Guests: Nona Farahnik, David Feige, Wendy Murphy, Jim Jennings, Paul Caulfield, Hilton Daniels, Joe Tacopina, Ken Hampton
RITA COSBY, MSNBC HOST: Thanks so much, Joe. And good evening, everybody. Tonight, sex predators on the prowl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Myspace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Myspace. And what is it about Myspace that attracts you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meeting new people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: We‘ll show you DATELINE NBC‘s latest and yet another explosive undercover expose. This time you won‘t believe how far these men are willing to go to meet under-aged kids plus details you‘ll only hear on LIVE & DIRECT in the Duke rape scandal. Tonight, the accuser‘s father tells me how he believes his daughter was raped and why there may not be any DNA evidence and the responds to defense claims that his daughter has history of mental problems. What does he reveal? We‘re going to have that exclusive interview in just a few minutes.
But first, Durham district attorney Mike Nifong is going full force after some of the other players on the Duke lacrosse team who have been trouble in the past, plus one of the players charged in the current case must now stand trial on an assault charge.
NBC‘s Michelle Hofland joins me now live from Durham with the very latest. Michelle?
MICHELLE HOFLAND, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rita, we‘re starting to get a storm out here right now, Rita, in Durham, and boy there is a lot of storm going on inside the courthouse. A lot of paper filings right now. First of all, the district attorney here says that he is reinstating old misdemeanor charges against one of the co-captains of the lacrosse team and he‘s threatening to do the same to about 15 players.
According to the “Raleigh News and Observer” today he‘s targeting co-captain David Evans because Evans lived at the house where the alleged rape took place at a party last month. Now, the charges that he‘s reinstating include a noise violation and alcohol possession. District attorney Mike Nifong also told the Raleigh paper that he plans to do the same thing, reinstate these charges that they agreed to be dropped if the 15 other players or so don‘t come forward and prove that they were not at the party the night that the dancer says that she was raped.
No, on to Washington, DC today. One of the two players charged in the rape case, he was in court in Washington, DC on an entirely different subject. Sophomore Collin Finnerty was ordered back to DC on a simple assault charge stemming from a scuffle outside a Washington, DC restaurant last November.
Now, according to the plea agreement the court was going to drop the charges if Finnerty agreed to do some community service and he stayed out of trouble about a year. Well, now that he‘s charged with rape, the judge says that he has to go to court and in court the judge made some decisions but outside the court this is what Finnerty‘s attorney had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVEN MCCOOL, COLLIN FINNERTY‘S ATTORNEY: Before I go, I just want to make clear though, however, again, that this incident has been grossly mischaracterized. This is not and has not been charged as a bias-related allegation. I want to make that clear. Thank you all very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOFLAND: Inside the courtroom today, this is what the judge ordered for Finnerty. First of all, 9:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. curfew. He needs to report weekly by phone to the court officer and avoid any place where alcohol is consumed or sold.
Joining me now is one of Collin Finnerty‘s friends and also you‘re a friend with the other man who‘s been charged, Reade Seligmann. This is Nona Farahnik. Nona, first of all, your reaction today to the simple assault charges. And is that—would you expect something like that?
NONA FARAHNIK, COLIN FINNERTY‘S FRIEND: No, it‘s definitely upsetting to see that Collin his a violent misdemeanor in his a legal history and it‘s definitely hurting his case in the court of opinion public but punching a guy after a verbal argument is not the same as going with two of your friends and raping and sodomizing a woman after slipping her a date rape drug. It‘s an unrelated and it‘s upsetting to see that he has it but I don‘t that it really has any bearing on this case.
HOFLAND: You were in the same dorm with Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann. What is the reaction of you? What kind of reaction do you have? What about the other students there about the charges of these two young men?
FARAHNIK: As soon as the indictments were unsealed, there was quick show of support on campus. Signs went all over Edens declaring we should remember the presumption of innocence is an important value in American culture and in American society. And that we support the Duke lacrosse team and we are troubled by the way that the D.A. has handled this case and legal system in this situation here.
HOFLAND: Real briefly. You‘ve been in contact with Reade‘s girlfriend? What has she said?
FARAHNIK: Yes, she told me that actually his family and she were deriving strength from his behavior since he indictment. He‘s been—he knows that he‘s innocent. He‘s comfortable at the court of law will prove him innocent and he‘s basically been giving him strength and thanking us students for supporting him because I think it‘s something important for us to do and he‘s been mischaracterized along with Collin in the press and something that we look to correct.
HOFLAND: Thank you very much, Nona.
FARAHNIK: Thank you.
HOFLAND: Thank you for joining us. Rita, back to you.
COSBY: And Michelle, thank you very much. And Nona as well. And tonight we have an exclusive interview in the Duke rape case. We‘re learning shocking details about what the accuser says really happened to her that night. I asked the accuser‘s father how he feels about the defense attacking his daughter‘s character and digging into her past.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ACCUSER‘S FATHER (on phone): That‘s my baby girl and we love her and I know she wouldn‘t make something like this up.
COSBY: You still believe to this day that she was indeed raped?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes, I do.
COSBY: The defense team has suggested that your daughter had son mental or psychological problems in the past. Has she ever been at a hospital for such treatment?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: She was at a hospital to my knowledge one week and it was because she was going to school in Durham Tech and she was taking care of too many things and it got too much for her.
