Guests: Kent Conrad, Katrina vanden Heuvel, Barbara Mikulski, Rep. John
Dingell, Roy Sekoff, Ernest Istook, Laura Flanders, Mark Shurtleff, Scott
HOST: Good evening, Americans, and welcome to THE ED SHOW
tonight from New York.
These stories are hitting my hot buttons tonight.
Democrats who voted for health care reform, believe it or not, are
getting death threats. And elected Republicans are practically silent on
I‘ve got a lot to say about this coming up in just a moment.
Republicans are hoping the courts will kill health care reform in this
country. I‘ll go head-to-head with an attorney general who‘s suing the
federal government. That‘s coming up.
Plus, shocking numbers on just how many American jobs have been
shipped to China and how every state has been hit by outsourcing. That‘s
coming up on the program.
But, of course, the story that‘s got me fired up tonight, I can‘t
believe it‘s come to this point. Hate is shaking the halls of the
Is this why they wanted to get elected? Give me a break.
House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said today that members of his
caucus are being threatened. Today, Capitol Police and the FBI briefed
Democrats about the incidents of violence.
The FBI has started a preliminary investigation after fuel lines were
cut at the brother of Virginia Congressman Tom Perriello‘s home. Lynchburg
Tea Party member Mike Proxell (ph) was trying to post the congressman‘s
address, but posted his brother‘s by mistake. One of those bright ones out
On Monday, he posted this online: “Just in case any of his friends and
neighbors want to drop by and say hi and express their thanks regarding his
vote for health care, nothing quite does that like a good face-to-face
chat. It has a much more personal touch to it.”
Now, just think about what‘s happening here. Would you like it if
someone did that to you? Would you like it if you were the boss of a
company, or if you were a supervisor, and somebody posted that and said why
don‘t you go over to their house?‘
What is going on here?
Tea Partiers, is this your mission?
Dick Armey, where‘s your voice tonight?
Now, we don‘t know if this was an act of political terrorism. At this
hour, elected members of the Congress are nervous, and they should be.
Hoyer wants Republicans to stand up and condemn these threats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. STENY HOYER (D), MAJORITY LEADER: I would hope that we would
join together, jointly, and make it very clear that none of us condone this
kind of activity. And that when we see it, that we speak out strongly in
opposition to it. And I would hope that we would do that going forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: So, here‘s the number. Steny Hoyer said more than 10 House
Democrats have reported incidents of threats or other forms of harassment
because they supported a health care bill.
Now, this is as serious as it gets, folks. You know, we haven‘t seen
this kind of stuff happen in this country since the days of civil rights
back in the ‘60s, where elected leaders are encouraging this stuff today.
What‘s going on?
Listen to Majority Whip Jim Clyburn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: I think all of us learned
some great lessons from the ‘60s and ‘70s, and there‘s some lessons that
none of us want to repeat. But one thing we know, as Steny Hoyer just
said, silence gives consent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: And, of course, some are not so silent. Sarah Palin loves
to get involved, doesn‘t she? She posted a list of 20 members of Congress
that conservatives should target in 2010.
On her Facebook page, she writes, “We‘ll aim for these races.” I
mean, this is crazy. “And many others. This is just the first salvo in a
fight to elect people across the nation who will bring common sense to
Just take a look at this map and how she put it out. She actually put
crosshairs on a map and is talking about elected members of the Congress.
Hoyer made this comment about that today—
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOYER: When people start talking in the rhetoric of putting people on
firing lines, that if they don‘t do something they will have physical harm
done to them, other rhetoric of that type, or they put a target on their
faces with crosshairs, that activity ought to been unacceptable in our
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Congresswoman Louise Slaughter of New York and Bart Stupak
of Michigan, oh, I guess the Tea Partiers are happy about this. Those two
representatives have received death threats.
Right-wing media and members of the Congress on the right bear, I
think, major responsibility for this. For the past year they have spent so
much time whipping up their base about socialism, death panels and a
A Harris poll shows 24 percent of Republicans think President Obama is
the antichrist. What are we dealing with here?
These threats are the culmination of the misinformation campaign that
the Republicans have engaged in. Now, they‘ve been lying from the start
about health care reform and they‘ve whipped everybody up about it, and
they just aren‘t attacking the Democrats. Oh, no, anybody who‘s associated
They‘re on a crusade to smear, professionally smear, the Congressional
Budget Office after the CBO numbers showed that health care, this bill,
will actually save money. It will save $138 billion over the first 10
years and it will cut the deficit by $1.2 trillion over the second 10
Folks, numbers don‘t lie. The Republicans do.
The CBO is not some left-wing think tank. It‘s a nonpartisan
government agency that provides economic data for both Democrats and
Republicans in the Congress, ,and they‘ve been doing it for years. And the
Republicans can‘t argue with the facts.
