updated 1/27/2006 11:01:17 AM ET 2006-01-27T16:01:17

Guest: Casey Ross, Steve Huff, Vito Colucci, Howie Carr, Stephen Baldwin,

Misha Paistro, John Fernandes, Bill Morrow, Juan Hernandez, Chuck Harris,

Ana Figueroa, Michael Minns

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, a shocking discovery, smugglers hiding out right under the feet of police, a massive smuggling tunnel longer than eight football fields.  We've got the video, and we're taking you inside.  And a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive, actor Stephen Baldwin.  He's cleaned up his image, but he's got a dirty fight on his hands.  He's fighting porn in his own neighborhood, and he's going to join me live.

But first tonight, shocking new details in an international double murder mystery that involves a get-rich porn scheme.  Investigators arrived in London today to question Neil Entwistle, who is originally from Britain.  His wife, Rachel Entwistle, and their 9-month-old baby, Lillian, were both found murdered in their Massachusetts home last weekend.  Investigators here say they believe Neil Entwistle has some answers, but the Brits aren't so quick to point the finger at him.

Joining us now is Casey Ross from “The Boston Herald.”  Casey, do you know if there was any progress from investigators on the other side?

CASEY ROSS, “BOSTON HERALD”:  Well, they came out with a very strong statement early on in the day, saying that Neil Entwistle was not a suspect in they case.  But later on, we heard from Massachusetts authorities, who made clear that he is a person of interest.  They have had numerous contacts—the authorities in Massachusetts and Mr. Entwistle and...

COSBY:  And in fact, let me put up the statement that—this is the police over there in England released.  It was pretty interesting.  It says, “Neil Entwistle is not a suspect.  He is being treated by American authorities as a potential witness.”  Is there anything that you've garnered that he's a witness to something?

ROSS:  We haven't heard anything like that so far.  We've only heard from the Massachusetts authorities that he is a person of interest.  They are very interested in his answers as to what might have happened in the house.

COSBY:  Do we have any idea who the Brits are talking to?  I would assume family, friends, colleagues, right?

ROSS:  Yes, family, friends, colleagues.  There numerous people of interest in the case that they want to speak with, and they say this investigation could go on for quite some time.

COSBY:  Have they reached out—have you heard anything that they've reached out to Neil Entwistle himself, and is he talking?

ROSS:  He is talking.  He's talking with American authorities.  I don't believe he has had any conversations with the British authorities, although we don't know that.  He had numerous conversations with the district attorney's office in Massachusetts.  They have described him as cooperative.

COSBY:  Any words about extraditing him?  Because clearly, wasn't home.  It sounds like he didn't report the crime.  A lot of people are going, Why is he not rushing back, and why are we not forcing him to come back?

ROSS:  That is the big question in the case.  There hasn't been any talk yet of extradition.  Right now, the Massachusetts authorities have gone over there to speak with him.  And when I asked them tonight whether or not they were asking him to come back, they sort of demurred on the answer and said only that he has just not returned to the United States and extradition is not in process, at this point.

COSBY:  Casey, what are do we know about his business dealings, this Internet scheme?  It sounds like both of them were somehow involved.

ROSS:  Yes, both of their names were connected to the SR Publications, the Web site that they ran.  He had numerous dealings, and there were some comments on a Web site—he participated in eBay auctions and sold his products on the eBay Web site, and a lot of people had commented in a very short period of time about—and complained about not getting the products that they purchased through the Web site.  So there are a lot of questions there.  Authorities are looking into that angle, the angles just in terms of his Web site and what it might have had to do with this case.

COSBY:  Casey, hang with us because I want to bring in now our expert crime panel to see how they would crack this case.  Joining us is crime blogger Steve Huff, Boston talk radio host and columnist with “The Boston Herald” Howie Carr, and also private investigator and pal of the show Vito Colucci.

Steve, let me start with you.  What are you seeing on the Internet about this couple?

STEVE HUFF, CRIME BLOGGER:  I am seeing a long trail of very interesting Web sites, basically, that—it's—it's—they're either names or addresses keep connecting these Web sites to one another.

COSBY:  Do they look like a sort of shadow, like (INAUDIBLE) or maybe it's a different name and an address linking all to the same home?

HUFF:  Yes.  For instance, a question I would ask Neil Entwistle, if I were talking to him about some of these Web sites, is who was Mark Smith and why did he have the same address as Entwistle, when the Web site Depotsex.com (ph) was registered, for instance.

COSBY:  So it was sort of a pseudo-name.  You think he sort of created a name or a person?

HUFF:  If I had to guess, I'd guess that might be the case because the Web site—for instance, that Web site was registered in 2004.  And 2004, Entwistle was married, so it doesn't make sense that he would have—I mean, he could have been sharing a business with someone, I suppose.

COSBY:  How do you create these Web sites, Stephen?  And sort of how do you sign up?  Do you have to pay for them?

HUFF:  Yes, you have to pay for them.  You pay for the Web space, basically.  And it just depends on the company that's hosting.  A lot of them that appear to be Entwistle's were owned by a Schlundt (ph), which is a German company that owns a number of Web sites.  And I think...

COSBY:  And does it look like the couple was together, Steve?

HUFF:  You mean the Entwistles?

COSBY:  Yes.  Does it look like—I mean, in terms...

HUFF:  I'm sorry.

