Guests: Joe Dwinell, Wendy Murphy, Gerry Leone, Vito Colucci, Jose Luis Valdes, Luis Carillo, Lisa Zuniga Duran, Helen Simotas, Paul Ambriz, L.T. “Butch” Bradt, Jayne Weintraub, John F. Gilbride
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. We‘ve got the man who captured these dramatic pictures of a police officer shooting an unarmed airman just back from duty in Iraq. Was the shooting way out of line? The photographer‘s going to join me LIVE AND DIRECT for his first television interview.
And just when you thought you heard it all when it comes to smuggling drugs, this has to be the worst—drug puppies. We will explain.
But we start with some late-breaking developments in a murder mystery unfolding on two continents tonight, the brutal killings of Rachel Entwistle and her 9-month-old baby, Lillian, in Massachusetts. Rachel and her baby daughter were buried just a few hours ago in a single casket. Her husband, Neil, did not fly home from England for today‘s service in Massachusetts. He is believed to still be in the U.K., where he was last seen leaving his parents‘ home in Nottinghamshire late last night.
And there is some breaking information coming from London at this hour, including some new information about a very bizarre phone call between Neil and his father-in-law. “The Sun” newspaper is quoting a family source who says that Neil Entwistle reportedly called Rachel‘s family and said, quote, “I can‘t remember how I got to England. Is it true Rachel and Lillian are dead?”
We‘ve got the story covered live on both continents right now. From Boston, I‘m joined by Joe Dwinell. He‘s the managing editor with Herald Media, part of the Boston Herald Group. And on the phone from London is Dan Hausle. He‘s with the Boston NBC affiliate WHDH.
Joe, let me start with you. We just got some sound in, in fact, from the funeral. It‘s pretty interesting, and I want to play—this is a comment from a teacher. This is a male teacher who points out Neil, the husband, was not mentioned once.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLIE SORRENTO, HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER: It went as well as it could possibly go for two young people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there any mention of Neil?
SORRENTO: No. No, not at all. Not at all. That whole situation is baffling to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Joe, it‘s awfully strange that the husband‘s not mentioned one time. What is that sort of saying to you?
JOE DWINELL, MANAGING EDITOR, HERALD MEDIA: Well, once again, it‘s the glaring omission. The family is not mentioning his name. They are purposefully leaving him out of everything—obituaries, family statements, and as you‘ve just shown, today at the funeral.
COSBY: What are you also hearing, Joe? This is the quote—if I can even put it up again—this is from “The Sun” newspaper. I think this is so powerful, saying, “I can‘t remember how I got to England. Is it true Rachel and Lillian are dead?” what do you know? Do you know—can you confirm that this call was made? What are you hearing from your sources?
DWINELL: Well, I cannot confirm that. That—we did have that in our story, crediting “The Sun” newspaper. It‘s an amazing allegation they‘re making, and it‘s just another interesting piece to this puzzle.
COSBY: Yes, boy, is it. And Dan, you‘re over there. What are you hearing from that side of the coast? Are you hearing that this is true, that he did place some bizarre calls?
DAN HAUSLE, WHDH-TV: Well, unfortunately, the silence is definitely coming out of his family and himself. I‘ve tried to ask questions of his brother, of his mother as they‘ve gone in, and they won‘t say anything about what‘s happened. Bubbling underneath this is the suggestion that somehow Neil is as much a victim as his family, that his story might be somehow that he either witnessed this or that he came upon this or knew what happened, and somehow came to England upset, but not calling police until after he found out.
COSBY: Is that what you‘re hearing, or is that just among the options tonight, Dan?
HAUSLE: No one‘s saying this directly. No one has any direct information. That‘s why this “Sun” story is so stunning because nobody has been able to get to any family members who may have been talking to Neil, and Neil himself is not talking. So there is no direct information. A lot of this is speculation and suggestions from sources about what Neil is or may be saying.
COSBY: And Joe, what about his—we understand his father-in-law has some guns, even similar to, what, like, .22-caliber, which is what they believe that Rachel and the baby were killed with. Is there any evidence that the guns were used or taken?
DWINELL: No. Right now, law enforcement sources tell us that that is an area they may be looking at. The state police, we do know—we just learned tonight—had a big top-level meeting on this. They are looking at all possibilities, but yet they are waiting for that big break in the case, and it hasn‘t come yet.
COSBY: What about the dog, also, Joe? There was a dog, I understand, that they own. In fact, we even have some pictures of the dog. Do we know if the dog was barking? In other words, an intruder coming in? Did neighbors hear anything unusual?
DWINELL: No, they didn‘t. I mean, I asked that specific question. Our reporters asked that question. The police are saying, No comment. It goes back to how many times the police went into the home back on January 21, January 22, until they ultimately found the bodies of the murdered mother and her little baby girl.
COSBY: You know, Dan, you‘re over there in England. Do we know exactly where Neil is? The last report is we heard he was leaving with one suitcase from his family‘s house. Are authorities closing in on him?
HAUSLE: Well, (INAUDIBLE) that‘s one suitcase that he left with his mother and his father. None of them have returned to the house at this time. Nobody knows where they are. The suggestion is they do have family and friends they could be staying with. Police won‘t say where they were taken, but the district attorney back in Massachusetts says they‘re in conversation with Scotland Yard and with local police. They feel comfortable that either they know where Neil is or that they can find him, if they need to.