So, what do they do? They decide to attack the messenger, calling it
a joke, it‘s no good, these numbers are phony. These, I thought, were
professional people at the CBO.
Joining me now is North Dakota Senator Kent Conrad. He is the
chairman of the Senate Budget Committee and, of course, is very involved in
the process of selecting the director of the Congressional Budget Office.
Kent, great to have you with us tonight. I appreciate your time.
SEN. KENT CONRAD (D), NORTH DAKOTA: Good to be with you.
SCHULTZ: I wanted to give somebody in the Congress an opportunity to
speak to how professional the CBO is and just how they operate.
Are these 250 people that work at the CBO, are they political hacks?
Who are they? What are they?
CONRAD: These are professionals. They‘re hired on a nonpartisan
basis. They are very much respected by members of Congress on both sides
of the aisle.
Look, I disagree with them from time to time, but I respect their
independence and their need to be independent. If we‘re going to have an
objective scorekeeper—let me just say this—it‘s fascinating that some
Republicans now are accusing the CBO of having a political bias when,
earlier this year, the director of CBO, Director Elmendorf, testified
before my committee that some of the earlier versions of health care reform
did not reduce the deficit, did not bend the cost curve in the right way.
They didn‘t complain then because he was finding what they wanted to have
Now that the legislation has been changed so that it does reduce the
deficit, and the CBO has found precisely that, they claim bias. So they
are clearly talking out of both sides of their mouth.
They were praising him when they—when he agreed with them earlier
in the area on different drafts of the bill. They criticize him now when
the legislation has been changed to, in fact, reduce the deficit in both
the short term and the long term. And as you said, over the next decade to
reduce the deficit by over a trillion dollars.
Not a million. Not a billion. A trillion dollars.
SCHULTZ: Senator, you believe the numbers?
CONRAD: Look, I think all of us know that making these forecasts is
an imperfect business. Do I believe the objectivity and the
professionalism of the people at CBO? I absolutely do. Look, I‘m the
SCHULTZ: I mean, I think the point here—you are the chairman of
the Budget Committee, no doubt. And you‘ve spent your whole career in
Washington on finance and budget. So—but the righties are out there
presenting the case that, hey, the CBO is cooking the books so we can pass
health care in this country.
CONRAD: Let me just say this to you. You remember I advanced a
proposal called the Cooperative Proposal for Nonprofit Insurance.
SCHULTZ: I do.
CONRAD: I am the chairman of the Budget Committee, and CBO criticized
my proposal. So I think that says a lot about their independence.
I didn‘t agree with them, but they criticized the proposal by the
chairman of the committee that oversees them. I think that tells you
something about their professionalism. And while I may have disagreed with
them on that, I absolutely respect their integrity.
SCHULTZ: How are we doing in the Senate, Senator? How is this
reconciliation coming along? Do you expect it to go pretty smooth from
here on out?
CONRAD: I do. I think there will probably be a hiccup along the way,
but I think we‘re in very strong shape to finish this legislation in the
next 24 hours or so.
Senator, good to have you with us.
CONRAD: You bet.
SCHULTZ: And thanks for all your hard work on health care reform.
And you the numbers guy. I think you‘re the most credible guy in
Washington when it comes to knowing the numbers, and I think somebody needs
to stand up for the CBO.
I appreciate your time.
CONRAD: Glad to do it.
SCHULTZ: Senator Conrad from North Dakota, chairman of Budget
I want to get back to the topic of hate and threats the Democrats are
facing right now.
Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think about this.
Tonight‘s text survey is: Do you think the Republicans should do more
to condemn the threats of violence against Democrats? Text “A” for yes and
“B” for no to 622639. We‘ll bring you the results later on in the show.
Joining me now is Katrina vanden Heuvel, editor of “The Nation.”
Katrina, this is serious stuff. I mean, when you‘ve got fuel lines
being cut to people‘s homes, put a match to that and see where it ends up.
When you have got the N-word being thrown out, bricks being thrown through
windows, I mean, this is the kindling of something greater.
What should the congressional leaders do and say to the country?
KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, EDITOR, “THE NATION”: This is accountability
time. I mean, we have, for the last year or more, seen a party march in
lockstep in resistance to President Obama‘s reforms, talking about
crippling or killing his reforms. I think we have seen a party of
incoherent rage fused with this right-wing subculture alien to logic and
fact, ,if not to compassion.
So I think this is a moment where responsible conservatives in the
tradition—because there‘s a history here, Ed. Think of the good
congresswoman from Maine, Margaret Chase Smith, who in 1950, in a
declaration of conscience, spoke to her country and her party and said
enough about the smears during the McCarthy period, enough. Because we are
seeing the fanning and the fueling of an ugliness and viciousness that is
not alien to this country, but it is at a perilous moment.