COSBY:  ... in terms of in business ventures, does it look like they both were sort of in these sort of, you know, fringe Web sites or these get-rich-quick and porn ones?

HUFF:  It's not clear that they were, no.  I believe that in the eBay

·         for instance, with the eBay, SR Publications, I believe Neil was using Rachel's name, but I don't believe Rachel, my personal opinion is I don't think she was aware of what was going on there.

COSBY:  Oh, that's interesting.  Vito, let me bring you in.  Where do you think the investigation needs to go?  And let me also put up again the full screen.  This is from the Brits because we were quite surprised to see this statement coming from them.  Remember, the DA in the Massachusetts area is saying that he's a potential, you know, person of interest at this point.  They—she's also come out saying it's not a random crime, which is certainly code for, We're looking at Neil Entwistle.

But here's what British police are saying.  “Neil Entwistle is not a suspect.  He's being treated by American authorities as a potential witness.”  Vito, what do you make of all this?

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  First of all, Rita, I don't think they should be even making a comment like that, OK, because that could be detrimental to the case in a lot of ways.  You know, the people are over there.  The information I got is that two Hopkinton officials, as well as two state police, are over there.  And they've been there a while, so I'm sure they're at the heart of this matter right now.  So I'm very surprised by that statement from England.  I don't think it really helps the case at all.

But let me just say this, Rita.  I feel this case will be cracked.  And you know why?  The person at the head of this, the DA, Martha Coakley - - I read something that she wrote today, and this is what she said.  There are several steps going on right now.  We're looking at everything.  We don't want to lead the evidence, we want the evidence to lead us.  And that is a great statement.  That's how every investigation should go, Rita.  And that's why I'm confident.

I think they're going to get—I think they're going to crack this case in very little time.  Maybe that's why he's just called a witness because, like we talked about, this could be a revenge act.  He wasn't working, she wasn't working.  They had to accumulate money someplace, and they did with these Internet things.

COSBY:  Let me bring in Howie Carr, because Howie, you're in that community.  A lot of us are saying, Why didn't he—first of all, you know, even if he didn't play a role, why don't you come back?  Your wife and your baby are killed.  Why are you not, A, being insisted to come back or come back on your own?

HOWIE CARR, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  Well, I think a lot of people are also asking the question, Why did he leave Massachusetts when they had a party scheduled?  They were welcoming all their friends and relatives to their new house in Hopkinton, which they had just rented a few days earlier.  And they all showed up on Saturday night, and the house is dark.  And he took off.  He didn't even let anybody know.  I mean, he just vanished instantaneously.  And there's a lot of questions about that.

COSBY:  Is there frustration, Howie, with the British authorities, and especially making a statement like, He's a potential witness, when clearly, the language you hear from Martha Coakley and others seems to suggest otherwise?

CARR:  Well, yes, that's a good point, Rita.  There's another—well, a fugitive from Massachusetts, a guy named James “Whitey” Bulger.  He's been on the top 10 most wanted list for the FBI for more than a decade.  And most indications are that this guy, Whitey Bulger, a serial killer, is in the UK.  And the FBI keeps coming up with these leads, and they just don't get much cooperation at all from the British authorities.  And now it appears, with these statements that are being issued by this police force on the edge of Sherwood Forest—I mean, a lot of my listeners tonight were making jokes.  It sounds like the sheriff of Nottingham is still calling the shots over there.

COSBY:  Yes, and you know, Vito, is there anything that they can do, at this point?

COLUCCI:  Yes, you know, I'm very surprised because we got a good working relationship, I know, police department-wise with England, especially with the case of Whitey because this guy is wanted.  Now, with Entwistle, it's a totally different matter over here.  You know, he's just a person of interest right now, and I think there's good cooperation going on in that case.  But it's—you know, it's a very interesting case.  And me, with my 30 years of experience, a cop and a private detective, it's really intriguing to sit and think about this one, Rita.

COSBY:  You know, Vito, what do you make of the fact that—killing the baby?  You know—you know, you might kill somebody if you think that they're a potential witness.  A young baby many months old is not going to be a witness.  And the other thing we're hearing—not a random crime.  And we're also hearing from some folks I talked to that maybe they were killed in their sleep, that maybe they were napping or it was overnight hours.  They were found fully clothed.  What do all these pieces say to you, Vito?

COLUCCI:  Definitely not a random crime.  What this is probably, I think, going to wind up being—if Entwistle is not involved, this is a serious, serious case of revenge.  And the way you do your revenge is also killing the little 9-month-old, as sick as it may sound.  And as far as being killed in their sleep, I'm sure—I'm not sure, but I would imagine that the mother was killed first, and that leaves a helpless baby, and then killed the baby after that.

But I really think, once this comes out, somebody that he really cheated or did something really bad to that we may not even know about has done this.

COSBY:  Howie, what are listeners saying also about this Internet scam?  Because maybe one of these folks who's been emailing, saying that they're outraged, that they were ripped off by him, now it's payback.

CARR:  Well, yes, I think—I think there are a lot of people who don't understand how some of these amateur porn sites work, which is what he was selling services to and then not delivering on.  That's another one of the scams he was allegedly involved in.  I think a lot of the listeners think, well, adult business—there you see it right up there on the screen—they think that means that somehow the Mafia is involved and so that some sort of hitmen were sent after him, but I don't see that as a possibility.

