updated 1/25/2006 11:39:18 PM ET 2006-01-26T04:39:18

Guests: Shawn Kinneps; Eric Suth; Joe Dwinell; Bob Edgar; Jason Christie; Michelle Kosinski; Jossy Mansur; John Q. Kelly; Vito Collucci; Victoria Thake

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, a new twist in our exclusive coverage of the battles at the U.S./Mexican border.  Wait until you hear who‘s helping people sneak across.  And he‘s one of the most famous winners of any reality show.  Tonight: Will Richard Hatch be forced to survive for years behind bars?  One of Hatch‘s fellow castmates is going to join me LIVE AND DIRECT to spill all on what really went on behind the scenes.

But first, we begin tonight with new information in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  LIVE AND DIRECT was the first to report just last week that Aruban police are following a new credible tip in the search for Natalee.  Tonight, we know that this new information is linked to the questioning of Natalee‘s friends that is going on right here in the United States.

LIVE AND DIRECT right now is NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski in Natalee‘s home town of Mountain Brook, Alabama—Michelle.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Hi, Rita.  That‘s right, tonight, top Aruban police confirm that they do have new information in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, new information that now makes them feel strongly, they say, about the area of the lighthouse on the island as a potential burial site.  And because of that, they say within the next week or two, they want to have a complete FBI cadaver dog team down there searching, along with Dutch investigators.

And we also know that within the next couple of weeks, volunteer searchers will be down to Aruba.  They‘re going to be searching other areas, as well.  And police say they have been getting a lot of new information in this case—surprisingly, since it has been eight months and there‘s been no sign of Natalee.  They say they get about 100 tips a week, about 10 percent of which they characterize as “interesting.”

Now, some of that new information, not necessarily related to the lighthouse, is part of the reason why they are here in the States.  In Alabama and surrounding states, they‘re going to be visiting several colleges where Natalee‘s school friends are now students.  They were interviewed already, remember, by the FBI early on in this case, but Aruban police say, Hey, at that time, the investigators just didn‘t have the benefit of this new information.  They won‘t give us too many details about it, but they say it could be significant to this case.

Here in Natalee‘s hometown of Mountain Brook, Alabama, it‘s very close-knit.  People seem to know each other.  Natalee‘s disappearance has left an emptiness.  We talked to a mother of one of her friends who may be one of the ones reinterviewed.  She says she has mixed feelings because on the one hand, it could very well help solve this case.  But at the same time, it stirs up a lot of bad feelings after these kids have had such a hard year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LISA ANDERSON, MOTHER OF NATALEE‘S FRIEND:  I think if there‘s any way it‘s going to help Beth or closure, it will be great.  I think it does stir the girls up a little more.  They‘ve had time to settle down, but they do want closure.  And they do—you know, anything that will help Beth because she has worked so hard to find her daughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSINSKI:  The Arubans say they feel pretty good about this new information that they have gotten, and they feel it may potentially be significant in building a case against those three suspects that have since been released from jail.  Back to you, Rita.

COSBY:  And Michelle, do we have any idea how long they‘re going to be in the States, how long this period of questions is going to last with the students?

KOSINSKI:  Oh, we‘ve been told by a couple sources about a week.  And today, the FBI confirmed that they should be out of the States by Friday.  And no one will give us a real number on how many students, but it‘s been said by certain authorities it would be about 20 of them.  That‘s what Natalee‘s mom also told us.  And it‘s a certain group of people, according to the Aruban police, although they wouldn‘t specify why they were singled out.  They just want to talk to them more about that night she disappeared.

COSBY:  Michelle, thanks so much.  We appreciate it.  Please keep us posted.

And we have also learned exclusively tonight what questions Aruban investigators are asking Natalee‘s friends.  Take a look at this list that you will not see anywhere else.  Investigators asked about Alabama students on the trip and what they were doing at Carlos and Charlie‘s—that‘s the bar—the night that Natalee disappeared.  Aruban police also asked the students if they recognized a new list of Aruban names.  In addition, investigators asked the students if they could describe some of the people at Carlos and Charlie‘s on May 30, that night.  Investigators showed students photos of some of the people who were at the bar the night that Natalee disappeared to see if the students recognized those individuals, as well.  And we‘re told that they were not Deepak, Satish or Joran.

Joining us now tonight to sort through some of this exclusive information is Jossy Mansur with Aruba‘s “Diario” newspaper, and also here with us is Holloway family attorney John Q. Kelly.

Jossy, let me start with you.  What do you make of this line of questions?  What do you think investigators going for?

JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, “DIARIO”:  I think that they selected the 20 candidates, more or less 20 candidates, when they went over all the questioning that the FBI had done of them.  And these 20 gave some kind of declarations that they found interesting and they want to follow up on.

COSBY:  Now, you understand there‘s something connecting the tip that we talked about on the show last week, Jossy, about the sand dunes, the lighthouse, tying to this.  Walk us through again what that original tip was that led investigators to go back to the sand dunes, back to the lighthouse.

MANSUR:  Well, in the last month, the police were very busy talking to many friends of Joran‘s that they found of interest.  And one of them apparently gave them some very, very reliable information that they‘ve been acting on.  That‘s why they‘ve been searching over at the dunes behind the lighthouse and also on the ocean, searching for a fish net.

COSBY:  And how did this tipster get that information?  Do we get a sense that he came forward or they went to him?

MANSUR:  No, they went to him.  They went to all of these friends of Joran‘s and talked to them, and they found quite a few answers that interested them.  One of these witnesses specifically gave them information that they are acting on now.

