updated 12/14/2005 3:00:29 PM ET 2005-12-14T20:00:29

Guests: George Taplin, Bill Talen, Max Kellerman

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  Welcome to THE SITUATION.  I‘m Tucker Carlson. 

Thanks for tuning in tonight.  We appreciate it. 

We‘ll have much more on the execution of Tookie Williams in just a minute.  We‘ll also debate the politics of Iraq on the eve of that country‘s historic parliamentary elections.  President Bush says we‘re winning that war.  Top Democrats say we‘ve already lost it.  Who‘s winning the hearts and minds of American voters?

Plus, yet another shocking desecration of Christmas.  This time in New York, where a man has hung a bloody pornographic Santa Claus in front of his $3 million brownstone.  We‘ll tell you why someone ought to call the cops on that guy. 

And front lines of immigration wars.  We‘ll talk to a group that‘s doing what government won‘t do: going after businesses that hire illegal aliens. 

But we begin our show with this morning‘s execution of quadruple murderer and former gang leader, Tookie Williams.  As thousands protested outside of San Quentin Prison in California, technicians inside fumbled for over 10 minutes trying to insert an intravenous line to release the poison that would stop his heart, and ultimately did. 

At one point, Williams reportedly raised his head and asked his executioners if they needed help finding a vein.  Witnessing all of this was our own Rita Cosby.  She joins us now from San Francisco to tell us about it.

Rita, thanks a lot for coming on. 

RITA COSBY, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  You‘re welcome, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Set the scene for us.  Was Tookie—you could see Tookie Williams, of course.  Could he see you?

COSBY:  Yes, he definitely could see us.  In fact, from the position that I was standing in—I was one of 17 media witnesses, and told there were 50 witnesses inside the death chamber.  A lot of family members, also some prison officials, and also supporters of Tookie Williams.  He was able to bring in five witnesses of his own.

But the vantage point that I had, Tucker, I actually had a clear view of Tookie Williams.  For the first eight minutes, he looked over at his supporters.  As I pointed out, he had these five witnesses, this one woman in particular, who‘s been very supportive of him, helping him write his children‘s books for the last 10 years or so.  He was looking at her, speaking to her. 

And then he dramatically sort of turned his head and looked in our direction, gazed I would say, for maybe 15, 20 minutes, sort of staring straight on at us, looked back at them and back at us a few other times before he ultimately died. 

CARLSON:  A lot of people—most people I think have been in journalism for awhile, me included, have seen someone die.  And that‘s a pretty wrenching experience, but it seems to me different than watching a death take place on schedule, where the condemned man and everyone watching knows he‘s about to die. 

What was your reaction to this?  Was it as wrenching as it sounds?

COSBY:  You know, it was wrenching, and it was also surreal in many ways.  You know, part of the time I could feel that I was sort of getting a shortness of breath.  I felt a little light headed, which is a lot of what the other witnesses told me that they felt afterwards. 

It‘s a very intense moment, being in there, and very powerful moment, knowing that they‘re injecting, first the intravenous, as you pointed out, when they were having problems.  First they got it in the right side.  It took a little bit of work.  And I had a clear view of that.  Then they were trying to get it into the left side to put the intravenous on the left side.  They put it on both sides, the catheters to inject the poison. 

And they were having trouble finding the vein on the left side.  You could tell they were fumbling, over and over again.  And it was only—it was 10 minutes.  It probably took them about 20 minutes until they actually started injecting the lethal fluids. 

And those 20 minutes, I would say, felt like hours, Tucker, sitting in there, because you could have heard a pin drop.  It was so quiet, so solemn, and also quite surreal, because it‘s a very sterile environment.  He‘s in this sort of glass circular encased atmosphere.  And surrounded by witnesses. 

And all the while, while they‘re fumbling trying to find a vein, Tookie Williams is sort of shaking his head, exasperated, trying to even help them to try to find a vein. 

And all the while, you see the victims‘ families just watching, having to just wait and sort of be in this painful moment for them, grueling, as you could see, waiting for ultimate justice in their mind to take place. 

You could also see on the other side his supporters shouting—I could see them mouthing words to him, “I love you, Tookie.  God bless you, Tookie.”  He was sort of shouting back to them.  There was that kind of communication taking place. 

And then in between all that, he‘s sort of looking over at the media witnesses, myself and several others, sort of staring at us, and trying to get a sense of the room.  It was a very intense moment, something that I will never forget, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Oh, Rita Cosby in San Francisco, thank you. 

COSBY:  You‘re welcome, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Thanks, Rita. 

Well, the death of Tookie Williams raised many questions about his life as a gang leader and his alleged redemption while in prison.  But what about the man who denied his clemency yesterday?

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been the subject of outrage in Western Europe over his decision, when the American justice system, for that matter, America itself is seen as barbaric. 

Both the Vatican and Amnesty International have condemned the governor‘s actions.  Members of the Green Party in Austria, Schwarzenegger‘s homeland, are calling for the governor to be stripped of his Austrian citizenship because of his refusal to grant Tookie Williams clemency. 

Here now to discuss these international developments as well as the politics of the war in Iraq, MSNBC contributor Flavia Colgan.

Flavia, thanks for coming on. 

FLAVIA COLGAN, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR:  Thank you for having me, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  This is the moment at which we all just ought to be honest.  Western Europe hates us.  They hate us for reasons that have almost nothing to do with our behavior, and we should cease to care what they think about us.  This is actually an outrageous response. 

No matter how you feel about the death penalty, Tookie Williams was not a hero, by any formulation.  He was a bad man.  And yet he is being treated as a hero in Europe because he is seen as anti-American figure.  Anti-Americanism is the creed of western Europe.  And we ought to just be honest about it and direct about it. 