And I remember being on this station with Michele Bachmann before the
election of President Obama, and I said I fear for the republic, because
she spoke of rooting out those who are un-American. What does that suggest
to a nation which has much better work to do than talk about who is un-
So we need, I think, Ed, for those good citizens of all parties to
stand strong and not let this intimidation do anything but stiffen our
spine and resolve to fight for reform in this nation because we are better
SCHULTZ: I can‘t remember the last time 10 members of the Congress
asked for security. And I—and this does take us back to the ‘60s, some
of the antics. But now we‘ve got the new information age and all the
different ways to communicate. This can boil into something pretty
dangerous, pretty past.
What do you think the responsibility of the media is?
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, I just want to say Representatives Clyburn and
Lewis, veterans, heroes of the civil rights struggle, spoke in interesting
ways, because it is different now. Because the power of the states
protection is on their side. It is different than when hoses were aimed at
African-Americans fighting for their civil rights.
I think the responsibility of the media is to expose those who would
purvey and peddle fear and disinformation. Hold accountable Mr. Boehner,
who says that we should channel this anger into positive change and not
allow violence to mar the American republic.
I think we have to hold them accountable and we need to expose, Ed,
this language to show—not to censor speech, but to say we don‘t talk
like that in America about racial slurs at this time. The civilizing
advances in one of them, though there‘s more to do on the health care
front, one of the civilizing advances was just passed. And I think when
the status quo reactionary forces see change they fear it, and in fear
there‘s violence. And that we have to tamp down, and the media can play a
SCHULTZ: Katrina vanden Heuvel of “The Nation.”
Thanks for joining us tonight, Katrina.
Coming up, if you were offended when George W. Bush told Brownie he
was doing a heck of a job after Hurricane Katrina, just wait until you see
what he did in Haiti. You truly have to see this to believe it.
Plus Utah‘s Republican attorney general is suing the federal
government in an attempt to undo health care reform. He has met his match.
I‘m going head to head with him in the “Playbook.”
All that, plus G. Gordon Liddy lands in the zone. You won‘t believe
this one. He wants to eliminate a religion.
You‘re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.
SCHULTZ: I just couldn‘t wait, folks. In “Psycho Talk” tonight, this
is a dandy. Former convicted felon, righty talker G. Gordon Liddy let his
bigoted colors just fly high on his radio show today by threatening an
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
G. GORDON LIDDY, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Oh, I‘m not casual at all
about Islam. I want to go over there and take them out.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: He says he‘s not casual about Islam and he‘s dead serious
about wanting to take them out.
Folks, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier tonight and
last night. These righty wing nuts go out and spew hateful rhetoric and
they rile up the crackpots of America to go to dangerous stuff like cut
people‘s gas lines.
A nonstop diet of hate from right-wingers is why a recent poll found
that almost a quarter of Republicans think that President Obama could be
the Antichrist. In that same poll, 57 percent of Republicans thought that
the president was Muslim.
So, for G. Gordon Liddy to say that he‘s serious about taking out
Islam, that‘s dangerous “Psycho Talk.”
Coming up, the Tea Party sure has done a lot to embarrass the
Republican Party. Some new numbers show just what kind of damage they
could do in the midterms, and it ain‘t pretty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARBARA MIKULSKI (D), MARYLAND: I listened to the other side who
says that they listen to the people. Well, you know, you heard the old
saying, men are from Mars, women are from Venus? I think that party is
from Mars and we‘re from planet Earth.
I think they‘ve been out in orbit. The planet Earth that I‘m on tells
me to pass health insurance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Well, I‘m glad somebody finally asked what planet the
Republicans are on, because they sure aren‘t working for progress on this
one. The president‘s already signed the health care reform bill into law,
but Republicans are doing everything they possibly can to obstruct the
final reconciliation process in the Senate.
They‘re offering bogus amendments on gay marriage, ACORN, Viagra,
which have absolutely nothing to do with health care. Despite that,
Democrats may be able to get a final vote by the end of the week.
Joining me now is Maryland Senator Barbara Mikulski, a member of the
Senate HELP Committee.
Senator, way to call them on it, but outside the Capitol it has become
a lot more serious. And the rhetoric is turning into acts of vandalism.
And I‘d like you to tell the country tonight how you feel about all
the stuff that‘s going on surrounding this.
MIKULSKI: Well, first of all, I‘m so pleased that we have passed
health insurance reform. The president has signed it into law, and that we
are really bringing to an end the dilly-dallying and dithering of the other
I find all of the violent words and abusive tactics outside of this
Capitol to be absolutely un-American. You know, in the United States of
America you‘re supposed to be able to resolve your differences, have votes
straight up or down, and then move on with it.
