updated 1/17/2006 11:31:44 AM ET 2006-01-17T16:31:44

Guest: Judy Kuriansky, Oliver Thomas, Bill Fallon, Mark Kaplan, Louis Porter, Pam Bondi, Marc Klaas>

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Right now in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, nearly 50 potential sex molesters caught in a sex sting.  The arrests come during a three-day operation to nail kiddie sex predators on the Internet.  Sound familiar?  Well, it should.  It‘s another “Dateline NBC” investigation.  But, this time, they have got reinforcements, with badges. 

And then, new developments in the case of the Vermont judge who sentenced a child rapist to 60 days in jail.  Will this liberal judge and the rapist ever face justice? 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed. 

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, thanks for being with me tonight.  I hope you are having a great Monday night.  We are going to have those stories in just a minute.  Plus:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY NAGIN (D), MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS:  This city will be chocolate at the end of the day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  What‘s he talking about?  The New Orleans mayor is at it again, a crazy speech saying that God intended his city to be chocolate.  We will ask what he‘s talking about and ask why he says God sent the killer hurricane to the city and why he thinks God is mad at black America. 

We‘re going to try to untangle everything this very strange mayor is talking about. 

Happy Martin Luther King Day, New Orleans.

And a new study says TV in the bedroom is bad for your sex life.  We are going to have one of the nation‘s top sex and relationship experts here to explain it to all you men who still don‘t get it. 

But, first, a new and powerful “Dateline NBC” investigation into how predators use the Internet to stalk our children.  Now, we recently showed you a sting operation in a Virginia home.  That bust nabbed dozens of men who came looking for sex with a young child, including this naked guy. 

Now, with the help of Internet watchdog group Perverted Justice, “Dateline NBC” set up another sting operation in Southern California.  Now, for three days, NBC‘s “Dateline” managed to attract more than 50 online predators who were looking to have sex with a child. 

“Dateline”‘s Chris Hansen has more on the incredible hidden camera investigation. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HANSEN, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  It was almost two years ago when the first in a series of breakthrough investigations exposed a national epidemic. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Hello? 

HANSEN:  Grown men trolling the Internet, many looking for sex with minors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Did you bring condoms?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes. 

HANSEN:  In two different investigations, in two different states, dozens of men showed up at our undercover houses after chatting about sex online and then making a date with a minor. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Just sit at the kitchen counter for a minute. 

And I be down in a second.

HANSEN:  One man who sent obscene video of himself to someone posing as a 13-year-old girl was a New York City firefighter, who we then confronted. 

(on camera):  Is this appropriate behavior for a New York City firefighter? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, sir.  It‘s not. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Hello?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Hi.

HANSEN:  This man was a rabbi. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You know I‘m in trouble.  And I know I‘m in trouble. 

HANSEN:  And he was not happy when he found out he would be exposed on national television.

(CROSSTALK)

HANSEN:  You don‘t—you don‘t want to go there.  You don‘t want...   

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You‘ve got to stop this.

HANSEN:  Both of our investigations were watched by millions of people.  It was the talk of radio and cable television shows for weeks.

SCARBOROUGH: “Dateline” confronted the...

So have sexual predators learned any lesson at all? 

Apparently not.  Just this week, “Dateline” was back in action for a third investigation, this time in Southern California.  As you‘ll see, some men are simply not getting the message.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Hello?

HANSEN:  Meet 40-year-old Daniel Pulido.  He‘s hoping to meet a 13-year-old girl home alone. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I got to finish brushing my teeth, OK? 

DANIEL PULIDO:  OK. 

HANSEN:  He sent her pictures over the Internet of his genitals, and then asked if she‘d give him oral sex.  He‘s in for a big surprise when I walk in. 

(on camera):  How are you tonight?

(voice-over):  Like so many others, he says he wasn‘t really here for sex.  He tells me he was here to teach the girl a lesson about the dangers of talking to strangers online.

(on camera):  You posed naked on your Webcam so a 13-year-old girl could see it because you wanted to teach her a lesson.

PULIDO:  Well, you could say that.

HANSEN:  So, this was a like a tough-love thing?

PULIDO:  Yes. 

HANSEN:  Did you bring condoms with you?

PULIDO:  Yes, I did.

HANSEN:  What part of the lesson were you going to use the condoms for?

PULIDO:  I wasn‘t going to use them.  I was going to give them to her.

HANSEN (voice-over):  Daniel Pulido may really be the one who needs to learn a lesson.  You won‘t believe what he admits to me.

(on camera):  Do you ever watch “Dateline” NBC?

PULIDO:  Yes.

HANSEN:  Have you ever seen our stories on computer predators?

PULIDO:  Yes.

HANSEN:  This is one of them.  Now, if there is anything else you would like to say for yourself...

PULIDO:  That‘s it.

HANSEN:  Then, obviously, you are free to leave. 

PULIDO:  Thank you. 

HANSEN:  Unlike our previous hidden camera operations, where after leaving the house some men were able to make a run for it...

