Guests: Jeffrey Morrow, Norman Miller, Wendy Murphy, Peter Mansour
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, all eyes are on Dr. Henry Lee. I was there for his big investigation on board the cruise ship where a honeymooner vanished. Tonight, we have exclusive details as to what he found. Could it break the case?
And you‘re innocent until proven guilty, as long as you‘re not a dog. Tonight, one dog lover tells me why he‘s taking his pooch‘s case to the courts.
But first, we begin tonight with an interesting twist in the Natalee Holloway case. Aruban authorities are taking now their investigation into Natalee‘s disappearance to her home state of Alabama. Right now, they are talking to some of the students who may have been with Natalee the night that she suddenly vanished back in May.
LIVE AND DIRECT right now is Mike Royer with NBC station WVTM in Birmingham, Alabama. Mike, what‘s happening there?
MIKE ROYER, WVTM-TV: Rita, after sending reporters to Aruba several times on the Natalee Holloway case, the investigation, the case itself has now come here to Alabama, as Aruban investigators have come to Alabama to continue their investigation, and as they say, try to tie up some loose ends. Those investigators will use Alabama, and specifically Birmingham, as their home base. But they‘re going to travel about, finding students that were with Natalee Holloway on that senior trip to Aruba last summer.
The investigators will travel to several universities in our area, some close by—for example, about 40 down the road in Tuscaloosa, at the University of Alabama—interviewing student there that attended or went on that trip to Aruba. They‘ll also go to Auburn University, about two-and-a-half hours down the road. And though they‘ll be in Alabama, they‘ll also travel about four hours to the northeast, to Knoxville, Tennessee, where they‘ll interview students at the University of Tennessee. There are about 18 to 20 interviews scheduled.
The investigators expect to be here 10 days to two weeks, and they‘ll take all of that information and put it all together and, hopefully, come up with some answers. Of course, the family, the city of Mountain Brook, which is just adjacent here to Birmingham, hoping that possibly closure will come from all of this. Today we talked to some folks in the Mountain Brook area who have been following this case from day one, and the consensus from the folks we talked to today, Rita, is an attitude that it‘s about time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAROLYN GREEN, MOUNTAIN BROOK RESIDENT: It‘s about time they came and did something because they haven‘t done anything in Aruba! They need to do something here. It‘s about time, really!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROYER: That sound bite, as we call it, from a lady that we talked to today here in Birmingham. Frustration from folks in Mountain Brook, who have wondered all along why this case hasn‘t been solved. And we talked to Beth Twitty, too, and I know you‘ll be talking to her soon, continued hope that the next piece of evidence will be the piece that will finally put something together. Beth Twitty has told us that she‘s hopeful that some arrests will finally be made, and maybe for the family and for the city of Mountain Brook and for everyone that‘s following this case, there‘ll be some closure.
We‘ll continue to follow this story here, of course, Rita, and follow those investigators around, and we‘ll get back to you and let you know what, if anything, we learn from them as they conduct their interviews here.
COSBY: All right, Mike. Thank you very much.
So why are Aruban investigators coming to Alabama? As you heard from Mike, we have Natalee‘s mom, Beth Holloway Twitty. Beth, what‘s your reaction to what‘s happening now?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S MOTHER: Well, you know, I—we‘ve know that they were trying to arrange this for some time now. Looks like they‘ve made it happen. And you know, I think what they‘re trying to do is just close some holes in some of the statements that they‘ve said that some of the students gave.
But you know, Rita, all along, I think they‘ve had all the information that they‘ve needed to go forward and press charges against these individuals. I mean, they knew the condition Natalee was in. They have admissions of the suspects to sexual assaults they committed against her. But you know, if they feel that this is the last necessary step in order to firm up the foundation to proceed forward, then, you know, the students have always been willing to come forward and help.
COSBY: What do you think they could say? Is there something that maybe, you know, talking to them face to face, that they could glean that they didn‘t get? I understand all the other ones, Beth, were done over the phone before.
TWITTY: You know, Rita, I don‘t have any idea. I really think that they‘ve had all the information that they‘ve needed all along. But you know, if they think they need to wrap up two or three more issues concerning that last night at Carlos and Charlie‘s, then so do it and then let‘s move on. And you know, Congressman Bachus is optimistic that once they take these necessary steps that they feel they have to, that they are just laying a firmer foundation to proceed forward in the investigation that could lead to a prosecution. So just going to have to believe that that is what‘s going to happen.
COSBY: Bet, what did these students tell you? I‘m sure you‘ve talked to them, you know, since everything happened with Natalee. What have they said in terms of what her state of mind was, what they saw with Joran, what they saw with Deepak that night?
TWITTY: Well, as far as Natalee‘s state of mind, Rita, I think it‘s been clear since the beginning. We knew that there was a lot—you know, they were drinking, of course, and everyone knew the condition that Natalee was in when these suspects took her. And you know, they‘ve never tried to hide anything like that. And I know it was very chaotic that night when they were leaving Carlos and Charlie‘s.
And secondly, Joran Van Der Sloot really befriended these kids. I mean, he was among them for a period of two days, you know, in the casinos with them, in Carlos and Charlie‘s with them. So you know, they really have—you know, he really not only took Natalee, but I mean, he took the entire group. And you know, he robbed them of everything that is dear to them, Rita.
