updated 2/23/2006 11:04:39 AM ET 2006-02-23T16:04:39

Guest:  Steve Emerson; Julia Renfro; Steve Cohen; Vito Collucci; Solovey; Brian Dunkleman; Matt Wilbur; Michael Gottleib

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  We're going to have a lot more on the major feud between Martha Stewart and Donald Trump.  We're going to have “Apprentice” runner-up Kwame Jackson.  And you'll see and hear the videotape of Joran Van Der Sloot and Natalee Holloway together in the same room the very night that she vanished.  What clues can we learn from this tape?  Plus, he was a host on “American Idol,” now he dishes the dirt about America's popular show, and he's going to be with us live.

But we begin tonight with a surprising admission from the White House, that the president himself was not aware that a country with alleged terror links was going to run six of America's largest seaports.  But the administration is still defending the deal to let a company from the United Arab Emirates take over the key ports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY:  The president thought it was very important to go back to each cabinet secretary who has responsibility for this process and ask them, Are you comfortable with this transaction proceeding forward?  And they all said yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  So is the United Arab Emirates, the UAE, friend or foe?  Joining us now is terrorism expert Steve Emerson.  Steve, are they an ally or not?

STEVE EMERSON, TERRORISM ANALYST:  Well, they are an ally of sorts.  It depends who the “they” day is.  There are some members of the kingdom there that—it's a federation—that are really close allies of the United States.  Others aren't.  So it's hard to say.  I would not put them in the total category of the same ally as a European nation would be, but they certainly have exhibited some pro-U.S. policies since 9/11, although I must point out that two of the 9/11 hijackers came from UAE, and also there were even Hamas couriers as late as last year that were sent to the West Bank or Gaza that came in with UAE cash.  So there's still a problem of terrorist-supporting operations.

COSBY:  Yes, in fact, you mentioned two of the hijackers were from there.  Eleven actually traveled through Dubai, and about $125,000, just about half of the money spent on the 9/11 attack, was wired from banks in Dubai.  Separately also, terrorism analyst Bob Newman (ph) called me right before the show, and he found some testimony—this was during the 9/11 commission, Steve.  I don't know if you've heard this, but apparently, there was supposed to be a strike on bin Laden in February 1999.  It was averted because, apparently, there were members of the UAE royal family with bin Laden at that point, showing some pretty strong ties with bin Laden and at least the royal family of the UAE.  What do you say, Steve?

EMERSON:  Well, and in fact, they were one of the three regimes to recognize the Taliban.  And as you've correctly noted, they had—some of the princes there had friendly relationships with Osama bin Laden himself.

Look, the question is whether they've changed since 9/11.  And let's be fair.  I've been looking at this for the last several days, and I still don't have an opinion one way or another, other than to say that it's not clear that I would say that they are 100 percent an enemy or that they are so porous in terms of their security net that they're allowing terrorists to operate all the time.

They have done some very pro-American things.  On the other hand, there still is a problem in terms of their policies of allowing some Hamas networks to survive or to flourish, to allow themselves to use the bank couriers, and they're not cracking down 100 percent in terms of the money laundering that is suspected to go to Islamic militants.

COSBY:  Well, Steve, you talked about security.  Hold on for a moment because just a few hours ago, I actually went to the port of Newark with former New Jersey governor Richard Codey.  This is one of the six key ports which this company from Dubai is going to manage.  And I saw firsthand how vulnerable our nation's ports really are.  Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  Governor, why is this area so critical for the country's security-wise?

RICHARD CODEY, FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR:  Well, the FBI has labeled the two miles between where we are right now, port Newark and Newark airport, the most dangerous two miles in all of America.

COSBY:  Why is that?

CODEY:  Well, because in addition to the port and the airport, you have the oil refineries, you have a rail system, and you have the Exxon refineries, the oil refineries, as well.  So I mean, if something happens here, between these two miles, you would effectively shut down all of the economy for the Northeast, without question.

COSBY:  Governor, what are we looking at here equipment-wise?

CODEY:  That's a lift that right now holds a container.  That may weigh—very well weigh 1,000 pounds.  And you and I don't know what is in that container right now, brought in from a ship somewhere around the world.  We don't know.

COSBY:  This particular port, the port of Newark, is the busiest on the Eastern seaboard in terms of the container ports, right?

CODEY:  Without question.  When it comes to containers, the number of containers, we are the largest.  So there's a lot of activity here every day and every night.

COSBY:  How many are coming in, and from how many different companies?

CODEY:  On a given day, hundreds or thousands of containers come in and out of this port from any place, all over the world.  And as I said before, you don't know what exactly are in these containers.

COSBY:  Governor, we're seeing a row of containers here, but how many of them are actually inspected?  And this is the actual port that the Dubai company is going to be taking over.

COSBY:  Yes, it is.  Only 5 percent of all these containers you see here and resting on those ships are inspected.

COSBY:  Five percent?

CODEY:  Five percent of the thousands that are brought in every day are actually inspected.  You just don't have enough manpower to inspect them all.  So they know that.  Terrorists know that, as well.  So the odds of getting something past us are obviously great.

COSBY:  You know, we look at security.  There's a fence line here...

CODEY:  A fence.  That's all.

COSBY:  ... a little bit of barbed wire.

CODEY:  Right.

COSBY:  What other kind of security is around this type of facility?

