updated 10/11/2007 11:07:41 AM ET 2007-10-11T15:07:41

Guests: Joan Walsh, Dana Milbank, Ron Paul

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  Tonight, it seems former President Jimmy Carter and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice have something in common.  They‘re getting tired of Vice President Dick Cheney.  Jimmy Carter on the BBC America Channel tonight lunged into the vice president and his incessant drum beat to war.


JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES:  It‘s been a disaster for our country.  I think he‘s been overly persuasive on President George Bush and quite often he has prevailed.  But, it was one of his main commitments was to go into Iraq under false pretenses and he still maintains that - those false pretenses are all accurate.  He still maintains somehow that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 9/11 attacks.  He still maintains that‘s - that Iraq somehow have had weapons of mass destruction.  Claims that have been dis-proven by all reasonable sources.


ABRAMS:  And now it seems Cheney may have a new foe within the administration—Condoleezza Rice.  According to “New York Times,” Cheney now wants to take a harder line with North Korea and Syria after Israeli intelligence indicated North Korea maybe behind the nuclear program within Syria.

Quote: “By contrast, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her allies within the administration have said they do not believe that the intelligence presented so far merits any change in the American diplomatic approach.”

My take.  Whether the Israelis are right or not isn‘t the point.  Cheney has no credibility anymore.  None.  He reads intelligence with the objectivity of a lawyer.  This is the man who said the insurgency was in its last throws in Iraq nearly three years ago.  The man who continually - continues to falsely suggest that Iraq was behind 9/11.  The man who wants to make all decisions behind closed doors without oversight.  He grappled with the reasonable and sober Colin Powell when he was Secretary of State.  And now, apparently, is doing the same with the current secretary, Condoleezza Rice.  It is sad that I am inclined to believe any administration official at odds with him.  I don‘t agree with Jimmy Carter on a lot of things but applaud him for speaking out against Cheney.

Joining us now, MSNBC political analyst, Pat Buchanan, Joan Walsh, editor-in-chief of Salon.com and Dana Milbank, MSNBC political analyst and political reporter of “Washington Post.”  Thanks all of you for coming on the program.  Appreciate it.  Alright, Joan, I mean - isn‘t the fundamental problem here and put aside you know, what you think about Cheney‘s policies and what you think about whether he or Condoleezza Rice is right.  The fundamental problem is—Cheney has zero, none, no credibility.

JOAN WALSH, SALON.COM:  Zero credibility.  You are absolutely right, Dan.  He‘s the one who said we were going to be greeted as liberators when we went into Baghdad.  He‘s the one who had his own office, the Office of Special Plans that he and Rumsfeld set up to stove pipe intelligence, to separate out intelligence that they didn‘t like because it didn‘t confirm their prejudices from the stuff they did like which turned out mostly to be false.  So, he has zero credibility on this.  Condoleezza Rice is no dove, obviously.  But she has become a proponent of reality-based policy making.

ABRAMS:  You know, Pat, it seems to me that as Cheney continues to sort of toe the far, far “right-wing-hawkish-neo-con” position, with each person who comes into various high level position in this administration, who‘s not of that complete and total belief they‘ve become - they‘re - they are at odds—someone like Powell, someone like Condoleezza Rice.


ABRAMS:  Right.

BUCHANAN:  But - yes - there is no doubt about it but it‘s been an old (ph) - it‘s been a written story here in town that Cheney and Condoleezza Rice are in battle over whether we should - we are going to have to take out those nuclear facilities in Iran.  Look, there is no doubt about it Cheney is the most powerful and influential vice president we‘ve had and he has no credibility maybe with Dan Abrams and with Joan, but he has a constituency of one.  And he still retains enormous influence with the president of the United States.  Not only that Dan, the president very much tilts toward his thinking it would not surprise me in the least that this president, in responding to Vice-President Cheney, conducts air strikes on Quds camps in Iran - just as he supported the invasion.

ABRAMS:  Dana, I want to ask you if you agree with that and I also want to make the point that - that is absolutely frightening if what Pat is saying is true?

DANA MILBANK, WASHINGTON POST:  Well, look.  There‘s a lot of people who are, indeed, very frightened of Dick Cheney, although he is becoming increasingly marginalized.  We now even have Dan Bartlett running around, the former White House communications director, giving speeches at 10 grand a pop making fun of Cheney and his sort of his autocratic ways in the way that nobody is able to cross him and what he says goes.  So, the battle with Condi Rice has been long-standing.  I think what‘s actually happening here—nobody is really changing roles as they sort of run out of ideologues in the administration, many of them has moved on.  You know, there only so many you can draw from here in Washington, so more centrists-realists are coming in.  He‘s got fewer tentacles throughout the administration but they are still there.

ABRAMS:  Isn‘t Pat right, Dana, that he still has that audience of one?