COSBY: All right, both of you, please keep us posted on any developments. We appreciate it.
So do all signs point to Neil Entwistle‘s guilt? Joining us tonight are former Massachusetts prosecutors Wendy Murphy and Gerry Leone, and also private investigator Vito Colucci.
You know, Wendy, let me—let me put up this statement again because, again, this is just from “The Sun” newspaper. “The Herald” hasn‘t confirmed it, but we are hearing that they were getting some information that it may be pointed in this direction. If, indeed, he places a call to his father-in-law saying, quote, “I can‘t remember how I got to England. Is it true Rachel and Lillian are dead?” What do you make of that statement, Wendy?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, forgive me for laughing, but, “I don‘t know how I got to England”?
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: Yes...
(CROSSTALK)
MURPHY: That‘s a mighty long blackout!
COSBY: What does that say, you know, that was he on drugs or got transported with a bag on his head?
MURPHY: Come on! I mean, first of all, it‘s called a plane. And I don‘t think there‘s any doubt he knows how he got there. He bought a ticket, and I‘m hearing that it was a one-way ticket, which speaks volumes about whether he thought he was ever coming back.
Look, there‘s no doubt in my mind that he made the call. I have heard that he did, in fact, make a call and speak with Rachel‘s family. I can‘t confirm that he made those particular remarks, but I think it‘s awfully convenient that it‘s a U.K. newspaper putting that nonsense out there right now because what it sounds like is the little baby seedlings of a rather ridiculous insanity defense, or what we have here in Massachusetts, a diminished capacity defense...
COSBY: Gerry, that‘s exactly where I was headed.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Does that sound like laying the seeds there?
MURPHY: Yes! And I—and I don‘t think...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Let me get Gerry in real quick, Wendy.
MURPHY: Oh. Excuse me. I‘m sorry.
GERRY LEONE, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I agree with Wendy, it certainly sounds like the beginning of the “dazed and confused” defense by Neil Entwistle. And he may be feeling the pressure of this thing bearing down on him. The authorities in Massachusetts are working hard every day, and what began as a presumption is probably becoming a closer, tighter case against him.
COSBY: You know, and Vito, Wendy said some good stuff. She was just saying maybe a one-way ticket, the fact that he was on that plane—I bet you, Vito, they‘re going to want to talk to other people who were on that flight.
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: If I‘m the lead investigator, now
that he‘s trying this insanity defense type of thing—if that is for sure
I want to talk to who was around him on that plane. I want to see what his actions were. If there was meals served, I want to see his interaction with the stewardess, even where he checked in. I mean, come on. This guy bought a ticket, drove to the airport, checked in, sat on a plane for hours. But you have to talk to these people as soon as possible so they don‘t forget the events and how this guy was acting. It‘s ridiculous, Rita.
COSBY: You know, Vito, I want to put up the timeframe because we still don‘t know exactly when Rachel and Lillian were killed. I want to show what we know. First, they were last heard from on Thursday. We think that they were killed either late Friday or Saturday. And again, Neil‘s flight, if we believe if he took this one—and again, maybe one-way, as Wendy was saying—believed to be at 8:15 in the morning on Saturday, about 12 hours before police first even checked the house to begin with. And then the bodies, remember, were found the next day.
Vito, how tough is it going to be to sort of hone that accurate timeframe?
COLUCCI: Well, you know, I know Wendy‘s going to disagree with me on this, but being an ex-cop myself, I think a little better search, not just going in and taking a glance around, OK? It‘s very important. You could have locked in this timeline a lot better, as far as the cause of death.
And then, not only that, think of the long-range repercussions down the road when a good defense attorney starts bringing in the cops and the friends and family that walked through the house and said, Did you see a body? Did you see a body? Maybe there wasn‘t a body there. Maybe by the time a body was there, my guy was in England. So nobody‘s thinking about that.
COSBY: Wendy, go ahead, real quick.
MURPHY: Yes, and Vito, maybe some Martians flew in from the planet Deton (ph) and did it.
(LAUGHTER)
MURPHY: Look, you got to remember why the police didn‘t go snooping around in detail is because they didn‘t have a warrant. There‘s a 4th Amendment interest there. And I‘ll tell you something. If they had snooped around, lifting up bed covers, a particularly private place in the home, I‘ll tell what defense attorneys would have done, they would have moved to suppress any evidence that implicated Neil during that very intense search that you want, Vito, and they would have won because there was no search warrant.
And then everybody who‘s complaining they didn‘t look good enough the first time around would be complaining, How dare they looked so deeply because they screwed up the case. That‘s why they didn‘t do it. It was the right thing to do.
COSBY: You know, Gerry, let me bring in access, though. This is one of the things we‘re hearing, that the neighbors—and again, these were fairly new neighbors—remember, they just moved into the house 10 days before—had the access code to get into the garage. Does that open the opportunity, Gerry, to maybe someone else?
LEONE: Well, any time you‘re trying to piece together what happened in a crime scene like this, access to the crime scene‘s extremely important. However, I don‘t think that fact takes the authorities off of the path that they‘re on, and I don‘t think it‘ll be problematic.