COLGAN:  Well, Tucker, I have to be honest with you and say I don‘t even think we should be wasting time on this program.  I‘m not particularly interested what the Green Party in Austria thinks about this country.  In fact, I‘m not...

CARLSON:  The Democratic Party is awfully interested.  That‘s why it‘s significant. 

COLGAN:  The only thing I‘m interested in terms of the world is I do think, as the best country in the world, we should be a leader both on—both on the environment.  We should be a leader on human rights.  I mean, we shouldn‘t be torturing people.

And I do believe that we shouldn‘t—I agree with, even though I‘m a practicing Catholic, I don‘t take my marching orders from the Vatican, but I, you know, think—agree with them that capital punishment is against human dignity and redemption.  I don‘t want to waste any more time. 

(CROSS TALK)

CARLSON:  Slow down.  We‘re not wasting time because Europe‘s opinion of the U.S. is invoked again and again by the American left, by mainstream Democrats, and the far out wacko left, as justification for their positions. 

You see Supreme Court justices point to the European judicial systems.  You see Democratic presidential candidates, John Kerry and Al Gore, point to the view of America in Europe as justification for their positions.  American liberals care what Europe thinks.  And my point is, the first American liberal who gets up and says, you know, the French can go stuff themselves, that candidate is going to win.  And until the Democrats say that, they‘re going to lose.

COLGAN:  I‘m not a candidate, Tucker, but I‘m saying this on that program, and if you want to have people on here talking about what Europe thinks, you can have them.  Let me tell you what I think. 

I want to talk about two things.  One is a personal experience.  When I served as chief of staff for the lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania, I had the privilege and oftentimes a very tough job of being involved with the board of pardons.  That meant at times looking into the eyes in the cell of someone who was being condemned to death or a life sentence. 

And there were many times, Tucker, I might add, I was snowed or I was charmed by someone.  I thought they were a hero.  I thought they were great.  When I looked back on the records, it looked, you know, very clear to me that they were guilty. 

However, this is the point.  I don‘t know.  And are we in a position, as mere mortals, as human beings, to decide, No. 1, whether someone is guilty or innocent and know that, for 100 percent, but more importantly... 

CARLSON:  Yes, we are. 

COLGAN:  No, I disagree with that.

CARLSON:  What‘s the point of having a government if you can‘t make judgments about human behavior?

COLGAN:  First of all, Tucker, there have been people that have been put to death that have been innocent.  But more importantly than that, I am not willing to admit on this program tonight that I believe in a nihilistic society where we have no idea or no feeling that there is any hope, that we don‘t believe in forgiveness, that we don‘t believe in redemption. 

CARLSON:  Wait a second.

COLGAN:  A cursory reading of the New Testament teaches that.  And I think that those are values that America should hold. 

CARLSON:  Flavia, I‘m drowning in the tsunami of your verbiage.  Hold on.  You‘re killing me. 

Look, the point is, we can make judgments.  Our judgments are not always right, of course, but your contention that we can never know what‘s right and what‘s wrong, if you really accept that, if you really believe that, then this whole enterprise of civilization kind of pointless, isn‘t it?

COLGAN:  Tucker, come on, you‘re brighter than that.  What I‘m saying is human life is very serious.  And when you‘re talking about the taking of a human life, let the person rot in prison, OK?  I‘m not saying someone is innocent.  I‘m not saying someone who kills four people is a good person.  I can‘t look into their soul. 

CARLSON:  Right. 

COLGAN:  I don‘t know if they‘ve been redeemed.  Look, there is a place for someone to be killed, by the way.  If somewhere were—if I were in a dark alley, and I saw someone raping my daughter, heaven forbid, God bless my soul, I would kill the person with my bare hands. 

CARLSON:  So what you‘re saying is...

COLGAN:  In civilized society, we should not be condemn—or condoning the barbaric act, and...

CARLSON:  So we should be—OK.  We should be condoning rather vigilante justice.  And actually...

COLGAN:  No. 

CARLSON:  ... I‘m not even criticizing you.  Slow down.  Slow down.

(CROSS TALK)

CARLSON:  Flavia, Flavia.  I‘m actually agreeing with you.  I think you make a very smart point.  I think it‘s wrong when the government does it, not so wrong when individuals do it. 

I want to—I want to point you to something that the president of the United States said yesterday, in an interview with NBC‘s Brian Williams.  Interesting, interesting point about Iraq.  Here‘s the president. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I fully understand people not liking war, and I can see that, and on the other hand, I know we‘re making progress.  We‘re winning.  And it‘s my job to continue to try to reassure them we are winning and the stakes are worth it. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Here‘s a pretty simple question.  The president makes the case, and he has in three speeches in the last couple of weeks, that we‘re winning the war in Iraq.  Now you may think that‘s totally false. 

COLGAN:  Winning what?

CARLSON:  There is some evidence it is false, but that is his case, politically.  I‘m interested in what the Democrats‘ case is.  Is there any movement within the Democratic Party that is making the case that we could win the war in Iraq, or is it, as Republicans claim, a party that has accepted defeat in Iraq?

COLGAN:  Yes, as you can see by my backdrop here, I am sitting in the cradle of our democracy, I might add.  Bush erroneously compared the Iraq war to the Revolutionary War, which was about as absurd as his comparing 9/11 to Pearl Harbor, but we don‘t need to get into that. 

Yesterday, I had the privilege of seeing—or not the privilege of seeing Bush‘s speech, which I thought was a little bit more of the same, and also had the privilege of dining with Congressman Murtha and listening to his press conference. 

Let me tell you something.  There are a lot of Democrats for whom I am not proud right now, their stance of the war, Hillary Clinton amongst them.  Jack Murtha is right.  For those who want to see a plan for Iraq, and his viewpoints have been very misconstrued, and you know, have not been shown in their nuance. 