COSBY: When was that?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: On 2005 of last year.
COSBY: And was it nerves? Was it a mental breakdown? What was it?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: I think mostly just her nerves. It‘s about her being tired and everything.
COSBY: Do you believe she has a drinking problem or you‘ve seen recently in the last year or so?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: No, you don‘t really have a drinking problem. I think on the weekends, she likes to drink her beer.
COSBY: Had she ever had any problems with drugs or alcohol?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Not, not with drugs. She got caught one time driving under the influence when she went to a party one night.
COSBY: Would you classify it as an alcohol problem, though?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: No.
COSBY: It sounds like seriously it was obviously a problem but do you believe she has improved since then?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes, she has. She has a lot.
COSBY: Do you know your daughter was drinking or doing drugs the night of the alleged rape?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: No, I know for a fact that she wasn‘t drinking when she left and when she called me that night, she wasn‘t drinking.
COSBY: And she called you when she was on the way to the house, you didn‘t know where she was going, but she asked for directions, correct?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes.
COSBY: And how did she sound to you on the phone?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: She sounded normal.
COSBY: The second dancer Kim Roberts has suggested some of the lacrosse players were trying to push a drink on your daughter and the second dancer and that maybe a date rape drug was slipped in her drink. What do you believe?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: I believe that.
COSBY: The pictures of the two lacrosse players have now been all over the news. Now that they‘ve been charged. Is she sure that these two boys were involved in the alleged attack?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: According to what she told me, she‘s pretty sure, yes.
COSBY: Is she very sure or just pretty sure?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: I think she‘s very sure.
COSBY: We know so far that there has been no DNA connecting your daughter to the boys. Can you explain how that could have happened and how the rape could have happened?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Well, they used a broom on her. If they used a broom then there wouldn‘t be no DNA.
COSBY: How do you know your daughter was raped with a broom?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Well, I heard it through the news and through some people and then she told me afterwards because she didn‘t want me to know that part.
COSBY: So she is telling you she was raped with a broom by multiple boys, is that correcting?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes. She also said that they madder her do oral sex on her too.
COSBY: So she is saying that she is raped with a broom and then she was asked to perform oral sex?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes.
COSBY: And she is sure of that?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes.
COSBY: Some family members who we‘ve spoke to, like her cousin say they‘re getting death threats. Have you heard that, that any family members are getting that?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes, I have. As a matter of fact, Jackie told me.
COSBY: The cousin?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes, uh-huh.
COSBY: And what kind of calls did she get? Were they threatening?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: Yes, well, they were saying she was a stupid (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and I can‘t remember what else they said.
COSBY: And who do you think is making a call like that?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: I don‘t know. I really don‘t.
COSBY: We‘ve heard your daughter has considered dropping the case, that maybe the pressure‘s too much. Is that true?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: She has talked about it. She has talked about it. As a matter of fact, she told me it was getting to be too much on her. She couldn‘t take it. So far she‘s still hanging in there though.
COSBY: Do you think she will continue to hang in there or is the pressure too great?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: I‘m hoping she will hang in there but I know it‘s getting rough on her now.
COSBY: Is it possible she may drop out of the case?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: It‘s possible. It‘s possible. I‘m hoping not but it‘s possible. I‘m praying and hoping that she don‘t.
COSBY: I want to play a little clip for you of the second dancer, Kim Roberts. Because she has come out swinging and done a number of interviews including with me where she really supports your daughter. Let me play this.
KIM ROBERTS, SECOND EXOTIC DANCER: If they‘re innocent, they should have nothing to worry about. They should sit back, relax, brush their shoulders off and feel good. They shouldn‘t have anything to worry about. If the truth was on their side, why are they supporting it with lies?
COSBY: What do you want to say to Kim Roberts, the second dancer, tonight?
ACCUSER‘S FATHER: I just want to say I thank her for doing that and I‘m real grateful and I think she‘s a great woman to come out there and speak like that. I really do. My heart goes out to her. I just wish sometimes she would call me so I could really thank her in person.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And we want to thank the accuser‘s father for doing that interview with us. Let‘s now bring in former sex crime‘s prosecutor Wendy Murphy and also criminal defense attorney David Feige. Wendy, how tough. I just felt so bad for this father to hear these details from his daughter.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Oh, man. And a lot of us speculated that‘s probably why there was no DNA from the boys found on the victim‘s body. It is because they didn‘t use their parts in her parts except for their mouth and that also the likely explanation as I had suspected earlier for why the defense attorneys told us what was in the DNA report to the extent it worked to their advantage but refused to hand the report over to us so that we could actually see what was in there because it probably shows that her DNA did show up on that broom. And what a horrible thing for the father to have to hear and then to have to talk about for the purpose of explaining all the lies the defense has been spinning since day one! Thank goodness he did this but my heartbreaks for him but at least we know the truth about why there was no DNA and people will shut up about saying the absence of DNA proves their innocence. It clearly doesn‘t.
COSBY: And David Feige, remember, these guys have just been charged now. It just rose to the level of indictment.
DAVID FEIGE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not according to Wendy, Rita, according to Wendy, they‘re tried and convicted.
COSBY: Well, David, OK, but now, how do you prove that, if indeed it was a foreign object. We don‘t know if that was seized. How do you prove this?
