updated 10/26/2007 12:47:33 PM ET 2007-10-26T16:47:33

Guests: Dan Klotz(ph), Ellis Allen(ph), Sarah Baxter, Shannon Conwell, Tyler Conwell

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  Come up in a moment the administration announces new

sanctions against Iran and accuses their military of proliferating weapons

of mass destruction.  Sound familiar?  We take a look at what they said

leading up to the war with Iraq, and compare it to what they‘re saying now

the language, the words, sure sound similar.

But first, BREAKING NEWS tonight, new California arson arrests.  Late today, two more people, an adult and a juvenile who lived in the same house, booked after they allegedly started a brush fire in a San Diego suburb.  There have now been at least four people arrested on arson charges.

Also tonight, authorities found four bodies near the Mexican border, victims of the blaze.  Fifteen major fires still burning tonight from Malibu to Mexico consuming just under half a million acres and destroying over 2,000 homes and businesses.  NBC‘s Jay Gray is in Rancho Bernardo, a neighborhood of San Diego.  Jay, it is just so hard to accept that some of this may be arson.  What do we know?

JAY GRAY, NBC NEWS, RANCHO BERNARDO, CA:  Yes, Dan, and imagine coming home for the first time to a place like this, completely burned out.  And even though there is not arson suspected in this fire, the people who are working their way back into these neighborhoods very frustrated about that.  As you talked about a man and a teenage boy arrested after setting a brush fire, only burned 200 square feet before firefighters got it put out.  They are in jail right now and juvenile detention.  Two other people have been arrested and we know the Santiago fire just east of Irvine they are still looking for a suspect in that fire and the reward for information leading to arrest has just been up to $250,000.  Let‘s talk more about what‘s going on here.  People finally getting a chance to come in and see what these fires left behind.  You see the red plaque behind me - “Unsafe, Do not enter.”  It sounds kind of ridiculous that the city would put that on something like this but actually the neighbors say that‘s a good sign.  It means people are coming in, they‘re taking a look and we‘ve seen that a lot today, a lot of activity here and a lot of people that we‘ve talked to say—we‘re coming back.  They‘re very frustrated.  They say they don‘t have a house but this is their home.  They‘re going to rebuild.  They‘re going to stay here, Dan.

ABRAMS:  Alright, Jay Gray, at least some good news, thanks a lot, appreciate it.

Moving on, how did Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, with all the security assigned to her, almost get assaulted by a protester yesterday?  Look I‘m no security expert, but maybe Diplomatic Security Capitol Hill Police, I don‘t know, maybe you need to rethink their approach to protecting arguably, the most powerful woman in the world?  A member of the public basically able to get her hands around the Secretary of State‘s head and neck?  Here now former secret service agent Robert Brenner.  Thanks for coming on the show.  We‘ll continue to show pictures as we talk about it.  Isn‘t it alarming that something like this can happen?

ROBERT BRENNER, FMR SECRET SERVICE AGENT:  Well it‘s a big concerning, Dan, but I think one has to understand the environment, that once an outside agency such as Diplomatic Security Service of State Department goes into a place like the Capitol, it‘s a controlled environment in the sense that the Capitol Police are in charge, the big umbrella of security they provide so once again, that is the main topic. 

That these people -

ABRAMS:  Right.  Putting aside who‘s to blame, you know, as a practical matter, this is a public hearing.  Is there a way that you would go about protecting someone like the Secretary of State, be you in charge of the Capitol police, be you in charge of her security detail in a place like this?

BRENNER:  Well,  I looked at the video earlier today when I was notified about this interview and I think the reaction was quick.  I think that the DSS agents have responded very quickly and what I was getting to before is the idea that this person could have had a weapon was neutralized by the security in the screening functions of the Capitol police.  I think most of what you saw was disorderly conduct and close to an assault.

ABRAMS:  So, bottom line you think they did a pretty good job?

BRENNER:  I think they‘ve done an outstanding job, yes.

ABRAMS:  Alright, Robert Brenner, thanks very much for taking the time.  Appreciate it.

BRENNER:  You‘re welcome.

ABRAMS:  So, a day after getting physically attacked on Capitol Hill, the Secretary of State announced today, new tough sanctions against Iran and the administration accused the Revolutionary Guard of proliferating weapons of mass destruction.  Sound familiar?  Well it should, in particular when you listen to the words they used, and then compare it to what they‘re saying now.


GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT:  Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof, the smoking gun.  It could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.

I told people that if you‘re interested in avoiding World War III it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon.  And I take the threat of Iran with a nuclear weapon very seriously.

DICK CHENEY, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT:  The Iraqi regime has in fact been very busy enhancing its capabilities in the field of chemical and biological weapons and they continue to pursue the nuclear program they began so many years ago.