CODEY:  Well, I mean, there's security, no question about it, because we need to have security here.  But when you're dealing with such a large amount of employees and containers, it's hard.  It takes a lot of work and a lot of manpower.  So you have to have complete faith in the company that's running it.  And when it's run by another country, from that area of the world where America is not loved, that gives us all a lack of confidence in that company.

COSBY:  You're concerned.

CODEY:  Very concerned.  And the people that I represent here in the state of New Jersey are also extremely concerned about this and frightened by it.

COSBY:  Governor, how long are large containers like this typically parked here?

CODEY:  Well, a container like this could stay a week, a month, or a couple of months.  You don't know.

COSBY:  Maybe not even inspected that whole time?

CODEY:  Oh, for the most part, not inspected.  So it's laying here, and you don't know what's inside of it.

COSBY:  Governor, we're here inside an actual container.  It's quite large.

CODEY:  Yes, it is.  And a container like this comes in to port Newark every day, hundreds of them, thousands of them.  And contained within this container are small crates that could contain uranium used in weapons of mass destruction, maybe anthrax, maybe guns.  You have no idea what could be in this container, without question.  So it's really not tough, Rita, to sneak something into one of these containers by the security and on its way, and you don't know where it's going and to whom.

COSBY:  You know, and when you look around, lots of little corners.  I mean, are we talking about maybe like a small box stacked up here in the corner?

CODEY:  Yes.  Doesn't have to be large to be ultimately very frightening in terms of our security.

COSBY:  You've had your own threat, even when you were governor.

CODEY:  Oh, we always had threats.  I can remember one time when I was governor, I got a call from Homeland Security saying, Governor, there's a container out at sea on a ship.  We have a tip.  We think it's a possible threat of—that container contains anthrax.  So what do you want us to do about it?  Instantly, I had to make a decision and I said, Keep it out at sea.  Send our men out in a boat and inspect it out there.  But don't bring it into the port.  Fortunately for us and the state of New Jersey, it was not anthrax.  But those kind of threats and possibilities exist every day here in the state of New Jersey at port Newark, or the other five ports that this country is going to control.

COSBY:  So the threat is real.

CODEY:  The threat is real every day.  You live with it, no question about it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  You know, Steve, are you—here we are, several years as the 9/11, and as the governor was just saying, the former governor, only 5 percent of the containers are inspected?

EMERSON:  Well, listen, Rita, it's—there's no doubt that if you could inspect 100 percent of the containers, we would have an incredibly more secure country.  But the problem is cost-benefit.  The cost of doing it would be so prohibitive, so basically, it's an attempt to basically do profiling of cargo and basically check out where they are overseas, check out the cargo in other countries.

In fact, the United Arab Emirates is one of the few countries that allows advanced screening and remote site screening of the cargo before it comes to the United States.  And then, of course, you have the last resort, which is to inspect it here in the United States on a random basis.  But again, you're right, only 5 percent gets inspected.  That leaves 95 percent unscrutinized.

COSBY:  Real quick, I want to play the comment—this is from the sheriff in that community.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF ARMANDO FONTOURA, ESSEX COUNTY, NEW JERSEY:  You can't always cover all the bases.  This is a very vulnerable spot.  This particular area, this particular port is very vulnerable.  So we need to be vigilant and stay on top of it and have our government not shock us, and you know, let us start the—to throw monkeywrenches into our plans.  We didn't plan for this!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And Steve, what is the biggest concern?  I mean, we heard about weapons of mass destruction, bombs.  What is the biggest fear that we're worried about coming through?

EMERSON:  In terms of cargo, I think that it is weapons of mass destruction, chemical or biological agents, more likely chemical agents, that would be transported through one of the cargo containers.  I don't think it would be a conventional bomb, although, as you know, because the ports are so close to concentrations of high chemicals and the oil industry, you know, a major bomb inside a container could do a lot of damage.

So the real trick here is to get advanced notification of what's inside the cargo containers before they arrive in the United States.

COSBY:  All right, Steve.  Thank you very much.  And everybody, we'll stay on this story.  We understand that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is going to be heading to the region very soon.

And coming up: We have been reporting on big developments in the Natalee Holloway investigation all week.  There's a lot more tonight.  Take a look.

Still ahead: Natalee Holloway caught on tape in the same room as Joran Van Der Sloot.  Does this tape hold clues to the night she vanished?  Is this the last video ever taken of her?  Plus, for the first time, Joran responds in his own words.

And a battle of the billionaires.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, “THE APPRENTICE”:  You're fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Martha Stewart and Donald Trump go at it in a public cat fight.  Which big TV personality will come out top dog?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Best wishes (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  I'll ask “Apprentice” runner-up Kwame Jackson.

And unhappily ever after.  One man's idea of marriage allegedly put his wife in a living hell.  Wait until you see the sick demands cops say he put in a marriage contract.

And caught by Cosby, the story behind this rock-and-roll dashboard video.  It's coming up LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Tonight, another ground-breaking development in the Natalee hallway investigation.  For the first time, we are seeing video of Natalee Holloway the night that she vanished.  This may be the last video ever captured of Natalee.  In this surveillance tape from the Excelsior Casino, not only do you see Natalee sitting at the blackjack table with friends, but the prime suspect in her disappearance—you see him there—Joran Van Der Sloot, is just a few feet away at the same table.  Obtained by ABC News, this is being made public amid word of a possible new search for Natalee.  They were at the casino before they all went to Carlos and Charlie's that night, where Natalee was last seen.