COSBY: Where are these investigations going to take place, Beth? I understand different colleges, right, because they‘re in several places.
TWITTY: Right. There are four different universities, I believe, that they will be travelling to. And you know, I think that the interviews are going well with the students. Like I said, they‘ve always been willing to do whatever they can, Rita. They, too, need a resolution in this. And you know, they‘re just ready to do anything the officials ask of them. And hopefully, we can put this to rest and then move forward in the investigation with the suspects.
COSBY: You bet. You know, (INAUDIBLE) you also heard about chaperones, Beth, early on. Do we know some of the adults who were down there? Are they going to be requestioned again?
TWITTY: I have not heard anything about the chaperones being questioned, just some select students that I think were there probably around closing time at Carlos and Charlie‘s.
COSBY: You know, how do you students feel, Beth? I mean, is it—do you feel comfortable that they are being questioned again? Do you think it‘s fair that they have to go through this again? Don‘t you think they should be looking elsewhere?
TWITTY: Well, Rita, what concerns me is I hate to subject these young
these young students to, you know, reopening these wounds again, you know, eight months later. I can‘t imagine the officials not just having—
I mean, they just—I hope this is so warranted to subject them to this again, Rita. I just—you know, I have to believe that. I can‘t imagine dragging them back through this without really knowing that it‘s going to lead towards firming up this investigation and going after the true suspects, Rita. It has to.
COSBY: And do you have any sense that they are closer? I know that they‘re doing these searches at the sand dunes. Do you get any sense that they‘ve got something that they‘re holding onto and that this might be a final little piece of the puzzle, we all pray?
TWITTY: Well, you know, I really—you know, I just have to remain so guarded. I know that Congressman Bachus, though, is—he is very optimistic, though, that, you know, something will come out of this, that they just need to wrap up a few issues in order to proceed further in the investigation. And I believe there were one if not two witnesses that came forward with some information that warranted the search of the sand dunes. So it looks like things are moving and—you know, but again, I just try to remain so guarded, Rita.
COSBY: I can understand why. You know, Beth, are they keeping you informed, Aruban investigators? Are they doing a better job of at least letting you know where things stand?
TWITTY: Well, I‘ve turned all that over to John Quinlan (ph) Kelly. You know, he is the one who receives all the communication now from the prosecuting attorney and the chief of police, and you know, he updates me as necessary. And you know, I am just not, you know, trying to make—I‘m not initiating any of those contacts. I‘m just relying on him to, you know, bridge that communication for us and just keep us aware of what‘s going on.
COSBY: And Beth, are investigators going to be talking to you in the States? And are you going to be sitting in on any of these interviews?
TWITTY: Oh, no, I won‘t be involved in them at all, Rita. And you know, it‘s just not necessary for me to be there. The FBI is there with the students and with the Aruban officials, so I feel good about that. And I know that it‘s being handled through the proper chain of command with the FBI there.
COSBY: I‘m glad to see at least they‘re doing something, Beth. Thank you very much. We appreciate you being on with us and hope that they do get some resolution coming up soon. Thank you.
TWITTY: Thank you.
COSBY: Thanks.
And now that investigators are questioning Natalee‘s friends—these are the Aruban investigators—what should they ask them, and how do they get them to reveal something to help them crack this case? LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt and also former New York City police detective Pat Brosnan.
Pat, let me start with you. What do you ask these kids? It‘s been eight months.
PATRICK BROSNAN, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Well, you know, Rita, what you want to do is you want to actually walk them through chronologically, from the time that they landed on the island until they left because they may have heard something, they may have saw something that to them is not relevant, but in the totality of the case, it could be extremely pertinent. And that‘s something that could be that they heard themself or they heard through third party hearsay. All these little facts, all these little snippets of data could, when combined together, change the landscape as it relates to the case.
I think it‘s extremely important that these individuals are debriefed. And from a cost-benefit analysis, the cost is traumatizing them after eight months to a horrific event. But the potential benefit, in my view, certainly outstrips that.
COSBY: You know, Clint, what could they say? You know, hitting on what Pat said, maybe there is something...
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER, MSNBC ANALYST: Sure.
COSBY: ... that Aruban investigators, now that we know more details of the case, you know, state of mind...
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
COSBY: ... something somebody was wearing that might be missing...
VAN ZANDT: Sure. Well, you know, first let‘s back up a little bit, Rita. Number one, most, if not all of these young men and women have already been interviewed by the FBI. They‘ve already provided the timeline. They‘ve already been locked in one time on a statement.
So for the Aruban authorities to come over here—you know, I agree with Beth. Do what you got to do to go back at the original suspects. But Rita, the Aruban authorities, the police, they‘re—you know, they‘re are being given a lot more latitude than the FBI ever was. Here we invite them over. They come to the United States. We put an FBI agent with them. They‘re allowed to go out and interview these students who were on the trip. That‘s a lot more than the FBI was allowed to do in Aruba with the original suspects.
COSBY: You bring up a great point. You know, it is amazing that they‘re able to come over here, do all this. Pat, what about the face-to-face opportunity? Because my understand is, at least when the Aruban folks talked to these kids before, it was very brief. Remember, they left the island quickly because it was the end of their trip. And they did it on the phone with them also.