And now of course we have an inescapable reality of Iran‘s nuclear program, a program they claim is strictly for energy purpose to which they have worked hard to conceal, a program carried out in complete defiance of the international community and resolutions of the U.N. Security Council.  Iran is pursuing technology that could be used to develop nuclear weapons. 

The world knows this.

BUSH:  The Iraqi people cannot flourish under a dictator that is threatening.

The message to the Iranian people is that your leaders are making decisions that are isolating you in the world, thereby denying you a brighter future.

The world has also tried economic sanctions, and watched Iraqis billions of dollars in illegal oil revenues to fund more weapons purchased, rather than providing for the needs of the Iraqi people.

CHENEY:  The Security Council has twice imposed sanctions on Iran and called on the regime to cease in enriching uranium, yet the regime continues to do so and continues to practice delay and deception in an obvious attempt to buy time.

ABRAMS:  Air America host Rachel Maddow is with us.  Rachel, if you can actually hear their words over that loud music which I think you probably can, it still seems that the language is very similar, fair comparison, right?

RACHEL MADDOW, AIR AMERICA:  Well, yes, to me it sounds like if you liked the Iraq war you‘re going to love the Iran war, yet another war, pre-emptive war, preventative so-called war in the Middle East, on another country that has nothing to do with 9/11.

ABRAMS:  But the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, the exact same language that I think led a lot of people to say this is, when it came to Iraq, we need to go in.  If Saddam Hussein is creating weapons of mass destruction, we need to be able to go in.  Now, we don‘t actually have more evidence with regard to Iran but the fact that they are using the exact same language and rationale, and the exact same bellicose (ph)language, it gets scary.

MADDOW:  Yes, and it‘s compounded by the fact that we are still in the war in Iraq, and we‘re getting all sorts of language that‘s emerging today from Ryan Crocker in Baghdad, from Condoleezza Rice in Washington saying the barrier to peace in Iraq is Iran, our big enemy now is the Shiite militias, Iran funding the Shiite militias.  And so, in order to get peace in Iraq, we have to attack Iran.  Now presenting that compounding the problem of trying to use one war that they started under false pretenses to start another one.

ABRAMS:  Let me ask you, what is a practical matter, what do these sanctions do?  We always talk about sanctions and I think many people believe they don‘t have any impact.  These are pretty tough sanctions.

MADDOW:  Yes, I think that they will have an economic impact in Iraq—in Iran, excuse me, I think in terms of the political impact though, it might be a backfire.  I think the only thing that is really cementing Ahmadinejad‘s grip on power in Iran right now is the attention that the international community and the right in the United States in particular is paying to him.  They‘re aggrandizing Ahmadinejad in a way he never would have been able to do on his own.  He‘s not even the head of his country‘s armed services.  There is no commander in chief role that he plays there but they turned him into a boogeyman in a way that‘s made him more powerful than anything else about him.

ABRAMS:  Do you blame the Democrats signing on to that resolution that declared Iran a sponsor of terrorism in.

MADDOW:  Yes, those who signed onto it, yes.  I mean, I blame the Democrats in general for letting something called the Kyle-Lieberman amendment get out of the United States Senate that‘s supposedly controlled by Democrats but anyone who signed on to it I think has a lot to answer for it.

ABRAMS:  Alright, Rachel, stay with us.  Thanks a lot.

Up next: Is Rudy Giuliani quickly becoming the most Conservative presidential candidate?  Well, apparently he‘s now palling around with the most Conservative thinkers, throwing around the far right wing buzzwards and turning around on some of the issues that made him seem moderate.  What is happening to Rudy?

And a fugitive on the run for 28 years finally caught on camera.  He first tries to deny it‘s him.  His old picture gives him away.  We got the tape and the guys who made the bust coming up.


ABRAMS: For those who think Rudy Giuliani may be the most moderate of the Republican candidates think again.  The formerly pro-choice, pro-gun control and pro-gay rights mayor is frantically trying to change his image and that could me he is now the candidate most ready for war.  NBC‘s Ron Allen has the story.


RON ALLEN, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice over):  On the campaign trail, New York‘s former mayor takes a hard line when it comes to facing America‘s adversaries like Iran.

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  If I‘m president of the United States, I guarantee you,we will never find out what they will do if they get nuclear weapons, because they‘re not going to get nuclear weapons.

ALLEN:  Among the Republican hopefuls, it is Rudy Giuliani who is most closely surrounded himself with so-called Neo-Conservative foreign policy thinkers, many from the Bush-Cheney administration.  This morning‘s “New York Times” looks for advisers who called for profiling Muslims at airports, another who favors ending the U.S. ban on carrying out assassination and the author of “The Case for Bombing Iran” in “Commentary” magazine, his comments posted online.