On the phone with us right now tonight from Aruba is Julia Renfro from the “Aruba Today” newspaper.  Julia, how long have you known about this tape and its existence?

JULIA RENFRO, “ARUBA TODAY” NEWSPAPER:  Well, actually, Beth Twitty told me already on the 30th of May that she had seen the video, and that's how she identified Joran Van Der Sloot in the first place.

COSBY:  And we're looking at—this is, in fact, Natalee entering the casino.  You saw the video before, right?  Under what circumstances did you see it?  And did you see more than what we're able to see now, Julia?

RENFRO:  I've probably seen quite a bit of the tape, and the one thing that you do notice in the parts that I have seen is that there is little or no contact between Joran and Natalee.

COSBY:  Yes, it's interesting.  In fact, let me play a little—this is a comment that Joran Van Der Sloot made in the interview that he did with ABC.  He talks about how he's portrayed with the media.  And then we'll put it in reference to the tape.  Here's what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE:  I think I've been portrayed unfairly.  I've been portrayed as a murderer and a rapist and everything that I'm not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Do you think, Julia, when you see the tape, does it maybe help him in any way?

RENFRO:  Well, it certainly doesn't hurt him because he went into the casino prior to the girls.  He was playing, and the girls came and sat next to him.  And there is very little contact between the Mountain Brook kids and Joran throughout the whole tape.  There's an occasional win, where everybody gets excited, and you know, there's a few little conversations between Joran and some of the other Mountain Brook students, but really nothing between Joran and Natalee.

COSBY:  And in fact, Joran further says in the interview, he says, “I sat down there, and then within five minutes, there was a group of girls from Mountain Brook school”—Natalee's school—“that came up to me and sat down next to me.  And they wanted to play, as well.  They had already been drinking that day and had drinks with them,” saying that he had drinks with them.

Do you get the impression from everything you've heard, Julia, that he didn't know them before the Excelsior?  It doesn't look like he knows her, almost.

RENFRO:  Oh, he absolutely didn't know any of them.  He had not met any of them, at that point.  That was the first interaction he had had with any of the girls.

COSBY:  And how long before Carlos and Charlie's—before they went to Carlos and Charlie's?.

RENFRO:  At the point of the video where you have, it's probably about two hours before they actually went to Carlos and Charlie's.  And Joran didn't even show up to Carlos and Charlie's until 12:30 that evening.  And at about 10 until 1:00, they were already moving people out.  And by 1:00 o'clock, Carlos and Charlie's was empty.  So there's still very little contact between Joran and these young ladies.

COSBY:  And I want to show also and ask you a question about the search real quickly because this is, again, what the chief of police, Chief Dompig, said to us.  He said, “Based on this new information, we strongly feel that a body is buried somewhere in those areas,” talking about in the beach areas.  “These new searches are because of a tip that we received last month that is very credible.”

Real quick, why—are you getting any sense that there's any urgency in this search, as we're looking to, hopefully, to resolve this?

RENFRO:  Well, I have not spoke to Mr. Dompig, but I did speak to Arlene, who did speak to Dompig, who didn't exactly say that, according to Arlene.  And it sounds like that was a journalist that, you know, just went a little bit overboard in her statements.

COSBY:  All right.  Well, thank you very much, Julia.  We appreciate it.

So what's the reaction on the island of Aruba to this tape?  And also, more importantly, when might we see a new search for Natalee?  And were these statements by the chief taken out of context or not?

LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is Steve Cohen.  He's a special adviser to the Aruban government.  Steve, first of all, let's get to the tape.  What's your reaction when you look at the video?

STEVE COHEN, SPECIAL ADVISER TO ARUBAN GOVERNMENT:  Well, first, our reaction is that this tape was a piece of evidence, like all the tapes are.

COSBY:  So how did it get out, Steve?  That's the other question?

COHEN:  Well, I think...

COSBY:  If it's supposed to be such a part of the investigation.

COHEN:  Well, I think that there are leaks in all investigations.  There are so many agendas that are competing here, the reconstruction agenda of the Van Der Sloots, the Beth Holloway Twitty agenda in terms of continuing to put pressure on the family and Aruba, the agenda of Dave Holloway and his forthcoming book, the agenda of Larry Garrison, their agent.  You put all these different agendas together and you sort of get a jumble.  And of course, in Aruba, what we're concerned about is something very simple and straightforward, is what happened that night?  How did Natalee disappear?  Was anyone responsible?  And did any of them commit a crime?

And this tape, therefore, really doesn't help much in terms of the pursuit of this, which is why I think, in terms of the evidence of the case, we knew that they met beforehand.  We knew that the nature of their relationship there was not very close, as Julia told you just before.  And also, we also know about this tape that there are many other tapes that show activity before the time when Natalee disappears.

COSBY:  You know, we also—we've seen Joran talking a little bit.  Obviously, he did the interview with Dutch TV and now the one with ABC that's coming up.  Let me show a quote because he was asked, you know, Why did you lie?  Why did you change your stories?  It's a fact that he's changed his story several times.  And he said, quote, “I was scared.  I didn't want anyone to know.  I didn't know anyone to know I left her on the beach.”

I mean, Steve, do these inconsistent statements still trouble you a lot?

COHEN:  I think that the investigation is definitely troubled by the inconsistency of the statements.  And please understand—we want your audience to understand that the primary scenario that's still being investigated is what involvement, if any, Joran and the Kalpoes had in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.  That is our focus.