BROSNAN: Absolutely.
COSBY: Is this something different? You can look in their eyes and see something different?
BROSNAN: I think it‘s a very significant investigative tool, the prospect of having a face-to-face debriefing, face-to-face interrogation, interview of these individuals. First of all, they were whisked off the island very quickly, very expeditiously, and in my view, from a situation where one of their own didn‘t travel with them, where it could have been viewed as a potential crime scene. So the face-to-face at this juncture, where many facts have changed, many times the landscape has shifted as it relates to the totality of circumstances, is very critical. I think it‘s awesome. Why wouldn‘t you do it?
COSBY: You know, Pat, where do you think it spins off, off of this? Should they talk to the chaperones also ? Those are the adults who were supposed to be accompanying these kids.
BROSNAN: Absolutely because as we‘ve see with eyewitness and ear witness accounts, even from that night or actually that morning, from individuals who were in the ladies‘ room, where Natalee was last seen when she was sick, and then backtracking to the time that she landed there, and then prior days, where she developed a relationship of sorts, allegedly, with one of the suspects—all these facts or all these conjectural facts have to be examined in the light of eight months later with everything else that has been developed in the interim. I think it‘s extremely important.
COSBY: Pat, thank you very much. Clint, stick with us. And everybody, we‘re going to keep you posted if these interviews shed any light on the Holloway case.
And coming up, some new details in the investigation, another one that we‘ve been following closely, that of George Smith. Take a look.
Still ahead: Is there a breakthrough in the investigation into missing honeymooner George Smith?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: I did found something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Does the canopy hold the clue to solving the mystery? We‘ve learned exclusive details about the potentially big clue Dr. Henry Lee found. You‘ll only see it here LIVE AND DIRECT.
And a shocking story, a mother and her baby found dead inside their home. Police want to ask her husband what he knows. But get this. He‘s been missing—that is, until now.
And when man‘s best friend is sentenced to death, man takes the case to court. Will he get due process for his pooch? It‘s coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE: I did found something, OK, but I cannot tell you what we found.
We did found something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And tonight, some exclusive details in the case of missing honeymooner George Smith. Noted forensic scientist Dr. Henry Lee may have discovered something significant yesterday while investigating the ship that Smith disappeared from last July. We‘ve learned there was something unusual about the canopy where it‘s believed Smith‘s body fell onto, where they found that bloodstain the day he was reported missing.
I asked Dr. Henry Lee about this exclusive information.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: Dr. Lee, I understand you found out that the canopy was scraped somehow. What does that suggest to you?
LEE: We don‘t know that scrape or damage, and this canopy interesting
because the rest of the area is pretty in perfect shape in those area and -
but I cannot, you know, discuss my finding at this moment because it‘s still actively investigative case. We‘re going to...
COSBY: What did it look like, Dr. Lee? Was it a big area in your sense? And could it be significant?
LEE: Well, you are very sharp lady. And (INAUDIBLE) area on there, but I cannot tell you exactly location, what the size of it.
COSBY: And this was out on the canopy. You—I guess—does that -
what are some of the options, though, just in general terms, Dr. Lee?
What—what are some of the things that...
(CROSSTALK)
LEE: ... have to—that‘s a lot of missing piece of information here. I really cannot reach a so-called theory (INAUDIBLE) hypothesis, which we have to found out whether or not cruise ship members or crew did anything or not or any photographs show prior to the incident already have some damage on it. That‘s why we interested to get the Turkish police photograph or FBI or any other prior examination because when I examine the scene, it‘s almost six to seven months later.
COSBY: Talked about the canopy. I understand that there was some biological evidence, some blood found on the canopy. What could that indicate, at this point, to you?
LEE: Well, we want to found some possible biological evidence, and we want to know, of course, how much blood on the canopy.
COSBY: Will it say something if it turns out to be George Smith‘s blood? Does that change anything, or does that just sort of add and just exacerbate on the story?
LEE: Well, the George—those—that‘s just part of the story, the identification of the blood. Of course, that‘s—if we found (INAUDIBLE) George‘s blood, which just confirm.
But as I indicate to you, any investigation, the crime scene is so important. If we can estimate the volume, then that will give us clue how much bleeding, what type of injury caused such much of a (INAUDIBLE) transfer. And of course, we did not do the mannequin experiment. Initially, we want to test it out. If a nature (ph) fall or somebody push or somebody being pick up and threw over the railing, where most likely landed. But this experiment wasn‘t conduct. And of course, a lot of people think this experiment doesn‘t mean anything because we did not use a live subject. But with forensic work, people in the field, we know that it‘s impossible to use a live subject. If we want to do the pushing 10 times, you need 10 victim, volunteer to do that.
COSBY: Right! That‘s awfully hard to find. You know, in fact...
LEE: And we‘re going to kill a lot of people, and hard to find those people.
COSBY: Hard to find volunteers on that. You know, Bill Wright with Royal Caribbean—we asked him about that afterwards. Why didn‘t he allow you? You know, why not just give you full access? This is what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL WRIGHTS, ROYAL CARIBBEAN SENIOR VP FLEET OPERATIONS: The only issue with the mannequin experiment was that the request came very late, as recently as last week. The ship is in service. We will be disembarking and embarking approximately 5,000 passengers today. And that type of a demonstration or an experiment in this public setting we just felt was not appropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now, Dr. Lee, they did say that they‘re going to allow you to do it on another boat, like, sort of a similar boat in a few weeks. Are you going to take them up on that?
