updated 3/15/2006 2:10:24 PM ET 2006-03-15T19:10:24

Guests: Veronika Belenkaya, Kevin O‘Donnell, Samara Sodos, Benjamin Crump, Daniel Spitz, Lyda Longa, Pat Brown, Greg Pringle, Dave Feige, Shelley Albert

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight: Did this brutal beating caught on tape kill a teenage boy?  One of America‘s most famous forensic scientists may just have shattered these security guards‘ defense.  And word tonight of a new serial killer on the loose in one of America‘s top resort cities and spring break destinations.  Who is he stalking, and also who is in danger?

But first tonight, some new developments in the case of 24-year-old graduate student Imette St. Guillen.  A grand jury is now reviewing the case against Darryl Littlejohn.  Results could come back this week for the man that police call the prime suspect in Imette‘s brutal murder, torture and also rape and also ultimately savage murder.

In just a few minutes, I‘ll be speaking to Littlejohn‘s attorney, and we‘ll ask him about the evidence against his client.  Meanwhile, at home in Boston, Imette‘s mother and family continue to grieve as they wait for answers.

Joining me now is “New York Daily News” reporter Veronika Belenkaya. 

She is the only reporter who has ever met with Littlejohn face to face.  Veronika, let me start real quick—when are you hearing that a possible indictment could come down?

VERONIKA BELENKAYA, “NEW YORK DAILY NEWS”:  It may come down late this week or early next week.  I‘m not quite sure on that yet.

COSBY:  You‘re getting a sense that it‘s still a few days away? 

That‘s what we‘re hearing.

BELENKAYA:  Yes.

COSBY:  Give us a sense of what the charges that the grand jury is looking at, what they‘re seeking from prosecutors, at this point?

BELENKAYA:  Well, as “The Daily News” reported today, from what I understand, they‘re looking at life without parole and they‘re looking for murder, murder in the first degree in the murder of Imette.

COSBY:  And what do we know about these prosecutors?  We got a little glimpse today of sort of who‘s going to be handling this case.

BELENKAYA:  Right.  From what I understand, they‘re looking at having district attorney Charles (SIC) Taub doing this, and he‘s a very experienced man.  He‘s done quite a few—he‘s done quite a few high-profile cases.  He‘s been known for putting away serial killers and cop murderers, so he‘s a very qualified man.

COSBY:  You know, you‘re the only reporter who‘s ever spoke to Darryl Littlejohn.  What‘s your impression?  You and I spoke soon after they were questioning him.  Now we‘re hearing that an indictment, it seems almost imminent.  What‘s your sense on him now?

BELENKAYA:  You know, you never know who you meet.  At the time when I met him, he was a very good witness to me.  He was a man who was the only employee at the time willing to speak to me and acknowledge the fact that he‘s actually seen this girl.  So he volunteered the fact that he had seen her.  He told me about it.  Right now, it‘s coming out that what he told me is, in fact, not exactly what happened.  But at the time, what he said was that she came in, sat in the middle of the bar, had a few drinks, didn‘t finish the second one.  So he seemed to know, you know, a good bit about the last time anybody had seen her.

COSBY:  Veronika, thank you very much.

So what does this all mean for Darryl Littlejohn?  Joining me now right here LIVE AND DIRECT in our studio tonight is Littlejohn‘s attorney, Kevin O‘Donnell.  Kevin, I know you‘ve met with your client.  You met with him yesterday, right, at Rikers?

KEVIN O‘DONNELL, DARRYL LITTLEJOHN‘S ATTORNEY:  Yes.

COSBY:  What‘s his reaction to the word that it seems, you know, an indictment is imminent?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, he‘s not surprised by it, Rita, but his concern is the same as mine is, the concern that I‘ve been sharing since I‘ve been on the case, and that‘s that because of all the intense media scrutiny and the animal that he‘s been portrayed to be throughout the media, it‘s going to very be difficult for him to get a fair trial.

COSBY:  Do you think he can get a fair trail?  Does that mean if it goes to an indictment and it goes to a trial that you‘re looking at, what, maybe trying to change, try to move it out?

O‘DONNELL:  No, I still think that Brooklyn is the best place for him to get a fair trial, where he‘ll get a jury of his peers.

COSBY:  What did he look like?  What‘s his mood?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, his mood is—he‘s very concerned.  He‘s not surprised about the indictment.  I‘m not surprised about the indictment.  I expect it.  But his concern is that when he gets—if he gets out from under this, how is he ever going to lead a normal life?

COSBY:  Does he maintain his innocence?  You know, you said to me on the phone before that he says his life is ruined.  What has he said to you?

O‘DONNELL:  He‘s said the same thing to me.  And you know, my heart goes out to the family of Imette.  I can‘t imagine what they‘re going through, and I am not going to put her on trail here.  She is entitled to walk around the streets of Manhattan at 4:00 AM, just like she is at noon.  However, I‘m concerned about the system.  The system has to maintain its integrity, and I believe that the integrity of the investigation has been compromised because of all the intense media scrutiny as a result of police leaks.

COSBY:  What do you say about the fact that here it‘s been, you know, a bit of time, and the only direct link to him so far, we‘re hearing, is about this invisible sort of trace of blood on the white tie that was binding Imette, his blood matching it?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, initially, Rita, we‘ve heard that there were shoelaces that were used to bind her.  Then we heard that it was wire.  Now we‘re hearing that there were these ties.  There‘s all kinds of conflicting reports.  And I‘ve just commenced an investigation, and we have received some details that I think will counteract some of the reports that the public has been hearing about.

COSBY:  Is it specifically on the ties?

O‘DONNELL:  No, not about the ties.  I can‘t comment on that because I haven‘t received any of the DNA reports.

COSBY:  Is there any logical reason that he‘s gleaned to you that—why his blood could be on those ties?

O‘DONNELL:  I‘m not going to get into that now.  And because I haven‘t had a chance to have my experts review those reports, it‘s premature for me to discuss that.