In terms of the digging, I want to get to that.  There's no question that Chief Dompig feels that there is a need to continue digging or excavation by the dunes.  That will commence shortly.  I won't give you an exact time because I really don't know the exact time, but we will...

COSBY:  But why wait?  Real quick.

COHEN:  Well, I think—I don't think it's a matter of waiting, except for he wants to make sure he has everything together that he needs to do a meticulous search.

COSBY:  Let me also—because earlier tonight, on Dan Abram's show, one of the chaperones, the American chaperones, was talking.  Let's just listen to a little bit of what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB PLUMMER, CHAPERONED HOLLOWAY TRIP:  These kids were 18 years old, legal to be drafted in our country's service, legal to do what they wanted to do.  So we were there in case they needed us just for an emergency, medical emergency or whatnot.  We were not there to baby-sit these kids.  And that was made well known to us before we ever went.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  I mean, that's what they say, but Steve, you know, we know that some of the kids have been questioned.  Is there a chance the chaperones are going to be questioned, too, just in case they saw something?

COHEN:  No, I don't think so.  I think the information we need in terms of witnesses from the Alabama teens has been concluded.  And you know, all of us think that the people that are responsible for this disappearance of Natalee are not the people in Alabama but are more likely to be one of the three suspects.  And until that's proven one way or the other, this case will not conclude.

COSBY:  All right, Steve.  Thank you very much.

And now that we're seeing the surveillance tape of Natalee and Joran at the casino for the first time, what role could this video that you're looking at play?  LIVE AND DIRECT right now tonight is private investigator Vito Colucci.  Vito, you've seen the tape.  What do you glean from it?

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Absolutely nothing, Rita.  It'll be shown, if there's ever a trial, as some background information, but it really doesn't give anything.  All the main events happened from Carlos and Charlie's on.  So it's not really—I mean, it's good.  It's news.  It's on TV for the first time.  But other than that, Rita, it doesn't really mean anything.

COSBY:  What do you make of the timing that it came out now, that it was, quote, “leaked” now?

COLUCCI:  Well, you know, if they think this is going to help Van Der Sloot, it really is not going to help him.  And I'm so amazed at his statements that he made to “Primetime” that he is a normal teenager.  He says—There's absolutely no reason to believe me, he says.  He says, I wouldn't believe myself.  And...

COSBY:  What does that say to you as an investigator, Vito?

COLUCCI:  His own words are going to get him in the long run, I hope.  If this was our country, it would get him in the long run.  I don't know about over there.  He's asked why is he coming forward now?  He says, Because it's time to tell the truth now.

But let me say one thing about this search, Rita, if I can, in the sand dunes, OK?

COSBY:  Yes, why is it taking so long, Vito?  You know, we just heard from Steve Cohen, and he said they're trying to get the right equipment.  We know they've turned down some of the best equipment in the U.S.

COLUCCI:  Let's let the viewers understand this.  The deputy chief of police gets what he calls a credible tip that her body is buried in the sand dunes, about 500 yards, five football fields this ensues here.  He leaves it on his desk.  You had Equusearch on last night, Rita, that said that they can find a body in that area in three to five days, but the Aruban government has not allowed them to do that.  So you figure out where we're going with this because I certainly can't.  After 30 years of investigative work, this is totally ridiculous.  They have said they can find the body.  If there's a body there, they said give them three to five days, Rita.

COSBY:  And exactly.  If you have the information, go for it.  Why would you wait?  Vito, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

And still ahead, everybody, Donald Trump and Martha Stewart in a big battle.  She takes a swipe at the Donald, and he fires back with brutal force.  Who has lost the most?  I'll ask former “Apprentice” contestant Kwame Jackson.  And later: He was one of the “American Idol” hosts in the first season.  Now Brian Dunkelman (ph) dishes the dirt.  Was he forced out?  He'll tell me that plus all the scoop behind the scenes.  That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  Michael was terrible, but Michael is exempt.  I have to live by the rules.  Danny, you're fired.

Greg (ph), you're fired.

Brian (ph), you're fired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Well, that's the battle cry in a new big-time cat fight between two big business billionaires.  Donald Trump and Martha Stewart are duking it out all because of the well-known “Apprentice” TV franchise.  Now, the feud began in “Newsweek” when Martha Stewart took aim at the Donald.  She says she was supposed to fire Trump on air and that she thought her show was then going to be the only “Apprentice.”  But the Donald didn't take too kindly of her version of the events.  He blasted back with a nasty letter of his own late Tuesday.  Now the duo has been battling it out publicly with the boxing gloves on.  It's all over TV and radio.  Which titan is more likely to win, the real estate mogul or the domestic diva?

Joining me now are two original contestants, well known ones, on “The Apprentice,” Sam Sullivay (ph) and also Kwame Jackson.  You know, Kwame, first of all, I got to play this quote.  This is Donald Trump.  He fired back big-time.  He was on—he was, of course, on “The Big Idea With Donnie Deutch (ph).”  My pal on CNBC, got him on last night, and this is what Donald had to say.  I'm going to get you to react.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP:  After I saw the show, I realized it was going to be a total disaster.  I mean, she just didn't have what it takes for that particular show, unfortunately, and I could see immediately it was going to be a disaster, and that's unfortunate.

I mean, she actually blames me for her show's failure, and it wasn't me.  It wasn't my fault and it wasn't Mark Burnett's fault.  It was Martha's fault.  She was terrible on the show.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Ouch—Kwame? 