I think most of the listeners just assume that Neil Entwistle himself is the prime suspect, and as soon as the state police and the Hopkinton detectives who are over there get a fugitive warrant, that he'll be on his way back here to Massachusetts.

COSBY:  Casey, if you're still with us, what about his family?  Isn't his dad a pretty prominent, what, state senator and some high-up connections?  Have we heard from any of them?

ROSS:  We haven't heard from the family, at this point.  They did issue a brief statement today, simply saying that it's been very hard on them, the investigation.  And obviously, it's very shocking at this point.  And they really haven't made any statements at all.

COSBY:  All right, all of you, thank you very much.  And of course, we're going to continue to follow this case.

Everybody, coming up, exclusive details in the case of “Survivor” winner Richard Hatch.  Tonight, his attorney joins me live with what he says is proof that his client is innocent.  It's all coming up.

And that's not all.  Still ahead; If you think criminals are smuggling drugs into the U.S. under the nose of police, you're wrong.  It's right under their feet.  Tonight, shocking pictures of a once-hidden tunnel so big, you can drive a car underground and sneak across the border.

And more cruise ship troubles.  This time, it's Carnival Cruise Lines facing a legal fight over sexual assaults at sea.  How often does it happen?  One of my guests says the number is shocking.

And a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive, actor Stephen Baldwin.  He's cleaned up his image and wants to clean up something else, porn in his neighborhood, and he's got it all on tape.  It's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Actor Stephen Baldwin is known for his roles on the big screen, but check out his latest project.  He's fighting to keep porn out of his neighborhood with camera in hand.  He's catching people going near a porn shop and getting them on film.  You can see some of it there.  Right now, it's just the construction crews who are coming and going, but soon the parking lot will be full of local protesters joining in the Baldwin fight.  Baldwin is waging his personal battle near his home town in Nyack, New York.  And with me here for an exclusive interview in studio tonight is actor Stephen Baldwin.  By the way, we did invite the store owners and their lawyers to join us.  They declined.

Why are you doing this?  This is a pretty aggressive tactic.

STEPHEN BALDWIN, ACTOR:  Well, you know, really—really let me just state for the record, first and foremost, my beef here is really with the zoning realities that go on in and around these types of businesses.  I know that I'm not going to win any battle against pornography.  It's like drugs.  It's here to stay.  It's not going to go away.  But certainly, when a town board like the one in Nyack, after we go to three town board meetings and the people that I'm representing in this conversation obviously voice their opposition, and the town board says, Hey, it's the zoning, we can't stop them, there's nothing we can do, the only way now, I've figured out, to stop this reality—because it's on a major thoroughfare.  Every time I take my two daughters to ballet class...

COSBY:  It's right there, right smack in the...

BALDWIN:  Four times a week, I'll have to pass the place twice a day.  And so now what I've said is kind of—I'll be honest with you, kind of in a bit of a wiseguy kind of way, OK, well, what I'll do is, within my rights and, you know, all of that, I'll photograph the patrons of this place.

COSBY:  And videotape them.  We're looking at some video here, too.

BALDWIN:  And this is me just filming the construction workers who came out, berated me, cursed at me, yelled at me, all kinds of stuff like that.  And I explained to these guys, I don't have a choice.  If the only way I can shut this business down is to drive the business away, because that's the way the system works, well, then, that's what I'm going to do.

COSBY:  Are you surprised—now I want to play what the city of Nyack said.  This is in a quote.  It says, “An adult bookstore in the village of Nyack requires a special permit from the Zoning Board of Appeals.  The conditions are laid out in the village code.  The location of this application fulfilled those conditions.”  And what they essentially said is that you can't be within 200 feet of—it's a residential property.  It's also a school, also a church, as you can see here.  And they say, you know, even if it's close, it still fits within these codes.

Is there anything they can do?

BALDWIN:  Well, I have some things cooking right now that are going to actually be brought to light about the situation very quickly.  But even right there...

COSBY:  Like what?  Like what kind of things?

BALDWIN:  Well, just about how this group came in and actually what they said the business was going to be.

COSBY:  (INAUDIBLE) some questions as to...

BALDWIN:  Absolutely, there's question.

COSBY:  ... the presentation.

COSBY:  There's no question there's questions.  But for me, it's not only that, it's just interesting to me—think about this.  Across the street from an elementary school, a porno shop can open.  That's the way our zoning laws are set up.

COSBY:  Are you astounded, too, as a father—you've got two kids.  You've got two daughters, two beautiful daughters.  You know, how—how do you fight it?  Because it is overwhelming.  And this is obviously a first step, but are you hoping that this—maybe other folks are going to take camera in hand?

BALDWIN:  I absolutely hope so.  And that—let me make another point.  I want my children to realize and recognize, through the actions of their dad, they don't have to back down.  You can stand up for what you believe in and fight for what you believe in.  And I believe the zoning laws for pornographic stores in America  are wrong.  They're ridiculous, and I'm not going to put up with it.

COSBY:  Now, where does it stand with this?  I know you've been showing the construction workers.  We were just showing that.  What's the sort of timetable for this actual—this location to get up?

BALDWIN:  I have no idea.  But I told the construction workers, and I'm telling everybody else who cares to hear what I have to say, I will personally or I will employ a photographer—I will have signage that lets the patrons know in advance when they are arriving at the store, You will be photographed.  Your name will be made public knowledge, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, because that's the only choice I have in order to drive the business away in the hope that this business will close down.  I told the construction workers...

