updated 11/2/2007 3:46:43 PM ET 2007-11-02T19:46:43

Guests: Oscar Garcia, Kyle Toeches(ph), Candice DeLong, Mary Frances Bragel, Courtney Hazlett, Steve Adubato, Chuck Nice

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  For political fear mongering, President Bush claiming many have forgotten the quote, “Lessons of 9/11.”  Translation, if you don‘t agree with any and every part of the administration‘s anti-terror policy, then you are one of them.  One of those who, quote, “Deny we are at war.”  We‘ve heard this before, but this time from the president said Congress is somehow in denial by delaying the confirmation of his choice for attorney general Michael Mukasey.  If this particular candidate is not confirmed immediately, that emboldens al Qaeda to attack again?  The president didn‘t offer a lawyer like argument as to why Mukasey can‘t comment on whether water boarding is torture, I‘ll tell you why it makes no sense.

A former Navy S.E.A.L. joins us.  He recorded himself being waterboarded, he give himself the same current TV to Mukasey Kosh Larson we will tell us what it‘s like to get water boarded.  Also, Townhall reporter, Amanda Carpenter and MSNBC political analyst, Pat Buchanan are with us today.  But first today, the president tried to explain why Mukasey can‘t just say that yes, waterboarding where a suspect is strapped in a board made to feel like he‘s drowning is a form of torture.  It was a three-part explanation.  I‘ll respond point by point.


GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT:  First he does not know whether certain methods of questioning were, in fact, used because the program is classified and, therefore, he is in no position to provide an informed opinion.


ABRAMS:  No one is asking whether what is in the program.  They are asking a far simpler legal question.  Is water boarding torture?  This has nothing to do with classified information.


BUSH:  Second, he does not want an uninformed opinion to be taken by our professional interrogators in the field as placing them in legal jeopardy.


ABRAMS:  Uninformed?  He‘s been one of the lead judges on terrorism cases for years.  That‘s one of the reasons the president chose him.  It‘s a straight forward procedure.  As for placing interrogators in legal jeopardy, Congress specifically passed a law that provides legal protection to interrogators for action taken with government authorization.  Now, if what the president really means is that former attorney general Gonzalez could be in legal jeopardy, well, that‘s no reason for Mukasey not to answer the question honestly.


BUSH:  Finally, he does not want any statement of his to give the terrorist a window into which techniques we may use and which ones we may not use.  That could help them train their operatives to resist questioning and withhold vital information we need to stop attacks and save lives.


ABRAMS:  And this is the most absurd argument of all.  So the fact that they know we don‘t permit fingernail removal allows them to better train.  No one is asking him to disclose specifics about what we do.  They‘re asking him whether a particular procedure, waterboarding would be torture.  And no matter what he says, it‘s no secret that waterboarding is a method some of our interrogators have used.  Pat Buchanan, this seems to me to be totally disingenuous.

PAT BUCHANAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  Look, you said it‘s a legal question.  If it‘s a legal question, what does the law say about waterboarding?  The law doesn‘t speak to it because the Congress refuses to declare it illegal.

ABRAMS:  So they need to declare each and every procedure, removing nails, do they need to do like plucking hair from one‘s nose.  Do they need to lay out every single thing that is not permitted?

BUCHANAN:  No.  What they need to do when they‘re all but spending two months talking about waterboarding is define whether it is illegal or legal, torture or not, can be used or cannot be used.

ABRAMS:  So the answer is that the attorney general, the prospective attorney general simply, let me go to Amanda on this, cannot answer this question without Congress spelling it out for them, just so I understand it.  That‘s the argument?

AMANDA CARPENTER, TOWNHALL.COM:  Well, this is what I find interesting.  The last attorney general, Alberto Gonzales has largely thrown out on charges of incompetence now we have an aging nominee who wants to read the classified information so he can make a competent decision.  And you think this is a reason to spike him.

ABRAMS:  No, the classified information has nothing to do with the issue at hand.  I‘m going to ask him, Kosh (ph) Larson has waterboarded, has been waterboarded.  Let me ask him, this is not classified.  He‘s made a video of it.  It‘s been on current to.  We have played it on this program.  Kosh (ph), maybe you can explain to Mukasey and to Amanda and to Pat because they seem to think that it‘s somehow classified, it‘s not, you had it done to yourself.  A number of people have had it done to them and I‘m going to have them put up the videos.  You explain this.  What does it mean to be waterboarded?

LARSON:  Well, I can tell you that I‘ve had this procedure done to me twice.  Once during my time in the service and then once again on current TV, on national TV and both times I felt like I was going to die.  It‘s that simple.

ABRAMS:  We‘re showing the video.  That‘s you in the videotape that we are showing right there.  When you say you felt like you were going to die, I mean, you hear some people say, you know, come on, it doesn‘t leave any permanent damage.  What‘s the big deal?

LARSON:  I don‘t think the metric we use to measure torture is whether it inflicts permanent damage.  It‘s also illegal to tell someone that you‘re going to kill their family if they don‘t give you information. 