MILBANK:  He does.  I - we can‘t get inside President Bush‘s mind.  Clearly, there have been a lot of very public instances in which the president‘s followed the vice-president‘s advice and things have gone disastrously wrong.  But it would be very premature to write off this vice president.  He is frequently the only man in the room with Bush and nobody can control that one (ph).

ABRAMS:  Here is another piece of sound from Jimmy Carter tonight.


CARTER:  As usual (ph), Dick Cheney is wrong.  He is a militant who avoided any service of his own in the military.  And he has been most forceful in the last 10 years or more in fulfilling some of his more ancient commitments that the United States has a right to inject its power through military means in other parts of the world.  And here, he is trying again to promote what might very well be a counter-productive and a catastrophic military adventure.


ABRAMS:  Joan, is it helpful for those who oppose Cheney to have Jimmy Carter out there speaking against him?

JOAN WALSH, SALON.COM:  I think it is, Dan.  I know that the right is going to poke fun at Carter but he‘s been a great ex president.  He may have some things to be proud of during his presidency - the strong voice for human rights.  And Dick Cheney is a disaster.  He is a militant.  He has a lot to be ashamed of.  He did duck Vietnam because he had other priorities.  And he is now responsible for thousands of Americans dying in Iraq.

ABRAMS:  But Dana, I wonder whether having Carter out there just serves as Joan points out as fodder for the right to simply mock Carter and, also then mock the entire issue of Cheney and his influence.

MILBANK:  I don‘t think it helps Carter either.  He‘s become like Michael Moore.  It‘s sort of like this version of Tourette‘s syndrome every now and then.  He blurts out as the worst administration in history.

WALSH:  Well, it is Dana.

MILBANK:  That‘s fine to say.  But to have a previous president doing

that, I think it demeans Jimmy Carter to say it.  Leaving aside whether

it‘s truthful or not and it just allows everybody to say - yes, let‘s bring

back the Democrats of 1979

BUCHANAN:  Let me agree with Dana on this.  Look, there is a real, serious problem about whether we should go to war in Iran and I would agree with President Jimmy Carter if spoke out on this.  But to be attacking the vice president personally over his lack of military service and saying that he‘s the worst vice president.  He diminishes himself constantly and he has not been a good ex-president in my judgment.  He has not risen up to the stature he should.  If he wants to talk about war and peace, every right to and he should but he demeans himself.  What the job he‘s doing should be done by Howard Dean or something like that at the Democratic National Committee.

ABRAMS:  Well, keep in mind though, Pat -

WALSH:  I disagree.

ABRAMS:  Pat, here‘s Gerald fords.  Before his death, remember, he left - this only to be played publicly at the time of his death and here he is talking about Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

BUCHANAN:  Well I know that he did, wait.


GERALD FORD, FORMER PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES:  Rumsfeld and Cheney and the President made a big mistake in justifying going into war in Iraq.  They put the emphasis on weapons of mass destruction.


ABRAMS: So there you have Ford leaving final words in his sort of verbal spanking for Cheney.

WALSH:  I was glad you brought that up, Dan.

BUCHANAN:  That is sad.  The man was over 90 years old.  You could see his halting speech.  Gerald Ford was an excellent - I am sorry he did that.

ABRAMS:  Are you saying he wasn‘t of sound mind when he said that?

BUCHANAN:  What I‘m saying is I think that diminishes Gerald Ford and I‘m sorry to see it because he was a fine ex-president.

WALSH:  I absolutely disagree.  This is exactly what our country needs right now.

BUCHANAN:  Joan, this is personal.

WALSH:  It‘s been hijacked by extremist.  Gerry ford knew what he was saying.

BUCHANAN:  Well, that‘s for Joan Walsh to say that the former president of United States.

ABRAMS:  Let me bring back to Dana in a final issue on Condoleezza Rice debate.  Does she have enough influence at this point to have a major impact in order to stop Cheney?

MILBANK:  She has a growing influence.  We don‘t know yet if it‘s enough - whether it sort of reached that critical mass.  Let‘s see if, indeed, Cheney is successful in polling out of the ongoing negotiations with North Korea.  Let‘s see if there is green lighting towards Israel attacking Syria.  We will only know this when it actually happens.

ABRAMS:  And Pat, is your sense that within the administration, Cheney is still sort of a heroic figure?

BUCHANAN:  I think Cheney is still enormously powerful figure there are a lot of ex-aides who mock him.  But let me tell you this Dan, if Condoleezza Rice doesn‘t deliver in these negotiations or whatever they‘re doing diplomatically with Iran, then Cheney is saying - “When the diplomatic option fails, the only one left is the military option.”  I would not be surprised if George W. Bush took that option in 2008.

WALSH:   Except there is no Donald Rumsfeld by Cheney‘s side anymore. 

Secretary Gates does not support Cheney‘s world view.

BUCHANAN:  Well, the president -

WALSH:  That is very different.

BUCHANAN:   But the president has got the final call.