CARLSON:  I know he‘s a great guy, but give me the bottom line on it.  Does Jack Murtha, whose patriotism I would never question, who‘s a great guy, and I think—is great, I‘ll grant you that.  Does he think, when we leave Iraq, as he thinks we ought to really soon, that we‘re going to leave the victor?  Ultimately, we need to make pretty coarse historical judgments like that, do we win, do we lose?  What‘s the bottom line?

COLGAN:  Congressman—first of all, Tucker, let‘s not—let‘s not be pedestrian and sophomoric about this.  It‘s not that simple. 

But Jack Murtha, Jack Murtha believes, and he said yesterday, that—he does not believe we can have a military victory. 

CARLSON:  OK.

COLGAN:  But he does believe we can potentially—that democracy can flourish.  He doesn‘t believe that there‘s no potential like some naysayers, that democracy cannot flourish...

CARLSON:  Right.

COLGAN:  ... which I think is condescending, by the way—in the Middle East.  He doesn‘t call George Bush a liar.  He takes responsibility for his own vote, as he did yesterday, and said it was a mistake. 

He is not asking for a cut and run.  He‘s asking for strategic redeployment to be brought out to the periphery, that when only seven percent, which is what they are, of foreign fighters, and two percent of al Qaeda maybe cause trouble in Iraq, we can then bring back Special Forces into the region to help rot that stuff out. 

He believes that, like Iraqis, over 70 percent of them don‘t want us there.  That the more time they spend—and this was written in... 

(CROSS TALK)

CARLSON:  Hold on. 

COLGAN:  Tucker, how do you know?  Let me make one point. 

CARLSON:  I want you to boil down your answer to my question. 

COLGAN:  OK.

CARLSON:  Does Congressman Murtha believe that, if we withdraw in this orderly, sensible way he‘s calling for—I‘ll grant you all of that—that we can say this war was not a humiliating defeat? 

COLGAN:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  That‘s the bottom line question.  It‘s not sophomoric and it‘s not simplistic.  It‘s real and it‘s important. 

COLGAN:  No, that‘s a good question.  I can‘t speak for him.  I would say that he would not think it‘s a full victory.  I know that he regrets his vote, because he felt he was in Kuwait four days before the war broke out.  They put a red line around, saying the biological weapons were going to be used against us.  And the day we went into Baghdad and we weren‘t, he said, “I knew I made a mistake.” 

I think he feels that we can come out of this on top, that we can be -

you know, we can be a help in the region, but that there weren‘t WMDs, that given what we know now, it probably—that it was not—that it was a war of choice.  But I think he feels that we can rectify the situation. 

CARLSON:  OK. 

COLGAN:  Saying we have to stay the course. 

CARLSON:  That is it. 

COLGAN:  Do everything the same, and no heads should roll is as laughable as Democrats just pointing fingers and calling people liars. 

CARLSON:  I don‘t think anyone is suggesting that. 

COLGAN:  Both sides are absurd.  We got to sit down and be serious, like you are.

CARLSON:  OK.

COLGAN:  I‘m serious.

CARLSON:  We have to go somewhere from here. 

COLGAN:  Exactly. 

CARLSON:  And it hurts America if this is seen as a debacle, say, 20 years from now.  It‘s not good for our country in any way.  And I can‘t imagine anyone‘s rooting for that.  And I‘m merely hoping that all sides can sort of pitch in to look for a hopeful solution to what is a pretty depressing situation. 

COLGAN:  Tucker, you‘re a very reasonable man. 

CARLSON:  Not so reasonable as you think.

COLGAN:  I hope you can talk some sense into your colleagues. 

CARLSON:  Flavia Colgan, thanks a lot for coming on. 

COLGAN:  Thank you for having me. 

CARLSON:  Still to come, now that Tookie Williams has been permanently removed from Death Row, should history see him as a martyr or thug?

Plus, is there any way to stop illegal immigrants from being hired by American contractors?  That‘s a problem.  Businesses hire illegal aliens.  No one wants to talk about it.  We‘ll tell you now about a group of Minutemen and how they‘re cracking down on the epidemic from the parking lot of a local 7-Eleven.  Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Still to come, a bloodstained pornographic Santa is hanging tonight in front of a multimillion dollar New York City apartment.  What should be done to the moron who displayed it?  We‘ll tell you.

Plus, why you should stay away from Wal-Mart and Starbucks this Christmas.  You‘ll hear that from the Reverend Billy.  Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back to THE SITUATION. 

An estimated 11 million illegal aliens work in this country.  Many of them take advantage of taxpayer funded programs, and by and large, the government does not a thing about it. 

Now one man in Virginia has taken matters into his own hands.  George Taplin, the founder of the Herndon Minutemen in Herndon, Virginia, has turned over the names and addresses of at least 16 unlicensed contractors who regularly hire illegal immigrants and illegal aliens. 

He joins us tonight live from Washington, D.C. 

George Taplin, thanks a lot for coming on. 

GEORGE TAPLIN, FOUNDER, HERNDON MINUTEMEN:  Well, thank you for inviting me. 

CARLSON:  So, give us a brief description of what you do.  You go out and you find people who are hiring illegals.  How do you know that they‘re hiring illegals?

TAPLIN:  Well, we really don‘t have to determine whether or not the people that they‘re hiring are illegal, because they themselves are running an illegal operation. 

What we do is go out inside the—the hiring camp, or the day labor site, as they call it, and we take pictures of how they pick up the day laborers.  And we follow them sometimes to their work site to make sure they are, in fact, going to work. 

But then we track them down to where their offices are.  In most cases, they‘re just homes, and we try to determine whether they have business licenses, whether they have contractor licenses, and so forth.  And in every case so far, we have found out that they do not. 

