Guests: Henry Irby, Marcus Jones, Ashley Summers, Clint Van Zandt, Peter Davenport, Dan Aykroyd, Michael Luckman, Nancy Weber, Bill Hughes
RITA COSBY, HOST: And first tonight, everybody, late-breaking developments after an Alabama attorney abducted at gunpoint has been found safe and sound.
Sandra Eubank Gregory was kidnapped this morning in broad daylight near her apartment building in Birmingham, Alabama. Police released this videotape after a local surveillance camera recorded the entire incident. The abduction came to a dramatic end only hours ago, after police surrounded an area hotel.
Let‘s go immediately to reporter Chris Pollone with NBC station WVTM.
Chris, first of all, tell us about how she was taken hostage. Chris, can you hear me? I think we just lost Chris Pollone. We‘re hoping to get him on in a moment. And as soon as we get him, we‘ll get him back on.
But we have somebody else who obviously knows the situation very well.
We have Lieutenant Henry Irby with the Birmingham police department.
Lieutenant, why don‘t you walk us through real quick what happened, how she was abducted?
LT. HENRY IRBY, BIRMINGHAM POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes. At approximately 8:32 a.m. this morning, Ms. Gregory was abducted by gunpoint at 2nd Avenue and Richard Arrington Junior Boulevard North.
COSBY: And how did it happen?
IRBY: She was then...
COSBY: You know, we‘re looking at the video. It‘s incredible. How did he walk up to her? He was armed, right? Give us the background.
IRBY: Right. He was already armed, obviously, either insisted that he had a weapon or presented the weapon. That‘s unknown at this time. She was made to get into the vehicle and drive off with the suspects.
COSBY: And do me a favor, Lieutenant, hang with us, because we I want to bring in—we understand we do have a reporter, Chris Pollone, with us now.
Chris, we had a couple audio problems there at the top. The lieutenant was describing to us how she was surrounded in the parking lot. Do we know where he took her from there?
CHRIS POLLONE, WVTM-TV: Well, Rita, from what we understand, throughout the course of the day—that happened about 8:30 morning. Throughout the course of the day, we‘ve been able to confirm that the suspect did take this lawyer, Sandy Gregory, to several ATMs in the Birmingham area and he made her withdraw money.
And so there was a period of time from about 8:30 in the morning to about 2:30 this afternoon, when her car was finally discovered, that it was believed—and there was a lot of scanner traffic—indicating that she was going to banks around the area, and that‘s what really set up this dragnet and really seemed to start police in earnest looking for her in every part of the city.
COSBY: And then how did they finally close in on her and the suspect?
POLLONE: Well, that‘s a good question, and Henry Irby can probably answer that a little better than I.
But from what happened on our end, around 2:30 this afternoon, someone who had heard the description of the vehicle actually spotted it in a housing project here in southwest Birmingham. They called police. It brought out a tremendous number of state and federal officials and county officials.
They examined the vehicle. They actually brought out a SWAT team and started going door to door, searching for this suspect, searching for the victim in this case. There was nothing in the vehicle that indicated that something violent had taken place. We were told that just her purse was located in it.
And after about two or three hours, around 5:00, 5:30 this afternoon, federal U.S. marshals left that scene where the car was, and we had been told that they were heading to a hotel in Homewood, Alabama, which is not more than four or five miles away.
It turned out the first hotel they went to was incorrect. But just a short time later, they went to a Comfort Inn. They surrounded—went outside a door. They tried to break down the door, and that‘s where the suspect and the victim were found.
It should be interesting over the next couple of days to find out exactly how that information was developed that they were indeed in that hotel, though we‘ve heard that good informants and good police work led to them being found this afternoon.
COSBY: Chris, hold on. I want to bring in Lieutenant Irby.
Lieutenant, what was the good police work that sort of led to the hotel?
What was the tip?
IRBY: Yes, absolutely. I would like to say that the Birmingham police department, along with federal, state, county and other municipalities throughout the city, helped in bringing this resolution to a peaceful end.
I would also like to say the citizens of Birmingham and also the local media played an important role in getting that information out, which led to leads.
As we worked those leads, they were slowly developed, and then we found the suspect and the victim in one hotel room. The victim was secured, treated by paramedics, and eventually transported to a local hospital. The suspect, of course, was taken into custody; however, he has not been formally charged.
COSBY: Now, do you expect that he will be charged and with what?
IRBY: At this time, kidnapping is one possible charge. The Birmingham police department homicide unit is presenting a case or building a case to present to the D.A.‘s office for review.
COSBY: You know, Lieutenant, we know that the car—we were just heard from Chris Pollone, our reporter there—that the car was found four to five miles away from the hotel. What was sort of the—was there a tip? Was there a bystander? What led to that hotel?
IRBY: Well, actually, there was a tip. We had a concerned citizen who told us the approximate whereabouts of where Ms. Gregory and the suspect might be. However, we had to work those leads, which eventually came to a peaceful resolution.
COSBY: And when do you think charges are going to be filed, sir?
IRBY: It‘s hard to say at this time. Again, the homicide detectives will present the case to the Jefferson County D.A.‘s office, and we‘ll go from there.