ABRAMS:  Alright.

WALSH:  That‘s true.

ABRAMS:  Joan Walsh, Dana Milbank, thanks a lot.  Appreciate it.

WALSH:  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  Pat is going to come back later for a special segment.

Up next: He is antiwar, anti-Bush and mocks the Republican candidates for president but is he running, too, as a Republican.  Presidential candidate Ron Paul joins us.  OK, so if the president would endorse him, would he take it?  I‘ll get him on the record either saying yes or no and we will take a look at how he has attacked this Republican field.

And another Republican politician unleashes a profanity-laced tirade during an interview after effectively being punked by a Norwegian comedian pretending to be a journalist.  The same thing happened to our friend, Pat Buchanan only he handled it a little better.  He‘ll be back to relive the gory details of facing off with Ali G.


ABRAMS:  Listening to presidential candidate Ron Paul, you could easily be fooled into believing is he not a Republican at all.  The Texas congressman is the only Republican candidate who is a clear and harsh critic of the Iraq war, believes the Bush administration is violating civil liberties and says Republicans haven‘t controlled spending.  And as did he last night, he gets to take on those other Republicans at every presidential debate.


CONGRESSMAN RON PAUL, (D) TEXAS:  This war is a mistake.  It was a mistake to go in.

We are losing this one.  We shouldn‘t be there.  We ought to just come home.

We have dug a hole for ourselves and dug a hole for our party.

It was a mistake to go.  It was a mistake to stay.

We can achieve much more in peace than we can ever achieve in these needless, unconstitutional, undeclared wars.

Why don‘t we run on George Bush‘s foreign policy of a humble foreign policy and no nation building.

OK, don‘t we remember that when you sacrifice liberty for security you‘ll lose both?  How many more you want to lose?  How long are you going to be there?  What do we have to pay to save face?  That‘s all we‘re doing is saving face.  It‘s time we came home.


ABRAMS:  Joining me now is Republican Presidential Candidate and Congressman Ron Paul.  Mr. Paul, thanks very much to come on.  We appreciate it.

PAUL:  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  Alright, we‘ve just watched all of these pieces of sound of you really sticking it to the other candidates.  First question I want to ask you, is do they even talk to you behind the scenes?  I mean, are these guys willing to say hello, before and after these debates?

PAUL:  Yes.  I mean, it‘s pretty cordial.  We don‘t discuss politics when we are off on the debates.  It‘s always hello and it‘s always cordial, there have never been any harsh words.

ABRAMS:  You‘ve got to be the guy they are not that interested in talking to outside of these debates.

PAUL:  Well, they don‘t want to hear about me in the debate. It is the big point.  They don‘t want the issues of the Republican Party brought to the forefront and ask the questions why don‘t we follow our own rhetoric.  And that‘s what I have been doing because I believe strongly that the Republican Party has stood for less government and I‘m determined to defend that position.

ABRAMS:  And if you don‘t get the nomination, will you run as a third party candidate?

PAUL:  I have no plans to do that.  I do not intend to do that.

ABRAMS:  Here‘s the name that we heard again and again and again last night and it is a familiar name.  I want to ask you about it.  Let‘s listen.


RUDY GUILIANI, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK:  You asked me about Hillary Clinton.

MITT ROMNEY, FORMER GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS:  Vis-as- vis  meeting with most likely Hillary Clinton.

GUILAINI:  Hillary Clinton was asked.

ROMNEY:  Of course that‘s what Hillary Clinton wants to do.

FRED THOMPSON:  Hillary Clinton.

ROMNEY:  Hillary care is government gets in.

GUILIANI:  Remember the Hillary bond program?

ROMNEY:  The Hillary Clinton plan?


ABRAMS:  That‘s all from last night.  Everyone‘s talking about Hillary Clinton.

PAUL:  Yes, you wonder what they‘re doing, you know.  If I wanted to

talk about her, you know, I could make a case for my candidacy being pretty

strong.  Because she‘s pretty weak on the war issue and she‘s ready to go

to war against Iran.  She‘s pretty weak on civil liberties when she

supports - the patriot -

ABRAMS:  Are you guys all just assuming that she‘s go going to be the Democratic nominee?

PAUL:  Well, at least the others who have spontaneously brought her name up must be assuming that but you know - four or three years ago I guess, Howard Dean was thought to be the nominee and quickly he faded.  So, I—my personal opinion is - is that she may well not be the nominee but I‘m not in that business of predicting.

ABRAMS:  How have you been able to raise the kind of money that you have been able to raise?  I think you‘ve been a surprise candidate in the sense that you are moving up comparatively.  Why do you think that‘s happening?

PAUL:  Well, I think the people are starved for this message I have limited government.  And they are disgusted with what the Republicans have done.  They were elected in 2004 and 2000 to shrink the size of government.  And what did they do?  They expanded it.  And they know that I will do what I say.