(on camera):  I want to talk to you for a minute.

(voice-over):  ... this time, things will be different.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  You‘re not calling me to tell me, like, no?

HANSEN:              For our new investigation, Perverted Justice, the watchdog group that regularly catches online predators, set up a plan with the Riverside County Sheriff‘s Department. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Black Saturn doesn‘t ring a bell with night.

HANSEN:  Frag, a Perverted Justice volunteer who is inside the house, alerts detectives when a potential predator is on the way.  Once the man leaves the house, he can run, but he can‘t hide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Sheriff‘s department.  Come out to the street. 

Turn around. 

HANSEN:  And Daniel Pulido is just one in another parade of potential predators. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Nothing on you? 

HANSEN:  We thought we‘d heard it all, but nothing could prepare us for the kinds of thing we found during our latest investigation.

(on camera):  If he would have consented to having sex, what would have happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘d be very hesitant at first.  If he would have continued, then, possibly we would have had had it.

HANSEN:  Possibly, you would have had sex with a 13-year-old boy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Right. 

HANSEN (voice-over):  Dozens of men show up, some of who‘ve already been convicted of sex crimes with minors. 

(on camera):  So you‘re on probation for having sex with a boy how old?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Fifteen.

HANSEN:  Fifteen. And now you are in the house to meet a 13-year-old boy? 

(voice-over):  While our first two investigations saw almost 20 men show up each time, as you‘ll soon see, those numbers were dwarfed by what we found in our latest investigation in Southern California. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  With me now, we have got Marc Klaas, who has become a tireless advocate for children since his own daughter Polly was kidnapped and murdered by a sex offender.  And Florida prosecutor Pam Bondi.

Pam, you work in the trenches every day with these animals.  What do we do to stamp out this epidemic that continues to grow in America? 

PAM BONDI, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR:  Well, Joe, you are helping do it right now by publicizing this.  That‘s why I think this “Dateline” special is so great, because it lets parents know that these predators are out there. 

You and I know it.  And we see it every day.  but parents don‘t.  And they need to know that when their kids are on the Internet, they are predators out there, all over the country. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Pam, let me stop you right there, because I want to ask you, after parents received this type of information, isn‘t it safe to say that if a child gets caught up in a relationship with an Internet sex predator, the parents are partially to blame? 

BONDI:  Well, Joe, parents don‘t always know what their kids are doing, especially when they are young teens and they‘re on the Internet for hours nowadays.  I mean, they have the computer games, and there are so many good legitimate things for kids to do on the Internet. 

But you have to monitor the sites that your children are going on to.  You have to look at them.  And you have to know what they‘re doing.  the sites your children are going on to.  You have to look at them and you have to know what they are doing.  And I think many parents are naive and would never suspect that this would be going on.  But now look.  They just caught 50 more guys doing this in California.  It‘s horrible.

SCARBOROUGH:  Fifty more guys. 

And, Marc Klaas, I will tell you, these sex predators are crawling around out there like cockroaches.  What do we do to stamp out the epidemic?  I blame parents who let their kids sit on computers all night and day.  But, also, our politicians are letting our children down, too, aren‘t they?

MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION:  Well, this is a significant 21st century public safety issue.  There‘s no question about that. 

But, remember, it‘s the 21st century.  And an awful lot of kids have their own laptops.  They have PDAs.  They have cell phones that give them Internet capability.  They use wireless technology. 

So, it‘s almost impossible for a parent to be able to monitor a child‘s activity, particularly if that child is erasing their history on a regular basis.  But, certainly, this is something the government should be paying much more attention to.  I think the ISPs...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  What can the government do?  Marc, we have been fighting

you have been fighting this since, what, 1993, 1994? 

KLAAS:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We have been fighting it for the past three years.  We go to Capitol Hill.  People like you pitch in.  And yet, they are still not passing important legislation. 

How do we get government‘s attention and what‘s the main thing our politicians in D.C. need to do to fix this problem? 

KLAAS:  Well, we will probably get government‘s attention once a congressman‘s young child is lured in one of these situations, because then it will be one of theirs.  They won‘t be looking out at everybody else. 

Now, I think one of the things that government can do right now, though, without legislation is hand out grants to law enforcement agencies so they can have an officer on duty at all times working this very kind of a situation.  There is certainly not a problem with that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Pam Bondi, you know, for parents, like Marc, who have lost their child, for other parents whose young child has been—like the Vermont case, where that poor 6-year-old girl was molested for four years, it looks now like by two men, you can‘t give them a long enough prison sentence. 

How do you explain to Marc or somebody else that, if their child is molested, kidnapped or killed, that the offender shouldn‘t go to jail for life? 

BONDI:  Well, Joe, you can‘t, especially when you have a cooperative victim and you have parents who want to prosecute. 

I mean, these guys are clearly sexual predators.  And, as we just heard, many of them are already on probation for a sexual offense. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, throw them in jail for life?

Like this guy right here.  There‘s a guy that was already a sexual predator. 