When you find out that‘s not true later on, it certainly doesn‘t leave

permanent damage, but the emotional peril in the moment is—should be the

metric for -

ABRAMS:  This is definition of torture in the U.S. Code, Pat, it‘s

not that difficult.  An act committed by a person acting under the color of

law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain -

BUCHANAN:  Let me tell you, first off, John McCain who has been tortured is going to vote for Mukasey.  Secondly, if an individual has planted a bomb and you know he‘s planted a bomb and it could kill thousands of people or hundreds of people or tens of people and you‘ve got him in custody, I think you‘ve got a moral obligation to do whatever it takes to get the information.

ABRAMS:  Fine.  I don‘t disagree with you.

BUCHANAN:  You‘ve got a moral right to kill him you‘ve got a more moral right to put him under pressure.

ABRAMS:  No Pat, look.  If you‘re telling me you‘re going to give the ticking time bomb scenario, that is if there is a nuclear bomb that‘s about to go off on New York City, you‘ve got the terrorists who planned it there, you‘re going to do whatever you can to get that information.  Fine.  But let‘s also at least admit that we are going to allow them to torture him if we think that somehow it will help.

BUCHANAN:  Look, you were talking just semantics.  I would say yes to waterboarding.  As for torture, outlawed by the Geneva Convention, you can‘t use it on prisoners of war, we are dealing with prisoners for situations like that, I would say yes.  Is it torture?  I don‘t know.  If you want to call it torture.  Fine.  I don‘t think it does permanent damage.  I don‘t think it is.

ABRAMS:  Amanda, I want Mukasey to answer the question.

CARPENTER:  Well, he can‘t answer the question because if he does, it will put him in the position of prosecuting our professional interrogator interrogators.  I mean, we saw ABC NEWS reported Brian Ross that waterboarding was very effective in getting information in Khalid Sheikh Mohammad.  Now, if you‘re saying those interrogators should be prosecuted by Mukasey, I think many people disagree with you.

ABRAMS:  That‘s what I said.  Somehow that‘s what I said.

BUCHANAN:  Dan, what you want to do here is you want the attorney general to say, in effect, that Americans have been torturing people.

ABRAMS:  No.  I  want him to give a legal position on one of the most important issues of today.

BUCHANAN:  Dan, it‘s going to be a legal position, why don‘t they write the law and say it‘s illegal.

ABRAMS:  But that‘s a congressional matter.

BUCHANAN:  That‘s how laws are written, Dan.  Congress writes laws.

ABRAMS:  No, Pat, that‘s not the only way laws—there‘s also interpretation, Pat.  There‘s also the fact that torture is defined in the U.S. Code, and then lawyers, judges, Judge Mukasey‘s can make legal assessments as to whether it fits into the definition.

BUCHANAN:  But you know what you want to do?  You want to leave these guys in limbo, saying OK, we may say you‘re a torturer and we may not.  Tell them what they are doing cannot be permitted.  Make it the law.  Congress is totally cowardly on this.

ABRAMS:  No, Congress has specifically passed a provision to protect interrogators.  This isn‘t about the interrogators.  What I fear this is about is the unwillingness to say it‘s torture because not because the interrogators are going to get prosecuted because Alberto Gonzales could be in trouble for authorizing it.

BUCHANAN:  Dan, you are trying to force this man to say it cost him his job, something he may not believe.  That is an in imposition.

ABRAMS:  I don‘t care what he says.  Take a position but don‘t display semantic games with the Congress.

BUCHANAN:  Look, what do you mean don‘t play—why doesn‘t the Congress have, A, either the guts to declare it torture or, B, the guts to reject it?

ABRAMS:  I don‘t think they are going to reject him.

BUCHANAN:  I don‘t think they are either.

ABRAMS:  Should this be enough to reject him?  No.  I‘m not certain it should be enough.  But you know what?  It is totally disingenuous of the president to get up there today and give these three false reasons why Mukasey can‘t answer the question.  That‘s what gets me.

BUCHANAN:  But you know very well, he will be persuasive and the Congress is going to let Mukasey go through.

ABRAMS:  That‘s the political—let me bring Kosh (ph) back into this.  Kosh (ph), explain to us the circumstances surrounding—why did you go on TV to have this done to you a second time?

LARSON:  Well, I had the procedure performed about a year ago because there was this national debate going on, and pundits and policy makers were arguing about this issue of waterboarding, but nobody really knew what it was.  So it was an intellectual exercise, so I decided to do this and have it done on current TV, have it aired on current TV in order to put it in the court of public opinion and let the public, which is who should be deciding on this healthy democracy judge for themselves whether it was torture or not.

ABRAMS:  Who were the people doing it to you there?  We‘re the other people - former Navy SEALS - who were they?

LARSON:  They were professional army interrogators.  They were ex-army SEALS instructors who I contracted to perform the procedure on me.

BUCHANAN:  This gentleman is obviously a brave, young man.  But let me say this, we are a republic not a democracy.  The men we elect make these decisions and then we hold them accountable.  That is the way it is done.  And what we have now, we have this problem for a simple reason.  Congress refuses to define it.

LARSON:  We can‘t hold them accountable, Pat, if we don‘t know what we are holding them accountable for.

BUCHANAN:   I think you‘re exactly right.  Now that you showed them, should Congress outlaw it and say, Mukasey, it can‘t be done.