ABRAMS:  Do you want President George Bush‘s endorsement?

PAUL:  I don‘t - I have - I - that hasn‘t crossed my mind because I

know that wouldn‘t come.  I mean, he didn‘t -

ABRAMS:  Would you want it?  If he said—I want to know if you want my endorsement?

PAUL:  I would lose my credibility.  I think it got to hurt me that he wouldn‘t offer it and I wouldn‘t ask him.

ABRAMS:  You would say no to President Bush‘s endorsement?

PAUL:  No.  I would lose all credibility because I‘ve run against his policies.  I‘ve been coming from the Conservative viewpoint and he‘s from the Neo-Conservative viewpoint.  So, I don‘t represent the Neo-Conservatives, I represent traditional Conservatives and the Constitution.  And he really has, you know, supported another position and also the reason the Republican Party is in shambles.  So, I would say that it wouldn‘t do me any good to with his endorsement.

ABRAMS:  Ron Paul, thanks very much for taking the time.  I appreciate it.

PAUL:  Appreciate it.

ABRAMS:  Coming up: A woman survives a raging inferno above her head -

by holding her breath under water in a swimming pool.

And, later: Larry King asks a guest to strip while his colleague Rick Sanchez shows us again how he got tasered for television.  It‘s reality TV over at the most trusted name in news, up next in beat the press.


ABRAMS:  It‘s time for tonight‘s “Beat the Press.”  Our daily look back at the absurd and sometimes amusing perils of live TV.  First up:

According to Headline News‘ Glenn Beck understanding the looming crisis in Iran is real easy.


GLENN BECK, HEADLINE NEWS:  Iran has long been the puppet master in the Middle East.  You don‘t have to take my word for it, just watch any episode of “Law and Order.”  Use the thinking, you know, that helps them solve all the tough cases.  Iran has the means, the motive and the opportunity.


ABRAMS:  Wow!  Who knew it‘s that simple?  All I have to do is watch “Law and Order.”  Wouldn‘t it be great if the rest of us lived in that simple world?

Next up: Larry King in the house with Pamela Anderson‘s ex-husband Kid Rock.  Larry asking the questions all Americans want answered on the most trusted name in news.


LARRY KING, TV HOST:  Do you have tattoos?


KING:  Any we can see?

KID ROCK:   I have got this one.  It‘s probably going to mess my mike over up.

KING:  Oh, I like that.

Move your hair, kid.

Bad ass, whew! That‘s you.


ABRAMS:  Larry. loved to say that, didn‘t he?  Finally, his colleague my pal, Rick Sanchez likes to reminisce and replay a television event most of us would be ashamed of.


RICK SANCHEZ:  I know a thing or two about tasers.  I tested one for the benefit of the viewing public here at CNN for that millionth time let‘s take a look.

I‘m about to receive 50,000 volts of electricity.  Do it.

Stop! (INAUDIBLE) Oh.  It hurts!

All right, enough of that.  Stop showing that, OK?  I didn‘t want that on there.  My producers made me show it.


ABRAMS:  Yes.  Your producers made you show it.  I‘m sure they made you do it, too.  Rick, I like you.  I always have.  Some advice—next time someone at CNN asks you to do something like for example undergo tooth extraction with that nova cane, for story of dental rip-offs you can say - no, no, I won‘t do it.

We need your help beating the press.  If you‘ve see anything amusing, absurd or just right or wrong, go to our web site—Abrams.msnbc.com.  Leave us a tip on the box.  Please include the name of the show and the time you saw the item.

Coming up: Breaking News—we‘re just getting in 911 calls from that shooting at a Cleveland high school today.

And: Two boys held captive sexually abused and tortured one of them for years.  Now, the monster has pled guilty and the parents are speaking out.

Plus: Danny Bonaduce now being sued for this move at an award show by the man who went down.  Danny tells us his side of the story coming up.


ABRAMS:  New gruesome details about two boys held captive, sexually abused, almost killed, one boy had to pose as this monster‘s son so his life would be spared.  Justice is served today and we‘ll hear from that boy.  But first the latest news.



ABRAMS:  Back now with some breaking news.  We are getting new information about a school shooting today in Cleveland where a suspended student went on a shooting rampage, wounding two students and two teachers before police say he killed himself.  Police saying tonight they believe the victims were specifically targeted by the gunman who had recently been suspended from the school.  We‘ve also had just gotten in the 911 calls describing the chaotic moments following the shooting. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  There is a shooting at the Successtech academy, and my son is trapped in one of the back rooms. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER:  OK, Ma‘am, we have cars on the way over there, OK?  Your son is trapped in a room, you say? 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER:  OK.  I‘m sorry, calm down, OK? 

Where is he calling you from? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  He is calling me from his classroom on his cellphone that only has 15 minutes on it. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER:  OK.  Ma‘am, does anybody know who is doing the shooting there? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  No.  He is in the back but they just shot somebody in his room.  And he doesn‘t want me to come up there because he doesn‘t know where the shooter actually is. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER:  OK.  We have cars out there. 