LEE: Of course, if we have the opportunity, I‘m sure we probably work with the cruise ship and—because this is an area we want to know. Is this predictable or unpredictable if somebody sits on the railing just fall because, as you know, the canopy, it‘s not flat. It‘s actually like a peak in the center. So if it landed inside, more likely the body going to stay inside of the cruise ship. If landed outside, more likely go to slip (INAUDIBLE) So we have to look at (INAUDIBLE) try to do couple of times, see what the most likely position, use some statistical data, try to see can we predict (ph) anything.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: So what could damage on the canopy mean, or a scrape there? Joining me now is former FBI investigator Clint Van Zandt, who was with me in Miami yesterday, watching Dr. Lee‘s investigation firsthand with me. And also, forensic expert Dr. Larry Kobilinsky. He‘s a professor of science at John Jay College.
Dr. Kobilinsky, what could this mean about what happened to George Smith? Let‘s walk through first if it‘s a scrape, if there‘s a scrape or a scratch on the canopy, and the rest of the place looks pretty good.
DR. LARRY KOBILINSKY, JOHN JAY COLLEGE: Well, it‘s very important information. As Dr. Lee said, any kind of additional information is very important in reconstructing the events. Now, the balcony was at such a height that one could probably not simply fall over. The likelihood, given all of that blood on the canopy, is that he was thrown over. And the balcony, of course, has a great deal of blood. You can see one area in particular where there‘s an extensive amount of bleeding. So the likelihood is that when George Smith fell—don‘t forget, he‘s 6 foot, 2 inches, 210 pounds—he probably not only deformed the surface of the canopy, but bled extensively in a particular area.
Now, from there on in, the question is, Did he roll off the canopy or was he pushed off the canopy? If there‘s a scrape mark within that blood area, it‘s a possibility that he was literally pushed overboard. So a lot of this—a lot of this evidence has to be combined with what we already know. Dr. Lee is absolutely correct in getting those photographs when the Turkish police arrived at the scene so that we can determine when that scrape mark was made. And then we can put the whole thing together.
COSBY: You know, Clint, what do you think, too? I think this is pretty interesting. You and I were talking when we were looking at the ship, and we could see Dr. Lee, and saying, He keeps looking at that canopy. And we‘ve learned now that there was a scrape or a dent, but something, obviously, that stood out to him that he believes didn‘t look like the rest of the canopy.
VAN ZANDT: Yes. Well, you know, Larry makes two different points, and it could be number one. He used the term “thrown over.” You know, would one, two, three suspects pick George Smith up and hurl him, throw him over the edge—you‘re looking right there—over that rail? How would he land? Or if he sat up on there—we know there was a chair pushed up against the edge of that rail, so...
COSBY: And we‘re looking at a picture (INAUDIBLE) The only thing is, Clint, the chair is very low.
VAN ZANDT: It is. It is. You pointed that out to me yesterday, and you were absolutely right. I mean, it would still be a step up, but it wouldn‘t necessarily, you know, support you. So you‘d have to step on that and still kind of put your hands on there and hop up, if you were going sit on there. And then if you fell backwards—you know, we‘re still at the point, Rita, we still don‘t know if this was a foul play or if this was an accident.
You know, depending—and you know, Larry can probably answer this. Depending if he fell head first or elbow first or something like that, you might get an indentation into this thin-gauge steel, and perhaps that would indicate something to Larry or the good doctor here.
COSBY: Larry, go ahead.
KOBILINSKY: Yes, Clint, let me just say this, that regardless of how he fell—head first, elbow first—the extensive amount of bleeding is a sign that the trauma occurred before the body hit that canopy.
COSBY: Now, Larry, you absolutely believe that, right, because I think you‘re one of the best in the business.
KOBILINSKY: I absolutely believe that there was some incident, perhaps a stabbing of some sort. The bleeding was quite extensive. The body was on that canopy for a period of time. I don‘t know how much. There was extensive bleeding in one area. Presumably that is the part of the body that suffered the trauma. I wonder whether the heart was still pumping at that point. And from there in, the experimentation that Dr. Lee was talking about is very important because that‘s the only way to truly reconstruct the events, by doing this kind of experimentation.
COSBY: And you guys, let me show you also—these are a couple of the other things that Dr. Lee said to me, other elements of things that he‘s looking for, in addition to, we also understand—we just heard that looks like he got some blood or there was something on the canopy. And I‘m going to ask you both about that. But he wants to examine the crime scene, look at all the physical evidence, wants to also look at the surveillance tapes to see sort of who came in and out of that room. It doesn‘t sound like there was a surveillance camera, from what we garnered, looking at the canopy, but maybe at least to see who was going down the corridors and maybe coming in and out of the room. The room key would also say that.
Larry, all these things could be significant to know who went in, who went out, right?