NORMAN PODHORETZ, COMMENTARY MAGAZINE:  All of the other available options have proved to be sterile.

ALLEN:  It was the Neo-Conservative voices in the Bush administration that most forcefully made the case for invading Iraq, a decision even some Conservative Republicans say was a disaster.

PAT BUCHANAN, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR:  If these people, the Neo-Conservatives are Rudy Giuliani‘s foreign policy team, a vote for Rudy is tantamount to a vote for permanent war.

ALLEN (on camera):  Giuliani supporters insist it is a policy that promotes strength.  Our conservative approach of analysts say also may help want criticism of his not very Conservative views on social issues like abortion.

(voice over):  Giuliani‘s chief foreign policy adviser says he listens to a wide range of ideas and dismisses the accusation that Neo-Conservative voices are louder than others.

CHARLES HILL, GIULIANI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER:  Mayor Giuliani has his own foreign policy and he doesn‘t listen to people other than those who can possibly contribute to his own view of the world.

ALLEN:  Critics worry the advice he‘s getting will lead to conflicts while the mayor insists he knows how to keep America safe.  Ron Allen, NBC NEWS, New York.


ABRAMS:  So, is it possible this means on foreign policy issues Giuliani may now be even more conservative than President Bush?  Back with us again, Rachel Maddow and Nationally syndicated columnist and radio host, Armstrong Williams.  Thanks to both of you for coming on.  Armstrong, do you think that this means that Giuliani could actually be more Conservative on Bush on some of these issues?

ARMSTRONG WILLIAMS, COLUMNIST AND RADIO HOST:  Well, there are many people who want to judge how conservative President Bush is.  I think there‘s no question former mayor Giuliani is moving to the right.  He realizes that he needs the conservative base in order to win.  This is not an usual no different than what the liberals accused Mrs. Clinton of.  You know what a person is during the primary before they get the nomination quite different than what they become during the general election.  I think the fact that he‘s maturing and he‘s more comfortable with conservativism, whether he‘s moving away from his position on gun control, abortion rights, same-sex marriages, I think that‘s a lot in this country.

ABRAMS:  Armstrong, this isn‘t just about politics.  Let me play this piece of sound from Giuliani talking about Iran.


GIULIANI:  Iran is a greater danger than Iraq.  Iraq cannot be seen in a vacuum and we have to be willing to use a military option to stop Iran from becoming nuclear.


ABRAMS:  I think that, I mean, look, I think that is a language that is going even further than Vice president Cheney, Armstrong.

WILLIAMS:  I was in the Middle East for the last week, we just returned the last few days, Dan, and before going over I would have thought that rhetoric was kind of crazy, given the fact that we did trust the administration which I supported actually, going into Iraq, and it seems as though we‘ve sounded the drumbeat to do something in Iran, which I think is a little chaotic, considering where we are in the world and how we‘ve become a weakened military force.  Certainly I‘m not an advocate of going into Iran.  What was most shocking during the time in the Middle East in Israel, the number one concern on their mind is Iran.  They think Iran is the biggest threat to the existence of Israel.

ABRAMS:  No question.

WILLIAMS:  I don‘t think what Giuliani is saying is out of line.  It depends on how he plans to act upon his concerns about Iran being a threat.  Does that mean military action, does it mean invasion or does it mean more economic sanctions?

ABRAMS:  Alright, well, Rachel, let me play another montage of pieces of sound from Giuliani yesterday and it sounds to me like this is the pandering to the far right by, like this is four times in one speech he said this yesterday.


GIULIANI:  Particularly in the liberal media.

These liberal newspapers have exaggerated.

I know the liberal media.

ABRAMS:  The liberal media.  It‘s like the buzzwords that the far right want to hear.

MADDOW:  Can‘t you see him standing there in drag yelling about the liberal media.  I think what - I mean in the gay community the people who are closeted are the people who are going to be scariest homophobes.  And I think in the political terms what we‘re learning with Rudy Giuliani and also a little bit with Mitt Romney is that the guys who have to worry about the right flank, the guys who have to worry about their past of not seeming right wing enough in their previous political career go crazy right wing when trying to get the Republican nomination for president.  I mean, we‘ve got Rudy Giuliani saying we can‘t, we don‘t want Iran to get a nuclear weapon so therefore the only option to consider is starting a war with them.  We‘ve got his comments on torture yesterday as well.  Mitt Romney parroting a lot of things. I think those guys are so insecure about their past liberalism that they‘ve gone off the crazy train in a right way.

ABRAMS:  That‘s an interesting point.  Armstrong, what do you make of it?