COSBY: Chris Pollone, what kind of condition do you know that she‘s in tonight, this attorney, and pretty incredible that she‘s alive?
POLLONE: It really is incredible. From what we understand, when police went into the room, she was tied or bound in some way underneath a sheet, but one of the federal marshals who was there said that she was in surprisingly good shape. She didn‘t seem physically harmed, and her spirits were actually kind of up for somebody who had gone through such an ordeal.
COSBY: Do we believe, Chris, at this point, that it was a random crime?
POLLONE: Most people we talked to believe that this was a random crime. She does practice family law, and so she does get involved in family disputes. But most of the attorneys, most of her friends, some of the judges here really believe that she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
She was in her parking garage in downtown Birmingham and, as the video shows, did not seem to give any indication that she knew who this attacker was.
COSBY: Pretty incredible stuff. Chris Pollone, thank you very much, and Lieutenant Irby, great job on your part and the department‘s part. Thank you both very much.
Well, needless to say, family and friends of Sandra Gregory are breathing a sigh of relief now that their loved one has been found safe. LIVE & DIRECT tonight is Sandra‘s boss, attorney Marcus Jones.
Marcus, first of all, your reaction? You must be so relieved when you heard the news.
MARCUS JONES, SANDRA EUBANK GREGORY‘S BOSS: It‘s hard to say what kind of relief you have when you hear something like that, somebody you‘re close to, you work with, and it‘s a great person and a great mother.
COSBY: Absolutely.
JONES: It‘s a happy ending.
COSBY: How did you find out the news that, first of all, she was taken—as we‘re looking at this surveillance video—and then how did you find out the news that she was rescued?
JONES: We got a call this morning. And I was in court, and homicide division had moved into our office and were questioning and looking for information on Ms. Gregory, Sandy, as I‘m going to call her. And we stayed with them an hour and provided information.
And this Birmingham police department—and I don‘t think we can say enough what they did today. We just don‘t give our police department praise as often as we should, but they got together and put a dragnet. And I think they looked over the entire city and looked at every lead.
They had every police department in this area, from sheriff‘s departments at Homewood to other municipalities, working with them. And then, late this afternoon, walked outside, and I got a phone call from somebody that was close to me and told me they thought they had the information that she had been found and she was alive.
COSBY: Wow, what a great story, huh? What was your reaction?
JONES: Oh, what a great ending. I‘m holding the tears back right now. It‘s excitement. It‘s joy. It‘s the Lord telling us that he does work miracles with the good department of the Birmingham police, everything came true. We hoped for the best, and we got the best.
COSBY: You know, when we hear, Marcus, as we just heard from the lieutenant that she was found in the room, she was bound—we understand her hands and legs, also covered with a sheet from the suspect. How do you think she would have reacted? We hear that she‘s feisty, she‘s smart. How do you think she reacted in that situation? It must have been frightening for her.
JONES: She reacted like she should have, because she‘s alive tonight.
And her reactions probably saved her and her strength saved her.
COSBY: Yes, what kind of a person is she? Describe her for us, because she seems like a brave, young woman.
JONES: Very courageous. We saw that today, and we‘ve heard that today from stories all day. She‘s a great person. I‘ve worked with her for two years, just a committed person to our profession, to the lawyers here in Birmingham, and to our profession at all.
And she‘s a friend. And I think it‘s been a witnessed by other people that they have talked to her good things about her today. And all these people that stand outside this police department and other places, holding hands and praying, and just saying that we‘re going to have a happy ending, this ending was going to be here.
COSBY: What kind of celebration do you think is going to be in Birmingham tonight? And have you talked to her or her family?
JONES: I have talked to her family on several different occasions, this afternoon since she has been found. And the family is just excited. I mean, I don‘t think words can express this. We‘ve watched your show, and we see what people go through, but until you actually stand in some shoes, and I came pretty close today. It‘s like a family member.
COSBY: What do you plan on saying to her when you talk to her, Marcus?
JONES: Ask her how many days she need off.
(LAUGHTER)
Just let her have off for a few days or a week.
COSBY: You better give her off as much as she needs.
JONES: She‘s got it, you know, just as long as I know she‘s OK, and I do know that. And like I said, things worked out great today.
COSBY: Absolutely. Well, thank you very much, Marcus.
JONES: Thank you.
COSBY: As you said, it‘s nice to have a happy ending to a story like this and that she‘s safe and sound.
JONES: Well, thank you.
COSBY: Thank you very much.
JONES: Well, I appreciate all the interest. Thank you.
COSBY: You‘re welcome. Thank you very much.
And, everyone, this story is still developing. We will stay on it. If we get any other details about this guy, if he‘s officially charged tonight, any more details, also, on Sandy, as well, we‘ll bring them to you later on in the show.
And there‘s also a lot of other news coming up on LIVE & DIRECT. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY (voice-over): Still ahead, the Clemson University bikini killer. We have exclusive clues about the student brutally murdered with her own bathing suit. Is there a killer with a sick fetish on the loose?
And did a real psychic medium help police find another killer by inflicting supernatural pain on the suspect? The police and the psychic join me live with a story that may make you a believer.