That‘s Successtech at 1440 lakeside? 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER:  OK.  What‘s your son‘s name? And what‘s his cellphone number? 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER:  OK.  Do you have any idea what room he is in? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  No.  I forgot to go ask him. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER:  OK.  All right.  OK.  All right. 

We have cars on the way, OK? 


ABRAMS:  Fortunately no one died in the shootings except for the gunman himself.  In Missouri, former pizza shop manager Michael Devlin pled guilty to six counts of making sexually explicit photographs with a boy.  He has already been sentenced to multiple life terms with kidnapping two boys.  One of them Shawn Hornbeck who was held captive for more than four years.  Today, Shawn‘s stepfather said his son finally feels safe. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He is ecstatic.  It‘s a great relief for him, a great burden off of his shoulders to, number one, not have to testify, naturally.  And, number two, to know that it‘s physically impossible for that man to ever get near him ever, ever again. 


ABRAMS:  For Shawn Hornbeck, the terror began October 6, 2002, when Devlin kidnapped him while he was bike riding to a friend‘s house.  Hear now the details from the family, the prosecutors, and Shawn himself.


JOHN RUPP, WASHINGTON COUNTY PROSECUTOR:  After he kidnapped him, he performed certain acts of sodomy on the way.  He pulled off on the side of the road.  And attempted to sodomize Shawn but was unable to complete it.  So he took him up to his apartment in Kirkwood where he kept the boy, literally, tied and gagged on a futon with the only exceptions to feed him, give him water, food, that type of thing, or to do other things. 

SHAWN HORNBECK, KIDNAPPING VICTIM (voice over):  I prayed to God that one day I would be back with my family every night, and I crossed myself every night. 

PAM AKERS, VICTIM‘S MOTHER:  I felt the deepest loneliness, the most anger and the deepest loss and betrayal that any person could feel.  My family world was turned upside down, inside out. 

CRAIG AKERS, VICTIM‘S STEPFATHER:  The next words were, “We think we found Shawn.  We are 95 percent sure that we found Shawn and that he is alive.”  And those were the sweetest words I ever heard in my life. 

JUDGE:  Combined with the state sentences already handed out this week, this plea means that Michael Devlin will never walk free again, and that he will never hurt another child. 

P. AKERS:  I want him to look me straight in the eye so he can see the anger and the hurt that our family has gone through.  And just so he knows, we‘re still standing.  We are standing strong.  And he is the one that is going down. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We are just so glad that this is the outcome, that the monster is caged and will remain caged. 


ABRAMS:  Michael Devlin will be sentenced officially on December the 21st.  The scene in Cary, North Carolina today after a contractor apparently drilled into a gas line.  Now imagine a ball of fire like that just inches from your head.  That‘s exactly what happened to a woman in Abilene, Texas.  She miraculously walked away with just minor burns.  Her amazing story, along with the story of a baby who survived a category 5 tornado, are part of the new “5” Series on MSNBC tonight. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  Rita Francis, home alone, sees and smells the gas spewing from the pipeline.  Surprisingly calm, she calls 911. 

RITA FRANCIS, FIRE SURVIVOR (on the phone):  This is Rita Francis.  I believe we have a pipeline that‘s ruptured. 

IDENTIFIED FEMALE 911 RESPONDER (on the phone):  What type of pipeline? 

FRANCIS:  I think it‘s a gas pipeline.  I can smell it. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  But from her backyard, she watches the wind suddenly change direction, sending the cloud directly her way. 

FRANCIS:  I looked up and there was this huge cloud of gas over the top of me.  And at that point, I knew there wasn‘t any place for me to run. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  She has to think and act immediately to beat the odds.  She has only one chance of survival, small backyard lap pool only four feet deep. 

FRANCIS:  Here I am.  There, is nothing I can do, you know.  If I get in the pool and underwater, when the thing explodes, then I might have a chance. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  Just as Rita jumps into the pool, something sparks that cloud, triggering a massive blast that shakes the ground and lights up the sky.  Instantly Rita‘s home and everything around it flashes into flames.  She holds her breath as long as she can.  But the need for air drives her to lift her head out of the water.  Instantly her hair catches fire from the searing flames hovering low over the pool. 

FRANCIS:  I came up, it was unbearable.  It was nothing but fire. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  Rita says the firestorm seems to abate so she splashes water on the concrete to cool it and hoists herself out of the pool.  She walks bare foot across the smoldering field, straight to some astonished firefighters.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  A huge storm looms over Oklahoma. 

ROBERT JOLLY(ph), BRADY COUNTY DEPUTY SHERIFF:  Back up, back up, back up. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  Brady County deputy sheriff Robert Jolly(ph) is chasing this catastrophic storm.  The chaos and danger are captured by his patrol car camera as he evades power lines, trying to keep pace with the ferocious funnel cloud.  The monster category 5 tornado is one of the most powerful on record, as much as a mile wide, with winds as high as 318 miles an hour. 

