updated 4/28/2010 11:06:56 AM ET 2010-04-28T15:06:56

Guest: Luis Gutierrez, Steve McMahon, Daniel Kane, Sen. Jeff Merkley, Joan Walsh, Heidi Harris, Walter Hang, Howard Dean

ED SCHULTZ, HOST:  Good evening, Americans, and welcome to THE ED SHOW

tonight from New York.

These stories are hitting my hot buttons tonight. 

I think Arizona‘s Republican senators bear a lot of blame for the

immigration problem in their state.  John McCain‘s had 30 years to get

something done on the border.  Now he‘s trying to say it‘s Obama‘s fault? 

I‘ve got a lot to say about that coming up in just a moment. 

The fight over immigration could energize the Democratic base in

November by hook or crook.  Who knows?  I‘ll ask former DNC chair Howard

Dean all about that. 

And President Obama hits the road in the heartland as a Washington

newspaper says he‘s dissing white guys?  That story is coming up at the

bottom of the hour. 

But, of course, the story that has me fired up to start things off

tonight is about the two senators in Arizona.

You know, there‘s an old saying that leadership is all about results. 

Well, when it comes to protecting our border and enforcing the laws of the

land, I think Arizona Senators John McCain and Jon Kyl have shown zero—I

say zero—leadership. 

These two Republicans have allowed illegal immigration to simply get

out of control in their own back yards.  And now they have Arizona‘s

problem setting the agenda, the entire national agenda with the Democrats -

oh, gosh, we got to fix this now. 

McCain‘s got the nerve to act like this new law is no big deal. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA:  Many view this as a civil rights

issue.  There‘s no intention whatsoever to violate anyone‘s civil rights. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  McCain doesn‘t seem to care that people in his own state

will get stopped because of the color of their skin?  Give me a break.  He

just wants to push the immigration crisis right off on President Obama. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN:  If you don‘t like the bill, the legislation that the

legislature passed and the governor signed in Arizona, then carry out the

federal responsibilities which are to secure the border. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  McCain and Kyl have left the border wide open.  Once again,

it‘s up to the president of the United States, Barack Obama, to clean up

another Republican mess.  “Mr. Country First” tried to play it this way to

his strength -- 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN:  This is a national security issue.  This is a national

security issue where the United States of America has an unsecured border

between Arizona and Mexico which has led to violence. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  And who‘s been the senator down there since 1982?  That‘s

how long John McCain has been in Washington. 

Folks, that‘s a long time.  And what has been his issue?  Well, his

issue has been national security. 

During the 2008 campaign, McCain, the warmonger, said that, you know,

he could take care of Iran.  Hell, he can‘t even take care and protect his

own home state.

Both of these senators have no problem whatsoever of vilifying the

Democrats at every turn.  What they ought to do is take a look at their own

back yards and ask themselves just what kind of job they‘ve done keeping

Arizona safe. 

Now, I‘ll compare it.  Knowing these two guys from where I come from,

I know that if Senators Byron Dorgan and Kent Conrad had millions of

illegal Canadians steaming across the border to North Dakota, well, I think

that they probably would have done something about it, especially if it

started back in 1982.  I think that McCain and Kyl, they are getting

absolutely a free pass when they have caused this country insurmountable

problems and damage to our economy. 

This is another classic example of Republican ineptitude, in my

opinion.  The conservatives—the conservatives have created this crisis

with their absolute lust for cheap labor.  They attack unions all the time

every chance they get.  They give big companies tax breaks to ship American

jobs overseas.

And at the same time, they just never seem to get enough people around

them to come up with a reasonable solution to our immigration crisis in

this country.  Their race to the bottom line mentality has led us right

into another international crisis, but now it‘s on our own soil. 

Mexican President—and figure this one out—President Felipe

Calderon, he has warned relations with Arizona would suffer.  And his

country would use all means at its disposal to defend its people?  What the

heck does that mean? 

He says the Arizona law “opens the door to intolerance, hate,

discrimination and abuse in law enforcement.”  I agree. 

Some Mexican lawmakers are calling for a boycott against Arizona. 

Members of our own Congress are now calling for the same and asking people

not to vacation in the state of Arizona. 

