updated 4/21/2006 10:53:20 AM ET 2006-04-21T14:53:20

Guests: Vito Colucci, Moez Mostafa, Lisa Pinto, Norm Early, Bruce Baron, David Feige, Marcus Kabel, David Kock, Steve Hoge

RITA COSBY, HOST:  Good evening, everybody.  Tonight, we have details of a deadly school plot so close to completion, the guns, ammunition and knives were all ready to go.  But wait until you hear how police found out about it and stepped in just in time.

And for the very first time, I‘ll ask an attorney for two of the prime suspects in the Natalee Holloway case if the new arrest could clear his clients.

But first tonight, another search of Duke University‘s dorm rooms just a short bit ago.  LIVE AND DIRECT has learned tonight that police have been searching the rooms of the two lacrosse players who were arrested and charged with rape in the alleged assault of an exotic dancer.  And authorities seized some unusual items.

Joining me now with the latest details is reporter Rucks Russell with NBC station WNCN out of Raleigh-Durham.  Rucks, tell us what they found in the dorm rooms.

RUCKS RUSSELL, WNCN-TV:  Well, I tell you, they were serving for pretty much the same material from each room.  Specifically, they were looking for clothing belonging to the suspects and the accuser, digital recordings, still photographs and e-mail correspondence.  Now, from Collin Finnerty‘s room, they seized a “New York Times” article dated April 4 of this year and an envelope which was addressed to Finnerty from Duke University.  That envelope was dated from September of 2005.

Now, the search warrant for the other gentleman came in late tonight, and I can tell you they took a bit more from Reade Seligmann‘s room.  They took an iPod mini, an I-trip (ph) device and pictures of Seligmann with some unidentified friends.

COSBY:  You know, Rucks, as we‘re looking at pictures here, you talked about September 2005.  What exactly was that, that letter, and what were the contents?  Do we have any idea?

RUSSELL:  We have not been able to glean anything about the contents of that letter as of yet.  We also don‘t know what the significance of that “New York Times” article that was seized was.  So clearly, some questions out there.  It gets more bizarre as things progress.

COSBY:  Also, too, what about the third suspect?  Are you hearing any buzz as—are they looking for clues gleaning to the third person, Rucks?

RUSSELL:  Well, certainly, there is every indication that there is a third suspect.  Police are trying to put together the evidence that they need to move forward.  The DA has indicated that he plans to move forward in a search—with a search for the third suspect.  Of course, the grand jury reconvenes on May 1, and we expect right now that some evidence could be presented to that grand jury and they could move ahead.

COSBY:  You know, today we were hearing from attorneys for the two guys, Reade Seligmann and also Collin Finnerty.  They were saying—Collin Finnerty‘s attorney especially was saying that their clients are not going to do any sort of plea deal.  There will be no guilty plea whatsoever.  What kind of buzz are you hearing from the attorneys?

RUSSELL:  Well, certainly, no guilty plea.  That‘s totally out of the question.  The other thing the attorneys are making some hay over right now is the photo line-up procedure.  They believe that the photographs that were shown to the accuser in this case may have violated state procedure in terms of the number of pictures that the accuser was shown of both legitimate suspects, and I guess for lack of a better term, dummy suspects, people who would have had nothing to do with that party on that night.  They believe that if that process wasn‘t followed according to state guidelines, that they could get some traction on that.  And they‘re asking police to come clean and tell them exactly how that process went down, and we‘re still waiting to get word from police on that.

COSBY:  And what‘s the latest on the DNA?  We all thought it would be coming back pretty much by now.

RUSSELL:  Well, we did, but as many other things in this case have proved, you know, what you expect, it just doesn‘t happen.  The latest thing we‘re hearing from defense attorneys is that they‘re being told it could be some time next week.

COSBY:  And also, what about the status of the boys?  There‘s word that they have been suspended?

RUSSELL:  They have been suspended.  Duke University has confirmed that, but they‘re not commenting on the merits of that decision, why that decision was made.  But that is confirmed.

COSBY:  All right, Rucks.  Please keep us posted if you hear more on the searches tonight.  Thank you very much.

And what does this latest search tell us?  Let me now bring in private investigator Vito Colucci.  Vito, I found what Rucks was saying also particularly interesting about the “New York Times” article they were seizing, and also this letter from Duke University dated September 2005.  What are they looking for?

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, none of the—they have walked away with none of the things that they put down that they were looking for, OK?  And did they actually think, Rita, that they‘re going to go in this late in the game and find her other shoe or find some evidence, maybe blood or DNA or something, after all this time?  Even if these guys were involved, they would have got rid of that.  What did they walk out of there with?  A “New York Times” article, a letter, we don‘t know what it‘s about.  You have to walk out with something, Rita.  You look kind of foolish if you walk out empty-handed, you know?

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And Vito, I want to show—because we have some exclusive video from inside one of the dorms at Duke University.  This is very similar to the one that was searched by police.  Our crews went in and got a glimpse of it, an exclusive glimpse of it.  You know, as we look at that, as you point out, could it hurt the prosecution‘s case that they keep going back to the rooms?

COLUCCI:  Yes.  I mean, during a trial, if it‘s brought up that you made a subsequent search, and what did you come up with, and where did you get the information?  Did somebody tell you if you do another search, you‘re going to find some things that would help your case, and then you walk out with nothing?  How could it possibly help them?  And unless they find something—I heard you say before about pictures.  Maybe there‘s something on that.  We don‘t know.  But none of the things that were listed they walked out of there with, Rita.

