Guests: Paul Caulfield, Yale Galanter, Lisa Bloom, Joe Tacopina, Linda Allison, John Kelly, Michael Gross, Jake Goldenflame, Lisa Hark, Wade Jessen, Carmen Rasmusen, Tom O‘Neil
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Hey, thanks so much, Rita and welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. No passport required, only common sense allowed.
Tonight, a sex offender assassin blows away two child molesters. Now the ACLU is demanding that sex registries be taken down. And America‘s getting bigger by the minute. Tonight, a computer shows you the fat face of your future. And America, big news: Brooke Shields‘ baby has a playmate. Details on the birth of Tom and Katie‘s baby, straight ahead.
But first tonight, the ax falls at Duke as two star athletes are busted on rape charges adding to an ugly all-star team of accused rapists, wife beaters and murderers who have filled the ranks of college and professional sports teams over the past several years.
O.J.‘s arrest for the killing of his ex-wife may have been the sports world‘s highest profile arrest, but iron Mike Tyson‘s raping of the beauty queen earned him a stay at an iron-bar motel for three years.
NFL superstar Ray Lewis busted for murder but walked after copping a plea. Carolina Panthers‘ star Ray Carruth wasn‘t so lucky. He‘s in jail now for 18 years for trying to kill his wife and unborn child. And wrestling star Steve Austin was accused of using a few too many moves from ringside on his wife. Well, last year‘s Indiana Pacers squad—well they traded in free throws and fast breaks for fist-a-cuffs and fouls with fans in the stands.
Maybe it‘s because the culture of violence so permeates sports that these two young men already stand accused and convicted by a large segment of Duke‘s population, despite possible holes in their accuser‘s story. Will that presumption of guilt spill over to the courtroom? And how will the defense strike back? MSNBC‘s Dan Abrams has been on Duke‘s campus all day, and he has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
DAN ABRAMS, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Joe, the arrest of two of the lacrosse players here in Durham, North Carolina has led both sides to come out swinging—both sides to take a very firm stance on this case. First of all, the D.A., in addition to the indictment and the arrest in this case, he is also saying the following:
(Voice-over): “It had been my hope to be able to charge all three of the assailants at the same time. But the evidence available to me at this moment doesn‘t permit that. Investigation into the identity of the third assailant will continue in the hope that he can also be identified with certainty.”
(On camera): With certainty—this is a D.A. who is saying that the two people who have been arrested have been identified with certainty. Well, this—as the defense team is telling me that they can say, with certainty, that at least one of the two people arrested wasn‘t even at the party, at or around the time the alleged rape occurred. And they‘re saying they‘re going to be able to prove it, in part based on video surveillance at an ATM machine. So they are expressing real confidence that it couldn‘t have happened as the D.A. claims.
And the defense team still expressing some hope that these charges will be dismissed before this case goes to trial. When you listen to the way the D.A. is speaking here, it sure doesn‘t sound like that is going to happen. Sounds like the most likely outcome here is that both sides are going to continue swinging, and that this case is just going to get uglier and uglier. Joe?
SCARBOROUGH: All right, thanks so much, Dan Abrams.
Let‘s go live now to Durham, where tonight police are back in a Duke dorm. MSNBC‘s Rita Cosby is live outside the courthouse. And Rita, you listen to Dan‘s report and what you‘ve been saying down there. There seem to be so many conflicts. You‘ve got the D.A. that‘s pressing and talking about rape, assault, kidnapping charges. And these defense attorneys aren‘t giving an inch. They‘re saying not only was there no sex the night of the incident, well, one of these suspects wasn‘t even there when the D.A. claims the rape occurred. What‘s going on in Durham?
RITA COSBY, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: You know, there are direct conflicts as you point out. In fact, defense attorneys are also telling me the same information. Not only do they have surveillance information from an ATM, they have an ATM receipt. They also have, I think, a cab driver receipt and a cab driver himself, I‘m told, who is going to come forward and say that I was with this boy at “x” amount of time. All this different information corroborating what they believe shows that that boy couldn‘t have been in the house at the time.
They also say that they might have information to show that the other boy wasn‘t in the house at the time. And putting all of that together—as you can hear a little bit of a train going on here in the background, Joe. It‘s a busy night here in Durham—but putting that all together, they feel that they have a pretty strong case to be able to beat the charges that are being presented right now by the D.A. But as you point out, I‘m going to read a quote from the D.A. This just came out a little bit ago.
He says that the evidence available to him didn‘t allow him to permit him to go after the third person. But he says investigation into the identity of the third assailant will continue in the hope that he can also be identified with certainty. So this D.A. is not giving up.
And in fact, speaking of D.A., the D.A. is probably going to get the DNA back at some point tomorrow. So we can get some details. Remember, the first round was inconclusive, but we‘re being told that now a second round may be coming out as early as tomorrow. So that could maybe sway the case one way or another.
SCARBOROUGH: And Rita, now they‘re going into the Duke dorm room again. Tell us about that side of the story.