COSBY:  Talk about the witnesses because some witnesses have come forward.  There was a homeless woman.  There‘s a homeless man by the name of Miguel Angel Cruz (ph).  And in fact, let me show a little comment.  This is from Commissioner Ray Kelly over the weekend.

O‘DONNELL:  Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER:  There are witness that put the victim in the company of Mr. Littlejohn when she left the bar that evening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  We got this Miguel Angel Cruz, who says that he saw a blue van driven by Littlejohn, with a ladder in the back, and that he said he saw Imette get in.

O‘DONNELL:  Well, we received numerous phone calls from people that spoke to Mr. Cruz immediately after Imette‘s body was recovered, and they‘re telling us that Mr. Cruz told them that he didn‘t see anything.  And that‘s corroborated today by the fact that we know that Mr.  Littlejohn‘s van stayed in that driveway for the last three months.  It is completely inoperable, and I would like the police to address that because I know they‘re not going to answer me, so perhaps they‘ll answer you.

COSBY:  Now, are we‘re looking at a picture—we got some video of when it was pulled into the police station.  This blue van—I just want to make sure we‘re clear.  This blue van, you‘re saying, was parked for how long inoperable?

O‘DONNELL:  Since approximately January.  And that‘s the exact van that Mr. Cruz described.  He described a blue van with a ladder in the back and a big wheel in the back.

COSBY:  So what you‘re saying is that it is impossible because this van had not moved out of Littlejohn‘s driveway, is what you‘re saying.

O‘DONNELL:  That‘s what I‘m saying.

COSBY:  And what about the silver van, the other van that was found a few blocks away from Littlejohn‘s house, where they took the back seat and they‘re testing for forensics?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, my only answer to that now, Rita, is that if Mr.  Littlejohn went to extreme—such extreme lengths to remove any type of taint, any type of evidence connecting him to this van or to the body, why would he only park it two blocks away from his house?  Why wouldn‘t he leave it in Jersey or Connecticut or even burn it?

COSBY:  Do you—again, does he say he had nothing to do with Imette‘s—you know, the rape, the torture, any of those angles of that night?

O‘DONNELL:  He‘s going to plead not guilty, and I am going to defend him to the best of my abilities.

COSBY:  Where was he that night?  When we spoke on the phone, you said he went to work, and he went home.  Is that accurate?  Has he changed his story?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, he went to work and he went home, just like he did the following night.  There was no change in his behavior the following night.  There were no scratches, and I see that there...

COSBY:  No scratches?  There‘s been reports that there was a scratch on his face.  No scratch, no wounds?

O‘DONNELL:  I didn‘t see any scratches, and I know that the police strip searched him and took pictures.  I‘d like to see those pictures.

COSBY:  But you—you understand—and you‘ve seen him?  No scratch on his neck, no visible scratch on his neck?

O‘DONNELL:  Nothing at all.

COSBY:  Nothing—and you‘re sure of that?  He‘s even—you‘ve verified that yourself?

O‘DONNELL:  I‘ve seen it—I saw it with my own two eyes.

COSBY:  And there is nothing visible, from what you‘ve seen.

O‘DONNELL:  Nothing.

COSBY:  OK.  So he goes to work, and he goes home.  Does he leave right after work?

O‘DONNELL:  I‘m not going to comment on what he told me, Rita.  We are conducting our investigation, and all I‘m looking for is for him to get a fair trial.  I want to make sure that the process remains intact.  He should be treated no differently than anybody else that‘s accused of this crime.

COSBY:  And absolutely.  And that‘s the beauty of our justice system, that we should not, obviously, convict someone before it goes to that point.

O‘DONNELL:  Correct.

COSBY:  But let me walk you through again.  You said he went to work and went home.  Did he take anybody home?

O‘DONNELL:  He took nobody home.

COSBY:  He took nobody home.  He did not drive Imette home, as some of these witnesses are sort of alleging that she got pulled into the van?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, there are plenty of people that are walking up and down that street at 4:30 in the morning, Rita.  The bars are just closing.  There‘s a diner on the corner.  There are NYU students.  And it seems to me that the only witnesses that we‘ve heard about is these two homeless people.

COSBY:  So he didn‘t drive her home?  He went right home at that point?

O‘DONNELL:  Yes.

COSBY:  What do you make of the point that cell phones—we‘re hearing that there are these hits because he made some cell phone calls, that he was in the area where the body was found the next day, soon before the body was found?

O‘DONNELL:  I heard the same thing, too, Rita.  But again, it‘s difficult for me to comment on that because I don‘t have those reports.  It‘s just like the DNA.  I want those DNA reports.  And if the commissioner is going to put that out there, I think it‘s only fair that I receive those reports now because the longer that that taint is hovering over my client‘s head, before I get a chance to challenge those allegations, it‘s only depriving his rights of a fair trail.

Now, I understand that the family of Imette deserves justice, but my client is absolutely entitled to it.

COSBY:  Was he arguing with her?  Was there anything—and now we hear it even from the bar owners, that there was some argument taking place.  You know, basically, You got to leave the bar.  You‘ve been drinking too much, seems to be the sense.  That they finally came forward after being, you know, reluctant, of course, was just a whole other issue.

O‘DONNELL:  Well, that is an issue, and it‘s an issue that concerns me.  Why would those people either change—maintain their silence at the beginning of the investigation and then change their story later?  You know, we heard that there was a taxi that was being looked at with a police sketch of a Hispanic man with a goatee.  Then they were looking for this black SUV.  Then it turned into the car that belongs to Mr. Littlejohn, that I know wasn‘t driven by him that night.

COSBY:  Did they have an argument?  Was there any shouting?  We heard now there was sort of a muffled scream.  Was there anything that went on between the two?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, if there was any kind of a muffled scream, why didn‘t anybody in the bar address that?