You know, as far as the wellbeing search that the police did, it‘s really contextual. You have to remember, like, Wendy said, it‘s a minimal, limited authorized search to just see if there is any obvious signs of wrongdoing. And as I understand the evidence, there was a bunch of puffy bedding on top of the bed, and unless one had looked under that bedding and peeled it back, you weren‘t going to see what ultimately and tragically they found.
COSBY: And Gerry, let me show a quote. This is from the DA‘s office, actually. This is Emily Lagrasse (ph), who is with the DA‘s office there in Middlesex county. She says, “There‘s no warrant for his arrest, so at this point, he‘s free to do whatever he likes. It‘s not as though if he‘s on U.S. soil, the situation is different.”
How complicated does this make it, Gerry? He‘s over there. We don‘t even really know where he is, at this point. Is there a concern that he may flee from wherever he is right now?
LEONE: Well, usually what happens in circumstances like this is there‘s close collaboration and cooperation between the countries. And I‘d be very surprised if the U.K. authorities aren‘t keeping close tabs on him as a person of interest, if for no other reason they eventually want to have a conversation with him. And there may be—then there may come a time when the district attorney here, a very experienced district attorney, may need to make a decision about whether he‘s allowed to go from where he is now.
COSBY: All right, both of you, thank you very much. And Wendy, stick with us. I know we‘re going to have you a little later on in the show. Vito and Gerry, thank you very much.
And of course, everybody, we want to hear from you. If you have any questions you want answered on this unsolved case or if you have any tips that you want us to investigate—saw something, heard something—please send that information to us on the Web at rita.msnbc.com. Again, rita.msnbc.com. We‘ll try to get as many of your questions answered on our show. And also, we‘ve got information also on our blog.
And coming up, everybody, a shocking story of a teacher and student in a bizarre custody battle. And that‘s not all tonight. Take a look.
Still ahead, another LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive, the photographer who caught these shocking pictures. His camera catches a police officer pulling the trigger three times on a suspect just a few feet away. But do the pictures tell the whole story? He joins me live.
And after having a baby with his own teacher, a 17-year-old boy says he‘s now up to the challenge of raising his 2-year-old. He and the teacher are coming up live and will tell us why they‘re fighting for custody.
And smugglers find a sick new tactic to get drugs across the border. You won‘t believe how they use these adorable puppies in a multi-million-dollar drug scheme. It‘s coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIELA CARRION, SHOOTING VICTIM‘S WIFE: My husband was surrendering. They shot him. They shot him on the shoulder, on the chest and one on his leg.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Tonight, an exclusive interview with the man who caught the dramatic images of that shooting that you just saw caught on tape. We have to warn you, the video is very graphic. A California man on leave from service in Iraq is shot after a brief police chase. Elio Carrion was the passenger in the car, but was ordered to the ground by a local sheriff‘s deputy. Carrion was allegedly trying to surrender when the sheriff‘s deputy opened fire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) all right (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And we‘re going to get to the exclusive interview in a moment, but first, reporter Mary Parks with NBC station KNBC joins us live tonight. Mary, what‘s the latest with the case?
MARY PARKS, KNBC-TV: Well, Rita, first of all, the FBI is now involved. But I wanted to tell you these men in—two young men have been best friends since high school here in Montclair (ph), California. And tonight, the driver of that car is pretty much blaming himself for what happened and is offering an apology to his friend and his family.
But this afternoon, we took a closer look at the videotape in question, and that tape is also being examined at this hour by the FBI.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) Sunday‘s controversial shooting, Luis Fernando Escobedo was able to visit his best friend in the hospital. Senior airmen Elio Carrion had just returned from a six-month tour in Iraq when he was shot by a sheriff‘s deputy.
LUIS FERNANDO ESCOBEDO, ELIO CARRION‘S FRIEND: Right when I walked in, I gave him a hug and a kiss. I‘m sorry. And we just—we said we‘re still brothers.
PARKS: Carrion was a passenger in Escobedo‘s Corvette that led San Bernardino County sheriff‘s deputies on a short 100-mile-per-hour chase. Though Escobedo was not hurt, he was briefly jailed for felony evading.
ESCOBEDO: I feel I‘m responsible for this. Elio had nothing to do with this. That‘s why, again, I‘d like to apologize to his family for everything that they‘ve been going through.
PARKS: On this home video, it appears the deputy kicks Carrion, who was on his hands and knees. The 40-second tape also appears to show 21-year-old Carrion down and pleading with the deputy that he is in the military and not armed. At one point, a voice is heard saying “Get up,” as the deputy‘s gun appears to gesture upward.
Escobedo says it was the deputy who ordered his friend to get up off the ground.
ESCOBEDO: I seen that video just last night when I got out, and right when I seen it, just to hear Elio scream like that when he got shot, it just took me back to when it happened.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PARKS: A very difficult day for those two young men, indeed. Tonight Escobedo has simply been released from the county jail here in San Bernardino, pending further review. At this time, though, no charges have been filed. Carrion, meantime, could be released from the hospital in just a couple of days. And the deputy? He remains on paid administrative leave while the FBI investigates—Rita.
COSBY: Mary, thank you very much. We really appreciate it.
And now to a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive. The man who taped those shocking images is speaking out for the very first time on national television. LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is Jose Luis Valdes. He is here with Mr. Valdes‘s attorney, Luis Carillo.
