Guests: Carol D‘Auria, Fernando Mateo, Joe Cardinale, Vito Colucci, Caryn Stark, Pam Bondi, Richard Culp, Lee Baig, Jack Arnold, Russell Buindo, Anna McCloy, Julian Bailes, Dhillon Khosla
RITA COSBY, HOST: Hello, everybody. Tonight, New York police are hunting for one creepy cabdriver who is also now a possible murder suspect in the death of a graduate student who would have turned 25 years old today. Could a man have something to do with the killing of Imette St. Guillen? New York police are comparing details of a sexual assault of a woman allegedly by this man last month, comparing it with the rape and murder of Imette over the weekend. The crime scenes are in the same area in Brooklyn.
And joining me now is reporter Carol D‘Auria with 1010 WINS Radio, who has been working with this story from the very, very beginning.
Carol, first of all, what do we know about this crime, what, on February 12th?
CAROL D‘AURIA, REPORTER, 1010 WINS RADIO: The cabby was on February 12th, and it was about a mile from where the body of Imette was found. And it was by—like an illegal cabby. And the woman had hailed him, and he ended up sexually attacking her.
You know, I have been talking to police officials all day long, and they are telling me that we really shouldn‘t be making a big leap like this, that they are not sure. They have not made any decision at all, that in fact a cabby is the prime suspect in the murder of Imette. There are not many...
COSBY: What are they looking at in terms of a theory?
D‘AURIA: ... similarities between the two cases.
COSBY: That‘s the thing, though, it seems like they are working a lot of different theories, right?
D‘AURIA: In fact, at this point they just don‘t really have a suspect. They have no suspect and they have no witnesses to her very vicious murder.
COSBY: You know, talk about one of the things that is striking is the locales, from this one on February 12th—and again, it‘s just a theory—but from February 12th to this current one, pretty close together, right?
D‘AURIA: Just about a mile apart. Both in—one is Ozone Park, which is Queens, and then this murder, of course, she was found in Brooklyn, the next borough. and it does make people want to say that, oh, my goodness, perhaps these could be linked, but the police have been insisting all day long that there is no evidence that links these two cases, the sexual assault on February 12th and the murder that occurred early Saturday morning. And so they are going to keep looking.
And as one investigator explained to me today, it is just going to be a methodical way of just going through the evidence that they have, interviewing people, and they‘re just going to keep at it.
COSBY: You know, we know that Imette was wrapped—her face was wrapped in a sort of a tape that you could at least see through. What do we know about the tape? Were there any markations, any fingerprints?
D‘AURIA: No. A source told me today that they found no fingerprints at all on the tape. However, that‘s not a dead end, just because they didn‘t find the fingerprints, and it doesn‘t necessarily mean that the killer was very careful. It could just simply mean that he used some sort of a tape dispenser. If you have ever seen the packing tape that thick, there is frequently a red dispenser, and they just pull it and you don‘t have to touch the tape.
So they really just need to keep working at it. It‘s unfortunate they didn‘t find fingerprints, but they have hairs and fibers that they‘re looking for, still waiting for DNA evidence to come back. And so they are just going to keep working on it in a very careful way.
COSBY: And very quickly, what is the reward up to now?
D‘AURIA: There is a reward. It‘s up to $42,000. And the lion‘s share of it, about $30,000, comes from John Jay College itself. That‘s where she was due to graduate this semester. And she was going to graduate with honors. And so you have friends and people who have donated to that $30,000. Another $2,000 comes from the police department‘s crimestoppers unit, and then $10,000 comes from the mayor‘s office. And so it‘s a sizable reward, and they‘re really hoping that that helps them find the killer.
COSBY: You bet. Carol, please keep us posted. Thank you.
And meantime, as cops consider a lot of different theories, among others, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg spoke out today about cab safety.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG ®, NEW YORK CITY: You should make sure before you get in a cab you know what you are doing. And that‘s one of the arguments to use a yellow cab with a number that you can remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And we also went out today with a legitimate black car service, just before the show. I spoke with the president of the New York State Federation of Taxi Drivers, the largest taxi and livery driver organization in the country. I asked them about the possibility that a cabby may have been linked to Imette‘s brutal murder.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FERNANDO MATEO, PRESIDENT, NY FEDERATION OF TAXI DRIVERS: There is 95,000 cab drivers in New York. And we estimate as a federation that anywhere between 3 and 5 percent of those drivers are unlicensed. Their license either has been revoked or they‘re just pirating and acting as cabbies when they‘re really not.
COSBY: How are you warning your drivers? Are you telling them to be on the lookout?
MATEO: Well, we are. We basically try to let all of our base members know, to inform all of the drivers that there is someone out there that is an imposter. Someone that is basically putting fear in people, and we need to address this issue.
COSBY: You know there is this sketch out there. Does it look like anybody that someone in the organization knows? Does anyone recognize even a glimpse of that person?
MATEO: well, what we‘re going to do tomorrow is we‘ll be handing out pictures of that sketch in different areas of the city, including Brooklyn and Queens, and we are going to let people know that if they see anyone in a taxicab that resembles this person, to immediately call 911 and report it to the police.