COSBY: Yes, just a few hours ago, we heard that suddenly they were going back into the Duke dorm. This is the same area where they went before. They have a search warrant. We haven‘t been able to look at the search warrant. It doesn‘t need to be made public until 24 hours after the search is executed. But we understand it‘s the same area that they went to before. Remember, they sort of surprised everyone, Joe, when they did that search.
We understand that they‘re looking for information, trying to tie not just these two individuals—now which they have charged—but also to try to locate that third suspect that they are looking for. This is, of course—the D.A. is adamant that there‘s another person. And of course, the woman has also said—we‘ve been told that she was able to positively I.D. two individuals. They put up a photo sort of line-up. She pointed out two of them. But incorrectly, we‘re told, pointed out the third one.
So now the D.A. feels like he‘s got to get some physical evidence to corroborate that. And that‘s what they‘re looking for. Maybe in addition to that, maybe in addition to the DNA and also the nurse‘s report, that‘s what he‘s building his case on.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Hey, thanks so much, Rita Cosby. It‘s always great reporting from Durham, North Carolina.
Now let‘s bring in criminal defense attorney Yale Galanter, “COURT TV‘s” Lisa Bloom, and former Manhattan assistant D.A. Paul Caulfield who also coached a top high school lacrosse team and knows a number of players on the Duke lacrosse team.
Let me start with you, Yale. What do you think of the D.A.‘s charges?
YALE GALANTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think the D.A. is going to take a great fall in the next couple of days. The defense lawyers are telling me that they have concrete evidence that this girl picked at least one of the guys absolutely wrongly. They have an ATM receipt. They have witness testimony. They also have...
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second, Yale. This is...
GALANTER: They also have a photograph...
SCARBOROUGH: Explain this Yale. Hold on Yale. I want you to explain for me here, because we‘re going to get to that in a second. But I‘ve heard Dan talking, Rita talking, now you talking. It appears as if these two arrests hinge on this lady I.D.‘ing these two suspects, despite the fact everybody says, that saw her that night, she was under the influence, whether she drugged herself or somebody else drugged her. Is that all the D.A. has? Is there no physical evidence against these two young men?
GALANTER: Well, there‘s certainly no forensic evidence. There‘s no DNA as of this minute that we know of. And the defense lawyers are not expecting anything earth shattering tomorrow when the other DNA report comes back, Joe. So what you have is you have an eyewitness, the complaining witness in this case, who is shown 47 photographs and says, I think these two boys did it and this third one may have been involved. And that‘s what the prosecutor went to this grand jury on.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. So Yale...
GALANTER: But there was no other evidence linking these boys to this crime.
SCARBOROUGH: If this woman‘s testimony is all that they have right now, then obviously her credibility is going to be important. The woman at the center of the Duke rape scandal has a criminal record herself. In 2002, she was charged with DWI, driving with a revoked license, felony speeding to elude arrest, felony assault with a deadly weapon on a government official, and felony larceny of a motor vehicle. Yale, as a defense attorney, do you go after her credibility?
GALANTER: Absolutely. You go after her credibility. And not only in this case, Joe, do you go after her individual credibility, you go after what police officers who saw her immediately after this alleged incident said. The first officer on the scene said she was passed out drunk. She looked fine and she did not need medical attention. That is a major statement from an impartial law enforcement witness who is going to say medically he didn‘t see anything wrong, and she was totally intoxicated.
SCARBOROUGH: Hey, Lisa Bloom?
LISA BLOOM, ANCHOR, COURT TV NEWS: Yes, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: I‘ve never done criminal defense work. Here‘s my problem, OK? It seems to me we‘ve got to figure out how to approach this witness. If she is the only reason these two young men are arrested right now, you got to go back—you never obviously want to put the accused—well, the rape victim on trial.
BLOOM: Well, of course they do.
SCARBOROUGH: The alleged rape victim. But at the same...
BLOOM: Of course they want to put her on trial.
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on a second. But at the same time, her testimony and her credibility has to be at the center of this if this is all they are hanging these rape charges on. Right?
BLOOM: Guess what Joe? The law in the United States protects every woman, every woman from rape, whether she has a criminal history...
SCARBOROUGH: Nobody‘s saying—nobody‘s saying...
BLOOM: ... whether she‘s intoxicated.
SCARBOROUGH: Hey nobody‘s saying...
BLOOM: ... whether she‘s under the influence of drugs.
SCARBOROUGH: Lisa, that‘s not the issue. We‘re talking about the credibility, and also these two young men‘s future.
BLOOM: OK. Let‘s talk about the credibility of one of these young men who was arrested in a gay-bashing incident a few months ago. Now I think that calls into question his credibility engaging in a group attack on somebody who is different than him.
SCARBOROUGH: OK, but an arrest is not based on his credibility.
BLOOM: Well, OK. But he was just, you know...
SCARBOROUGH: The arrests of these young men is based on the credibility of this young woman.
BLOOM: I think any reasonable person would think a gay-bashing incident would affect on his credibility. It was only a few months ago. And by the way, he‘s supposed to do 25 hours of community service for that.
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on Lisa. I‘ve got to stop you. I‘m going to go back to you, Lisa, but hold on a second. I never said a gay-bashing incident would not impact his credibility. All I‘m saying here tonight is two people aren‘t in jail tonight because of his testimony.