JACKSON:  Yes, he went for the jugular, but that's Donald.  I think, you know, I will say, first of all, you know, I'm not in the billionaire club, so it's hard for me to...

COSBY:  Oh, you're not?  You look pretty good now, Kwame. 

JACKSON:  It's hard for me to get in between these two, you know, titans.  But at the same time, I say don't throw stones at giants.  And they're both giants.

But I think, you know, Martha and Donald are great, colorful personalities and figures.  They're both great people who should be on television hosting their own program. 

Unfortunately, you know, the numbers don't necessarily justify that right now.  And I think it's important to separate the personalities Martha and Donald from the show.  The show is suffering from being up against “CSI,” from being up against, you know, “America's Next Top Model.”  They're suffering from some casting issues. 

It's also suffering from this fact that I think a lot of people feel like it's overly commercialized right now, that, you know, it's one thing for our group to sell lemonade in the streets and for people to relate to some of those things.  It's another thing to see a 45-minute Yahoo! commercial or a major corporate sponsor. 

COSBY:  Well, Martha Stewart's probably suffering after the letter that Donald Trump sent her.  And, Sam, let me read you this quote.  This is part of the letter that he actually wrote to her.  It says—and this is really tough—“Between your daughter, with her one-word statements, your letter-writing, and, most important, your totally unconvincing demeanor, it never had a chance.”

That's pretty tough, Sam. 

SAM SOLOVEY, “THE APPRENTICE” CONTESTANT:  Well, Rita, Donald does not like to be picked on by anyone. 

COSBY:  Oh, really?  We never would have guessed that. 

(LAUGHTER)

JACKSON:  Surprise. 

SOLOVEY:  I think he was honestly annoyed that she was implying that his version of “The Apprentice” was going to be canceled.  It made him appear weak.  And Donald Trump does not like to look weak, so he fought back. 

And the funny thing to me, Rita, is that they're supposed to be friends.  So I can't imagine what Donald Trump does to his enemies, because he's really picking on her. 

COSBY:  Yes, let me show you another quote, Kwame, that he said to one of his, quote, “friends,” OK?

JACKSON:  OK.

COSBY:  This is in the letter, again, to Martha Stewart.  “Essentially, you made this firing up, just as you made your sell order of ImClone.  The only difference is that was more obvious.”

What do you make of this, Kwame? 

JACKSON:  Oh, jeez, I mean, like I said, he goes...

COSBY:  Was he this tough on you guys? 

JACKSON:  You know, hopefully, he was a little nicer to us.  But I mean, he definitely went for the jugular again. 

I think that, on that quote, you know, you got to think to yourself that, you know, why would they say that, you know, Donald Trump's going to be fired on his own show?  It just doesn't really make any sense... 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Especially when the show is still getting good numbers.  I mean, a lot of people are still talking about it. 

JACKSON:  Exactly.  You know, I wasn't there with Sam Waksal and Martha Stewart.  I can't speak for that.  But I can say that it doesn't really make a lot of sense to say that Donald's going to be thrown off his own show. 

COSBY:  You know, Sam, let me show what Martha Stewart said in response.  She's now been a little tepid in her answers.  This is what she said on her own show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA STEWART, TV HOST:  Before we get to my first guest, I want to address what's happening with Donald Trump.  I'm disappointed.  I'm hurt.  And I'm really very upset at my long-time friend.  And that's really all I want to say.  Enough about it. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Sam, you're pretty good with this kind of stuff.  Is that the right answer? 

SOLOVEY:  Well, I think that she's trying to take the high road.  I think she's honestly shocked at the way he's responded. 

COSBY:  But is she outgunned and outnumbered?  I mean, look what he's doing on the other side. 

SOLOVEY:  Well, he's relentless.  And if you've read any of his books, if he gets hit, he's going to hit back harder. 

JACKSON:  That's true. 

SOLOVEY:  And that's what he's doing.  And he doesn't care—you know, obviously he doesn't care about, you know, his friends, enemies.  He's going to go after whoever picks on him. 

And let's not forget, Rita.  I mean, there is a little bit of a publicity element to this, as well.  The show starts...

COSBY:  Do you think it's about publicity, Sam? 

SOLOVEY:  I think it started for Donald as, “Hey, don't pick on me here.  You know, don't blame me for your failures.”  But then he said, “Wait a second; this could be a good story.  The show starts next week.  Let's see.  Let's rub the hands together and see what we can concoct.” 

I mean, I wouldn't underestimate his ability to create a little publicity here. 

COSBY:  Is this a little bit of concoction? 

JACKSON:  You know, he's on to something. 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  What do you think?

JACKSON:  You know, Donald is a master self-promoter.  You know, “The Apprentice” is a great franchise that he helped to create.  And he's going to be, you know, tenacious about protecting it and also making sure that it's viewed the right way in the public eye. 

COSBY:  I'll give you both two seconds, and I know it's going to only take two seconds to answer this.  Who's going to win this battle, Kwame? 

JACKSON:  You know, they always say dance with the woman that took you to the prom.  I think my dance card is full with Donald right now. 

COSBY:  All right.

And, Sam, what do you think?

SOLOVEY:  I have never seen Donald Trump lose an argument, so I think this is his. 

COSBY:  You know what?  I'll agree with you guys, all right?  Thank you both very much.  Great to have you both here.  Thanks so much, Kwame and Sam. 