FEIGE: You know what? Here‘s the thing, Rita. When I grow up, if they give you the answers after the test, it‘s called cheating. It‘s not called, like, some new revelation. The DNA comes back, there is nothing, all of the sudden the story changes. The reality is .
COSBY: Can I say one thing? And I‘ve got to interrupt you there. The story has not changed according to what we‘ve been told. That‘s your interpretation.
FEIGE: Hold on Rita, here‘s the thing, and I think Wendy will back me up on this. When you‘re charged with putting your penis into somebody‘s vagina, that‘s called rape, when you use a broom, it‘s not, it‘s called sodomy. They weren‘t indicted for sodomy, they were indicted for rape. That could be a pretty good sense of what the charge is.
COSBY: Wendy, go ahead.
Wendy? We don‘t have Wendy‘s audio. David?
FEIGE: I was going to say, that‘s irrefutable.
COSBY: Exactly, she was silent for a moment there.
FEIGE: Silence.
COSBY: We never Wendy silent. We‘ll get back to her when we get her audio. Let me get to the other thing, David, while we get back to this point. The mental issues. We know that the father had said that she, for one week he said last summer, spent time for quote, dealing with her nerves. This is a woman we know doesn‘t have a lot of money, has two kids, lots to juggle, he described it, dealing with her nerves.
Does that hurt her if that comes out and is that irrelevant?
FEIGE: Of course it‘s relevant.
COSBY: How is that relevant?
FEIGE: She was in a psychiatric institution and as I understand she‘s been charged before with driving under the influence and by the way, at least one newspaper has reported that she was driving somebody else‘s car, a john, who didn‘t give her permission. Is that relevant, you bet it‘s relevant.
It‘s significant because in this case, very likely scenario, Wendy I‘m sure doesn‘t believe it, she was rolling these guys, just like I suspect she did to the other guy.
COSBY: And of course that‘s not what she says. We‘re going to go to a break. David, we‘re going to get Wendy‘s audio up. Everybody stick with us because we‘re going to have a lot more with David and Wendy when we come back. We‘re also going to take you inside the world of lacrosse. This isn‘t the first time a team has been rocked by sexual allegations, and that‘s not all we have on tap tonight.
Everybody, we‘re going to get the audio to work.
Ahead, sex predators caught in the act, NBC cameras are there as more men try to meet up with underage kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How far did you travel tonight to get her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eighty miles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: But wait until you see what happens to these perverts after the cameras stop rolling.
Plus, new suspects and new questions in the Natalee Holloway case. Should Joran Van der Sloot‘s name be cleared? His attorney tells us how he is now fighting back against Natalee‘s family.
Plus a parent‘s worst nightmare. A two-year old girl disappears from her own bed in the middle of the night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A two year old that said she was going to the park.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now police need your help finding her, but why have they called off the search? That‘s ahead on LIVE & DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCOOL: As you all know the honorable Judge Bailey set a trial date for July 10 in this matter. We look forward to presenting the facts on that date. Before I go I just want to make clear though, however, again, that this incident has been grossly mischaracterized.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that was the defense attorney for Duke rape suspect Collin Finnerty doing double duty today. He‘s defending the lacrosse player‘s assault charges from last year and making it absolutely clear that those charges do not have anything to do with the new allegations of sexually assaulting an exotic dancer.
Back with us again now is former sex crimes prosecutor Wendy Murphy who O think we have the audio from and criminal defense attorney David Feige. Wendy, I‘ve got to get you to respond because David made a point. He said in this case, if, indeed it was a broom and other object that the father says she was raped by they would have been charged with sodomy vs. rape. What‘s your response?
MURPHY: That‘s not true. They are charged under exactly the right section if an object was used. Sodomy describes part of your body with the object goes in in some states there‘s no question that they‘re charged under the correct statute if in fact objects were used. It was oral, anal and vaginal penetration. That‘s what they‘re charged with. I don‘t see what the big mystery is. I couldn‘t hear him, by the way, and it‘s easy to win a debate when your opponent is deaf.
COSBY: Wendy, I did tried try to challenge him so I held my own for you.
MURPHY: I‘m sure you did. I‘m sure you did, Rita, but I think I would have been .
COSBY: Let me also talk about her mental history. Because the father did say to us that she spent a week at a facility dealing with her nerves. This is a woman who doesn‘t have a lot of money, has two kids, juggling a lot of things. School. Is that going to come into play? Is the defense going to use that against her?
MURPHY: I don‘t know why we‘re talking about it.
COSBY: The defense is talking about it.
MURPHY: Why are we talking about her drinking problem? That‘s right. The defense dumped completely irrelevant false information in a document that they filed with the court so that the media would get sucked into this conversation about her irrelevant personally history.
FEIGE: But it‘s true.
MURPHY: You stop. You‘ve had plenty of air time in the previous section. Let me say something.
FEIGE: Your hysteria is overwhelming all of this.
MURPHY: No, the defense attorney dumped lies into the courtroom so the media will put the lies out into the court of public opinion is not exactly news.
FEIGE: You know what? If all you‘ve got .
MURPHY: This is from the Kobe Bryant playbook. What was the biggest lie there David?
FEIGE: . is to attack defense lawyers rather than talk about the evidence, you are on very shaky ground.
MURPHY: Let‘s talk about the true evidence.
FEIGE: All you‘ve got are justifications and explanations. That‘s all you‘ve got.