And then we turn this information over to the authorities so that they can investigate properly, and bring criminal charges in most cases, and other charges, like the towns have zoning violations, and so forth. 

CARLSON:  So it sounds like you go to a place where everybody in your town, and I think most towns, certainly most affluent towns, have a place like this, that everybody in your town knows that illegal aliens are being hired on a day labor basis, and you go out and point obvious to the authorities.  So the question is, why aren‘t the authorities doing this?

TAPLIN:  That‘s a very good question.  If you go to East Hampton, Long Island, you‘ll find that the police department is actually doing what we‘re doing, and I think they modeled their efforts upon what we were doing here in Herndon.  And it‘s been very successful.  Their day labor site has effectively disappeared.  They‘ve gone elsewhere, which is what we‘re trying to do, is get them to move elsewhere. 

CARLSON:  Now you estimate illegal aliens cost your town‘s taxpayers more than $2 million, say $2.3 million a year.  Tally that up for us.  How did you arrive at that, and how do they cost taxpayers money?

TAPLIN:  Well, what we did is we looked at the report that the governor of Minnesota got last week from his own staff, and in that report, they estimated that there‘s 80 million illegal immigrants or illegal aliens in Minnesota, and it‘s costing Minnesota $180 million, which breaks down to about $2,250 per illegal. 

If you use that figure and you translate it to the number of illegal aliens in the northern Virginia area, which is in the neighborhood of 230,000, it‘s over 500 million in northern Virginia alone, and Herndon‘s share of that, basing on estimate, just simply 1,000 illegal aliens in Herndon is just something under $2.5 million. 

CARLSON:  You just extrapolated.  Now seems to me the short answer for the reason why nobody does anything about illegal immigration at this level, is almost everybody is implicated in it. 

TAPLIN:  That‘s correct. 

CARLSON:  I mean, people huff and puff about immigration, but everybody wants a cheap nanny or a house keeper or someone to rake the leaves and shovel the snow.  And a lot of those people are illegal.  It‘s middle class people who cause this problem, essentially. 

TAPLIN:  They cause their own problem, and they‘re afraid of being complicit in it.  And they‘ve also become used to the underground economy, and they‘re used to paying lower than normal for the services that they‘re getting.  And if you take those services away or you take the low prices away they can no longer afford their nannies or their housekeepers and so forth.

CARLSON:  Has anybody threatened you?

TAPLIN:  Nobody. 

CARLSON:  OK.  Well, I think you‘re doing the lord‘s work.  Hopefully, you‘ll remind government of its duty to keep immigration under control. 

George Taplin from Herndon, Virginia.  Thanks a lot. 

TAPLIN:  Thank you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Coming up, is Christmas shopping a sin?  The Reverend Billy Talen is on a crusade to end gift giving over the holidays.  You‘ll meet him when THE SITUATION returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

If you‘ve had it with Christmas shopping, the crowded malls, maxed out credit cards, and the gifts no one appreciates, this segment is for you.  The Reverend Billy Talen and the Stop Shopping Gospel Choir are on crusade to get Americans to stop consuming so much this holiday season.  He‘s launched a 4,000-mile coast to coast tour to spread his message. 

Reverend Billy, as he likes to be called, joins us live tonight from Kansas City, Missouri. 

Reverend Billy, thanks for coming on.

REV. BILLY TALEN, STOP SHOPPING GOSPEL CHOIR:  Thanks for inviting us. 

CARLSON:  I have totally mixed feelings about your message.  I mean, on the one hand, of course, you know, I don‘t like big box stores, I don‘t like consumerism.  On the other hand, you know, little kids love presents.  Right?  So presents are good, actually.  How can you argue against...

TALEN:  I doubt you support the shopocalypse.  And we‘re on a mission to save Christmas from the shopocalypse. 

CARLSON:  What‘s the shopocalypse?

TALEN:  The shopocalypse is when you think you can find happiness in a box.  It‘s when you get up at 4 in the morning, and you‘re trampled in a big box trying to grab an Amazing Amanda or new 360 Xbox.  It‘s when a lot of us are wandering around wishing we smelled like J-Lo.  It‘s a disease. 

We‘re suffering from shopilepsy.  We want to grab.  Give me, give me, give me two, give me three.  Amen.  That‘s the shopocalypse. 

CARLSON:  So why would you be—I mean, why would you be against that?  I mean, I understand why you‘re against it, and I understand why it‘s nauseating and unattractive and vulgar and all that. 

TALEN:  You‘re against what I just described. 

CARLSON:  I am.  Who isn‘t?  Everyone is, right?

TALEN:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  Everyone at least claims to be.  But why would you devote your life, as you apparently are, to fighting consumerism?

TALEN:  Well, it is about life, and the Stop Shopping Gospel Choir, there are 35 of us in two buses crossing the country.  And the kind of reception we‘re getting as we go across the country, the kinds of crowds that meet us, the parades down main streets supporting independent shops, I think people around us are acting as if, yes, they‘re reclaiming their lives, too. 

Just this morning, we were in Trayer, Iowa, talking to Mike Rumin (ph), from Rumin‘s Clothiers (ph); 126-year history, four generations, and Mike talked to us poignantly about what it‘s like to have a Wal-Mart 20 miles to the east and another one 20 miles to the west.  His whole town, the whole tax base, the activity there, the children and public space on the sidewalks and the parks, it‘s all gradually reduced over time. 

CARLSON:  Yes, there‘s no doubt, if you‘re a small business owner, you‘re screwed by Wal-Mart.  There‘s no question about it.  Wal-Mart admits that. 

But if you are a low income person, who‘s getting by on $13,000 a year, you‘re psyched to have Wal-Mart.  You get to buy a lot more for the same amount of money.  It‘s good for you.  As much as I detest it, you obviously detest it.  But can‘t you concede poor people benefit from Wal-Mart?