COSBY:  And that is—what your understanding is that‘s what‘s leading them also to question these girls—these boys and girls who were there at Carlos and Charlie‘s that night, correct?

MANSUR:  Yes, because they found—when they read all these declarations that they gave to the FBI, they singled out these 20 or so candidates that (INAUDIBLE) thinks are of interest and are related to what this witness said.

COSBY:  The other thing, too, Jossy, are they also looking at other nights, not just the night she went missing, but you told me right before the show that they‘re looking at, what, the Excelsior Hotel and maybe Holiday Inn some other nights?

MANSUR:  Yes, they were looking at, for example, that—it‘s been known out there that the night before Natalee disappeared, she was seen, apparently, at the Excelsior casino and the Holiday Inn and that Joran was also present.  And they‘re also very interested in finding out what the speculation is, what is fact in the getting into the car of Natalee that night, if she was forced or she went of her own volition.

COSBY:  Jossy, stick with us.  I want to bring in John.  And John, let me put up again on the screen—these are the questions that we‘ve been told that are going to be focused on with these kids.  Again, it‘s Alabama students and their actions on May 30.  The students have been asked about new Aruban names that they may not have heard before.  They‘ve been asked to describe people who may have been at Carlos and Charlie‘s the night that Natalee vanished.  And they‘ve also been shown photos of people at the bar that night.

What do you make of this line of questioning?

JOHN Q. KELLY, NATALEE‘S FAMILY‘S ATTORNEY:  It appears they‘re trying to eliminate other potential suspects, other than the three main suspects all along, Joran and the Kalpoe brothers.  If they‘re giving descriptions, showing photographs or running names by these girls, I think it‘s to try to determine whether there was possibly anybody else that might have potentially been involved in Natalee‘s disappearance.

COSBY:  Does it also look like maybe just eyewitnesses, or do you think it may be to the degree, John, that they‘re looking at other potential suspects?

KELLY:  Well, I know they‘ve always indicated that they had to run every lead down and that, you know, we shouldn‘t always just be focused on the three young men, which I don‘t agree with.  I mean, these are the three boys that took her in the car and were the last ones with her and admitted to it, and the conduct they engaged in.

But you know, I—Rita, I want to be very careful here.  I‘m supportive of the Aruban government and their investigation.  I‘m glad they‘re acting on certain things now.  But you know, quite frankly, as two of months ago, they had already planned to search the sand dunes with the cadaver dogs.  And as of a couple months ago or even longer, they were already going to interview the Mountain Brook girls.

And I just don‘t want raised expectations here.  I don‘t necessarily like hearing that it‘s all new, fresh information that‘s leading to the lighthouse search or the questioning of the Mountain Brook people.  These were planned long ago.  And you know, I‘m a little bit skeptical.  And we‘ve been on roller-coasters before, and I don‘t want raised expectations for the family, at this point.

COSBY:  Oh, you bet.  And who knows?  And of course, we all pray that this would be resolved, but maybe we are just getting our hopes up.  What about—what about also the search at the sand dunes?  Because I understand, John, in the last few days, they have been—there has been some activity there, right?  What are you hearing?

KELLY:  Well, they went out there.  This has been planned for a while. 

They‘re using metal probes to push into the sand and turn the sand over.  And once that‘s completed, they want to bring the cadaver dogs in right afterwards, while the sand has been freshly turned over.  That way, even if they don‘t locate any objects or a body, the scent would be fresh on the surface there and the dogs might be able to pick it up.

COSBY:  And do we have any idea when the dogs are going to arrive, John?

KELLY:  I‘m expecting this within the next week.  I even heard—I wasn‘t able to confirm this—that a couple days ago, they were even there with the police helicopter hovering right above the sand, trying to turn it over and churn it a little bit to sort of freshen up and release any potential scents or something that the dogs might be able to pick up.

COSBY:  And Jossy, really quickly, I understand that Karin Janssen, the prosecutor in this case, has made sort of a pledge that she‘s going to releasing something by the end of the month?  It‘s only a few days left.

MANSUR:  Yes.  No, she did make that statement. (INAUDIBLE) and we are aware of that.  And she said that she has a lot of important information to release before the end of the month.

COSBY:  What do you both think she believes with the suspects?  Real quick.

MANSUR:  What do I believe?

COSBY:  Yes, do you believe she feels that they—they were released too soon?

MANSUR:  I‘m sure she‘s convinced because she was very disappointed when they released all three of the suspects because she presented a very strong case to the judge.

COSBY:  We‘ll be watching.  Thank you, Jossy and John.  Thank you very much.

And everybody, tonight, new details about the shocking double murder of a mother and a baby, but what about the husband who fled the country and might be tied to an Internet scam?  And that‘s not all we‘ve got coming up tonight.  Take a look.

Still ahead, a shootout at the u.s./Mexican border, smugglers taking a big chance, stopped in their tracks.  Wait until you hear what happens next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  After they finished unloading it, they torched the vehicle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And a new twist on our exclusive coverage of the border violence.  Wait until you hear who‘s getting help crossing over.  Are they now getting a road map to help them break the law?

And Richard Hatch, the naked guy who won “Survivor,” could end up now behind bars.  Will he stay dressed in jail?  One of his fellow castaways joins me LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And there‘s some new developments in a shocking double murder of a mother and her child.  The death of Rachel Entwistle and her baby daughter, Lillian, in a small town in Massachusetts has now become an international murder mystery.  That‘s because her husband, who is missing, has turned up in the United Kingdom, where he grew up.  As we speak, investigators are on their way to London, trying to track him down.  You can look at some new video we just got in of that.