COSBY:  Are you going to post the names?  Are you going to post the names in the newspaper, or how are you going to release that?

BALDWIN:  Absolutely.  I'll post names in the newspaper...

COSBY:  Has the newspaper agreed to do that?

BALDWIN:  I can do it—there's already Web sites that do this sort of thing that are very successful.  Here's my—again, Rita, you want to do pornography, whoever is out there wants to do that stuff, God bless you.  Good luck.  That's between you and God.  It's got not nothing to do with me.  But I don't think I should have to lay down, throw my hands up and say, Oh, well, there's nothing I can do about this.  That's ridiculous.

The laws that allowed this store to open where it's opening, half a mile from my house, I think are crazy.  So now I'm going to do something a little crazy in order to drive the business away, if that's what I have to do.

COSBY:  Now, you've done some sexually explicit films in the past.  I know you're...

BALDWIN:  Of course.

COSBY:  ... a born-again Christian.  (INAUDIBLE) you did a film called “Threesome,” and now you're—what do you say to folks who say, Is this the right guy to be doing this?

BALDWIN:  Well, again, a whole bunch of the movies that I've done before we now classify in the film category of my life as BC.  A lot of the films I've done in the past you wouldn't see me in the sequel to.  Of course, I'm not the guy I used to be.  There's a whole bunch of films that I wouldn't do today.  In fact, in the last two years...

COSBY:  Because you've become born-again Christian.

BALDWIN:  Absolutely, because of my faith-based perception, there's a lot of things I wouldn't do.  I just did a movie with Tom Selleck that was on CBS recently.  The ratings were great.  I played a tough guy, smoked cigarettes, had a gun, you know, said a bad word.  Listen, I'm not sitting here going the other way, like, totally fanatically.  That's not the point.

And again, my problem is with the zoning laws.  I don't—people want to do things in the privacy—there's plenty of ways for people to do the pornographic thing.

Here's the other big issue with this particular location—peep shows within the store.  These guys are going to have eight video booths.  I mean, I have documentation of the kinds of people that will start to come to this area.  Property values are going to go down.  The duration of time it takes to sell a home located in this kind of an area takes longer and longer and longer.  Sexual crimes go up.  Rape goes up.

I mean, here's the thing.  I'm not going to be one of those people in the Nyack area that when somebody tries to go after my kid, sits there and says, Oh, well, we should have had something about that porn store so close to my house.

COSBY:  (INAUDIBLE) action now.

BALDWIN:  I'm doing it now.

COSBY:  What kind of support are you getting in the community?  I saw that you're getting the help of, what, even some students.

BALDWIN:  Oh, absolutely.

COSBY:  What's going to happen at opening day at the shop?

BALDWIN:  Well, I've been talking to a couple of students from a couple of the local colleges.  Particularly, Nyack College is a Christian college in the area, and some of the students there who have voiced their support for this reality.  And then I hang out at a coffee shop called the Runcible Spoon in Nyack all the time.  Listen, there's lot of liberal folks that live in Nyack, and I've had a dozen people come up to me and pat me on the back and say, Listen, I agree with you that I wish this place wasn't around.

Again, I'm not doing it for that.  I'm not doing it for any other reason than to say I personally don't agree with the fact that I have to lay down and allow this place to open and see it every day and let my kids see it when I don't agree with it.

COSBY:  How long do you plan on doing the filming?  And I think it's interesting.  You've already started doing that taping.  How long—and do you feel you're invading some privacy?

BALDWIN:  No, I don't think I'm going to be invading anybody's privacy because they will be forewarned.  When they're pulling in, there'll be some kind of a person picketing with a sign that says this is what you're getting yourself into.

And listen, I don't—I'm not happy about having to take this action, but the owners of this building, three times at town board meetings, it was made available to their representation that there were local residents that were in opposition of this store.  They had the choice to take their business somewhere else and chose not to do it.

COSBY:  And how long will you fight this, Stephen, real quick?

BALDWIN:  I'm not going to fight until it shuts down—I'm not going to stop fighting until it shuts down.  But here's something else.  They chose to take the position -- - the wife of the owner said in “The New York Post” newspaper, she said, Hey, it's a free country.  Well, that's the way I feel, so I'm going do what I got to do.

COSBY:  Good for you for taking on a good fight.  All right, thank you very much.  Stephen Baldwin, good to have you on.

BALDWIN:  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

And now to a heart-breaking story on the West Coast, in San Francisco.  Police there are on the hunt for the killers of a 34-year-old father of two.  Sean Keel was shot to death by at least two young men wearing ski masks.  Today we're hearing from Keel's 4-year-old daughter, Vanessa (ph).  This is just one of the heart-wrenching messages she left for her father since the killing.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

VANESSA:  Hi, Daddy.  The (inaudible) message.  I love you.  Go the right way.  Yes, they are horrible people, OK?  I love you.  Please leave me a message.  (inaudible) and we went to heaven.  Then my mommy went to go found a spot for you.  (inaudible) then I gave her a little flower.  Bye.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSBY:  So sad to hear.  And police now say that they are looking for a total of four suspects in the brutal shooting.  Investigators believe that Sean Keel may have been killed for the hubcaps on his car.  Keel's wife described her husband earlier on “THE ABRAMS REPORT.”