COSBY:  Does he, though, say that there was any sort of altercation?

O‘DONNELL:  He had no altercation with anybody.

COSBY:  There was no—can you repeat that again?

O‘DONNELL:  He didn‘t have an altercation with anybody.  What I mean by an altercation is any kind of an argument.  He did not argue with anybody that night.

COSBY:  He did not argue with Imette St. Guillen that night, either?

O‘DONNELL:  He didn‘t argue with anybody.

COSBY:  And did—was there anything amorous?  Was there anything taking place?  He‘s a bouncer at a bar.  She had been drinking, even—by even her friends‘ admission.

O‘DONNELL:  I‘m going to maintain that he did not engage in any type of physical confrontation with her at all.  My investigation is continuing right now, and I‘m not going to discuss it anymore until I have anything definitive.

COSBY:  And no flirtation, whether it‘s an innocent flirtation and nothing, obviously, untoward, is what you‘re saying, on both counts.

O‘DONNELL:  Correct.

COSBY:  Did he ask her out at all?  Was he—anything—even just a verbal?

O‘DONNELL:  I‘m not going to get into anything that he told me.

COSBY:  Did he escort her out?  Did he walk her out, as finally, the bar folks came forward?

O‘DONNELL:  Again, that‘s something that I‘m continuing to investigate.

COSBY:  Let‘s go to the bar, of course, because as you point out even yourself, why do you believe it took them so long to come forward?  And they‘re claiming that they heard a little bit of—you know, he was escorting her out.  That was the last thing that they saw.  Of course, they didn‘t come forward with that information.  Do you believe there‘s more, and does he believe there‘s maybe more of what‘s going on at the bar?

O‘DONNELL:  I‘d like there to be a thorough investigation by the New York City Police Department.  I have a lot of questions here, and I have a lot of concerns.  My initial concern is, Why did the people wait so long to either come forward or change their story?  Why did they change their story?  What are they hiding?

COSBY:  Do you believe that they may have something to do with her disappearance and what ultimately happened to her, versus your client?.

O‘DONNELL:  I don‘t know, but I find myself in the position now having to prove that my client didn‘t, which isn‘t what this system is based on.

COSBY:  But do you believe—does it seem strange to you, and does it seem strange to your client?  Is there any logical reason he has as to why they didn‘t come forward?  You know, some people are surmising that maybe, you know, he said to them, Look, don‘t tip anybody off that I walked her out.  I‘m a parolee.  Maybe I didn‘t tell you that.  Maybe something innocent.  Did he ever say that to them?  Did he ever say anything to them as to why they would not have come forward sooner?

O‘DONNELL:  No.  Mr. Littlejohn didn‘t have any type of relationship where anybody in that bar would protect him to that level.

COSBY:  So there was nothing he tipped off.  So you don‘t know why they did not come forward sooner?

O‘DONNELL:  I don‘t know, but I‘d like to know.

COSBY:  Does he surmise maybe they had some role?  Was there any sort of engagement that they had with Imette St. Guillen?

O‘DONNELL:  That‘s for the police to decide.  You know, unfortunately, the police already have made up their mind.  And if they can bring the evidence to court—because all that‘s out there right now is information.  I haven‘t had a chance to evaluate any of it.  So I‘m kind of behind the eight ball here, and it‘s depriving my client of his right to a fair trial.

COSBY:  Have you talked to the Dorrians?  Have your investigators talked to the Dorrians?

O‘DONNELL:  No.  I don‘t imagine that they would speak to us.

COSBY:  Your client—what is he doing, what is he saying again to you about this whole—as you said, he is saying, My ruined—that, My life is ruined.  And the other thing you said to me, too, is that—you know, that they want him to be the guy.  Do you believe this is—that he‘s being framed?

O‘DONNELL:  Oh, I‘m not going to get into that now.  I would like to think that the police aren‘t framing him.  I‘m a citizen, too, and I need the police protection, just like you do, Rita.  But all he‘s looking for is to be treated fairly.  And because of all the media attention—and I believe it‘s the media that‘s fueling this investigation, moreso than anything else, and that‘s a shame.

COSBY:  Who did he call at that time?  I lot of people say those calls are those critical calls.  He didn‘t call 911, right?

O‘DONNELL:  No, he‘s not the one that called 911.  I don‘t know who called 911, and I‘m not going to be given access to that tape at any time in the near future.

COSBY:  Kevin, stick with us.  I want to talk more with you after the break.

And also, what piece of evidence will prosecutors focus on against the suspect in Imette‘s brutal death?  That‘s coming up.  Take a look. 

Still ahead, did this beating kill a 14-year-old boy?  The first autopsy said no.  But tonight, find out how one of America‘s top forensic experts may have shattered that theory.  Are these security guards at a juvenile boot camp now in big trouble?  

And is a new serial killer stalking one of America‘s spring break hot spots?  We will profile the attacker and his apparent victims. 

This guy was looking for life in the fast line, but now he is paying the price, all because he had a dummy for a passenger.  He joins me live to explain his crime and his bizarre punishment.  That‘s coming up. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And we are of course talking about the Imette St. Guillen case.  Continuing with us right now is Darryl Littlejohn‘s attorney, Kevin O‘Donnell. 

Kevin, I want to ask you.  You have been to Rikers, where you have been visiting them.  Are any other people visiting him? 

O‘DONNELL:  It‘s very difficult for him to get a visit, because of the unit that he is in.  He is in the segregation unit, and it takes quite a while for me to even get face-to-face with him. 

COSBY:  Is anyone else allowed to see him, or has anyone else visited him? 

O‘DONNELL:  I believe his aunt is going to visit him tomorrow. 

COSBY:  This is aunt Addie, who I actually—I did a brief interview with.  She is going to go visit him tomorrow? 

O‘DONNELL:  I believe so. 

COSBY:  Any supporters?  Has he had anybody who‘s been calling or writing him, or at least voice support?  