Reporter Jeff Glore (ph) with NBC station WHDH in Boston has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GLORE, WHDH-TV (voice-over):  Three days after Rachel Entwistle and her 9-month-old daughter, Lillian, were found dead, five days after husband and father Neil flew out of the country, the mystery deepens.  In Hopkinton, investigators carry containers of potential evidence away from the crime scene, the house the Entwistles had only been renting for 10 days.

In England, where it appears Neil Entwistle has gone, neighbors in the quiet community where Entwistle‘s family still lives are reacting.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It‘s just awful.

GLORE:  And here in Cambridge, Middlesex DA Martha Coakley says her investigators have maintained their overseas phone dialogue with Neil Entwistle.

MARTHA COAKLEY, MIDDLESEX COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY:  We know where he is, and we believe that we can, when we need to, reach him again.

GLORE:  While still refusing to label him a suspect, she acknowledged the case is complicated.

COAKLEY:  It is unusual, in the sense that some of the pieces don‘t seem to fit.  As we look at this—and obviously, in a town that hasn‘t had a homicide in a long time, at a couple that doesn‘t appear be subject to domestic violence, we look at the manner of death, you know, all of these things are different.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And now let me bring in private investigator Vito Colucci to help us analyze this case.  Vito, one of the things I want to hit on—you‘ve also done some research on this—there‘s some tie to Internet scams with the husband and wife?

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Yes, there‘s quite a bit.  There‘s Internet porn, OK?  So that‘s the sleazy side of it.  There‘s eBay stuff.  There‘s many Web that sites they have.  And they‘ve made a lot of enemies with these Web sites.  They‘ve gotten bad feedback on eBay, a lot of threatening-type things going on the porn site.  You have to pay $1,600, $1,700 just to get this porn site started.  So they‘ve done some scams where they‘ve taken people- a lot of times, on these get-rich-quick schemes, people are using their last couple of dollars, and they‘re quite upset on that end.  So you‘ve got an avenue there.

But as far as him being a person of interest, this is your Webster‘s dictionary guy person of interest.  He throws a party for Saturday night.  The guests arrive at his house.  He‘s in England.  The wife and their baby is dead.  And not only that, they‘ve had conversations with him in England.  He hasn‘t come back, though.  First thing you want to do in a situation like this is hop and plane and come back here.

COSBY:  Well, that‘s what I want to ask, Vito.  I find it so strange.  You know, your wife and your daughter are killed, and you‘re not rushing on a plane back?  I‘m also surprised authorities are not demanding that.

COLUCCI:  Well, I mean, he could have very easily said—he‘s a person of interest.  He could have said, Look, I‘ll hop on the first plane.  Let the British authorities put me on the plane.  You guys can meet me there coming off the plane.  I need to get home.  This is my wife and my daughter.  Very strange stuff.

But here‘s another point, Rita.  This guy is dealing with a lot of porn.  I worked organized crime as a cop.  They handle many of the porn things out there, OK?  They were killed by a small-caliber handgun, which is the means organized crime uses.  It could be something to that end.

That‘s why, hopefully, this small town or maybe the Massachusetts police, I hope state police, are involved in this investigation because you can‘t just target him, even though he‘s the person of interest.  It could be something that he was not cooperating with organized crime or something.  I know it‘s a long shot, but good investigators look at everything.

COSBY:  What do you make of the fact that they both were out of jobs?  They had these sort of scams going on on the side, so it seems, but they both were out of jobs.  They just got—we just heard from the reporter just started renting this new home 10 days ago.  Could finances, could something like that be at the root of this?

COLUCCI:  Oh, definitely.  Definitely.  And not only that, Rita, one of the entries on the Web site says Rachel Entwistle is a thieving liar.  And that‘s just one of many different things directed at both her and her husband.

Look, it‘s a horrible crime.  Thirty years I‘ve been involved either as a cop or private detective.  You don‘t get used to this type of stuff, especially with a little infant baby.

COSBY:  Oh, it is so sad.  And stay with us, Vito, if you could, because I want to bring in now someone with reaction from across the Atlantic, reporter Victoria Thake.  She‘s with the Press Association.  She‘s on the phone now from the U.K.

Victoria, what are you hearing about Neil Entwistle there?  What‘s the reaction in the community?

VICTORIA THAKE, PRESS ASSOCIATION:  The reaction in the community (INAUDIBLE) shocked.  It‘s a very small town, a very small, close-knit community.  Neil and his brother grew up there.  The parents are very well respected in the neighborhood.  And they‘re all just shocked.  They just can‘t believe it‘s happened, really.

COSBY:  Have you had a chance to talk to his parents, who I understand are still there, or his friends or he himself?

THAKE:  No.  No.  The parents—we approached the parents first thing this morning, and they declined to comment, and we haven‘t seen them at all, all day.  His brother is believed to have traveled from his home in Leeds, up north in the country, to be with them, but a man at the property this afternoon again refused to answer questions from reporters.  The neighbors have all spoken, but they‘ve given a general view of the family.  But we haven‘t had anything concrete about Neil for a while, actually.

COSBY:  And do we have any idea where he‘s hiding out?  Is he hanging out with his parents?