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  He was a very giving individual.  He was a very good husband and a very loving father.  He looked forward to coming home after work.  He actually would pick up the girls from day care.  And their day was basically, you know, he'd bring them home, feed them, clean them up, play with them.  Basically, he was having—I think this was the—having the time of his life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And if you have any information about the killing of Sean Keel, please call the San Francisco Police Department at the number you see there on your screen, 415-575-4444 -- again, 415-575-4444.

And coming up: Trouble at sea.  A girl says she was assaulted on board a Carnival cruise ship, and she's taking them to court.  But find out why some people say it happens more than you know.

And talk about tunnel vision, amazing pictures of an enormous drug-smuggling tunnel longer than eight football fields.  Who dug it, and how did the authorities find out?  That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  It's like being in a mineshaft or a cave.  It's cavernous.  Anybody that suffers from claustrophobia, this would be the last place that they want to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Agents along the Mexican border have just made an incredible and disturbing discovery.  They have uncovered one of the largest smuggling tunnels they have ever seen and about two tons of marijuana that was being brought into the U.S.  This tunnel that you're looking at pictures of, hidden deep beneath the earth, runs from Tijuana, Mexico, to Otay Mesa, California.  It is about 2,400 feet long or—get this—about the length of eight football fields.

Joining us to talk more about this incredible discovery is John Fernandes and Misha Paistro with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration. 

Misha, let me start with you.  First of all, how did you make this discovery? 

MISHA PIASTRO, DEA SPECIAL AGENT:  Well, this was based on information we've been working with jointly with ICE and U.S. Border Patrol and the Mexican authorities over quite sometime. 

COSBY:  Was it human intelligence or did you stumble upon it?  How did that come about?

PAISTRO:  We have a variety of different ways that—you know, investigative techniques that we employ when we're doing investigations of this nature. 

COSBY:  Now, Misha, you went in the tunnels.  We're looking at some pictures.  What was it like?  I mean, it just must have been astounding. 

PAISTRO:  It was.  It was alarming.  When you first get in there, it's

·         obviously it's unrivalled by the other tunnels that we've seen recently along the southwest border.  And I was really struck by the tremendous effort it must have taken to excavate this tunnel that was so long, as wide and as tall as it was, to excavate that dirt, get it out, secretly, and hide it, in order to conceal the construction of this tunnel. 

COSBY:  It is incredible.  In fact, John, I want to ask you.  I want to show, first of all, some of the—just the mechanisms and design of this.  Five feet wide.  The ceilings are high enough for an adult to stand inside.  It has a cement floor, lights on the walls, and even a pulley system.  You know, is this one of the most elaborate system you've seen?  And just to hit on what Misha was saying, how long do you think it took someone to construct this? 

JOHN FERNANDES, DEA SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE:  Well, not only is it the largest tunnel discovered along the U.S.-Mexican border, but it is extremely elaborate and very, very sophisticated in nature.  And to the DEA and our intelligence-driven operations and investigations similar to this operation, this discovery, it's—I think it's indicative of the operation or the organization behind the tunnel itself.  So without question, I mean, there varying degrees of levels within the tunnel to provide a unique benefit to the traffickers. 

COSBY:  How long, John, do you think it would have taken to build something like this?  And also, aren't you astounded this was right under your noses?

FERNANDES:  Well, it's labor-intensive.  And again, when they construct these tunnels, it's not as if, you know, when we see construction with the cranes, with the cranes outside and the buildings going up.  This is done underground, and it's extremely difficult to monitor and track this type of activity. 

COSBY:  John, do you think several years to make or months?  What are we talking, to build something as elaborate as this? 

FERNANDES:  Well, I could tell you part of our investigation, certainly, is an analysis.  We'll do an analysis of the soil and of the materials.  We have engineers involved with doing some follow-up on this.  So we don't know exactly, but that's certainly part of our investigation. 

COSBY:  I understand—I know that two tons of marijuana were seized.  But I'm also told you're doing some forensics to detect if anything else was being transported.  What else are you looking for, John?

FERNANDES:  That's correct.  Well, certainly, you know, the discovery of tunnels is of great concern.  Obviously, tunnels pose a significant threat to the safety and security of the American people.  If tunnels could be used for trafficking and drugs, obviously they can also be used for trafficking in illegal aliens, trafficking in arms, explosives.

And, of course, we're very conscientious—I want to point out here -

·         along the southwest border, there is a very strong alliance between DEA and our other federal partners.  And the irony here is I consider the discovery of tunnels as a success, because we've been successful in thwarting their efforts above ground along the southwest border, and we've generally driven them underground. 

COSBY:  You know, Misha, though, there has been a number of discoveries in San Diego, right?  This is not the first one that we've seen, even just in the last few months?

PAISTRO:  That's correct.  I think this is the fourth this year, but, again, by far the most elaborate. 

COSBY:  Yes, it really is incredible stuff.  Guys, if you could stick with us.

Because, of course, the discovery of this tunnel is raising new questions about security along America's borders.  Joining us to talk about what needs to be done to keep our borders safe is Juan Hernandez.  He's a former Mexican migration minister and also former adviser to President Vicente Fox.