CARPENTER:  There is another interesting point, though.  If this is something we do as part of training our soldiers how can it be torturous or illegal?  It obviously shows certain circumstances that involve duration, repetition that Mukasey should have asked us too, to make an informed decision about this.

ABRAMS:  He doesn‘t need access to anything else.  Cosh can send him the videotape and he will know whether or not this is a judge—I‘ve got to wrap it up, Pat.

BUCHANAN:   Dan, do you really think we tortured our guys in the training?

ABRAMS:  Look, it‘s possible.  Absolutely.  I mean, why that is so farfetched to believe?

BUCHANAN:  Then should we prosecute the guys for putting the training through it.

ABRAMS:  It‘s not about prosecuting them.  It‘s deciding what to do from here on then Pat.  We can move forward.  We can make progress. .What a noble word.  We can become involved.

BUCHANAN:  You don‘t believe - you don‘t belong in the CTU.  You belong in the ACLU, Dan.

ABRAMS:  Pat gets the final word.  All right.  Kosh Larson, Pat Buchanan and Amanda Carpenter is going to stay with us.  Kosh, thanks a lot.

Coming up, Hillary Clinton‘s camp pointing fingers after her rocky debate performance on Tuesday blaming the media and maybe now even playing the gender card, talking about the all boys club of presidential politics.  Isn‘t it a lot simpler that she‘s the front-runner by a lot.

And breaking news, a manhunt on tonight in Nebraska for a 25-year-old teacher who was allegedly run off with her 13-year-old student.  Police say the teacher‘s computer had love letters they exchanged showing they were having a sexual relationship.  They‘re on the run.

Plus, Heather Mills, Paul McCartney‘s soon to be ex-, goes after the media.  Question is—is the media coverage continuing because she‘s fighting for more millions from there less than four years of marriage?


ABRAMS:  Damage control continues tonight for Hillary Clinton after a shaky debate performance on Tuesday.  She‘s now talking about being a woman in all-male field and her team digging in for a far right playbook and blaming the media for her debate stumble.  Senator Clinton‘s supporters and top advisors are singling out the debate moderators, NBC‘s Tim Russert and Brian Williams saying they were tougher on her than on others.  Maybe that‘s because she‘s the front-runner by a lot.


TIM RUSSERT:  Why does it make a lot of sense to give an illegal immigrant a driver‘s license.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Well, what Governor Spitzer is trying to do is fill the vacuum left by the failure of this administration to bring about comprehensive immigration reform.  I just want to add, I did not say that it should be done, but I certainly recognize what Governor Spitzer is trying to do it and we have failed.  We have failed.

SEN. CHRIS DODD, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  No.  You said yes, you thought it made sense to do it.

CLINTON:  No, I didn‘t, Chris.

RUSSERT:  Do you support his plan?

CLINTON:  Tim, this is where everybody plays gotcha.  It makes a lot of sense.  What is the governor supposed to do?


ABRAMS:  Today Hillary said this in her alma mater, the all women‘s Wesley College.


CLINTON:  In so many ways, this all women‘s college prepared me to compete in the all boys club of presidential politics.


ABRAMS:  Here to discuss this, Sam Youngman with “The Hill” newspaper.  Taylor Marsh, writer with the Huffington Post and Amanda Carpenter is still with us.  Thanks for all of you for coming on.  Appreciate it.  All right.  Sam, you actually were one of the I think maybe the only reporter who actually got to listen in on this conversation where the Hillary campaign team was sort of talking about the debate, et cetera, are they blaming the media?

SAM YOUNGMAN, THE HILL:  The supporters certainly are.  That was striking about being the sort of fly on the wall in this phone call.  Because the supporters were downright lived it.  They felt like there was definitely an unfair amount of attention on Senator Clinton.  The actual staff, Mark Penn who is her senior advisors with, they didn‘t disavow their supporters on that notion.  They did make a point that other candidates were getting asked questions like, is there life in outer space?

ABRAMS:  And someone made a comment that someone suggested that Tim Russert should be, quote, “shot”?

YOUNGMAN:  Right.  I don‘t know that supporter is advocating an assassination attempt on Mr. Russert.  But I think that accurately express on just how angry they were.

ABRAMS:  Taylor, look, this is to me the typical sort of digging into the far right play book.  You blame the media, you play the victim.  Look, she‘s the front-runner here.  She‘s going to get asked the tougher questions.  He or she or whoever that person is - is going to be asked the tougher questions, particularly by the other candidates, and maybe even by the moderators when you are ahead in the polls by as much as she is.

TAYLOR MARSH, TAYLORMARSH.COM:  Well, she has no problem answering questions.  But you can‘t ask her a question and ask a yes or no when you have 30 seconds and it‘s not a yes or no question.  The other thing is, I hate to disabuse anyone of something, but Hillary Clinton isn‘t the first woman to be a viable presidential nominee.  And this is a big deal.  This is a big deal.

ABRAMS:  So, therefore, we have to treat her with kid gloves?

MARSH:  No, she‘s not getting treated with kid gloves.  But she didn‘t get asked, would you do with air travel.  I mean, give me a break.