O‘DONNELL:  That‘s funny that you ask that, Rita, because I have had numerous calls from very dear friends of his who are unequivocally behind him. 

COSBY:  Old friends, new friends? 

O‘DONNELL:  Old friends. 

COSBY:  He has got a girlfriend too. 

O‘DONNELL:  You know, he is a 42-year-old single man. 

COSBY:  I want to show just a list of things.  Because people look at it and say, OK, wait a minute, you know, there‘s the blood match.  Now that they‘re saying there‘s a one trillion chance on that tie.  There is also, according to some reports—and again you‘re saying that there is no scratch on the neck—cell phone records have put him at the place, witnesses say they saw him with Imette.  Of course now it‘s very questionable that the blue van—obviously, which you just addressed tonight—and also the carpet fibers apparently matching the fibers at his place, matching the tape.  All coincidence, do you think? 

O‘DONNELL:  Well, I can‘t address that, because again, I don‘t have that evidence or information.  Because it‘s not evidence yet.

COSBY:  You‘ve worked on a lot of cases.  Are you surprised you are not getting that yet? 

O‘DONNELL:  No, it‘s no surprise.  The prosecution is not going to turn that over to me until they are obligated too. 

COSBY:  Do you feel it‘s fueled that there is this, we‘ve got to get this guy, there is so much fear on the streets?

O‘DONNELL:  I think that it‘s going to be difficult for the prosecution to start looking at anybody else.  But I have faith in the system.  I have faith in the DA‘s office.  I know plenty of prosecutors out in Brooklyn DA‘s office, and I believe that they‘ll share my faith in the system.

COSBY:  You know, you have looked this guy in the eye.  My final question to you is, you say he says that I‘ve ruined—what exactly, how did he say to you about the reaction and everything? 

O‘DONNELL:  Right now, his life is ruined, and if he ever does get out from under this, how is he ever going to be able to lead a normal life?  How is he ever going to be able to walk down the street?  Because there are always going to be people, if he does get out from under this, they are going to look at him and not believe that he didn‘t have anything to do with this. 

COSBY:  You‘ve looked him in the face, in the eyes.  Do you believe him?  Do you believe that this man is innocent, despite all the different pieces of evidence there?  

O‘DONNELL:  I am going to represent my client to the best of my ability, and hold the DA to their burden of proof. 

COSBY:  Kevin O‘Donnell, thank you very much.  We appreciate you being here.

O‘DONNELL:  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

And now I want to bring in, if I could, former prosecutor Shelley Albert, and also David Feige.  He‘s a former attorney in the Bronx public defenders office and also the author of the upcoming book “Indefensible.”

You know, David, I got to tell you, I think it was really interesting, what Kevin said tonight about this blue van.  Remember, you got these two witnesses saying they saw a blue van.  And I also believe some of the women also who said—who are claiming this rape, that they were trying to pinpoint and associate with him, also point to the blue van.  That timeframe may be different, but in this case, he‘s saying that blue van didn‘t leave—you know, didn‘t leave Littlejohn‘s driveway for months, so they couldn‘t have seen him in that blue van.

DAVE FEIGE, AUTHOR, “INDEFENSIBLE”:  Yes.  I think that‘s significant, but I want to just point out the thing—one of the things you were just talking about, which is these supposed rapes because to me, that tells you more about this prosecution so far than anything else.  They are throwing this guy in every line-up they can come up with, and they‘ve got nothing.  And I find that absolutely unconscionable.

COSBY:  You know, Shelley, are you surprised, you know, that they are sort grasping—in fact, in the recent case, the Japanese woman came up and said, No, that‘s not the guy.  My guy was bigger.

SHELLEY ALBERT, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  I‘m actually not surprised that they‘re putting him in these line-ups because what they‘re looking for is something very specific happened here that didn‘t happen in a lot of other cases, and that is that the body was washed and her hair was cut.  So they‘re not U.S. troops throwing him in any single line-up that they can do or any single unsolved rape that exists in the city of New York.  They‘re looking for very specific what we call Molineau (ph) evidence, and that exists in this case because not every rapist is out there washing the bodies after they‘re done.

COSBY:  You know...

FEIGE:  You know what?  There‘s a problem with that...

COSBY:  David, go ahead.

FEIGE:  Yes, there‘s a problem with that.  Yes, they‘re looking for Molineau evidence.  They‘re looking for other crimes that are similar to this one, but they haven‘t established this one yet.  That‘s the problem.  It‘s all reverse engineering.

COSBY:  You know, Shelley, do you still believe that an indictment‘s coming?  It seems, you know, even from what Kevin was saying—it seems that that‘s going to come in a few days, for sure, right?

ALBERT:  It looks that way.  It looks like they‘re going to indict.  Now, there‘s something that‘s important that we have to remember, too, is that they don‘t have to put every single piece of evidence in the grand jury.  After they indict, what they can do is still continue to investigate this case and get more and more fibers and get more hair and come back with more blood evidence.  They don‘t have to put everything in, they just to have to put enough in to meet that lower standard of proof that we have in the grand jury in order to return the indictment.

COSBY:  You know, David, enough to indict, you think, still?

FEIGE:  You know, I don‘t—I‘m not sure.  I am very, very skeptical about this entire case.  You know, they haven‘t even made an arrest yet.  It‘s important to note—it‘s important to note—yes, can they go to the grand jury?  Sure.  But it seems to me that what they‘ve done throughout this entire case is presumed guilt and then just lined their ducks up in a row, trying to get what they‘re eventually looking for, which is that indictment.

ALBERT:  All right, just so we‘re clear, they don‘t have to make an arrest before they can indict...

FEIGE:  That‘s right.

ALBERT:  ... and you know that.

FEIGE:  No, that‘s right.

ALBERT:  They can indict on the evidence they have.  That‘s number one.  And number two, we have DNA evidence linked to the wrist bound on her arm.  How is he going...

