updated 6/16/2006 11:56:18 AM ET 2006-06-16T15:56:18

Guests: Peter Fenn, Julie Myers, Elliott Duchon

RITA COSBY, HOST, “LIVE AND DIRECT”:  That does it for us.  I‘m Rita Cosby.  THE SITUATION with Tucker Carlson starts right now—Tucker. 

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  Thanks, Rita.  Condo association board member, cop, pretty close. 

Thanks to you at home for joining us tonight.  Great to have you with us.

Tonight the crackdown that nabbed nearly 2,100 illegal immigrants.  It sounds impressive, but will Operation Return to Sender really make a difference or is it merely slick P.R.?

Also ahead, new developments in the broiling Geno‘s cheesesteak controversy.  We‘ll talk to the man whose sign requesting customers speak English has sparked a nationwide controversy and an investigation. 

Plus, last night we told you about the $1.4 billion FEMA fraud.  Tonight, how the concerned women of the Hooters Corporation have decided to chip in.  We‘ll have that story in just a few minutes. 

But first the Democrats‘ plan for Iraq.  Is there one?  House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi blasted the Bush administration today, calling for a fresh strategy.  Here‘s what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER:  Democrats are proposing a new direction for Iraq.  We all agreed that the year 2006 must be a year of significant transition in Iraq instead of the wrong direction that the president is going in. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  But with their party in complete disarray, can Democrats offer a real alternative?  Joining me to answer that question, Democratic strategist Peter Fenn, joining us live from Washington. 

Peter, welcome.

PETER FENN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  Thanks a lot, Tucker.  Great to be here. 

CARLSON:  Well, thank you. 

Nancy Pelosi said much but really nothing in the end.  A comprehensive strategy, big things must happen in 2006.  There‘s no Democratic plan for Iraq.  And I guess I suggest to you that if you want to retake Congress and the White House it‘s your—it‘s really your moral obligation to come up with a coherent Iraq strategy, and they don‘t have one. 

FENN:  Well, I‘ll tell you, I think there are probably a whole lot of Iraq strategies amongst the Democratic Party.  The trouble is there is—as you say there is not one strategy.  We are a pretty big tent.  I don‘t see everybody agreeing on it.

But I‘ll tell you one thing.  If I were to propose a resolution as a Democrat, that resolution would be it shall be revolved that George W. Bush within 30 days shall propose a plan on the war in Iraq to Congress.  What we have—what we get from this administration is 74-page really just talking points for members of Congress to grandstand. 

CARLSON:  Well, I don‘t know.  I disagree.  I mean, I actually disagree with both you and the Bush administration.  I think the Bush administration‘s plan for Iraq doesn‘t make a lot of sense.  I think the war was a mistake, as I‘ve said many times. 

But they do a coherent plan.  Bush‘s—Bush‘s plan is stay until the Iraqi government can stand on its own and is willing to turn over its security requirements to its own security forces.  I mean, you can agree or disagree, but that‘s a plan. 

You have Nancy Pelosi, meanwhile, on the other hand, saying we need to pull out immediately.  John Kerry agrees.  By the end of the year, he says, we need a schedule for pulling American troops out. 

And then the caucus runs the gamut from the radicals who want to withdraw today to people like Hillary Clinton who say the war is a good idea. 

FENN:  Right.

CARLSON:  I mean, you‘re not going to win with a lack of a strategy like that.

FENN:  Well, I happen to think that the best thing for the Democrats would be to say, “Listen, you know, we have to have an end game here.”  And whether it‘s six months or a year, a year and a half, you have to say that, look, within a year, within 18 months, you know, it‘s going to be time to pull out. 

The problem with the Bush so-called plan is that they have no clue as to when that‘s going to happen.  They have no idea as to when they‘re going to be able to turn things over to the so-called government. 

CARLSON:  You‘re right.  You‘re absolutely right.  But in place of that, in place of a timetable, he set up criteria.  He says, look, when the Iraqi government can take care of itself we will leave. 

I don‘t know.  Again, you can agree or disagree.  I guess my point is this, and it‘s a political one, as well.

FENN:  Right.

CARLSON:  The Republican Party is very weak.  The president is very unpopular and so is the war in Iraq.  Democrats ought to be able to capitalize on that.  But they can‘t, because they don‘t have a better alternative.

I think Democrats will fail in this mid-term election, against all odds, snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, until they get their act together on Iraq.  And I don‘t think they‘re going to be able to.

FENN:  I don‘t think you‘re going to have a total consensus.  I would agree with you.  But I think things are moving more and more towards saying, look, within a year, within 18 months, we should be out of there. 

But here‘s the key thing.  The interesting thing about this.  I looked it up.  The Fulbright committee, Jay William Fulbright, chairman of the foreign relations committee, had 21 hearings on Vietnam.  He looked at this thoroughly.  He had witnesses.  That committee really investigated this. 

We have had a show trial today in the House of Representatives.  It‘s a joke.  It‘s the same thing, same resolution, basically, they voted on a year ago with Murtha. 

CARLSON:  Wait, wait.

FENN:  They should have real serious look at the policy and the possibilities and have something more than throwing verbal bombs at one another. 

CARLSON:  Wait a second.  Wait a second.  I mean, there is a very—there‘s a very fine line between a debate and a study.  I mean, they‘re pretty much the same thing.  Democrats are mad because Republicans on the Hill are trying to take them to take a position on Iraq.  And as I‘ve said, they don‘t have one.  And you‘ve agreed with that.

So in an election year, shouldn‘t we all take sides on Iraq?  What should we do?

FENN:  A lot of people have ideas, have a lot of proposals, have a lot of thoughts on this.  My point is that instead of having a grandstanding effort which is purely political, why don‘t you hold hearings on this?  Why not do what Jay William Fulbright did during Vietnam?