ABRAMS:  Your article suggested that some of the moderators were being sexist because they are asking her harder questions as opposed to the fact that she‘s the front-runner, she‘s being asked tough questions.

MARSH:  No.  If Mr. Russert would have asked her about S-chip,

something like that


MARSH:  Hey, can I finish?  Can I finish?  A lot of the questions were personal.  That is the problem.  You don‘t—that doesn‘t help anything.  And there‘s two months left.  There are two other candidates that are—

CARPENTER:  Illegal aliens, illegal aliens is not a personal question.  Iran is not a personal question.

MARSH:  Wait a minute.  He didn‘t ask me.

ABRAMS:  Hang on, Amanda, hang on a second.  Tailor, go ahead and finish.

MARSH:  We weren‘t talking about the illegal immigrants question, specifically, and if you think Hillary Clinton who is from New York isn‘t going to support the Democratic governor, I don‘t know what planet you are on.  Conservatives want this issue for a dog whistle for the 08 election.

ABRAMS:  If you want to talk about Amanda, what she wants it for, fine, but look, my point remains, that I think it is a low blow.  It is low brow politics for people to, A, claim that it was the media‘s fault or to, B, claim it‘s because she‘s a woman.  And you in your article are suggesting that it‘s sexist, and I still—you still haven‘t laid out a single example for me of why their questions were somehow sexist.  You say to me oh, they should have asked other questions and maybe there were other topics that would have been nice to discuss.

MARSH:  Well, first of all, Tim Russert asked couple dozen questions.  Most of them were about Hillary.  Five or six of them were about her personally.  He brought Bill into it.  This is the same thing he did with lazyo (ph) back in the Senate race when he tried to do a gotcha thing.  It‘s fine to go after an S-chip.  It‘s fine to go after these others.  But why did she get all the questions and Barack Obama gets something about air travel, what he‘s going to wear for Halloween, for God‘s sake.

ABRAMS:  But it‘s nice to play sort of Monday morning quarterback and say, you know, I wish he‘d asked this question instead of that one.  But you‘ve got no evidence, none, zero, that somehow this is sexist. 

Nothing you‘ve said suggests to me -

MARSH:  Look, it‘s his, with all due respect, to Tim Russert.  Over the years I‘ve been writing articles about meet the press and how many women he has on meet the press for years.  When he talks about abortion and he talks about family values—you asked me.

ABRAMS:  I‘m asking—here‘s what happens.  And again, you‘re playing the right wing play book.  You change the subject.  You do.  You change the subject as opposed to telling me what the questions were, you start going into a long history of your antipathy towards Tim Russert.

MARSH:  It‘s not antipathy.

ABRAMS:  Of course it is.

MARSH:  Wait a minute, it is not antipathy.

ABRAMS:  You‘re basically telling me all your beef with Tim Russert.

MARSH:  No, I don‘t have any beef with Tim Russert.  What I want.

ABRAMS:  He‘s not running.  Hillary Clinton is running.

MARSH:  I understand.  But you guys are giving her trouble. 

Listen, I have no dog in this fight.

ABRAMS: But apparently your article does.  Your article brings you into the fight.  Sorry.

MARSH:  Well, it does because there was Barack Obama on stage and

John Edwards.  They‘re trying to run a campaign too.  There was no follow-

up on Edwards and the money thing when he talked about the—when he was -

ABRAMS:  I assure you, it is so easy to sit here and play Monday morning quarterback.

MARSH:  It‘s not Monday -

ABRAMS:  I‘ve got to wrap it up.  I‘m sorry.

MARSH:  It‘s not Monday morning quarterback.

ABRAMS:  Of course it is.

MARSH:  No.  The bottom line is -

ABRAMS:  I‘ve got to wrap it up.

MARSH:  You can‘t go to Hillary only with the tough questions and let the other guys off the hook.

ABRAMS:  That‘s the final word.  Taylor, thanks a lot.  You get the final word on it.  Appreciate it.  Amanda.  We‘ll be right back.


ABRAMS:  It‘s time for tonight‘s Beat the Press.  First up, CNN‘s Lou Dobbs does not seem to believe his audience is too bright.  Listen to this poll question they ask and you tell me is anyone going to vote no on this ridiculous question?


LOU DOBBS:  Tonight‘s poll question is do you believe it is time to elect a president?  Who will represent the interests of the American people and not the interest of special interest groups and corporate America?


ABRAMS:  Oh, that‘s going to be a close call.  I want a president to represent special interest groups and corporate America.


DOBBS:  The result of our poll, 99 percent of you say it‘s time to elect a president who will represent the interests of the American people and not the interest of special interest groups and corporate America.  Yes.


ABRAMS:  Lou, great question.  Come on, I give your audience more credit than that.

Halloween is a holiday where children dress up, they go candies with neighbors, maybe go to costume parties, visit a haunted house.  But of course, over at FOX it has to be something more.  A liberal conspiracy, maybe.  Here‘s Sean Hannity.


SEAN HANNITY:  Halloween is a liberal holiday because we are teaching our children to take for something for free.


ABRAMS:  For the network that invented the war on Christmas, they now wage the war on Halloween.