COSBY: Mr. Mateo, is there something significant about the area where Imette‘s body was found? Have you heard anything about that in relation to cabbies?
MATEO: Well, tomorrow, we‘re going to target the Sunset Park area of Brooklyn. We know that there is a lot of illegal cabbies operating the streets, posing as cabbies and they‘re really not. So we want to target that area, make sure that we get enough sketches, enough posters put up, make sure that we let all of the cabbies in that area know what we are looking for.
COSBY: And is that near—is that where her body was found? Is that where her body...
MATEO: It‘s not—Sunset Park isn‘t far from the area. It‘s in Brooklyn. It‘s not far from the highway where the body was dumped. So we are going to try to get close to that area and target the drivers in that particular zone of Sunset Park.
But it‘s also very important for people to understand that it‘s not legal to hail a livery cab. In New York, you have different type of cabbies. You have the yellow cabs, which clearly identify who they are, but then you have Lincoln towncars which basically represent the livery industry. And in order for you to accept a ride from one of these drivers, you are supposed to pre-arrange a ride.
COSBY: You know, we went out with a legitimate sort of black car service today. And we wanted to show everybody sort of the difference between that and sort of the popular cabs that you always see in New York. Let‘s take a look, if we could, and show everybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The difference is, their cars are all yellow; ours are all black. We don‘t have to have the safety glass in between, and we don‘t have a medallion on the hood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: How tough is it, though, do you think sometimes for the average person to decide who is a legitimate cabby and who is not? And do you understand why the public is so frightened about this?
MATEO: The public is frightened, but it‘s because the public isn‘t following instructions. You are not supposed to street hail a cab that‘s not a yellow cab. Ninety-five percent of cabbies in New York are good, hardworking people, but there is that 5 percent which constitutes a few thousand drivers that are out there robbing people, violating people, murdering people, and you have to be careful.
COSBY: How shaken are the drivers? I bet just even hearing the possible theory like this, it‘s got to be upsetting.
MATEO: The drivers are very shaken. I mean, we are shaken as an industry. We are going to go out there tomorrow, and we‘re going to do whatever we have to do to assist the city, assist the police department. We have got a great police department, and I believe that they are going to do their job and they are going to find whoever committed this crime.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And let‘s now bring in former New York police squad commander Joe Cardinale. Joe, is it possible that a killer is masquerading as a cab driver?
JOE CARDINALE, FORMER NYPD SQUAD COMMANDER: Anything is possible. I mean, you have to look at the similarities between the two incidents. I mean, the proximity is one thing, and the fact that there is a sex crime is another, and the fact that a knife was used. But I wouldn‘t put my whole stock into that theory right there.
COSBY: Yes, we are looking at a sketch, this is from the case on February 12th.
You talked about the proximity. You and I were out there. It was pretty close, right, I mean, these two incidents, you know, could it be more than coincidence?
CARDINALE: It could be. I mean, you have two ways of going, you have the Bell Parkway (ph) and you have the Conduit. And the Conduit, both of them lead right into Queens. It‘s only five minutes away. You know, you have to just look at the similarities and base it on that.
The police department is not going to rule it out, but they are not going to put, you know, everything into this one incident. I mean, they are going to definitely either go with it or rule it out, and then they‘re going to go on to another avenue, if they have to.
COSBY: And in fact, they are looking at a lot of theories tonight.
This is among them.
You know, the same guy, if indeed it is the same guy, in the first case, he sexually assaulted a woman and then dumped her out. She survived. Why only sexually assault her, you know, let her go, and then if it is this guy, the next case, something much more serious, this horrible thing that happened to Imette?
CARDINALE: If it is the same guy, maybe there was no resistance. Maybe our second victim did resist, and that could be the difference, if it is the same guy. And I‘ll tell you right now, I think it‘s a big if for it, you know, being the same guy.
COSBY: Where would you look, Joe? You know, a lot of the cop contacts I was talking to today, they said they do believe this is random. Doesn‘t that make it much more difficult?
CARDINALE: Oh, sure it does. I mean, the fact—you really have to start back at the bars where she was last seen, and then work your way into Brooklyn. And also there is that long timeframe in between. And that‘s why I said yesterday the time of death is going to be very important, because if he held on to her for a long period when she was dead, you know, where was he for that period of time?
COSBY: You know, you got her pal, Claire Hagen (ph), a very good friend of hers, the last person that we know of that talked to her when she went into that second bar. Does she hold any clues? Is there something maybe in the tone of her voice or something—is there anything that she could provide that you think, Joe?
CARDINALE: I‘m sure she spoke to the police at length, and definitely she is the last person she spoke to. That‘s the last link right there. And I think mostly, they have to just reach out to the public, and the public has to understand that no matter how small they think their information is, it‘s important. They have to, you know, call up and like I said the other night, if you want to remain anonymous, that‘s fine. Just if you have something, if you saw something, call it in. Because that‘s what—you have to go between the link between Manhattan and Brooklyn. And if they took that area coming along the Bell parkway (ph), past the Verrazzano, you know, there are hotels along the way. If they came another way onto Pennsylvania Avenue, we spoke about the other two hotels that are over there. But it may not even be a hotel. Maybe it was a different location. But whatever it is, somebody has to provide some clues.