COSBY:  And real quickly, speaking of pictures, the photo line-up—we just heard Rucks talking about there‘s some questions from the defense attorney.  They‘re questioning everything in this case.  But they came out and said that they question the way the photo line-up was done.  And what we are hearing is that maybe she was only shown lacrosse team players and not sort of a bunch of strangers, making it easier for her to hone in on them.  Is that an issue?

COLUCCI:  Yes, I mean, depending on what their law is, Rita, definitely.  It could have been showing just lacrosse team players.  They could have been showing maybe not enough of pictures.  There‘s a certain amount you have to do.  Maybe they had some people that appeared older in there that were with the young people.  It depends what they did on that, but it certainly doesn‘t look good right now, Rita.

COSBY:  All right, Vito.  Hang on because today, everyone is talking about an interview that LIVE AND DIRECT first brought you last night.  And tonight, we have even more to show you.  A Durham cab driver is explaining how he drove several of the players home that night, and his story could help one of the key suspects.  But actually, it could hurt some of his teammates.  It is part of the story that you‘ll see right here only on LIVE AND DIRECT.

The cabbie‘s night began when he picked up Reade Seligmann near the house where the party took place.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  Moez, where were you on March 14?

MOEZ MOSTAFA, CAB DRIVER:  March 14, I was here at the station (INAUDIBLE) and working by myself.

COSBY:  And what call did you get?

MOSTAFA:  I got the call at 12:14 (INAUDIBLE)

COSBY:  At 12:14 in the morning, you received a call.

MOSTAFA:  Yes.

COSBY:  Now, this number that we see here at 12:14...

MOSTAFA:  Yes.

COSBY:  ... whose phone number is this?

MOSTAFA:  This phone number belong to Reade.

COSBY:  Reade Seligmann, who has now...

MOSTAFA:  Reade Seligmann.

COSBY:  ... been charged in the Duke rape case?

MOSTAFA:  Yes, ma‘am.

COSBY:  How do you know for sure that you picked up Reade Seligmann?

MOSTAFA:  Yes, I know—I know his face that time, and I recognize him (INAUDIBLE) remember his face.

COSBY:  How long is that drive?

MOSTAFA:  About four, five minutes.

COSBY:  And how long do you think it took at that hour of the night, in the middle of the night?

MOSTAFA:  It take maybe less than four minutes because (INAUDIBLE) nighttime.

COSBY:  Do you remember anything about the ride?  Where was he sitting, and how did he act?

MOSTAFA:  They sit normal, and they‘re just joking and laughing like any young people, you know?

COSBY:  So what time do you think you arrived there at the house?

MOSTAFA:  I arrive between—I guess between 12:19.  Yes.

COSBY:  So just about five minutes later.

MOSTAFA:  About five minutes, yes.

COSBY:  And how many people were with him in the car?

MOSTAFA:  There are two people standing on the corner, and I take them, too.

COSBY:  And did you recognize the other boy who was in the other seat?

MOSTAFA:  No.  I didn‘t recognize him like Reade.  (INAUDIBLE) standing on this corner here, right by the stop signs, the two guys.  And I stopped right here.  And they open the door and they get inside the car.  And they tell me, take us to Wachovia bank.

COSBY:  You picked them up on the corner.  Then you came to this bank?

MOSTAFA:  I came to the Wachovia bank machine, yes.

COSBY:  And who took out money from the machine?

MOSTAFA:  Reade.

COSBY:  Reade Seligmann?

MOSTAFA:  Yes.  He came out this side door and he went to the machine down there, where he take some money out.

COSBY:  And how long did it take to drive here?

MOSTAFA:  From the corner, about two or three minutes.

COSBY:  Did you notice anything unusual about their behavior?  Was he drunk at all?

MOSTAFA:  No, I guess he‘s a little bit, but not that much drunk.

COSBY:  Just a little drunk?

MOSTAFA:  Yes.  Not drunk so he can‘t get out and can‘t get inside my car.

COSBY:  Did you see any bruises, any scratches on him?

MOSTAFA:  I didn‘t see anything unnormal.

COSBY:  Nothing unusual?

MOSTAFA:  Nothing unusual.

COSBY:  So after the bank, where did you take them to?

MOSTAFA:  I take them to cook-out (ph) restaurant.

COSBY:  This restaurant right here?

MOSTAFA:  This restaurant right here.

COSBY:  And this is open very late?

MOSTAFA:  Yes, it‘s open very late, like maybe 3:00, 4:00 o‘clock in the morning.

COSBY:  After you left here, where did you take them?

MOSTAFA:  After I left here, they said they wanted to go to the west campus, Edens (ph) dorm.

COSBY:  To—back to the dorm on campus.

MOSTAFA:  Back to the dorm on campus.  That‘s where I took them to.

COSBY:  And how much of a fare was it?  How long were you with them?

MOSTAFA:  About 30, 35 minutes.  And they asked me how much it is.  I told them about $17, $18.  And they gave me—Reade (INAUDIBLE) Reade, he gave me $25.

COSBY:  So they gave you a pretty big tip?

MOSTAFA:  A very big tip, yes.

COSBY:  Is that why it stands out in your mind?

MOSTAFA:  No, because I (INAUDIBLE) them a long time, and they make my car smell (ph) -- that‘s the only reason I have it in my mind.

COSBY:  His father showed up here, and when he saw the call near the house, right, about a block away from the house, he said, This is for sure my son‘s cell phone number?

MOSTAFA:  Yes, ma‘am.

COSBY:  One hundred percent?

MOSTAFA:  One hundred percent.  He jumped (INAUDIBLE) the chair and he was happy.

COSBY:  He was jumping up and down?