Winds of such power can flatten buildings, lift and hurl massive structures as if they were toys.  And the tornado is about to bear down on the little community of Rich Creek.  Although some will not survive this night, one will beat the odds.  Dead center in the storm‘s sites are a baby girl, 10-month-old Aliyah(ph), her mother, Amy Craigo(ph), and three other members who decided a closet would be the safest place to try to wait out the storm. 

AMY CRAIGO, TORNADO SURVIVOR:  We heard the tornado coming.  And it just started ripping the house apart.  I thought I was going to die, and it just hurt so bad.  You are just flying through the air like you don‘t weigh nothing. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER:  And then in, a matter of seconds, it‘s over.  The random destruction of the tornado comes to a halt. 

AMY CRAIGO, TORNADO SURVIVOR:  I looked around and my house was gone. 

There was nothing but just a concrete slab. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  There is no sign of anyone

in her family either.  They all had hidden in the same closet.  Everyone,

including her baby daughter, had simply disappeared.  The five family

members seeking safety in that closet had been thrown all over the

neighboring countryside.  Amy, found miles away, is now hospitalized.  The

father is in a state of shock.  Her mother is dead.  Her boyfriend

unconscious and badly hurt, and their tiny baby Aliyah(ph), nowhere to be

found.  Then, in the middle of all that rubble -

JOLLY(ph):  I‘d seen something move out of the corner of my eye.  I looked and it is either a doll or a baby.  I reach under there and it‘s warm, so I pulled it out. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  It is Aliyah(ph), alive and resting under a pile of debris. 

Jolly(ph) carefully examines the baby on the hood of his patrol car, forgetting that his police camera is recording his extraordinary first moments with Aliyah(ph). 

JOLLY(ph):  Are you okay?  Huh? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice over):  Incredibly baby Aliyah(ph) escaped death.


ABRAMS:  The new MSNBC series “5” airs tonight at 10:00 p.m.  Eastern with five extreme survival stories followed at 10:30 by five vacation nightmares.  Up next, Danny Bonaduce broke another reality star‘s teeth during a fight at the TV reality awards show.  We knew that.  Well, now today is he being sued.  We will hear from Danny about what he says really happened.  And, later, a New York City councilman loses his cool after being the subject of a comedian‘s fake interview with ridiculous questions.  Pat Buchanan faced the same thing with a comedian Ali G.  He‘s with us tonight in tonight‘s Winners and Losers.



ABRAMS:  Did you know Danny Bonaduce‘s first credit was as Opie‘s friend on the Andy Griffith Show?  Up next, Bonaduce, now being sued after scrapping with a fellow reality show star in an award show.  Danny tells us his side of the story up next.



ABRAMS:  It is the fight that just keeps on kicking.  Danny Bonaduce, the Partridge family child star being sued by former “Survivor” contestant, Johnny Fairplay, for that fight.  It happened at a reality TV award show last week.  Fairplay‘s teeth were apparently broken in the head-first slam to the floor.  His lawsuit today alleges battery, emotional distress and negligence.  But the DA has already ruled that Bonaduce acted in self-defense.  Now hear Bonaduce‘s side of the story. 


DANNY BONADUCE, SURVIVOR CONTESTANT:  What happened really was I went on there, because it‘s not only a reality show, it‘s the reality show awards.  Not anything can happen.  Anything is expected to happen.  It should happen.  All night long it did.  People wandered off and on the stage.  Everybody was having a wonderful time and, whatever this kid‘s name is - Jimmy - just went up ...

ABRAMS:  Johnny Fairplay. 

BONADUCE:  Thank you.  Like it will matter tomorrow.  Went on stage and instead of reading the prompter, he just started saying, “Why are you booing me?  Why are you booing me?  Why are you booing me?”  And I remembered why they were booing him.  And I walked on stage.  He handed me the mike.  And I said, “They‘re booing because they hate you.”  And then I just walked completely off the stage and left. 

And he came running after me, grabbed me from leaving the stage, turned me around and went, “Wait right here.” and backed up five steps, then ran at me.  And I was thinking, wow, should I pop this guy on his way in?  Is he going to hurt me?  And I move - I like to wear a lot of junk jewelry.  I‘m not wearing that today because it looks stupid on real shows like this.  But I like all these, you know, pirates and stuff like that, and I thought, I can‘t hit him with that. 

So I put my hands at my sides literally like a tin soldier telling him, I don‘t want any part of this.  If you hurt me, you‘re going to look stupid.  Don‘t hit me.  Look at my hands, they‘re at my sides.  And sure enough, a bad call on my part, because when he jumped up and grabbed his legs around me, he pinned my arms to my sides, and then he grabbed around my neck.  And I thought, “What is this nut bag going to do to me now?”  So I just freed arms.  And when I freed my arms he just went flying.  But I thought he was fine, like he just went over and be fine.  And it turned out he got hurt.