BLOOM: They‘re out on bail.
SCARBOROUGH: I‘m asking you how do we approach this woman‘s credibility, when obviously she‘s got a checkered past? She was inebriated or drugged that night, whether the Duke players did it...
BLOOM: And so were all the boys, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: OK, fine. So I‘m just asking...
BLOOM: So let‘s not have a double standard for women.
SCARBOROUGH: ... how do we sift through her testimony.
BLOOM: Let me respond to that. Let‘s not have a double standard for women. Between a third and a half of those lacrosse players...
SCARBOROUGH: Don‘t want to have a double standard for women.
BLOOM: Between a third and a half of those Duke lacrosse players have criminal histories as well, including one of these two defendants. She too has a criminal history, that‘s true. She did the crime, she did the time. That may come in and affect her credibility, although it‘s not a crime of dishonesty. It‘s a crime involving stealing a car. Nobody says that‘s a good thing. But it‘s not a crime of dishonesty, as compared to a crime of attacking a man who is gay is very similar to attacking a woman who‘s African American.
SCARBOROUGH: OK. And what about the fact—And again, Lisa, you know, these Duke players may have drugged her.
BLOOM: That‘s right.
SCARBOROUGH: But that also goes to her ability of I.D.‘ing witnesses or I.D.‘ing the possible suspects.
BLOOM: OK. And here‘s the biggest problem in this case, Joe. The lop-sided leaks from the defense causes everybody in the media to go crazy and want to have this case thrown out. The prosecutor has not been leaking evidence. So all we‘re hearing about is the defense side of the case. And by the way, they talk about photos. We haven‘t seen them. They talk about ATM receipts and so on. We haven‘t seen them.
Believe you me, the good people on this grand jury heard the prosecutor‘s side of the case, admittedly only the prosecutor‘s side, but they came back with those indictments. I think we should all take a deep breath and let the evidence come out in court before we dismiss this woman‘s case.
GALANTER: Lisa, it‘s very telling that the prosecutor went to a grand jury instead of issuing a warrant and giving the defense an opportunity to have an adversary preliminary hearing where her credibility could be challenged and the prosecutor‘s evidence could have been challenged.
BLOOM: Just like he did in many of—now this grand jury heard a lot of different cases.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Let me bring in Paul here.
GALANTER: Why would he go to a grand jury when he‘s got ...
BLOOM: And they came back and ...
SCARBOROUGH: Let me bring in Paul Caulfield. Paul, you‘re a former assistant New York D.A. You know these players. Tell us about them.
PAUL CAULFIELD, FORMER NEW YORK ASSISTANT D.A.: Joe, I can tell you that I‘ve been involved in this sport for 20 years. I can tell you that I‘ve coached some of them. I‘ve coached against some of them. I know the communities that they come from. And I can tell you that without getting into the facts of the case, that these players—Lisa, you‘re right. They do have criminal convictions, but they are public urination, and they are beer in public.
CAULFIELD: It doesn‘t rise to the nature of the current charges facing them. I can tell you, and you saw today one of the fathers came out, he‘s absolutely devastated. Sons are telling their fathers and their mothers that this has not happened. I can tell you what it‘s done to the lacrosse community. It has devastated from the grade school all the way to the pro level, because you know this is a community similar to the way Duke feels about being labeled elitist, Durham County being labeled as a racial powder keg...
BLOOM: Why was the coach told to rein this team in?
CAULFIELD: Pardon me. Hold on a second.
BLOOM: And why didn‘t he do it?
CAULFIELD: Durham County being typecasted as some racial powder keg, when that‘s not true. And that this victim has been labeled as a stripper when that‘s not her identity. That‘s...
BLOOM: But the team‘s already earmarked as a problem.
CAULFIELD: Wait, wait a minute. Let me finish. Let me finish. And that her community has supported her saying, OK, that‘s an unfortunate chosen profession. She‘s a woman. She‘s attending school. She has two kids. And this community that I‘m a part of...
SCARBOROUGH: But Paul, is there a culture of violence in the lacrosse community? Certainly this team has had problems in the past.
CAULFIELD: And you‘re right. And I think that two—a man and woman across the country—no one is going to disagree with the fact that, if anyone is guilty of any crime, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. That‘s not the debate here. And President Broadhead said this about Duke: This is not a Duke-centric issue. This is not a Durham-centric issue. This is having to do with underage drinking, yes, college athletics...
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
CAULFIELD: But it‘s not typecasted or it‘s typecasted unfairly to a very positive sport.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. I‘m sorry. Unfortunately, we‘re going to have to leave it there. I appreciate all of you being with us. We‘ll be right back with the very latest from Aruba.
SCARBOROUGH: New developments out of Aruba as the new 19-year-old suspect in the Natalee Holloway investigation was in court today in Aruba facing charges related to her disappearance and drug dealing. We‘re going to be talking to the attorneys for Natalee‘s family and for prime suspect Joran van der Sloot in just a minute. But first, let‘s go to Aruba and get the very latest on today‘s developments from NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski. Michelle, what do you have?