MOSTAFA:  Jump up and down.  He said, yes, I know my son called for a taxi at this time.

COSBY:  Moez, how do you feel to know now you may be Reade Seligmann‘s alibi?

MOSTAFA:  I‘m so happy that I‘m telling the truth.  I‘m so happy if this guy is innocent, he didn‘t do anything, I‘m so happy to see him out, just do his normal life as he used to do.

COSBY:  And you‘re sure that it was Reade Seligmann that night?

MOSTAFA:  I was sure...

COSBY:  You‘re you were with him for half an hour?  You‘re sure he took your cab?

MOSTAFA:  I‘m sure, yes.  He did that.  He called me.  I‘m sure I pick him up.  I took him to the bank and I took him to the cook-out, where he got some food.

COSBY:  No doubt in your mind it was definitely this man that night?

MOSTAFA:  Nothing.  No doubt at all.  A hundred percent.

COSBY:  And you will testify under oath to that?

MOSTAFA:  Sure.

COSBY:  You made a second pick-up that night near the house, one actually at the house.  What did they say in the cab that was unusual to you?

MOSTAFA:  I remember one guy, he said in a loud voice, She just a stripper.

COSBY:  Did you think he was complaining or something bad happened with the stripper?

MOSTAFA:  I have no idea.  I don‘t have any information about what was going on in the house.

COSBY:  Now that you look back?

MOSTAFA:  Yes, when I look back, he look like he mad of the stripper, or that the stripper, she going to call the police and she just a stripper.

COSBY:  Did it seem to you that someone had been raped in the house and they were talking about a rape?

MOSTAFA:  No.  My mind couldn‘t go that far away.  But it looked to me like somebody got hurt, but what kind of harm or what kind of—I have no idea.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  You know, Vito, when you hear that and you hear, It‘s just a stripper, and maybe somebody got hurt, how do you read that?

COLUCCI:  Well, that I‘m thinking, Rita, when I first heard that, maybe she ID‘d the wrong people, if she was truly indeed raped.  Maybe she ID‘d the wrong guys here, Rita, and that‘s a good possibility.

COSBY:  And that‘s exactly what I thought, Vito, too, because maybe, you know, she got confused in who it was, but it certainly sounds like this second group of guys, these four guys that we don‘t know who they were, they were at least talking about her and clearly upset about something or saying no one‘s going to believe her.  It‘s hard to interpret which way it means, but you could certainly read a lot of things into, It‘s just a stripper, right?

COLUCCI:  Oh, definitely.  Just that comment alone.  But you know, this cab driver, Rita, he‘s going to be instrumental for the other guys.  I mean, this is a guy with no agenda at all.  Seems like an honorable guy.  He‘s willing tell the truth.  The only problem, Rita, is just like the victim‘s been getting death threats, I can almost assure you this poor soul will get his, too, down the road.  He‘ll be getting death threats, too, for what he‘s going to testify.  And it‘s a shame that it‘s going to be that way.

COSBY:  Absolutely, just for telling the truth.  Thank you very much, Vito.

And when we come back, you‘re going to hear from the friends of the lacrosse players.  Are they sticking by them?  Plus, reaction to the cabbie‘s story.  It‘s coming up.  And that‘s not all tonight.  Take a look, everybody.

Still ahead, we‘ve got details of a deadly shooting rampage that was supposed to go down inside a high school.  The guns, the ammo and even the plans were already in place.  In a surprise twist, did the controversial Myspace Web site actually prevent the killings?

And LIVE AND DIRECT from Aruba, for the first time, I‘ll ask the attorney for two of the prime suspects in Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance, Do his clients know the new suspect behind bars, and could his arrest set them free?

And this man‘s gruesome crime was so bad that it led to one of the scariest horror films ever made.  For the first time in three decades, he‘s talking about the Amityville murders.  You‘ll hear it coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And we went to the Duke campus to speak directly with the friends of the accused lacrosse players.  The young women that we spoke with told us they don‘t believe that these two men are capable of such a terrible crime, and they have come up with a unique way to get their point across.  Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  A bunch of us have made shirts and are handing them out on the main quad for free, just saying “Innocent until proven guilty.”  I think it‘s a really important thing for us to remember that it‘s supposed to be a value of our Constitution and our country and, you know, something that really should be remembered in the—both media coverage of this event and in just treatment.

I just know these two players.  They—I live in the same dorm as some of them for two years.  And I‘m friends with them and (INAUDIBLE) with them, and I believe that they are both the people—you know, anyone who knows them is in complete shock.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Tell me why you‘re wearing the shirt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Because I support Duke lax.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  What are you guys doing today?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Just out here showing our support for the team (INAUDIBLE) a lot of people don‘t see that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Do you know the players?  How many of them do you know?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Pretty much the whole team.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  And how has this been, you know, for—to them?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It‘s been hard for them.  It‘s been really hard. 

It‘s sad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And that was two Duke University sophomores speaking out in defense of their friends, Collin Finnerty and also Reade Seligmann.  The two lacrosse players were arrested, of course, and charged with rape, assault and kidnapping of an exotic dancer at a party last month.  Now brand-new evidence and a detailed timeline could prove at least one of the two suspects may be innocent.

Joining us now is former prosecutors Lisa, Pinto, defense attorney Bruce Baron, also former trial chief in the Bronx public defenders office David Feige, and also former Denver district attorney Norm Early.