Jose, let me start with you, first of all. Why did you think it was important to take this video, to take this tape?
JOSE LUIS VALDES, VIDEOTAPED SHOOTING: Oh, I don‘t know. That was a surprise to me. I not planning to take this video. (INAUDIBLE) You know, I‘m really tired (ph). I just hate to be—you know, that—this—I don‘t know (INAUDIBLE) that—I do the right thing, OK? I see what happened. I take (INAUDIBLE) the video. I got everything down.
I go inside to my house, watch my two daughter cry, watching my wife very nervous. I walk into my house, probably waiting more than one hour. I called a friend asking what to recommend to do with the video. He say, You need to do the right thing. I don‘t know. I go inside again. I asking one deputy, Deputy, do you know the young man is fine? He said, yes, he‘s fine. (INAUDIBLE) the hospital. OK.
You know, I have something for you guys see. The police say, What you have? I have the video. I have everything what happened. I like to give you—guy coming. The detective, he say, OK. (INAUDIBLE) bring more people? I say, OK, no problem. He bring a lot of police (INAUDIBLE) very good (INAUDIBLE) everything I think (INAUDIBLE) I think more than (INAUDIBLE) I put the video again (INAUDIBLE) I know these police inside to my house (INAUDIBLE) coming voluntary coming to see the video (INAUDIBLE) the shooting is shocking. Everybody inside the house.
COSBY: And Luis—and Luis (INAUDIBLE) I mean, you did do the right thing. You gave it to the cops. And I know a lot of people are commending you for that. Luis, let me bring you in real quick, you know, your attorney there. Luis, tell me, does Jose think that this guy did anything to provoke this, the guy on the ground do anything wrong, Luis?
LUIS CARILLO, JOSE VALDES‘S ATTORNEY: No, he—obviously, he did not. The young man on the ground did nothing to provoke this incident. The police officer, he broke rules of proper police tactics, which is to contain and control the person that you‘re dealing with—in this case, this young man. He contained him. He had him controlled on the ground. There was no need for the police officer to ask him to get up. That was against proper police tactics. You have to wait for other officers so that with other officers, they could handcuff him. So he was breaking proper police protocol.
And I can only speculate that he wanted to have an excuse so that he could tell his superiors that the young man was trying to attack him so he fired in defense. I think he provoked it, myself.
COSBY: And you know, let me (INAUDIBLE) real quick (INAUDIBLE) show you because the sheriff‘s department did put out a statement, and they said that, “Our homicide division is conducting a thorough investigation. The investigation will examine all the evidence.”
Luis, real quick, and then I‘ll ask Jose also—what do you think should happen? The sheriff‘s deputy is right now on paid leave. Do you think something that more serious happened here?
CARILLO: No, the sheriff‘s deputy should be in jail at this moment. Had it been any other person in the community doing what this deputy did to that young man, firing three rounds at point-blank range in an effort to kill him—thank God the young man survived—anybody else would have been in jail right now. This sheriff‘s deputy is—obviously, he‘s above the law because he‘s not in jail.
COSBY: And Jose...
CARILLO: And too many times...
COSBY: Jose, real quick, too. You got five seconds. What do you think should happen in this case, from your opinion? Five seconds.
VALDES: I know what I see. I know everybody watching the video (INAUDIBLE) go to any (INAUDIBLE) The (INAUDIBLE) see in my eyes, I never forget. (INAUDIBLE) he‘s supposed to protect the people, say to young guy of 21 years old, military, OK, he serve this country. One of the police guys say, Get out! Get out! He shoot him. (INAUDIBLE) Get out. Get out. I want to kill you. (INAUDIBLE)
And my daughter, three days later, she asking me, Father, (INAUDIBLE) police shooting one military? He‘s on the same side. (INAUDIBLE) our military (INAUDIBLE) on the same side. Believe me. Believe me. OK. Get out. He shoot him.
COSBY: Right. It‘s a scary...
VALDES: I can‘t forget that one.
COSBY: Well, and...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: ... and you definitely did the right thing, Jose, by handing that over to authorities. And again, you‘re pointing out Elio Carrion, of course, just came back from Iraq. And again, the good news is he is at least alive tonight and doing in better condition. And we thank you for sharing that tape with you, both of you. Thank you very much for being with us.
And everybody, we‘re going to stay on this case and let you know what happens to that man who was shot, and of course, the status of the officer who fired at him. Again, the San Bernardino sheriff‘s office says that it is investigating this incident at this time.
Still ahead: Two years after an affair between a student and a teacher, a toddler is caught in the middle. Coming up, the student and the teacher both join me live with their shocking tales of love and why they both want custody of the baby.
And later: This is almost unspeakable, the cruel new way drug smugglers are sneaking heroin into the U.S. using puppies. That‘s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Once again, here is Rita Cosby.
COSBY: ... custody battle is under way in Texas. A 2-year-old baby girl is caught in the middle of a custody fight between the father, now a 17-year-old teenager, and the mother, his former teacher. We‘re protecting the identities of both the child and her underage father, but the mother, Lisa Zuniga Duran (ph), pleaded guilty in court to having a relationship with her student when he was just 13 years old.