CARLSON:  It‘s not—well, first of all, Jay William Fulbright did a great deal of grandstanding himself, as you know.  And that‘s not bad.  It‘s an election year.  Grandstanding is part of the process.  Getting up and saying, “I believe this; my opponent believes that,” that informs the public.  It‘s good for democracy.

FENN:  Right.  Well, I will tell you, I think those candidates that are most critical of this president, that want to move ahead and start withdrawing those troops before November, that have them mostly out of there in a year.  Those kinds of candidates with going to do better than those candidates that put their fingers up to the political wind. 

CARLSON:  Well, we‘ll see.  You‘re putting Hillary Clinton in the latter category.  I‘ll be honest with you, Peter, as a friend of yours and as someone who doesn‘t like the Democratic Party, but you know, as a keen observer of it, I feel sorry for you.  I feel sorry for the Democratic Party.  I‘ve never seen a more pathetic group.  They should be winning right now, and they‘re not. 

FENN:  Listen, are you kidding?  I mean, look, if we want to look at the Republicans, they said—Ray LaHood, Republican from Illinois, called this effort today a dumb idea. 

Gilchrest from Maryland said it was ludicrous.  There‘s nothing to do with saving lives or the war.  It was one-upsmanship against the Democrats.  These are Republicans criticizing fellow Republicans for what they‘ve been up to.  I think folks recognize this, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Maybe they do.  But the fact that the Democrats can be one-upped in this environment, when everybody dislikes the president, tells you a lot about how lame they are. 

Peter Fenn, a non-lame Democrat.

FENN:  I‘m not lame, I hope. 

CARLSON:  You‘re not.  You‘re not in the slightest lame, Peter. 

Thanks for joining us.

FENN:  Thanks, Tucker.

CARLSON:   Now to the other big story of the day, the round up of fugitive illegal aliens known as Operation Return to Sender.  Some 2,100 illegal immigrants were arrested over the past few weeks, some of them child molesters, other violent gang members and past deportees.

It sounds pretty impressive but is it more than a P.R. stunt?  Will it achieve anything to stop illegal immigration?  My next guest is here to answer that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON:  Julie Myers is assistant secretary for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.  She joins us from Washington. 

Ms. Myers, thanks for coming up. 

JULIE MYERS, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, ICE:  Thanks for having me, Tucker.

CARLSON:  I think this is great.  I think what you all have done is terrific.  Thank you for doing it.  I wonder, though, if it‘s not being oversold a little bit.  Your spokesman described this as, quote, “a massive operation, 2,100 fugitive illegal aliens rounded up.”

Out of, though, more than half a million in the country.  Is it too much to call it massive?

MYERS:  Well, certainly, we have a lot of work to do.  We‘re on the job every day.  But we think that this 2 ½ week operation is certainly a good first step. 

CARLSON:  OK.  Why a first step now, though, six years into the Bush administration? Presumably with a half million of these guys floating around our country.  And it‘s not necessarily your fault, but I‘m wondering why this wasn‘t done, say, six years ago?

MYERS:  Well, I think we‘ve kind of rethought how we do immigration enforcement.  And less than two months ago Secretary Chertoff announced an interior enforcement strategy that called upon eyes to really focus on removing criminal aliens, strengthening employer sanctions and, finally, focusing on removing the infrastructure that supports illegal aliens. 

And we‘re doing just that.  He called on us to move quicker, faster and more effective.  And since he announced that strategy, we‘ve had a number of regional operations.  This is our first national one.

CARLSON:  Wouldn‘t it just be a lot simpler and more effective to tighten up the border and keep these people from getting into the country, or in some cases back into the country in the first place? 

MYERS:  Well, absolutely we have to tighten up the border.  And that‘s why the president sent the National Guard down to the border, and we are relying very much on our partners at Border Patrol to strengthen security at the border. 

CARLSON:  I think he set less than—fewer than a 100 National Guardsmen to the border so far.  Not exactly sending the National Guard. 

MYERS:  Well, certainly, he‘s sending the National Guard in stages, but I think some reports are already showing that there‘s deterrence just by sending the National Guard down there. 

And our partners at Border Patrol are doing an excellent job in really making the borders more secure.  But absolutely, some individuals do get through.  Some overstay their visa.  And some commit crimes once they‘re here.  And those are the individuals we‘re going to target and we‘re going to focus on. 

CARLSON:  Well, again, good for you, but “some” doesn‘t really capture the scope of it, it seems to me.  I mean, more than a half a million.  That‘s more than “some”.  That‘s a massive number.  That‘s bigger than most cities in America.  That‘s a lot of bad guys floating around our country and not being stopped or deported.  I mean, that seems like a crisis to me. 

MYERS:  There certainly is a huge job to do.  The president has requested a 23 percent increase in ICE‘s budget for fiscal year ‘07.  I think he‘s realized that we need more resources.  If we had more fugitive operation teams, we‘d have more individuals that we could send home from the country. 

And just last year, for example, out of all the individuals we deported, we recorded over 84,000 criminal aliens.  So we certainly are on the job day in, day out.  But as you point out, it‘s a huge job to do. 

CARLSON:  The name of this operation was Return to Sender.  The sender, of course, is Mexico.  The Mexican government not very cooperative on matters regarding illegal immigration, obviously.  Have they been cooperative in this case?  Are they taking these people back?

MYERS:  Well, actually, Operation Return to Sender involved individuals from 41 different countries. 

CARLSON:  OK.

MYERS:  So it was not only individuals from Mexico but all over the world including countries such as Egypt, El Salvador. 

CARLSON:  Right.

MYERS:  China.  In this instance we‘ve already repatriated over 829 individuals back to their home country that most often was Mexico, so they have been very cooperative in this case.

CARLSON:  Right.  The overwhelming majority of the 12 million illegal immigrants in this country are from Mexico.  And is—I mean, Mexico historically, as you know better than I, has not been eager to take these people back.  Have they changed their policy?