The ugly epithets against distinguished African-Americans like
Congressman Lewis, throwing bricks through the window of Congresswoman
Slaughter, I just think, you know, words have consequences and so do deeds.
If we really want to put America first, then let‘s get back to a sensible
way of acting and a sensible way of voting.
SCHULTZ: Senator, is there anything that leadership in either house
could do to message to the country and to the media that this has gone too
far and this is kindling for something that could be much greater?
MIKULSKI: Well, first, I think that the way we‘re conducting
ourselves today, you can see that the Democrats have done it with great
dignity and great decorum. If you were at the White House yesterday and
saw President Obama signing that bill, and that little boy Marcelas, who
spoke up for his mom who had passed away because she didn‘t have health
insurance, that has got to be a message that this is serious business and
we have to have serious behavior.
The other is, is I think it is up to political leadership, but I also
think it‘s up to community leadership and church leadership to say we have
got to begin to—in this country, begin to settle our differences with
civility and common sense, even where we differ.
But, you know, I think it‘s a great distraction from what really has
been this great victory. Today, through our amendments, as we come to the
end, we‘re ending these ugly punitive practices of the insurance companies.
You know, Ed, for women, they treat being a woman as a pre-existing
condition. We had to pay more. They didn‘t want to give us insurance,
threw up all kinds of hurdles. Like, domestic violence was considered a
And then even our own CBO and leadership almost said that getting our
prevention was too expensive. And I wouldn‘t let them take our mammograms
away from us.
SCHULTZ: Senator, great to have you with us. Way to speak up and way
to get after it. I appreciate your time tonight.
Barbara Mikulski from Maryland with us here on THE ED SHOW.
Come up, today the right-wing media had a hay day with my next guest.
They took something he said—so unlike them—spun it, distorted it and
A true patriot, Congressman John Dingell, will be here to tell Drudge
what he can do with his report.
Plus, I‘ll tell you what I make of the new NFL overtime rule in my
You‘re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.
Stay with us.
SCHULTZ: And welcome back to THE ED SHOW tonight. Thanks for
watching. The right wing attack machine up in arms today over something
Democratic Congressman John Dingell of Michigan said on a conservative talk
radio show. Dingell was asked why the changes in the health care reform
bill have to be implemented over time, gradually, over the next four years.
Here‘s what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN DINGELL (D), MICHIGAN: The harsh fact of the matter is when
you‘re going to pass legislation that will cover 300 American people in
different ways, it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative
steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together, to control the
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Oh, that set off a frenzy of comments on the right wing
blogs about how Democrats are fascist and they want to enslave you.
Congressman Dingell will set the record straight in just a moment.
First, I‘d just like to remind our audience, give you a little history
the man the righties are attacking. John Dingell is a dean of the House.
He‘s been a public servant for 55 years. He started as a House Page at the
age of 16. He took over his dad‘s seat in Congress in 1955, and has been
re-elected by the voters in his district in Michigan more than two dozen
His father voted to pass Social Security. He has cast votes to pass
Medicare, the Civil Rights Act, and now the historic health care reform
bill. I think after this kind of service to his country, the man deserves
the benefit of the doubt when maybe he says something that he really didn‘t
I‘ll let the congressman from Michigan—the distinguished
congressman from Michigan, speak for himself on THE ED SHOW. Congressman
Dingell, good to have you with us tonight.
DINGELL: Thank you, Ed. Glad to be here.
SCHULTZ: What did you mean when you said control the people?
DINGELL: Well, I goofed. What I said—what I meant to say was
control the agencies that are writing the legislation, so that it will deal
fairly with the people‘s concerns. Frankly, I goofed.
SCHULTZ: Well, do you understand how—the way the rhetoric has been
going hot and heavy around the country, they‘re looking for any kind of
opening? And this would fuel them and how they think. How do you respond
DINGELL: Ed, you‘ve been absolutely right. You‘ve been doing a great
job. You‘ve been making it very, very clear that this is not the way these
issues should be fought out, that we ought to have a fair, honest, frank,
open and honorable debate. That way, the public will be best served.
SCHULTZ: Have you ever been attacked like this in your 55-year
DINGELL: I‘ve had a few attacks and an occasional death threat. I‘ve
got to tell you, it‘s never been quite this bad.
SCHULTZ: How do you respond to it?
DINGELL: Well, I just tell the truth. I have got 54 years of service
to the people. I‘m one of the authors of Medicare. I‘m one of the authors
of this legislation. I‘ve authored scores of pieces of legislation on
civil rights and on conservation and protecting the environment. And I
would never practice this kind of behavior toward the American people.