And speaking of the supernatural, actor Dan Aykroyd played an alien in
“The Coneheads,” but now he says he believes in UFOs and that you should,
too. He tells me why, coming up, LIVE & DIRECT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM SOUERS, TIFFANY SOUERS‘ FATHER: Tiffany was a girl that deserved
to be on this planet, because she brought—she just didn‘t bring a smile to the planet; she brought great things. She gave of herself more than I want to tell you most people that you and I know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: New details in the search for the killer of Clemson University student Tiffany Souers, viciously strangled to death with a bikini top. Authorities are now suggesting that the killer may still be lurking around somewhere near the crime scene.
With me now is NBC‘s Michelle Hofland who just got back from the coroner‘s office. First, Michelle, what‘s the latest in the investigation?
MICHELLE HOFLAND, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, late today, Rita, the county solicitor here in Greenville, South Carolina, stepped in front of the cameras here at the Greenville County Courthouse very confidently. He‘s told us that they‘ve been talking to a number of witnesses, a number of other people, and he is confident that they are tracking down this killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT ARIAIL, GREENVILLE, S.C., SOLICITOR: I can assure you that there are—there is so much information that‘s been developed in this relatively short period of time by these agencies, and that I feel very confident, with the rate that they are going, that a resolution is certainly achievable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOFLAND: The solicitor, Bob Ariail, will not tell us why he‘s so confident that they‘ll be able to track this guy down soon, because he says state law says he can‘t, and also he doesn‘t want to tip off this murderer.
But he will tell us this: First of all, he believes the killer is still in the area, because of other incidents that have happened similar to this since this murder took place one week ago. It will be one week on Friday.
Not only that, Rita, he tells us that other people have reported similar instances around that apartment complex where Tiffany Souers was murdered last Friday and around Clemson University.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOFLAND: This homemade sign kind of sets the tone for the Pickens County coroner‘s office. In here is the county coroner, Dr. Jim Mahanes.
JIM MAHANES, PICKENS COUNTY CORONER‘S OFFICE: Michelle.
HOFLAND: This is your whole office?
MAHANES: This is it.
HOFLAND: You have, what, two desks here?
MAHANES: Right.
HOFLAND: A couple computers.
MAHANES: Correct.
HOFLAND: And over here you were showing me you have five rows of file cabinets. And what‘s in these?
MAHANES: Right. Well, these are all the deaths that have been investigated by this office going back to the 1970s.
HOFLAND: So all the deaths over four decades. And this one is 2006.
MAHANES: 2006.
HOFLAND: Not very many, but you‘ve had an average of four deaths this year, but usually you only have two or three deaths.
MAHANES: Two to three, that‘s correct.
HOFLAND: Murders a year.
MAHANES: Correct, homicides, correct.
HOFLAND: So when you have a big case like this or any other murder that you have in here, exactly what is your role in that?
MAHANES: Well, most of our work is done in the field. We‘re actually going to the scene of the crime, or the fatality, or the death in the home, or whatever it is, to investigate it, get identification on the body, and collect any forensic evidence and whatnot that we may need, or draw blood for toxicology, and stuff like that, and then make a decision whether there‘s an autopsy‘s needed or any other detail work to be done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HOFLAND: Dr. Mahanes is the county coroner here. He was not allowed
the county solicitor asked him not to tell us specific details about Tiffany‘s autopsy.
But what he did tell us is that the autopsy was conducted and finished within 24 hours after her body was found Friday afternoon, in plenty of time so that her family could fly her body back to St. Louis in time for this evening‘s visitation and tomorrow‘s funeral in Lidu, Missouri (ph).
Now, even though the autopsy was completed last Saturday, he says that the final signed autopsy report will not be finished for another four to six weeks—Rita?
COSBY: Michelle, thank you very much. Please keep us posted. We appreciate it.
So how are Tiffany‘s neighbors reacting to this grisly murder right in their own backyard? With me now is Ashley Summers who lives in Tiffany‘s apartment complex.
Ashley, first of all, how nervous are you this person is still on the loose?
ASHLEY SUMMERS, LIVES IN TIFFANY‘S APARTMENT COMPLEX: I‘m pretty nervous. I mean, I didn‘t find out until several days after the fact and through media coverage, so it was kind of unnerving to see that it could have happened to me, same situation, almost.
COSBY: Now, you say you found out through media coverage. Nobody informed you, none of the management at the apartment complex, not authorities either?
SUMMERS: That is correct. I only found out late Sunday through work when the TVs were on and people came up to me, and even after questioning - - final notification letters weren‘t dispersed to the residents until Tuesday.
COSBY: Have they stepped up security?
SUMMERS: I mean, I‘ve been there all weekend, and I have not seen a single cop car. I mean, I‘ve been working a lot, but I was shocked by the fact that I have not seen any police circling at all.
COSBY: You have not?
SUMMERS: No.
COSBY: Even though today we‘re hearing from the solicitor he‘s basically suggesting that there may have been other incidents in the apartment complex since. Have you heard anything of maybe a peeping tom or someone trying to break into another apartment there in that same complex?
SUMMERS: I have not heard any of this information. I wish I had, because I know several of my friends and other people often keep their doors unlocked because it‘s such a safe environment. And for something like this to happen, it‘s pretty unnerving and sets you back, so you really do not expect it at all.