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Joe. Prosecutors got exactly what they wanted. They, with a judge, actually went to the jail where Geoffrey van Cromvoirt is being held. They presented their evidence against him. And now he‘ll be held there for another eight days.
They also have spelled things out for us. Prosecutors say now this young man is suspected of criminal offenses that may relate to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway as well as criminal offenses related to dealing illegal narcotics. That‘s the first we‘ve heard of that. Although we have been hearing from some other attorneys who do have access to information in this case, including the attorney for Joran van der Sloot, who has long been the key suspect here.
His attorney says that he‘s seen thousands of pages of investigative documents that show that police found a t-shirt they think belonged to van Cromvoirt back in June, that he says also showed—may contain some kind of forensic evidence that may or may not relate to this case. He also said that there‘s documents indicate that police think van Cromvoirt and Natalee Holloway knew each other in the days leading up to her disappearance in May.
Prosecutors aren‘t commenting right now on any of those details. And, by the way, if they want to hold him longer than eight days, they‘re going to have to go back before a judge and present more evidence. Joe?
SCARBOROUGH: Thank you so much, NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski.
And now despite the arrest, Joran van der Sloot remains one of three prime suspects in the case. And I‘m joined now by his attorney, Joe Tacopina. Joe, thanks for being with us tonight. Can you tell us about the forensic evidence that was found on that t-shirt of the suspect?
JOE TACOPINA, ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Not much more than you just heard Michelle say, Joe, I can‘t. I mean, look, obviously I‘m not in their lab. I‘m not in the prosecutor‘s office like, you know, the Holloway family‘s attorney gets invited into. We‘re doing our own investigation. We‘ve spoken to law enforcement sources. What they‘re going to do with that forensic evidence, you know, I don‘t know. How it ties in exactly, I don‘t know. I‘m just talking about what we‘ve heard. I‘m sure of it. And we‘ll see how it unfolds.
SCARBOROUGH: Joe, a lot of you were skeptical of your claim earlier that your client, Joran van der Sloot, did not know this new suspect.
SCARBOROUGH: Is Joran, the father and the family still standing by that claim tonight?
TACOPINA: I‘m still standing by it. They are still standing by it, Joe. This case is unbelievable. You know, it‘s as if people should be grilled that there may be some life, some new direction, maybe some resolution coming for the Holloway family. Yet people who supported the Holloway family seem to be almost distraught that this may be pulling away from Joran. And, you know, I just don‘t for the life of me get it.
I heard John Kelly say this afternoon, the Holloway family attorney, that he doesn‘t doubt that Joran doesn‘t know this individual. Yet people are trying to find some connection. I‘ve seen Fugazi pictures put up on the Internet of people they think is this kid Geoffrey. Joran—let me be clear Joe—Joran does not know this individual, period.
SCARBOROUGH: Do you think this arrest may exonerate your client?
TACOPINA: I think any arrest will exonerate my client. My client is not guilty of harming Natalee, not responsible for her disappearance. You know, they‘ve investigated him for 11 months. They flew in fighter jets from—F-16‘s from Holland. The U.S. FBI got involved. Three countries investigated it. They‘ve only looked at him. There‘s not one piece of evidence pointing to him, Joe. There‘s evidence that exonerates him. I‘m confident no matter where this investigation goes, it doesn‘t land at my client‘s footsteps.
That being said, you know, I hope that they have some answers. And I hope that they get some answers. I hope that they solve this thing. This new Superintendent Dolfi seems to be on the mark as far as putting some life into this investigation, Joe. And quite frankly, if solving it means someone else is charged, you know, clearly I‘m happy for the Holloway family. Dave Holloway seems like a terrific guy who has been through a lot in that family. And, you know, hopefully they‘ll get some answers. And hopefully my client‘s family will stop being berated and living under a cloud of suspicion. People have said the worst things about them. And I hope they‘re ready to stand by their words.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thank you so much, Joe Tacopina—greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. Let‘s bring in now Natalee Holloway‘s aunt, Linda Allison, and the attorney for the family, John Q. Kelly.
Linda, what can you tell us about what the family is being told about this new suspect and possible new arrest in this case?
LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S AUNT: With this information coming forward today, we—I mean, I‘m sorry, on Saturday—about this new arrest, we‘ve been really excited that there shows progress in this investigation. Although we are guarded with this new evidence here, because we don‘t know. And we have been just been on, as we keep referring to, an emotional roller coaster ride, because we get our hopes up so much of the time, and only to find out that evidence didn‘t play out in this investigation and to find out what happened to Natalee.
SCARBOROUGH: You hearing anything about future arrests?
ALLISON: I have heard that there‘s potentially going to bring in two more people to either interview or maybe arrest. And so I‘m anxiously also eagerly waiting for that information as well.
SCARBOROUGH: Any names we‘ve heard of before?
ALLISON: Well, I just have heard rumors today about two potential that I probably not want to discuss at this time, in case that is potentially an arrest. Don‘t want to tip off anyone there to be looking out for that.
SCARBOROUGH: Ok. Hey, John, do you believe that Joe‘s client did not know, does not know Joran van der Sloot—or that Joe‘s client does not know this new suspect?