So I don‘t have any trouble in saying that it‘s wrong, that I‘ve done
what is right. And I did goof and misspeak, myself, but then so does
SCHULTZ: OK. I‘ve only done that once before, but—so you‘re not -
we want to be very clear. You‘re not trying to, you know, control the
people, make us a socialist country? Control the people, that‘s not John
DINGELL: Absolutely not. This legislation, my dear friend, Ed, is
calculated to do one thing. And that is to enhance the rights of the
American people, especially those who have insurance for health or who
don‘t have insurance for health. It‘s going to see to it that those people
have something very precious. First of all, the rights that they really
need, fair treatment.
No more pre-existing conditions can be used to ban their having
insurance. No more will the insurance companies be able to cancel their
insurance. No more will the insurance companies be able to deny people
care or to see to it that they get these funny Mickey Mouse policies that
nobody but a lawyer can understand.
SCHULTZ: It‘s going to take four years to implement because it‘s just
so big and so detailed and covers so much. You just can‘t do it all at
once. Or am I wrong?
DINGELL: No, you‘re absolutely right. And as a matter of fact, my
friend, Ed, the situation is this: you have 300 million people, all of whom
are going to be affected. You have businesses. You have all kinds of
things of that kind. We have to get in place a subsidy for the small
businessmen, who are going, for the first time, to receive that kind of
We have to see to it that the rules and regulations for proper
behavior by the insurance companies to protect the American are put in
place. We have to see to it that arrangements for financing and the other
things that are necessary to make this work are in place.
SCHULTZ: Congressman, great to have you with us tonight. Keep
DINGELL: Thank you, my friend, Ed. Pleasure to be with you.
SCHULTZ: John Dingell from Michigan with us tonight, the dean of the
For more, let‘s bring in Roy Sekoff, founding editor of the
“Huffington Post.” I‘ll tell you what, I‘ve never seen the righties, so to
speak, on patrol for material to knock down what has been a victory for
millions of Americans, Roy.
ROY SEKOFF, “THE HUFFINGTON POST”: Ed, it‘s clear that the right has
decided to double down on the crazy. We saw from the very beginning their
playbook on health care has been two things. It‘s been fear mongering and
untruths. This attack on Representative Dingell is the perfect blend of
both of those things. It‘s this crazy fear mongering that they want to
take over your health, want to take over your government. It‘s the
socialism. And it‘s just filled with untruths.
That said, they‘re just starting to scratch the surface, Ed. They
have not learned the lesson of their defeat and course corrected. Instead,
they‘re going all in. We see this right down the line, from them canceling
the Senate committees, using some arcane law to shut down the senate at
2:00, and the crazy, really incendiary language that we see Sarah Palin
bringing out. You know, Twittering her followers to reload, and having her
Facebook site with a hit list with actually gun sites over the states of
the people she‘s targeting, you know, for the 2010 election.
I mean, that‘s scary stuff, Ed, especially, you know, in the
atmosphere that we have now in Washington with the vandalism and the
SCHULTZ: Roy, is there enough progressive media out there? I guess
from your perspective and mine, there‘s never enough. But do the Democrats
need to go on right wing radio? Do they need to go on Fox? I mean, the
way the country is divided right now, you‘re not going to change anybody‘s
mind on any of this stuff. Would it be feasible for the Democrats to just
consider staying away from partisan media?
SEKOFF: I hate the idea of just going into our little corners and
preaching to our choirs. I know you like it on the show, Ed, when you get
somebody who doesn‘t agree with you. You can go back and forth. You can
have the marketplace of ideas and let the best ideas win. You know, I
wouldn‘t want to have this kind of thing where we just go to our corners
and don‘t come out fighting. I think it‘s a good exercise to really
exchange ideas and be open to them.
But not this kind of crazy bomb-throwing, you know, with the imagery
of Nancy Pelosi standing in front of a fire, and this gun imagery, and all
this kind of crazy stuff.
SCHULTZ: Roy, do you think the president should address all of the
antics that are taking place?
SEKOFF: Well, I don‘t think he has to go down into the weeds and take
Tea Bagger by Tea Bagger and take those each things. I think we can have a
larger discussion. I think what Obama did, he learned the lesson of
Massachusetts and he came out and said, OK, I‘m going to put away this
obsession with bipartisanship, and I‘m going to, you know, pin my ears back
and go for it. I think that‘s what he needs to keep doing.
If he keeps doing that, I think the Republican party is going to be
revealed for what they are, which is a party of no ideas, no solutions, at
a time when we need them desperately.
SCHULTZ: And mean and nasty. You‘re exactly right.