MYERS:  Mexico has been a very good partner.  We‘ve been working with them very well lately on law enforcement matters and also on repatriation matters.  They‘ve also changed some of their internal rules, for example, how they deal with Brazilians, which has helped us in terms of illegal Brazilians coming to the United States. 

CARLSON:  Why shouldn‘t we just build a wall the length of our southern border?

MYERS:  Well, certainly, I think the president and the Border Patrol feel it‘s important to have a layered approach.  And that infrastructure, fencing works very, very well in some places, and we need to increase that. 

In other places road barriers are very effective.  In other places technology is most effective.  So I think we need to think about all sorts of approaches and look at the particular terrain to see. 

CARLSON:  So there—so what you‘re saying is there is a physical approach.  There are barriers that are more effective than a wall?

MYERS:  I think it depends on the particular area.  In urban areas sometimes fencing works better than in some rural areas.  And so, according to the Border Patrol they look at the land, they look at the risk (ph) to figure out what—what‘s the thing that will be most effective in order to stop individuals from coming to this country. 

CARLSON:  Well, I hope that‘s—it seems to me like they‘re looking to see what‘s cheapest.  But I hope you‘re right.  They‘ll look at what‘s most effective.  That‘s comforting if true. 

Julie Myers, thanks very much. 

MYERS:  Thanks for having me. 

CARLSON:  Up next tonight, Geno‘s Steaks, home of the controversial English-only ordering policy, continues to battle discrimination charges in Philadelphia. 

What is the head cheese steak man think of all of the fuss?  He‘ll join us after the break.

Plus Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates shocks the world with the announcement that he is leaving the company in 2008.  Is the world‘s richest man, the most influential living American?  We‘ll tell you when THE SITUATION returns. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Still to come, we‘ll ask the owner of Geno‘s Steaks why he‘s not backing down from critics who want him to remove his “English only” sign.

But, how the Hooters restaurant chain is stepping up to help victims of fraud.   That‘s right. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Now to the latest on the cheesesteak controversy.  As you‘ve probably heard by now, one of the city‘s best known cheesesteak established.  Geno‘s recently posted a sign saying, quote, “This is America.  When ordering, speak English.”

Simple enough, but city officials in Philadelphia called it bigotry.  Well, today the mayor of that city weighed in, saying the sign is probably legal, and quote, “It doesn‘t necessarily mean there was a violation of anything.” 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON:  Joining me now, the hero of the cheesesteak battle, the owner of Geno‘s Steaks in Philadelphia, Joey Vento.

Mr. Vento, thanks for coming on.

JOEY VENTO, OWNER, GENO‘S STEAKS:  Thank you, sir, for having me.

CARLSON:  You made the secret police in Philadelphia pretty mad at you.  How‘d you do that?

VENTO:  The secret police of Philadelphia. 

CARLSON:  Whatever they‘re called: the Commission on Human Relations I guess is the technical name.

VENTO:  I don‘t know what the problem is we have—we just have people—it‘s hard to communicate at some times.  I took that quote, being as I‘m a true American and I believe in America we have the room for one language and that‘s the English language.  And I want everybody to speak English.

Now that doesn‘t mean we serve you.  We serve everyone.  It‘s just that if you don‘t speak properly we‘re going to interpret it the wrong way.  You‘re going to get what we think we interpreted.  So it just might not be the product you‘re having. 

Now, the people that say, well, it‘s discriminating, you know, against the Spanish people.  You know, they don‘t speak English.  Well, my question is if you don‘t speak English, you don‘t understand a language.  How the hell—what‘s the sign say to you?  It says nothing.  I mean really it says nothing. 

CARLSON:  Kind of a brilliant point I hadn‘t thought of before. 

VENTO:  I mean, you know, how is it insulting? 

And if you do speak English, how‘s a sign that says this is America, when ordering please speak English,” which they always leave that “please” out for some reason.  I mean, please speak English, no matter what nationality you are. 

CARLSON:  Well, here‘s—here‘s the complaint against you.  I‘ve got a copy of it right here. 

“‘When ordering, speak English,‘ thereby discouraging patronage by non-English speaking customers, all because of national origin and/or ancestry.” 

You got a problem with people‘s national origin and/or ancestry?

VENTO:  No, I just go back to the same point—and if you don‘t speak the language.  I don‘t care if you‘re Italian, Italian descent.  It would be the same thing for Italian.  German, Korean.  It makes no difference.

If you don‘t understand the language you can‘t read the—you can‘t speak it, you can‘t read it.  How is it offensive?

CARLSON:  That‘s—have you had any non-English speakers look at the sign, not understand it and get offended?

VENTO:  No, I‘ve never had a complaint. 

CARLSON:  So how exactly did this complaint wind up before the Commission on Human Relations?

VENTO:  I have on idea.  It‘s been up for at least nine months.  I‘ve got it right here.  October 22 there‘s a gentleman came here, because speaking English only sign.

So I know it‘s has been up for at least nine months.  Now are you going to tell me for nine months, establishing for 24/7.  I‘m an icon in Philadelphia, and I‘ve been turning away all these people.  And nobody made a complaint. 

CARLSON:  Why would you—here‘s the part I don‘t understand.  OK, you‘re in a retail business.  You sell products, and you make money off those products.  Correct?  Right.  Why would you want to turn people away?

VENTO:  I wouldn‘t. 

CARLSON:  No kidding. 

VENTO:  That‘s silly.  I just—I‘m American.  Anybody that looked at that sign and said, “Speak in English.  Oh, that is so offensive,” well then maybe you are in the wrong country. 

CARLSON:  There‘s another cheesesteak operation in Philadelphia.  I‘m not going to name the name.  Some of our viewers may know it.  But I‘m not even going to speak the words.  But you know who I‘m talking about. 