JOHN Q. KELLY, ATTORNEY FOR NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FAMILY: You know, I have to take Mr. Tacopina and Joran‘s word at face value. If they‘re saying they didn‘t know him and have no relationship with him, I‘ll accept that.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. What about Joe saying yesterday that this may be a watershed moment for this investigation? Do you believe this may be the crack in the case that your clients have been looking for for almost a year now?
KELLY: We hope. I mean, we‘re guardedly, you know, optimistic. We‘re being very cautious in what this all means. I‘ve been told this is not a case breaker in and of itself. I‘ve been told there are not any additional arrests that are imminent right now. But I know the prosecutors are enthusiastic about what they‘ve accomplished so far and are satisfied with the interrogation so far of the suspect.
SCARBOROUGH: And why are they positive about this? Where do they believe this young man‘s testimony will lead them?
KELLY: To the answers as to what happened to Natalee. You know, there are some drug allegations, too, but that really doesn‘t concern us. It‘s getting some answers as to what happened to Natalee and bringing her home ultimately Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: Does it take the trail back to Joran van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers?
KELLY: I don‘t know. Wherever the trail goes as long as it leads to some answers about Natalee‘s disappearance. That‘s the trail we want followed. We are not focused on anybody. This is not a vendetta. This is not a witch hunt. We just look at the evidence and what the evidence has supported up to now. And wherever—if it takes a turn to the right or the left, we‘ll go with it, certainly.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thanks so much John Q. Kelly and Linda Allison. We appreciate you being with us tonight.
When we come back, TomKat special delivery word out of Hollywood tonight is that the tom kitten has arrived. Will TomKat‘s parent skills stack up against the likes of Britney and Brangelina?
Plus, some are saying “American Idol” has too much red state representation. We‘re going to show you just how many idol contestants hail from deep in the heart of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
SCARBOROUGH: We‘ll show you the face of the future and worry. It‘s fat. Take that Whopper out of Junior‘s hands and stay with us. We‘ll give you the story behind the story when we get back in a minute.
But first, here‘s the latest news you and your family need to know.
SCARBOROUGH: I don‘t discriminate against Yankees. Well, why are so many stars from the Deep South?
And the paparazzi foaming at the mouth tonight. Tom and Katie bringing a new baby into the world. We‘ve got the inside scoop for you in a little bit.
Welcome back to “Scarborough Country.” We‘re going to talk about those stories in just minutes.
But first, a vigilante uses Maine sex offender registry to target two sex offenders for death. Police say this man, Steven Marshall, killed two registered sex offenders, before committing suicide on a bus. Maine took their on-line registry off-line while they searched for Marshall, but it‘s back up and running tonight. But the ACLU wants Vermont to take their soon-to-be-expanded list down now.
With me to talk about it, constitutional attorney, Michael Gross; and convicted sex offender Jake Goldenflame. He‘s the author of “Overcoming Sexual Terrorism.”
Michael, let me begin with you. And let me know, why do you think that this one incident would justify taking down sex offender lists that parents all across America depend on to make sure that they and their children are living in safe neighborhoods?
MICHAEL GROSS, ATTORNEY: Well, the incident is an example of why we‘re going in the wrong direction. Joe, there are two types of sex offenders. Those who can‘t help it and those who can. Those who can‘t help it, we don‘t punish people who do something that they can‘t help. But we quarantine them so they don‘t injury others. And they are civilly committed. Not for a term, but until they can behave themselves because they‘ve developed choice. If they never do, they never get out of that commitment.
And those who can help themselves, they go right to jail, fast, serve their time, and then come out, having been punished.
Neither type has to be registered. Those who are a danger because they cannot control themselves don‘t have to be registered because they‘re put away civilly. And those who can control themselves have been punished, they have completed their punishment and they‘re back in society. And they should be welcome.
SCARBOROUGH: But Michael, there are so many registered sex offenders
Michael, there are so many registered sex offenders that go out and abuse young children again. Are you against parents all across America knowing whether there are sex offenders living next door to them?
GROSS: Yes, what you‘re talking about is people who have in the past committed an offense. And what I‘m trying to do is to distinguish between those who will commit again and those who will not.
SCARBOROUGH: But we don‘t know that.
GROSS: Yes. Because we‘re not examining these people, because we‘re not learning anything about human nature. Don‘t always focus on punishment. Focus on a scientific, understanding of why we behave the way we do.
SCARBOROUGH: But Michael, this is not punishment. This is protecting children by giving information out there. Until we figure out how to crack that code that you‘re talking about, isn‘t it safer if you‘re a parent and if I‘m a parent to know whether we have registered sex offenders living next door to us?
GROSS: Joe, what is safe is to really, seriously quarantine, isolate those people who recommit?
SCARBOROUGH: Lock them up.
GROSS: And those people who will not recommit, they cannot be shunned. They cannot be ostracized. Or for that reason, they will repent. They have to be brought back.
SCARBOROUGH: But Michael, we don‘t know if they‘re going to recommit until they do it. Until a young girl or boy are raped or killed.
GROSS: I‘m sorry. I‘m not making my point, Joe.