Lisa, first, the search tonight—and I want to put up again what they seized.  And this is what—some of the items that we know actually that they searched for in the suspect‘s room—clothing (INAUDIBLE) this is what they were looking for in the warrant—looking for digital recordings, still photos, e-mail correspondence.  And how here is actually what they Senator Clinton seized.  they got this “New York Times” article, which we don‘t know what it has to do about, April 4, 2006.  Maybe it was about the case.  Also an envelope addressed to Finnerty from September 2005.  We were hearing that it‘s from Duke University.  What are they looking for, Lisa?

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR:  They‘re looking for anything connected to people that the young woman identified as her perpetrators.  If you believe what the victim says, the government did, found probable cause, they got to go from there.  But Rita, I got to say you deserve a gold shield in this case because you are digging up more corroboration for the prosecution, between the second stripper and now Mostafa.  Who is the guy in his cab that said, She‘s just a stripper?  That would be the beginning of my summation in this trial.

COSBY:  You know, and I want to know that, too.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Norm—that line—in fact, let‘s play it again because as Lisa brings up—let‘s play what he said.  I found that very important, too.  Maybe they got the wrong guys, but somebody was certainly talking about these dancers that night.  Let‘s play what Mostafa, the cab driver, said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOSTAFA:  I remember one guy, he said in a loud voice, She just a stripper.

COSBY:  She‘s just a stripper?

MOSTAFA:  Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, Norm, I asked him, How do you read that?  And he said sounds like somebody maybe was hurt.  How do you read that, Norma?  How do you interpret it?

NORM EARLY, SPOKESPERSON, NATIONAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSOC.:  It sounds to me like a justification for something that happened with the stripper, to the stripper or while they were together.  It doesn‘t sound like something that you would say—it has a lot of meaning to me as a prosecutor, and it should have a lot of meaning to the defense attorney.  That‘s how you would have expected Reade Seligmann to react in a cab.  The cab driver provides...

COSBY:  And remember...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  We want to make sure for our audience this was somebody else. 

This was four other boys.

EARLY:  Oh, yes.  These were other boys.  But Reade Seligmann‘s conduct was not like that.  He acted very, very normal, according to the cab driver.  And you would think if someone had just been involved in a sexual assault, that they would be acting hyper, that they‘d be jittery.  They certainly wouldn‘t be normal.  And maybe they would be saying something like, She‘s just a stripper, as a justification for their own actions.

COSBY:  You know, you brought up a good point.  Let me play, in fact -

this is what the cab driver told us about Reade Seligmann‘s behavior.  He said he was in the back seat.  And again, he said he was with them for about 30 to 35 minutes that night.  This is how, according to the cab driver, Reade Seligmann behaved.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MOSTAFA:  They sit normal, and they‘re just joking and laughing like any young people, you know?  Nothing looked suspicious to me.

COSBY:  Did it look like he went through something horrible, was covering something up?

MOSTAFA:  No.  They looked just, I mean, just like normal.  Just like normal.  Nothing looked strange to me.

COSBY:  Did he seem nervous?  Did he seem panicked about anything?

MOSTAFA:  No, I didn‘t see any nervous, no stressful, nothing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  David, you know, I mean, that‘s pretty revealing.  And he also said...

(CROSSTALK)

DAVID FEIGE, FORMER TRIAL CHIEF, BRONX PUBLIC DEFENDERS OFFICE:  Yes.

COSBY:  ... that the guy—he also said—not just do we have cab driver‘s testimony, we have ATM receipts, apparently...

(CROSSTALK)

FEIGE:  We‘ve got everything here!

COSBY:  What does that say to you?

FEIGE:  Look, Lisa is in the other—in the other studio, like, ready to sum up on the guy who hasn‘t been charged.  What about Reade Seligmann?  Like, are you ready to say, OK, this is a mistake, this guy‘s innocent, let‘s dismiss these charges and let this child go on with his life?

For God‘s sake!  It‘s enough already  Every single thing this woman has said has been discredited, one after the next...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Wait a minute, you guys!  Wait a minute.  Let me get in here, you guys, because let me play—this is the second dancer—because she does back up some of the woman‘s story.  And I can tell you, I talked to the second dancer, and this woman seems very credible and said, Look, I‘m not going to say I saw a rape because she said she didn‘t.  But she also had some interesting information.  Let‘s play what the second dancer had to say.  I believe this woman‘s genuine.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Well, she was just incoherent.  She couldn‘t—she had to be helped to the car, you know, so she couldn‘t really walk on her own.  She couldn‘t—she really couldn‘t get her thoughts together enough to answer any questions.  You know, she just was out of it.  She was out of it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY:  So that certainly puts a different spin.

(CROSSTALK)

PINTO:  David, the issue here that‘s so clear to me is that none of us have talked to this complainant, including David Feige.  This young woman told a very moving account...

FEIGE: How do you know?

PINTO:  ... to several people...

FEIGE:  How do you know, Lisa?  How do you know it was moving?

(CROSSTALK)

PINTO:  ... and have vaginal tearing, David.  Neither you nor I have seen the meds (ph).  We haven‘t talked to this woman, and you‘re ready to just throw her case right out.

FEIGE:  No, no.  I‘m ready to...

(CROSSTALK)

PINTO:  What‘s so significant here is that there was a prompt outcry.  There‘s clearly medical evidence to corroborate her claim.  And Rita has got this gold gem for the prosecutor, the other woman who was there and says this lady went in sober...

FEIGE:  You know, Lisa...

PINTO:  ... and came out whacked out.

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  ... give you five seconds.  I got to get Bruce in.  Go ahead, David.

FEIGE:  Let me just ask you, Lisa.  If—under what circumstances, then, are you willing to conclude that this guy is innocent, or is it just impossible?  Tell me.  What could possibly...