KOBILINSKY: There‘s no doubt. This is classic crime scene 101. You have to follow the footsteps from the time George Smith was in the casino and the disco and then on to the room. You‘ve got to document the crime scene. There‘s a laser device now for making very sophisticated measurements, determining where the furniture was. All of these measurements are very critical. And then you look—you have a search for trace evidence. In this case, blood because that‘s what‘s important. You‘re looking for blood spatter, some evidence of real trauma, perhaps droplets on the ceiling, on the walls, under the carpet, all of this stuff. Even six, seven months later, you can find this stuff with good testing.
COSBY: Well, let‘s hope we get some answers. Guys, both of you, thank you very much. Very much.
And still ahead, everybody, shocking video of women caught on hidden camera in their underwear. What‘s even more shocking is where they were caught and who was doing the filming.
And next: A mother and her baby found dead in their home. The father was missing. Wait until you hear where they found him just a short bit ago. That‘s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Late developments tonight in a shocking double-murder in a small town. Rachel Entwistle died from a gunshot wound to the head and her baby daughter, Lillian, died from a shot to the abdomen this weekend. Their autopsy results were just released a few hours ago.
Also, police have finally come into contact with the man that they say is a person of interest in the case, Neil Entwistle, Rachel Entwistle‘s husband and the father of the baby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are involved in pursuing him as a person of interest. It is helpful that we have found him and that we are in touch with him, but what we are going to do next, I‘m just not going to comment on at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining me now is reporter Norman Miller with the “Metro West Daily News.” It‘s a division of the “Boston Herald.”
Norman, how did they locate these two bodies to begin with? Tell us -
bring us up-to-speed.
NORMAN MILLER, “METRO WEST DAILY NEWS”: Well, there was a dinner party scheduled for this past Saturday. Friends and family showed up. There was no one home. The next day, they still couldn‘t get a hold of them, so the friends and family called the police, went there just for a routine well-being check, and that‘s when they found the mother and child.
COSBY: And there wasn‘t a lot of blood, right? At first, what, they thought it was carbon monoxide, Norman?
MILLER: The district attorney termed it to as little to none, so...
COSBY: They just located—we just heard in the last little bit right before the show—that they located Rachel‘s husband. What can you tell us about him?
MILLER: Well, he‘s an unemployed computer worker. He works in the IT field. He‘s originally from England. He met his wife in England.
COSBY: Is there any suspicion—you know, they call him a person of interest. Of course, they‘ve got to be very careful. What do we know about where he was or wasn‘t at the time? What‘s his alibi?
MILLER: They haven‘t really said. All they said, that he began to travel on Friday. They didn‘t say where he went at the time. They haven‘t really gone into a lot of details on that, as of yet.
COSBY: Give us a sense of the community. We hear it‘s a beautiful community, lovely family, right? And they just moved into the home?
MILLER: Yes, they just moved there about less than two weeks ago. It‘s a nice, small community. It‘s where the Boston Marathon starts. It‘s probably about 40 minutes from Boston. Not a lot of crime in the area.
COSBY: What do we know about if it was an intruder, forced entry?
Have you heard anything on those points, Norman?
MILLER: No report of forced entry. They had no idea that anyone—there‘s no evidence of someone forcing their way into the house.
COSBY: And what do we know about the mother? What do we know about Rachel? What‘s her background?
MILLER: She‘s actually a graduate of Holy Cross out of Worcester.
She was a teacher in England. She‘s from southeastern Mass, 27 years old.
And this is their first child together.
COSBY: And what are do we know about the relationship between the two? Because, of course, looking at him as a person of interest, was there any problem, any friction in the marriage, in the family?
MILLER: No one had said anything like that. The district attorney at our press conference yesterday said there was no indication that there has been any marital problems. I personally haven‘t spoken to any family members, parents of the mother, the victim, obviously, too distraught to talk at the moment.
COSBY: Norman, keep us posted. What a sad story. Thank you very much.
And now let me bring in former prosecutor Wendy Murphy. She‘s very familiar with this area in Massachusetts because she works as a prosecutor for the Middlesex County district attorney‘s office.
Wendy, first of all, the fact that they first thought it was carbon monoxide it sounds like and it turns out that it was gunshot wounds. That‘s a pretty big difference. What kind of weapon? Do we know what was used?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Yes, well, it‘s unclear what size gun was used. But if it wasn‘t carbon monoxide poisoning—and it appears that it wasn‘t at this point—although that‘s a reasonable guess when there‘s no blood at the scene—then I think the only other answer is that it‘s a very small weapon. So it‘s a bullet that wouldn‘t create a lot of trauma at the entry point. And so the bleeding—believe me, there was profuse bleeding if they both died, but the bleeding would all be inside the bodies.
COSBY: Yes, it‘s interesting that investigators didn‘t see that, it doesn‘t sound like, if, you know, first—the other thing we just heard from Norman, Wendy, is that no sign of forced entry. That obviously leads you to the, quote, “person of interest,” the husband, and someone familiar with the house, right?
MURPHY: Yes, I mean, you know, look, person of interest is a nice phrase. It‘s a buzzword that clearly suggests to me that he‘s a suspect. I actually am involved in a homicide investigation with this office as a private attorney. And they won‘t even use that phrase with my guy, and I think my guy is the suspect in a murder case, as well.