GENO‘S:  Right.

CARLSON: Do you suspect that this cheesesteak operation, your competitors, might have turned you in to the secret police in Philadelphia?

VENTO:  Well, if that was their intention, it‘s a cheap shot, because they did kind of side with the—to me, they‘re illegals.  You know, if you don‘t speak the English language that means you‘re illegal, because if you spoke English that kind of tells me you at least got the green card or something.  That being said—

CARLSON:  Are those the criteria you use for hiring?  You speak English; you‘ve got to have a green card.

VENTO:  Right.  But if they took that shot, guess what?  They backfired on me, because the country is behind me 100 percent.  Now the thing really got out of hand. 

And what I‘m getting from the polls, and it‘s all over the country, I mean everybody wants these illegals out of here.  First of all, what makes the Spanish people so special that the got their choices, English or Spanish. 

No other group had this courtesy done to them.  It was called you had to learn English.  This crutch that they have, they‘re never going to learn English because it‘s easy to stay in their native language. 

CARLSON:  But if they don‘t they‘re not getting—they‘re not getting cheesesteaks at Geno‘s Steaks, are they?

VENTO:  Well, you‘re going to get a cheesesteak.  It just might not be the cheese steak you think you wanted. 

CARLSON:  OK.

VENTO:  Because we‘re not communicating.  I mean, this is a melting pot.  They all tell me, “Joe, it‘s a melting pot.”  That‘s right.  It‘s not a melting pot with language.  It‘s a melting pot where we have the same culture.  The common denominator is the English language.

CARLSON:  Amen!

VENTO:  If you don‘t speak English you‘re in the wrong country. 

CARLSON:  Well put.  Not only a great maker of cheesesteaks but I think a very wise man.  Joey Vento from Philadelphia, thank you. 

VENTO:  Thank you, sir.

CARLSON:  Still ahead as the Duke rape case continues to crumble, isn‘t it about time we learned the name of the accuser who smeared the names of the three lacrosse players?  Of course it is. 

Plus renowned astrophysicist Stephen Hawking says the survival of the human race depends on its ability to colonize outer space.  Where does Hawking rank among the all-time doomsday prophets?  We‘ve got the list.  We‘ll share it with you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  In tonight‘s “SITUATION Crime Blotter”, a former special education teacher who faked stomach cancer was sentenced two years in prison. 

Heather Faria of Dighton, Massachusetts, conned her friends and community into raising $37,000 for her treatment.  Instead, she spent the dough on a trip to St. Martin, a big screen TV and jewelry. 

Investigators in Florida tracked down a carjacker who ran over his victim and severed her leg.  The entire incident was caught on tape.  Twenty-six-year-old Kevin Rhoton jumped out of a yellow Mustang and into a ‘94 Infinity.  Once the car‘s owner, Bethzaida Concepcion, realized what was going on she ran to the drivers‘ side to try and stop the car. 

Rhoton threw the car into reverse, hitting a truck, a barrier and knocking Concepcion to the ground.  He‘s now facing charges for attempted felony murder and carjacking. 

Well, a little future shock tonight from renowned physicist Stephen Hawking.  Hawking says it‘s time for us to begin colonizing space, because he foresees an imminent doomsday disaster, such a nuclear war or a genetically engineered killer virus of some kind. 

Hawking‘s groundbreaking research on the university has made him one of the respected scientific minds in the world.  Still, his apocalyptic vision of earth strikes many critics as spacey as best.  But Hawking is not alone. 

In tonight‘s “Top Five”, a close encounter with some of the world‘s most infamous prophets of doom. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON (voice-over):  They pass themselves off at the gurus of hope and happiness.  But just beneath the surface lies paranoia and self-destruction that have often led unsuspecting disciples to horrific fates. 

Japan, 1995.  The religious group Aum Shinriko releases the deadly nerve gas sarin in the Tokyo subway system.  Twelve commuters are killed.  Thousands more injured.  It‘s all part of sect leader Shoko Asahara‘s path of the so-called final destination.  The justice system, however, took him on a detour to Death Row. 

They patterned their seemingly idyllic lives near San Diego after the TV show “Star Trek”.  That was until 1997, when Heaven‘s Gate cult founder Marshall Applewhite and his 39 followers decided to hitch a ride on an approaching spaceship. 

MARSHALL APPLEWHITE, HEAVEN‘S GATE FOUNDER:  Planet Earth about to be recycled.

CARLSON:  The final frontier indeed. 

They were awaiting the second coming of Christ.  Instead, David Koresh and his fellow Branch Davidians got a visit from the feds in 1993.  A 51-day standoff at their compound near Waco, Texas, ended with a fire that killed Koresh and 75 of his followers, 27 of them children. 

CHARLES MANSON, CONVICTED MURDERER:  We need to admit to ourselves that we don‘t know what the prophets have taught. 

CARLSON:  His followers believed she was the son of man.  So in 1969, when Charles Manson declared Armageddon to be imminent, four members of his L.A.-based family went on a bloody murder spree.  Their seven victims included actress Sharon Tate.

Though incarcerated, Manson continues to receive fan mail from young people hoping to join his family. 

MANSON:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CARLSON:  Jonestown, Guiana, the town People‘s Temple cult leader Jim Jones put on the map.  It began as a socialist utopia for expatriated Americans.  It ended in a nightmare in 1978 when their paranoid messiah ordered his followers to drink cyanide-laced Kool-Aid.  The final body count exceeded 900, including Jim Jones.  Today, Jonestown is literally a ghost town.

JIM JONES, FOUNDER, PEOPLE‘S TEMPLE:  The lie—lies.  What can I do about lies?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON:  Still to come tonight, are school officials pushing their pro-illegal immigration views on students?  We‘ll meet a man accused of doing just that and rightly so. 