WILLIAMS:  Well, look, Mr. Giuliani does have issues in terms of what he really believes and he seems to be running away from himself, but I think in all honesty, people like Miss Maddow and others were frightened of Giuliani because I think when it‘s all said and done that he‘s a true threat to Senator Clinton becoming president of these United States and I think they‘re afraid of him, trying to malign him.  Even though, I don‘t disagree with the fact that he‘s redefining himself as he‘s goes along.  I will not argue against that.  But he is a threat, he‘s doing what is necessary.  You can call it pandering but he‘s serious about becoming president of these United States.

MADDOW:  Armstrong, I just like to say I do find Giuliani scary but not on an electoral level.


ABRAMS:  Here‘s Giuliani refusing to say much like the attorney general nominee, Michael Mukasey, and Giuliani going further, suggesting that water boarding really may not be torture.


GIULIANI:  I‘m not sure it is either.  It depends on how it‘s done.  It depends on the circumstances.  It depends on who does it.  I think the way it‘s been defined in the media it shouldn‘t be done, the manner which they described it particularly in the liberal media.


ABRAMS:  The liberal media, depends on how it‘s done.  There‘s not a lot of ways to water board.  There‘s basics to it and we‘ve laid it out time and again on this program for Giuliani to claim it‘s about the liberal media defining - it‘s to me is a copout in terms of his ability to answer the question, which the straightforward one, yes.

MADDOW:  Sure, moral leadership under Giuliani, whether or not something is torture depends on who does it.

ABRAMS:  You know, this is the thing.  Let‘s call it torture and then we can have the discussion about the ticking time bomb, about whether if you need to torture someone to get information immediately.  I‘m happy to have that discussion.  I think it‘s an important discussion but let‘s admit that water boarding is torture and we can talk about whether we ever need to do it in extreme cases.  Anyway, Rachel Maddow and Armstrong William, thanks a lot for coming on.

Come up, a fugitive who escaped from prison 20 years ago is finally arrested by police yesterday.  And with cameras rolling he tries to lie to them about who he is, until he‘s confronted with photographic proof.

Plus: You know the way kids make up silly acronyms, laila seems love you like a sister, bf means boyfriend.  Well, it seems FOX‘s Bill O‘Reilly and Dennis Miller came up with whacky names just like those for the other cable news channels, that‘s coming up in BTP, Beat the Press.


ABRAMS:  It‘s time for tonight‘s Beat the Press

First up: Remember when you were in elementary school you turned initials into other things, we could stand for BFF, best friends forever, or TTYS, talk to you soon.  Well, last night, Dennis Miller, who I think is great, and Bill O‘Reilly who I think, anyway, they were trying to outdo each other for whacky acronyms for the cable news channels.


DENNIS MILLER, COMEDIAN:  MSNBC stands for make sure no bush compliments.

BILL O‘REILLY, HOST:  CNN, is a corrupt news network and that‘s what it stands for now, corrupt news network.  There‘s your initials.


ABRAMS:  They are so clever!  Gosh!  And I expect that from O‘Reilly but not somewhere from someone as good as Miller.

Next up, we equal opportunity beaters of the press here, including ourselves.  We moved to New York this week and overall things have been great.  We had a couple of rough patches like last night, where we have everything from technical problems to, well - here it is.


ABRAMS: I assume that‘s your daughter there with you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  This is my sister.


ABRAMS: A new report, no.  This is a taser guy.  It seemed more like it was penises in peril.

I don‘t know if could you hear that, but you couldn‘t hear that,

OK, we‘ll try to cue that up again.  Because, just a joke.  Alright, we‘ve

got now the one—basically we set it up, I think—all right, it wasn‘t

it wasn‘t a joke.  That it‘s “Planet in peril” the “Penises in peril”?


Beat the Press.  Woo, woo, woo, woo!  Alright, now, let‘s try it again.  CNN‘s Dr. Sanjay Gupta.


DR. SANJAY GUPTA:  This is the bull penis, this is deer penis, these are lamb testicles, it‘s Russian dogs penis.


ABRAMS:  We got it there finally, we almost kind of blew that one again.  I don‘t know if we can deserve the applause.  We almost blew it again.  We need your help beating the press.  If you see anything, amusing, absurd, or just right or wrong, please go to Web siteAbrams.msnbc.com.  Leave us a tip in the box, please include the show and the time you saw the item.

Up next: A fugitive is finally caught after being on the run for 28 years.  He first lies about who he is; then he‘s shown a prison photo of himself from 1979.  He confessed, it‘s me, it‘s all on camera.

And a drawing that has been released of a new suspect in the case of missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann.  The man who is reportedly carrying a child the night she went missing and we have a new emotional interview with Madeleine‘s parents.


DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  We‘re back.  Coming up, a fugitive busted after 28 years on the run.  He lied to officers about who he was, until they confronted him with a photograph of himself that was taken when he was still in prison.  We‘ve got it all in tape.

But back with breaking information on those California wildfires.  Authorities tonight say they found four charred bodies near the Mexican border.  Earlier today, police announced the arrest of two people - an adult and a juvenile, apparently lived in the house.  We don‘t know if they‘re father and son - after they allegedly started a brush fire in a San Diego suburb. 

Fifteen major fires still burning tonight.  The good news, the weather cooperating, fire crews gaining control.  Nick Calderone with our Phoenix affiliate, KPNX, joins us from Rancho Bernardo near San Diego, what do you know? 


NICK CALDERONE, CORRESPONDENT, KPNX-TV:  Well, Dan, this was one of the most devastated neighborhoods in this entire California wildfire.  A couple of days ago, when you drove through it was desolate.  Nobody around.  Today, life finally starting to flow back into Rancho Bernardo, but it took a while for people to get in here.  The traffic backed up for some as much as three hours.

President Bush was in town, touring the neighborhood.  That really had things locked up.  Once this motorcade rolled out, people getting a chance to come back in here, some of them finding heavy destruction like you see behind me.  Many other people though coming home to their homes.  Some people walking in finding nothing but just smoke damage.  Other people sifting through wreckage looking for little things like wedding rings, small trinkets like that. 

Lots of police presence here today.  We saw police cruisers cruising by every few minutes, even the national guard walking the neighborhood, making sure that people aren‘t looters, checking IDs, making sure people who are in the neighborhood are supposed to be here. 

Also, take a breath right now.  All week long, many of us who have been working out here have been wearing dust masks and respirators.  Today, finally the air starting to clear a little bit.  You can get a breath of fresh air and the California spirit, that laid back California spirit - most people saying you know what?  I‘ll just have the nicest newest house on the block.  Dan? 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Nick Calderone, thanks a lot.  Appreciate it.

Moving on, fugitive hunters track down a man running from authorities for 28 years.  Maximino Jurado(ph) escaped from prison camp in southern New Jersey in 1979.  The prison has since closed, but Jurado still owes the state four to ten.  He‘s now 75 years old.  Philadelphia‘s fugitive unit had him on their radar, finally got the opportunity to nab him with a camera crew right behind them.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Papo(ph), you‘ve got to get in the back there. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER  Is somebody around the corner with Papo(ph)?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Then pretend it didn‘t happen.  I‘m grateful.  There, right there. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  I know what you‘re saying.  Are you guys ready? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  One of the guys went around this way, went around the corner. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Open up, police.  Open the door. 



Open the door. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Make sure you get to the back, Papo(ph). 

Make sure you get to the back. 








UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Wait, wait, wait, wait.  Can you close that door, please?  Just close that door.  Oh, no, no, no. 



UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Oh, what‘s your real name?  Anybody got a photo? 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  We want to show you something, Jose. 

Jose, right, that‘s you?  That‘s you, right? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Put your hands behind the back. 

MAXIMINO JURADO(ph), FUGITIVE:  Let me see the picture. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Maximino Jurado.  There you go, that ring a bell? 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Listen, you‘re going home. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  It‘s been a long time, brother. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  You‘re going back to Jersey, OK?  You remember that photo?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Remember that man, when he escaped from jail from 1979? 



Stand right here. 





JURADO:  Yes. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  You got any weapons, anything that‘s going to stick myself or my partner?  I‘m asking you, do you have any weapons? 

JURADO:  I don‘t have anything with me.  I don‘t carry any weapons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  1979, OK?  You go by Jose Rosario or Maxamino Jurado?  Which one? 


JURADO:  Maximino(ph). 


JURADO:  Maximino(ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  Maximino(ph).  All right.  You cooperate, and we‘ll go real easy. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER:  It took us a long time to get him but -

JURADO(ph):  You got me. 



ABRAMS:  Joining me now the two agents who took part in the bust, Ellis Allen(ph) and Dan Klotz(ph) from the Philadelphia Department Of Corrections Fugitive Unit.  Gentlemen, thanks very much for coming on.  Appreciate it.  All right, Mr. Klotz, let me ask you first.  Have you gotten a lot of tips about this guy?  I mean, this is a lot of years after the fact. 

DAN KLOTZ, PHILADELPHIA DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS FUGITIVE UNIT:   No, not really.  There wasn‘t - no, any tips.  We were just working off of sources and old information basically. 

ABRAMS:  And so what was the tip that finally led you to say, “I think we got our guy?”

KLOTZ:  Well, we developed information that some names that he was using, and we got some, a photo to match it up.  And then we were pretty confident at that point it was our guy. 