So that‘s strong language coming from this office. To call him a person of interest means that they really are suspicious about him. And, look, this was a woman who apparently hasn‘t been heard from since Friday. Whether he was, quote, unquote, “traveling” or not, which everyone is suggesting, you know, might mean that‘s some kind of innocent explanation, here‘s a guy who apparently did not report that he wasn‘t having any contact with his wife.
And so why didn‘t he miss her enough to call police and say, “I‘m concerned”? “Can you do one of these checks at the house?” It appears that that phone call was made by somebody other than the husband, suggesting he wasn‘t traveling, he was running.
COSBY: And then, on the other hand, Wendy, they were supposed to have this dinner party, it sounds like, for friends and family to come over. It‘s not a very good alibi if he just happens to not be there and his wife and child are dead.
MURPHY: Yes, I mean, maybe he wasn‘t going to be part of the dinner party. I‘m giving him the benefit of that doubt. But it‘s clear he wasn‘t missing the conversation with his wife, if in fact she was dead as early as Saturday, because he didn‘t call police wondering about the well-being of his wife, someone else did.
I mean, look, it may be that, from what we know, there are no reports of domestic violence, but I would be shocked if, once the truth starts to come out about this, there have been no, quote, unquote, “problems” in the marriage.
COSBY: Let me bring in Norman Miller into the conversation. Norman, you‘re still with us, right? Is there any background? Have you heard anything about any history between this couple, any domestic violence?
MILLER: There has been no report of it. The district attorney was asked about it yesterday at the press conference. She said they had spoken to family members, and there‘s no indication that they have had had marital problems or any allegations of domestic abuse in the past.
COSBY: And, Norman, how did they track down the husband? I understand they also found his car, right, the BMW?
MILLER: They haven‘t said how they did that. They haven‘t said how they located the car or the husband.
COSBY: What‘s the sense you‘re getting, Norman, from covering the story? Are they looking at other suspects, too, or seems—everything, you know, as Wendy just suggested, you know, I‘ve covered a lot of crime cases for a long time, usually when you say it‘s a person of interest, it‘s a pretty strong statement.
MILLER: I think it‘s too early in the investigation to say. I think they‘re keeping it close to the vest at the moment, just waiting to see how the investigation turns out before they really going into a lot of details.
COSBY: Wendy, where do you think it goes? Yes?
MURPHY: Well, I just wanted to remind everybody that, according to all the people involved in both sides of the Scott Peterson case, in terms of both Laci‘s and Scott‘s family, the early reports were that they had no domestic struggles or problems, either. And look what happened there.
I think what we‘re going to hear is that he really didn‘t have a reason to travel to England. I think what we‘re going to hear is that he doesn‘t have an alibi. And, frankly, you know, once you start to mount those kinds of suspicions, he may well take the Fifth and hire a criminal defense attorney, which can‘t be used against him in a court of law, but you can damn well bet it‘s going to be used against him in the court of public opinion.
COSBY: All right, both of you, thank you very much. We will stay on this. Thank you.
MILLER: Thank you.
COSBY: And still ahead, a man whose dog was sentenced to die is fighting to keep his pet alive. Tonight, a court ruled his dog didn‘t get a fair shake. But find out why this dogfight may not be over and may be going to the state Supreme Court.
And amazing video of a man who ends up with a big fish tale. Did he catch more than he could handle? I‘ll ask him. He‘s coming up. Watch this video. This is amazing!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: A big dogfight tonight between a pet owner trying to save his dog‘s life and the courts. Peter Mansour fought a legal battle to overturn his dog, Maxine‘s, death sentence and won, for now. But the fight could end up going all the way to the state Supreme Court.
You‘re looking at now Maxine on the screen. There she is in action.
And it all started after Maxine allegedly injured a neighbor‘s cat to the point that it had to be euthanized. Mansour was ordered to either move Maxine or have her euthanized, as well. But the court of appeals later decided to overturn the sentence because they thought Mansour‘s right to defend Maxine was violated. What an interesting case.
And joining me now is Peter Mansour and the now very, very famous Maxine.
Peter, first of all, congratulations on your victory. Were you surprised...
PETER MANSOUR, DOG OWNER: Yes, thanks...
COSBY: ... that, first of all, they were even giving you that ultimatum?
MANSOUR: That‘s really when it kind of hit me. I kind of waited for my time to tell the story and waited for the due process to happen. And then, all of a sudden, I got this notice. And realized that they were just going to tell me what to do rather than actually listen to what the evidence was.
COSBY: You know, in the notice, they basically said Maxine, who I think looks very beautiful and serene there, but they said that she has, quote, “vicious propensities.” Is she a vicious, out-of-control dog? Are we seeing the soft side now?
MANSOUR: This is about as crazy as she gets. She‘s a pretty mellow dog. She‘s been around a lot of different kinds of animals, birds, cats. My fiancee has a paraplegic dog that she works with just fine. So, no, she‘s not vicious in the least.
COSBY: And what did she do to that cat? Is she responsible for what happened to that cat?
MANSOUR: You know, I don‘t believe she was. She was found barking at a cat that was injured on the ground. My housekeeper then approached her, and she continued barking. And then when the housekeeper got close enough, she stopped barking, and picked the cat up briefly and put it down. And that‘s all we know.
COSBY: What do you think happened to the cat? I read somewhere that you thought maybe the cat actually got hit by a garbage truck, something other than Maxine‘s.