And we're also joined by California State Senator Bill Morrow, who has called on Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger to declare a state of emergency on the border.  Senator Morrow, how outraged, when you hear about this discovery? 

BILL MORROW ®, CALIFORNIA STATE SENATOR:  Well, I'm outraged about

what's happening with illegal immigration in general, but, no, I'm

delighted that we found—this is a law enforcement success.  And I think

the Drug Enforcement Agency official hit it right on the button.  The fence

·         I mean, this demonstrates that the border fence is a success.  We're driving them underground.  It makes it easier to find them, in that respect. 

COSBY:  And, Juan, let me get you to respond to what—first this is what a U.S. Customs agents said earlier today.  Take a listen. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL UNZUETA, CUSTOMS SPECIAL AGENT:  When we find these tunnels, we see that as a vulnerability to our national security.  Whether the tunnel was used to smuggle aliens or whether the tunnel was used to smuggle narcotics or, in a worse case scenario, some sort of weapon that would be smuggled in and directed at the United States. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, Juan, this is obviously pretty serious stuff, if something were to be transported in a tunnel, like we've seen.  Is the Mexican government doing enough?

JUAN HERNANDEZ, FORMER MEXICAN MIGRATION MINISTER:  Well, yes, I believe so.  This tunnel was discovered by Mexico.  And I think that we should be applauding Mexico.

But I think that we must—I think that it's important that we have this type of debate going on.  And I'm glad that you have these guests on, Rita, because this is also a debate that's going on within the hearts, I think, of most Americans.

After September 11th, we do have some fear there related to terrorism, but we have to remember who the enemy is.  The enemy is not Mexico.  The enemy is very clearly the drug trafficker.  The enemy is the pusher in our schools in the United States.  Once again, the enemy is not Mexico.  Thank you, Mexico, for fining that tunnel. 

COSBY:  No, and absolutely, look, they did do a good job.  It was a cooperative effort, as we just heard.

You know, Senator Morrow, last night we have a sheriff on, on the flip side.  And it brings out the bigger picture, because the sheriff was talking about a recent seizure that was taking place and some Humvees were caught in the crowd.  Guys were wearing military uniforms, Mexican military uniforms.  This is what the sheriff told us last night. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF ARVIN WEST, TEXAS:  This is typical for their actions in our area.  We've had an incident a few months back, or a month or so ago, where a dump truck, same type of scenario, where the military stood the officers off, used a bulldozer, hooked onto the truck, and pulled it back across the Rio Grande.  It's an everyday occurrence down here. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Senator Morrow, what's the solution? 

MORROW:  Well, it is an everyday occurrence.  And border officials have acknowledged that for sometime.  And we've had these types of encouragements for sometime.  And we need to do something about it, such as -- I can tell you, you wouldn't have these drive-overs by Mexican army officials in Humvees or anybody else, drug agents or anybody else, if you had a fence along the border.  They would have to do what apparently they did in this case, which took an incredible amount, I'm sure, of time and expense, and was very costly to build that tunnel.  They have to be—they have to be driven underground. 

COSBY:  Juan, what about the fence? 

HERNANDEZ:  Well, we have to remember that the people south of our border are our friends.  They're our number-two partner, number-two trading partner.  And by the way, there are 42 millions of Hispanics who have families south of the border. 

We're not talking about the enemy.  The enemy is the drug trafficker, the who traffics with people also.  And by the way, God bless those immigrants that the other people have been bashing here on your show.  They are doing wonderful things for our nation in the United States. 

COSBY:  Senator Morrow, what do you have to say?  And also, what these group, these vigilante groups, like Minutemen and those others, who are sort of taking it into their own hands?

MORROW:  Well, I mean, look, I am a Minuteman.  I've been there.  I've seen the border.  And I'm kind of scratching my head. 

I mean, there are so many areas where you don't have to go to this elaborate tunnel, you can just go drive across, as is happening, you've heard officials are acknowledging. 

What we need to do is to extend the border fence everywhere that we can to make it as difficult and as costly as possible.  It's not just—I mean, look, we're talking about...

(CROSSTALK)

MORROW:  ... we're talking about drug smuggling.  We are talking about illegal immigration.  We are talking about, yes, the possibility of incursion by terrorists.  But more than anything else, we're talking about America's right and obligation, sovereign opportunity to secure its own borders. 

COSBY:  All right.  It's going to have to be the last word.  I would love to have both of you back on.  Thank you.

And still ahead, everybody, a new cruise ship case.  Carnival Cruise Lines facing an ugly lawsuit about sexual assault at sea.  How often does it happen?  One of my guests says a lot.

Plus, “Survivor” winner Richard Hatch is behind bars tonight.  But does his lawyer have some evidence that could get him out?  He'll tell me LIVE & DIRECT.  He's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  A new cruise ship controversy now involving another cruise line.  Carnival is now being forced to reveal something they don't want to, how many sexual assault and harassment cases by crew members that they've had over the last three years.  A Miami judge made the order yesterday after a woman claimed she was assaulted on board. 

But get this:  The judge says the number of overall assaults will stay secret.  And guess who's making that request?  Attorney James Walker is working on that harassment case against Carnival.  You may recall he's also the attorney for Jennifer Hagel-Smith, the wife of missing honeymooner George Smith, who disappeared on a Royal Caribbean ship last July. 