ABRAMS:  Mr. Allen, knowing how much longer - how long ago it was and how old he is now, were you still - have that adrenalin going in?  Were you still nervous as you‘re knocking on the door? 


Yes. You‘re always nervous knocking on the door because you never know what‘s behind it.  We felt pretty comfortable with the team members we had.  The guys in New Jersey really work hard apprehending their fugitives and the division felt comfortable who we had with us. 

ABRAMS:  You ever apprehended a fugitive this many years after the fact before? 

ALLEN(ph):  Close to it, yes. 

ABRAMS:  Really? 

ALLEN(ph):  Yes. 

ABRAMS:  You‘ve had other fugitives who‘ve been on the run this long and you show up at their houses, you know, this many years later to bust them? 

ALLEN(ph):  I had the opportunity to watch investigator Klotz(ph) conduct one of these investigations before.  That‘s why we felt comfortable about him conducting this investigation.  It felt really good.

ABRAMS:  So, Mr. Klotz, it basically says to me that these investigations are staying open well after the fugitives may think they‘re closed.

KLOTZ(ph):  Absolutely.  They never close with us.  We actively pursue these guys.  We work every which way and you know, when it seems like it‘s getting older, something picks up and we continue pushing forward with it. 

ABRAMS:  All right, Ellis Allen(ph) and Dan Klotz(ph), thank you and thank you for all of the good work you guys do on a daily basis.  Appreciate it.

ALLEN(ph):  Hey, Dan.  Thank you very much on behalf of the New Jersey Department of Corrections. 

KLOTZ(ph):  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  Up next, a rare public display of emotion from the mother of missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann.  Her parents speak out fort first time since being named suspects. 


KATE MCCANN, MADELEINE MCCANN‘S MOTHER:  I‘m Madeleine‘s mommy.  I know she was taken in that apartment and she‘s out there. 


More of that interview is coming up.  And there‘s a new sketch of a possible suspect.  And later a family is saved from a dangerous fire, thanks to their pet parrot, who imitated the sound of a fire alarm.  We‘ll meet the amazing bird and his thankful owners ahead in “Winners and Losers.”


ABRAMS:  New developments tonight in the case of missing 4-year-old Madeleine McCann.  Her parents have released a sketch of a man carrying a child, seen by a family friend the same night Madeleine vanished. 

Take a look.  It is a side view of a man in a dark jacket, beige pants, Caroline‘s(ph) hair, carrying a young child with pajamas the McCanns say matched Maddie‘s.  His face is blank as the friend couldn‘t remember certain details about it.  This is drawn by an FBI-trained artist hired by the detectives working for the McCanns. 

It‘s been nearly six months since Madeleine was last seen.  Now, her parents gave their first televised interview since being named suspects.  And her mother shows more emotion that we‘ve ever seen before.  NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski(ph) has the story. 


K. MCCANN:  I‘m Madeleine‘s mommy.  I know she‘s taken from the apartment, and she‘s out there.  And I want her back.  I mean, that is all - I mean, everything else, I‘m sorry, is rubbish. 

MICHELLE KOSINSKI(ph), NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice over):  The McCann‘s first interview since being named suspects in their daughter Madeleine‘s disappearance is news for, not anything we haven‘t heard before, but for what we haven‘t seen before, emotion from Kate. 

K. MCCANN:  She was very happy and very loving.  And you know, Madeleine was very happy with her life. 

KOSINSKI:  The grief that she‘s been so vilified for hiding publicly. 

K. MCCANN:  She‘s special. 

KOSINSKI:  Freed in an interview for Spanish television. 

K. MCCANN:  I strongly believe that Madeleine is out there.  And I think she‘s probably in someone‘s house, I don‘t know why.  And I suppose it‘s a feeling. 

KOSINSKI:  The McCanns believe 4-year-old Madeleine is alive, likely in Spain, Portugal or North Africa.  They‘re speaking out as they launch their new hotline in that region that will connect callers with their own private investigators, not with police. 

MCCANN:  It‘s not about us.  We miss her like crazy.  We haven‘t seen her since she‘s been 4.  And now Madeleine is there and she needs our help.  She needs to be with her family. 

KOSINSKI:  The couple maintain they had no hand in Madeleine‘s disappearance. 

GERRY MCCANN, MADELEINE MCCANN‘S FATHER:  We‘ve not been charged with anything.  The investigation continues and we will be eliminated. 

K. MCCANN:  I‘ll take anything that‘s thrown at me.  But number one is getting my daughter back.  (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

KOSINSKI:  And it‘s public sympathy, they feel, that will bring their daughter home. 

CHARLOTTE ROSS, “EVENING STANDARD”:  It‘s sad, but crying in an interview will make the public more sympathetic towards her, because Kate McCann is a woman and a mother, people expect tears. 