COSBY: You bet. You know, we talked to Tiffany‘s father last night. I want to play a little clip. He gave us a little perspective of sort of the apartment and what it looked like.
SUMMERS: Well, the apartment building where she was found is set back in the back. My building is adjacent to that. And she actually doesn‘t live on the first floor, but the floor below that, which is considered the terrace.
And looking at the entrance, there‘s only one entrance, whereas the first floor has two entrances. And it‘s not well-lit and backs up to another apartment complex. So, ideally, that would have been the best location. And, unfortunately, it wasn‘t well-patrolled. And there wasn‘t light, so my wishes go out to the family and friends.
COSBY: Absolutely. And, in fact, then we have the father‘s comments. Let me play that, and I‘ll get you to react, but just hold on a second, Ashley. Here‘s the dad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. SOUERS: Tiffany was a very bright and confident person, but she was also somebody that was smart enough to not let just anybody in. And there were two doors to her apartment. I‘m not sure—I don‘t know for a fact that both were locked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Ashley, sort of describe for us the area. Where exactly is her apartment? I understand it‘s a little, what, below the terrace level?
SUMMERS: Well, it‘s considered the terrace level, although there‘s three floors, and then the terrace is below the first floor, and there‘s only a back entrance to that.
COSBY: And, real quickly, construction photos. I understand we‘ve got some pictures of construction going on. These were taken for us. What do you glean from the fact construction crews—is that something that you‘re looking at and that you think authorities should be looking at?
SUMMERS: I mean, there‘s construction going on. I know they‘re redoing painting the buildings and then there‘s also—they just put up new town homes in the complex behind the reserve, so, I mean, I have no idea when it comes to that, but I know there‘s definitely construction going on.
COSBY: Ashley, thank you very much. We appreciate you being with us.
And stay safe. Thank you.
SUMMERS: Thank you.
COSBY: And let me bring, if could, former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt who has been following this case. Clint, first, let me play you a little clip. This is a solicitor, because I want you to read into it. You know what these guys are really saying. Here‘s the solicitor and his comments.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARIAIL: What we‘re focused on right now is the immediate area, Clemson area around her apartment. And I can tell you the reasons for this localized focus that deal with events that have occurred afterwards in the local area, that there‘s no reason to go to Georgia if you think the perpetrator is still in Clemson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, what is he saying, Clint?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Yes, well, Rita, I think this is kind of police talk, investigative talk suggesting that, as you had alluded to earlier, the potential for peeping toms, trespassing, attempted break-ins.
If other type of activities had taken place before, and, as he is now suggesting...
COSBY: After the fact, yes. After the fact.
VAN ZANDT: ... after the fact, number one, that‘s awful, darn brazen to kill somebody and then still do this. So, you know, you got to realize the residents are going to be hyper-vigilant now and they‘re going to be reporting things perhaps that they would have disregarded before, so that may account for some of it.
But, again, you know, a crime like this—normally it‘s somebody either the victim knew or somebody who had seen the victim, somebody in that localized area, so...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Clint, what do you make of the fact that he said he believes it‘s someone still in the area? Do you believe that they probably have someone in mind that they‘re zeroing in on?
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, we‘d like to think so. And if that person is listening, they better be watching their bedroom windows, because I think the cops are right outside.
But I think the reality is, this is the type of crime that‘s more than likely committed by a local resident, somebody in the area who knows the community, who knows this apartment complex, realized the window of opportunity was relatively small. She came home about 10 after 11:00 that night.
COSBY: Yes, in fact, Clint, hold on one second, because I want to put up that time frame, the time line of events. Because, as you point out, she came home at 11:30. She gets dropped off at her apartment from her friends, and then they believe, between 1:00 and 1:30, she was murdered. Her roommate finds her.
Do you believe that we can rule out that it was someone at the bar, or a friend, or something, or do you believe it‘s more someone who just sort of saw her and followed her?
VAN ZANDT: Yes, this is an awful small window of time, so it‘s either someone who saw her out that night and followed her right back to her apartment, or it‘s someone that was in the area of her apartment when she came home. And...
COSBY: What do you make of the fact, Clint, construction? Let me show those photos again, because we just got from some neighbors. They said there‘s been lots of construction just recently, and apparently her apartment, the back door apparently faces right near the site, we‘ve been told, where they‘re doing construction.
Could there be something tied to all these different, new faces coming in and out?
VAN ZANDT: And these are things that the authorities are always going to look at. Who is in the area that is not normally in the area? They‘re going to look at, Rita, the last 24 hours prior to her death and run the time line right up and see who was in that area, who could have seen her, who did she have contact with.
And, as you know, they‘re looking at her cell phone, her laptop, all of these things, too, to try to put it together.
And, of course, there‘s the potential of forensic evidence. If she was sexually assaulted, if, obviously, the killer had hands on with her to choke her to death, used a bikini as a ligature, there‘s the potential of hairs and fibers and other physical evidence. So once they zero in on one or two suspects, they‘ll be able to use the forensic evidence to rule that person in or rule them out.
COSBY: All right, Clint, thank you very much. And, of course, we hope this case will be solved soon.
VAN ZANDT: Absolutely.
COSBY: Thank you.