BONDI:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Got busted for having sex with a 15-year-old.  He‘s now seeking a 13-year-old sexual partner. 

BONDI:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Why not throw him in jail for life? 

BONDI:  They should.  They should.  Absolutely.  And he‘s one of the worst ones.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  But we don‘t, Pam.  Why? 

BONDI:  Well, Joe, our laws are different in every state. 

Now, if you have a cooperative victim, he would be the easiest one to put away now, because he‘s on probation.  So, just on the probation violation alone, hopefully, he will never see the light of day again, especially with these new charges. 

But you are right.  There are so many predators out there around this country.  And you have got to commend “Dateline,” you have got to commend law enforcement for doing everything they can.  And I think what Marc Klaas just said was great about giving law enforcement grants. 

We know the need is out there.  You could have full-time officers in every county working on this, and it really wouldn‘t be enough to stop these predators.  We see it every day in Florida, in all our states. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Marc, you know the best way to stop these predators?  Throw them in jail. 

KLAAS:  Well, certainly.  Absolutely.

SCARBOROUGH:  No kids in jail.  Throw them in jail.  Throw away the key.  Lock them up and don‘t let them see the light of day again.

Now, of course, in Vermont, you got this guy.  We are going to talk about this in a segment.  You got this guy that was molesting a girl for four years.  Basically, he‘s going to spend 60 days in jail and then walk. 

What kind of message does that send to Americans in the middle of this kind of epidemic? 

KLAAS:  Well, it certainly sends a message to the perverts out there that Vermont is a good place to practice your perversion, because you are not even going to get a slap on your hand. 

California, on the other hand, where this guy committed this crime or was about to commit a crime against a 13-year-old, is going to make him eligible most likely for a second or third strike, which will put him in prison with a felony enhancement for a good long period of time.  There‘s absolutely no question. 

If you look back, though, at what happened in the last decade, when we started passing truth in sentencing and locking up these bad guys for much longer periods of time, crime went down significantly in this country.  And if we were to take the same approach to sexual predators against children and put them away for long periods of time, as they are doing in Florida with Jessica‘s Law right now, I think we could make a significant change in the statistics on this.  Unfortunately...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  A big difference.  No doubt about it, Marc. 

KLAAS:  Absolutely.

SCARBOROUGH:  But, unfortunately, politicians don‘t have the guts to step forward and do it.

KLAAS:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Marc Klaas, Pam Bondi, thanks.  Thanks for being with us. 

I have got to tell you, friends, I‘m going to tell you the school that I come from.  It‘s the Rudy Giuliani school.  When somebody commits a crime, I‘m not interested in rehabilitation.  I‘m interested in punishment.  I want to send them to jail.  Get them off the street, first of all.  But, secondly, is send a message to other criminals out there, in this case, other perverts out there that want to hurt your children and want to hurt my children.  Throw them in jail.  Don‘t let them out. 

Hey, and make sure you catch “Dateline”‘s full hidden camera investigation.  It airs February 3 at 9:00 p.m. on NBC.  These guys are doing God‘s work. 

Hey, we are going to be right back in a second with new developments in the case of the Vermont judge who is still on the bench after sentencing a convicted child rapist to 60 days in jail.  He‘s got defenders up in Vermont.  We will tell you about it. 

And, later, the mayor of New Orleans delivers a controversial speech on race relations and says God intends the city of New Orleans to be chocolate.  We will tell you what he means when we come back. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, I‘m not making this up.  The mayor of New Orleans today said in a Martin Luther King Day speech that God sent Hurricane Katrina to New Orleans because he was mad at African-Americans.  But he then said God intended to rebuild New Orleans as—quote—“a chocolate city.” 

We will tell you what he means when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Tonight, there are new developments in the case of the Vermont judge, Edward Cashman, who sentenced a confessed child rapist to just 60 days behind bars.  Prosecutors are asking the judge to reconsider his sentence and lock up Mark Hulett for eight to 20 years. 

With me now by phone, we have got reporter Louis Porter of the Vermont Press Bureau.

Louis, thank you so much for being with us. 

Give us an update.  What‘s happened today?  What‘s the very latest in this story? 

LOUIS PORTER, VERMONT PRESS BUREAU:  Well, as you say, the prosecutors are asking the judge to reconsider the sentence which has become quite a controversial one, as you know. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Originally, the judge said this guy was only going to get 60 days behind bars, going to suspend the rest of his long sentence because he couldn‘t get treatment inside the jail. 

I understand that Vermont officials have said now that they will provide this guy treatment inside the jail.  Has this given the judge any reason to reconsider? 

PORTER:  Well, the Vermont officials who have offered that are certainly hoping that it is.  And, as you say, the minimum would have been 60 days in jail, although there would have been significant conditions and oversight over him afterwards as well. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Right, but 60 days in jail.  But you are saying that Vermont officials are hoping that the judge will reconsider the sentence.  Any evidence that that may take place? 