KOSINSKI:  Something that Kate herself addressed why she hasn‘t been emotional before. 

K. MCCANN:  Do you want to know the truth?  I know I‘m innocent.  Gerry knows he‘s innocent.  We know each other is innocent.  And that‘s me.  It was actually quite calming because I thought, we‘re innocent.  We‘re totally innocent.


ABRAMS:  Joining me now, Sarah Baxter Washington Bureau Chief for “The Sunday Times” of London.  Thanks very much for coming on the program. 



ABRAMS:  All right.  Before we talk about that interview, let me ask you about the sketch.  Why are we just seeing this sketch now six months later? 

BAXTER:  Well, we‘re seeing the sketch because the Portuguese police haven‘t done anything about this suspect.  This is someone who was seen going from the area of the apartment, heading out of the apartment complex, carrying a bundle that looked like a little girl, wearing pink pajamas and could well be the abductor of Madeleine. 

But the police have been sticking rigidly to the theory that the parents did it and haven‘t really made much effort to trace this man.  So the friends and the parents are taking matters into their own hands.  Their own private investigators are having to do the work the police haven‘t.  But I can‘t say it‘s a great sketch.  I don‘t know if that‘s going to produce anything, I‘m afraid. 

ABRAMS:  No.  No, I don‘t think so either.  But here is Gerry McCann talking about whether he has any concerns about DNA tests they‘re doing, or the fact that he‘s considered a suspect. 


G. MCCANN:  I‘m certainly not scared, you know.  If there‘s anything in the DNA results, we don‘t know them and we cannot know them.  And I don‘t believe anyone in the press knows them either.  But there is nothing in those DNA tests related to Kate and I that will show anything other than completely innocent.  Whether that is enough to eliminate us, I don‘t know, but we will be eliminated. 


ABRAMS:  Sarah, before we heard Kate McCann talking about the fact that she still believes that Madeleine is alive, do these parents really still believe that she‘s alive? 

BAXTER:  They said before that they fear that she‘s dead, but they‘ve kept that little hope alive.  And I think, I think Kate McCann, Madeleine‘s mother, talking tonight was very moving about this idea that she felt as a mommy that her daughter was still alive.  They‘ve been through their real nights of despair.  They absolutely maintain 100 percent of their innocence.  I must say the former chief of Scotland Yard came out the other day and said if the Portuguese police have only got what we‘ve heard so far in the press through leaks and other insinuations, they really don‘t have a case against the McCanns. 

ABRAMS:  Here‘s a little bit more from Kate McCann. 


K. MCCANN:  Real sad and I feel lonely.  And life is not as happy without Madeleine.  And - but you know, I still have hope.  We still have hope. 


ABRAMS:  All right, Sarah Baxter, thanks a lot for coming on the program. 

Appreciate it.  We‘re going to stay on top of the story as it develops. 

BAXTER:  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  Up next, in “Winners and Losers,” Marie Osmond faints on national television but more embarrassing, she‘s now blaming it on the California wildfires.

A presidential candidate lagging in the polls bets his entire campaign on the World Series.  Will Tom Tancredo make it to game seven?

And a parrot saves his family by imitating the sound of a fire alarm. 

We‘ll meet the hero and his lucky owners next.

Marie‘s nutty excuse, a candidate working for peanuts and crackerjacks, or a parrot named Peanut?  Who will be tonight‘s big winner or loser?



ABRAMS:  It‘s time for tonight‘s “Winners and Losers” for this 25th day of October, 2007.  Our first loser, dancing diva Marie Osmond, who‘s come up with an explanation for her dizzy drop on “Dancing with the Stars.”


UNIDENTIFIED MALE CONTEST JUDGE:  And the fun of the samba. 

ABRAMS (voice over):  The fainting fox-trotter claims the California wildfires caused her swoon. 

MARIE OSMOND, “DANCING WITH THE STARS” CONTESTANT:  Air quality is really bad.  And I have allergies really bad, so maybe that was it.  I‘m a singer.  I don‘t know why I should have been winded.  We‘ve done a six, seven, eight times in a row no problem. 


ABRAMS:  No doubt a discomforting thought for the thousands of firefighters bravely jockeying for position to douse the racing blazes with retardant and water. 

Our first winners, water buffalos racing for tourists in Thailand, with uncomfortable jockeys doing their best not to fall off the thundering herds as they race to the finish. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE ANNOUNCER:  They‘re coming down to the wire.  It‘s going

to be very close.  And it‘s going to be -


ABRAMS:  The blazing buffalos took off down a 110-yard dirt track with the winning jockey taking home a $300 prize.

Our second loser?  British comedian Sasha Baron Cohen, a.k.a.

fictional Kazakh journalist Borat -


SASHA BARON COHEN, COMEDIAN:  Very nice.  Come on.