PINTO:  Are you talking about Reade?

FEIGE:  ... come out that would make (INAUDIBLE)

PINTO:  Are you talking about Reade Seligmann?

FEIGE:  Reade Seligmann.

(CROSSTALK)

PINTO:  ... I would like to talk to the victim.  I would like to see his photographs.  I‘d like to know what he did from 12:01 to 12:19.  He may well be innocent.  I don‘t know enough about the case.  But I do know that I‘m not throwing this victim‘s credibility out the window...

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Let me bring in Bruce Baron, you guys—let me bring in Bruce because, Bruce, is it possible that maybe something did happen, but maybe they got the wrong guy?

BRUCE BARON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  You know, Rita, I‘m biting at the chump (ph) over here to get in at this because something did happen here.  The grand jury indicted the wrong people.  The bottom line is this.  The grand jury came out of the 5th Amendment to the United States Constitution to protect citizens from governmental overreach.  It is amazing what overreach exists here.

Over the past 25 years, the United States Supreme Court has given prosecutors much more latitude, much more power.  It‘s ridiculous!  Exculpatory evidence is not even used to that grand jury.  Did this prosecutor let that jury know...

(CROSSTALK)

BARON:  ... that while this woman was being raped, he was having a cheeseburger after being dropped off with the cab?  Did the grand jury find out that there was no matching DNA of 46 individuals...

PINTO:  What about his character?

(CROSSTALK)

COSBY:  Yes, Norman—in fact, Norm, let me put up a stunning poll.  This I was pretty surprised about.  “Drudge Report” did a poll, and it asked, “Should the Duke accuser‘s name be revealed?”  And look at these numbers!  I mean, Yes, 79 percent, no, 21 percent.

Is it unfair to expose the victim?  What‘s your feeling, Norm, on this?

EARLY:  Having been a victims‘ advocate for well over 20 years, I feel good about laws that have been passed to protect the identity of victims.  It is difficult enough to go through this justice system. It is even more difficult to go through it as a victim.

FEIGE:  But how do we define who the victim is!

(CROSSTALK)

EARLY:  Hang on, guys.  You know, it seems to me that Reade Seligmann has a good alibi, and he may, as many people have been suggesting here—may not be the right person.  Now, defense attorneys...

(CROSSTALK)

EARLY:  Excuse me!  He may not be the right person, but defense attorneys are very adept at pulling this out during the course of cross-examination.

PINTO:  Sure.  Sure.

EARLY:  And one of the things that prosecutors have been able to do through the years is convince juries that the faces of their attackers are indelibly inscribed...

FEIGE:  That‘s fine.  But here‘s the problem...

EARLY:  ... in the minds of the victims.

(CROSSTALK)

EARLY:  If Reade Seligmann is not one of the people...

COSBY:  Hang on one...

EARLY:  If Reade Seligmann is not one of the people, that argument does not fly before a jury.

COSBY:  All right, Norm, hold on one second, guys.  (INAUDIBLE) going to go around to you guys.  Where do you see this case head?  I‘m going to give you all five seconds.  And let me start with you, Bruce.

BARON:  This case is done.  It‘s finished.  If this prosecutor has any guts, he will undo what he already did and dismiss with prejudice voluntarily these indictments.  The bottom—and then if he wants to go back into a grand jury again and submit all the evidence, then it‘s one thing.

COSBY:  All right, let me go to Lisa.  Lisa Pinto?

PINTO:  More investigation, more arrests, and a jury will decide.

COSBY:  OK, David Feige?

FEIGE:  He should dismiss the case.  He won‘t dismiss the case because it‘s an election year.  Shame on him!

COSBY:  Norm Early?

EARLY:  Maybe the case should be dismissed as to Reade, but I can‘t talk for the other defendants because I haven‘t seen the case.  The prosecutor knows a lot more about this case than any one of us knows about this case, and it‘s easy to sit here and conjecture, but we don‘t know the entire case.

COSBY:  All right, guys.  That‘s going to have to be the last word. 

Thank you.

And everybody, we‘re going to have continuing coverage of the Duke rape investigation.  We‘re going to stay on top of every new development.  And also, be sure to look at our Web site, rita.msnbc.com.  We have all the latest details on this case, and we are staying on top of it right here.

But still ahead tonight, a man who committed murder so gruesome that it became a horror murder is speaking out for the first time in 30 years.  You will not believe the things he has to say.  And next, big developments in Aruba.  Could the arrest of a new suspect be good news for the three young men under suspicion?  We‘ve got some new details coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  And tonight, LIVE & DIRECT has the very latest in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  Crews from the Aruban coast guard are busy searching the waters off the Caribbean island for any signs of the Alabama teen.  NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski is LIVE & DIRECT tonight in Aruba.

Michelle, why the decision to head back into the water to hunt for clues now? 

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CORRESPONDENT, NBC NEWS:  Well, prosecutors aren‘t giving us too much information, typically.  You know, they want to keep this close to the vest. 

In fact, Rita, they‘ve kept it so secret that really no one on this island seems to know about these searches, even though they‘ve been going on for the past four days, at least.  We were told by some people on the island that it even started last week, before the 19-year-old suspect was arrested over the weekend. 

Prosecutors surprised us all by putting out a press release yesterday that said they had done four days of searching.  They told us they were using sonar, with help of the Aruban coast guard, as well as the coast guard for the Dutch Antilles.

And there‘s been a lot made of this Dutch TV program that aired last week, something similar to “America‘s Most Wanted.”  That we know generated dozens of tips. 