Up next, today, authorities search the home of a missing 23-year-old who shares that home with her police sergeant husband and their two young children.  Her husband says they had taken the money from their safe and bought new clothes that she had.  He now claims she ran off with another man.  Her family is not buying it.  Her uncle is with us.

And Paul McCartney‘s ex doing the media round.  saying the media has been driving her into depression.  Maybe if she accepted what - 45 million for less than four years fo marriage to McCartney instead of going for 100 million, the media attention might have subsided.



DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  Breaking news tonight.  A 25-year-old Nebraska teacher is allegedly on the run with her 13-year-old student.  Police believe they were having a sexual relationship and may now be traveling together in Kelsey Peterson‘s white Pontiac.  An arrest warrant has been issued for the sixth grade teacher charging her with kidnapping, child abuse and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.  Police nationwide have been notified about the missing pair.  Joining us now is AP reporter Oscar Garcia.  Oscar, thanks for taking the time.  What do we know about the search? 

OSCAR GARCIA, REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS:  No problem, Dan.  All we know about the search right now is that they haven‘t found them yet.  And really, police aren‘t giving too much more than that.  We just know a couple of details.  We know that the kid went to the school.  We know that Kelsey Peterson herself was a sixth grade Math teacher at the school.  It‘s not clear whether he took any classes from her or not.  But we - but authorities are saying that the relationship might have started about a year ago. 

ABRAMS:  And they went on the run because they had been discovered, correct?

GARCIA:  Well, the teacher was placed on administrative leave on Thursday, and her laptop was confiscated by district officials.  And the pair went missing sometime either Friday night or early Saturday morning.  So it was about then.  And people around there are saying that it was after they were discovered, yes. 

ABRAMS:  Do we know how they were discovered?  Did someone turn them in? 

Did the kid‘s mother say something?  Do we know what happened? 

GARCIA:  We don‘t know exactly what happened.  I asked district officials that‘s question as well as local authorities, the Dawson County attorney, and they are not disclosing it at this time.  

ABRAMS:  All right.  Oscar Garcia, thanks a lot.  Appreciate it.

GARCIA:  No problem.  Take care. 

ABRAMS:  Now, the breaking developments tonight in the case of missing nursing student Stacy(ph) Peterson.  Authorities arrived at the home she shares with her husband, Sergeant Drew Peterson, armed with a search warrant and cadaver dogs.  They searched the house, seized two vehicles while divers searched a nearby lake.  Authorities didn‘t say what they were looking for, but he was reportedly brought to police headquarters.  No charges filed.

Peterson told the Associated Press, “I believe she‘s with someone else.  But I believe she‘s safe.”  Then there‘s the fact that Sergeant Peterson‘s third wife died three years ago.  At that time, her death was called an accidental drowning.  Now prosecutors are reopening that case as they try to find out what has happened to his current wife. 

Joining me now is Stacey Peterson‘s uncle Kyle Toeches(ph) and former

FBI profiler Candice DeLong.  And joining us on the phone is Mary Frances

Bragiel, a reporter with WBBM News Radio 780.  Thanks to all of you for

coming on.  Appreciate it.  All right,

Kyle, let me start with you.  You‘ve heard some of the statements that Peterson has been making saying that she‘s bought some new clothes, that she‘s out probably with some other guy.  What do you make of that? 

KYLE TOECHES(ph), STACY PETERSON‘S UNCLE:  I never heard anything about new clothes. 

ABRAMS:  What do you make of the comment that he‘s made that she‘s probably out there with some other guy? 

TOECHES(ph):  If she was with another guy, he would know his name, his address, where he lived, how tall he was, and everything about him. 

ABRAMS:  So you don‘t buy it.  

TOECHES(ph):  No.  

ABRAMS:  What does the family think of him? 

TOECHES(ph):  I‘m not sure on that. 

ABRAMS:  What do you think of him? 

TOECHES(ph):  But - well, we were told that she went to paint a house.  Then we were told she went to grandpa‘s without the kids.  Then we were told that Drew and Stacy got in a fight and he went out looking for her.  And then we were told she went to Jamaica, with 25 grand.  

ABRAMS:  So it sounds like he‘s telling the family some different things about where she went? 

TOECHES(ph):  That‘s what it sounds like to me.  

ABRAMS:  All right, Mary, what do we know about the search today at the home? 


Well, the Illinois State Police were out here.  Investigators were out here pretty much mostly as you said due to a warrant that was executed.  About two hours ago, they removed three rifles from the home as well as a computer and other boxes, put it into a large van and took off.  They also removed both of the vehicles from the home earlier today, which was part of that warrant. 

ABRAMS:  And we know that he was questioned right at the police station, but it sounds like his position is, “Look, this is not a homicide, she just went off with some other guy.”  

BRAGIEL:  That‘s my understanding.  He was questioned, Dan, at district five headquarters here.  The standard questioning is unknown.  I will tell you this.  So he came back here and spent pretty much a good part of the afternoon at his next-door neighbor‘s house, holed up there. 

And about two hours ago, he left there and walked back into his own house as investigators were starting to leave his house.  He had a red, white and blue bandana wrapped around his face with glasses on and his hat.  He went inside and shut the door. 