Plus, who gives a hoot about FEMA‘s gross mismanagement of more than $1 million in Katrina relief funds?  Hooters does.  We‘ll explain when THE SITUATION returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Still to come, Bill Gates announced he‘s stepping down from Microsoft.  Is Bill Gates the most influential man in America?

Plus, is it OK for police to barge in to your home without knocking? 

Apparently, it is.  We‘ll get to that in just a minute.

But first, here‘s what else is going on in the world tonight.

(NEWSBREAK)

CARLSON:  On last night‘s show, I spoke to high school senior Joshua Denhalter.  He recently sued the Jurupa, California, School District because he was not allowed to hold an anti-illegal immigration rally on campus.  The 18-year-old Denhalter was suspended from school for three days for distributing flyers about an off-campus rally he was also planning to organize. 

He was also told he could not wear a T-shirt with an anti-illegal immigration slogan on it. 

So why are school administrators silencing people who don‘t agree with their pro-illegal immigration position?  What kind of lesson is that?  That‘s his point, anyway.  Let‘s get the other side. 

We‘re joined now by Elliott Duchon.  He‘s the superintendent of the Jurupa Unified School District.  He joins us tonight from Riverside, California.

Mr. Duchon, thanks for coming on. 

ELLIOTT DUCHON, SUPERINTENDENT, JURUPA UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT: 

You‘re welcome.  Hello.

CARLSON:  It does sound like the school is taking a political position on the question of illegal immigration and punishing Joshua Denhalter because his views don‘t jive with your views. 

DUCHON:  Absolutely not.  Mr. Denhalter‘s views are views that probably several students, as well as maybe even staff in the district would agree with.  Mr. Denhalter was not punished.  Actually, he was told that he could speak his voice.  He was given several opportunities for.  He was disciplined for disrupting campus. 

CARLSON:  Disrupting campus.  That‘s a general enough crime that it could mean anything.  Here‘s what he says.  He says that there was a big pro-illegal immigration rally throughout California, actually, and that kids in his school were excused from class to attend it.  Is that true?

DUCHON:  No, it‘s not true.  We did not have a pro-immigration rally.  What happened was on Monday, March 27, when we were faced with student walkouts throughout the nation, all of our secondary schools were on high alert.  We had extra securities at the school. 

And the principal of Jurupa Valley High School had heard from students that there was a planned walkout.  He then talked to a number of students and arranged at lunch time to have an open mic available in the stadium, where a number of students came.  Certainly, the larger number of students were opposing H.R. 4437. 

CARLSON:  Right.

DUCHON:  But a number of students spoke in favor of H.R. 4437 and were given an opportunity to speak. 

CARLSON:  OK.  So what—what did Mr.—I mean, I don‘t understand what Joshua Denhalter did wrong then. 

DUCHON:  Mr. Denhalter, on Thursday morning was passing out a flier that said protest.  Come to a rally across the street from the school during lunch on Friday. 

Our campuses are closed campuses.  The only students who leave campus have a signed permission slip from their parents which allowed them to go to a very specific place.  And if they don‘t go to that specific place at lunch time—I‘m talking about a lunch pass...

CARLSON:  But your complaint is he was encouraging kids to leave campus when they‘re not supposed to.  Is that?

DUCHON:  Absolutely.  He was encouraging kids to leave campus at a time when we were telling kids very adamantly they needed to be on campus. 

CARLSON:  Right.  If that‘s your only problem with his position on this, then why was he told he couldn‘t ware a shirt with an anti-illegal immigration slogan on it?

DUCHON:  Well, actually, that happened—that happened several weeks later.  Our dress code for our secondary school specifically says attire is not permitted which either exalts or demeans any group.  And so the shirt he was wearing said illegal aliens go home. 

CARLSON:  No, it said “Uncle Sam”—It said “Uncle Sam doesn‘t want you, illegal aliens.” 

DUCHON:  Doesn‘t want you.  You‘re right. 

CARLSON:  Doesn‘t want you.  Now Uncle Sam doesn‘t want you if you‘re an illegal alien.  You‘re by definition committing a crime.  So in what way is that denigrating a group?  That‘s describing reality as it exists in 2006. 

DUCHON:  We believe the shirt is demeaning to a group of people, be they illegal immigrants or otherwise.  Substitute any other word.  Substitute blondes, redheads, tall people, short people.

CARLSON:  You don‘t understand.  Illegal alien describes what people do, not who they are, not how they‘re born.  People who come here illegally.  They are by definition breaking the law.  This kid is essentially saying I support American law.

DUCHON:  That‘s your—that‘s your opinion.

CARLSON:  It‘s not my opinion; it‘s a fact.  He‘s saying, “I support American law”, and you‘re saying it‘s demeaning to support American law.  I don‘t—I think you‘re the one in violation. 

DUCHON:  Absolutely not.  No, you‘re putting—you‘re putting words in my mouth.  What we‘re saying is he‘s not allowed to a shirt that demeans any group of people, irrespective of who they are.  That‘s the dress code of the school. 

CARLSON:  If it said bank robbers go home, what would you say?  Is that demeaning, too?

DUCHON:  If we had a group of bank robbers at the school that were a specific, absolutely. 

CARLSON:  OK.  You win.  You win.  Bank robber rights.  I‘m for it, too.  OK.  I‘m sorry.  I can‘t—I mean, I guess we‘re just going to have to agree to disagree. 

DUCHON:  Sir...

CARLSON:  Yes.

DUCHON:  We have a constitutional prerogative—not prerogative, mandate to maintain safety and security on campus.  And campus disruption as well as demeaning other kids, you may read the Harper case.  Now you...

CARLSON:  If people don‘t—you‘re not standing up for a minority position.  This guy has unpopular political views.  And I think you ought to stand up to the other kids and say this kid is representing unpopular point of view and let him talk.  That‘s kind of the American way, and I think you would have stand up for him.