In a minute, the student and his former teacher are going to join me live to explain their sides of the story. But first, Phil Archer with our Houston affiliate KTRC tells us how this all got started.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I feel like someone else has taken her away from me.
PHIL ARCHER, KTRC (voice-over): His childhood ended when he was sexually assaulted by a teacher, but he wants a better life for the baby he says was conceived in that abusive relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That‘s the past. You know, how I look at it, I look at the future. You know, now I have a responsibility to take—you know, to take care of—you know, got a little daughter.
ARCHER: The baby was born after her mother was convicted of sexually assaulting the boy and sentenced to 10 years probation. Lisa Zuniga Duran was a 27-year-old teacher at the Victory Academy, a church school in Pasadena. The boy was a 13-year-old student.
TAMMY AMBRIZ, ANDREW‘S MOTHER: There‘s no way to describe the pain that I went through and what I‘m still going through.
ARCHER: His family was willing to allow Duran to raise the child, as long as she was supervised by her mother and they were allowed visitation. But the family says that changed.
AMBRIZ: She never had no problem with us having any time of visitation with the baby. She met a guy, got married, and totally cut us off.
ARCHER: The family‘s lawyer says there‘s another problem. The baby‘s mother is a registered sex offender.
L.T. “BUTCH” BRADT, ANDREW‘S ATTORNEY: Convicted sex offenders don‘t have unsupervised access to children in this state.
ARCHER (on-screen): Even their own children?
BRADT: Even their own children.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And that was Phil Archer with the Houston NBC affiliate KPRC. Well, the trial for custody of the child begins next month. And joining me now is the former teacher, the baby‘s mother, Lisa Zuniga Duran. Also with her is her attorney, Helen Simotas.
Again, everybody, we‘ve been asked not to use the baby‘s name or show her face, so we (INAUDIBLE) it out in a lot of the photos that we‘re going to show.
You know, Lisa, I want to start with you, because you‘ve had the child for three years. How do you feel about now the father asking for custody?
LISA ZUNIGA DURAN, HAD AFFAIR WITH HER STUDENT: Well, I‘ve never had a problem with him seeing her, but I just feel it‘s really unreasonable now that, after three years, you know? I just want people to think of her best interest. And all she‘s known for the past three years is her mommy, her poppy, and now her new baby sister.
I am married, and I have a new baby. So that‘s all she knows for the past three years. And it would traumatize her to be ripped from her home. I‘ve never objected to him having any visitation. And so this is just really unreasonable.
COSBY: Do you want him, though, to be a big part of the baby‘s life, I mean, now that he‘s getting older, he maybe appreciates what‘s going on?
DURAN: Because we have a no-contact rule, I really don‘t know what he wants or what he feels. The only thing I do know is that, in my criminal court hearing, through his therapist he said that he was a child himself and wanted nothing to do with this child.
And so I went on with my life. I‘ve raised her. I‘ve gotten married to a wonderful man who loves her. I‘ve been with him since she was only four months old. So naturally, that‘s the only father figure she‘s seen in her life.
In the past, they‘ve only came down—they live in another state, as I do. So they‘ve only came down three or four times. And those three or four times I did allow them to visit with her. But there‘s a lot of statements that have been made that are not true. I‘m sure my lawyer can clarify a lot of that about sex offenders not having custody of their children.
COSBY: And let me talk with you a little bit about that, because, of course, the baby‘s father at the time, you know, was very, very young. He was 13. He‘s 17 now. How did you end up falling for a 13-year-old? How did that happen?
HELEN SIMOTAS, ATTORNEY FOR ZUNIGA DURAN: Well, I do want to say, Rita, that—I want to make it clear that she did plead guilty to the offense and is now here fighting for custody of this child. So we don‘t want to get into too much of the details of this child‘s—of this relationship because he is still a minor and we want to respect his privacy.
But she can kind of give you some idea of what conditions and where she was at, because it was an unusual, unnatural circumstance. And in a normal environment, she would have not been attracted to a teenager.
COSBY: Yes, and look, I know you had several months‘ long relationship. I know you did plead guilty.
DURAN: Right.
COSBY: And we‘re going to talk to him in a little bit. But how did you feel about being pregnant at the time? And were you happy to be a mom? Were you—I mean, first you had this sort of illicit affair. And did you know there would be consequences and would have a child?
DURAN: Well, I was not in the right state of mind at the time of my offense. I was starved emotionally. I was living in a religious organization I had gotten into when I was 18. At the time of my offense, I was 27.
And so for nine years, I was not allowed to have any physical contact or any communication with men my own age. So naturally, after nine years, I was lonely, I was desperate, I was starved emotionally. And so I was not thinking reasonably.
I was thinking of my emotions. My thinking was distorted. I have been in therapy for three years. I understand why I committed the offense so that it doesn‘t happen again. And I‘ve created a new history for myself these past three years.
COSBY: And, Helen, that‘s exactly what I want to hit on. What kind of a mom do you think Lisa‘s been? And what kind of communications have been going on between her and Andrew, at least in terms of access to the baby?
SIMOTAS: Well, we‘ve never denied them access to the child, Rita. And we‘ve actually offered them to see this child. And they‘ve refused us, because we‘ve asked the last couple of times—we just wanted them to have supervised visitation.
Because this little girl is three years old now, and she doesn‘t know who these people are. They‘ve really made no real, genuine effort within the last couple of years to really be a part of this child‘s life.