PORTER:  It‘s still too early to say whether that will take place or not.  He has some time both for the defense to make their motions and for him to schedule a reconsideration. 

Vermont officials offered, as you say, to give this guy sex offender treatment in prison if the judge did reconsider.  And they are reevaluating whether they give treatment to this kind of offender in the first place. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Louis, I was giving a speech in South Florida earlier—well, actually, last week.  And people down in South Florida were talking about this case in Vermont and were just outraged by what they had heard about the case. 

I‘m curious.  What‘s the impact of this case been on Vermont politics? 

Are a lot of politicians out there talking about the judge‘s sentence? 

What‘s the breakdown?  Who‘s defending him?  Who‘s fighting him? 

PORTER:  It‘s not just politicians.  As you say, people all over the state and large parts of the country are talking about it. 

And there‘s been a lot of outrage, as you say, over the sentence, although some people have also come forward since, more recently.  For instance, our former chief justice of the Vermont Supreme Court, who is himself a Republican, recently said that one important thing to remember is that whether you agree with this sentence or not, it‘s important that the judiciary and the courts are independent and are able to operate under that independence. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much, Louis.  Greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. 

PORTER:  Thank you for having me. 

SCARBOROUGH:  With me now to talk about the case, we have Mark Hulett‘s attorney, Mark Kaplan, and also former sex crimes prosecutor Bill Fallon. 

I want to thank both of you for being with us. 

Mark, let me begin with you. 

People I talked to at this speech and the people that are e-mailing me

and, obviously, you know this case is having a huge impact across the country.  They are thinking, if your client raped this little girl for four years, he should go to jail for life and not just spend 60 days behind bars.  What do you say to that? 

 

MARK KAPLAN, ATTORNEY FOR MARK HULETT:  Well, I think it‘s important to keep the context of the sentence in perspective. 

The judge did not just issue a sentence that incarcerated my client for 60 days.  The effective sentence is five years, 60 days to life.  He‘s a low-risk offender, never been in trouble before. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  He raped a girl for four years.  That‘s low-risk?  I have got three kids.  I wouldn‘t say a guy that rapes a girl for four years is low-risk. 

KAPLAN:  Well, you know, low-risk is—may be a definition that‘s difficult to define.  But it was—the Department of Corrections made the assessment that he was low-risk. 

The defense expert, Dr. William Cunningham, made the assessment that he was low-risk.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Mark, I don‘t want to get personal, but I got to ask you, do you have any kids? 

KAPLAN:  Do I have children?  Yes, I...

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

KAPLAN:  I don‘t know why that would be relevant.  But the issue...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, because I was going to just ask you, as a dad to a dad, if you had a little girl and you had a guy in your neighborhood that raped another girl for four years, whether you consider him low-risk, regardless of what Vermont officials or experts had to say, because I got to tell you, personally, I would consider that guy a very high risk. 

KAPLAN:  Well, you know, as a criminal defense attorney, unfortunately, I don‘t have the privilege of making social assessments on cases.  What I do is, I represent my clients... 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m just asking you as a dad, just asking you as a dad, just a personal question.  Would you consider a guy that raped a girl for four years to be low-risk? 

KAPLAN:  Well, you know, I can see a situation such as the one that I have now where the experts in the field, both for the defense and for the state, assessed someone to be low-risk. 

The issue—when you talk about the issue of low-risk...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  As a dad, would you consider a guy that raped a girl for four years low-risk? 

KAPLAN:  I wouldn‘t have the expertise to make that assessment in terms of... 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Well, I have got to tell you, I do. 

(CROSSTALK)

BILL FALLON, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  I do.  I do. 

SCARBOROUGH:  If my next-door neighbor—OK.  Yes.  Let me ask you, Bill.  I will bring you in here. 

Let me ask you this.  If you knew that your next-door neighbor had raped a little girl from the time she was 6 years old to 10 years old, could you be able to figure out whether he was a high-risk or a low-risk? 

FALLON:  Yes. 

This is the most moronic system I have ever heard.  Quite frankly, Joe, as you know, 60 days, somebody would say, if it‘s 60 years is not enough.  Anybody who would suggest, and this judge, it seems to me, is suggesting, let‘s hope that counseling helps.  For 25 years, I was the chief of a sexual assault unit and child abuse unit. 

What we know is, no one knows what‘s low-risk and high-risk.  What we know is that we certainly shouldn‘t put these people back in the community.  What we know is that a judge like this shouldn‘t be making a decision.  And the reason he should be off the bench is not because, as the chief justice said, we need an independent judiciary. 

This judge said, I do not think punishment and retribution should be considered.  That means he‘s not following the law.  That means he‘s out.  And when the Department of Corrections said low-risk, they said he should do three years, which, as we all know, is something like 18 times what the judge gave. 

The prosecutor is asking something like 60 times what the judge gave.  The outrage here is, I think the prosecution is low.  Now, maybe they are saying it because he pled guilty.  By pleading guilty, he‘s off the street.  Anybody who cannot guarantee that this guy is not going to do it again, that should be the punishment here. 