When you put an X on their forehead, which is what you‘re doing, you‘re putting an A on them just as they did with the adulterous. You are labeling and isolating them. And by doing that, you alienate them so that you will increase the likelihood that they will commit another crime because they‘re out of society.
Now, when they‘re brought back in and integrated and given a normal community life, they don‘t recommit. Those who can‘t help themselves, lock them up civilly, don‘t punish them.
We don‘t punish people because they infect others with a disease. But we do isolate them so that they don‘t hurt others without being able to stop themselves.
SCARBOROUGH: Jake Goldenflame, let me bring you in here. As a convicted sex offender, do you think it is wise to take these sex registries off of the Internet?
JAKE GOLDENFLAME, AUTHOR & CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: Well, let‘s put it this way, I don‘t know that it‘s a question of wisdom or not. The community is going to have to ask itself if it still wants to have these registries up if we continue to have vigilante occurrences like this.
Because, Joe, as you know, when a person takes a gun as a vigilante, or anything else, and he fires that gun, once the bullet leaves the barrel, it can go anywhere. And if we continue to have vigilante incidents and innocent people get hurt, then the community might want to ask itself if we shouldn‘t go ahead and take these sites down for the protection of the public.
SCARBOROUGH: But Jake, you‘ve said yourself, before, that this is a disease, that the only way that you can protect yourself from molesting little children again is to stay away from little children.
GOLDENFLAME: That‘s right.
SCARBOROUGH: Shouldn‘t the people that live in your neighborhood know that about you?
GOLDENFLAME: Well, I think so. And the reason I came to embrace Megan‘s Law when it was on the books is I was already telling people about my past as part of my strategy for having honest friendships with people. That‘s how I got involved in this whole thing.
GROSS: Joe, can you avoid committing another sex offense?
GOLDENFLAME: Can I?
GROSS: Yes. You personally.
GOLDENFLAME: Yes. Yes, I can.
GROSS: OK, so you have been cured.
GOLDENFLAME: I wouldn‘t use the word cure, but I‘ll say I‘ve been taught how to control my impulses.
GROSS: Well, what is a disease is when you cannot control your impulse. Those people need to be isolated, not registered. That‘s not enough. Isolate them. But if you can control your impulse, you need to be integrated into society, not ostracized.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. But, Michael, as Jake has said before, that the only way that he can stop himself from molesting children is to stay away from them.
GOLDENFLAME: That‘s right.
SCARBOROUGH: So, I mean, under your argument, you‘d think that possibly he should be sent to jail for life.
GROSS: It‘s not sent to jail. It is a civil commitment. If he had had, as we used to think of lepers or people with smallpox, anybody that‘s doing anything, innocently, they can‘t help it, that injures others must be separated from others.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
GROSS: But those who are not injuring others must be integrated into the community, made a part of the community. That‘s how you learn to stop avoiding them.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Michael Gross, we‘re going to have to leave it there. I disagree.
Jake Goldenflame, thank you for being with us.
And now, if you knew how your kids would turn out, would you change the way they‘re raising them today? Well, that‘s the premise of a new TLC show, “Honey we‘re Killing the Kids.”
The show uses computer imaging to age kids to show their parents an ugly truth. The show‘s creators say they want to help families make better lifestyle choices.
And with me now, the host of “Honey we‘re Killing the Kids,” Dr. Lisa Hark.
LISA HARK, PHYSICIAN & SHOW HOST: Hi, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: Why are you showing parents the ugly truth of how fat their kids are going to be when they‘re my age?
HARK: Well, I think it helps them to think about their appearance. Because when you tell families their kids are going to have diseases when they get older, it doesn‘t really do anything.
But when you show them how their child will look when they‘ll be overweight—they‘ll have bad skin, rotten teeth—it really makes an impact. It helps to motivate them.
SCARBOROUGH: How serious is this problem?
HARK: Major, major problem. Obesity rates have tripled in children in the past 20 or 30 years. And what we‘re doing now is not working. So I‘m hoping this approach is really going to make an impact in America.
SCARBOROUGH: Why aren‘t parents being warned about the dangers of their children‘s lifestyle?
HARK: I think they are. Parents know that they‘re feeding their kids the wrong thing but they don‘t say any to their kid.
HARK: Well, because it‘s hard to be strong as a parent. Parents are working; they feel guilty. And children, of course, they‘re watching on television all of these commercials. They go with their parents to the supermarket. And there‘s a tantrum in every aisle, begging, begging, begging mommy or daddy for junk food, for cookies, for candies.
Also, mom or dad says let‘s go outside and play. And the child says no; I don‘t feel like it. I‘d rather sit and watch television or play video games. Instead of saying you have to go out, turn off the TV and get outside, let‘s go outside and play, and mom or dad goes with them.
SCARBOROUGH: So what‘s the impact of these videos where you morph these cute kids into fat, ugly middle aged adults? Does it scare the hell out of the parents?
HARK: Again, it motivates them. We‘re using these images to motivate them. When I show them these images, mom and dad say, oh, my God, I never thought about how they would look. I‘m ready. I can‘t wait to get started. So it‘s been a very positive effect on the family.
SCARBOROUGH: Final question. Give us—I‘m a parent of three, give me some guidance on how I need to feed my children, force my kids to exercise, get them out from the TV and video games. What is the key?