COSBY: You know, we have heard—we‘ve just heard from Carol D‘Aurio, 1010 WINS, she was talking about this tape. Unfortunately, there was tape placed on Imette‘s face. No fingerprints so far. What do you glean from that? Could it be, you know, just that they couldn‘t pick up a print, or could it be that this is someone fairly experienced, that had gloves on or something?
CARDINALE: Gloves is always a possibility. If he took the time to plan how he was going to do it, then, you know, he planned to have gloves on. But there is other evidence that I‘m sure they are focusing on from the rug and from the way she was bound. There is different scenarios that they are running through right now, and they are going to run down every lead. And I‘m quite confident they are going to get the guy.
COSBY: Let‘s hope so. Joe, thank you.
And up next, everybody, we are going to speak to one of Imette‘s closest professors, to find out what her school is doing to catch her killer.
And that is not all tonight. Take a look.
Still ahead, these two women say they went to Cancun for some fun in the sun, but now they are really feeling the heat. Crime suspects in a brutal double murder. Are these two moms actually cold-blooded assassins, or were they simply in the wrong place at the wrong time?
Plus, two months after the Sago mining tragedy, we‘ll tell you why even the sole survivor‘s doctors are surprised by his recovery.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His recovery has been miraculous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Randal McCloy‘s wife Anna joins us for a special prime-time interview.
And it‘s one of the most controversial movies of the Oscar season. “TransAmerica,” the story of a sex change operation. Now we will meet someone who actually went through this dramatic sex surgery, and hear firsthand what it‘s like to be both a man and a woman. That‘s coming up LIVE & DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the roommates I live with is my girlfriend, and you know, she works really late at night, and this stuff really—I‘m definitely going to, you know, raise this issue and I am concerned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, clearly many concerned residents in New York tonight after the vicious murder of 24-year-old graduate student Imette St. Guillen. Police are now investigating if there is a link between Imette‘s death and another sexual assault in the same area where her body was found. In that case, a suspect, seen here in the sketch, posed as a cabdriver and attacked a female passenger.
Joining me now is private investigator Vito Colucci. Also, Tampa, Florida prosecutor Pam Bondi and psychologist Caryn Stark.
Pam, do you think that these cases could be related? I mean, they are very close just physically, logistically.
PAM BONDI, PROSECUTOR: Absolutely, Rita. Certainly they could be related. Based on everything you have said tonight, it appears that they could be. And it‘s horrible that this person is still out there.
COSBY: It is. It‘s absolutely horrible.
I want to walk through some of the things that we know about the case. Let‘s first talk about the tape. We know that there was unfortunately clear tape on her, placed on her face. It‘s just horrible, just the brutality.
Knowing now, Vito, that there were no fingerprints on the tape, what does this say about the killer?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTITOR: Well, you know, I‘m not 100 percent sure that this guy tidied up, just because there is no fingerprints on the tape. You know, I can‘t imagine this guy cleaning up a crime scene because of the viciousness of what this man did. I believe, though, Rita, the biggest thing on this if it‘s the same individual that raped that young lady, that sketch, you can almost guarantee that the sketch that the rape victim gave is to a T. Someone is going to turn in that individual. Somebody that‘s raped is going to know every single thing about the individual that did that and give a perfect picture like that, believe me.
COSBY: Let‘s hope. And you know, Caryn, as we talk about the tape, what is the significance of putting this tape on someone‘s face like that?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, this is somebody, Rita, who gets off by destruction and torturing someone. And it would seem to me, I would clearly suspect, that he‘s had a history of doing this before. The fact that there aren‘t any fingerprints there, and the fact that if it‘s really true, that she died a slow death, this is someone who probably has struck before, and we need to be very aware of the fact that he might do so again.
COSBY: You know, Vito, let‘s talk about another piece of evidence. A sock was placed in her mouth. The significance obviously, what, to keep her quiet?
COLUCCI: Yeah, I would imagine that. Just everything he did to her was such a torture, Rita. I have been involved in police and private detective work for 30 years, and this one is right up at the top, even though I‘m not on this case. It‘s incredible what was done.
But one thing I think has to be emphasized to the viewing public, to the women—and the police departments always downplay that they may have a serial killer or something of that nature—they have to go out in pairs. They cannot go out by themselves. This person is a coward. He is going to key on one tiny woman like this 100-pound woman. Women have to go out in pairs. And the police department and the TV news channels need to say this over and over again.
COSBY: Yes, and it‘s horrible that you have to—that we live in that society where you have to think about that, but you‘re right, Vito.
You know, let‘s talk about the quilt, which we showed a couple of days ago. This floral quilt, very distinctive quilt, that they believe came from—commercial grade, from a nearby like hotel or motel. Caryn, we also know that the killer wrapped her body up in this quilt. It‘s a very bright quilt. In fact, I hope there is a picture of it with the pattern.