MURPHY: Let‘s talk about the broom and the DNA.
COSBY: Let me interrupt you. Wait a minute, guys. We have sot sound from the district attorney Mike Nifong. Of course, remember, the election is coming right up. There was political debate with all the different candidates and some other folks and he was asked specifically, remember, we heard from the father that there as some pressure for her to drop the case, that it is possible because there is so much pressure on her. The district attorney was asked will she drop the case and this is what he just said. We just got the sound in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE NIFONG, DURHAM DISTRICT ATTORNEY: There‘s realistically no way that anybody can try a rape case without victim. It‘s just not like to happen that way. But I don‘t anticipate that‘s going to be the issue. I anticipate the victim will be there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: David, do you think this case is going forward?
FEIGE: No. Of course I don‘t think it‘s going forward. Nor do I think it should go forward.
But by the way, the district attorney is wrong. He can issue a subpoena. He can get a material witness order, he can force her to testify but he won‘t and he won‘t because it‘s wrong.
COSBY: Wendy, do you think the case is going to be dropped? You just heard the D.A. say it‘s going forward.
MURPHY: It absolutely should not be dropped and she should be subpoenaed. David and I agree about this. Look, if this was a predatory child rapist and the rich white defendants wanted to pay the poor victim‘s family to make the kid take a dive, do you think we‘d let that happen or would we call that corruption and obstruction of justice and would we not prosecute those people who tried to pay off witnesses in a criminal case so that the thing goes away?
FEIGE: It doesn‘t surprise me at all.
MURPHY: We might see this case go away but if we do, it‘s because of corruption. Not because there is no case.
FEIGE: Come on! What basis do you possibly have you have for that, Wendy? What basis do you have for that?
MURPHY: Any victim who has to choose between getting her butt kicked by defense attorneys who have no ethical standards and testifying in a court of law that we have a system that tolerates payoffs because of that forced choice is unconscionable.
FEIGE: Rita, can I respond?
All you have here is a hysterical attack on defense lawyers. What we have here is a prosecutor typical, by the way, of this attitude who simply cannot be skeptical of their own complainants. Once someone anoints themselves a victim, it‘s game over for Wendy and her ilk and that‘s wrong.
COSBY: Let me talk about the game on both sides.
MURPHY: Prosecutors bring charges .
COSBY: Wait a minute. Collin Finnerty was in court today. Separate case but let me put up some of the records on this case because the question is it fair game on both sides?
FEIGE: Of course.
COSBY: Hold on, guys. Let me show. This is the suspect‘s prior arrest. This is a DC case.
“Records say that the victim told them to stop calling him gay or other derogatory names. When the victim tried to walk away, the three men attacked him, busting his lip and bruising his chin.”
These charges are serious. In fact, let me show he was given so far 9:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. curfew. Report weekly by telephone to the court officer and also avoid any place where alcohol is consumed or sold.
Wendy, how close should of an eye are they keeping on this guy and should this be under - her background is fair game, isn‘t his?
MURPHY: What a good boy he is. The fact is this is a guy who thumbs his nose at the law. Could care less that he was supposed to be minding his business. Otherwise he is going to get in trouble. And he‘s a guy who just happens to have a reputation and a demonstrated history of picking on disenfranchised people, whether it‘s race, gender or sexuality. Obviously this is a guy who thinks wealthy white boys are better than the rest of the world. And that‘s a pattern of conduct. It‘s fair game in this case.
COSBY: David, fair time go ahead.
FEIGE: That‘s complete nonsense. First of all, she‘s the one with the criminal record, not him. He had been diverted. So he hasn‘t even been adjudicated yet. But first, I‘m an advocate of consistency. It‘s relevant for both. You‘re going to see both sides of this coin played, the only difference is Wendy simply cannot take the fair situation.
MURPHY: They don‘t sit on equal moral ground. He‘s accused of a crime. She‘s presumed to be victimized. Get over this!
FEIGE: And he is likely innocent and she may in fact be (inaudible).
You don‘t know!
COSBY: We‘re going have tow back on to continue this. We‘re going to be arguing all day. So how has this case affected America‘s fastest growing sport? I‘m sure it‘s emotional there as well as it is with Wendy and David. Let‘s bring in the commissioner of the National Lacrosse League Jim Jennings and also with us a writer with “Inside Lacrosse” magazine, Paul Caulfield.
Paul, I understand you want to talk about the broom that the father said that how this happened.
PAUL CAULFIELD, “INSIDE LACROSSE MAGAZINE”: Yes, I do. Thank you for having me on. This wasn‘t a topic I was going to address but it‘s very important that people understand you have the indictment on the Internet, you have the affidavit on the Internet and people can look at that. With the indictment that the prosecutor had, he had three choices, aiding and abetting which he chose both for rape one and sex offense one. But he also had two other choices. He could go with serious physical injury having occurred during the rape or using a dangerous instrument or a weapon. Now, it‘s very interesting to note what he didn‘t choose. He didn‘t choose serious physical injury as a element and he didn‘t choose a dangerous instrument as an element.
COSBY: Fair enough point.
CAULFIELD: And it needs to be pointed out that a prosecutor can perceive under one, two, and three different types of theories. The absence of the theories shows the absence of weapon or dangerous instrument being used and I don‘t think that the level of injury is going to rise to serious physical injury and here‘s why.