So will Royal Caribbean be next in releasing their crime records and all other cruise lines?  Joining me now is former chief of security for Carnival, Chuck Harris.  We also have travel editor for “Travelage West” Magazine, Ana Figueroa. 

And just to let our viewers know, we did reach out to Carnival Cruise Lines, but they had no comment at this time. 

Chuck, I want to show some numbers.  These were 1999 numbers, because these were the last known numbers that have been released.  And it says—this is when Carnival released its numbers back then.  It says that they reported 108 allegations of sexual assault aboard its ships.  That was during a five-year period.  What do you make of those numbers?  And what do you think might come out now, at least to the judge? 

CHUCK HARRIS, FORMER SECURITY CHIEF, CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES:  Well, in the time when they released him back there in 1998 and everything, they said 108 to 128.  I think you're going to see the same number, if not maybe a larger number.  It's still going on.  There's cases being filed monthly.  And this isn't the first one, you know?  It's still happening. 

COSBY:  Ana, do you think the numbers should be made public?  I mean, the judge is going to see them, but why not make them go to the public if there's nothing to hide? 

ANA FIGUEROA, TRAVEL EDITOR, “TRAVELAGE WEST”:  Well, look, it's not a matter of whether there's something to hide, Rita.  I mean, this is typical in civil litigation, and I am an attorney, as well as a journalist.  And I can tell you that anytime there's privacy issues, third-party privacy issues, at stake, of course the judge is going to keep it secret.  So it's nothing nefarious or something that, you know, we should look askance at Carnival for doing. 

COSBY:  You know, Chuck, I want to show some numbers.  This is 11 million people, a big amount of people take cruises.  This was back in 2004.  And the FBI says 50 cruisers are crime victims each year, just 50.  About half of the reported incidents involve sexual assaults.  Twenty are assaults.  Ten percent involve a missing person. 

You know, these are pretty small numbers, if you look at the amount of people who are on cruises, Chuck. 

HARRIS:  Well, it's true that it's a small number of those that actually report, but what is the percentage of those that don't report, don't know how to report, don't know that they have the right in their individual right?  It is awful hard.  Most people don't realize they can report it and that it is investigated. 

You know, it's not criticizing the cruise line industry, but people's rights, they don't know they can.  They think they're on a foreign flag ship and they have no rights.

COSBY:  But again, Ana, then that's not necessarily the fault of the cruise line.  That's the passengers, right? 

FIGUEROA:  Well, yes, and I don't agree with that. 

(CROSSTALK)

FIGUEROA:  I mean, if you're on—look, if you're on a cruise ship, you are surrounded by staff, by crew.  People will complain about, you know, if their pillow wasn't soft enough.  Trust me.  You know, if they're the victim of a crime or an alleged crime, they know how to report it. 

HARRIS:  No.

FIGUEROA:  So, I mean, I think this business that there's these hidden numbers... 

COSBY:  Chuck, go ahead.

FIGUEROA:  ... is just not supported by any fats.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS:  I disagree with her.  I disagree with her strongly because they don't know what's going on.  They're scared. 

The cruise lines is not that forthwith coming about helping them, trying to report them, telling them that they have the rights to contact the FBI, that they have individual rights.  They're not always that forthwith coming.

Look at what we're seeing on the Royal Caribbean case.  Look at some of the other cases in which they have not conducted good, quality investigations.  Now, you tell me they're forthwith coming?  Come on.  Give me the truth.  If they were, why isn't the investigations doing? 

COSBY:  Ana, go ahead.

FIGUEROA:  Well, I think the point is that cruise lines are complying with a law that they're supposed to comply with.  I think there's been a lot of reckless and unfounded allegations about some high-profile cases that have gotten into the public discourse lately. 

But from there, we cannot make a quantum leap in logic to say that there's some sort of, you know, scheme on the part of cruise ships to keep quiet, people, you know, the amount of crime that might take place on a cruise ship or that cruise lines deliberately, you know, try to prevent people from exercising their rights. 

I think, if anything, we've seen the opposite, certainly with the Royal Caribbean case, where the executives who have come on to tell us exactly what went on.  They have been very forthcoming and very transparent, as to what they did.  And, you know, no one has proved otherwise that they have failed to comply with any kind of international law, local law, any kind of federal law they might be subject to. 

COSBY:  And, of course, Ana, the family of George Smith begs to differ on that point.

FIGUEROA:  Well, I know that.

HARRIS:  Yes.

COSBY:  Thank you, both of you, very much.  We appreciate it. 

Well, there's a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight.  Let's check in, if we could, with Joe Scarborough now with a preview of what's ahead—

Joe? 

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Rita, as you know, it was a showdown in Chitown, Oprah Winfrey's studio.  Really.  I mean, it was high noon, had James Frey coming in, trying to defend himself.  But Oprah went on the attack. 

Just an—you talk about a story that really hits “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”  I can tell you, so many people just stopped, turned on the TV, and saw this incredible showdown of a woman who really is one of the greatest forces in American pop culture.  We're going to be talking about Oprah Winfrey, her apology, and whether it went far enough for her to regain her credibility with her millions and millions of fans—Rita? 

COSBY:  And, Joe, it was interesting to watch.  She really laid into him, and we'll be tuning in, Joe.  Thanks so much. 

SCARBOROUGH:  She did.  All right.