Still ahead, everybody, could a psychic help find Tiffany‘s killer? Everyone involved in another case said a woman not only helped find the murderer but may have begun his punishment. Here she is, a psychic, and she‘s coming up next.
And also next, actor Dan Aykroyd tells me why he believes in UFOs and why he wants you to believe, too. We‘re going to hear from some experts who say he may be right. That‘s coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: From MSNBC world headquarters, here is Rita Cosby.
COSBY: And tonight on LIVE & DIRECT, we‘re going to look at the unknown, from psychic crime solvers to UFO sightings. People from all walks of life have claimed to have had some kind of close encounter with an alien life form, including actor and comedian Dan Aykroyd.
For the very first time, Aykroyd is sharing his experiences in a new DVD called “Dan Aykroyd: Unplugged on UFOs.” I talked to Dan about the DVD and asked him how he first got interested in UFOs.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN AYKROYD, COMEDIAN: I can tell you the origin of my interest comes from my mother who claims and says she saw a UFO in 1950 in Ottawa. She knew that what she saw above Sparks Street in Ottawa that day was not a conventional aircraft. She said it was like an orb, it hung there in the sky, and then it just kind of winked out and disappeared.
COSBY: Now, Dan, you also say that you‘ve had two encounters yourself. Tell us about them.
AYKROYD: Well, I‘ve seen a high altitude sighting. I was in Martha‘s Vineyard, and I saw two very white, glowing, magnesium disks flying edge to edge in a slow zigzag pattern across the sky at about 100,000 feet, say 20,000 miles an hour. It lasted about a minute. I had three other witnesses with me, including my wife.
Can I say 100 percent it was a craft from another world or another civilization or dimension? Of course not, because they didn‘t come down and shake my hand.
COSBY: You believe that you‘ve been summoned by aliens, right?
AYKROYD: Well, along with 12,000 other people. There have been...
COSBY: And how so? How so?
AYKROYD: Well, I was awoken at night. I didn‘t go outside. But the next day in the paper in the region—in the papers and the media, people were calling into radio stations and talking about this vision in the sky that they had, and how they were compelled to go out of their homes in the Vermont-Quebec-Ontario upstate New York border. Around the mid-‘80s, this was, around—now to be around 1985, ‘86.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have an unidentified flying object.
COSBY: Why do you believe, in all these cases, the U.S. government says, no, they weren‘t UFOs, they have explanations?
AYKROYD: Well, in fact, the U.S. government has been very interested in this for many years. In fact, there have been four separate funded U.S. Air Force and government-funded studies, Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book and the Condon Report.
COSBY: But they have not admitted to the existence, Dan.
AYKROYD: Well, no, they have not, but they‘ve said that 20 percent are unexplained and they can‘t say that definitively that what was seen was a helicopter, a planet, an aircraft, and all of these other conventional explanations.
COSBY: That is, it‘s possible...
AYKROYD: It‘s like weather balloons and swamp gas.
COSBY: But is it possible that it‘s just something else that we cannot explain, not a UFO, just a plane that had a weird—you know, as we‘re looking at video of the DVD, interesting things, but it could also be the shape of a plane, it could be something else other than a UFO?
AYKROYD: Well, it could be, but if you look at some of the photos on there and some of the shapes, you know, there‘s clearly no airfoil. There are no flaps. There are no wings.
COSBY: Dan, do you believe that there‘s a massive government cover-up about UFOs?
AYKROYD: Well, my thought is that there probably is an institution within the U.S. government that, if there is contact with these beings and control over some of these devices, it would rest with this group.
BILL MURRAY, COMEDIAN: He slimed me.
COSBY: Many people remember you from “Ghostbusters,” of course, big, big film. Did that influence you? And do you believe today that UFOs 100 percent exist?
AYKROYD: Yes, I do. I believe they do. I‘ve had my sighting. I had a telepathic incident shared with 12,000 other people, approximately.
COSBY: But did those films also influence you, you know, those films like, you know, “Ghostbusters” and others, did that play a role?
AYKROYD: Well, you know, my great-grandfather was an Edwardian spiritualist. That‘s why I wrote the “Ghostbusters” movies, because all that material was kind of around my house as a kid.
There‘s a theory that people who see these things, who have brought the alien head into our folk lore—you see it on bumper sticks and pajamas—they‘re doing that because they‘ve seen movies like “Day the Earth Stood Still” and “Close Encounters of the Third Kind.”
And what people are saying, that people who don‘t believe in these UFO events, they‘re saying that that‘s what popular culture has given us and we‘re taking that into our hearts, in our dreams and our minds, and we‘re putting it out there.
But if you look at some of the footage on the DVD, those are really unconventional aircraft that you‘re seeing there, and, you know, they‘re not weather balloons. These are aircraft that are a million years advanced more than us. We know enough to be able to design and build these things; it‘s just we haven‘t got the practical application together, and that‘s going to take time.
COSBY: If there are aliens among us, do they look like Coneheads? Everybody remembers you from the famous Coneheads sketch on “Saturday Night Live.”
AYKROYD: “You will be spared when my species takes over your miserable planet.” I think probably they look like, you know, 19-year-old Florida cheerleaders, honestly. I think they‘ve blended in.