DUCHON:  He was allowed to talk.  Sir, he was allowed to talk. 

CARLSON:  Right.

DUCHON:  Our students are sent home for any shirt that demeans any group. 

CARLSON:  OK.  Well, Mr. Duchon, we‘re grateful you came on.  Glad you brought your point of view to the show.  Thanks. 

DUCHON:  You‘re welcome. 

CARLSON:  We turn now to another man who‘s prone to defending bank robbers, car thieves, and really all manner of criminals.  He is “The Outsider”, ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing host Max Kellerman. 

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO:  That now—that all depends, Tucker.  Are you for or against the bank robbers?  Because that‘s how I have to come to my opinion.  If you support the bank robbers, I‘ll argue against them if you like. 

CARLSON:  I guess, you know, if I were a California school superintendent I would.  I‘m not, so I don‘t.  But you know, I guess it‘s all a time and place thing. 

Well, the Supreme Court today, speaking of law and order, granted the police the right to bust down your door without even knocking.  In a 5-4 vote, the high court rules that judges cannot throw out evidence but do not properly announce their arrival. 

This essentially gives cops free reign to kick down people‘s doors without any warning at all.  The dissenting judges expressed concern about police violating the sanctity of citizens‘ private homes, and well they should. 

Why does being a police officer excuse you from decency and good manners?  Max, you‘ve got nothing to hide, so you don‘t mind we bust down your door.  I don‘t have anything to hide either, I guess.  But just because you‘re a police officer doesn‘t mean you shouldn‘t knock.  We‘re all American citizens, all human beings.  We should treat one other with decency and respect, particularly those who are innocent until proven guilty. 

KELLERMAN:  I, too, wouldn‘t mind being a gentleman farmer, Tucker. 

You know, it sounds like fun.

However, in the real world—I‘m actually surprised that you are against this.  Really what this is about, they don‘t want evidence thrown out on a technicality. 

The cops have a search warrant.  So if they bust down the door, yes, it‘s not nice.  It‘s rude.  But you know, like the courts don‘t want evidence—they don‘t want to skip Jeffrey Dahmer‘s house, you know.  “He‘s not answering.”

CARLSON:  Not answering. 

I see that.  And you want to see justice done in the send.  And evidence thrown out on a technicality, it‘s upsetting. 

On the other hand, you have this real problem with police.  They have a ton of power.  You have to make certain they don‘t abuse that power.  They are still, again, American citizens.

And so you have to put the onus on them to treat citizens, other citizens with decency and respect, and that means knocking.  I‘m sorry, it does.  It‘s rude not to knock.  Have them post your witness, period (ph).

KELLERMAN:  If you have a search—if you have a search warrant and you think there‘s some danger behind that door, but you have it legally you can go get the evidence, and you bust down the door.  You get the evidence. 

Now they‘re in court.  “Your honor, here it is.  Jeffrey Dahmer, he had six heads in the refrigerator.  He was eating all these people.” 

“Did you knock on the door before you—you didn‘t knock.  Go free.” 

I mean, how are you going to do that?

CARLSON:  That‘s a shame, but you have to keep police—you have to keep reminding police that they have to respect other citizens, and they often don‘t in my extensive experience on the subject. 

KELLERMAN:  Mine as well. 

CARLSON:  Well, Bill Gates is stepping down from his position at the company that made him the richest man in the world, in the history of the world, for that matter. 

The Microsoft chairman announced today he will give up his day-to-day activities at the company he founded by July 2008.  Gates said he will then turn all of his attention to giving away his billions through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. 

During his 30 years at Microsoft, Gate has changed our lives immeasurably, of course.  So is he the most influential living American?  Of course he is, Max.  Name one person who has done more to affect the way we live.  Derek Jeter is not one of the choices. 

KELLERMAN:  Mariano Rivera?

CARLSON:  Not even close.

KELLERMAN:  This is always the argument with shapers of industry.  Thomas Edison‘s secretary, who went on to start the big power company.  You know, yes, it changes the particular form an industry may take, at least in the short run. 

But in the long run, I mean, we‘d still have electricity.  Lights would be on.  Yes, all the people would have them. 

We would all have computers and be on some kind of Internet right now, whether or not Windows was the way that it actually looks.  So I don‘t know how you can argue—actually argue that. 

CARLSON:  Is it—is it the inventor or the popularizer (ph)?  Henry Ford didn‘t invent the car, but he made it available to all Americans.  So in fact, who invented the car?  Does anybody even remember?  No.  Nobody remembers.

KELLERMAN:  You can be sure that with or without Henry Ford, we‘d all be driving cars right now.  With or without Bill Gates, maybe not this year but the next five, we would all be on the Internet, on computers... 

CARLSON:  Maybe or maybe not. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, we wouldn‘t be in Iraq right now without George Bush, would we?  I mean, you know, he‘s the commander in chief of this powerful army, unopposed by another superpower in history, who as you mentioned does things in a big sweeping way. 

CARLSON:  Yes.

KELLERMAN:  You know, it was actually...

CARLSON:  So George Bush is the most influential living American?

KELLERMAN:  At this moment, yes.  In another couple years, he is. 

CARLSON:  I would argue that Iraq was a response—I think an incorrect one, but a response nevertheless—to 9/11.  We wouldn‘t have had 9/11 without the Internet.  And the Internet would not be widespread without Windows.

Bill Gates brought about...

(CROSSTALK)

KELLERMAN:  A response by a good president would have been maybe—I don‘t know—go into Afghanistan and stay there until we got bin Laden.  But this is not that president.  It‘s someone else with another kind of agenda, who thinks of things differently and went into Iraq.  That‘s a very different choice. 

CARLSON:  My point is that Bill Gates is so influential we don‘t even notice his influence.  We constantly use Bill Gates-inspired products, products that he profits from and owns and don‘t even notice it. 