COSBY: Paul you have to hurry because .
CAULFIELD: I know. But here‘s the point. The theories that are out there regardless, broom or otherwise, these theories are so damaging and that they‘ve created such an invasion of privacy of not only the victim but also the 46 players.
COSBY: OK, Paul, I have to cut you off. Because we‘ve got to give equal time to Jim but I also have to say it‘s not just a theory, this is just the father hearing from daughter. Again, of course, the facts remain to be looked into. Whether it happened or not. It‘s not someone saying the father passing on her words. Just allegations at this point. Jim, let me bring you in because the reason we all support you is—damaging to the sport and one thing that Paul did just talk, John, how is it affecting the sport in general and how damaging?
JIM JENNINGS, NATIONAL LACROSSE LEAGUE: Well, it‘s an unfortunate incident and we would much rather see the sport portrayed in a different light as now when you just showed lacrosse clips. This is the most lacrosse clips that‘s shown on national television probably over the last month.
COSBY: And how severe do you think is the impact trickling down?
JENNINGS: I can tell you that I think it affects every lacrosse person. Whether it‘s a coach or player. This is a very tight-knit community. The lacrosse people from pro level all the way down to grade school level take this sport very seriously and they don‘t like seeing it on national television portrayed in this way.
We are players. We have over 300 professional lacrosse players who are the best lacrosse players in the world and these guys are hard-working people. They averaged $14,000 a year playing lacrosse. So they all have other jobs. They play in front of 18,000 people on Saturday night and Monday morning they go to work.
COSBY: This is not unfortunately the first time - there are a lot of great lacrosse players out there, I will definitely vouch for that. St. John‘s in 1990, this is not the first time the sport unfortunately has been rocked by scandals.
In some ways some similarities, I was surprised, a black female claimed she was sexually assaulted in an off campus house, she accused five white lacrosse players, in that case something different here happened, one player copped a plea, testified against the other suspects, they were acquitted and later one admitted in a plea bargain that the accuser‘s story was true.
Is it possible many this case the lacrosse season ended there, 96 to ‘05 is it possible that could happen here at Duke in reaction no matter where this goes?
JENNINGS: I‘m not familiar what happened in Duke and the court of law is going to that one way or the other. I can tell you the case that happened in 1990 and this case happened in 2006.
COSBY: Are there similarities between St. John‘s and Duke?
JENNINGS: I don‘t think so. It‘s a 16-year span. I can tell you that our sport on the professional level in particular that we have less incidents than any pro sports out there including basketball, hockey .
COSBY: Even though a lot of these players had some minor infraction.
They did. They event reinstated some issues against them.
JENNINGS: I think they‘re minor. If you look at those instances and those charges against these players, they‘re very minor. Plus, if you look at our sport versus all the other sport, you‘ll find out that much, much less these things happen.
COSBY : And Paul, you know some of the players. How are they doing? How are the families doing? Because no matter whatever comes of this, say the charges get dropped, these poor guys are going to live with this the rest of their lives.
CAULFIELD: I coached one of them and I don‘t want to overplay that because I coached one of them. I know one family who helped out a brother of mine but I can tell you about the communities they come from and I can tell you what‘s the feedback I‘m getting along with Bob Carpenter the publisher of “Inside Lacrosse,” the typecasting that‘s going on of these 46 young men under this theory that the connotations of all the negative connotations of wealth, that they‘re rich white rapists bound by silence.
This is nonsense. It has to be noted that this silence could be
occurring because the D.A.‘s theory might just be a theory
COSBY: And, you guys, that is going to have to be the last word.
And, of course, everybody, we are going to stay on top of the Duke rape case. And we‘re going to bring you any details as soon as they become available. The story keeps twisting and turning. And we will continue to follow it wherever it leads.
And, still ahead, everybody, Internet predators back on the prowl. You will be surprised to see that, this time, they‘re traveling to small-town America to meet underage kids.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “TO CATCH A PREDATOR”)
CHRIS HANSEN, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Tell me what you do for a living.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I‘m a teacher.
HANSEN: And what grade do you teach?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixth grade.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: It is the powerful hidden camera investigation that is revealing the dangerous world of online predators. Tomorrow night, “Dateline NBC” will once again air “To Catch a Predator,” this time targeting small-town America. In the series, predators prowling the Internet think they‘re meeting with a teenager for sex, but indeed are confronted by cameras, questions and eventually police.
You won‘t believe the identities of some of the men.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “TO CATCH A PREDATOR”)
HANSEN: Why don‘t you just tell me what you do for a living.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I‘m a teacher.
HANSEN: And what grade do you teach?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixth grade.
HANSEN: Sixth grade. So, you teach kids about the same age as the girls you were coming to see?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And joining me now live is the man you saw there, “Dateline”‘s Chris Hansen. And also with us is Chief Hilton Daniels of Fort Myers Police Department. He‘s on the phone.
And, Chris, let me start with you. And I want to play another clip. You encountered a lot of men. And it‘s just so surprising how many continue to fall for this and who continue to do this just horrible activity.
Let me play another little clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “TO CATCH A PREDATOR”)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is first.
HANSEN: This is your first time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And I told—I‘m like, I shouldn‘t do that.
It is also against my—my religion.
HANSEN: It‘s against your religion.