COSBY:  That‘s the strongest piece.

ALBERT:  ... to explain that...

COSBY:  Don‘t you think that...

ALBERT:  ... away?

COSBY:  Don‘t you think that‘s the strongest piece, Shelley?

ALBERT:  I absolutely do.  I think that‘s almost impossible for him to explain away.  There‘s really no innocent explanation for how his DNA blood evidence ended up on the wrist bounds against this poor dead girl in the park.  It doesn‘t—there‘s no innocent way that could have happened.

COSBY:  You know, David—David, play—let‘s play devil‘s advocate...

FEIGE:  Sure.

COSBY:  ... because I‘ve got to keep going back, and even Kevin was talking about this—the bar.  There‘s still something fishy there, and I can‘t quite get my hands around it.  This guy doesn‘t come forward.  We just heard from Kevin tonight something that I‘ve been wondering, did he maybe say, Guys, please don‘t tell everybody you had a parolee on board?  According to what Kevin‘s saying, his client didn‘t say that.  So what would be the reason that they wouldn‘t come forward with that information?  Is there something maybe more there?

FEIGE:  I don‘t know.  The entire thing—the entire thing is fishing.  The entire investigation is fishy, as far as I‘m concerned.  And look, you know what?  I want to get back to that arrest thing.  You‘re right, they don‘t have to.  And why would they?  They already engineered him, putting him in jail on a parole hold.  I mean, look, the guy was working.  Do you think he wasn‘t going back to work the next night?  This was a situation in which not only did they rush to judgment, they made their decision, and now they‘re trying to back and fill their way into an indictment.

COSBY:  So then what do you...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  You know, the back story is obviously they got Kevin, who‘s got now this new investigative team.  What would you be looking for, Dave, if you were working on this case?

FEIGE:  Well, Kevin‘s completely right, by the way.  It‘s very, very hard, as the defense.  The reason the burden of proof is the way it is, is they don‘t have—they‘re not going to give him that stuff.  He‘s playing with, you know, a single card against somebody with an entire deck.  Now, the prosecution has, you know, the 30,000 police officers and all the vast resources, and—but you know, it‘s not—that‘s why it‘s not appropriate to say to the defense, Well, prove the guy is innocent.  You can‘t do that.

COSBY:  Shelley, can he get a fair trial?  And is it possible maybe someone else is involved?

ALBERT:  Well, we know that somebody else was involved, or at least we suspect, because the DNA evidence is coming back consistent with there being somebody else involved.  There was separate DNA that was found under her fingernails.

FEIGE:  Right.

ALBERT:  There was the sperm...

FEIGE:  And the semen.

ALBERT:  ... the semen that was found, rather, on the blanket.  But you know, can he get a fair trial?  I mean, that remains to be seen.  Right now, the whole world is out there has already convicted the guy.  And that‘s part of the problem that we have when we try people in the media and when you have these high-profile cases.  I do agree with you there.  However, you know, we have judges that will take control once this case gets past the indictment phase, I‘m sure a judge is probably going to put a lid on all this and is going to seal the evidence so that a lot of this stuff is going to be able to be turned over to Kevin first instead of going to the media first, where we have, you know, maybe a hundred police officers, and everybody‘s got loose lips and talking to people.

COSBY:  And probably 200 or 300 police officer and a lot of loose lips.  Guys, thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

ALBERT:  Thank you.

FEIGE:  You‘re welcome.

COSBY:  Thank you, all.  And Kevin, thank you very much for being with us.  We appreciate it.  We‘re going to continue to stay on this story, as we wait for word on the grand jury‘s decision, which could come any day.  We‘re hearing end of this week, or maybe early next week.  And if you have any information at all about this case, saw something interesting at the bar, whatever it is, please call authorities, call Crimestoppers.  You see the number there, 1-800 -- 577-TIPS.  Again, 1-800-577-TIPS.

And still ahead, everybody: Is there a new serial killer stalking the beaches in one of America‘s hottest spring break destinations?  We‘ll tell you where and who this killer is preying on.  And next: An autopsy ruled that these security guards did not cause the death of the teen that they were caught on tape beating.  But that may have all just changed.  Some new details coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  On to another story.  Tonight, a major turn of events in the fatal boot camp beating of a Florida teenager, which was all caught on tape.  Prosecutors now say 14-year-old Martin Lee Anderson‘s death does not appear to be from natural causes, contradicting an earlier autopsy.  And tonight, the teen‘s family is demanding justice. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GINA JONES, MOTHER OF MARTIN ANDERSON:  This is a cover-up.  It‘s a cover-up, and it‘s time for the guards and the nurse to be charged with killing my baby for no reason at all. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And joining us with the very latest is Samara Sodos with the NBC affiliate WFLA in Tampa. 

Sam, what does this second autopsy, this new autopsy show? 

SAMARA SODOS, WFLA-TV CORRESPONDENT:  Well, Rita, there‘s no official cause of death right now, but the chief medical examiner here in Tampa and a renowned forensic expert which was hired by the family believe that the second autopsy clearly showed that Martin Anderson did not die from natural causes or any kind of blood disorder, which had been identified as the sickle-cell trait. 

In fact, this forensic expert that the family hired, Dr. Michael Baden, he believes that the cause of death is what we all see on this surveillance videotape, is the beating that this 14-year-old boy underwent at the boot camp in January earlier this year. 

COSBY:  And, Sam, as we‘re looking at the pictures, why were they beating him?  What was the reason that they said for why they were beating him to begin with? 

SODOS:  Well, at this point, we don‘t know the answer to that question.  Martin Anderson‘s mother has said that she feels it‘s because her son had long hair.  But at this point, we have no idea why this beating took place at all.  All we know is that the boy collapsed prior to this beating, and that‘s all the information we have on it right now. 

COSBY:  Is it likely that anybody could be charged, as we‘re looking at this, you know, some of security guards there at the boot camp?  Is there any word that any charges could be coming? 