And I think they‘re here, and I think some want to make life on this planet better, to end violence and end abuse of our environment. And the video will kind of bring you up to speed onto what‘s going on with this movement today. And it‘s entertaining. And that‘s the bottom line, you know, Rita, is it‘s entertaining.
COSBY: Well, Dan Aykroyd, thank you so much for being with us. We‘re going to watch more of the DVD. It‘s really interesting.
(LAUGHTER)
AYKROYD: Thanks a lot. Appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSBY: And when we come back, Dan Aykroyd isn‘t the only person who believes in UFOs. Three experts who say Elvis, Mick Jagger and Jimmy Hendrix all saw extraterrestrial beings, we‘ll explain.
And later, you‘ll meet a psychic who may not only lead cops to a suspect, but may have started his punishment. You can decide if you believe the story, when she joins me LIVE & DIRECT.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
E.T., FROM THE MOVIE “E.T.”: E.T., phone home.
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COSBY: Well, it‘s a question that‘s been around a long time, long before “E.T.” Are we alone in the universe, or is there life on other planets and have we been visited by UFOs?
Our next guests say they have the answer. We‘re joined by Peter Davenport with the National UFO Reporting Center. Also, Dr. Bruce Maccabee. He is a Ph.D. with the Mutual UFO Network. And with me here in the studio is Michael Luckman. He‘s the director of the New York Center for Extraterrestrial Research. He‘s also the author of a book called “Alien Rock: The Rock ‘n‘ Roll Extraterrestrial Connection,” which is fascinating.
I want to get to that in a moment, Michael.
But, first, let me start with you, Peter and Bruce, because, Peter, you‘ve had your own extraterrestrial experience. Tell us about it real briefly.
PETER DAVENPORT, NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER: Yes. I was a kid of six years of age. I was sitting in the family car, a ‘53 Studebaker, at a drive-in theater, and saw a huge red light hovering in the night sky, hundreds of people getting out of their cars to see it. It suddenly accelerated and went over the horizon in perhaps two seconds, very dramatic sighting. May explain why I‘m so interested in UFOs.
COSBY: And, Peter, how do you know that it wasn‘t just a red light from a plane?
DAVENPORT: Well, planes don‘t accelerate that fast. This was 1954. It was totally anomalous. Even at that young age, I was very familiar with aircraft at the St. Louis Airport. And, to this day, I‘m convinced that what I saw was not from this planet.
COSBY: Bruce, what did you see?
BRUCE MACCABEE, AUTHOR: Well, I saw something in Gulf Breeze, Florida. But of more importance are the documents that I‘ve seen from the FBI, which I got in 1977. They‘re in my book here, “The UFO-FBI Connection.”
COSBY: And what do the documents show, Bruce?
MACCABEE: The documents show that, as early as the early 1950s, the Air Force intelligence concluded that there was a definite possibility that interplanetary ships were being sighted by literally hundreds of people, especially in 1952. There were hundreds of sightings in a couple of months.
COSBY: That‘s interesting. You know, Michael, lots of sightings. And, in fact, there‘s a new poll. I want to show this up, a recent poll, that says that 14 percent—I was surprised by this number—claim to have had an encounter or know someone who has.
Given that, why is there obviously still a lot of skepticism? I mean, if you talk to the government, they say, “We have no proof.”
MICHAEL LUCKMAN, NY CENTER FOR EXTRATERRESTRIAL RESEARCH: Well, there‘s less skepticism now, Rita. And as far as the government goes, they didn‘t tell us the truth about Iraq, and they‘re not telling us the truth about UFOs.
COSBY: Do you believe that there are UFOs? And where is the proof?
LUCKMAN: Absolutely. The proof is hundreds of thousands of formerly top secret documents that have been pried out of the government as a result of the Freedom of Information Act. They clearly show a pattern of cover-up in knowledge in all of the major government agencies.
Moreover, the ultimate proof, the smoking gun, if you will, lies in about 200 former military intelligence people who worked at the Pentagon in the 1960s and 1970s. I have copies of videotaped depositions that were done with these gentlemen, and I am convinced that they‘re telling the truth about their knowledge, and they‘re willing to go public...
COSBY: And you‘re saying these are actual Pentagon officials?
LUCKMAN: Yes, they are, and employees.
COSBY: You know, let me put up a list. Employees, because in the last two years, there have been sightings in at least eight places. I‘m going to get you to respond to this, Peter, because we‘ve got sightings—this is since 2004. You‘ve got them all over the place. I mean, you got Rochester, you got Omaha, Orlando.
How many do you believe of these sightings are legitimate? How many do you think go unreported, Peter?
DAVENPORT: Well, I suspect, out of the 1,000 legitimate sightings of UFOs, we may get only one that‘s actually reported in written form. Probably I would estimate that 90 percent of the time that people report UFO sightings, they‘re not genuine UFOs at all. It‘s cases of mistaken identity or something along those lines.
But the overwhelming majority of reports are not of UFOs; they‘re of something else. That‘s the job of a UFO investigator, is to filter those out.
COSBY: And speaking of investigators, you know, Bruce, you‘ve been studying this for a while. Why don‘t these, if they do exist, these extraterrestrials, why don‘t they contact us? Why don‘t they come up and speak to us, shake our hand? Why is there this lack of communication, if they‘ve come this far to come to us?