But you also say in the next breath, “Have you ever seen a ‘blank‘?” meaning penis.
HANSEN: Uh-huh.
HANSEN: “I have on the Internet,” she says.
Then, you say, “So, do you want to see mine?”
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not good.
HANSEN: I mean, it sure seems like you knew what you were talking about here, and you knew what you wanted from this 15-year-old girl.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Chris it—it‘s amazing. And I‘m sure your jaw just drops.
What shocked you the most about what some of these guys said as why they were there?
HANSEN: Well, you know, you have the excuses, Rita, as you have heard before. These guys are surprised. They will first try to tell you that they really were not there to have sex with the girl or the boy. They were just going to meet with them. They were going to talk. They were worried about their safety. They were going to be their mentor.
And, as we get into the questions, the stories slowly fall apart. And, suddenly, you know, in many cases, we get these guys admitting that, in fact, they were there and up to no good.
What surprises me and what we saw both in Ohio and in Fort Myers, Florida, is that a lot of these guys have actually seen these past stories. They have watched them. They have talked to their friends about them. But their compulsion, their addiction moves them to show up anyway.
COSBY: And...
HANSEN: But we had...
COSBY: ... you know, Chris, I—I also...
HANSEN: ... numerous cases where they have seen it before.
COSBY: You know, in the video, though we are just seeing here with you, the guy was actually buttoning his pants there on the air with you.
You know, some of these guys go—you know, go such a long distance, you know, even to—to show up, which is stunning. And I want to play another clip about that just that is surprising, the efforts that they go to, the lengths they go to, to get to this house.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “TO CATCH A PREDATOR”)
HANSEN: How far did you travel tonight to get here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eighty miles.
HANSEN: Eighty miles?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HANSEN: From what city?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fort Wayne.
HANSEN: Fort Wayne, Indiana?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HANSEN: So, you traveled 80 miles, from Fort Wayne, Indiana. What is that, a two-hour drive?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just about.
HANSEN: Just about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HANSEN: To come here to hang out and drink alcohol and whatever else with a 13-year-old girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I realize I made—coming here was a mistake. But good thing that it didn‘t progress to nothing further.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Chris, what possesses someone to travel that far for this? Are they that obsessed?
HANSEN: Well, you—you—you see, as you talk to these guys, and the great lengths that they—they take to get to these locations, how addicted they actually are to this sort of activity, the compulsion that they have.
I don‘t think these guys wake up in the morning, Rita, and say, OK,
today I‘m going to ruin my life. But they—you know, they start with the
the pornographic Web sites. It moves to the chats in these chat rooms.
And, suddenly, it doesn‘t do it for them anymore. And—and the only thing that will satisfy this urge is to actually bring it to a meeting with a 12-, 13-, 14-, or 15-year-old. And that‘s when you see these guys show up.
COSBY: You know, and they have some pretty bad excuses. I want to show another clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “TO CATCH A PREDATOR”)
HANSEN: So, why would you go into that room to meet a girl?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn‘t. I did not. That‘s the thing. I have never—I have no interest in any kind of activity like that.
HANSEN: Really?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. None.
HANSEN: So—I‘m confused, though. So, if you don‘t have any interest in that sort of activity, why, then, chat up a 14-year-old girl and come to visit her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am lonely. That is the bottom line.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Chief, when you see this, have you heard every excuse in the book?
HILTON DANIELS, FORT MYERS, FLORIDA, POLICE CHIEF: Of course I have.
And you‘re talking about the distance traveled, the furthest distance we had was 223 miles.
COSBY: And what...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: What happens to these guys? You know, after you see them on TV like this, do they get prosecuted? What—what happens?
DANIELS: Sure.
Well, as soon as they walked out of the door, they were greeted by Fort Myers police officers and arrested. And, then, they were taken to the police station, where there were interviews. And the evidence was confiscated. And, then, they were sent over to first appearance, where the judge issued bonds. And the bonds went anywheres from $30,000, $50,000. Actually, there was three of them with no bond.
COSBY: And what are they charged with, Chief?
DANIELS: They are—solicitation of a minor.
COSBY: And what could they face?
DANIELS: Anywheres—depending upon their criminal history, they could go anywheres from probation to three to five years.
COSBY: Three to five years.
You know, one of the things, Chris Hansen, they keep talking about meeting on—on Internet, like MySpace.com. I want to show another clip, where one predator says he met the girl on MySpace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, “TO CATCH A PREDATOR”)
HANSEN: And how did you find this girl, Katie (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MySpace.
HANSEN: MySpace. And what is it about MySpace that attracts you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can meet people.
HANSEN: Young people?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People.
HANSEN: Presumably, at college, there are girls your own age.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: True.
HANSEN: Why go after a 13-year-old? That‘s seventh grade, by the way. I mean, help me out here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed interested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Just seemed interested.
You know, Chris, when you hear about this, why are places like MySpace and other Internet sites like that luring more kids in? Is that more tempting, you know, the Internet, for both the predator and the child, unfortunately,?
HANSEN: Well, MySpace is a—is a social networking spot that attracts kids, because they can be creative. They can talk about their favorite music. They can model clothes, in some cases. They can have buddy lists and—and communicate with their friends, and talk about the music they like to listen to.
But the predators know this. And the predators have accounts on MySpace. And—and we have seen really shocking examples of predators even, in some cases, posing as kids, and trying to trick girls into, you know, meeting with them or having a relationship developed.