Do you think the killer wanted her to be seen?
STARK: I think the killer clearly wanted her to be seen. I think the killer wants to play games and be known. This is—this is a person who feels very powerless in the real world, and so the only power he has is through killing, destructiveness, and getting the attention of the public and the police.
And I do want to emphasize again, just like Vito did that, he is going to prey upon people who are weak. And New Yorkers are always in a hurry. Do not take that kind of a cab. Look for a yellow cab.
COSBY: One of the things we learned today was something about her hair. That half of her hair—she is a beautiful, beautiful brunette girl with long brown hair—and some of her hair was—half of her hair was cut. Pam, what‘s the significance? Why would he keep that? Is that a token?
BONDI: You know, Rita, that‘s what it seems. Doesn‘t it? It seems like it‘s almost out of a horrible movie. What he is doing, it doesn‘t even make sense. But it does—it seems like he is a potential serial killer, and you are doing a great thing by publicizing this so people know to be cautious and that he is out there.
COSBY: You know, Pam, there was also—there was some unfortunately some damage to her body, some cuts. What is the significance? Why would someone do that? I mean, it‘s just horrible what they did, but why mentally would someone do that kind of thing?
BONDI: Well, you know, Rita, rape even is a crime of violence. It‘s not necessarily a sexual crime. We always say it‘s a crime of violence, and he just—he tortured her and he tried to hurt her as much as he could. And from what we‘ve been told, she fought back and she had several broken fingernails. And we will see—DNA now is an amazing thing. And we will see what evidence the law enforcement can obtain from her body and from even those marks that he left on her body.
COSBY: You know, Vito, there is this, quote, “anonymous” call that came from the diner, which is just a few miles away from where her body was found. Do you think it‘s an anonymous call, or do you think it‘s the killer?
COLUCCI: You know, I‘m torn on that one, Rita. I think it‘s 50-50 in my mind. You know, it could be the killer; he is toying with the police, like some of these guys do, OK, or it could be somebody that innocently went down that road, a truck driver, whatever, saw the body, does not want to get involved.
So I‘m really torn on that.
But you know, one thing Mayor Bloomberg said before about identifying these cars, it‘s not that easy, Rita. The car that picked me up tonight for the show is the same SUV that took you to the crime scene the other day. So it‘s not—I see this SUV pulling up. It‘s not just like a set Lincoln Continental. There is all types of vehicles out there, and a lot of the illegal ones, like we‘ve said before. So you have got to be very careful out there.
COSBY: It is, and it‘s very confusing in New York City, especially heavy traffic, people grabbing whatever car they can get.
All of you, thank you very much. Imette‘s brutal murder has shocked many people across the country. Today, well wishers sent flowers to her family‘s home in Boston as friends and relatives gathered there to remember her on what would have been her 25th birthday. Her funeral will be held there on Saturday.
And I‘m joined now by one of Imette‘s professors at John Jay College, Richard Culp.
Richard, how outraged are you when you hear what happened to Imette?
RICHARD CULP, PH.D., JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: Well, it‘s terrible, and I think I want to convey both my deepest sympathy and that of all our fellow students to her family. It‘s just a horrible thing.
COSBY: you know, what do you want to say to this sick person, the monster who did this?
CULP: Well, I don‘t know that I have anything to say to the perpetrator, but I‘m hopeful, as all the rest of the faculty and students at John Jay are, that whoever did this is going to be brought to justice very swiftly.
COSBY: You bet. You know, we talked to her mom the other night, a few nights ago, and just obviously, needless to say, just gutwrenched and just pleading for people to come forward. I want to show a little clip of what she had to say on the show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She walked into the room, the room just lit up. And she just made things fun. And you just felt so much better in her presence. She was a beautiful girl, but she was a bright girl and she was a good person. Such a good person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Richard, what can you tell us about Imette?
CULP: Well, I—listening to that clip, I, you know, I have a lump in my throat, I think as everyone else in the class does. She is everything her mother said she was. And she was extremely bright student, very well liked by all the other students. Close to a number of students. Her work was first class. She was in my class—the graduate policy analysis class this semester. And she was one of four students that was acing the class. She was already working on a project. She was interested in studying treatment programs for women drug offenders, and was doing a policy analysis of that for the semester in our class. We are going to miss her tremendously.
COSBY: You know, Richard, when you hear this and you hear about, you know, just her passion, this was really, you know, a young lady who wanted to make a difference. Right? Do good things for people.
CULP: Absolutely. And you know, right from the beginning of the class, one of the first things we were talking about, it‘s a policy class and we were discussing how juvenile crime—juvenile violent crime in Boston has been going up after a number of years of decline. And the question posed to the students and we were discussing is, why is that? You know, why is crime going back up? And Imette, being from Boston, chimed right in, and was familiarizing the class with—most of the students are from New York or other places—with the circumstances in Boston and talking about how the economic change in some of the inner city neighborhoods in Boston and the need for greater opportunities for juveniles. That‘s the kind of approach that she was taking.