ABRAMS:  Joining me now is Attorney Julia Morrow.  All right, Julia, this seems like a classic waste of time case where some lawyer wants to get a little publicity and says, “Oh, I‘ll take this ridiculous lawsuit being filed by Johnny Fairplay.” 

JULIA MORROW, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  That‘s exactly what it is, Dan.  I mean, look at that tape.  Fairplay is actually humping Bonaduce like a dog.  He is lucky Bonaduce didn‘t tune him out more than he did.  This is clearly a case of self-defense.  Bonaduce was walking away from him.  He was attacked.  He didn‘t try to hurt the guy.  He just wanted him to get off of him.  And this lawsuit is a form of extortion, as far as I‘m concerned. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  I‘m going to ask them to slow mo this, because if

this ever went to trial, they would play it frame by frame.  It‘s not going

to go to trial, but if they did -


ABRAMS:  All right.  So that‘s the end result.  But, you know, I would

like to sort of see the beginning again as he is coming towards him - There

we go.  I don‘t understand how they can claim that somehow the guy who

approaches Bonaduce and, as you put it, starts humping him -

MORROW:  Humping him. 

ABRAMS:  Right? 

MORROW:  Yes, like a sexual assault. 

ABRAMS:  I mean - Bonaduce - I mean really - it could almost be that Bonaduce could sue him. 

MORROW:  Exactly.  And talk about emotional distress.  What about the humiliation Bonaduce might feel, you know, being on national television being humped by Fairplay?

ABRAMS:  Here‘s the piece of sound that Danny was talking about that occurred right before the fight. 


JOHNNY FAIRPLAY, FORMER “SURVIVOR” CONTESTANT:  Hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.  Who‘s booing?  Who‘s booing?  Are you guys really booing? 


BONADUCE:  They‘re booing because they hate you.


FAIRPLAY:  That‘s a good thing, right?  Danny, Danny.



ABRAMS:  So there it is all in context, Julia.  It doesn‘t change anything, does it? 

MORROW:  No.  In fact, it just goes to show this guy is such a desperate publicity hound that he‘ll even take negative publicity.  He‘ll stand on a stage with everyone hating him and booing him just because he‘s standing on a stage and people are paying attention to him. 

ABRAMS:  Julia Morrow, thanks a lot.  Appreciate it.

MORROW:  Thanks, Dan. 

ABRAMS:  Up next, will tonight‘s big winner or loser of the day be a kangaroo who hopped into the middle of a drag race; middle school students who should have skipped out on a nasty cat fight; or a politician who jumped all over a comedian posing as a reporter?  Pat Buchanan will tell us about his similar run-in with comedian Ali G.   Winners and Losers is just a hop, skip and a jump away.



ABRAMS:  It‘s time for tonight‘s Winners and Losers for this 10th day of October 2007. 

Loser, a pair of Ohio middle school girls who allegedly orchestrated attack on fellow classmate, filming it and posting it online. 



ABRAMS (voice over):  The 13-year-old apparently pounced on the girl over a dirty look.  Now she is charged with assault for the Rocky-like attack. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He is winning. 


ABRAMS:  Winner, a dirty looking dog named Rocky, on the run for a year, now back safely in his Utah home.  The missing pooch was spotted in San Diego last spring but was only found last week roaming the streets of El Paso, Texas with his tags intact, 1500 miles away.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You‘re so wise.  You are like a miniature Buddha covered in hair. 


ABRAMS:  Winner, a death defying kangaroo who nearly met his maker on Australian racetrack over the weekend.  The running roo got loose in the middle of a qualifying race and somehow managed to dodge the dodges heading right for him. 


ABRAMS:  The lucky road weary roo avoided becoming roadkill by just a hair.  Loser, the other 58 million kangaroos across Australia, for whom hitting the road may be the only means to escape death.  They‘re now being targeted by the environmental group Green Peace which says killing the animals is necessary to cut down on global warming.  The activists say eating roos rather than cows will cut down on greenhouse gas emissions. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  This is - whoops.  This is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I guess, you kind of assume, the boxing kangaroo.  Whoops!


ABRAMS:  But the big winner of the day?  Norwegian supermarket chain coop, Norway, now enacting a new store policy.  You don‘t like the food you bought?  Return it for your money back, even if you have already eaten it.  The chain concedes it‘s a ploy for new customers that trust that Norwegian consumers will play fair.  The big loser of the day? 


ABRAMS (voice over):  Norwegian comedian Pia Haroldson, now accused of not playing fair and violating the trust of New York City Councilman, James Oddo.  During a recent interview, Haroldson found herself on a receiving end of a profanity-laced tirade after she asked intentionally ridiculous questions pretending she was ignorant, an effort to illicit equally ridiculous answers. 