THAKE:  We don‘t know.  I mean, latest reports suggest he is back in the U.K.  And there hasn‘t been any sighting of the parents around the house this afternoon.  But whether the parents have gone to meet him at a different location, we don‘t know.  We don‘t think he‘s in the property in Worksop because we don‘t see how he got in there, to be honest, if he is.

COSBY:  Tell us about his family.  What kind of background, his father, his mom?

THAKE:  Very well respected.  His father is a former coal miner who now is part of the local council.  He‘s a neighborhood representative on the local council.  Nobody in the community‘s had a bad word to say about the family, to be honest.  They‘ve all said that Neil was a lovely bloke, very close to his parents, very, very proud husband and father, and they just can‘t believe that he‘s involved in anything like this.

COSBY:  And Victoria, is there any buzz about any problems in the marriage?  Also, anything about this Internet scheme that we‘re hearing about?

THAKE:  No.  That‘s all come as a complete shock to everybody that knows him in this country.  And the first we knew about it were the Internet messages (INAUDIBLE) over there.  But over here, they just thought he was a computer expert.  She was a very well respected teacher.  She‘s had nothing but praise from her former colleagues at the schools she used to work at over here.  (INAUDIBLE) out of character to all the people that know them in this country.

COSBY:  Victoria, thank you very much.  We appreciate you being on the phone with us.  I know it‘s very late there.  We appreciate it.

And let‘s also now talk to Joe Dwinell.  He is the managing editor for Herald Media, part of the Boston Herald Group.  Joe, what are you hearing about sort of this Internet scam we were just talking to Vito about that the husband and the wife were involved in?

JOE DWINELL, MANAGING EDITOR, HERALD MEDIA:  Well, yes, especially the eBay part of it, they were involved.  And it‘s a Web of connections because it goes from there, but it all began with their own Web site, where they posted all those photos of their daughter, 9-month-old Lillian Rose.  But from there, you go to eBay, where they offer scams.  They offer get-rich-quick schemes.  And one of them is how to run your own adult pornography site.

COSBY:  And is this something that both of them were involved in, this porn site?

DWINELL:  It appears that their businesses were tied together.  When you go back and look at the registration, it‘s their addresses.  But a lot of it is him and his sites, and you just follow the trail from one site to another.

COSBY:  And it looks like there‘s some pretty serious complaints lodged against him, Joe, right?

DWINELL:  Right, especially on the eBay sites, a lot of unhappy customers.  They were saying they didn‘t like the services they were given.  But you know, you have to take those with a grain of salt.

COSBY:  You know, any other—are we looking at—are authorities saying—we know that they‘ve said he‘s a person of interest.  That‘s pretty strong to come out and say that.  Are they also looking at other persons of interest, maybe someone mad about getting ripped off by this couple?

DWINELL:  Well, like the DA said, she said she‘s looking at every piece of the puzzle.  These Internet sites are one of those pieces, she told us today.  And also, the state police are involved in this case.  A “Herald” reporter witnessed four state police troopers get on a plane today at Logan Airport and head towards England.

COSBY:  Why has he not rushed back?  Has anyone asked—you know, what is the DA and everyone else saying, why haven‘t they demanded him to come back?  And why hasn‘t he?  I mean, his wife and child are gone.

DWINELL:  Well, we asked that question to the DA, too, and she said that they have an open dialogue with him.  They were in touch with him yesterday.  She repeated that again today.  And she said that, you know, they want to question him.  She‘s stressing that he is a person of interest.  And when we approached the state troopers, they said, He knows we‘re coming now.

COSBY:  Oh, that‘s pretty powerful stuff.  When do you think—think

a matter of hours, I would assume, that they‘ll get a chance to get a sense

is there a sense they‘re going to arrest him or just talk to him?

DWINELL:  There‘s a sense that they‘re going to question him.  They really want to question him.  The Internet sites are the biggest part of it, I would think.  You know, what is he involved with?  Was there anyone who was upset?  I don‘t know.  We asked those questions, and the DA said it‘s a big piece of the puzzle, and they want to solve it, obviously.

COSBY:  You know, Vito Colucci, no forced entry into the home, no sign of burglary.  Those, again, signs pointing to the husband?

COLUCCI:  Well, it‘s—definitely.  I mean, you know, he is the person—if I‘m the lead investigator, he‘s my person of interest, my main person of interest.  But I‘m glad to hear that the state police and everybody else is involved.  There‘s a lot of computer work on this.  You got to get—and also, you got to get the time of death checked out with his manifest of his flight.  There‘s mounds of work to do on this, and I‘m glad that the big organizations are jumping in with this little town, too.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  Joe and Vito, thank you both very much.  We appreciate it.

And we‘re also on the case two of violent crimes that we‘re following here.  This is both stories that we‘ve been following for a long time.  First, the man charged in death of Virginia college student Taylor Behl was back in court today.  Thirty-eight-year-old Ben Fawley entered no plea to a first-degree murder charge.  Fawley admitted to being involved in Behl‘s death, but says it was the result of rough sex.  Taylor‘s body was found in a shallow ravine about an hour from her dorm last October.

Also tonight, this one in Pennsylvania, new information about the teenager accused of killing his girlfriend‘s parents, then taking their daughter on a run across the country.  Eighteen-year-old David Ludwig pleaded not guilty to two counts of criminal homicide.  Ludwig is accused of gunning down Michael and Kathryn (ph) Borden inside their home after they tried to end his relationship with their 14-year-old daughter, Kara Beth.  He could face the death penalty.  The two were found days later in Indiana.  Kara Beth Borden has not been charged with any crime.