TALEN:  More and more people, poor and middle class, are starting to understand that the amount of money that is on the sticker in a Wal-Mart is not the real cost. 

You know, the local government is bringing in sewage and water and reconfiguring the highways and giving them tax abatements, and they‘re controlling the zoning and all sorts of things are going on that impact the local schools.  I think people are starting to understand. 

I challenge—challenge the people in this TV congregation, go into a Wal-Mart and try to find a gift for a loved one there that is made in America. 

CARLSON:  Yes, good luck.  I agree...

TALEN:  And if you can‘t, then leave the Wal-Mart, and go to a local independent shop and support your own neighborhood, your own community, which might be a little bit higher on the sticker price, but you‘re supporting a living wage, among your neighbors, among your community. 

CARLSON:  Two things, I live in a town where there are no chain stores.  I shop locally exclusively. 

TALEN:  You really do?

CARLSON:  I promise you I do. 

TALEN:  Where is that?

CARLSON:  I honestly do. 

TALEN:  Can I ask where that is?

CARLSON:  No, I don‘t want to say it on television, but I really do. 

TALEN:  Congratulations. 

CARLSON:  First thing, it‘s a lot more expensive.  It‘s not a little bit more expensive.  It‘s a lot more expensive.  And second, half the stuff is made in China anyway. 

But tell me this, what do you get, speaking of gift giving, what do you get for your loved ones on Christmas?

TALEN:  This year, we‘ve made the deal, which may sound unusual, we‘ve made the deal that we will walk to get our gift.  So our loved ones are making this agreement that we will not get into a car and drive to get the gift.  And that‘s the easy way to cut out the big boxes, which are, you know, just full of products made in China that do not support local economy. 

CARLSON:  Yes, but I understand on the macro level. 

TALEN:  Suddenly—suddenly you‘re in a position where you must be creative, where you must find that independent shop, where you must go and find a proprietor run shop. 

CARLSON:  Right.

TALEN:  You walk to it.  You have a relationship with the person behind the counter.  They have a relationship with the stuff on—in the display case.  They might have a memory.  They‘re not alienated from the products.  They‘re not making $7, $8, $9 an hour with no health plan.  They‘re not bitter.  They‘re enjoying what they‘re doing.  And you, subsequently, enjoy it, too, and it becomes a gift for you to get the gift.  Amen?

I think we can change.  Somebody give me a changealluia out there. 

Brother Tucker, changealluia.  We can do this.  Amen.

CARLSON:  I‘m telling you, Reverend Bill, you‘re halfway selling me. 

But I‘m not ready for the altar call, I have to say. 

TALEN:  That‘s a lot.  That‘s a lot. 

CARLSON:  Not ready to be up—come up and be anointed with your oil.  But I appreciate your preaching to us anyway.  The Reverend Billy, thanks a lot. 

TALEN:  Thank you for having us.  Take care. 

CARLSON:  Thanks. 

Up next, you thought our last guest wasn‘t in the Christmas spirit.  Take a look at what one couple in New York City is displaying tonight outside their brownstone.  ‘Tis the season to be creepy.  Next on THE SITUATION.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Winston Churchill once said, “A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” 

Joining me now from halfway across the country, a man who does not lie, from ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing, the great Max Kellerman—Max. 

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO/HBO BOXING:  You know, you quote one of the greats of the 20th Century there, Tucker.  What a way to start off. 

CARLSON:  We‘ve also quoted Ozzy Osbourne in this segment, so you know, it all balances out in the end.  All right.

KELLERMAN:  Beats Calvin Coolidge, probably.  Right?

CARLSON:  I liked the Calvin Coolidge quote.  There weren‘t many Calvin Coolidge quotes.  Was not being quoted.

KELLERMAN:  No.  Silent Cal. 

CARLSON:  First up, a story that gives a who new meaning to the term “sleigh ride.” 

Here from the front page of the “New York Post,” a Christmas display guaranteed to drive the visions of sugar plums out of any kid‘s head and replace them with nightmares. 

In the front yard of one New York City brownstone, a blood-stained Santa holds a knife in one hand and the severed head of a doll in the other.  The homeowners, Joel Krupnik and his wife, Mildred Castellanos, say they are protesting the commercialization of the season. 

Those ought to be the final words, Max, before they are handcuffed, thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, and brought to Riker‘s Island to think through the desecration of the Christmas season they‘ve committed. 

What they have done is essentially put pornography in their front yard.  Now I don‘t contest people‘s rights to look at porn.  I‘m not even sure it‘s bad.  But you don‘t have a right to put it on your front stoop, where children can see it.  This is an intentionally provocative act that should not stand. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, actually, I think this is a perfect example of how important the First Amendment is.  And it‘s a clear First Amendment issue.  Because when we discussed this with a similar case, in shows past, or at least in a show.  If it was Halloween, you could show all kinds of gory kind of stuff.  So it‘s really just the context.  Right?  You‘re showing it on Christmas... 

CARLSON:  Right. 

KELLERMAN:  ... and therefore, the context doesn‘t feel right.  But you know what?  That‘s why there‘s a First Amendment. 

CARLSON:  No because actually, context is everything.  As I said, watching porn in your bedroom, fine in that context.  Broadcasting it onto the street, not fine. 

KELLERMAN:  Why is it pornographic?

CARLSON:  It‘s pornographic, because it is offensive to the community‘s sensibilities.  And that‘s the definition of porn. 

KELLERMAN:   However, the reason there‘s a first—look, these people, they get their sensibilities offended every day by the community, apparently, right?  I mean, that‘s America.  And they have to put up with it every day, so you know what, now people in their front yard, private property, other people have to be offended. 