COSBY: How did the student body learn about it and how were they handling this (INAUDIBLE)?
CULP: Same as everyone, I think, through the news media. It was in the New York papers on Monday morning. I got calls Monday morning from a couple of my students, also from faculty, and found out about it. And so that‘s—basically found out the way everyone else did.
COSBY: You know, her former boyfriend, also a fellow student at the college, gave a statement and I want to put that up if I could. He said:
“If there is anybody in this world who didn‘t deserve to die, it was her. If there is anybody with information to please come forward and find this trash.”
I‘m sure there is a lot of anger and a lot of frustration and just a sense of concern there.
CULP: Yeah. The students that I‘ve talked to, the mood ranges from anger, a lot of students are angry. A number of students talk about being afraid. A number of the women students. We have classes that go well into the evening, and we are in the middle of the city, Upper West Side of the city, but you know, it‘s an urban environment, and students leave late hours. During the winter months, it‘s dark early.
But universally, all of the students sort of have been conveying a sense of hope, you know, the desire that this be brought to a just end, and that Imette would have wanted it that way. You know, her focus was on finding solutions for crime problems. She had an interest in forensic psychology. She had and interest in criminology. And this is what she would have wanted, you know, for it to be solved in a professional, just way.
COSBY: We just have a few seconds left, but as a criminal justice student and obviously her colleagues there, are they trying to maybe even help solve this? Are they trying to piece it together?
CULP: No, I don‘t think so. I think we are going to let the professionals do that. And my hope is that your attention, Rita, to this and other people as well may help for the missing piece of the puzzle to come forward. And that, you know, we can solve this crime as soon as possible.
COSBY: Well, we certainly hope so. Richard, our prayers are with you and of course with everyone there at the college. And we will continue to follow all the latest developments on this story. And again, you just heard from Richard and the family.
If you have any information about this case, please, please call crimestoppers at 1-800-577-TIPS. That‘s 1-800-577-TIPS. And also be sure to watch “Dateline NBC” this Saturday night as they follow the latest developments in the gruesome murder of Imette St. Guillen. Again, that is “Dateline,” Saturday night at 8 p.m. Eastern time.
And still ahead, everybody, a tragedy in the Jackson family. One of the Jackson Five‘s former band members is murdered. And now police need your help in tracking down the killer.
Plus, imagine vacationing in paradise, only to be framed for a crime that you did not commit. We‘re going to tell you how two housewives ended up as unlikely suspects in a bizarre murder case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And a developing story to tell you about tonight. The drummer for the original Jackson 5 found stabbed to death in his own home. Joining me now live on the phone tonight is Commander Jack Arnold with the Gary, Indiana, police department.
Commander, you know, we understand it‘s somebody of the Jackson 5.
Why were police called to his home?
CMDR. JACK ARNOLD, GARY, INDIANA, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, last night, about 11:30 last night, another resident of the home where Mr. Jackson was visiting—it wasn‘t actually his home; it was a couple of acquaintances of his. One of the subjects upstairs heard a disturbance downstairs between him and a female that he has been seeing. And when he went downstairs, the female was gone, and Mr. Jackson was lying there with a stab wound to his chest.
COSBY: Now, any idea what they were arguing about, what the fuss was about?
ARNOLD: No, that really wasn‘t heard by the gentlemen who was staying upstairs. He had just heard a disturbance, and went down to check on it, and found his friend.
COSBY: Now, you said that he was stabbed. Did he die at the scene?
Was he taken to the hospital?
ARNOLD: No, he died at the scene. He was pronounced dead at about 12:20 a.m. this morning by the Lake County coroner‘s office. He died of a stab wound to the sternum.
COSBY: And what about this woman? You said the woman wasn‘t there.
Do we have any idea who she was or a description of her?
ARNOLD: It‘s a known party of Mr. Jackson. It‘s one of his possible girlfriends. And as we speak, investigators are out canvassing the neighborhood trying to locate her.
COSBY: You know, we talk about—we were hearing that Mr. Jackson may be a cousin or a relative, but then not may not be of the Jackson 5. But what do you know of his relationship to the famous singing group?
ARNOLD: Well, my understanding is that he is the original drummer for the Jackson 5 and that he may have recorded their first album as the drummer.
COSBY: Very sad news. Thank you very much, Commander. We appreciate it. I hope you were able to track that woman down.
Well, imagine going on vacation for a little sun and fun only to return home and find out you are the prime suspect in a horrific double murder. Two young Canadian moms say they are living a nightmare and are being framed.
During their last night of vacation near Cancun, a mysterious double murder took place right down the hall from the room, and Mexican police say the women did it.
Joining us now live for his first American TV interview is Lee Baig.
He is the attorney for the two accused young women.
You know, these are two mothers in their 30s. Are they murderers, Mr.
Baig?
LEE BAIG, ATTORNEY FOR ACCUSED TOURISTS: Not in the slightest.