And still ahead tonight: For the first time tonight, we‘re hearing from friend of a couple who apparently died during a joyride on the Great Lakes.  Does he believe theories that it was no accident?

And next, a major battle at the U.S./Mexican border.  Some drug smugglers with possible ties to Mexican police get stuck in the mud and go to extremes to get away.  That‘s all coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  About 1,400 pounds of narcotics.  The plates come back to an El Paso resident.  It was reported stolen.  And this is what they were able to catch.  Marijuana.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Some amazing pictures.  Well, for months, we‘ve been showing you the shocking violence going along the Mexican/U.S. border.  Tonight, a new story of smugglers caught in the act.  Smugglers found themselves in an armed stand-off with U.S. authorities after they found themselves stuck in the Rio Grande.  They were trying to smuggle in a huge shipment of marijuana—you can see it right there—across the border.  And get this.  Some of the culprits were dressed in Mexican military-style uniforms.  So were Mexican authorities caught in the act?

Joining me now is Huspeth (ph) County sheriff Arvin West (ph) to give us all the details.  Sheriff, how did you find out these smugglers were coming your way?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  My officers received the information that the drug lords were coming out of Mexico and heading towards the interstate.

COSBY:  And did you know that they had drugs?  Did you know what was in their cache?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Yes, ma‘am.  We had a pretty good idea that they were coming out from the border with—with marijuana.

COSBY:  Did you know to the degree—as we‘re looking at these pictures, that‘s a pretty incredible load.  Did you—did you know exactly what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, ma‘am.  We didn‘t.  We had a pretty good suspicion that it was going to be marijuana, but the amount was unknown at the time. 

COSBY:  Now, officials chased down, what was it, three SUVs.  What happened to those SUVs?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  One of the SUVs we were able to capture.  And I believe you‘ve see that in the photos there with the marijuana in it.  Once the officers give chase on it, they run back towards the border. 

That vehicle that you see there that‘s got the marijuana in it, it was caught.  The other two vehicles got away.  As the officers were approaching the Rio Grande levee there, they noticed the military Humvee on the American side.

The first vehicle made it through the crossing.  The second vehicle was—is the one that got stuck in the mud there. 

COSBY:  Yes, there were also these guys who were dressed—this is, I think, what is shocking everybody, Sheriff—Mexican military uniforms.  The Mexican government insists these are not military officers.  I want to read you a quote.  This is from the presidential spokesperson there in Mexico, Ruben Aquillar (ph), says about this. 

He says, “These were not Mexican soldiers.  It is know that these are drug traffickers using military uniforms, and they were not even regulation military uniforms.”  Do you buy that, Sheriff? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, ma‘am, not at all.  I‘ve lived in this area my entire life and on the border my entire life and have worked the area basically my entire adult life.  And I can show you here on a photo that was sent that we give to the station here with one guy dressed in a military-type uniform. 

That‘s going to be absolutely correct in him not being the military. 

He‘s part of the drug cartel that‘s operating down there. 

But what you‘re not being able to see and what we‘re trying to explain to people is the military had already flanked either side of this crossing right here and were keeping my officers at bay. 

COSBY:  How many of your officers were there? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Initially, we had—I had two of my deputies and three Texas DPS officers. 

COSBY:  And you were saying the military officers were keeping you guys at bay, sort of holding guard for these smugglers? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Correct.  Excuse me?

COSBY:  How many officers?  How many were involved? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  There was anywhere from 12 to 20.  There were several of them in the bushes.  We‘re not really sure on the actual count. 

COSBY:  How outraged are you, Sheriff?  I mean, here you are trying to do your best to defend the border, and you‘re telling me that Mexican military officers were flanking these smugglers and protecting these guys? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This is typical for their actions in our area.  We‘ve had an incident a few months back or a month or so ago where a dump truck, same type scenario, where the military stood the officers off, used a bulldozer, hooked onto the truck, and pulled it back up across the Rio Grande.  It‘s an everyday occurrence down here. 

COSBY:  And unfortunately, it is.  Sheriff, thank you very much.  And keep up the good work that you and all the other guys are doing down there.  Thank you. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Thank you.

COSBY:  But the border violence doesn‘t end there.  This story may even surprise you more. 

Get this.  A Mexican government commission says it‘s now distributing at least 70,000 maps with tips to—listen carefully—help illegal border crossers sneak into the United States. 

Joining me now is publisher of the Church Report, Jason Christie.  And right here with me in the studio is Bob Edgar.  He‘s the general secretary of the National Council of Churches. 

Jason, let me start with you.  You‘ve got the map with you.  Hold it up and describe—you don‘t have the map, I understand, but describe for us what is in this map? 

JASON CHRISTIE, CHURCH REPORT:  Well, essentially, the map shows water stations, places where, if the immigrants are in trouble, they can call in to a cell phone-type situation that‘s been set up solar-powered in the desert.  It‘s essentially outrageous.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  How long—and we‘re looking at it.  And we‘re looking at it. 

How long has this been going on and how widely distributed, Jason? 

CHRISTIE:  It started being distributed next week.  Ironically, Humane Borders, the organization responsible for the map and the printing thereof, held a press conference and sent a presser out yesterday expounding the virtues of doing this. 

COSBY:  And what do you think about it, Jason? 

CHRISTIE:  I think it‘s outrageous.  You know, it begs to differ who actually is coming through the border.  Out of curiosity, I called the local sheriff‘s department in Pima County, which is where Humane Borders is located, and the sheriff down there this morning told me they had 200 illegal immigrants in jail this morning. 