Can we make a guarantee?  And, if we can‘t, we have to protect this child and the public. 

And let me just tell you, the fake part about, is this—and I have worked with psychologists.  I trained psychiatrists.  I have trained therapists on this issue.  All they can say is, from what we know, we‘re not sure that he is going to rape again.  Is that enough for anybody to say they were low-risk? 

All—and this is a guy, by the way, who, as far as I know, has not apologized to the victim, had not expressed he‘s sorry.  And what I hear is, we are hoping he gets counseling in his 60 -- after his 60 days, so that he can come to understand the error of his ways and apologize.  If this doesn‘t say he shouldn‘t get out, I don‘t know what does. 

And there is no hope for people who are just saying, well, we will throw him out and hope on that whim and a prayer that he‘s going to get better, because I think that‘s an outrage to this victim, to other victims and society as a whole. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Mark, Derek Kimball has now been arrested for also raping this little girl.  Did your client know Derek Kimball? 

KAPLAN:  I think they did know each other.  But that‘s not an issue that I have discussed with him. 

You know, one thing that ought to be pointed out here...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, but the thing is, if he knew that Derek was also raping this little girl and didn‘t tell authorities, shouldn‘t the judge consider a longer sentence for that? 

KAPLAN:  Well, there isn‘t any evidence of that. 

But one fact that needs to be corrected is...

SCARBOROUGH:  But you haven‘t even asked him that?  Shouldn‘t you ask your client that? 

KAPLAN:  I wouldn‘t be a position to discuss what I have discussed with my client.  But, you know, I think it‘s important to point out...

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you just told me you didn‘t discuss it with him. 

KAPLAN:  I didn‘t say that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m just saying just—yes, you did.  You are saying you all haven‘t talked about that. 

Don‘t you think that the judge needs to know whether these two guys were talking to each other while both of them were raping this little girl? 

KAPLAN:  I think what‘s more important to understand is that this judge...

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  I think that‘s pretty important to understand. 

KAPLAN:  This judge never said that he didn‘t believe in punishment. 

He seriously considered punishment in handing down this sentence.  His concern was that this individual would be released some day, and he would be released into the community as an untreated sex offender.  That was a concern for the court. 

(CROSSTALK)

FALLON:  Mark, with counseling when he got out.  This is the bogus part of that argument. 

KAPLAN:  I can hear you.  I can hear you all right.

FALLON:  The judge was suggesting, after he did this, after he did this, he was going to get counseling later.

And what he said is, you only deserve 60 days, and then you get your counseling right away.  There‘s nothing, by the way, that suggests, in almost anybody‘s analysis of this, that somebody shouldn‘t be punished for more than 60 days, so that they get the message that, in fact, if you are going to rape I would say once, not one year, not two years, not three years, but four years.

To think that somebody basically got maybe a minute for every day that he raped a child is ridiculous.  And this judge I think does not know about sexual abuse sentencing, for him to suggest that we‘re going to take a risk that somebody only do 60 days and hope that the treatment that he gets is OK.  And the judge did say he thinks we should not look at retribution here. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

KAPLAN:  And he has strong questions, if you read his findings, about whether or not punishment is really the goal, a goal here, and an appropriate... 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  No doubt about it, Bill.

Thank—hey, Bill, thanks for being with us. 

Mark, thank you so much for being with us.

I want to read to you what Judge Cashman had to say about retribution, if you guys can put it back up on the screen.  This is what he had to say about retribution when sentencing Mr. Hulett on January the 4th, said—quote—“I discovered it accomplished nothing of value.  It doesn‘t make anything better.  It costs us a lot of money.  We create a lot of expectation, and we feed on anger.”

Let me tell you what.  It does work.  You throw these scumbags in jail, they can‘t be out to rape your little daughter or your little son. 

We will be right back with more SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY in a minute. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  A new study says television in your bedroom is very bad for your love life.  That is, of course, unless you are watching SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  So, what is a guy when there is great stuff on TV, other than SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY?  Maybe set the VCR.  Well, I‘ll tell you what.  We will have all the findings in that study for you when we come back.

But, first, here‘s the latest news you and your family need to know.   

(NEWS BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Nearly 28 years ago, the most trusted man in America said it was time to get out of Vietnam, causing shockwaves across the country.  Now Walter Cronkite says America should get out of Iraq.  But is anybody listening this time? 

And want to spice up your love life?  It may start with you relocating something out of your bedroom.  We will explain that one later on, as if we haven‘t already killed that with a tease. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY—those stories in just minutes. 

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin, of course, this guy—he has been at the center of controversy since Hurricane Katrina crashed into the Big Easy last summer.  But today, in his Martin Luther King speech, the mayor offered these words to the citizens of his city. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY NAGIN (D), MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS:  It‘s time for us to come together.  It‘s time for us to rebuild a New Orleans, the one that should be a chocolate New Orleans. 