And now to more drama in the world of reality TV.  Brian Dunkleman was one of the original hosts of “American Idol,” well before Ryan Seacrest and Simon Cowell became household names.  He says he left the show to pursue an acting career.

But is Ryan Seacrest's thirst for fame and Simon Cowell's cruelty really the reasons that he left?  Brian joins me now LIVE & DIRECT to answer that. 

Why did you leave, Brian? 

BRIAN DUNKLEMAN, FORMER “AMERICAN IDOL” CO-HOST:  Hi, Rita.  How are you?  Thanks for having me on. 

COSBY:  Hey, I'm good.  Why did you leave? 

DUNKLEMAN:  You know, there was a few reasons, but—I know it's a stock answer, but I really did leave to pursue an acting career. 

COSBY:  You did.  And any regrets?  Because now you look, obviously, look where the show has gone.  Did you have any idea it was going to skyrocket? 

DUNKLEMAN:  I've got to tell you.  If I knew that it was going to last 10 seasons, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.  I mean, I was just one of those guys that... 

COSBY:  You'd be there, stuck like glue, huh? 

DUNKLEMAN:  Absolutely.  I was one of these people that thought reality television was just going to run its course and go away.  Obviously, I miscalculated. 

COSBY:  Yes, what do you think it is about the show that it's still so popular and, obviously, I mean, huge numbers? 

DUNKLEMAN:  I know.  It's unbelievable.  They've really suffered without me. 

COSBY:  Yes, they have tremendously.  And, in fact, Simon Cowell, I will tell you, it doesn't seem like he's gotten too much nicer since you have left.  I want to show—this is typical Simon Cowell, which you know all too well.

Simon—we're cueing it up actually.  But his typical comments to, you know, of course, the contestants.  He was pretty rough, didn't you think, Brian?  Was that hard for you? 

DUNKLEMAN:  Absolutely.  You know, off camera, Simon is one of the most charming, funny, intelligent people that you will ever met.  Just ask him. 

COSBY:  Yes, in fact, let's play a little.  We do have that now here. 

DUNKLEMAN:  OK. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON COWELL, JUDGE, “AMERICAN IDOL”:  Do we have a bigger stage this year? 

RANDY JACKSON, JUDGE, “AMERICAN IDOL”:  Oh, come on. 

Are you a girl? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  No, I'm a guy. 

JACKSON:  You are? 

COWELL:  I'm not being rude, but you look like the Incredible Hulk's wife.  That's what it is. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  Ouch!  You know, is he for real or is it show, Brian?  What's the real Simon Cowell like?

DUNKLEMAN:  He's America's sweetheart, isn't he?  I mean, he plays it up for the drama of the show, of course.  But, you know, that's what people love about it.  I mean, that's another reason that I really had a very difficult time with how cruel the show was. 

I mean, people have to remember it was the first season, so these kids really didn't know what the show was.  And they were just so excited to be a part of it, and they just didn't know what they were getting set up for.  So it was very difficult for me to handle that. 

COSBY:  You know what?  There's been a lot of other fireworks that have happened recently, particularly the alleged affair with Paula Abdul and Corey Clark.  I had Corey Clark on my show just a little bit ago.  Let me play a little bit of what he had to say. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COREY CLARK, FORMER “IDOL” CONTESTANT:  A lot of people just really want to know the truth, because they see that FOX and Paula are trying to cover up a lot of stuff. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  What about in terms of flings on the show?  Did you ever see fireworks?  I know you weren't there, obviously, during the Paula Abdul-Corey Clark phase. 

DUNKLEMAN:  Right.

COSBY:  But did you ever see anything sort of going on there, hanky-panky with others? 

DUNKLEMAN:  No hanky-panky, but Paula and Simon, that drama is real.  I mean, Simon knows what he's doing.  He's giving her the business ever chance he gets, so that's definitely real. 

COSBY:  That's real, in terms of what?

DUNKLEMAN:  As far as the Corey Clark...

COSBY:  In terms of what, affection, or in terms of...

DUNKLEMAN:  In terms of provoking her.  He knows it's good TV. 

COSBY:  And what about anything between contestants and judges, as Corey Clark was alluding to?  Were there things that you saw that crossed the line? 

DUNKLEMAN:  No.  I mean, I adore Paula Abdul.  I mean, she was nothing but sweet and kind with me.  And I think that what she had to go through so publicly with that situation is awful, and I really felt for her.  But I mean, I have no firsthand knowledge of anything that happened, so I couldn't comment on it. 

COSBY:  What about Kelly Clarkson?  She has really become the superstar and probably the one name that everybody knows from “American Idol,” in terms of the contestants.  Are you surprised about her fame? 

DUNKLEMAN:  No, not at all.  I mean, she's just, in my opinion, the biggest talent that's ever come out of that show.  I mean, to beat out Paul McCartney for a Grammy is just unbelievable.  I mean, she's literally the personification of the American dream.  And I'm really, really happy for her and proud of her.

COSBY:  Why are you coming out now?  Why do you think it was important to come out now and sort of talk about what you experienced? 

DUNKLEMAN:  Well, I tried to keep low for a while.  And actually, they just announced that they're re-airing the first season of “American Idol.”  So I figured my strategy of laying low was over. 