And—and you really got to teach your kids that it‘s not just their friends who are looking at their MySpace Web site. There are predators out there specifically going there, knowing that kids, at a vulnerable age, are giving away personal information, and pouring their hearts out on this Web site.
COSBY: Chris Hansen, thank you very much.
And, also...
HANSEN: My pleasure.
COSBY: ... Chief, thank you very much.
And, everybody, be sure to watch “Dateline”‘s “To Catch a Predator” with Chris, and, unfortunately, some more of these guys who are going in. Again, it‘s “To Catch a Predator IV” tomorrow on “Dateline.”
And, still ahead, everybody, Joran van der Sloot‘s attorney tells us why he‘s using our show to clear his client‘s name.
And, later, police need your help tonight finding a missing 2-year-old girl who disappeared from her own bed. That‘s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And, just ahead on LIVE & DIRECT, has Joran van der Sloot been unfairly targeted in the Natalee Holloway investigation? His attorney tells us what he‘s doing now to clear his client‘s name. You may be surprised.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And, tonight, a bizarre twist to tell you about in the Natalee Holloway investigation.
While suspect Geoffrey van Cromvoirt is now out of jail, it looks like the son of Deputy Police Chief Gerald Dompig may have helped put him there.
Meantime, the prime suspect in the Holloway case simply refuses to back down from a civil lawsuit filed against him. Just hours ago, lawyers for Joran van der Sloot went on the offensive, demanding the case be thrown out of New York.
Live and direct is Joran van der Sloot‘s U.S. defense attorney, Joe Tacopina.
Joe, you‘re coming out swinging. Why?
JOE TACOPINA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: Well, I have a—an innocent client.
Factually, we‘re in the right. And, legally, we‘re in the right. This case does not belong in New York, period. And—and the law is on our side almost 100 percent. And the facts are on our side almost 100 percent.
So, we‘re coming out swinging. And this is—you know, the days of Joran sitting back and taking this are—are long behind us. And—and, you know, this is just our—our first salvo, I think, Rita.
COSBY: Well, you‘re quite fiery in it, Joe, as usual. And I want to show a clip, because you even name this show. You talk about a guest who was on this show, Joe Mammana, and some of the things that he said about your client.
Let‘s—let‘s take a listen, and I will get you to respond.
TACOPINA: Mmm-hmm.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE MAMMANA, PHILANTHROPIST: These three little pieces of trash over there, OK, that gang-raped her daughter, they need to experience a gang rape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And Joe Mammana further says—let me show this to you—what he further says, Joe, he says: “They‘re punks. And they‘re cowards. And I still feel that way today.” That‘s a quote that he gave us today.
What do you make of those comments, Joe?
TACOPINA: We will deal with Joe Mammana and his—his—his—his style of being a philan—being a philanthropist by threatening people with gang rape at a later date, Rita.
COSBY: What are you talking about, Joe? Are you talking suing?
TACOPINA: But—but let me—let...
COSBY: Or what are you talking...
TACOPINA: Let me tell you why it‘s relevant to this proceeding and these papers.
COSBY: Well, can you answer? Can you answer me first? Why? Why?
What are you talking about doing?
TACOPINA: Yes. I think anyone who threatens someone with gang rape and calls someone a rapist is going to have to be held accountable for those words.
Now, when—when—the reason it‘s in these motion papers, your transcript is in these motion papers, is because one of the factors the plaintiff seeks to have this case tried outside of Aruba and—and kept in the New York courts, Rita, is because they—they claim there‘s this fear of Aruba, you know, that hostile island.
And—and—and our position is that this is a manufactured fear, and—and it‘s manufactured because, you know, the—the claim threats, including Miss Twitty‘s claimed threats that she received, which she say occurred in September of ‘05, she returned to that island in November of ‘05.
So, clearly, the threats didn‘t keep her from going back there then and—and shouldn‘t for this—purpose of this proceeding. Moreover, she has been—been—told a hotel manager at the place she was staying, at the Wyndham Hotel, Rob Smith, that she had just been threatened.
And—and Rob Smith—and immediately responded by saying, well, don‘t worry, Ms. Twitty. We have 450 video cameras. Let‘s go see the surveillance tapes of who threatened you.
And, immediately, she recanted and said, well, no, not this hotel.
COSBY: Now, Joe, I have a question.
(CROSSTALK)
TACOPINA: Now, the reason why Joe Mammana‘s quote is in there and your transcript...
COSBY: Yes, go ahead, real quick.
TACOPINA: ... is in there, real quick, is because, unlike unsubstantiated, manufactured fears, here‘s a guy who—who is part of the Holloway-Twitty camp, who has donated money to them, who has gone to Aruba with them, has been on your show with Ms. Twitty, is—is now threatening to gang rape my client if he comes to the United States, another reason this case belongs to Aruba.
COSBY: Now, Joe, what are you—Beth Holloway Twitty herself—this is Natalee‘s mother—has also said that your client raped her daughter. That‘s obviously not a popular thing to do, is go after Beth Holloway Twitty.
TACOPINA: Well, you know, I‘m not trying to win a popularity contest.
What I‘m trying to do, Rita, is, you know, pursue justice for Joran van der Sloot and his family.
COSBY: Are you considering suing...