That‘s just one of the many components to the problem, when you essentially publish a map that says, “Here‘s the freeway.  If you‘re an illegal immigrant, come this way.  Here‘s the phone.  Here‘s the water.” 

The challenge that I offered to Humane Borders is, what‘s next, a free shuttle bus or light rail? 

COSBY:  Bob Edgar, what do you think about it? 

BOB EDGAR, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF CHURCHES:  Well, I think that he‘s gone too far in his comments, because what this really is the coalition in the border area that‘s trying to help save lives of more than 400 people who lost their life last year by showing people where the water stations are.  Smugglers don‘t need these maps.  The smugglers know more than our agents do in the area. 

COSBY:  Yes, as we just heard, unfortunately. 

EDGAR:  Right.  The National Council of Churches, joined by the Roman Catholics and the Jewish community, have spent a great deal of time looking at ways in which we can develop constructive immigration legislation to both protect the lives of people that are being injured and killed crossing the border but also rationalize the job situation both on the Mexican side and the U.S. side. 

COSBY:  And I do believe a lot of it comes down to economics. 

EDGAR:  Absolutely. 

COSBY:  But why not say, look, put the onus on the Mexican government.  Get them jobs.  Take good care of these people as opposed to saying, look, we‘ll help you get across the border. 

EDGAR:  That‘s a good point.  What I‘d like to see is I‘d like to see George Bush and the president of Mexico sit down together.  I‘d like to see Democrats and Republicans on this side of the border and the legislature on that side of the border map out a bipartisan effort to find ways to address the issues, increase the economic advantage in Mexico...

COSBY:  But in the meantime, should things like this, like this map we‘re talking about, be banned, because isn‘t it pushing illegal activity? 

EDGAR:  I don‘t think it‘s pushing illegal activity, as much as being suggested, because I think—I went there on August 29th with the American Jewish Committee.  And we were down there with a group called Border Links (ph), who are trying to educate people on both sides of the border as to the issues and be the good Samaritan, be the person that really cares. 

You know, if Moses had a map, it wouldn‘t have taken him as long to get from Egypt to Israel.  It took 40 years.  These persons are out there in the desert...

CHRISTIE:  Bob, I don‘t think, in fairness, Bob...

EDGAR:  One thing.  Let me just finish this one point.  The Clinton administration built a wall.  And I went down to see the wall.  And what the wall does in Nogales (ph) is it forces the immigrants out around, and it takes four days to walk across the desert.  And one individual can‘t carry enough water in four days.  Our position is...

COSBY:  But shouldn‘t we say then, then don‘t do it? 

EDGAR:  That‘s exactly right.  That‘s the first thing.  Don‘t do it, because it‘s so dangerous and it‘s not the way to immigrate to the United States.  But if they, in fact...

COSBY:  Bob, let me get Jason a turn. 

EDGAR:  ... do it, they ought to be at least provided an opportunity to get clean water. 

COSBY:  Jason, go ahead. 

CHRISTIE:  Yes, thank you.  First of all, Bob‘s compassion agenda is nice, but it has no teeth.  We‘ve got people coming across our border committing crime.  We had $31 million in Arizona last year alone in health care bills to illegal immigrants.  We have a national security problem with people coming across our border. 

It takes more than one idea.  It takes more than one wall.  There are economic ideas.  There are security issues.  The idea of a guest-worker program, which historically has never worked anywhere in the world, where six million people with guest-worker programs in Saudi Arabia that essentially have developed a caste system there.  You‘ve seen the riots recently in France. 

Those are the children of immigrants into France that are unhappy with the ghetto situations living there.  We need to stop...

EDGAR:  Jason, the guest-worker program has, in fact, worked in the United States.  We were involved in the Mt. Olive Pickle (ph) issue where the growers, the farmers, and Mt. Olive Pickle (ph) came together and provided a humane opportunity for H-2 and H-4 workers to actually come to the United States, pick pickles, pick cucumbers for the pickles, and then return on a regular basis.  So it does, in fact, work.

COSBY:  But the case—what he‘s saying is it‘s spawning off a generation of the illegal workers.  Fair enough point on both sides. 

CHRISTIE:  You‘re creating a caste system at that point.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  I understand what you‘re saying.  Both of you, thank you very much.  And thank you very much, Bob.

EDGAR:  Good to be with you.

COSBY:  Still ahead, everybody, we‘re going to talk more about the map down the road.  But still ahead, a couple vanishes during a joy ride on the Great Lakes.  For the first time tonight, I‘ll ask their friend if he believes it was an accident or a crime. 

And later, he won a million bucks for surviving a reality TV show. 

Tonight, find out why that money could send him to prison for a long time. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  If you took a hammer and tried to pound this into a hard, thick sole, you would have extreme difficulty doing so.  That‘s one evidence to me of foul play. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And there‘s new information tonight about a couple who went missing during a boating trip in the Great Lakes.  For the first time tonight, we‘re hearing from their friend. 

Lana Stampian (ph) and her boyfriend, Chuck Rutherford (ph), vanished from Lake Huron in August.  Stampian‘s body was found along the shore two weeks later.  Rutherford is still missing. 

An attorney for the woman‘s family believes it was not an accident, and he says he has evidence to prove it.  LIVE & DIRECT tonight is Eric Suth.  He has been Chuck Rutherford‘s friend for the past 15 years. 