CARLSON:  It‘s something other people are forced to see, but look, here‘s what is offensive about this.  These are people who, A, don‘t even celebrate Christmas, giving the rest of America a lecture on what Christmas ought to be. 

As Mr. Krupnik said, Christmas has religious origins, it‘s in the Bible.  Santa is not in the Bible.  He is a religious symbol.  Santa has become a piece of Americana. 

In other words, somehow Mr. Krupnik thinks he has deeper insights into Christmas that people who actually celebrate it.  And he‘s going to foist them on the kids in his neighborhood, who he‘s terrifying with this horrifying Santa.  Outrageous. 

KELLERMAN:  Perhaps deeper insight than 9-year-old Jimmy, who said, quote, “Christmas is not supposed to be gory,” or 9-year-old Ryan, who said, quote, “Santa makes toys and lives in the North Pole,” or 5-year-old Sean, who said, “Santa‘s face and hair are red.  They shouldn‘t look like that.” 

I mean, yes, you know what?  Kids, guess what, there‘s no such thing as Santa Claus?  I mean, you know, and these kids are going to learn that eventually, so...

CARLSON:  I want all children watching this show right now, I want all kids watching the show to know, that unfortunately, Mr. Kellerman does not always tell the truth, and just lied right there when he said there‘s no Santa.  All right?

KELLERMAN:  You know who lied?  You know who lied?  Whoever printed in this article that the brownstone on East 18th Street was $3 million.  Maybe in 1972. 

CARLSON:  Very good. 

Talk about your aggravated assault for story No. 2, Appeals court has held up the aggravated assault conviction of a 610-pound Idaho man who blamed his victim‘s injuries on his own weight. 

Patrick Macy (ph) has gotten into a bar fight and said he didn‘t know at first that the much smaller man who he was fighting was hurt.  The victim lost his four front teeth and testified he can now no longer eat corn on the cob, popcorn, or candy.  He‘s also lost his ability to whistle.  Very sad. 

Here‘s what that strip does not explain about the story.  And that is that apparently, the smaller man initiated the fight by making fun of the fat man‘s fatness. 

“Hey, Tubby,” he said, at which Tubby got him right in the face with a beer bottle, to which I say, kind of serves you right. 

KELLERMAN:  Definitely. 

CARLSON:  You know what I mean?  Attacking fat people for being fat is accepted in our society; it shouldn‘t be.  And I‘m on the fat guy‘s side here. 

KELLERMAN:  You know what?  It kind of does serve the small guy right.  He could weigh 500 pounds.  Still small relative to the 610 pounder.  But, yes, you are right.  Kind of does serve him right.  Just desserts. 

However, a guy who is 610 pounds what‘s the real issue there?  Unless there‘s a pituitary problem, which at 610 pounds there might be.  But the real issue there is self-control.  Right?  It‘s an elbow problem.  He can‘t push off the dinner table. 

And once again, shows a problem with self-control.  Just because someone insults you doesn‘t give you the right under the law to punch him in the face with a beer bottle. 

CARLSON:  It may not but...

KELLERMAN:  This guy who lost his teeth, he‘s a dog trainer, so the ability to whistle is actually necessary to his job. 

CARLSON:  This is like—this is sort of one of those stories, it‘s got to be made up.  All the details are just more perverse than the next. 

KELLERMAN:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  Max Kellerman, speaking of perversity, in Las Vegas tonight. 

Good luck at the tables, Max. 

KELLERMAN:  Thank you, sir. 

Still plenty more ahead on THE SITUATION. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON (voice-over):  Unfaithfully yours.  We reveal the do‘s and the don‘ts of creating a goof proof alibi. 

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I did not have sexual relations with that woman. 

CARLSON:  Then...

A knife wielding suspect‘s wild stab at freedom.  Wait until you see how this great escape ends.  Plus, wax on, wax off.  A hair-raising look at life imitating art. 

STEVE CARELL, ACTOR:  This is not a good look for me. 

CARLSON:  And just in time for the holidays.  The perfect gift for that special samurai warrior in your life.  It‘s all ahead on THE SITUATION.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  There we go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Oh, my God!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Coming up, if you are hiding something in your life this holiday season, our next guest wants to help you hide it better.  He sells customized alibis for a living. 

CARLSON:  All you shady characters watching the show, get a pen and note pad ready.  We‘re back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  If you‘ve been naughty this year, you may want to treat yourself to a gift from my next guest this holiday season.  He runs AlibiNetwork.com.  It‘s a web site where you can literally buy yourself an alibi. 

Whether you‘re cheating on your wife, you‘ve skipped a day at work, or you‘re just a dirt ball in general, the Alibi Network will provide you with everything you need to cover your tracks. 

Here to explain how it works, a man we‘ll just call Jeffrey for the protection of his clients.  Jeffrey is concealing his identity tonight. 

Jeffrey, wherever you are, thanks a lot for joining us. 

JEFFREY, ALIBINETWORK.COM:  Thank you for having me. 

CARLSON:  So you basically are a lying service for people.  I don‘t mean that in a pejorative way.  Why would people call you?  Give me examples of why people would want your services. 

JEFFREY:  Well, for many, many years, and centuries, et cetera, people have been using, let‘s say, friends or associates to, let‘s say, cover things up.  And that‘s what we do, except that there‘s no concern about anybody finding out or having to worry about the friend or the confidante exposing you for any mishaps that might have happened. 

CARLSON:  So let‘s say I‘m doing something wrong.  Let‘s say you say off your web site, and say I wanted to blow off a day at work.  And I call you up. What would you do for me?

JEFFREY:  Well, blowing off work is an easy one.  Anybody can do that.  Not a real popular service, we certainly can call in for you.  We can provide excuses.  For instance, doctor‘s call from the doctor‘s office, with the actual doctor‘s office on the caller I.D.