COSBY:  Thanks, Joe

And coming up, Richard Hatch's attorney says the “Survivor” winner is innocent and he has the papers to prove it.  So why didn't the court agree?  The exclusive details are coming up next.  And the attorney's coming up. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD HATCH, “SURVIVOR” WINNER:  I'm always happy to pay my taxes, but I believed the taxes on that particular amount were going to be paid either by CBS or withheld by them. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And tonight, exclusive details in the case of “Survivor” Richard Hatch, behind bars at this hour in a Massachusetts jail.  The season one “Survivor” winner was convicted of tax evasion, for failing to pay the taxes on his $1 million winnings from the reality TV show.  But his attorney says the show should have paid those taxes. 

Hatch could be facing up to 13 years in prison and a fine of $600,000. 

Joining me now LIVE & DIRECT is Hatch's attorney, Michael Minns.

You know, Michael, we have this contract.  We obtained the contract.  And in it, it says—I want to read a quote—it says, “The grand prize for winning 'Survivor' is $1 million, less all applicable withholdings, deductions and taxes.”

I mean, it sounds pretty straightforward.  Why is your client innocent if it says right there he should pay the taxes? 

MICHAEL MINNS, RICHARD HATCH'S ATTORNEY:  There's two reasons why he's innocent.  And the first, which I haven't read it, the first is the jury found him not guilty on seven of the 10 charges, so the jury found him innocent on 70 percent. 

The second reason is this:  Richard wasn't supposed to win the show.  They tried to rig it against him.  He caught them, he stopped it, and he had a private meeting with Mr. Burnett.  And after that, he thought they were going to pay his taxes if he won the show. 

They promised him that the cheating would stop, the competitors would not be fed anymore by the camera people, and it did.  The cheating did stop.  And they had a private meeting.  And after that, he thought the show was going to cover that. 

COSBY:  Well, in fact, one of the jurors, you know, seemed fairly sympathetic.  I want to show a clip.  This is Richard Leonard.  He's one of the jurors, and he spoke to WJAR.  And he said that he found Hatch persuasive.  Let me play that. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD LEONARD, JUROR IN RICHARD HATCH CASE:  He went through a veritable hell, probably, on that show, in reading the contract and the control that they had over him, and that when he actually was handed that million dollars, he probably felt as though he was deserving of all of it, which would be human nature and, of course, wrongly so.  And I think his human nature took over and to his own demise. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, Mike, I think a lot of people can understand that. 

You get caught up in the moment and you don't read all the fine print.  What about his CPA?  Why isn't his CPA, who I would assume would have been guiding him, why isn't that person in jail? 

MINNS:  The CPA decided not to guide him, told him to get the documentation, told him to do the tax preparation work, prepared the return, prepared two returns, actually.  Both of them were wrong.  She told him in writing to file a return that she knew was wrong.  And that's a question that other people ought to be asking, too.  Well, she's got an immunity agreement with the government for her testimony. 

COSBY:  But is there something even on the computer?  Is there track records to maybe bring her up, because I would think that'd be very powerful to help him?

MINNS:  What the jury needed to know, and that good man that you just talked to who found him innocent on seven counts needed to know, was that the show was rigged.  They tried to—Richard wasn't supposed to win.  He was supposed to be the gay, evil, sinister person, and he was supposed to be the villain. 

He wasn't a villain, and he won the show, but he wasn't supposed to win.  He wasn't supposed to live happily ever after.  He wasn't supposed to get the million dollars.  He caught them cheating, and he made an agreement with Mr. Burnett to stop the cheating.  His CPA did not ask the necessary questions.  She told him to do it. 

COSBY:  Yes, it sounds like she really dropped the ball, if that's the case.  You know, let me show a quote.  We had Dr. Sean Kenniff, who was also one of the other contestants, talked to him a little bit about the case last night and also about taxes and what maybe was going on, on “Survivor.”

MINNS:  I'd love to talk a little bit about...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN KENNIFF, FORMER “SURVIVOR” CONTESTANT:  I think we all just kind of assumed, and maybe a passing comment here and there from one of the producers, we might have been told that.  But nothing was concrete about that.  But I think we all just assumed that we would be paying taxes. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Michael, really quick, do you think there's some other shenanigans with other “Survivor” contestants, real quick? 

MINNS:  Well, absolutely.  Sean's a good man, but Sean did not even file his 2000 tax return and didn't report any of the $65,000 that he won on the show.  Why is he allowed to pay out and Richard not? 

Richard tried for five years, tried to make an agreement with the government to pay what he owed, tried to come to an agreement. 

This is exceedingly complicated tax return.  Even the studios got it wrong.  They created the wrong 1099.  I wish we had been able to tell that good juror that you interviewed all the facts.  And I wish Sean had been in a position where he felt comfortable testifying to what his tax situation was. 

COSBY:  I can tell you certainly some different sides of the case that I have not heard before.  Michael, thank you for being here.  We really appreciate you being here.  And we'll be right back, everybody.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Tonight, a driver with a bad case of road rage turns a gun on innocent bystanders while leading police on a high-speed chase in Texas.  Officers tried to pull him over, but the angry driver just became more agitated.  He started firing his gun, and the police finally apprehended the driver on a dead-end street.  He was shot in the arm and is now behind bars.

And that does it for me on LIVE & DIRECT tonight.  I'm Rita Cosby. 

“SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with Joe and Oprah starts right now—Joe?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

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