.  It was in the newspaper.  And the crew sent it to him.  So he found out through the other sailors on base. 

COSBY:  All right.  Well, Suzy Walker, we thank you very much.  And thank B.D., also, if you could for being with us there by your side.  Thank you very much. 

WALKER:  I thank you, also.  Thank you very much. 

COSBY:  Thank you.

Well, this may not be, of course, the most conventional way of coping with missing a loved one, but is it at least a suitable way to deal with the separation from someone that you love so much, as we‘re looking at a picture of Suzy and B.D. there. 

Joining me now is psychologist Bethany Marshall.  Bethany, what‘s your reaction to Suzy and B.D.? 

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST:  Well, here‘s my reaction:  I think that the loss of her husband going overseas felt catastrophic for her and that she confused temporary separation with a permanent loss.  And I would imagine, if you look back over her life, that perhaps there was another loss or series of losses that was traumatic for her. 

So what she did was she found a love substitute, OK?  And she has found a love substitute that‘s in her husband‘s likeness, and she invests all of her love energy in the love substitute. 

And the interesting thing about this love substitute is that it won‘t hurt her as she has felt hurt by her husband with him going, you know, overseas.  It‘s interesting because, in my mind, this is very regressed child-like behavior with very small kids when they go off to school for the first time.  They can‘t handle being separate from their mommies.  So usually the parents sends a memento, a picture in the likeness of the parents, right? 

COSBY:  So, Bethany, are you suggesting that she ditch the mannequin, that she ditch B.D.? 

MARSHALL:  She may not be able to.  I mean, if this is her coping mechanism, it may be useful.  What concerns me is that I saw her on another show earlier today where her husband came in over a phone line and she seemed quite confused and unsure how to relate to him, that she was more related to and interested in the mannequin than her husband.  And this is what I see in clinical practice when people find love substitutes...

COSBY:  Oh, that‘s interesting.  Do you think, Bethany, that she‘s going to have a problem when her husband actually gets back? 

MARSHALL:  Yes, I do.  I think what‘s going to happen is she‘s going to have a period where she has a very difficult time attaching to him.  She‘s going to have stranger anxiety, like little kids have. 

And eventually, she‘ll warm back up to him and then she‘ll reattach, but she needs to work on issues of separation and loss because, you know, one of the tasks of adulthood is that we learn to be separate from the ones we love and hold onto the idea of being loved, even when separated from loved ones. 

COSBY:  So, Bethany, what do you suggest for her now? 

MARSHALL:  Well, I think she‘s doing a really good thing in that her neighbor goes with her and they take the mannequin shopping.  It would be nice if she ditched the love substitute at some point and then attach to neighbors and family and friends. 

The reason I think she needs the love substitute is she feels, as I said earlier, traumatized by what she perceives to be a catastrophic loss with her husband going overseas, so human relationships feel scary and frightening.  Why a mannequin...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  You know, Bethany, what do you suggest to folks, you know, who are going through, on a serious note, too, because, you know, there are so many—you know, I just came back from Afghanistan. 

MARSHALL:  Yes. 

COSBY:  And you see so many of these young men and women away from their loved ones, especially as we go into the holiday season.  What do you say?  What advice do you give to folks who are going through some of that separation anxiety? 

MARSHALL:  I think that they have to remember that they‘re loved even when outside the presence of the one who loves them.  They have to hold onto the idea of being loved. 

And they need to pick substitutes that point towards the real relationship.  Put a picture on the refrigerator of your husband, OK?  Maybe wear a favorite t-shirt of his to bed.  Spend time with his family. 

Do something that‘s more oriented to the real relationship. 

COSBY:  All right.  Bethany, we got to go right now.  Thank you very much.  There‘s some good pointers. 

MARSHALL:  Yes, you‘re welcome.

COSBY:  We appreciate it.

Everybody, stick with us.  A lot more ahead coming up after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And, if you have a computer in your house, listen up.  There‘s a good chance someone is using it to watch porn on the Internet.  Don‘t believe me?  Well, tune in tomorrow night, because we‘re going to show you not just porn on the Internet, but where some of that porn comes from.  We‘re going to take you to part of Hollywood that few people ever knew existed.  It is an eye-opening LIVE & DIRECT expose, “Porn Valley: Behind the Scenes.”  And that is tomorrow night, right here on LIVE & DIRECT.

And that‘s LIVE & DIRECT for tonight.  We‘re here live in San Francisco.  Everybody, I‘m Rita Cosby.  Stay with us, because special reports next.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Copy: Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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