This city will be a majority African-American city.  It‘s the way God wants it to be.  You can‘t have New Orleans no other way.  

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  The mayor didn‘t stop there.  He went on to explain why his city was crushed by two major hurricanes. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAGIN:  Surely God is mad at America.  He‘s sending hurricane after hurricane after hurricane.  And it‘s destroying and putting stress on this country.  Surely he‘s not approval of us being in Iraq under false pretenses.  But surely he is upset at black America also. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCARBOROUGH:  Doug?  Well, I tell you what.  Let me bring in New Orleans City Council President Oliver Thomas and presidential historian and resident of New Orleans Doug Brinkley, who is working on a book about how Katrina affected the city.  And I will be asking him in a second how it affected Ray Nagin‘s head.

But, Oliver, let me begin with you.

What if a white politician came out and claimed that God had told him that New Orleans was going to be a white city, that it was in God‘s will? 

OLIVER THOMAS, NEW ORLEANS CITY COUNCIL PRESIDENT:  Well, we would be taking his temperature.  We would be recommending all kind of psychiatrists and psychologists, and we would want him beheaded at the first public meeting. 

Man or woman should be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin.  I have a dream today that all of God‘s children, little white children, little black children, would be together.  That‘s what Dr. King said. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, that‘s not what Ray Nagin said, though.  He said that God had told him that New Orleans was meant to be a—quote—

“chocolate city.”  So what should happen to Ray Nagin? 

(CROSSTALK)

THOMAS:  Well, God told me never to reveal any of my conversations with him, because people might think I was cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Exactly.  So, if a white politician says this, they would be run out of office in 12 minutes.  Ray Nagin is saying it.  Should he be run out of office also? 

THOMAS:  Well, you know, I‘m sure people are greasing up some rails right now. 

And I really don‘t know that people are going to decide.  But what I do know is, I have gotten two e-mails today, one canceling a convention, a meeting coming to town, and one canceling a business coming back to town.  And I‘m trying to plead with them to change...

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

THOMAS:  I don‘t know what went on there.  We just had a big unity day, where whites, and blacks, and males, and females, and Hispanics, and everybody got together to talk about how we do this. 

And I don‘t know what happened.  I can‘t speak for what‘s happening in the mayor‘s head.  But what I do know is, wrong time, wrong orbit, wrong words.

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes. 

THOMAS:  And especially if you are talking about healing and bringing this community and this country together.  Just not supposed to happen.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s no way to do it.  You are exactly right, Oliver. 

THOMAS:  No.  No.

SCARBOROUGH:  Douglas Brinkley, let me bring you in here.  Again, you heard all the quotes today.  I know you were horrified as a New Orleans resident, the mayor talking about how New Orleans was meant to be an African-American city, that it‘s going to be a chocolate city, just like it was meant to be, and that Hurricane Katrina crashed into New Orleans because God was mad at black people. 

What‘s wrong with Mayor Nagin‘s head? 

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, NBC ANALYST:  Well, first of all, Ray Nagin is becoming the Pat Robertson really of the Democratic Party, once he got started getting a focus on him at Hurricane Katrina. 

He‘s narcissistic.  He‘s messianic.  He cracked up on August 29, when Katrina hit, when he was up in the top of the Hyatt.  He hid for days.  He hasn‘t been the same since.  There‘s going to be a lot of evidence coming out in the coming weeks that show that he has had a series of essentially nervous breakdowns. 

He‘s not a man that—not with full mental capacity.  We have been trying to communicate—I have been trying to communicate that. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me stop you there.  Let me stop you there. 

You are telling us tonight that evidence is going to come out that the mayor of New Orleans is mentally unstable? 

BRINKLEY:  I think that‘s correct. 

Look, we‘re not doctors, but what—we can tell.  Look at the comments you just got.  What you didn‘t mention to listeners, part of the speech today, he told about his conversations he had with Martin Luther King Jr. and to tell him to say this, to tell him that it should be a chocolate city, to talk about what—he thinks God is putting hurricanes on America. 

What about those poor, God, the poor people in the Lower Ninth Ward, where Councilman Oliver Thomas did such a good job trying to get people to evacuate?  Those people lost everything.  And he‘s essentially telling them, God is punishing them because they lived in New Orleans. 

It‘s hurtful remarks he made today.  It was not done as an off—a microphone picking it up.  It was done at a City Hall to honor Martin Luther King.  It was totally inappropriate.  He‘s a man who doesn‘t consult with anybody in town.  He doesn‘t consult with the city council. 

And the business community doesn‘t know what to do.  One day, he says, we should have Mardi Gras.  The next day, he‘s with a different crowd.  He doesn‘t.  He tells everybody what they want to hear. 

Bottom line is, this is a man who has had some kind of a mental fatigue, a crackdown that occurred.  When you study combat, you find out that these things are real, post-traumatic stress syndrome. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.   

BRINKLEY:  And I think that he‘s under this.  And we have to—we—he shouldn‘t be mayor as of February, but we have to stick it out. 