MANSOUR: Well, it did suffer pelvic injuries, which is more in line with somebody that—with an animal that got hit by a car. And it was garbage day, and it was near the garbage on the sidewalk.
COSBY: Now, this may not be over for you and Maxine. The district attorney, the King County attorney, is saying that may appeal. Do you think it‘s over with? And are you willing to fight this all the way, if it goes to the state Supreme Court, for Maxine?
MANSOUR: I‘m willing to fight it all the way. I actually think it‘s a due process issue. And that‘s why I fought it. I have no problem moving out of the county, but it‘s just—to me, they‘ve already agreed that the process needed tightening up. They cannot just make accusations like this without any due process, because it really inflicts my constitutional rights as a property owner. Forget the fact that she‘s a family member. And so I‘m willing to fight it as long as it takes.
COSBY: And she looks like she wants to leave you there, unfortunately. Peter, as you get Maxine back in, how much has this whole thing cost you, too, in legal fights? This has been a lot of money, right?
MANSOUR: Well, yes, in the neighborhood of about $10,000. But the way I‘m look at it is that it‘s not just this dog I‘m saving. I think a lot of other dogs are going to come into play here, and I‘m actually shocked that this has never become an issue before.
COSBY: Yes, how is Maxine holding up? And have you noticed the stress on her through this whole ordeal?
MANSOUR: She‘s had her picture taken a lot over the last couple days, and I don‘t think she‘s thrilled about that.
COSBY: She‘s being shy. I see her turning her head to the camera.
MANSOUR: Yes, she‘s trying to look out the window here.
COSBY: If it comes to it, do you have to bring her also into court?
MANSOUR: They won‘t let me bring her into court, so I haven‘t been able to do that.
COSBY: And, Peter, where do you see this ending up, finally? What do you see sort of ahead for you and your beautiful-looking dog?
MANSOUR: Well, I‘m hoping this is the end of it. I think it was really good for the state what happened. I‘d be shocked if the prosecutor‘s office would want to waste taxpayer money to go much further. I think where it ended up is good for them and good for dog owners, as well.
COSBY: All right. Well, we‘ll be watching closely. Give Maxine our best there.
MANSOUR: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you very much for being with us.
And there‘s a lot more coming up here tonight. Let‘s check in with Joe Scarborough now with a preview of “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.” Any animals on the show tonight, Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: No, absolutely not, but it‘s the story of my life, always following a dog show. Thank you, Rita.
Tonight in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY,” we‘re going to be talking about how the American media machine is already starting to get itself whipped up in preparation for promoting a new movie that‘s going to be coming out based on a book that says Jesus was married, Christianity is based on a pack of lies, and the Catholic Church is run by a blood-thirsty sect.
I‘m, of course, talking about “The Da Vinci Code.” It was in the news today in a big way. And it‘s going to be the blockbuster of 2006. And you can bet it‘s going to bring a lot of controversy along with it with Christians that, well, just don‘t like being classified as idiots. That and much more, including Oprah Winfrey in the crosshairs, tonight in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”
COSBY: We‘ll be tuning in, in just a few minutes, Joe. Thanks so much.
SCARBOROUGH: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: And still ahead, video of victims of video voyeurism who don‘t even know that they‘re caught in their own bathrooms on hidden camera. Wait until you here who planted the cameras.
And amazing video of a man‘s big fish fight. He‘ll tell me how he manages this incredible catch without a hook, line, or sinker. It is coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Tonight, a peeping tom case that seems upside down. Cops in Parker, Florida, say they have caught a man who is taking video of women inside their own homes. But tonight, it‘s the victims that police are searching for. Dana Arquilla of NBC station WJHG in Panama City, Florida, has the details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA ARQUILLA, REPORTER, WJHG (voice-over): This is just one of 14 women Parker police are trying to identify from these videotapes. The women had no idea there was a camera planted in the bathtub, set at just the right angle to capture her in the bathroom mirror.
They say the man responsible for planting the tiny cameras is the townhouse owner, William Judson McDevitt. Some of McDevitt‘s tenants at the Cherry Lane townhouses broke the case last month when they noticed wires leaving from their homes to storage sheds in the back of the complex.
Parker police searched several units and found tiny cameras hidden everywhere, in ceilings, in vents, in bath tubes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bingo. There is one there.
ARQUILLA: Police released one of dozens of tapes they confiscated from McDevitt‘s home, hoping to identify the victims and contact them about pressing charges against McDevitt. The tapes were shot in Apartments 116, 124 and 139 at Cherry Lane.
Identifying any of the victims could move the case forward, could lead to more charges against McDevitt, and victims could file civil suits. As for McDevitt, he was arrested last week on the two misdemeanor counts on video voyeurism, posted $1,000 bond, and is free tonight. He has refused our request for an interview about these tapes or any of the other items police discovered in any of the Cherry Lane townhouses he owns.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And that was Dana Arquilla. And, again, if you recognize any of the women on that video, police in Parker, Florida, want to hear from you tonight.
Still ahead, a barehanded fight that you have to see to believe. No fish tales here. The attorney on this tape gives me the truth and nothing but the truth. That‘s coming up, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Forget about a rod and reel. One Florida lawyer has one heck of a fish tale to tell after catching a marlin with his bare hands. Take a look at this. Jeffrey Murrow was 40 miles off the coast of Guatemala when he got into a kayak and grabbed this marlin with his hands. Friends of his caught the entire incident on tape from their boat nearby.