HARK: I think the key is introducing healthy foods at a time of the day when they‘re most likely to eat it, when they‘re hungry, in the morning, as well as in the afternoon when they get home from school. My kids love fruits and vegetables in the afternoon.
Absolutely, limit television and video games, combination, to less than two hours a day, total. Make sure your kids get outside or anywhere, sports, playing. Up to one hour a day is the recommendation for children to do that.
And you have to stop buying the candy, cakes, cookies, donuts. And absolutely do not give your kids soda. And limit those sweetened beverages to less than one a day. Children should be drinking water, milk.
The show airs Monday nights at 9:00 and it‘s a great show.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thank you so much, Dr. Lisa Hark. Greatly appreciated.
HARK: Thank you.
SCARBOROUGH: And, of course, I‘m joined now by Tucker Carlson. He‘s the host of “The Situation with Tucker Carlson.”
Tucker, you look at that story and you look at this show and you see exploding diabetes rates across America. It‘s no wonder that we‘re having an explosion, not only of obesity, but diabetes and all the problems that go with that.
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION”: I agree with that. But I have to say water, milk? No. Jolt Cola, that‘s the answer.
SCARBOROUGH: OK, doctor.
CARLSON: Jolt Cola for your kids.
SCARBOROUGH: OK, Tucker, what‘s the situation tonight, buddy?
CARLSON: Here‘s the question.
SCARBOROUGH: How many kids do you have, Tucker?
CARLSON: I have four children.
SCARBOROUGH: Four children. So nothing but Mountain Dew and Jolt around the Carlson household.
All right. What have you got tonight?
CARLSON: Here‘s the question. Two students from Duke indicted. We know their names, their ages, their parent‘s names, where they‘re from. Why don‘t we know the name of the woman who accused them? Nobody‘s been proved innocent or guilty here. Why the double standard? We‘ll debate that tonight.
Plus, the State Department may soon instruct all Americans on how to stop being ugly Americans. Bottom line? Pretend you‘re not American. Should our government be backing this? We‘ll debate it.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Tucker. You know, going back down to Duke again, I mean, here you have—it looks like this DA has arrested these two young men based solely on the testimony of this one woman, who has a very long rap sheet, and also who was drugged the night of the incident, whether she ingested the drugs herself or a Duke player gave it to her. It certainly seems pretty sketchy, the arrest, doesn‘t it?
CARLSON: I‘m keeping an open mind. I don‘t want to judge any of this, but I do think it‘s possible these guys are getting a raw deal. I don‘t know the answer, but I think we should all keep an open mind. And a lot of us aren‘t keeping an open mind. And I think that‘s wrong.
SCARBOROUGH: I think you‘re right. All right, Tucker Carlson, thanks so much.
CARLSON: Thanks, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: And make sure you tune in to “The Situation,” coming up straight ahead at 11:00.
And next, here, has “American Idol” sold its soul to the confederacy? Some are saying the “Idol” is too south heavy. We‘ll debate that, coming up.
And, first, it was driving on the wrong side of the road, and now this. Find out what those crazy Brits are up to now.
SCARBOROUGH: The runaway hit, “American Idol,” features aspiring singers from all over the Country, right? Well, it turns out that most of the contestants hail from the states that were once part of the confederacy. From Texas to Georgia, it looks like the south is the only region turning out talent on “American Idol.”
Now, check this out. The first winner was Kelly Clarkson from Fort Worth, Texas.
Then there was Ruben Studdard, the pride of Birmingham, Alabama.
And who can forget the second season‘s runner-up, Clay Akin, another Southern boy.
Then we had Fantasia Barrino from High Pointe, North Carolina, taking honors in season three.
And just last week, Bucky Covington of North Rockingham, North Carolina, bounced from the competition.
So why are so many “American Idol” contestants coming out of Dixie?
With me to talk about it former “Idol” contestant Carmen Rasmusen; and Wade Jessen from Billboard magazine.
Wade, explain it to us. Why is the south rising again on, of all places, “American idol”?
WADE JESSEN, BILLBOARD MAGAZINE: Well, Joe, I could only venture to guess as to why there‘s so many. But any time the American south dominates in anything musically related, particularly in American popular music, it‘s not particularly surprising.
I mean, it‘s where so much of America‘s musical heritage was born and raised. And there‘s an enduring and a persistent value, I think, placed on music in the south, particularly with the working class and southern Protestant evangelicals. It‘s just a great part of the lifestyle here.
And, you know, those kids grow up singing the music in church. They‘re encouraged to sing. Music is something that is encouraged, rewarded and almost praised in a way in people‘s homes.
SCARBOROUGH: I was just going to say, Wade, whether you‘re talking about blues, whether you‘re talking about country, whether you‘re talking about R&B. It all starts in the church, doesn‘t it?
WADE: It really does. Gosh, I mean, if you think back to some of the history of music and southern music, Joe, no one above the Mason Dixon line had heard slave spirituals, for example, until the Fisk Jubilee Singers. from Nashville, Tennessee, took them up north in live performance and on record to fund their schools and keep Fisk University solvent in the late 19th century. So it goes back.