We‘re trying to have an election on August 29 and get rid of him.  So, I‘m sad to hear that—or the councilman talking about businesses canceling.  They should come back to New Orleans.  Don‘t worry about Ray Nagin.  He‘s going to be a relic soon.

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Let me ask you this, though, Doug.  Got to ask you this question, though.

BRINKLEY:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And it‘s the same question I asked the councilman.  If David Duke had come out and said that God told him that New Orleans was meant to be a white city, the guy would be driven from town if he were mayor of New Orleans. 

BRINKLEY:  Exactly. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Ray Nagin says it, and is everybody just yawning because this guy is crazy?  Or do you not think that the same thing should happen to Ray Nagin that would happen to a white politician if they had said something that, in effect, is racist?

(CROSSTALK)

BRINKLEY:  It is.  And he needs to resign over these remarks.

(CROSSTALK)

BRINKLEY:  But—go ahead, Oliver. 

THOMAS:  No.

I‘m here as an African-American leader, leading the black communist  But, as a leader for all people, that it‘s just in a time when we‘re on our knees, we‘re at the mercy of the president, the Congress, other major business leaders, and people throughout this world, that it just should not happen. 

I think, if Dr. King would amend his speech, he would—if he were watching this today, he would probably say, I have a dream that people who are not going to say something constructive would never open their mouths again. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  So, should Mayor Nagin resign for the statements that he made earlier today? 

THOMAS:  Well, you know, as a politician, I‘m not going to talk in terms of anyone else‘s resignation or what should happen to them politically. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Dr. King had the nerve to step out and do things like that.

THOMAS:  Well, yes, he did. 

But, as a leader in this community, I want to tell people that no one in this community is monolithic.  We don‘t all think the same.  We don‘t all act the same way.  And we all need to be rational about how we move forward and maybe kind of pausing and thinking before we speak. 

And anyone who may be upset about those comments, I want them to know that we have a community, that you still be encouraged to bring your business, your convention, and to come back to relocate.  I cannot speak for Mayor Nagin.  I can speak—I speak for myself, though.   

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Councilman Thomas, I can tell you that Doug Brinkley and a lot of us that love New Orleans would love to you have you as mayor of that great city, instead of the crackpot who is there right now.  I hope you will consider it.

Doug Brinkley, Oliver Thomas, thank you so much for being with us. 

BRINKLEY:  Thank you. 

THOMAS:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m joined right now by Tucker Carlson, who often talks to God.  But, when God speaks back, Tucker keeps it to himself.

Tucker, what is the situation tonight?

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON”:  I

certainly do keep it to my....

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON:  You‘re right, Joe.  And Oliver Thomas...

SCARBOROUGH:  On your very vanilla show. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  Go ahead. 

CARLSON:  Oliver Thomas is absolutely right, by the way, in everything he said.

SCARBOROUGH:  He‘s a great guy. 

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON:  He is a great guy. 

And we‘re going to be talking about almost exactly the same tonight in great detail, starting out with Julian Bond, the chairman of the NAACP.  I have no idea what his response to this is going to be.  He has just learned the news of Mayor Nagin‘s openly racist and inflammatory and I will—I agree with Doug Brinkley—kind of crazy remarks tonight, which I think are going to hurt New Orleans and the state of Louisiana when it‘s time—and that time is coming soon—to get the federal money. 

This doesn‘t help the city at all.  But there‘s a larger point here.  And it‘s this.  Should politicians be able to openly make appeals to racial or ethnic groups when they are supposed to be representing everybody?  The answer, of course, is no.  But they do it anyway.  And it‘s wrong.

SCARBOROUGH:  So, Tucker, just guess for me, if you will.  He‘s going to be your guest.  So, you may not want to say.  But do you think Julian Bond is going to come out and crack down hard on Mayor Nagin?  Or do you think he‘s going to apologize for him? 

CARLSON:  You know, Joe, my assumption always is, people are decent.  They‘re reasonable.  They will listen to the facts and come to the right conclusion.  That‘s what Americans do. 

They don‘t always do that.  And, when they don‘t, I‘m deeply disappointed.  But I‘m prepared to be delighted by what Mr. Bond has to say. 

No, of course he‘s going to defend the remarks. 

(LAUGHTER)

CARLSON:  But we will find out.  I‘m keeping an open mind. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  Unfortunately, looking at some of the remarks he‘s made in the past, I agree with you.  But we will see.  Maybe he will surprise me. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Tucker, thanks a lot.

CARLSON:  Thanks, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m going to be tuning in to see what he says.  That‘s THE SITUATION, 11:00 Eastern, 10:00 in flyover space. 

Coming up next, speaking of flyover, tonight, a real flyover.  You are going to see who evicted this moose and why.

And later, looking to spice up your love life?  Well, there is something you may want to take out of the bedroom.  And the men out there, especially, may want to watch this one. 

Then we are going to have tonight‘s “Joe‘s Schmoe.”  Does punishment fit the crime? 