MACCABEE: Well, I don‘t know why the aliens haven‘t contacted us directly, but I do know that, if you have a sighting or something and you want to know who to call, you call UFON.com on the Internet.
COSBY: And, of course, that‘s the group there. You know, Peter, crop circles, do you believe they‘re connected?
DAVENPORT: I have a suspicion they are, but that is not my field of expertise. I‘ve studied but one of them here in the state of Washington, and they‘re intriguing. They seem to have qualities that no human being could have created or duplicated, in my opinion.
COSBY: You know, Michael, your book is fascinating, because you talk about also some celebrities. And I had not heard this before. What, Mick Jagger, Elvis, John Lennon, David Bowie, Jimmy Hendrix, Jerry Garcia, what, all saw it, and how do you know this?
LUCKMAN: They‘ve all had sightings. They all believe in UFOs. Elvis had a very strong belief as a child.
COSBY: How come we never heard this before?
LUCKMAN: Well, there‘s been little glimmers of information here and there, but I did some really deep research over a period of several talking to members of the families of some of the deceased stars, as well as people who just knew them very well and worked with them, and have been able to find out, through the Internet and through all kinds of other sources, that, indeed, Elvis had communication with beings of light at the age of about eight years old.
And they showed him what his life would be like in the future, how it would play out. They showed him a man in a white jumpsuit. And this, of course, was Elvis in the future. He didn‘t know it as a kid what that was.
Jimmy Hendrix had sightings. He had contact with a being that might have saved his life, actually, during a snowstorm in Woodstock, New York, as well as John Lennon had two sightings. In one case, according to Uri Geller, he was given an object, a physical object, which could be the ultimate—a small, brass-colored egg, that could be the ultimate...
COSBY: It‘s fascinating, Michael.
LUCKMAN: The ultimate proof.
COSBY: It‘s fascinating. I‘d love to have you guys all back on again.
LUCKMAN: OK.
COSBY: Interesting, looking at—and 14 percent say they‘ve seen it or they know someone who has.
(LAUGHTER)
LUCKMAN: Absolutely.
COSBY: Interesting topic. All right, guys, thank you very much.
And speaking of out of this world, you have to see “SITUATION” tonight. Let‘s check in with Tucker.
Tucker, are you a believer?
TUCKER CARLSON, MSNBC HOST: Am I a believer? I‘m not prepared to reveal that on this program, Rita. I‘m interested in the subject.
COSBY: We‘ll have to get you back on for a one-hour special on it, all right, Tucker?
CARLSON: If Jerry Garcia believes it, I do.
We‘re going to have more tonight on the lesbian superhero controversy heating up across the country. Stay tuned if you‘re not familiar with that.
Plus, a Massachusetts prisoner in prison for life for strangling his wife is suing to get the state to pay for his sex change operation, and he may get it. We‘ll bring you all the details in just a minute.
COSBY: And we‘ll be watching, just about 15 minutes from now, on “THE SITUATION.” Tucker, thank you very much.
CARLSON: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: And still ahead, everybody, from the extraterrestrials to the paranormal, an amazing story of a psychic medium who not only helped police find a killer, but wait until you hear what some say she did with the power of prayer. It‘s incredible, and it‘s next.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He‘ll seem nice and polite. And you‘ll think, “Maybe a little old for me but harmless,” but he isn‘t harmless. He will rape you and murder you.
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NANCY WEBER, PSYCHIC INVESTIGATOR: He‘s killed before; he‘s killing again; he‘s going to kill more.
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COSBY: A savage killer on the loose, preying on teenage girls as they leave work. With time running out before he strikes again, police enlist the help of a psychic to catch the murderer. It‘s the subject of a new documentary on the Biography Channel. Take a look.
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WEBER: The image I kept having was this naked body, multiple wounds all over. She was lying in water, raped. She had been terribly, terribly violated before she was murdered.
ANNOUNCER: That same day, Amy Hoffman‘s body was found in a retention tank at the reservoir in Randolph.
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COSBY: And we‘re joined now by psychic investigator Nancy Weber and also Sergeant First Class Bill Hughes with the New Jersey State Police.
Let me start with you, Sergeant, real quick, these two murders take place, what, in days of each other? Give us a little background on the two cases.
BILL HUGHES, NEW JERSEY STATE POLICE: Within about a month of each other they took place. The first one took place right around Thanksgiving.
COSBY: And where did it happen? Where did they happen?
HUGHES: The first one happened in Randolph Township, New Jersey. Amy Hoffman was abducted from a mall in Hanover Township and taken to a remote area in Randolph Township where she was murdered.
COSBY: And the next one?
HUGHES: The second one was Deirdre O‘Brian. She was on her way home from work when she was run off the road in Morris Township, abducted from there, and taken on a long ride, approximately 20 miles to a rest area, a remote area on Route 80 in Allamuchy Township.
COSBY: As authorities, did you believe these two cases were connected?
HUGHES: Yes, we did.
COSBY: You did, right away?
HUGHES: Yes, we did.
COSBY: Because of the similarities of—the reporting is of a car?
HUGHES: Exactly.
COSBY: Now, you get involved, Nancy. How did that come about?