COSBY: Well, how do you think the Mexicans arrived at, you know, the supposition that they may be?
BAIG: Well, my belief is they‘re attempting to protect the reputation of Cancun as a safe tourist resort. Hours after the investigation began, they had already concluded that there was these big, strong, Canadian women who had fled the scene who were the culprits.
Well, my clients are neither—well, they‘re not big. They may be strong; I don‘t know. But they didn‘t flee the scene. They left when their charter was leaving. It had been booked six weeks beforehand.
COSBY: So who do you think did this?
BAIG: Well, I have no idea, but they have no connection to any of the deceased people. They weren‘t there in that group. They didn‘t know anything about it.
COSBY: Well, one of the things, we understand that there was, what, a bit of a blood trail to their room and they also heard some screams. Tell us what happened that they saw and heard that night.
BAIG: Well, it wasn‘t that night. It was 8:00 in the morning. It‘s apparently when the bodies of the deceased people were discovered. But there was—there had been, according to other witnesses, a blood trail, partial footprints in blood, in the hallway. And maids were walking around cleaning up the blood. So there‘s no protected the crime scene; nobody knows how the blood gets moved around.
COSBY: Now, did your clients see this couple that was killed? Did they run into them at all during their vacation?
BAIG: They may have, but they‘re not aware of it. I mean, it‘s a big hotel. They may have seen them, may not have. We don‘t know.
COSBY: And now, how did they find out? What was their reaction? As, you know, we were looking at pictures of them before, of Everall and Kim, you know, when they found out the Mexican government, they‘re looking at them? How did they find out? And what did they say and do?
BAIG: Well, the first notification they had was that one of their friends called and said, “Hey, there was a double murder at the hotel you were at.” So, you know, they were mildly interested. One of them got on the ‘net and discovered that, indeed, that was true.
Then Mexican authorities announced names of persons that were markedly similar to theirs and then they talked about a blood trail to their room. So they got quite afraid and did the appropriate thing. They went to the Thunder Bay police and made full and complete statements and cooperated fully with the police.
COSBY: Now, do either of them have any criminal history? And is there any reason that—was there anything suspicious or anything that they did, even, you know, in innocence, but triggered something to other folks?
BAIG: No, nothing. They have no criminal background, not even a speeding ticket. They‘re both young mothers. One of them is about to graduate as a doctor. One of them is a palliative care coordinator. They‘re volunteers in the community. They‘re active in church groups.
They‘re just wonderful assets to our community.
COSBY: You know, and they‘re Canadian. Is the government planning on doing anything to intervene and say, “Hey, Mexico, back off. Where‘s the proof?”
BAIG: Well, there‘s a long process involved. The Mexicans haven‘t made official requests yet, but the RCMP is, at this point, involved to some extent.
COSBY: The Royal Canadian Mounted Police?
BAIG: Oh, yes, sorry, the Mounties.
COSBY: Yep, the Mountains. And are they planning to step in, should it get to that point?
BAIG: Well, they can‘t step in. It‘s in Mexican jurisdiction. All they can do is sort of observe and maybe advise.
COSBY: Well, we‘ll be watching this case. Thank you very much. We appreciate it.
And still ahead, everybody, two months after the Sago mining tragedy, what does the sole survivor remember about that terrible accident? The wife of Randal McCloy is going to join us for a very special primetime interview. That‘s next.
And later, he‘s an attorney for one of the most controversial courts in the U.S., but not everyone knows that this guy used to be a girl. We‘re going to talk to him about what it‘s like to change sexes. That‘s next on LIVE & DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: It‘s now been two months since the Sago mine disaster where 12 miners lost their lives. Tonight, a very important update on the sole survivor of the tragedy and his miraculous recovery. Randal McCloy is still undergoing rehab at a hospital in Morgantown, West Virginia, but is getting better every day.
His family has never given up hope. Earlier, I asked his wife, Anna and his doctors how his recovery is going.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNA MCCLOY, WIFE OF SAGO MINE SURVIVOR: He‘s joking and conversating with me and the children, like he would at home, and just being the old Randy.
COSBY: And he actually is getting a sense of humor again, which I think is incredible. How surprised are you to see this?
MCCLOY: I‘m amazed, because he had a really good sense of humor at home. He was always laughing and joking, and I was afraid he was going to lose that, but it‘s there. And it gives me hope, very strong hope.
COSBY: Does he remember—have you talked at all about what happened?
MCCLOY: He has mentioned a few things about the accident. And, you know, he remembers bits and pieces of what‘s happened to him and everything. I‘ve not actually come out myself and questioned him or brought it up when he talks about it. I listen to him and talk with you about it. And then, when he is ready to talk to the full extent of the accident, then I‘ll be there to listen.
COSBY: Does he talk about wanting to go home and spend more time in the home?
MCCLOY: Every day he mentions about going home, every day.
COSBY: And I understand he‘s getting a little bit of an appetite.
You‘re helping him to eat, right?
MCCLOY: Yes, yes. He does not like hospital food.
COSBY: He doesn‘t? What is he eating?