Well, prosecutors also tell us that, in conjunction with these searches they‘re doing, they‘re working with an expert that‘s going to help them sort out those tips, decide which ones are the most credible, which ones to run after. 

So much of the information that we‘ve on this has come, not necessarily from prosecutors, but from other attorney who do have information in the investigation.  For example, the attorney for Natalee‘s mother, Beth, told us that it‘s his understanding that these searched was sparked, not by the arrest of the suspect over the weekend, but by information they were able to gather from some local people who have knowledge of the ocean in certain areas, people like fishermen. 

He said that he knows they have sonar, that they were able to give prosecutors some tips about possible irregularities on the ocean floor.  He says that it‘s his understanding that‘s what they‘re going for, although he thinks, in the four days of searching so far, they haven‘t found anything. 

He also told us that those water searches are expected to continue, and we don‘t know the exact area of them.  You know, there are certain key places on the island, the fisherman‘s huts, the light house. 

We don‘t know if they‘re associated with that area, but we know, at least today, we‘ve been watching those key places, and we didn‘t see any activity today. 

And that 19-year-old suspect we mentioned, Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, he‘s still in jail.  We were able to get out to his house today, speak briefly with his mother who basically says she didn‘t want to be bothered, although she did say that prosecutors and police have made a mistake in getting her son involved. 

His attorney also was available at the courthouse, on another case, though, not on his case.  And she said basically that she said all she has to say and that Van Cromvoirt is holding up as best he can.  She wanted to get the information out, though.  She says he does not know the three suspects originally from this case and that he was not working beach patrol during the time that Natalee disappeared—Rita?

COSBY:  Michelle, thank you very much. 

Well, as the new underwater search for Natalee goes on there, there are new questions about the latest arrest, as you just heard from Michelle tonight.  We‘re getting some mixed messages on Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, the 19-year-old who was recently arrested in Aruba. 

Now, one source is saying that he is not and never has been implicated for murdering Natalee.  The source tells us that any thought that Van Cromvoirt killed Natalee is totally nonsense and simply did not happen. 

Meanwhile, Van Cromvoirt‘s mother is also speaking out to us, as well, telling us, quote, “Aruban police arresting my son was a huge mistake.  I mean a big, big mistake.  My son is doing all right, given that he is sitting in jail, but all I am going to say is that this is a huge mistake,” again, from his mom.

Joining me now live from Aruba is David Kock.  He is the attorney for Deepak and Satish Kalpoe. 

David, first of all, what are your clients saying about this arrest of this 19-year-old?  Do they believe he may be connected somehow to Natalee‘s disappearance? 

DAVID KOCK, SATISH KALPOE‘S ATTORNEY:  Well, look, they did not know this gentleman before this arrest, so that is new to them.  Of course, they‘re not pleased, of course, that he has been arrested, but they are pleased that the investigation has gone into a different direction.  Because we do not know what statements Mr. Cromvoirt is giving, it‘s hard for us to comment at this moment. 

COSBY:  You know, we saw this police transcript.  And I want to put this up, because everyone has been talking about this, David.  And I want to put up one exchange between the three.  This is Joran and the two Kalpoe brothers, who you represent.

Joran says, “I know very well that you‘re afraid, that is, if you did something bad with the girl, and if they find the girl, then we‘ll see.”  Satish then says, “I‘m not afraid.  Why must I be afraid?”

Deepak responds, “I want them to find the girl.  You‘re going to talk about (blank) about me, that I have buried the girl by fisherman‘s hut?”  Joran comes back, “Who said about burying?  I said nothing about burying.”  And finally, Deepak, your client, says, “That‘s what you testified.  Stop with the (blank).” 

What does this say?  A lot of people say that it looks like they‘re sort of all lying.  How do you read this? 

KOCK:  Well, but just to put it into perspective, I mean, into the time that that was said, no, if you remember a certain moment, remember the exact date in the beginning of June, Joran said at a certain moment that he thinks that maybe Deepak buried this girl.  So that is where this is coming from. 

And as you see from the transcripts, Satish is totally not concerned about anything.  And Deepak was just upset at that moment that Joran indicated that maybe he had to do something with the disappearance. 

COSBY:  You know, David, did they know they were being recorded?  There‘s been a lot of questions as to whether they knew that they were being secretly recorded or not. 

KOCK:  No, they did not know.  But I must tell you that we have these statements from long already.  So we were not concerned about them, neither.  And as you see, they did not serve to keep detaining the brothers.  So that‘s why we say you have to put in perspective.  It looks as if that came out now, but that was out many months ago already. 

COSBY:  You know, Joran Van Der Sloot‘s attorney was talking out this morning, and he‘s saying—his interpretations of these recordings is actually that he believes, you know, its help his client, in some way.  Let me play that clip, and then I‘ll get you to react, David.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)  

JOE TACOPINA, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT‘S ATTORNEY:  It shows a total unknowing on the part of Joran Van Der Sloot.  It shows him saying, “If they find this girl alive, I‘m going to laugh.”  Clearly, if he had killed her, he wouldn‘t have made a comment like that not knowing it‘s being recorded. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, David, do you believe these tapes in some way help your clients? 

KOCK:  Well, I don‘t think that they are negative for my clients.  I think it also shows that they‘re saying, because if you read further on, that they indicate that Joran is the one who should be responsible and that Joran should know where the girl is. 

So I think you can interpret it both ways, if when somebody laughs, if they find the girl, is it because you know that she‘s not going to be found or you suppose that she‘s going to be found?  You can go both ways with that.

COSBY:  You know, David, you know a lot of people there on the island. 