SEKOFF: Ugly as can be. Yeah.
SCHULTZ: I want to get some rapid fire response from our panel
tonight on these stories. Some democrats who voted for health care reform
are now getting death threats and having their property vandalized. That‘s
not protesting. It‘s political terrorism.
A new poll shows the Tea Partiers will help the Republicans in tight
races this fall, unless they run a candidate of their own.
With us tonight, Laura Flanders, who is the author of “Blue Grit” and
host of “Grit TV,” and Ernest Istook, former Republican congressman and now
a distinguished fellow at the Heritage Foundation.
Ernie, what‘s happening with the right wing in this country, the
conservatives in this country? The over the top rhetoric, the acts of
vandalism, how do you address that?
ERNEST ISTOOK, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: First of all, I condemn any sort
of vandalism or violent rhetoric. But let‘s remember that it happens on
both sides. Was it just last month, Ed, that you said that they ought to
rip out the heart of Dick Cheney?
SCHULTZ: And getting the best health care in the country, he should
become the—wait a minute. No, no—
ISTOOK: It‘s that kind of rhetoric. It comes from both sides.
SCHULTZ: No, that‘s not rhetoric. The fact is that was said on a
radio talk show—and that doesn‘t excuse it. But the fact is I said, we
want a successful conclusion for the vice president, because we want him to
become the poster child. Everybody in the country should have the same
health care as Dick Cheney, because most—
ISTOOK: Rip his heart out, Ed?
SCHULTZ: Wait a minute. And stuff it back in him, and make sure that
he survives and has the best health care. You know, this is what happens
in America. Making a joke and then—
ISTOOK: My point is it happens on both sides.
SCHULTZ: No, it doesn‘t happen on both sides, because I haven‘t cut
anybody‘s fuel line, Ernest. You know that.
ISTOOK: Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber murdered people. He was an
environmental extremist. It does happen on both sides.
SCHULTZ: It‘s not happening on both sides at this level. You know
ISTOOK: I received death threats. I had a man go to prison for
threatening to kill me and dismember me.
SCHULTZ: OK. All right. So the Tea Partiers, it‘s just normal
operation procedure, correct, Ernie? Is that what your answer is?
SCHULTZ: You‘re the problem, Ernest. Ernest, you are the problem.
You can‘t—Ernest, you can‘t point the finger at the culprit in any of
this. That‘s the problem, right there.
ISTOOK: Those were the first words out of my mouth, to condemn that.
SCHULTZ: Oh, yeah, then, of course, saying it happens on both sides
when it doesn‘t. It‘s not happening on both sides. Democrats are not—
ISTOOK: I didn‘t get threats from the right. I got them from the
SCHULTZ: Tell me a Democrat who‘s thrown a brick through a window,
who has also recently threatened families, and also left messages about how
you‘re going to die. Tell me who those people are on the left right now.
ISTOOK: Like I said, Ed, a man went to prison for threatening to kill
me because I would not vote to legalize marijuana. That wasn‘t coming from
the right. That was coming from the left.
SCHULTZ: So I guess you‘re condoning it then. Laura, your thoughts
ISTOOK: Condemn it on both sides.
SCHULTZ: It doesn‘t mean anything, Ernest. You lose your credibility
when you say it‘s both sides, for not condemning it the way it is right
now. You will not tell Boehner to come out and absolutely condemn this.
ISTOOK: Read “Politico.” Boehner already condemned that.
SCHULTZ: I don‘t have to read it. I have my own show. I have to
apologize to my audience tonight. This was not the way this interview was
supposed to go. This is how the righties operate. They can‘t even give
good commentary without attacking.
Laura, I‘ll give you an opportunity, since Ernest has taken up most of
the time. Your thoughts on what the Congress should do to address the
rhetoric going on in this country.
LAURA FLANDERS, “GRIT TV”: I‘m amazed that Ernie from Oklahoma isn‘t
ashamed in himself for talking in the way he has. Let‘s face it, we have
got a situation—you said, is it too personal? It‘s institutional.
There‘s no question that there‘s an institutional imbalance in the way that
people respond to hate speech.
Let‘s just look at this week and talk about imbalance. On Sunday—
or rather Saturday, I think it was—you had five or so people arrested
for putting coffins up there against the White House fence, on
commemoration of the invasion of Iraq. The next day, you have the Capitol
Police doing nothing while the Tea Partiers spat on Congress-people going
into Congress and called them the “N” word. You have a situation that
reminds me, Ed, of that whole—
SCHULTZ: They said they were sorry, Laura.
FLANDERS: Yeah. Let‘s look at history a little bit.
SCHULTZ: Ernest says it happens on both sides.