They could—the work, if they choose to call to verify, we could make the number appear to be a doctor‘s office when it‘s actually going to our call center.

CARLSON:  Amazing.  That‘s impressive.  You say here that you can send phony party invitations to people.  Have you done that?

JEFFREY:  Well, phony party invitations?  Actually, the phony party invitations, I think that was—I think you‘re misinformed on that. 

CARLSON:  Oh.  Website is a great idea. 

JEFFREY:  It says so on the website?  Well, we‘re mostly—our main concern here is basically helping people get away with extramarital affairs, relationships.  We also help people with their image.  If they want to be pursued as somebody more important than they are, to impress somebody, we handle that. 

CARLSON:  Let‘s say—let‘s say—let‘s say. 

JEFFREY:  More elaborate than things like party invitations. 

CARLSON:  OK.  I‘ll try this one.  Let‘s say I wanted a raise. 

JEFFREY:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  Here at MSNBC. 

JEFFREY:  OK. 

CARLSON:  Could you convince management here that I had an offer from the Food Network or the Weather Channel?

JEFFREY:  Oh, absolutely.  I mean, we could send e-mails.  We could make phone calls on voice mails.  Stating that we‘re from another company, that we‘re really interested in the certain person to work for us, and we can certainly do that. 

CARLSON:  That‘s amazing. 

Now, you said that a lot of people who contact you are cheating on their spouses and they want your help.  What do they want you to do?

JEFFREY:  Well, the people that are using our service for that, to us, what it is is they‘re very much concerned with their family and their home situation.  They want to keep their marriage.  They want to keep their family situation.  It‘s a short-term, let‘s say, a short-term affair that they want covered up. 

Get it out of your system, the seven-year itch, so to speak and get it done and move on and put it behind you and not—and spare the spouse and the children the hurt. 

CARLSON:  What is your personal favorite alibi you‘ve come up with?

JEFFREY:  Well, most of the alibis are 99 percent concocted by our clients, but we have a lot of clients that come to us and say, well, we want to spend a weekend somewhere with a significant other, or somebody else. 

And, well, what we do is we provide seminars, training classes, very elaborate, let‘s say, hoaxes to make it appear that the person is, indeed, in a business atmosphere instead of a pleasure atmosphere. 

CARLSON:  Wow, so you‘re going to Barbados for that dental conference, but in fact, you‘re going with your girlfriend. 

JEFFREY:  Exactly.  Or anywhere in the world, we provide phone numbers from anyplace in the world.  Again, the Caller I.D. will state whatever the client wants it to state, and we do it quite well. 

CARLSON:  That is diabolical.  Jeffrey, does your wife know what you do for a living?

JEFFREY:  Absolutely, yes, she does. 

CARLSON:  What does she think?

JEFFREY:  Well, she thinks, as far as the way I explain it to her, which we believe here at Alibi Network, that if we‘re doing this, we are saving marriages.  The divorce rate—even if the divorce rate could go just a percentage lower than it is, then our job was well done because of the fact that people are not finding out.  They move on with their life, and their family life remains the same, untouched. 

CARLSON:  So this is a pro-family service. 

JEFFREY:  Absolutely. 

CARLSON:  All right.  Jeffrey, last name unknown, joining us by silhouette, from an unknown location, undisclosed.  Thank you, Jeffrey, I appreciate it. 

JEFFREY:  I thank you. 

CARLSON:  Coming up, you practically crashed our voice mail last night with your outpouring of responses to the execution of Tookie Williams.  We‘ll listen to a bunch of your passionate phone calls when THE SITUATION returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

Time for our voicemail segment.  You are fired up about the late Tookie Williams.  Let‘s get right to it.  First up.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Dave from Ohio, Missouri (ph).  I just am appalled at Al Sharpton.  I wondered if he would feel the same way if it were a skinhead on trial.  And if you read the transcripts that were on the Internet today, it‘s quite clear that the guy is guilty.  I just can‘t see why everybody would make the mistake.  This guy needs to pay for his crime. 

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Well, of course.  Look, skinheads are not his constituency so no, he would not feel the same way for a skinhead.  And yes, Tookie Williams is absolutely guilty of the quadruple murders he was convicted for. 

Whether he should have been executed for them is a separate question but you‘re right, he was guilty.  Next.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  This is Barbara from Des Moines.  You‘re against the death penalty, but you‘d be willing to let the survivors of victims grab knives or even behead an individual rather than see him put to death.  Something is wrong with your way of thinking.  You better cool off because you sound like a crazy man. 

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Well, thank you, Barbra.  Yes, it does sound kind of crazy.  But I mean it, and it‘s not something I came up with yesterday.  I actually believe that. 

I‘m opposed to the death penalty on libertarian grounds.  I don‘t want to empower the government to kill its own citizens except in self-defense. 

You kill someone in an act of vigilante justice and you shouldn‘t be exempt from the law.  You ought to be punished for that.  I‘m merely saying it‘s more morally palatable for me for a wronged individual to take revenge than for the state to take revenge in this kind of cold and calculated and I think very creepy way. 

Next.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This guy is (UNINTELLIGIBLE).  Tookie Williams is no hero.  He helped to create a network of violence so great in his creation of the Crips gang that no one will ever be able to count the number of his victims. 

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Yes, it‘s a good point.  So why are all these so-called community leaders, leaders of the exact same community terrorized and victimized by the Crips making excuses for Tookie Williams?  Making him into a hero when he wasn‘t.  He was a monster.

Certainly for a person, by the way, who I don‘t believe wrote those books, which he‘s gotten so much credit.  You may think his execution was wrong, but to make him into this cult figure is just wrong and stupid and counterproductive and ridiculous. 

That‘s what I think.  Well, let me know what you think.  You can call 1-877-TCARLSON.  That‘s 877-822-7576.  You can also e-mail Tucker@MNBC.com is the address.  And you can check out the blog, Tucker.MSNBC.com.