We notice the president.  We notice Iraq.  Those are big, obvious things.  But it is the small, the subtle things that really change the world. 

KELLERMAN:  Yes, it‘s pervasive.  No doubt about it.  Have you ever seen “War Games”, the Matthew Broderick film. 

CARLSON:  You watch a lot of movies.

KELLERMAN:  He was on the Internet before there was an Internet.  He almost caused a nuclear war in the movie.  And, you know, as soon as I saw that—I was 10, 11, 12 years old—I was going to get on that thing whether Bill Gates ever popularized it or not.  I was going to get on there.  It would have...

CARLSON:  Matthew Broderick, the most influential living America. 

KELLERMAN:  Don‘t you know Al Gore invented the Internet, Tucker?

CARLSON:  I did know that.

KELLERMAN:  Haven‘t you been paying attention?

CARLSON:  A wonder he didn‘t get elected president.  Max Kellerman. 

Thank you, Max.

KELLERMAN:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  Still ahead on THE SITUATION tonight, legislators call for a ban of Ann Coulter‘s new book.  Do they realize their posturing is helping to put her at the top of every best-seller list?  We‘ll discuss it. 

Plus, she‘s an accomplished porn star and a promising candidate for the governorship of Nevada.  But is Mimi Miagi missing her true calling?  We‘ll tell you what that is in just a minute. 

Before we go to break, though, it‘s tonight‘s installment of “The Good, The Bad and The Ugly”. 

“The Good” is the offer by Hooters restaurant to write FEMA a $200 check to reimburse that organization for a bottle of Dom Perignon champagne bought in a Hooters by a Hurricane Katrina victim with relief money. 

The purchase came to light in a report about fraudulent use of FEMA relief funds.  The biggest news to come out of this story is that you can get Dom Perignon at Hooters.  Don‘t try it.

“The Bad” is the standing of Louisiana Representative William Jefferson in Congress tonight.  House Democrats voted to boot Jefferson from the ways and means committee in light of a federal bribery investigation into—into the congressman.  He has not been indicted.  He maintains his innocence. 

Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi said, however, quote, “This is not about proof in a court of law.  This is about an ethical standard,” below which he apparently falls. 

We‘ve changed “The Ugly” to “The Quite Ugly” tonight.  You are now looking at Sergeant Jack Oliver of the Houston police department.  He‘s soon going to take a break from busting bad guys to have gender reassignment surgery. 

Sergeant Oliver has been on the force for 25 years.  He began hormone therapy a few months ago.  Oliver, who‘s a divorced father of five, will change his name legally to Julia Christina Oliver. 

That‘s tonight‘s “Good, Bad and the Ugly”.  We‘ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VANESSA MCDONALD, PRODUCER:  Coming up, we know the names of the accused in the Duke rape investigation.  So why shouldn‘t we know the name of the stripper making the accusations? 

Plus, why the World Cup is really a war on America.

CARLSON:  There‘s an enemy at our gates, and he‘s wearing shin guards. 

We‘re back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Hello.  Welcome back.  It‘s that time, time to play our voice mail.  You‘ve been calling all week, some of you not entirely sober.  We‘ve got the best of your calls on this machine. 

First up.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CALLER:  Hey Tucker Carlson.  It is Amit from Cloverdale, California.  You know soccer is a very simple game, and I think that Americans just cannot understand such simplicity.  Because they are complicated.  They want football and 10 yards and you don‘t understand the rules.  But soccer, you need a ball, you need a goal.  You score the goal.  You must watch soccer.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CARLSON:  So soccer is like a Zen rock garden.  Its beauty is in its simplicity. 

You know, soccer is a foreign innovation that foreigners are trying to foist on America, like Marmite or LeCar or French movies or the metric system.  And you know what the truth is?  We‘re not buying soccer. 

Soccer is wrong.  It‘s un-American, and Belgium and Lichtenstein and all the places where they love it, I‘m sorry.  Tough luck.  We‘re not buying it.  Sorry.

Next up. 

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CALLER:  Nick Sedor (ph) from St. Charles, Illinois.  I don‘t understand why people in the media seem to be afraid to say the Duke rape accuser‘s full name.  I mean, they‘ll all be saying it soon enough when she gets prosecuted for filing a false police report. 

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CARLSON:  That‘s a great question.  And it‘s not that people in the press are afraid of saying the accuser‘s name.  We, of course, all know her name.  I‘d be delighted to tell you.  It‘s that we‘ve been told not to.  We‘ve been told by—every news organization has told its employees not to name her name. 

I don‘t understand the reasoning.  It‘s something we‘ve debate on this show.  I think it‘s wrong.  Nothing I can do about it, though.  But the second there is a countersuit, the second this is all proved to be the huge gigantic hoax that it is, we‘ll be delighted to give you her name and her picture.

Next up.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) 

CALLER:  Ron Johnson in Birmingham, Alabama.  When you were taking up for Ann Coulter, I thought it was one of the worst things you‘ve every done.  She is one of the most evil women in the United States today, as far right-wing as you can possibly get.  And I hope no one purchases any of her books. 

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CARLSON:  I love this.  I love Ann Coulter.  I‘m not a huge personal fan about Ann Coulter, but I love how angry she makes the left.  “She‘s intolerant.  I hate her.  She should be killed.  I hate her, because she hates people.  She‘s a hater.  She‘s evil.” 

I mean, do you hear the internal irony in those statements?  If not take a deep breath and replay the show. 

Next up.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

CALLER:  Joshua Fief (ph), Columbus, Ohio.  Good lord.  Tucker, is there any way we can get Mimi to kind of sit in for you and like, you do the voice over dubs?  Because, buddy I got to say I kind of prefer looking at her. 

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CARLSON:  First things first, Joshua.  And let‘s be honest—out of all the porn stars running for statewide office I‘ve interviewed, I think she‘s the most capable.  She had the deepest grasp of public policy.  I thought she was charming and actually sort of impressive.  And hell, it‘s Nevada.  She may win. 