MCCLOY: Fast food. You know, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, McDonald‘s, anything that I find different, to feeding Applebee‘s.
COSBY: How amazing has it been for you? Of course, I hear that when you walk in the room, his eyes just light up. I mean, that must just be so wonderful for you as a wife to see.
MCCLOY: Yes, yes, because I was so afraid before from the beginning that that personality and that character who makes Randy him wasn‘t going to be there, because, you know, with brain injury, your personality and character can change. And with him, it has not. So I have the most important pieces of him here.
COSBY: Are you surprised at his progress? You know, a lot of people didn‘t know if he would make it.
MCCLOY: Yes, I‘m surprised, at one point. But then, really in the back of my mind from the get-go, I‘ve always believed that he was going to recover, because, you know, God‘s there to help him. He helped him through the mines. He‘s going to help him through this. And Randy is strong-willed and determined; he‘s not going to stop.
COSBY: I understand you haven‘t also gone home since all of that.
Why is that? I hear that it‘s sort of beautiful reason.
MCCLOY: Well, no, I haven‘t been home. Today will be two months since I‘ve been in my own home, because our home is family. You‘re there. You live there together. You stay there together. And, right now, Randy is not there, so it‘s not—you know, we‘ll go home together as a family, like it should be.
COSBY: In terms of recuperation, how is he doing with his progress, Dr. Buindo?
DR. RUSSELL BUINDO, HEALTHSOUTH MOUNTAINVIEW HOSPITAL: Oh, his progress is amazing. He has sincerely transformed. He went from a young man who was, again, badly injured, severely injured, not responsive at all to anything. He was basically in a near coma or minimally responsive state. He was not able to be aware of anyone around him, or at least every time we checked him.
And then you look at him this day, you look at him this morning—I just examined him earlier this morning—he‘s able to articulate. He‘s able to express himself. Clearly, he does have some mild memory difficulty still, and he has some challenges still ahead of him. But his recovery has been miraculous.
COSBY: Doctor Bailes, has the family support helped and how much more does he have to go?
DR. JULIAN BAILES, WEST VIRGINIA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, naturally, the family support has been integral from the very beginning. And we talked about that and certainly encouraged it, not that we could have kept Anna away if we could have tried, but we didn‘t want to.
This is an injury to the white matter of the brain. He lost the myelin sheaths that‘s well-known with carbon monoxide poisoning. We did think and hope that it was reversible, because that‘s been reported. It‘s just that Randy was the longest known survivor of that kind of exposure, to our knowledge.
And so we had a great challenge. And at WVU hospital, at rehabilitation, every staff nurse, and physician, therapist have all played a tremendous role in this remarkable recovery. And I think we can safely say with certainty that he‘s way ahead of schedule of what we thought he would be.
COSBY: You know, Anna, how are you holding up through this ordeal?
It has been beautiful, just your love and support for your husband.
MCCLOY: Well, from the beginning, it was very hard, because, you know, of course you don‘t expect something like this to happen to you. And it was just like a dream. I was expecting to wake up from this dream and, you know, and it to be all over, but it‘s getting better now that he‘s able to conversate, and know me, and know the kids, and that makes it a lot easier. It makes the process a lot easier.
COSBY: Well, our thoughts and prayers are with you. And it‘s so wonderful to see you again. And keep up the wonderful work you‘re doing for your husband. Thanks so much.
MCCLOY: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And our thanks to Anna for that great interview. And a fund has now been set up for anyone wishing to help with the cost of Randal McCloy‘s recovery. You can send donations to the address that you see now on your screen. It‘s the Randal McCloy, Jr., Fund, care of Clear Mountain Bank, 1889 Earl Core Road, Morgantown, West Virginia, 26505.
And still ahead, everybody, we‘ll meet a powerful attorney who says he was a man born into the body of a woman until he went under the knife to change his gender. We‘re going to ask him what‘s really involved in a sex change operation.
Plus, a wild chase in Los Angeles as police chase one of their own cops. That‘s right, one of their own cars. That‘s coming up on LIVE & DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FELICITY HUFFMAN, ACTRESS: The usual electrolysis, three years of hormone therapy, and a facial feminization surgery. After my operation, I will be a woman.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, that was a clip from the Oscar-nominated film, “Transamerica.” The controversial movie is getting lots of attention because of its focus on the life of a preoperative male-to-female transsexual.
And tonight, we‘re getting a rare firsthand account from someone who has completed one of these surgeries. His name is Dhillon Khosla, and he was born a woman and is now living a full life as a full-blown male. And he also has a new book coming out, called “Both Sides Now.” It chronicles his transition.
Dhillon, when did you decide—when did you have a sense that you wanted to make this change physically—you were born a female—to become a male?
DHILLON KHOSLA, WENT THROUGH SEX CHANGE OPERATION: Well, first of all, I knew very early on as a child. And in fact, in Europe, I lived as a boy, believed I would grow into a man, and the children accepted me as a boy on the playground. It was one of those things were there was a blueprint that I came into the world with, and I just carried that conviction.