The media went up to the house, knocked on the door.  He spoke to us through the screen.  He wouldn‘t show his face, saying essentially - he said the media has all their facts wrong.  And then he laughed about it and then said that he missed his wife.  

ABRAMS:  All right.  Candice, look, this is sort of a perplexing case, in particular because of the third wife having died as well.  

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Yes.  What are the chances that in a short amount of time, one man loses two wives?  Well, of course, that could happen, but what‘s notable in this particular case is based on what I‘ve read.  Both of these women, the current wife that is missing and the deceased ex-wife had told many people, friends and family, that they were afraid of him and that he had been violent and that they wanted - in particular, Stacy wanted to leave him.  

ABRAMS:  Kyle, what do you make of that? 

ABRAMS:  That was a story I heard.  She had his clothes packed the Sunday before she disappeared.  We just want Stacy back.  That‘s all we want. 

ABRAMS:  Candice, all of that, again, does not seem to be particularly good news for Sergeant Peterson.  

DELONG:  No, no.  Not at all.  I‘m sure that they are looking at him very carefully, all of these different things that we‘re hearing that he said.  The more things that he says that are inconsistent with previous things, the deeper a hole he‘s digging for himself. 

Reports that I read said that he was very domineering and controlling and followed her around.  And then to just say in response to her being missing, “I think she‘s with another man but I think she‘s safe.”  How can he know that she‘s safe?  None of it really seems to make sense.  I think he also - there‘s a story out there that he said she called him Sunday night and said she was leaving.  Well, she had her cell phone with her.  That should be easy to find out.  People that have cell phones generally use them.  They don‘t stop and use pay phones.  So he may have already said enough, that if he‘s not telling the truth, he‘s gotten himself into quite a bit of trouble. 

ABRAMS:  Yes.  All right.  We will continue to follow this.  This is a tough one.  Kyle, thanks a lot for taking the time.  I really appreciate it. 

TOECHES(ph):  Thank you.  We just want Stacy home, safe.  

ABRAMS:  Well, let‘s keep putting that.  Now, there‘s the picture.  We‘re doing that - I know that‘s why you are on the program.  There‘s the number, (815) 726-6377.  If you know anything about where Stacy Peterson is, please call.  Thanks a lot, Mary as well.  Appreciate it.

ABRAMS:  Up next, Paul McCartney‘s ex-says the media is waging a hate campaign against her.  She‘s fighting back using the media.  Can we really feel that sorry for someone who may pull in 100 million for less than four years of marriage to Sir Paul?

And later, the bounty hunter, Duane “The Dog” Chapman has his tail between his legs after he unleashed a racist tirade on tape.  You can guess whether he‘s tonight‘s winner or loser. 


ABRAMS:  We‘re back.  After Paul McCartney‘s soon-to-be ex‘s major meltdown on British TV yesterday, Heather Mills launched a fresh assault on the former Beatle on American TV today.  I had a hard time feeling that sorry for a woman who may set up to make 100 million for less than four years of marriage to Paul.  (UNINTELLIGIBLE)  But here‘s what happened yesterday. 


HEATHER MILLS, PAUL MCCARTNEY‘S ESTRANGED WIFE:  They have called me a whore, gold digger, a fantasist,.a liar, the most unbelievably hurtful things and I‘ve stayed quiet for my daughter.  We have had death threats.  I‘ve been close to suicide, so upset about this.  


MILLS:  I‘ve had worse press than a pedophile or a murderer and I‘ve done nothing but charity.  

A certain part of the tabloid created such a hate campaign against me, that they put my life and daughter‘s life at risk.  And that‘s why I considered killing myself.  Because I thought if I‘m dead, she‘s safe and she can be with her father.  And that is the truth.  That‘s the truth.


MILLS:  I‘m sick of it. 


ABRAMS:  Today, she kept going, even accusing Sir Paul of not caring that she was on the brink. 


MILLS:  When we first split, I said to Paul, “I‘m going to be crucified.  I‘m going to be - have a modern stay stoning.  You know why we split.  You know the truth.  They don‘t need to know the details, but you need to stand up and say I am responsible for the breakdown of this marriage.  You‘ll be a hero because people know it always two parties. 

But in this case it‘s very heavily one sided.”  I said, “If you say that I‘ll walk away with nothing and we will do a very gentle and quick divorce.”  And he promised he would do that.  I have evidence of that.  And he did nothing. 

MATT LAUER, HOST, “THE TODAY SHOW”:  But what about for the sake of your daughter, have you said to him, “Paul, for the sake of our daughter.”  

MILLS:  Why, I have said all of this, Matt.  I have said all of it.  Why do you think I‘ve had to record every single conversation?  Because nobody will believe me.  I have pleaded.  I have begged.  He knows that I was at a suicide point, and still, nothing has been done. 

This divorce could have been over like Eddie Murphy‘s and everybody‘s that‘s done it very dignified and quickly in moments had I been protected.  But I have to clear my name.  


ABRAMS:  Ah yes, the Eddie Murphy case of 2004.  Here now, Courtney Hazlett, top culture and entertainment columnist for MSNBC.com, and MSNBC media analyst, Steve Adubato. 