FLANDERS: We don‘t have doctors dead on the right. We don‘t have
feminists under attack on the right. We don‘t have racial minorities under
attack by organized left wing groups. They said, first, they came for the
communist. Now they‘re coming for legislators.
It‘s time we all woke up and called this stuff out. You mentioned
Gordon Liddy. In the ‘90s, he was out there saying shoot for the head,
shoot for the head on his talk show. You know, hosts like that shouldn‘t
continue to be on the air a decade later. We‘ve got to get bigger than
SCHULTZ: Ernest, I‘ll give you one more chance here. Do you condone
what Sarah Palin is doing, putting cross-hair bull‘s-eyes on where they
have to target to get Democrats out of office?
ISTOOK: I think it‘s a bad choice of imagery. I‘ve seen—you know,
the term hit list is a common term. It‘s not unique—
SCHULTZ: Common term. Hit list has no connotation to it at all?
Wow. I have to run.
ISTOOK: The point is, I agree, it‘s a bad choice of images she made.
SCHULTZ: I appreciate both of you being on the program tonight.
Thanks so much. We‘ll have a little bit more later on.
I want to say one thing about the former vice president. I‘m glad
that he had a successful conclusion. And I hope he doesn‘t have anymore
heart attacks. And certainly anybody who has five heart attacks and
survives is a pretty tough cookie. I hope every American in this country
who has that kind of heart trouble will be able to keep their insurance.
Coming up, George W. Bush sure knows how to take the word “human” out
of a humanitarian. I‘ll show you that in a moment. That was caught on
tape. That‘s next in the playbook.
SCHULTZ: In my playbook tonight, less than ten minutes after
President Obama signed the health care bill yesterday, 14 states filed
lawsuits against the government. Thirteen States attorneys general banned
together to file a single lawsuit in a Florida federal court. Those states
include Washington, Idaho, Utah, Colorado, South Dakota, Nebraska,
Michigan, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and
Florida. Virginia‘s attorney general is filing a separate suit against the
health care bill.
Their main objections to the bill are that the requirement that most
Americans purchase insurance and the expansion of Medicaid. For more, let
me bring in Attorney General Mark Shurtleff of Utah, one of the states that
has filed a suit against the health care bill.
What‘s the issue here? What do you really take issue with? Is it the
MARK SHURTLEFF, UTAH ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, it is. It‘s that
individual mandate that requires every American to, for the first time in
the history of America, to actually buy a product or face a penalty for it.
I‘ve been listening to your program. I‘ll be one elected official who
absolutely condemns hate speech and vandalism and all the rhetoric. What
we‘re doing going to court is really the antithesis of that. We have a
legal disagreement, and the courts are set up to resolve it. That‘s what
we‘re doing, Ed.
SCHULTZ: You know, I have no problem with that. That is—you being
the number one law enforcement official in the judiciary—in the justice
system in Utah, I commend you for saying that. We‘ve lost sight of how we
have, you know, rules, regulations and laws that guide things in this
country. And my purpose for having you on here, tonight, is that—is
there really legal merit for states to challenge a federal law? I mean,
doesn‘t federal law supersede state law? What do you think?
SHURTLEFF: Ed, it does. They can‘t just pass any law and just say,
because we‘re the feds, then we supersede any state law. They can only
pass laws granted to them within the jurisdiction granted to them in the
Constitution. Argument in this case is that there‘s no specific grant in
the Constitution to do that individual mandate.
Now, I know they will argue—the feds will argue vigorously that
this expansion of the Commerce Clause somehow gives them this authority.
We don‘t believe so. We believe, therefore, under the Tenth Amendment,
those rights are reserved to the states, and insurance, in particular, just
like auto insurance. Health care, medical insurance has been left to the
states. Traditionally speaking, this is the first time the federal
government is taking over.
That will be the specific kind of constitutional challenge to it,
whether they actually have this authority.
SCHULTZ: Mr. Shurtleff, do you think you can win this? Do you think
these states can win this against the federal government?
SHURTLEFF: Ed, I‘m a realist. Any time you go to federal court and
ask the federal court to limit federal power and authority, it‘s an uphill
battle. There‘s no doubt about that. I do think we have a reasonable
opportunity. I‘m not going to file something for purposes of delay. I
mean, it needs to be resolved.
I think because of a couple of decisions in the last ten years, Lopez,
Morrison—I won‘t get into the details of the cases. The courts have now
started to say that the Commerce Clause isn‘t unlimited, that you actually
have to show specifically that it applies and that the states haven‘t
regulated it. With the current makeup of the Supreme Court, I think
there‘s a reasonable likelihood that possibly on a five to four, when we
get there, that we might be able to have them determine that this just went
There‘s much to be praising in this health care reform, but it‘s the
process we‘re concerned about. And they just need to follow the law in
SCHULTZ: Attorney General Mark Shurtleff from Utah, good to have you
with us tonight. Thank you so much.