And I was actually approached to host and be a celebrity blogger on this new Web site, IdolGoHome.com.  So that's what I'm doing right now.  And I think it's a great opportunity to really set the record straight of what really happened.  I mean, it really was my decision to leave.  Like I said, it might not have been a good decision, but it's what happened. 

COSBY:  What was the best thing that you saw on the show? 

DUNKLEMAN:  What was the best thing that I saw on the show?

COSBY:  Yes, some of the best things, the things, the best memories that you have? 

DUNKLEMAN:  I would say the live performances, especially Kelly Clarkson's.  I mean, to see the career that it's launched, it's just amazing.  My favorite part of the show was the live performances.  I mean, the energy in that room is just unbelievable. 

COSBY:  And do you still stay in touch with any of the folks from the show? 

DUNKLEMAN:  No, I don't.  You know, I called Randy Jackson a couple years ago to wish him a happy Martin Luther King Day, and I never heard back from him, so... 

COSBY:  Well, thank you very much for being with us, Brian.  We appreciate it.  And we'll look at IdolGohome.com.  Thanks so much for being with us.

DUNKLEMAN:  Everybody's talking about it, Rita.  Thanks a lot.

COSBY:  You got it.  Thank you.

And still ahead, everybody, love and marriage it ain't.  A husband in trouble with the law for allegedly kidnapping his wife.  And that's not all.  Wait until you hear the demands the cops say he forced his wife to adhere to in a despicable contract. 

And later, defending the indefensible.  Teenagers caught on tape beating homeless people.  The disturbing video is coming up. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  An Iowa man is accused of abusing his wife, and allegedly he put it all in writing.  Prosecutors say 33-year-old Travis Frey wrote an outrageous contract detailing what his wife was supposed to do for him and when, calling it a “Contract of Wifely Expectations.”

But among the things she was expected to do, perform sexual acts upon request and be completely submissive.  Now she's breaking everything in the contract and filing for divorce.  Her husband's now looking at life behind bars, charged with first-degree kidnapping and assault. 

Joining us now LIVE & DIRECT is Bill McGinn.  He's a defense attorney for the husband, Travis Frey.  And we also have with us the prosecutor, Matt Wilbur. 

Let me start with you, Bill.  Did he write this contract, and why? 

BILL MCGINN, TRAVIS FREY'S ATTORNEY:  No, he did not, Rita. 

COSBY:  So where did it come from?  And she's saying that he wrote it.  Where did it come from?

MCGINN:  Well, my understanding is that the document, when you look at a contract in the legal sense of the word, a contract is an agreement between parties as evidenced by a particular document. 

The document in this case is a—or the purported contract, as I call it, has neither the signature of my client nor his wife.  So, therefore, it is our position, from the defense standpoint, that the document is basically just that, a piece of paper.  And it remains to be seen whether to what degree that document will be entered into evidence or allowed into evidence at the time of trial in this matter. 

COSBY:  Let me bring in the prosecutor.  Because, Matt, obviously some of the things in this contract, whether you call it a contract or not, this is what it says. 

It says, “This will be time for you solely to devote to me, whereas you will be in my service to do anything and everything that I want, which may or may not be sexual in manner.  Be subservient, submissive, and totally obedient.  Do what you're asked when you're asked.  Perform any and all sexual acts.” 

That's part of what he calls, quote, “my time.”  Matt, what do you make of that? 

MATT WILBUR, PROSECUTOR:  Well, you know, I don't know that I would even necessarily consider this to be a contract case in any event.  I think it's important to understand that what we have here is a kidnapping case.

COSBY:  Does it go into his insight?  Does it go into the mental insight of this guy? 

WILBUR:  Well, I mean, it certainly could.  It certainly shows—it's certainly corroborating evidence of what our victim is saying.  But, you know, it's important to remember what we've got here is a marital rape case, a domestic violence case. 

And, you know, we're not insinuating at all that this is a contract case.  This is a document that the victim says was produced and handed to her by her husband, and she refused to sign it.  And her allegations are that he enforced it upon her anyway. 

COSBY:  You know, Bill, let me play—at least show another clip of what is in this, quote, “document” that he apparently presented her with, whether they signed it or not.  And this may obviously hurt your client, just if it gets out there. 

It says, “Misbehavior is when you complain about what is being requested or expected of you.  It is also misbehavior when you perform half-assed.  You are to do everything that is requested or expected of you.  If you don't, you'll be tied to the bed and I will do whatever I wish to you.  You will need to apologize and explain how you are ready to be my slave again.” 

Either it sounds like a nasty person or just a horrible joke. 

MCGINN:  One of the two.  And it could be interpreted either way, which is part of the thing that we have to realize.  The county attorney, the state has the burden of proof in this case. 

And if there is some doubt in the jurors' mind as to what was going on, if that can be shown—because, once again, it's difficult for us to say what was in a person's mind at a particular time, even if it can be shown that my client was the author of that document or if my client even agreed with what was in that document. 

COSBY:  All right.  Both of you, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

And, everybody, there's a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight.  Let's check in, if we could, with Joe Scarborough now with a preview of what's ahead in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.” 

Joe, what do you got? 

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  You know, Rita, actually, I tried to use some of those phrases in that contract for my wedding vows, but my wife...

COSBY:  And with your co-workers, and it just didn't work.  Nobody is listening, right, Joe?  Is that the problem? 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, I think it's just this radicalism that's swept the country over the past 30 or 40 years.  What's with it? 