And so, you know, right now, this is a custody battle. And they‘re claiming that, because she is a sex offender that she‘s a danger to her child, but she‘s not a predator. She‘s not a pedophile. She‘s not a danger to her child. And it was never required that she have any supervised access to her own children.
COSBY: And, Lisa, real quick, because I know you don‘t have contact with him, but he is going to be coming up in a few seconds, what do you want to say to Andrew, really quick?
SIMOTAS: She can‘t.
DURAN: We have a no contact—right...
SIMOTAS: She can‘t make any statements to him directly because of the conditions of probation.
DURAN: Right.
COSBY: Not even—OK, all right. Well, both of you, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
SIMOTAS: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you.
And, of course, Lisa Zuniga Duran and her former student, who we‘re going to be calling now only by his first name, Andrew—as you just heard, they‘re not allowed to have any contact to each other, can‘t even make any statements to each other.
Andrew, the biological father, joins us now. He‘s in silhouette tonight, because, as we just heard, he is still a minor. Also joining us is his mother and stepfather, Tammy and Paul Ambriz. And also we have Andrew‘s attorney, L.T. Butch Bradt.
Andrew, how do you feel, just hearing these statements that you just heard from Lisa? How do you feel about that?
ANDREW, HAS CHILD WITH FORMER TEACHER: I feel kind of sacked in a way, but at the same time what she said—you know, I mean, I feel like, you know, I want to be able to see my daughter and stuff. And I think I have the right to, you know?
And I mean, the only way—I mean, the reason why I haven‘t really had a relationship with her is because, you know, she really wouldn‘t let us see the baby, you know? I mean, we go down there like all the time and, like, ever since she met this dude or something, I mean, I guess we‘re, like, too good for her or something. I mean, I don‘t know. But, I mean, she‘s my daughter and stuff. And I just want to be able to see her.
COSBY: Do you think, Andrew, you‘re ready? You know, I mean, you were 13 when you had a relationship. Did you know, first of all, it was wrong when you had that relationship with your teacher at the time? Did you realize what was going on?
ANDREW: Yes, I realized a little bit. But at the same time, you know, I mean, I was just doing what—I mean, to me, I was just like—I liked it. So I mean, I really didn‘t have no clue. I mean, I was young and stuff. I didn‘t know what to do, you know, I mean—she just kind of like, you know, told me—I mean, I don‘t know. It was just...
COSBY: Do you think that she got the maximum punishment? She didn‘t get a lot of—you know, really any punishment. She got a $500 fine, 10 years probation, 30 days in jail. Do you feel that she should have been punished more severely, Andrew?
ANDREW: I mean, maybe, but then again, I mean, I mean, like, I‘m not the judge or nothing so, but, I mean, I mean, that, I mean—I can‘t really comment on that one. I mean...
COSBY: What was your reaction, though, when you found out you‘re going to have a baby with your teacher? What was your reaction?
ANDREW: I was just like, “Wow.” I was just stunned. I was shocked, you know? I mean, yes. I mean, I mean, I was there when it happened. I mean, it takes two to do something. So I mean—and, I mean, I was just kind of was kind of weird. I was just kind of just shocked, you know?
COSBY: But you‘re ready now? You‘re only 17. You think you‘re really ready to now be a father? That‘s a big responsibility.
ANDREW: Yes, it‘s a big responsibility. And really, I‘ll just leave it in God‘s hands, you know? I mean, really, personally, I guess, you know, I‘m ready in a way. But then again, I mean, whatever, I mean, whatever happens happens, so I‘m just happy. As long as I‘ll just be able to see her, that‘s fine with me.
COSBY: Let me bring in your mom and your stepdad, Tammy and Paul.
Why do you think the rights should come your way?
PAUL AMBRIZ, ANDREW‘S STEPFATHER: Pardon me?
COSBY: Why do you think that you should have the rights—that Andrew should have the rights? He feels that they have been cut off. They said that the communication lines have been opened, but I know that you guys feel differently. Why?
P. AMBRIZ: Well, because she‘s a convicted child rapist. And...
COSBY: Are you angry, what he did—she did to your son?
P. AMBRIZ: Well, yes. I mean, any parent—how could you sleep at night knowing there‘s a 2-year-old child sleeping in another home with a convicted rapist? I mean, just because she‘s a woman does not justify her crime.
There are prisons all over the country that have women who molested their own child and did worse. She‘s a convicted child molester, you know? It‘s kind of hard to think that, you know, that she has access to a 2-year-old baby.
COSBY: Tammy, how do you feel? Are you angry, too, as his mother?
TAMMY AMBRIZ, ANDREW‘S MOTHER: Yes, I am. You know, I‘m more hurt than anything, because, you know, I‘ve known Lisa since she was seven. It was shocking. I mean, there‘s no words to describe the pain that a mother goes through when somebody that you love and you trust betrays you.
COSBY: Yes, she was a family friend, a longtime family friend, right?
T. AMBRIZ: Yes, she was.
COSBY: How did you find out?
T. AMBRIZ: My mother called me at home, and she told me.
COSBY: And your jaw must have just dropped.
T. AMBRIZ: Oh, I dropped the phone.
COSBY: And how do you feel towards her now?