PIA HAROLDSON:  Isn‘t this against the constitution that Barack Obama runs for presidency, considering the fact that he is not an American citizen? 

JAMES ODDO, NEW YORK CITY COUNCILMAN:  He is an American citizen.  He is a U.S.—he is a United States senator. 

HAROLDSON:  I read somewhere that he is African-American. 

ODDO:  African-Americans are citizens of this country. 

HAROLDSON:  All right.  That‘s good to know.  Can you say a little bit more about the Democrats?  Do you really think that Hillary stands a chance after that embarrassing incident with the cigar? 

ODDO:  Hey, Chris?  What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) do you have me in with these (EXPLETIVE DELETED)?  Throw these people out of my office. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I will explain. 

ODDO:  Would you get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of here.  Get (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of my office.  Get out of my office.  What is this nonsense?  Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of here.  Get out of here.  Get out of my office.  Get out of my office.  Hillary Clinton, cigar?  Barack Obama?  Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of my office.  What is this?  Do you think I have time to waste on this (EXPLETIVE).  Get out of my office before I throw you (EXPLETIVE) out of my office and I take your cameras and throw them out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) window.  All right.  I don‘t know what kind of (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you are playing, but that‘s not the game I (EXPLETIVE DELETED) play.  All right.  (EXPLETIVE DELETED)  Get out of my office before I beat the (EXPLETIVE) right now.  (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Get out of my office. 


ABRAMS:  Here now, MSNBC political analyst Pat Buchanan who fell victim to a similar stunt when the British comedian known as Ali G.  pretended to be interviewing him about the war in Iraq. 


ALI G., BRITISH COMEDIAN:  Does you think that Saddam‘s ever was able to make these weapons of mass destruction or, as they was called BLT‘s. 

PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  Yes, at one time he was using BLT‘s on the Kurds in the north. 

ALI G.:  You better listen up to the words of my man Buchanan, because

ain‘t know nothings about America and the election.  Listen up, word up,

keep it real West Side.  (UNINTELLIGIBLE) yourself.  ‘



ABRAMS:  All right, Pat.  It seemed pretty clear in your instance that that you knew he was messing with you. 

BUCHANAN:  I knew there was something up.  I didn‘t know for sure what it was.  I mean he came out to my house.  They had the formal thing looked like a BBC letter.  They set up in the den.  And then the guy hands me 200 bucks and says I want you to know the interviewer is enormously popular.  He is one of these rap singers in the east end of London, and this guy comes in about 6‘4”.  And he‘s got this siren suit and goggles and so I said “Look, all right.  I mean, I‘ve gone through strange things before in campaigns.  And he is very - as you can tell, the guy is very, very bright. 

ABRAMS:  And what did you think -this guy, Oddo, this politician, really behaved terribly, right?  I mean, bottom line is, laugh it off.  Walk out.

BUCHANAN:  He has fairly limited vocabulary.  There‘s a lot of redundancies.  But I can‘t - look, I can‘t blame him.  He‘s a busy guy.  Apparently, he‘s going to run for - he‘s going to run for supervisor of the bureau in Brooklyn or - and he‘s given up his time to somebody, and look, this lady came in.  She didn‘t have any wit with her at all.  There was no imagination.  It was just stupid.  And he picked up on it.  I mean, he picked up on it in about 15 seconds.  I was an hour and a half into that interview, and I thanked him.  When at the kitchen, I said, “Julie, I think something‘s not upfront about what I just did.” 

ABRAMS:  Well, this is what happened at the end of your segment with Ali G.


BUCHANAN:  Listen up.  Me name the Buchanan.  Me knows not things about politics, kicking (UNINTELLIGIBLE), yo better realize that nothing be a better way yo kicks.  West side.  Aye. 


BUCHANAN:  You know, I edited that because - I edited that and said I‘m not going to read it unless you get the bad language out.  And I said OK, we‘ll read it. 

ABRAMS:  So he had written this thing for you. 

BUCHANAN:  Yes.  And I said, “Would you read it?”  He said, “Look at the end.  You know, you do radio shows.  They say, Pat, can you say the following things?”  I say, “Sure, I‘ll do it.  You give me a tag line and stuff.”  So we tell him we‘d do it for him.  All right.  OK.

ABRAMS:  Well, pat, you had a much better attitude than that this guy, James Oddo, who said that he is apologetic for his language but he doesn‘t regret the sentiment.  They were mocking Americans, I mean, you know.  He‘s got to lighten up.

BUCHANAN:  Looks like a catholic boy.  I think he‘s got to go to confession.  

ABRAMS:  Pat Buchanan, as always, thanks for coming on this show.  


ABRAMS:  I should have thought of something funny to end this show with.  Right.  What is the - Respect.  Respect.  That‘s all the time we have for tonight.  Up next, MSNBC‘s new series the “5.”  See you tomorrow.



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