SODOS:  Well, that‘s the whole point of this special investigation that Governor Bush ordered a few weeks ago.  The special prosecutor in this case, which is Mark Ober, who is the state attorney in Tampa, he will be looking at everything, from the guards to the nurse you see standing there, as well, to any boot camp administrators to even perhaps the first medical examiner who performed the autopsy.  They‘re looking to see if, perhaps, there was a cover-up here, but that they will be investigating that, certainly, in the months to come. 

COSBY:  And, you know, why was this second autopsy done?  Was there a sense the first one was inaccurate, there was a cover-up? 

SODOS:  Well, there was such an outrage after this videotape was released, and it was released at about the same time as the results from the first autopsy came out.  So the family was very upset about it.  Then civil rights leaders in this state were very, very disturbed by what they saw. 

And lawmakers were upset.  And then Governor Bush ordered this special investigation, wanting an independent investigation, which is why it ended up in a different county and why it ended up here in Tampa. 

COSBY:  All right, Sam, keep us posted. 

And we‘re joined now by Benjamin Crump.  He‘s the attorney for Martin Anderson‘s family.  And also Daniel Spitz, Jr., is a former associate medical examiner of Hillsborough County, Florida, where all of this happened. 

Benjamin, first of all, how is the family reacting to this news that now it appears, you know, it wasn‘t natural causes? 

BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR MARTIN ANDERSON‘S FAMILY:  Well, Rita, they are somewhat relieved, but Ms. Gina Jones and Robert Anderson have stated all along that their son died as a result of this abuse and torture that he suffered at the hands of these guards at the boot camp.  So it‘s what everybody in America knew, that this child did not die of natural causes. 

COSBY:  And, you know, Benjamin, I‘ve got to ask you, because, you know, we just heard from Sam that—is it true the family was told or suspects that it was because their son had long hair, that that‘s why he was being beaten?  Because we‘re hearing, what, he collapsed, that he was not feeling well?

CRUMP:  Yes, ma‘am.  The other children who were in the boot camp witnessed Martin Lee Anderson murdered on that boot camp field, and they... 

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  But what was the reason they said that they were beating him?  What was the reason they were even claiming to be beating him to begin with?  People are going, “Why were you hitting this kid?”

CRUMP:  You know, that‘s the thing, Rita.  They claim that he was being uncooperative.  But when you watch that videotape and you look at it with your own eyes, you see that he was not being uncooperative; he was unresponsive. 

He was literally falling in and out of consciousness.  And these grown men continued to knee him, and kick him, and slam him to the ground.  You wouldn‘t treat a dog this bad, and this was a human being.  And you say, “My god, the last 40 minutes of this child‘s life, what were these men thinking?”

COSBY:  You know, and Benjamin, the first thing I thought and my producer, also, Neil O‘Brien (ph), we were looking at it, if we can go back, there‘s—at some point, you see this woman in white.  And it‘s, what, a nurse?  There she is.  You know, what is this nurse doing, standing by, watching this whole thing, not doing anything?  Who is this woman in the white?  This is amazing. 

CRUMP:  Rita, she‘s the nurse at the boot camp facility.  And we have gotten more calls about her than any of the guards.  Besides the sickle-cell trait issue, that has been the number-one issue.  This medical official just stood idly by and let this child die while these brutes continued to torture him. 

COSBY:  Yes, she‘s not doing anything.  And I‘ll tell you, we were just surprised when we saw that, too, Benjamin.

You know, Daniel, I want to play a quote.  This is from Dr. Michael Baden.  He is the noted forensic expert, probably one of the best in the country.  And he was the guy who the family hired to do this—you know, watch over this second autopsy.  This is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MICHAEL BADEN, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST:  What you see on the tape is really what happened.  How to interpret it, how many blows there were, how much asphyxia there was, how many other aspects there may have been to the takedown, what‘s important is that kind of takedown, that kind of boot camp interaction has to be carefully looked at.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, and Dr. Baden further says, basically, he believes the beating is what killed the kid.  Do you believe his findings are credible? 

DANIEL SPITZ, JR., FORMER HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY MEDICAL EXAMINER:  Well, when you look at the initial autopsy results, you see that there are a variety of injuries that this child sustained.  And those injuries are a direct result of the altercation that occurred at the boot camp; furthermore, when you looked at the altercation and the injuries, you realize that his death was a direct result of all of that. 

COSBY:  So you believe firmly that the beating was the reason he died? 

SPITZ:  Yes, I believe the beating caused a variety of injuries, and that set in motion the sequence of events which ultimately culminated in his death. 

COSBY:  I want to show—this is a quote from Dr. Charles Siebert.  He conducted the first autopsy.  He said, quote, “Obviously, there was some interaction between him and the deputies.  However, there was nothing to cause any injury or trauma to his body that was contributing cause of death.”

You know, this is first, you know, guy who did the first autopsy.  What happened here?  Did he make a mistake?  Was is it a cover-up?  What happened?

SPITZ:  Well, when you look at injuries and look at different autopsy findings, you have to determine whether they are, in fact, truly injuries or whether they could be the result of some type of natural process. 

And I think there was just an oversight; there was not a correlation of what was really seen on that video with the autopsy findings.  And there was just a misunderstanding and a misinterpretation of how sickle-cell trait affects the body.  It just doesn‘t cause the kinds of things that are depicted in this first autopsy report. 

COSBY:  And, again, now you and Dr. Baden seem to agree with the second autopsy.  You know, Benjamin, what does the family want to see happen here?  Do they want to see charges?  Do they want to see this move forward? 

CRUMP:  Well, absolutely, Rita.  If you had your child murdered in this way, wouldn‘t you want justice?  And the real issue comes down to this here:  Are the police above the law?  Are they going to get away with this? 

COSBY:  Well, we will continue to follow this case and also try to get some more positions from the other side, as well.  Both of you, thank you very much. 