Still ahead on THE SITUATION, this guy‘s feeble attempt to attempt to escape the police is funny enough on its own.  Wait until you hear why he was first arrested in the first place.  Dumb criminals always have a home on the “Cutting Room Floor.”  Stay tuned. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Your protests and your petitions have worked. 

Willie Geist has returned to THE SITUATION for the “Cutting Room Floor.” 

WILLIAM GEIST, PRODUCER:  I‘m back, Tucker.  I am so proud tonight.  This is a benchmark night, our first guest in silhouette.  It‘s a big moment for any show. 

CARLSON:  That was good.

GEIST:  Now we can move forward. 

CARLSON:  The witness protection show. 

GEIST:  That‘s right.  I have one other point to make.  Remember the other night you stood up for the kid who wore the kilt to the prom?

CARLSON:  Yes.

GEIST:  ... and they made him take it off.  A Scottish newspaper, The Scotsman, the national newspaper, quoted you.

CARLSON:  Really?

GEIST:  You‘re to be lauded as a national hero in Scotland—I‘m not kidding...

CARLSON:  Those are my people.

GEIST:  for defending him.  And they‘re going to be so disappointed to learn that you‘re Swedish. 

CARLSON:  I won‘t tell them.  They‘ll never guess with a name like Carlson. 

Well, apparently, this man feels very strongly about his board games.  Police were called to his Lubbock, Texas, home after he allegedly stabbed a friend in a dispute over a board game.  That‘s when things really got interesting. 

Common sense told the man he could escape the clutches of six police officers so he made a run for it.  He was quickly stopped in his tracks by a Taser gun. 

GEIST:  And I bet there were nets involved in this story.

CARLSON:  Without question, come on.

GEIST:  Just a hunch.  Now, there‘s a lesson to our kids who are watching.  You should not stab your friends when you lose a board game.  You should punch them and say, “Do over.”  That‘s how you handle that. 

CARLSON:  Can we—is it against the rules to say what game it was?

GEIST:  No, actually, we don‘t know what game it was.  I don‘t think it‘s any board game you or I have played.

CARLSON:  I bet you $20 it‘s Boggle.  Just a guess.

GEIST:  Candyland Bingo, for my money.

CARLSON:  OK.

Now these men are not being tortured in a covert CIA prisoner, contestants in a chest waxing competition.  The painful looking event was held across the country over the last couple of days.  This one was at a salon in the city of Chicago.  Competitors judged on the hairiest chest and loudest scream.  First prize, a paltry $500. 

GEIST:  OK, Tucker, let‘s get something very straight about men.  Unless you‘re swimming the 100 meter butterfly at the summer Olympics, you should not shave your body. 

Or Lance Armstrong, he can do that, too, although I‘m not sure how that helps the wind resistance.  Let‘s stop shaving our bodies.  Can we agree to that?

CARLSON:  The Brazilian was made for me (ph).

I completely agree.  This is totally wrong.  It‘s indefensible behavior.  Truly, I‘d like to get someone on.  If you dare to defend body waxing by men, come on the show. 

GEIST:  We‘ll get you on tomorrow.

CARLSON:  Humanity took another step toward rendering itself obsolete today.  The Japanese Technology Company unveiled a new and improved version of Osimo, the robot that can do your chores and amazingly run circles, too. 

The new Osimo can run nearly four miles an hour.  A new line of armed robots was also introduced.  They‘re intended to be marketed as security robots, but we all know they will turn against us at some point. 

GEIST:  Yes, obviously, these guys didn‘t see the 1987 Peter Weller vehicle, “Robocop.”  You make them too sophisticated, eventually they come back to haunt you.  And this is dangerous.

CARLSON:  Well, of course they do.  Why would you want a robot to run in circles?

GEIST:  We‘re not making progress with the robots.  Robots should help me, not run in circles. 

CARLSON:  Exactly.  We don‘t understand because we‘re not Japanese.               

A substitute teacher in Jacksonville, Florida, probably took himself out of the running for a full time gig when he allegedly snorted cocaine in front of his seventh grade class last week.  The 22 students allege they saw the teacher snorting white powder while sitting at his desk. 

The man initially told the school principal it was headache powder. 

The police later found a bag of cocaine on his person. 

GEIST:  OK.  Obviously, that‘s wrong, but you know what else it is?  Foolish.  Everyone knows you have to wait till you get tenure before you start doing coke in the classroom, because then they can‘t touch you.  Right?

CARLSON:  Which is actually true, by the way. 

GEIST:  I‘m not kidding. 

CARLSON:  That‘s totally true, at least in New York. 

Greg Hogan is a sophomore at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania.  He‘s putting together one heck of a resume.  He‘s class president, his fraternity‘s rush chairman, a concert cellist and on top of all of that, a bank robber. 

GEIST:  Wow.

CARLSON:  Police say the 19-year-old son of a Baptist preacher walked into a bank last week and handed the teller a note saying he had a gun and he wanted money.  The model student made off with almost $3,000. 

GEIST:  Tucker, you know and I know it‘s tough being a college kid.  You don‘t have two nickels to rub together.  I know you did some topless dancing you‘re not real proud of in college, so let‘s cut this kid a little slack.  I believe in second chances. 

CARLSON:  I can honestly say...

GEIST:  Or was that me in college?  I don‘t know.

CARLSON:  Perverse—actually, I‘m not defending bank robbery, but it is kind of interesting resume.  I mean, let‘s be honest. 

GEIST:  He‘ll get a good job. 

CARLSON:  I bet he will.  Willie Geist.  

That‘s THE SITUATION for tonight.  Thank you for watching.  Up next, “COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN.”  Have a great night.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Copy: Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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