LIVE & DIRECT right tonight is the man you see on the (INAUDIBLE) videotape, Jeffrey Murrow.
Jeffrey, what were you thinking? You get this enormous fish, and you‘re in a kayak?
JEFFREY MORROW, CAUGHT SAILFISH WITH HIS BARE HANDS: Well, I wouldn‘t
I was thinking, “Now, why did I do this in the first place?”
(LAUGHTER)
I had planned to do it—we caught several, in fact. And we had a lot of fun. It was just an amazing experience, one of the most exciting forms of fishing you could ever imagine.
COSBY: Yes, what was it like to reel in that big, huge fish? What was it—just emotionally? And how did it feel? I mean, it must have been just such a rush!
MURROW: I‘ll tell you, there was a lot of emotions, because your eye literally locks with the fish‘s eye, because you‘re so close to the fish. It‘s not like normal fishing.
You can actually feel the fright of the fish as he jumps, and you can feel, I mean, heat waves off of him. And your adrenaline‘s just pumping in. And I mean, I was so amazed by the whole experience. I was—the adrenaline is—makes you real strong. And however, in terms of reeling the fish in, this fish drug me. I didn‘t do much reeling. It drug me for 3 ½ miles.
COSBY: Now, how far did it pull you? How far?
MURROW: Three and a half miles.
COSBY: Oh, my god. Were you scared?
MURROW: Yes, I was just as scared as the fish.
COSBY: How long did it take for you to finally reel the fish in?
MURROW: About over an hour or so. And the second fish was even funnier. Homer Bliss (ph), another lawyer, reeled that one in. And he got far from the boat, and we had to catch up to him in the big boat. So that was a funny experience.
COSBY: You know, we‘re looking at this. This is the sail fish. It‘s got a big bill. First of all, were you nervous about grabbing the bill? And then did it poke you? Did it hurt you? It looks sharp.
MURROW: Yes, they‘ve killed people before. They‘ve drug people underwater. There‘s a big story off of North Carolina where it drug this New Jersey man or a Connecticut man underwater, killed him. And then there‘s a story off Miami, the same thing happened.
So they‘re powerful fish. So I knew that. So I wanted to wear the fish out. I‘ve done this before several times with big tarp and 130-pound tarp and off the coast of Jacksonville.
And you—you have to, you know, not get in a rush. You have to wait for the fish to wear out. And then, when he‘s calm enough, then you can release the fish. All of these fish were released alive, uninjured, and they‘re fine. We caught a—we were in an actually—were in tournament while we were down there for 3 ½ days.
COSBY: Now, why did you decide to set it free? I think a lot people think that‘s terrific, but some other folks might have said, “OK, I‘m going to keep it and have it as a trophy, one of those big things on the wall.”
MURROW: That‘s taboo amongst fishermen.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: Good for you.
MURROW: Yes, these days, billfish are not killed; they‘re released. They‘re a thing of beauty. And when you see one, just you can see the footage on here. When they come out of the water, it‘s sheer magic. It‘s the glow. I mean, it‘s incredible.
COSBY: It is beautiful.
MURROW: It‘s a force of nature.
COSBY: Now, what were your friends saying when they‘re watching this? And they are—it is a beautiful animal. What were your friends saying as they‘re filming this whole thing?
MURROW: Yes, they were—well, there was a lot—we were all laughing. The guides were laughing. There‘s a guy named Kiwi from New Zealand who guided us on this trip.
COSBY: Appropriate name.
MURROW: Yes, appropriate, yes. And he was—we were all laughing—afterwards, I was laughing. I wasn‘t at the time. He was laughing. You can hear it on the tape a little bit. There‘s a longer part of the tape. I just have it condensed down for now.
COSBY: And, you know, when you came back and people saw the tape...
MURROW: Oh, yes...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: ... what did they say? Did they say you‘re a little nuts?
MURROW: By the time I got back to the dock, there were guides from Hawaii, New Zealand, South Africa and North Carolina that are some of the best fishing guides in the world were there. And they were all coming up to me, laughing, and shaking my hand, and saying, “Please come back and fish in my boat with your kayak.”
COSBY: Now, what‘s next, a big shark or a whale?
MURROW: Well, I‘ve caught shark in the kayak before, many of them, but not big ones, small black-tipped sharks, right off of Pontavidra Country Club (ph), in case anybody‘s watching, where everybody swims around, acts like nothing‘s in the water.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: So you‘re going to go back in again, right?
MURROW: Yes, oh, yes. I‘m going to fish Galapagos Islands in a couple of months for striped marlin. And these are big beasts. I may have to carve—I may have to make a shield, because stripe marlin will actually charge the boat and try to hit you. So I‘m going to try to make a Plexiglas shield if they do that.
COSBY: Well, keep us posted, Jeffrey. Thank you so much. Thanks for sharing the tape.
MURROW: Thank you.
COSBY: And that does it for us on LIVE & DIRECT. I‘m Rita Cosby.
Now to, I think, another fishermen, Joe Scarborough—Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: Hey, thanks so much, Rita. Greatly appreciate it.
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