ABRAMS (voice over):  Now being sued by an Alabama etiquette teacher he duped in the movie. 

COHEN:  She is your wife? 

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR:  No, that‘s my wife. 

COHEN:  In my country, they would go crazy for these two, not so much -


ABRAMS:  The manners maven says she was misrepresented in the filthy flick and now wants a polite payoff for the prank, a lawsuit that is likely a long shot bet.

Winner, long shot presidential candidate Tom Tancredo, who‘s trying to use a bet to get rival Republican Mitt Romney out of the race. 


MARLON BRANDO, ACTOR:  I want to make him an offer he can‘t refuse. 


ABRAMS:  The Colorado congressman says he‘ll bench his bid for the White House if his home state Colorado Rockies lose to Romney‘s Red Sox in the World Series. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPORTSCASTER:  Youklis(ph) rips it down into the corner.  Another hit for Kevin Youklis(ph) and another run for the Red Sox who lead it 7 to 1. 


ABRAMS:  And if the Red Sox lose, Tancredo says the far more formidable Romney should sit for the rest of the campaign. 

But the big loser of the day?  Vice President Dick Cheney, who seemed to be asleep for a moment or two during a cabinet meeting today in Washington.  A spokesman for the second in command says it was more yoga than yawn, that he was just meditating.  It sure looked like he dozed off during the president‘s talk about wildfires.

The big winner of the day?  An Indiana parrot named Peanut, who saved his family from a fire after they dozed off.  Peanut imitated the sound of the home‘s fire alarm, waking up his owner, Shannon Conwell, who grabbed his 9-year-old son and the bird, and made it safely out of the house. 

ABRAMS:  Joining us now is Shannon Conwell, his son, Tyler, and their

parrot, peanut.  Thanks to all of you for coming on.  Appreciate it.  All

right -

SHANNON CONWELL, PEANUT‘S OWNER:  Thank you for having us. 

ABRAMS:  Shannon, let me ask, have you ever heard your parrot yell that loud? 

S. CONWELL:  The only other time he‘s ever yelled this loud, he‘s imitated our telephone before. 

ABRAMS:  Really? 

S. CONWELL:  Yes. 

ABRAMS:  How did he know - how did he know that it was the fire alarm sound to make?  Had the parrot heard the fire alarm?  Was it going off? 

S. CONWELL:  No, I think he just likes to imitate a lot of things he hears.  But my honest opinion is, somebody upstairs was looking out for us this night. 

ABRAMS:  And you hear this sound, and you think it‘s probably the fire alarm.  And then you realize it‘s your parrot? 

S.                CONWELL:  Yes.  It was the awfulest sound you ever wanted to hear.  It sure was.  

ABRAMS:  Tyler, what did you hear? 

TYLER CONWELL, SHANNON‘S SON:  I didn‘t hear really anything, but I just heard something falling down and stuff.  

ABRAMS:  Did your dad shake you to wake you up? 

T.                CONWELL:  Yes. 

ABRAMS:  And did you then realize that the house was on fire? 

T.                CONWELL:  No. 

ABRAMS:  Have you always—are you close to the parrot, with Peanut?  Did you name him? 

T.                CONWELL:  Well, my stepmom named him.  

ABRAMS:  Shannon, let me ask you.  When you woke up, the parrot makes these noises, wakes you up.  What did you see? 

S. CONWELL:  Well, the fist thing I‘ve seen when I woke up - I was

basically waking up to tell the bird to quit squawking.  But when I raised

up, I just raised up to black smoke.  And I knew that hearing him - and

then when I woke up, then I heard the fire alarms going off in the other

rooms.  And that‘s when I grabbed my son and grabbed Peanut and then pulled

most of them out the front door, and -

ABRAMS:  And everything in the house was destroyed, wasn‘t it? 

S. CONWELL:  Yes, sir.  And the - you know, like I said, you know, I really believe, you know, our parrot, you know - I believe my mom - my mom and the man upstairs, you know, still has something for us here on earth.  Because within four or five minutes more of us pulling out of the house where we was sleeping, it went up in flames.  

ABRAMS:  All right.  Well look.  We are out of time.  So good to see that you are both safe and well.  Any chance we can get Peanut to say anything? 

S. CONWELL:  We can try.  He‘s had a long day.  Hey, Peanut.  Come here. 

Come on.  Get down, get funky, get loose.  

Get down, get funky, get loose.  Come on.  I know you want to sing. 

Come on.  He‘s pretty well worn out, I think.


ABRAMS:  We tried, but he‘s a hero.  He‘s still a hero.  Shannon, Tyler, Peanut, got to go.  Thanks a lot.  See you tomorrow.



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