I met you when I was there many, many months ago.  It‘s a small island.  What is the read you‘re getting from people there on the ground?  Do you get any sense that they‘re close to solving this case or is this, you know, this latest arrest and everything else, you know, just another sideshow? 

KOCK:  No, look, I think, as you know, the D.A. is under a microscope.  And think, from certain statements that she had made to third parties, I don‘t think she would go through all this action at this point of the investigation if she did not feel very comfortable, very sure about what she was doing.  In any case, I hope that for her. 

COSBY:  All right, David Kock, thank you very much for being with us from Aruba.  We appreciate it. 

KOCK:  You‘re welcome, Rita.

COSBY:  And coming up next, everybody, you‘ve heard horror stories about how stalkers have found their targets on the MySpace.com Web site.  But tonight, it appears that same site may have stopped a Columbine-like school plot.  Guns, knives and ammunition all found in one student‘s home. 

And speaking of horror stories, for the very first time in 30 years, a man whose bloody crime became the infamous Amityville horror story is speaking out, and you‘re going to hear from him, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) 

SHERIFF STEVE NORMAN, CHEROKEE COUNTY, KANSAS:  We believe that they were going to show up on this date, because of the significance with Columbine and their infatuation with the Nazism and the figurehead of Adolf Hitler. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And with just hours to spare, Kansas police thwarted a dangerous Columbine-style school shooting.  Four teens are now under arrest, accused of planning the rampage; another is being questioned.  The killing was set for today, the seventh anniversary of Columbine. 

Joining us now with the very latest on the phone from Kansas is Associated Press correspondent Marcus Kabel.

Marcus, tell us what these teens were planning. 

MARCUS KABEL, AP CORRESPONDENT:  Well, according to the Cherokee County sheriff, interviews after the arrest very early today with the suspects, according to the sheriff, showed that they had very concrete plans to stage a Columbine-style shoot-up at the high school in Riverton, to show up in long, black jackets, and take out the school security cameras ahead of time. 

Now, the Kansas attorney general, who is taking the lead in the investigation, talked to reporters this evening and declined to discuss any of those details and also won‘t say yet whether the four juveniles, if they are charged, may be charged as juveniles or adults. 

COSBY:  You know, I want to put up what was found in one of the boy‘s homes, from what we understand in the home.  They found guns, ammunition, knives.  Also, we know that they took some coded messages, as well. 

How many people were they planning to kill?  And how long were they planning this, Marcus? 

KABEL:  Well, according to the sheriff, based on the interviews, they had been planning this since the beginning of the school year.  And they made direct reference to Columbine. 

We don‘t know, or at least we have not been told, how many people they planned to kill or shoot.  We also don‘t know exactly what the weapons are.  Again, the state attorney general this evening, Phil Kline, didn‘t want to talk before any charges are filed about what exactly the weapons were that were found in one home. 

Lockers were also searched in the school, and the attorney general did not want to talk about what other search warrants may be out there.  But he said the investigation was ongoing and search warrants are involved.  So there may be more finds. 

COSBY:  You know, Marcus, I understand that one of the boys revealed the plot to a North Carolina woman last night on MySpace.com.  Tell us how that all came about. 

KABEL:  Well, again, based on what we‘re being told by law enforcement here, that‘s all very unclear.  The North Carolina woman apparently got in touch with law enforcement there.  They relayed the tip here.  School administrators were also told and were involved from early on and helped plan additional security that was at the school this morning and throughout the day where they had sheriff‘s deputies staged outside.  But the...

COSBY:  And what‘s next for the teens?  What‘s next for the teens?

KABEL:  Sorry?

COSBY:  What‘s next for the four boys...

(CROSSTALK)  

KABEL:  Well, they‘re likely to have their first court hearing tomorrow in Cherokee County.  Again, we don‘t know if the four juveniles will face juvenile or adult charges, if they are charged.  At this point, they‘re being held in custody. 

And we may find out more, if charges are filed.  There may be more details on the plans, the weapons, and possibly what motivated them. 

COSBY:  All right, Marcus, please keep us posted. 

And, everybody, just a few minutes ago, MySpace.com, which you heard somebody out in North Carolina, this woman, apparently he relayed the information on MySpace, and that‘s how authorities found out the information. 

Well, MySpace released a statement reading, in part, “Due to the sensitive nature of law enforcement investigations, MySpace does not provide information about specific investigations or incidents.”  MySpace further says, “Users are encouraged to report any activity they feel jeopardizes the safety of the community.” 

And up next, the Amityville horror story is one of the scariest movies of all time.  Tonight, hear from the real killer for the very first time, whose deadly crimes sparked that gruesome film and several others.  That‘s coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD DEFEO, JR., CONVICTED OF KILLING FAMILY:  I do know, in my mind and my heart, it was just a matter of time.  I know it ain‘t right, but in my heart it is.  In my mind, it‘s wrong; but in my heart, it‘s right. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  And that‘s convicted killer Ronald DeFeo, Jr.  Thirty-one years ago in a crime so infamous that it has been the subject of 10 movies, DeFeo murdered his entire family while they were sleeping in their Amityville, Long Island, home.  He confessed to the murders and is serving a life sentence in prison.

In an A&E documentary that premieres next week, DeFeo speaks for the first time on television, recounting graphic details about that night.  He even makes a shocking claim that he wasn‘t the only one involved in the murders. 

Joining me now is Dr. Steven Hoge.  He‘s director of forensic psychiatry at Bellevue Hospital.  Dr. Hoge conducted this dramatic interview with DeFeo.

You know, it is stunning to hear this guy.  Why did he say he killed his family? 