T. AMBRIZ: You know, right now, you know, I‘m angry, and I‘m disappointed, because, you know, first off, you know, she—this new husband of hers has not been in Mia‘s (ph) life since she was four months old. That‘s not true, because that‘s not what people in her family tell us.
And she did—she is keeping the child from us. And they haven‘t offered any visitation with us. We‘ve always been the ones to call them wanting to see her. And when they make the arrangement, we‘re already halfway home to Oklahoma. You know, we‘ll be in Dallas, and we‘ll get a phone call—well, they‘ve made the arrangements for you guys to visit with Mia, you know, and...
COSBY: Well, both of you, thank you very much. Tammy and Paul, thank you. And we‘re going to talk to your attorney and Andrew right after the break. If you could both stick with us, we‘d appreciate it.
And still ahead, what does the law say about who is best suited to take care of this toddler? We‘re also going to hear from Andrew‘s attorneys and also our legal eagles.
And up next, they look like ordinary puppies, cute and adorable. Well, wait until you hear the sinister ways smugglers are using them to bring drugs across the border. It is coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And you‘re looking at a silhouette right now of Andrew who had an affair with his teacher when he was 13. He‘s now 17, still a minor.
Andrew, we just have a few seconds left with you. How do you feel about your former teacher? How do you feel about your baby, who‘s now three?
ANDREW: The way I feel about my former teacher, I feel like she‘s wrong for doing what she‘s doing. I never did anything to her. I don‘t understand why she won‘t let me see, you know, my daughter, you know, and...
COSBY: And real quick on your baby—we may lose the satellite—real quick. Do you love your baby?
ANDREW: Yes, yes, I love her, you know. I mean, I really haven‘t got to see her in awhile, but, you know, I still love her, you know.
COSBY: Andrew, thank you very much. Let me bring in your attorney, if I could, attorney L.T. Butch Bradt.
Butch, you know, why are you fighting now? Because he hasn‘t been fighting for the other years, as far as I understand. Why bring the fight now?
L.T. “BUTCH” BRADT, ANDREW‘S ATTORNEY: Rita, that‘s not so. They‘ve been trying for almost two years to see this child. They are not financially well off. They had to look for an attorney who could assist them in this situation. They live in Oklahoma. The fight had to be brought here.
COSBY: And why do you think you have a chance? You believe you‘ve got a good chance, because it doesn‘t seem that she‘s been an unfit mother. There are certain questions about her background, no doubt on that.
BRADT: Well, Rita, there‘s several things. First off, we have to prove—and I have proved—Andrew‘s paternity. The second thing is, as a father, he has a right to access to the child.
COSBY: Are you saying maybe he‘s not the father?
BRADT: No, no. That was not determined in the criminal case. And she would not acknowledge it, so we had to go through the DNA testing in civil court to prove up that he is the father.
And we‘ve had to ask for the court to determine who gets possession of the child, and if we do not get possession of the child, what visitation do we get? Because she has insisted that he have supervised visitation. He‘s not a predator. He‘s not a convicted sex criminal. She is. And there‘s a horrible double-standard here.
COSBY: No, you bet. And it is interesting, because if the shoe was on the other foot, I agree, we might not be talking the same way.
Butch, thank you very much. Please keep us posted, because I want to bring into the conversation—in fact, Butch, stick with us, if you could, because...
BRADT: Thank you. I will.
COSBY: ... let me bring Jayne Weintraub and we also have former prosecutor Wendy Murphy.
Let me hit on what Butch just did. If the shoe were on the other foot, if it was a guy, do you think we‘d even be talking about this right now?
MURPHY: Absolutely not. I mean, a male teacher, an adult, impregnates a 13-year-old student of his, for whatever reason, she gives birth, he becomes the sole custodial parent for a couple of years and then dares to go on television and say, “I think it‘s in the best interest of the child for me to continue to keep custody of the child.”
One‘s a child rapist; one isn‘t. This is not rocket science. She should lose; he should lose. And the fact that he struggled to make his way into the child‘s life is based on his age, his victimization, and his poverty. You can‘t use that against him. This is easy for me, if I‘m the judge.
COSBY: Jayne, Jayne, who gets custody?
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think that you have to have a hearing to determine what‘s in the best interest of the child, not in a court of public opinion but in a courtroom, with psychologists and witnesses, to determine not just by the label of sex offender but by what‘s really best for the child and what kind of mother has she been?
You know, he‘s still very immature. He‘s only 17. It‘s been a tough road for him, as well. And I think only a judge hearing evidence in a courtroom would be able to make that decision.
COSBY: And, Wendy, let‘s talk about the punishment. And I want to go through this with Butch. I was pretty stunned. Again, times have changed. We‘ve heard a lot more in cases, but they‘re all over the board on these cases.
But in her particular case, 10 years probation, 30 days in jail, $500 fine. A several month-long relationship, a baby with the student? You know, Wendy, that seems like sort of a slight slap on the wrist here.
MURPHY: Yes, yes, I‘d call it a pat on the head and a prize. After all, she got to keep the baby, which is unconscionable. You know...
WEINTRAUB: She was in jail pregnant, ladies.
MURPHY: Oh, who cares? My god. There‘s no special exception if you‘re a rapist and you‘re pregnant. Well, then we forgive you your sins.