Then I moved to America, and sort of hit puberty, and didn‘t have any
reference point for that belief anymore. And my mind suppressed it, I
think, partly so that I could survive and continue into adulthood, until I eventually had an ex-girlfriend who brought an article to me from the “New Yorker” about people who had done this surgery.
And all of a sudden, I realized that all of this sort of belief that I had as a kid, all of these sort of notions and dreams that I had that I was really a man inside had a context and a biological reference. And I immediately set about looking for the best surgeons and starting the process so that I could be whole again.
COSBY: And, you know, it‘s amazing, when you look at the pictures of you before and after just the surgeries. How many surgeries have you had and how complex?
KHOSLA: Well, you know, I had nothing on my face. That‘s just pure hormones. But it took 15 surgeries what should have taken five, because this is the really the most complicated side of the transition. And I have so many brutal complications. I actually almost died during one surgery because of blood loss. And it was just this deep, deep pact and fight to honor something I knew was true.
COSBY: Was it worth it?
KHOSLA: Oh, absolutely. You know, I mean I really know what I‘m made of, and I know that I have what I would say enough self-love to bring this literal conviction, this pact that I had as a kid all the way home. And I don‘t think you can ever put a price on that.
COSBY: You know, you talked about sort of the look on one of your friend‘s faces. This is an excerpt from your book that‘s coming up. And you talked about sort of the look that they had when you came out. And it says, “It was a look that held nothing but pure joy and excitement. It was a look that said, ‘I am so happy for you,‘ and it was also a look that made me feel so ashamed.”
Why were you ashamed? This was something you did voluntarily.
KHOSLA: No, no, no. The only shame I had was that particular incident was a guy that I knew before that I was actually really rude and dismissive towards. And what I realized was all of this attitude and sometimes competitive rage I had towards men was about me having this cramped jealously, and envy, and competition, and thinking, “I‘m really a better guy than you. It‘s not fair.”
And all of a sudden, here is the other side of the transition. I see the same guy, who‘s nothing but kind towards me, and I realize, “Oh, my God.” I had all this stuff going on before, and had I not fixed this, I would still be that person, and I would still be projecting that stuff onto other people.
COSBY: Yes, what do you think of all the attention, you know, with the film, “Transamerica”? Of course, you know, very popular. The Oscars are coming up. With all the attention on this issue, is that good? Is it bad?
KHOSLA: I think it‘s the beginning of good. I think the difficulty for people like myself is dealing with words like “transgender,” because historically those words have really been used by people who don‘t feel like they‘re either men or women. And so having those labels and knowing that, when I go public, the word “man” might get taken away from me is the hardest part of this journey.
COSBY: Now, you‘re an attorney.
KHOSLA: Yes.
COSBY: And I have to ask you, you know, you go through this surgery. You come back to work. You know, the woman who worked in the office is now a man. What‘s the reaction?
KHOSLA: Well, you know, it‘s not like an overnight thing, Rita. It takes months and months of hormones and surgeries, so...
COSBY: And how did they react? How did your coworkers, and friends, and family react?
KHOSLA: Well, you know, we already had a good bond. And they really honestly, from the heart, walked this journey with me. They were very kind. I wish I could have holed up and then showed up when I was done, but I didn‘t have that choice, and I couldn‘t have picked a better place.
And maybe because it was a courthouse and we do things behind the scenes anyway, and our brains matter more than whatever body they show up in, but I had some good people with me. And I owe them a great, great tribute. This book is a tribute to them, as well.
KHOSLA: Yes, and also, you‘re dating now? Do you tell prospective women, “Hey, by the way, I used to be a lady”?
KHOSLA: Well, I mean certainly—I like five-hour dinners. I have a European background, so at some point we have some sort of conversation. The problem is sometimes they do the other thing. They utopianize it and think that, perhaps, you know, I‘ll do 50 percent of the housework, or I don‘t leave my socks on the floor. But that‘s a little bit of a disappointment, I think.
COSBY: Well, thank you very much, Dhillon, for a very frank, and outspoken, and honest book. And we appreciate you being with us. Thank you very much.
KHOSLA: Thank you for having me.
COSBY: Thank you.
And coming up, everybody, another freeway chase in Los Angeles, but this time it‘s the cop car that‘s fleeing the law. We‘re going to explain. That‘s next, on LIVE & DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: In our “Caught by Cosby,” it‘s not every day that you see cops in a high-speed chase with one of their own vehicles, but that‘s exactly what happened today in Los Angeles. A female driver stole a police SUV after being questioned by cops about another car theft.
The woman, who reportedly has a long criminal record, led police on a two-hour chase. She was eventually arrested and could face several charges, including grand theft and also evading arrest.
And coming up next week, loved ones missing at sea. Now their families are fighting for justice, and they‘re going to the nation‘s capital to get some answers about the cruise ship industry. We‘re going to bring you their stories next week.
And that does it for me on LIVE & DIRECT. I‘m Rita Cosby. Michael Smerconish in for Joe. It starts right now.
Good to see you, Michael.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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