Actually, Rita, serious business tonight.  We're going to be talking about a full-scale revolt that's going on, on Capitol Hill, right now.  The Republicans who've really walked lock-step with the president since he was elected in 2000 are now in full-scale revolt. 

One congresswoman wrote a letter to the president talking about this plan to turn over our most important ports to the United Arab Emirates.  And she said, “Mr. President, on this matter, not just no, hell no.”  And she's speaking for a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill.  They're ready for a showdown, if the president doesn't back down. 

We're going to be talking about that and a lot more in “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”  And I suspect I'm going to be talking to my wife a lot when I get home tonight. 

COSBY:  I think you're going to have a lot of questions.  All right, Joe, thank you.

SCARBOROUGH:  A lot of explaining, Rita.  Thanks. 

COSBY:  A lot.  Thanks, Joe.

And still ahead, everybody, teenagers caught on tape brutally beating homeless people with deadly consequences.  How do you defend such a horrible act?  I'll ask an attorney for one of the suspects.  He's coming up. 

And also caught on tape, could anyone survive this crash?  Find out, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, you may remember the series of brutal beatings of homeless men in south Florida last month, one of which was caught on this disturbing videotape, which you're looking at now.

Well, the three teenagers accused in these horrific beatings appeared in court today.  Brian Hooks, William Ammons, and 17-year-old Thomas Daugherty pled not guilty for the beatings that sent two people to the hospital and one man to his grave.  Hooks and Ammons, who are both 18, could face the death penalty if they're convicted. 

Joining me now is defense attorney Michael Gottlieb.  He represents 17-year-old Thomas Daugherty who could get life in prison. 

Michael, does he realize how serious these charges are? 

MICHAEL GOTTLIEB, DAUGHERTY'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Clearly, he understands how serious the charges are, Rita. 

COSBY:  Does he have any remorse for what he did? 

GOTTLIEB:  He definitely—he's remorseful.  He's upset.  I have stated earlier he's got the weight of the world on his shoulders, and I think you can tell from looking at his demeanor in court that he truthfully feels sorry for any role that he played in this. 

COSBY:  What was his role?  Because, you know, as we look at that, the tape, we know he's one of the guys on the tape.  What was his role?  Why did he do this? 

GOTTLIEB:  I think it's way too early to make a comment on that, as far as where we're at in the case.  There may be a point in time, you know, when I choose to discuss that.  And as far as their motivation, again, that's something, at this point in time, it's a little too early to discuss. 

COSBY:  Were there drugs involved?  Is he getting psychoanalyzed?

GOTTLIEB:  I do have a psychologist working on the case.  And, yes, I do believe that there were drugs involved. 

COSBY:  What kind of drugs was he on that night? 

GOTTLIEB:  Again, I think that's something that's early—you know, it's a little early to speculate on that.  But I think that, in the end, the evidence will show that there was influence of alcohol and perhaps Xanax. 

COSBY:  Has he had any history of violence in the past?  Is there anything, any track record here with your client?

GOTTLIEB:  Absolutely not.  No criminal history, no history of violence whatsoever. 

COSBY:  Does he remember what happened?  Because, I mean, when you look at these pictures are just disgusting and horrible.  And people say, how could a human being do this to someone, and someone they certainly don't even know?

GOTTLIEB:  Yes, he definitely remembers that night. 

COSBY:  And does he remember—what does he remember?  I mean, does he remember picking up the baseball bat? 

GOTTLIEB:  Again, that's not something that at this point in time that I'm at liberty to discuss. 

COSBY:  Where were they earlier in the night?  Can you walk us through what was happening prior to these pictures being taken?

GOTTLIEB:  Unfortunately, at this point, I cannot. 

COSBY:  We know that there were witnesses, you know, who came forward.  Your client, I guess, ultimately turned himself in?

GOTTLIEB:  Right. 

COSBY:  Why did he do that? 

GOTTLIEB:  Well, you know, he heard through contacts, locally, obviously, that the police were looking for him.  And that was the right thing to do.  You know, when the police are looking for you, whether you're guilty or not, he went in.  And he didn't make any statements, but he turned himself in. 

COSBY:  Does he understand that, when you see this video, people are outraged? 

GOTTLIEB:  Yes, he understands that. 

COSBY:  All right.  Thank you very much.  Michael Gottlieb, we appreciate you being here. 

And, everybody, stick with us.  We're going to be back with one wild ride.  You're taking a look at it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And “Caught by Cosby” tonight, amazing video of a truck rollover that you have to see to believe.  It is incredible.  You have to take a look at this.

After hitting a patch of ice, a pickup truck went flying off a road and right off an embankment in Longview, Texas, into an area there in Longview, Texas.  The crash was captured on tape by a police cruiser camera that happened to be parked next to the road. 

Amazingly, the woman driving the truck suffered minor injuries.  This is pretty incredible video.  And, again, the woman driving it only suffered minor injuries. 

And coming up tomorrow, hot on the trail of one of most America's wanted fugitives, Whitey Bulger.  Find out all the secrets of the infamous gang mobster and where he might be hiding undercover right now.  That is tomorrow night, right now on LIVE & DIRECT.

And we're also going to have Mark Lunsford.  Remember, his little daughter, Jessica, of course, was killed, and murdered, and raped.  He will be on with us, again, on a very important anniversary.

And now that does it for me on LIVE & DIRECT.  Let's go to Joe and “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with starts right now—Joe?

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Thanks so much, Rita.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

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