You know what galled me about listening to that woman? She was blaming God for why she raped a child. I mean, if there‘s one excuse I‘ve never heard before it‘s that it wasn‘t her fault because God made her do it.
Even the rapist priests never blamed God. She‘s not even capable of accepting responsibility, whereas this kid, who‘s still a child, is all over the place saying, “Well, you know, I wish I could do better.”
COSBY: Jayne, Jayne, let me get you in, Jayne, really quick.
MURPHY: He‘s more mature than her.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: She did say what she did was wrong. She did acknowledge that, in fairness to her, Jayne.
WEINTRAUB: Do you know that she‘s not even a convicted felon?
COSBY: Yes, she‘s just a registered...
WEINTRAUB: Her adjudication on the conviction was deferred, Wendy. I mean, you‘re going to label her for the rest of her life based on one act that occurred.
MURPHY: She‘s a rapist.
WEINTRAUB: You can‘t...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: You guys, let me bring in Butch real quick. Butch, when is this going to be resolved? What‘s the time frame we‘re looking at? It starts, right, in a month?
BRADT: March 13th and 14th are our trial dates. It‘s a firm date. And this wasn‘t one time. This is like 30 or 40 different rapes. And if she was a man and had gotten deferred adjudication, CPS would have come in and taken that child and the other child because they won‘t let convicted sex offenders, which she is, have access to children. Why the double-standard?
COSBY: That‘s going to have to be the last word. It is a fascinating case. We‘ll be watching next month. All of you, thank you all very much.
And, Butch, thank you especially.
BRADT: Thank you.
COSBY: Thank you.
And up next, the shocking new way that smugglers are trying to get drugs across the border. This story is going to make a lot of dog-lovers very angry. It‘s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Tonight, drug smuggling agents and drug enforcement agents, rather, have uncovered a cruel new tactic that smugglers are using to sneak heroin into the U.S.
Just a few hours ago, the DEA announced that they had busted a multimillion-dollar drug ring. But what is so disturbing is how they were trying to sneak the drugs over the border. They used Labrador puppies. They cut them open and stuffed them with packages of heroin, then stitched them back up and smuggled them through U.S. customs.
Joining us now LIVE & DIRECT is the DEA special agent in charge of the New York division, John F. Gilbride.
Agent Gilbride, you know, this is shocking. What was your reaction when you heard that they were using puppies?
JOHN F. GILBRIDE, DEA SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: Well, I was appalled. It‘s a disturbing method of drug trafficking that really crosses way out of bounds, in terms of using innocent, small puppies to smuggle heroin, poison, onto the streets of the United States and, in particular, New York City.
COSBY: You know, how—walk us through sort of the chain, because what it starts in, what, Colombia? Walk us through how it ends up on the streets of New York.
GILBRIDE: The streets of New York and, in particular, the Northeast, the majority of the heroin used in the Northeast and in New York comes from Colombia. And in this case, the investigation focused on an organization that was involved in using various methods to smuggle heroin into the United States.
They used these puppies. They used human swallowers that would swallow heroin pellets and then smuggle it in to the United States. They also used false-sided suitcases. They used various methods to get their heroin into the United States and then eventually to the streets of New York.
COSBY: Yes, as we‘re looking at these pictures of these cute puppies, did these puppies survive? Because, as we talked about, they have to cut them open to put the heroin inside and then stitch them back up.
GILBRIDE: Well, what happened was the Colombian national police received a tip that there was a farm in Medellin, Colombia, that they should look at. They went to that farm, and they found a veterinary clinic of sorts.
And at that clinic were 10 puppies. Six of those puppies had liquid heroin surgically implanted into the bellies of the puppies. Three of those puppies, unfortunately, died from infection after these heroin packets were removed from their stomachs.
COSBY: Yes, how dangerous are these Colombians? And what kind of charges do these criminals face tonight?
GILBRIDE: Well, currently they‘re facing charges in New York City, in the eastern district of New York in federal court. And they‘re also facing charges in their own country of Colombia.
COSBY: And most likely will they stay here, be extradited? And how desperate are they to do this to poor, helpless animals?
GILBRIDE: Well, it just goes to show the lengths that a drug trafficking organization will go to smuggle their drugs into the United States. And individuals that use these drugs should think long and hard about how these drugs are getting into the United States, smuggled into bellies of puppies, swallowed by individuals who then travel to the United States and excrete the heroin.
It‘s very disturbing, the lengths that these drug trafficking organizations will go to get their poison onto the streets of New York.
COSBY: Absolutely. Very disturbing. Well, good job on your part.
And good to hear that Colombian officials were also helping in this one.
Thank you very much...
GILBRIDE: Thank you.
COSBY: ... Agent Gilbride. We appreciate it very much. We will stay on this story.
And we‘re also going to be right back with another story of how people are exposing themselves to dangerous predators online.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And tomorrow night, LIVE & DIRECT, people opening themselves up to dangerous online predators. Web sites like MySpace and Friendster.com allow people to tell the world about themselves, even meet new friends. Wait until you see just how much information some people are willing to put on the Internet and how Internet predators are using it against them.
Log onto Rita.MSNBC.com. Send us your questions. We‘re going to try to answer them. “Caught in the Web,” that‘s tomorrow at 9:00.
And now let‘s go to Joe and “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”
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