STEVE HOGE, M.D., FORENSICS PSYCHIATRY, BELLEVUE HOSPITAL:  Well, Ronald described himself to me as being like a dog on a leash.  And he had been attacked, by his account, recently by his father in an altercation that came about as a result of a robbery, where he stole money from his father‘s dealership, car dealership. 

COSBY:  And, in fact, I want to show a little clip where he talks specifically about the mental and physical abuse by his father. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEFEO:  My father broke a pool stick over my head.  It was November 3rd.  It was about 11:00 or a little after 11:00 at night. 

HOGE:  Your father clobbered you...

DEFEO:  He broke a pool stick over my head, and my mother cheered him on, “Hit him again.”

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY:  You know, Dr. Hoge, he‘s obviously clearly angry at his father.  But why did he kill the rest of his family?  Why did he say that? 

HOGE:  Well, his explanation for killing his mother, they were in bed side-by-side.  He shoots his father, and then his mother wakes up, and he claims that he‘s concerned that his mother is reaching for a handgun kept in a bed stand, and so he felt compelled to shoot his mother. 

COSBY:  And then he also makes a pretty dramatic claim, a very surprising claim.  He says—this is the first time we‘ve heard this—that his sister played a role, according to him.  Let me play that. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEFEO:  She looked at me.  She goes, “Oh, oh, my god, look what you did.”  I said, “Look what I did?”  I said, “This was your idea, not mine.”  I said, “Look what I did?”  I said, “Mommy got shot on top of it.”

(END VIDEO CLIP)  

COSBY:  And then he claims, what, he killed his sister after that?  Do you believe him? 

HOGE:  I actually don‘t believe the account here.  The physical evidence, as recounted in the documentary, seems to refute virtually every claim that he made. 

COSBY:  So you believe that he killed everybody, that his sister did not play a role? 

HOGE:  That‘s my belief.  Now, I don‘t have any evidence.  I couldn‘t swear to that in a court; I obviously wasn‘t there. 

But the physical evidence goes against it.  And I believe that, in the course of the interview, he reveals how upset he is, particularly over the murders of his younger brothers and sister.  So I believe, psychologically, he demonstrates evidence of being—continuing to be distressed over those murders. 

COSBY:  OK, so you hit that.  Does he believe his own lies?  And is he insane? 

HOGE:  I do not believe he‘s insane.  He certainly does not qualify by any legal definition of insanity.  Does he believe his own lies?  I believe he‘s the sort of person who could come to believe his own lies. 

COSBY:  And why do you think he killed his family, you as a psychiatrist?

HOGE:  I think there are a number of possible explanations here. 

Again, he described himself as being like a dog on a leash. 

His father was very abusive toward him but, at the same time, gave him a great deal of money and privileges, a car, a speedboat, money to buy clothes.  This was a man also who was doing heroin and drinking a fifth of liquor every day.  Following having robbed the dealership, his father, I believe, started to cut back on his allowance. 

COSBY:  So this was lashing out at what he wasn‘t getting from daddy? 

HOGE:  I think, in part, lashing out at what he wasn‘t getting from daddy, and, in part, going through drug and alcohol withdrawal. 

COSBY:  And, real quick, was he remorseful at all?  Did he say, “Look, I dread what happened”?  Did you see any sign of remorse in this man? 

HOGE:  I did not see any sign of remorse. 

COSBY:  None? 

HOGE:  None. 

COSBY:  Did that shock you? 

HOGE:  Well, I think he‘s consistent with other people with anti-social personality disorder.  I do not believe that they typically experience remorse. 

COSBY:  Dr. Hoge, thank you very much. 

HOGE:  You‘re welcome.

COSBY:  Interesting interview, and eye-opening, and shocking, in a lot of regards.  Thank you very much. 

HOGE:  Thank you.

COSBY:  And coming up next, a story about a suspect who escaped and was determined not to be dragged back into captivity, an “All-Points Bulletin” caught by Cosby, next. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY:  Well, you have heard of Dr. Feelgood, but this one you can call Dr. Feel-Up. 

(LAUGHTER)

A Florida man has been arrested for offering to give free breast exams, except—get this—he‘s not a doctor.  Police say Philip Winikoff was going door-to-door in Fort Lauderdale, the areas right around there, offering to give free breast exams to women.  Two women actually let him. 

One of them called the cops after she was concerned that he was not wearing gloves.  Needless to say, he is behind bars tonight. 

And an all-points bulletin is over tonight after police searching for an escapee caught their man, and it‘s “Caught by Cosby.”  Actually, it wasn‘t a man they were after, but really a cow. 

The cow was being moved in a trailer, but apparently decided it had ridden just about long enough.  The cow got free and caused a big mess in the streets of Traverse City, Michigan.  The cow raced up the roadway and made it into some nearby woods; eventually, with a lot of effort and determination, the cow was returned to its trailer. 

And next week, everybody, we‘re going to be moving to a new time, just a little time change.  We‘re going to be an hour earlier.  We‘re going to be right here on MSNBC at 10:00 p.m. Eastern time.  So be sure, everybody, just one hour later, you have to tune in to that for LIVE & DIRECT.

And that does it for me tonight.  Let‘s go to Joe and “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” right now.  We‘re just doing a little switcheroo, Joe.

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Little switcheroo, Rita.  Not too confusing here.  Thanks so much, Rita.

COSBY:  Not at all.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

Copy: Content and programming copyright 2006 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2006 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

transcripts

Watch Rita Cosby Live & Direct each weeknight at 9 p.m. ET

Discuss:

Discussion comments

,