Stick around. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  And now it‘s time for another flyover of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, some of the stories that may have fallen under the mainstream media‘s radar, but not ours.

We begin tonight in Pasadena, California.  And what is that old saying?  Once you have lost Walter Cronkite, you have lost America?  Well, the former CBS anchorman finally had his Vietnam moment on Sunday while talking with reporters about the war in Iraq. 

He said, -- quote—“It‘s my belief that we should get out now.”  The 89-year-old former CBS news anchor said we should tell Iraqis our hearts are with them, but we quit. 

And, Walter, with all respect, you have lost Middle America.  They are not listening anymore.  And thank goodness, neither is the president. 

And our next stop is the air above Utah.  And you can look up in the sky there, and it‘s a bird.  It‘s a plane.  No.  It‘s flying moose.  Wildlife experts began their moose relocation program today.  And helicopters swept in to scoop up the moose.  The dangling animals were being moved from Utah to Colorado, which officials are claiming is a safer place for them to roam. 

Now, what happens is, workers pluck the moose from a reservoir area, which then loads them into trailers and ships them to greener pastures.  Colorado‘s returning the favor to Utah by shipping Utah a shipment of bighorn sheep. 

And what state, really, can live without their fair share of bighorn sheep?  We certainly have them all over Florida. 

Coming up next, a new study says that a simple change in your bedroom could double the amount of romance that you have.  We will explain.

And tonight‘s “Joe‘s Schmoe.”  He chooses church over jail, but, friends, there‘s a big catch.  We will tell you about it when we return. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Men, don‘t reach for the remote control.  You‘re going to want to see this, because if you‘re watching this program in bed, your love life could be in trouble.  That‘s according—that‘s not true.  SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY actually enhances your love life.

But other programs late at night may hurt them, according to a new study in Italy, which says that couples who have a TV in their bedroom have half as much sex as those who don‘t have a TV there.

With me now to discuss this disturbing, disturbing study is Dr. Judy Kuriansky.

Doctor, thanks so much.  Tell us about this study and why it‘s so important for couples with relationships.

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, COUPLES COUNSELOR:  Well, I know, Joe, that you‘re upset about it, because you want people to be watching your show.

And I don‘t mind that, because the study basically shows that your sex life will go down if you‘re watching your show or TV in the bedroom.  So, I don‘t mind.  You can move the bed—the TV out to the living room and watch your show, and that‘s OK.

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  I get it.

So, if they‘re watching SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY in the living room, that is great.  Just don‘t watch it in the bedroom.

OK.  So, tell me, who are the bigger offenders?  Let‘s expand this out, because poor Tucker Carlson is coming up next.  Let‘s say a guy likes watching “Monday Night Football” in the bedroom.  His wife likes watching something else.  Who are the bigger offenders in this area, men or women?

(CROSSTALK)

KURIANSKY:  Men are the bigger offenders.  And you really put your finger on another important issue.

And that is the issue between the types of shows, because this study, done in Italy, by the way, on about 500-some odd couples, showed that if you‘re watching a violent show, then the amount of times you have sex is also going to go down.  So, if you want a better sex life, then, at nighttime, you better keep the bedroom for two S‘s.  That‘s sleep and sex. 

Move the TV in the other room.  And we have been saying this, by the way, as sex therapists, for years.  So, the Italians did a study about it now.  But, for years, we have been advising no TV.  The bed should trigger the thought of sensuality and seduction, and not stimulation from a football games.  That‘s why guys are having a harder time with this. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  So, let‘s talk about other technologies.  You have got cell phones.  You have got computers, laptop computers...

KURIANSKY:  That‘s right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... that are wireless now that you can take into your bedroom. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  All these things, that also has to obviously be a big detriment, right? 

KURIANSKY:  Well, exactly. 

And that‘s the latest piece of advice we say, which is, you have to turn off all the electronic equipment.  One of the biggest problems that couples have in sex is that they don‘t set aside time, time to just be together without distractions, which includes kids, by the way, who are not technological. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.

KURIANSKY:  So, you have to put them out of the scene as well. 

But, lately, there‘s all—you turn off the cell phones.  You turn off the computers, and you just concentrate on being together, because that T., of time, is very crucial for improving your sex life. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thank you so much, Doctor.  Greatly appreciate it. 

And we will be right back with tonight‘s “Joe Schmoe.”

Plus, “THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON” just minutes away.  Stick around, because this show could save your love life. 

Just look at that.  They are having a great time. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Now time for tonight‘s “Joe Schmoe.”

It comes out of Cincinnati, where a 36-year-old man was arrested for using racial slurs and threatening to punch a black cab driver.  But he came before a black judge, who gave him a choice.  He could go jail for 30 days or attend a black church for six weeks.  He chose the church for six weeks.  We will see if it works. 

That‘s it for tonight‘s show. 

“THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON” starts right now. 

Tucker, what is the situation?

CARLSON:  Joe, have fun in church.  Thanks. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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