All right, Steve, you know - look, I‘m sorry that she‘s feeling this way.  She was literally was on the brink of suicide.  That‘s obviously not a laughing matter.  But the truth is that she is destined to make so much money for less than four years of marriage. 

And she could end that.  I mean, look, her lawyers could say, “You know what?  We‘ll take a lot less and we‘ll just end this,” and they are not seemingly ready to do that.  I understand, they want to make more money.  But you know, you can‘t then go and say this is going on and on and on and on.  

STEVE ADUBATO, MSNBC MEDIA ANALYST:  You know, Dan, you look at this from a variety of perspectives but you‘ve got to have a legal background.  I‘m sitting and going, “Wait a minute, I want to understand her point of view.  I want to say listen, you can‘t beat a Beatle in the press.  You just can‘t.”  A media icon, an American icon. 

You can‘t say these things about Paul McCartney because we don‘t want to believe it.  I will also say she‘s not a good media performer.  I mean, I want to be empathetic.  I want to be supportive.  But when you see that tape, the problem is she just doesn‘t come across as someone who you are going to feel sorry for, even though I want to.  

ABRAMS:  She was on “Dancing with the Stars.”  I mean, this is not like - right?  I mean this is not someone who‘s gone into a hole?


Exactly, Dan.  “Dancing with the Stars” - This isn‘t the smartest thing she has ever done, Dan, with “Dancing with the Stars.”  Because suddenly, everyone said oh, she‘s a human being.  She‘s not just this gold digging money grabbing woman who wants more out of her ex-husband than she‘s willing to get.  

ABRAMS:  But you can‘t complain about the media and then go on “Dancing with the Stars.”

HAZLETT:  That‘s precisely my point.  And it‘s also why I say - Paul McCartney, if you are listening, implore you, open your checkbook.  Write a check.  Make it all stop.  Because this has just become - It‘s insanity.  It‘s not hurting him.  And it won‘t hurt him too, if he just commits a rounding error with his fortune, which is essentially what it is.  Just write the check and let‘s be done with it.  

ABRAMS:  This is her talking about the money and how much money she supposedly is asking for, et cetera. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE TV HOST:  They have been saying that, you know, you

want 50 million.  And there is a -

MILLS:  I have been offered nothing.  These figures are made up.  Hundred million.  50 million.  20 million.  This million.  How do you know if I even want any money?  I‘m 1.5 million in debt in lawyer‘s fees.  


ABRAMS:  Oh, please.  I mean, come on, Steve.  

ADUBATO:  OK.  I came here to defend Heather Mills.  I came here to say it‘s not a fair fight.  I understand her frustration.  As I‘m watching the tape, I‘m having a hard time, Dan.  I just want to be honest.  She just comes across as a whiner.  And so I can‘t defend her anymore.  I want but I can‘t. 

ABRAMS:  You don‘t have to.  

HAZLETT:  And also in the years I‘ve been covering celebrities, one thing I have learned is where there‘s smoke, there‘s fire.  In this case, there‘s been no smoke.  Heather Mills is the only one crying fire here.  

ABRAMS:  And she wants to talk about the breakdown of their marriage.  Right, is it?  Look, I don‘t really care, honestly, why - I feel bad for them both.  I‘m sorry.  I don‘t know if they stopped talking, one of them cheated, whatever.  That‘s not the point.  The point is that the reason that this is going on so long is about the money. 

ADUBATO:  You‘re convinced that that‘s what it is.  Do you think on some level, Dan, after “Dancing with the Stars,” she thought she might get a gig?  She might be able to work in the industry.  Now that it hasn‘t happened, she‘s frustrated, angry.  She‘s lashing out, but she‘s (UNINTELLIGIBLE).


ABRAMS:  Final word, Courtney. 

HAZLETT:  Final word?  Please, Paul McCartney, pay this woman some money and make it all go away.  We can‘t handle that anymore.  Heather Mills, enough is enough.  We get it now.  I‘m sure she wanted that gig, but it didn‘t happen.  Let‘s move on.  

ADUBATO:  She needs to go away, too. 

ABRAMS:  She can co-write your column.  

ABRAMS:  Courtney Hazlett, Steve Adubato, thanks a lot. 

Up next, in “Winners and Losers,” two passionate pandas caught - No, that‘s not the pandas.  There, that‘s it!  The passionate pandas caught making out twice a day for the past 10 months in a Japanese zoo.

A masked man sets off fireworks inside a wine shop as a Halloween prank.

And Duane “The Dog” Chapman, has his tail between his legs tonight, after being caught in a racist rant.  Sparks between loving pandas.  A shop keeper who puts sparkling fire crackers or a racially charged tirade that it sparked outrage?   Which will be tonight‘s big winner or loser?  Coming up. 

ABRAMS:  It‘s time for tonight‘s “Winners and Losers” for this first day of November, 2007.  Our first winner, a pair of passionate pandas putting on a show at a Japanese zoo.  Nothing could separate these lip-locked lovers caught making out twice a day for the past 10 months.  


Amused onlookers quickly realized this was more than just a bear hug and not just a play for attention but real furry fireworks. 