By the way, yes we received your calls about the pronunciation of that state.  It‘s not Nevada; it‘s Nevada.  So from here on out, Nevada.

And here‘s to you.  Coming up on THE SITUATION, guns come out in a neighborly dispute, and it is all caught on tape, which in fact we have.  Wait until you hear what they‘re arguing about.  We‘ll tell you when THE SITUATION comes back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time for “The Cutting Room Floor”. 

We‘ve received probably hundreds of e-mails already scolding us for comparing Stephen Hawking to mass murderers.  And let‘s just make it clear, we didn‘t mean to do that at all.  We like Stephen Hawking.

Look, the end of the week, and what better way to cap it off than with malt liquor?  Or Willie Geist.  Here he is.

WILLIE GEIST, PRODUCER:  Malt liquor in five minutes.  Just bear with me here for a minute.

Joey Vento, an exciting guest, the Geno‘s steakhouse owner, people are begging for more of him.  So we have more.  At the end of the interview... 

CARLSON:  Who‘s begging for more of him?

GEIST:  The public.  They‘re clamoring.

CARLSON:  Tucker said goodbye, thank you for coming on the show.  And here was his response.  Not goodbye.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VENTO:  Did you ever hear the immigration laws in Mexico?  Tough.  My God.  Look at this one.  Foreigners come into Mexico, illegal, will be hunted down and sent to jail, as advised previously.  Illegal aliens in Mexico are considered felons.  Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayer.  No welfare.  No Food Stamps.  No health care.  No government assistance.  My God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GEIST:  That man is passionate.  And incidentally, he was just named chief immigration correspondent at MSNBC.  So welcome aboard, Joey. 

CARLSON:  He would be so good. 

GEIST:  He‘d be great.

CARLSON:  He‘s ratings gold, I have the feeling.

IPods have made it possible for people to take their entire music libraries with them wherever they go.  They‘ve become a must-have accessory at the gym and on airplanes.  But do you really need to take your iTunes with you when you‘re in the john?  One company says, “Oh, yes.” 

Ed Tech Flash Technology has developed a combination iPod docking station and toilet paper dispenser.  The $99 device can be mounted to your wall and comes with moisture resistant speakers. 

GEIST:  Well, that‘s gross to start with.  Let me just say, Tucker, if you‘re spending so much time on the toilet that you need to bring your entire music library with you, it‘s time to see your physician. 

CARLSON:  Well, also there‘s going to be a surgical answer. 

GEIST:  No, you don‘t need it at the toilet.  It‘s a nice touch, but $99 is a little excessive for that. 

CARLSON:  Way excessive.  Get a life.

There‘s a quiet war being waged between Japan and South Korea.  It‘s a war we‘ve been covering closely here on “The Cutting Room Floor”.  The two nations are battling to see who can stage the more bizarre animal based World Cup promotional event.  Japan started with fish playing soccer.  South Korea fired back with parrots and guinea pigs.  Today, Japan countered with four crows playing the game with their beaks.  This is getting ugly. 

GEIST:  Wow.  What a game of one-upsmanship on the international stage.  This is starting to get ugly.  I worry about the next stage.  I mean, this could turn into a shooting war if we‘re not careful.  Who can be weirder, South Korea or Japan? 

Right now, again, South Korea out in front last week.  Japan pulls right up next to him. 

CARLSON:  Well, South Korea, they feel like it‘s mimic.  It‘s they‘re aping Japan.  With Japan you feel like it‘s bone deep.  It‘s real.

GEIST:  It‘s genuine.

CARLSON:  Right.

GEIST:  They mean it.

CARLSON:  It‘s not a put on.  Yes.

Next up, a case of a man taking his job way too seriously.  A member of the Port St. Lucie, Florida, condominium board has been arrested after he was caught on tape brandishing a gun to threaten tenants who are breaking a condo rule. 

Jay Hanson pulled his piece on a group of people who were drinking from glass beer bottles around the pool.  That is, of course, a violation of condominium policy.

GEIST:  All right, Tucker.  This is maybe a little bit over the top. 

But I bet we don‘t see a lot of glass around the pool from here on out. 

Right?  Whatever works. 

CARLSON:  Nobody shoplifts in Saudi Arabia. 

GEIST:  That‘s exactly right. 

He takes his job a little too seriously.  He‘s the guy when the teacher left him in charge for five minutes started, like, giving people detention and assigning homework.  Relax.  OK?

CARLSON:  A California man has dug himself quite a hole in his quest for gold.  Literally.  A couple of weeks ago the man‘s metal detector went crazy in his front yard, so naturally, he began to dig for gold. 

Long story short, the guy now has a 60-foot deep crater in his front yard.  The city has ordered him to stop digging.  Can he?  The 63-year-old will have to pay to have that hole filled. 

GEIST:  I think, Tucker, when you get five, 10 feet down, and there‘s no gold, pick another spot to dig.  Don‘t you think?

CARLSON:  No.  This is the slot machine principle, Willie.  I mean, if the first $300 doesn‘t do it, you know the next $300 is going to. 

GEIST:  Of course, of course.  Chase your losses.

Also, this is just an observation I have.  People with metal detectors tend to be multi-layered.  They‘re a strange group, walking around beaches in their socks and sandals with their metal detector. 

CARLSON:  I don‘t know.  There‘s something kind of sweet about them. 

I‘m not going to mock them, for the record.

GEIST:  I know.

CARLSON:  Willie Geist, you‘re a cruel man.  Happy weekend. 

GEIST:  See you.

CARLSON:  That‘s it for us tonight.  Thanks for watching.  We‘ll be back here Monday.  See you then. 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

Copy: Content and programming copyright 2006 NBC.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2006 Voxant, Inc.  ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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