And as much as we would like to think that we live in a homogenous society culturally now, that people‘s lives in the south, as they‘re raised in the south, are not particularly different from people in other parts of the country. There are still some of those enduring values and enduring cultural phenomenons. And music is one of them.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. No doubt about it.
And Carmen, did you see this while you were competing in “American Idol”?
CARMEN RASMUSEN, FORMER “AMERICAN IDOL” CONTESTANT: I did. There were a lot of people on my season from the south. And you have to think, ok, is it because of the Bible Belt; Mike Wade was saying, the church and singing in choir since they were little, music just being such a huge part of their lives?
Or is it because they simply were the best singers they found throughout the country? And I have to think it was because they were simply great singers.
I don‘t know that you can dice this up and dissect this enough and say, OK, because they‘re from the south and only the southern people can sing. Because I think there are great singers all around the country. I think it‘s a coincidence. And I think they more look for character and talent. And it just so happens that the last couple of seasons that there have been a lot of people from the south.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, as the selection goes, this is a democratic process. And, yet, Wade, it seems that the Deep South is winning. There are a lot more voters in New York City than Yazoo City, Mississippi. So, again, it seems that would be stacked against the south. And, yet, they‘re still winning.
JESSEN: Yes, that‘s a hollow argument. Because there are more households using television in New York and LA than there are in Nashville, Memphis, Birmingham, Charlotte, in any of those places.
And, Joe, I think one of the other things that‘s important to point out here is, in a competitive situation like “American Idol,” those are the kind of songs, those are the styles of songs that I think lend themselves more to those competitive arenas. And naturally, I think you‘re going to have some contestants who can deliver those kind of songs in a competitive arena.
RASMUSEN: I agree.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thank you, Carmen.
Thank you, Wade.
SCARBOROUGH: Greatly appreciate it.
RASMUSEN: Thank you.
SCARBOROUGH: And coming up straight ahead, must-see S.C. We‘ll show you what they consider NASCAR across the pond.
And breaking news. The Tom kitten has arrived. The Tom kitten has arrived. We‘ve got all the breaking news.
SCARBOROUGH: Big news out of Hollywood tonight. Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, parents of a baby girl. Tom Kitten named Suri, rhymes with furry.
With me now with all the details of the Tom kitten, Tom O‘Neil from In Touch weekly.
Tom, take us behind the scenes. What happened?
TOM O‘NEIL, IN TOUCH WEEKLY: Well, it‘s time for America to start jumping on your sofas. This baby is here at last. Probably the most touted baby in Hollywood history, ever since Little Ricky was born to Desi and Lucy, I guess.
The child was born earlier today, seven pounds, seven ounces. She seemed to be healthy and happy. And the birth of Tom kitten is an invitation for us media pundits to get catty.
But before we do a little bit of that, let‘s wish mom and dad the best of everything, and this child, too. Because this is just what these two need to turn everything around. These two people who have the worst PR slide that never seems to stop, and maybe now. A birth means a rebirth.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Well, let us hope so.
Speaking of catty, Keith Olbermann, earlier tonight, noted that at 20 inches, Suri is one-third the height of her father, already, Tom Cruise. But let‘s talk about that name, Suri. What‘s it mean? Only Olbermann, right?
O‘NEIL: I know. I think it means—doesn‘t it mean princess in Hebrew? Of course, here‘s Mr. Cruise, who has no shortage of lack of humility, shall we say, which is one of his big problems naming his child this. But it‘s a beautiful name, Suri.
SCARBOROUGH: It is a beautiful name. And I read a line in The Washington Post this morning, something about Tom claiming that he was going to eat the placenta. Tell us about that? Did it actually unfold that way in the operating room?
O‘NEIL: No, no, no. That came from an interview he gave to GQ. And this is the trouble of reading a print interview. People took it literally. He‘s claiming now he was just kidding. But, of course, with this guy, who knows?
SCARBOROUGH: I was going to say, with this guy, you‘ve got to be very careful about how firmly you‘re tongue‘s planted in your cheek.
Hey, Tom O‘Neil, thanks so much for that breaking news.
And now on to breaking news, live, from “Scarborough Country,” Our executive producer, Matt Saul, (ph) and his wife. Kellie, (ph) had a baby of their own. Her name, Hattie Jane (ph). She also is about—Hattie Jane Saul—she also—jumping ahead to the joke—she‘s also one-third of the height of Tom Cruise. She was born on April 5th, 04-05-06, if you want to put that on your lottery tickets at home. Congratulations to Matt and Kellie and Hattie Jane (ph).
We‘ll be right back.
SCARBOROUGH: Time for tonight‘s must see S.C., video you‘ve got to see.
Now, these drivers are competing in the United Kingdom‘s roll-over championship, where each driver tries to outdo the other by seeing who can flip their cars the most times. And the driver‘s are judged on distance, elevation, style and apparently stupidity.
That‘s all the time we‘ve got for tonight. Thanks for being with us.
“The Situation with Tucker Carlson” starts right now.
And thanks to you at home for tuning in to “The Situation.”
Coming to you tonight from the hub city, Boston. Good to have you with us.
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