SHURTLEFF: Thanks, Ed.
SCHULTZ: A couple more pages in our playbook tonight. Former
President Bill Clinton and George W. Bush took their first joint trip to
Haiti on Monday to promote continuing relief efforts in the earthquake
shattered country. President Bush managed to overshadow the good works
with one swipe of his hands. The former presidents were glad handing with
a crowd of Haitians when cameras caught President Bush wiping his hands off
on Clinton‘ shirt.
He didn‘t even try to disguise it. He went straight from a handshake
to a blatant hand wipe. When it comes to disaster zones, George is better
off sticking to flyovers, isn‘t he?
All right, one more page in my playbook tonight; less than two months
after my Minnesota Vikings were shafted in the playoffs by an overtime
field goal, the NFL is changing the rules. Starting next season, the team
that wins the overtime coin toss won‘t be able to win the game with just a
field goal. Sudden death will still apply, if that team scores a
touchdown. Otherwise, the opposing team will get a chance to score. If
the game is tied after the first OT, play will continue under the old
sudden death rules.
Coming up, you may not know this yet, but we are at economic war with
China; 2.4 million jobs were lost less than—in less than one decade. My
next guest tells us exactly who‘s really getting hit on this. That‘s
coming up next on THE ED SHOW.
SCHULTZ: Finally tonight on THE ED SHOW, there was a new report out
telling us just how many jobs this country is losing to China. The
Economic Policy Institute found that, between 2001 and 2008, the United
States lost 2.4 million jobs as a result of a growing trade deficit with
China. The losses are distributed across the country. Every single
Congressional district has lost jobs. More than 1.6 million of them were
in the manufacturing sector. But high-tech jobs, like those in computer
and electronic industries, also took a huge hit, making up a quarter of the
total jobs lost.
The hardest-hit states, based on percent of jobs lost to China, are
New Hampshire, North Carolina, Massachusetts, California, Oregon, and
Minnesota. Joining me now to talk about it is Scott Paul, executive
director of the Alliance for American Manufacturing.
Mr. Paul, good to have you back with us tonight. Is this the first
time that we‘ve ever really taken a close look at where the jobs are being
SCOTT PAUL, AMERICAN ALLIANCE FOR MANUFACTURING: Absolutely, it is.
I think it‘s very illuminating. The results even surprised me. We were
able to drill down with this Economic Policy Institute data, and find, from
California to Maine, just how many jobs were lost and by industry as well.
And I think the challenge for Washington is going to be jobs are the
number-one issue. Voters are angry. China‘s clearly eating our lunch. I
think they‘re going to expect answers. So far, all they‘ve seen is more
outsourcing to China.
SCHULTZ: Now, the hardest hit areas, as far as districts are
concerned, there‘s eight in California, four in North Carolina, three in
Texas, two in Massachusetts and one each in Oregon, Georgia and Alabama.
These are the top 20 hardest hit districts, losing more than 8,600 jobs.
Now, is this just by chance that these parts of the country are getting hit
so hard? Or is it just industry targeted?
PAUL: There‘s a common thread. It is the industry that‘s competing
with China, Ed. Frankly, they‘re competing unfairly because of a currency
advantage China has and some other subsidies, lax labor and environmental
standards. These are districts that have a high concentration of either
manufacturing or high-tech goods. They‘ve been clobbered.
I don‘t think it surprises people, Ed, that we‘ve lost jobs from the
Midwest and we‘ve lost jobs from manufacturing. I think one of the
illuminating things about this report is that we‘re losing these high-tech
jobs, these high-wage jobs, and that the job losses are not only in the
Midwest, but they‘re in Texas and California, places like that.
SCHULTZ: Quickly, Senator Schumer is talking about currency
manipulation. Do we have to do this? How paramount is it?
PAUL: We have to do two things. The Obama administration needs to
designate China as a currency manipulator. They‘ll have the opportunity to
do that by April 15th. Congress needs to pass a bill to sanction China if
they don‘t re-evaluate the currency. That will boost U.S. jobs by the
hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Senator Schumer says he wants a
vote on that legislation by May.
SCHULTZ: Scott Paul, great to have you with us tonight. Thanks so
much for the update.
Tonight in our text survey, I asked do you think Republicans should do
more to condemn the threats of violence against Democrats? Ninety six
percent of you said yes; four percent said no.
That‘s THE ED SHOW. I‘m Ed Schultz. “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews
starts right now. We‘re back tomorrow night, looking forward to it, right
here on THE ED SHOW, 6:00 eastern, on your place for politics, MSNBC.
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