WEBER: It came about from a comment I made to Bill one day when I saw a newspaper report on the discovery of Amy Hoffman‘s body.
COSBY: And you‘re a psychic, and at that point you were a known psychic.
WEBER: Yes, and I had worked with the police in the town before. And Bill had dropped by, and I mentioned to him briefly, “I didn‘t know why the newspaper report was lying.” She was brutally assaulted, raped and tortured, and the newspaper didn‘t state that. It said something very different. And I questioned this to him.
COSBY: And what was your reaction when she said this?
HUGHES: Well, my reaction was—I basically knew what she knew, what I read in the press reports of the first homicide. There wasn‘t a lot of information given to the press.
COSBY: So were your surprised when you heard this?
HUGHES: Yes, I was surprised. I didn‘t know where she was coming from, but I put in the back of my head for the time being.
COSBY: And then you actually saw—they asked you, “OK, let‘s look into this case.” You actually saw who the killer was. And it‘s pretty incredible. I want to show just a little clip, because this is a little bit of the show where you actually sort of put together who he is.
WEBER: Yes.
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WEBER: He‘s from Polish descent. He grew up in Morristown. Pop, he lives in Florida. He was in jail there for murder. His name kept coming to me, the man who was with her, James. I don‘t know if she knew his name;
I knew I knew it. So when I got the last name beginning with a K, and “Kadavavich.”
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COSBY: And you were pretty close to being right on, Nancy.
WEBER: Yes.
COSBY: Amazing. How did you see it right away, real quick?
WEBER: I think Amy helped me, actually. I think she helped me and the being at the crime scene helped.
COSBY: And, real quick, these are the kinds—this is what it turned out to be. The killer‘s name, as you suggested, James K., there it is, from New Jersey, served Florida—I mean, you hit it right on.
WEBER: Yes. It is shocking to the person who does it to, to not know how we really do it.
COSBY: It is. And, both of you, please stay with us, because I want to talk more with you. We‘re going to take just a very short, little break right now. But when we come back, a bizarre twist: how the killer finally gets caught. Remember you saw the similarities there, but there was an even more bizarre twist, right after the break.
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COSBY: ... very bizarre turn. Something out of a supernatural horror movie, as a psychic and police are in a race against time to stop a killer who has brutally raped and also killed two young women.
We‘re joined again by psychic investigator Nancy Weber and also Sergeant First Class Bill Hughes with the New Jersey State Police.
Nancy, I want to go—first, because, all of this information, you have these similarities. You basically have the guy‘s last name, what all this looks like, you know, K, it‘s pretty close to a Polish last name. There it is, what your vision is.
WEBER: Right.
COSBY: The D.A. doesn‘t do anything. How frustrated are you? And what do you decide to do?
WEBER: I decide that I have to gather friends, because I couldn‘t sleep. I would walk around day and night feeling he was coming out again to kill. And I had never been that frustrated in my life, I think, no matter what.
COSBY: And what did you do when you gathered your friends? What did you do?
WEBER: They were students of mine. And I sat with them, and I told them that they had to take a confidentiality oath not to discuss this with any one. And I walked them through the whole case that I knew, my end of it.
And we gathered hands afterwards, and I said a prayer, asking God to return to this “James K. Something-ich” all the pain he had given women in such a manner that he could no longer give it to anyone.
COSBY: And what happens then, Sergeant? What happens at that point?
Soon after that, you get a call. The police get a call.
HUGHES: That‘s correct, that the suspect had self-inflicted wound and he was subsequently arrested.
COSBY: So as you‘re praying, this pain happens. He‘s actually experiencing pain. But he first claims that a woman with dark hair does it. And I want to put up the picture, if we have this, because at the time you had long, dark hair.
WEBER: Yes. And it was the next morning after the class that he was calling in. And I got the call maybe an hour later after they arrested him from Captain Jimmy Moore. And he said, “Nancy, what did you do?” And I told him about the class, not knowing what he was talking about.
COSBY: It is a pretty—you know, whether people believe in psychics or not, it‘s an, you know, amazing confluence of events.
WEBER: Yes, exactly. You know, I still don‘t know what actually happened; I just know that‘s what we did.
COSBY: And what do you think? How do you explain this, Sergeant?
Because she has this vision, she has the group, and this happened.
HUGHES: All‘s I know is it worked, so it speaks for itself. That‘s all I can say.
COSBY: And how do you have the vision? How did you see this?
WEBER: I saw it, and I heard it. Words came to me, visions came, glimpse, like pieces of a puzzle would fall into place over hours. This wasn‘t in minutes. This was spending almost an entire day driving around with them.
And one hour, I would get a piece, and then I‘d go over and over it. And then three hours later, more pieces would come, and the pieces would just keep coming. But it took a lot of work. I landed in bed sick.
HUGHES: She would pick up a piece. She would pick up a piece when we would hit a certain point in a town or something like that that corresponded to this guy.
COSBY: And that‘s how it came together? Well, both of you, incredible story. And good work solving this case. And thank you both for being here very much.
WEBER: Thank you.
COSBY: We‘ll be watching, obviously, the Biography Channel for your special, too, very much. Thank you so much.
And, everybody, that does it for me. Now, let‘s go to Tucker and “THE SITUATION”—Tucker?
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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