And still ahead, everybody, is there a new serial killer stalking a major spring break destination?  Find out where cops are on the hunt for a dangerous predator. 

And later, find out why a man who was trying to cheat the traffic system instead found himself serving a sentence next to a busy road.  That‘s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  ... I got all different kind of speeches before I came down here, but they‘re like, “And there‘s a serial killer.”

(END VIDEO CLIP)  

COSBY:  Well, investigators in Daytona Beach, Florida, say they have a serial killer on the loose, all this as thousands of people, mainly college students, pour into town for spring break, which is happening right now. 

Three women have been found dead in various parts of the Daytona area since September.  So far, the killer is averaging one victim a month, and police are working feverishly to catch this dangerous criminal. 

Joining us for the very latest is reporter Lyda Longa with the “Daytona Beach News-Journal” and also criminal profiler Pat Brown. 

Lyda, let me start with you.  How worried are people in Daytona Beach? 

This is concerning. 

LYDA LONGA, “DAYTONA BEACH NEWS-JOURNAL”:  Well, Rita, a couple of weeks ago, members of the Guardian Angels of Florida came up to Daytona Beach to help police patrol the streets.  And they said that they had been interviewing several women on the street, and a lot of women seem to be very concerned.  The Guardian Angels were passing out flyers and warning women to stay, you know, clear of strangers, not get into, you know, strange people‘s cars.  And they said a lot of women seemed like they were afraid. 

COSBY:  You know, Lyda, the first murder took place, what, it was in December.  When did police realize that they had a serial killer on their hands?  Why did they wait?

LONGA:  Well, not until last week, because they had to wait for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to actually do a—you know, gather up all of the evidence and help the police study the evidence.  They went to the crime scene.  The Florida Department of Law Enforcement has a lot more resources, so they actually did a lot of studying. 

And finally last week—I believe it was last Friday—they did tell the police that they did believe they had a serial killer on their hands. 

COSBY:  You know, Pat, let me show some of the similarities between these victims.  All the victims, as you can see, they‘re women.  They all died of gunshot wounds to the head.  They were all homeless and worked as prostitutes, and they all got into the killer‘s car willingly.  What does it say to you, first, Pat, you know, the fact that they‘re all women? 

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER:  Well, these are—what he‘s going to be able to get into his car are perhaps part of his fantasy.  He wants easy targets. 

COSBY:  Do you believe it‘s definitely a guy?  Do you believe it‘s definitely a man?

BROWN:  Oh, absolutely.  And I think that, you know, people look at women—why would they get into a car with a guy like this?  When you‘re homeless, and you‘re doing drugs, and you‘re involved in prostitution, pretty much, if the guy‘s not swinging an axe at the time, you‘ll get in the car with him. 

So some serial killers pick these women not because they hate these women, but because they‘re so easy that they don‘t have the worry about the difficulties of trying to kidnap somebody.  And they can get away with it more easily because not as many people care that these women are murdered and it doesn‘t really make the news until enough of them get killed, that you can actually put the serial killer label out there.

COSBY:  Which is very sad, of course, you know.  What type of person would do this?  Pat, you know, and just looking at the profile of what we‘re seeing, we know that there was a profiler down there who was saying basically the same thing, sort of easy target.  That‘s why going after these people, maybe these women are, quote, “substitute victims,” was what one of the profilers down there was saying. 

BROWN:  Well, they sometimes use that as an example as an idea, but I really don‘t think that the serial killer substitute women for his girlfriend that he hates or his mother that he hates.  Serial killers simply hate everybody; they hate society, and they want easy victims. 

And what‘s an easier victim than a smaller woman that you can easily grab and control?  So that‘s why women are so often targets, more so than men. 

And what‘s really worrisome about this, which people have to be aware of, is this guy could be moving from this community—and I‘m not saying it‘s not a terrible thing he‘s killed these women—but he may be moving from this community to another community of women, as he gets stronger and more confident in what he can do. 

He might want to go for the higher trophy of society.  And that‘s why girls that are out there, these college girls that are running out, and drinking, and moving around freely at night, better be on guard, because this guy could move from one community to the other. 

COSBY:  You know, any idea, Lyda, like who this could be, Lyda?  I mean, is there a sense—you know, it is concerning.  You got spring break going on there.  I just came back from a flight from Mexico City.  It was packed with spring-breakers.  So, you know, lots of young kids down there.  The National Cheerleading Championships I understand is coming up next month.

Is there a sense at all of who this guy could be?  Is there any clue?

LONGA:  Not really, Rita.  What the police have told us so far is that they do believe he is targeting a certain kind of woman.  Like Pat was saying just a few minutes ago, he is going to be, you know, profiling women or going after women that are vulnerable, women whose trust he can gain quickly.  Right now, they‘re just saying that he‘s probably targeting women who, as the police say, live a high-risk lifestyle. 

COSBY:  And, Pat, real quick, you think this guy‘s going to be caught and how? 

BROWN:  Well, it‘s very hard to catch these men, unless they make some stupid mistake.  I think the police need to go to the community and release as much information as possible so that somebody can identify them, somebody that might actually know who this guy is and recognize his habits and where he might have been trolling for these women, and say, “Hey, that‘s the guy,” and call that tip in. 

COSBY:  Absolutely.  Whatever they know, they should absolutely call authorities. 

Both of you, thank you.  I hope this case is resolved soon. 

And, everybody, there‘s a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight.  Let‘s check in, if we could, with Joe Scarborough for a preview of what‘s coming up in just a few minutes from now. 

Joe, what do you have? 

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Hey, thanks so much, Rita.

We are following up on the amazing story out of Columbus, Ohio.  That judge who, of course, as we‘ve been reporting, has allowed a child rapist to walk free with no jail time.  Now more information coming out about this judge, who himself has allegedly been arrested eight times under suspicion of being drunk while driving. 