How well do you know Chuck, you know, 15 years?  Good friend?  Do you feel you know everything about him? 

ERIC SUTH:  Well, I got to know Chuck extremely well through college.  I mean, he was essentially like a third roommate, spent a lot of time in our room.  We went on road trips together.  We went to a lot of different places and did a lot of different experience.  We were friends all throughout college. 

And then after college, like most college friends, we grew apart a bit, but continued to stay in touch.  I was actually thinking through, and I think I actually—the last time I talked to him was probably just a couple of days before he went on that trip, because I was calling him in early August just to ask him a quick legal advice question. 

COSBY:  You know, and from what you know about him and the case, what do you think happened here? 

SUTH:  Well, what I know didn‘t happen was I know Chuck didn‘t do any wrongdoing and there‘s no underhanded, or mischievous, or somehow sinister plot where he ended up having anything to do with the death. 

COSBY:  Not at all?  You don‘t believe he might have killed her, staged his disappearance, done any of those things? 

SUTH:  Absolutely not.  There‘s no evident to prove that.  The only evident that they have to prove it are a couple of words from Andrew Jarvis (ph), who made some statements on a national broadcast accusing somebody of doing something that was based on a couple of comments from some of his friends after a Laci Peterson spot aired, where probably every woman in the country said the exact same thing.  I mean, it‘s...

COSBY:  Let me even play a little bit of comment, because we had Jack Cote (ph), who‘s the attorney for Lana‘s family. 

SUTH:  Sure.

COSBY:  Let me play exactly what you‘re talking about. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We have sworn statements from two lady friends of Lana, somewhat of a premonition, if you will, taken several—remarks that she made to her lady friends several weeks before the boat trip.  “If something happens to me, check out Chuck.”

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  What do you know about their relationship?  Was there ever a physical relationship or any violence in their background? 

SUTH:  No.  And there‘s no violent background in Chuck, either.  I mean, I know the guy.  Believe me, when you spend that much time with somebody, you get to know their personality, you get to know their mental state.  He was not mentally unstable, and he was not a violent person. 

You know, I mean, that comment, again, was reported to having been made after they were talking about the Laci Peterson hearings.  Again, if I counted—if I had a nickel for every woman in America that probably made the exact same statement, I‘d be a millionaire. 

COSBY:  Anything about a hit-and-run?  We were hearing some report that he may have been involved in some hit-and-run with Lana.  Do you know anything about that?

SUTH:  Hit-and-run?  What do you mean?

COSBY:  Some sort of hit-and-run accident?  We were hearing some reports that there may have been—you know, there have been some issues in the past.

SUTH:  Where they got—I still don‘t understand.  They got in a hit-and-run or he hit her and ran or...

COSBY:  We‘re not sure if it‘s something that may indicate that maybe there was some violence or some problems...

(CROSSTALK)

SUTH:  The only other thing that they actually said anything about was in a bar where he had a bit too much to drink and he got a little vocal.  And, you know, we‘ve all done that.  Yes, I could see him doing that, sure. 

But to go from there and from some statements made during a Laci Peterson discussion to saying on national TV that he did it or that he may have done it is just ridiculous.  It‘s just un-excusable that somebody would go on national TV and actually make those accusations, somebody who actually lives in the community and is causing an impact to that family. 

It‘s ridiculous.  I know the guy.  He didn‘t do it.  You know, they talk about—they talk about a knob in a shoe.  Well, you know, the only thing that that would prove, if the GPS was manipulated—and there was a knob in her shoe.  She was on the boat when the GPS was manipulated.  How else would it have gotten in her shoe?  Those things don‘t fall off.  You‘ve got to turn them, like, 30 times to get them screwed on or off. 

COSBY:  And I know the attorney was on this show saying that there was some sign of struggle.  The question is, again...

SUTH:  That‘s ridiculous.

COSBY:  ... it could have been somebody else on the boat, too, as well. 

SUTH:  Absolutely, it could have. 

COSBY:  Eric, thank you very much.  We appreciate you being on here. 

Thank you. 

SUTH:  Sure.  And I‘d like to extend again my condolences—I haven‘t been able to in person—to the families of Lana and Chuck. 

COSBY:  Thank you very much.  I appreciate you being here.  Thank you. 

SUTH:  You‘re very welcome.  Thank you. 

COSBY:  Thank you. 

And there‘s a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight.  Let‘s check in with my pal, Joe Scarborough, for a preview of what‘s coming up in a few minutes—Joe? 

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Hey, thanks a lot, Rita.  Coming up in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY,” as you know, as most of America knows right now, there is a scandal rocking Oprah‘s empire.  Tomorrow, there‘s going to be a showdown live on national TV.  They‘re going to be talking about James Frey‘s book of lies. 

And Oprah came out, of course, selected it as the book of her book of the month club, and guaranteed to her audience it was absolutely true.  Well, it‘s not absolutely true.  And tomorrow, it may get ugly in the land of Oprah.  We‘re going to have that and a lot more, straight ahead in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”

COSBY:  That should be good.  Thank you very much, Joe.  We appreciate it.  Everybody, tune in just about 12 minutes from now. 

And still ahead, Richard Hatch used cunning skill and getting naked to win a million dollars on “Survivor.”  Tonight, he‘s behind bars.  We‘ll tell you why.  A fellow castaway joins me, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Police tonight are saying that there no signs of foul play in the death of actor Chris Penn.  Penn, the younger brother of Sean Penn, was found dead in his apartment near Los Angeles.  He appeared in such films as “Reservoir Dogs,” “Mulholland Falls,” “All the Right Moves,” and “Footloose.”