TACOPINA: And I will tell you this.
Just—just turn—turn the tables for a second and imagine being the parents of an 18-year-old boy who did not do anything to deserve what he has got, who didn‘t—who had nothing to do with her disappearance, or her death, if that is what happened, and—and—and to be called a predator, a murderer, and a rapist. Be—put yourself in those shoes for a second.
And, as horrific as what happened to the Holloway family is, this is
just as horrific for the van der Sloot family, in the sense that they have
their lives have been ruined. And...
COSBY: But, Joe...
TACOPINA: And I don‘t mean to minimize...
COSBY: Joe, real quick, though...
TACOPINA: ... what has happened to the Holloways.
COSBY: ... are you planning on—on suing them, too? Is that an option for you, real quick?
TACOPINA: No, no. We are not—look, we have a lawsuit.
If this lawsuit is not dismissed, we will file counterclaims. We are not looking to—to prolong this tragedy for them or—or for my client any longer than—than we have to. I hope the lawsuit is dismissed. And, if that‘s the case, I‘m—I‘m sure the Holloway-Twitty family and the van der Sloot family will have no litigation in the future.
COSBY: And, of course, most importantly, we hope we get some answers to what happened to Natalee Holloway.
TACOPINA: Absolutely.
COSBY: Joe, thank you very much.
And, everybody, there‘s a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight.
Let‘s check in now with Tucker Carlson to see what is coming up on
“THE SITUATION.”
Tucker, what do you have?
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON”: A whole bunch, Rita.
We will have the very latest on the Duke rape investigation—some of the players not even charged, not even in the headlights of the DA, now being charged for other previous minor misdemeanors, like public urination and noise violations. Railroaded. Railroaded. Railroaded.
And ABC News tonight runs video of a man beating the tar out of his stepdaughter. It‘s a shocking video. We will show it to you in just a minute. Some are saying ABC should have called the police when they found this incident on tape. They didn‘t. The debate rages. We will mull it over.
COSBY: And we will be watching.
Tucker...
CARLSON: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: ... thank you very much. And I know you will be doing a good job mulling it over. Thanks so much, Tucker.
And, still ahead, a desperate search for a 2-year-old girl who went missing from her own home. Is a language barrier hurting the search? Who are police zeroing in on?
And, later, police are calling him the reluctant robber. So, why are they so worried about him striking again?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And a toddler missing this hour in Tennessee. An Amber Alert is issued for 28-year-old (sic) Analyce Guerra. She was last seen Sunday evening, fast asleep in her home in the small town of Smyrna, just outside of Nashville.
But when her mother went to check on her early Monday morning, Analyce had vanished from her bed. And, today, in what may seem like an odd move, police have suspended the search for the little girl, after interviewing her parents.
We get the very latest in the investigation from Sergeant Ken Hampton of the Smyrna, Tennessee, Politics Department.
Sergeant, why did you suspend the search?
SERGEANT KEN HAMPTON, SMYRNA, TENNESSEE, POLICE DEPARTMENT: We suspended the search we had focused on a two-mile radius area for several hours. Five different searches of the same particular area made us feel like that we have covered all the ground that we possibly could at that point in time. And we—we changed our focus.
COSBY: You know, Sergeant, what have the parents told you? And can they be ruled out as suspects?
HAMPTON: As far as details of the parents, they have stuck by their story of the 2-year-old getting up and unlocking the door and leaving.
We have not made them suspects at—at the time. We‘re still trying to interview them and—and several other family members.
COSBY: You know, you‘re still interviewing them. I can read between the lines that they‘re not ruled out.
Let me—let me put up the timeline. We know that the mother puts the girl to bed. She gets up to drink some water, find Analyce‘s bed empty. The house door is unlocked, according to her, and also that Analyce stated that she was going to the park. Of course, police are called soon afterwards. And, then, we know, as—as you told us now, the search is called off.
Is there a possibility that she didn‘t let herself out of the house?
Can you rule that out?
HAMPTON: We cannot rule it out. I mean, we‘re not—you know, we‘re not getting tunnel vision. We‘re leaving all the options open at this time.
COSBY: And, real quick, how is the community doing?
HAMPTON: The community has been very supportive. We probably had 150, 175 volunteers to come out and help with the search yesterday, a lot of donations, as far as food with—with volunteers. And they have been very supportive of us in—in our efforts.
COSBY: Well, Sergeant, we hope that you get some answers.
And, everybody, police need your help. You just heard. If you have any information on the disappearance of little Analyce Guerra, please call the Smyrna Police Department at 615-459-6644 or 1-800-TBI-FIND.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Tonight, “Caught By Cosby.”
If at first, you don‘t succeed, try again.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: That‘s the motto of one Florida man dubbed the reluctant robber.
Authorities say the man you see on the surveillance tape has struck two drugstores in Pompano Beach, Florida. But all didn‘t go well during his first robbery attempt. After demanding money from the cashier, the clerk simply ignored him and closed the register. So, he gave up and he walked out.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: But he hit a second drugstore, this time using a gun. That clerk cooperated, but police believe that the reluctant robber is getting bolder and may strike again.
And that does it for me on LIVE & DIRECT, everybody. I‘m Rita Cosby.
“THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON” starts right now.
Hey, Tucker.
CARLSON: Rita Cosby, thank you.
COSBY: Thank you.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
END
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