Now a heart-breaking story out of Columbus tonight, another story about how he let a drunk driver go free and, because he did, two young people were killed in an accident involving alcohol.  We‘re going to be talking about that. 

We‘re going to be talking about just runaway liberal judges and what Americans can do to start fighting back.  That and a lot more, straight ahead on “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.”

COSBY:  And, Joe, didn‘t that guy have drunk driving offenses of his own, the judge? 

SCARBOROUGH:  He did.  Again, eight DUI arrests, Rita.  And, again, this guy claimed that the child molester had a disease just like him, and that‘s why this guy who raped a 5-year-old kid was allowed to walk without jail time.  It‘s a disgrace, Rita.  This judge needs to be impeached. 

COSBY:  Absolutely.  It‘s shameful.  Joe, we‘ll be watching tonight. 

Thank you very much. 

And still ahead, everybody, find out what one driver who was in a real hurry did to earn a very bizarre form of punishment.  We‘re going to have him and his little visitor there with him, coming up.  You can see them live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, when you‘re stuck in that morning traffic jam tomorrow, you better be able to think about my next guest.  This is an interesting one.  Greg Pringle made this dummy and put it in the passenger seat of his car, thinking he could bypass traffic and travel in the HOV, or the high-occupancy vehicle lane. 

As many of you know, that lane is only to be used by cars holding two or more passengers, human passengers, that is.  When cops saw a woman with curious makeup and a hanger hanging out of her shirt, they pulled Greg Pringle over immediately and fined him $100. 

But the punishment doesn‘t stop there.  Pringle is also being forced to stand on a highway holding a sign that says—what else—“HOV Lane: 

Not for Dummies.”  There he is. 

And joining me now live is Greg Pringle and his dummy, which he affectionately named Tillie.  What possessed you to make Tillie and do this, Greg? 

GREG PRINGLE, CAUGHT CHEATING IN HOV LANE:  Well, what possessed me the most was just the frustration of seeing a lot of single people in the HOV lanes as I was sitting in the regular traffic.  I thought that, if I was driving along at 60 miles an hour, the police would be too busy stopping the single people and wouldn‘t pay any attention to me. 

COSBY:  Well, you were wrong, huh?  First of all, how did you make Tillie?  And how long did it take you to make her? 

PRINGLE:  Well, I shopped around.  And price—I didn‘t want to do anything too expensive, because I didn‘t know how long I would be doing it.  I went to a beauty supply store, and picked up a cheap Styrofoam head, and painted it up, as you can see, and just started driving.  Tillie evolved with the seasons, and I thought I could get away with it for a while. 

COSBY:  And how long were you getting away with it for? 

PRINGLE:  A year. 

COSBY:  Oh, for a year? 

PRINGLE:  About a year, yes. 

COSBY:  You were driving with Tillie for a year?

PRINGLE:  Yes, yes, I was getting quite confident when Officer Waters pulled me over. 

COSBY:  All right, so Officer Waters pulls you over.  What does he say when he comes up to the car? 

PRINGLE:  Well, he said he was going to have to confiscate Tillie, and I said OK.  I couldn‘t do too much about it.  I wasn‘t going to argue with him.  I was guilty; I didn‘t plead innocent.  It was just a scam for me to make it to work quicker. 

COSBY:  Well, we‘re going to find out what your punishment is after the break.  Stick with us, Greg.  And also Tillie, please.  We‘re going to be with you right after the break.  Stay with us, everybody.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And we continue now with Greg Pringle and also his dummy, Tillie, which he made quickly and put in the HOV lane, trying to look like somebody else was sitting in the seat so he could actually go in that HOV, high-vehicle lane, and not be stopped by authorities, so he could speed through. 

You were doing it for a year, you were saying, right, Greg?  Finally you got caught.  Officer Waters comes over, right? 

PRINGLE:  Right. 

COSBY:  You get fined.  But you had to do some unusual punishment. 

Tell us what you had to do.

PRINGLE:  Yes, I did.  Well, actually, I had a choice of punishments.  I could have done 24 hours of mundane community service or I could have done four hours community service standing on the highway with my court-ordered sign, “HOV Lane is not for Dummies.” 

I chose that, because I got involved with the Alive at 25 Program with Officer Waters.  And I kind of made my sign to promote that, also.  Kill two birds with one stone. 

COSBY:  Real quick, what‘s Alive at 25? 

PRINGLE:  Alive at 25 is a teen driving program that the Westminster police are involved in and the Colorado state patrol.  And it‘s a program where they teach teen drivers safe driving habits and the effects of substance abuse while driving and being distracted. 

COSBY:  Good for you.  You know, you picked this.  Do you think the punishment fits the crime? 

PRINGLE:  Yes, I was a little dumbfounded when the judge first ordered it, because I thought I would just have to just pay a fine and go home.  But when he gave me the option, I thought, “Well, maybe I can make some good come out of this and”...

COSBY:  What‘s been the reaction from other drivers, when they see you with the sign? 

PRINGLE:  I had a lot of honking, thumbs up.  I had a few guys yell at me, yell obscenities.  But, you know, I just dismissed them; it didn‘t matter any more to me.  I figured I could take the humiliation to promote a cause that I believe in. 

COSBY:  Well, very good for you.  And hopefully it teaches others a lesson.  And thank you for coming on here with Tillie.  We appreciate it.  Greg, thank you very much. 

PRINGLE:  You‘re welcome. 

COSBY:  Thank you very much. 

And coming up tomorrow, everybody, we‘re going to bring you exclusive details of a new search for Natalee Holloway.  It‘s involving Aruban officials and also an American search team.  We‘re going to have the very latest, LIVE & DIRECT from Aruba.  That is going to be tomorrow night.  So be sure, everybody, to tune in for that.  We‘re also going to have a lot of other details.

And that does it for me tonight.  I‘m Rita Cosby.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with Joe starts right now—Joe?

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