Our first loser, a British man caught setting off fireworks as a play for attention.  The mischievous masked man slipped inside a wine shop, slid the fireworks across the floor, and bolted for the exit, leaving behind an unamused shopkeeper who whizzed through the dangerous display and kicked the explosives out the door. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Thank you.  Come again.


ABRAMS:  Our second winner, Indian superman Saroes Khumar(ph) who lit up his small village with his amazing powers.  It seems he is shock proof.  That‘s right.  Electricity apparently can run through his body and he remains unharmed.


ADAM SANDLER:  Ah!  You‘re sick!  You‘re sick!  Why would you do that to me?  I‘m just kidding you, pal. 


ABRAMS:  Hobbies like hanging off high tension wires and climbing power poles leave Khumar(ph) just asking to be shocked, yet he is left unfazed. 

Our second loser?  That Florida student shocked after begging not to be Tased. 


ANDREW MEYER, STUDENT:  Don‘t tase me, bro.  Ah!  Aw!

ABRAMS:  Twenty-one-year-old Andrew Meyer became a radical celeb after stirring trouble at a John Kerry event in September, and then getting tased.  He backed down today admitting that he was wrong. 


MEYER:  I did step out of line at the forum.  I broke the forum rules and I want to apologize for that.  There were rules in place.  I did not follow the rules.  And that‘s my fault. 


ABRAMS:  But the big winners of the day?   Mexican rescuers who saved a family from raging floodwaters, stranded and desperate with only the roof of their home to hold onto.  The rescues then plucked them from peril.  A terrifying ordeal has left the Mexican family up to their necks in water. 

The big loser of the day?  One-time Mexican fugitive Duane “Dog” Chapman, up to his neck in trouble after the release of a racially-charged voice mail message to his son.  


DUANE “THE DOG” CHAPMAN:  Not going to take a chance ever in life for losing everything I have worked for, for 30 years for some (EXPLETIVE DELETED) who (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and turned us into “The Enquirer” magazine.  


The bounty hunter swears he is not a racist and apologized for the rant, but the A&E network suspended production of his show after the voicemail went public. 


CHAPMAN:  I‘m not taking a chance on some (EXPLETIVE DELETED) if she‘s a Mexican, a whore, whatever - it‘s not because she is black but because we use the word (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sometimes here.  It‘s not because you‘re black.  It‘s none of that.  It‘s that we use the word (EXPLETIVE DELETED), but we don‘t mean you (EXPLETIVE DELETED) scum without a soul.  We don‘t mean that (EXPLETIVE DELETED).  But America would think we mean that. 


ABRAMS:  Lead commentator Chuck Nice(ph) from VH1‘s “Best Week Ever” joins us.  All right, Chuck.

CHUCK NICE, COMMENTATOR, “BEST WEEK EVER”:  Hey, Dan, how are you?  

ABRAMS:  Any way for him to get out of this one? 

NICE:  I don‘t know.  I‘m thinking maybe a racist rehab, something along those lines, you know.  You know what‘s funny is he says, “I‘m not a Don Imus.”  It‘s like, “Yes, you‘re right.  You‘re right.  You make Don Imus look like Martin Luther King.  

ABRAMS:  A lot of people like Dog.  Dog‘s been on this show a lot of times. 

I didn‘t know this side of him at all.  Is that going to help him - can

that help him get out of this or that tape just -

NICE:  I don‘t know.  It‘s so damning - I mean, the evidence.  First of all, Dan, it‘s not like Imus where he was making the joke, clearly, it was a misguided joke.  But it‘s a private conversation where you are letting your hair down, or shall I say mullet.  You‘re letting your mullet down and you‘re having a little conversation with your son. 

And so these things are real.  This is the way he feels.  I just like the fact that he has a hierarchy of the “N” word.  It‘s like the soulless “N” word, you know, the soulless scumbag “N” word, and then the every day “N” word that moves in next-door and marries your daughter.  

ABRAMS:  Look, he‘s saying that it was taken out of context.  

NICE: Which means that whatever he really said was a hell of a lot worse. 


NICE:  If this is taken out of context.  

ABRAMS:  What about the fact that his role is as a bad guy, right?  I mean, that‘s his TV role.  He plays the bad dirty guy who goes and gets bad guys.  

NICE:  Maybe that‘s the only thing that will help him.  It‘s like, you know, he deals with scum bags all day long.  He is now one.  Perhaps this will help his image.  

ABRAMS:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he‘s supposedly the good guy who‘s getting the bad guys but dealing in this sort of underworld.  

NICE:  That should be his, you know, excuse.  They rubbed off on me.  

ABRAMS:  What‘s his punishment, Chuck? 

NICE:  I think his punishment should be quite frankly that his son - you know, he said he‘s dating a Mexican.  He should have to date the bluest, blackest female Negro you can find.  And then give him half blue-black, half bounty hunter grandchildren.  

ABRAMS:  I‘ve got to go.  Too bad, guys.  I‘ve always liked Dog.  I‘m sorry to - Anyway, thanks.

NICE:  Always a pleasure.

ABRAMS:  That‘s all the time we have for tonight.



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