Penn‘s latest film, “The Darwin Awards,” was set to premiere today at the Sundance Film Festival.  Chris Penn was 40 years old.

Tonight, another famous television personality is behind bars.  Late today, a Rhode Island jury found Richard Hatch guilty of tax evasion for failing to pay up on his $1 million winnings from the show “Survivor.”  The judge said Hatch was a flight risk, so he ordered him to jail immediately. 

Hatch won the first season of “Survivor” and was most widely known because he was the man who was always naked.

Joining me now LIVE & DIRECT is one of Hatch‘s fellow contestants on the hit show, “Survivor,” Dr. Shawn Kinneps.  He‘s the medical reporter now for WFOR-TV in Miami. 

Sean, first of all, you know, what was your reaction when you heard this today, that he‘s now behind bars? 

SHAWN KINNEPS, WFOR MEDICAL REPORTER:  You know, I was disheartened, because Richard and I are friends.  You don‘t make many friends out there on “Survivor” island.  But, you know, I think that Richard and I—he would call me a friend, and I would call him a friend, although I hadn‘t spoken to him in quite sometime before this.  But it‘s sad, as anyone in America can imagine, anytime you see someone that you know personally go to jail, even for if it‘s something as serious as tax evasion. 

COSBY:  You bet.  And, you know, he handled, obviously, “Survivor,” but can he handle—I mean, he‘s looking at maybe of up to 13 years in prison?

KINNEPS:  Yes, I mean, a lot of people have been asking me lately, like, do you think his skills out there on “Survivor” are going to help him in jail?  I mean, jail I just think is a whole other issue. 

I mean, “Survivor” was tough.  It was 39 days of sheer willpower, of deprivation, and of bearing the weather and everything like that.  But, you know, when you go to jail—and I haven‘t had the distinct displeasure of ever going to jail, and I hope I never will—it‘s got to really break your spirit in the order that a game show just can‘t. 

I mean, and, you know, Richard makes mistakes.  I‘m not telling anything to America they don‘t know.  He‘s conniving.  He‘s calculating, but he‘s not really a bad guy deep down.  And I feel bad for him.  And I know a lot of America, that‘s probably not going over that well.  But, again, at the same time, you know, deep down, he‘s a pretty good guy. 

COSBY:  You know, one of the things that his attorneys brought out sort of right at the end and was sort of a big shocker at the end of the case is that he said that the folks on “Survivor,” the producers, were supposed to pay his taxes.  That‘s the reason he didn‘t, because he caught sort of a cheating scam, that they were cheating, bringing on food onto the island, caught some of the other folks in the act. 

Did he ever tell you that this was going on, that there was some scam going on?

KINNEPS:  No, he never mention anything to me, certainly while we were out there.  And, you know, I‘ve seen conflicting reports in the press.  There‘s been 10 or 11 different iterations of “Survivor” right now, at least 16 contestants on each of them.  That‘s well over 100 contestants. 

And if there was widespread cheating based on any of the contestants, you would have heard about it, or the producers, for that matter.  When I was out there—I don‘t want to speak for every other contestant—I saw no cheating on behalf of the other survivors.  I saw no one sneaking any food.  I saw no shenanigans going on between the producers and...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Yes, did the producers say, “Look, you got to pay your taxes”?  Did they demand—make sure, you know, walk you guys straight, like you yourself even? 

KINNEPS:  Well, you know, that‘s a good question.  I can‘t speak for the other survivors, but I was always operating under the assumption that I would have to pay taxes on any money that I won.  And I think that‘s kind of how the rest of the survivors felt.  And that was my impression of how Richard felt. 

I was with Richard when he deposited his million-dollar check.  I was working for the TV show “Extra” at the time.  And I was kind of surprised there wasn‘t any taken out.  But I think I was just operating under the assumption, like all game shows that you would have to pay taxes on it, I don‘t recall a lecture or any kind of advice coming from the “Survivor” staff that said, “You‘re going to have to.” 

I think we all just kind of assumed, and maybe a passing comment here and there from one of the producers we might have been told that, but nothing was concrete about that.  But I think we all just assumed that we would be paying taxes. 

COSBY:  And, Sean, finally, do you plan to visit him in jail or prison, if he goes to it? 

KINNEPS:  Well, you know, I‘m down in Miami.  He‘s way up there in Rhode Island, so that‘s a bit of a stretch.  But, you know, I would.  If he would want me to come by and say hello and he‘s lonely, I certainly would. 

He‘s not that bad of a guy.  He got himself in a situation I don‘t think he could get out of after awhile financially, and I think now he‘s paying the price.  And, you know, if you love him, you hate him, he gave America hours and hours of entertainment and hours and hours of a show that someone could talk about.  And, you know, it‘s never good to see someone going to jail. 

COSBY:  All right, Shawn, thank you very much.  Good to have you on, another one of the survivors.  Thanks, Shawn Kinneps, very much. 

KINNEPS:  Thank you for having me. 

COSBY:  Thank you.

And tomorrow night, Richard Hatch‘s lawyer‘s going to join us LIVE & DIRECT, so be sure to tune into that. 

Also, another primetime exclusive.  Actor Steven Baldwin (ph) is fighting back against porn in his own town.  The star is going to tell me why he is taking action.  That‘s all tomorrow night, right here on LIVE & DIRECT.  Be sure to tune in. 

And, everybody, we‘re going to be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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