How‘s that working out for you, McCain and Kyl?  You proud of that? 

The lack of intestinal fortitude in Washington to deal with this

nightmare has to end.  And McCain and Kyl, they need to denounce this un-

American law and work across the aisle for once in their life to save

Arizona and America, because the conservatives say this is going to bring

us down. 

I‘m just incensed that here‘s a guy who ran for president in 2008,

vilified the Democrats, said we were weak on security, yet you look in his

own back yard of Arizona and he‘s been there since 1982 in the Congress,

and he has the worst state in the union when it comes to illegal

immigration and defending the laws.  I‘m glad this guy didn‘t get elected

president.  He can‘t even run his own state. 

Or, wait a minute, it‘s really not his fault because he‘s a U.S. 

senator.  John McCain, he just—you know, he‘s a big war hero and he‘s a

guy who‘s been around, has a lot of friends in Washington.  Oh, he‘s the

maverick.  He doesn‘t bear any responsibility for what‘s going on in

Arizona. 

Tell me what you think, folks, in our telephone survey tonight.  The

number to dial is 1-877-ED-MSNBC. 

My question tonight is: Do you believe Arizona‘s anti-immigration law

is racist?  Press 1 for yes, press 2 for no.  And I‘ll bring you the

results later on in the show. 

Joining me now is Illinois Congressman Luis Gutierrez.  He‘s the

chairman of the Hispanic Caucus Immigration Task Force.  He calls this

immigration law a civil rights catastrophe, but he‘s also gone so far as to

suggest a boycott. 

Congressman, good to have you with us tonight. 

REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS:  Thank you for allowing me be with

you this evening. 

SCHULTZ:  I think every elected official has got to take care of their

constituents in their own back yard.  Are you appalled at all, are you just

grossed out that John McCain stands up on the Senate floor and says now

this is Barack Obama‘s fault? 

What do you think? 

GUTIERREZ:  You know, Ed, when Senator Kennedy was with us, he and

John McCain, I and Congressman Flake, we introduced comprehensive

immigration reform.  It was known as the Flake/Gutierrez bill in the House

and McCain/Kennedy.  Maybe we‘ve forgotten that, comprehensive immigration

reform. 

That‘s not the John McCain of today.  We have the John McCain of today

who is now blaming the president, when he has walked away from the very

legislation that he introduced, and we fought over and argued over right

here in this building in the Senate. 

Look, secondly, his friend, Lindsey Graham, last week Lindsey Graham

was chastising the president of the United States, saying you‘ve got to do

more, Mr. President, to get comprehensive immigration reform.  So what

happens?  The senators here and Speaker Pelosi decide that they‘re going to

put immigration reform ahead of—ahead of energy policy reform, and the

president starts calling up Republicans and asking them to join the fight. 

And all of a sudden, Lindsey Graham says, whoa, whoa, whoa, I want energy

reform first. 

Look, all we need—I‘ll tell you what, comprehensive immigration

reform?  We‘ll take the big load.  Ninety percent of the votes in the

Senate, 90 percent of the votes in the House will come from the Democratic

Party. 

We just need 10 percent of the Republicans to come and work, and we

can get comprehensive immigration reform.  But stop stalling it.  Stop

saying one thing one day, stop proposing legislation that I and others in a

bipartisan fashion endorse and rallied with you.  And then now that Senator

Kennedy‘s no longer here with us, you walk away from the very legislation

that you proposed. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCHULTZ:  I think you make a very profound point, Congressman. 

There‘s no doubt about that. 

I want to ask you about this boycott.  Do you support an economic

boycott of Arizona? 

GUTIERREZ:  Listen, I‘m going to tell you something.  If I‘m invited

to a convention in Arizona, I‘m not coming.  If I‘m invited to a golf

outing in Arizona, I‘m just not going.  If I‘m invited to a football game,

I‘m not going.  There isn‘t an activity in Arizona that I feel I can

participate in and contribute to the economic growth of—and pay taxes

and pay hotel rooms and tell them it‘s OK.

SCHULTZ:  Do you think Americans should vacation in Arizona? 

GUTIERREZ:  Let me put it to you this way, Ed.  The last state in the

union to ratify as a national holiday Martin Luther King Day was Arizona. 

You know how they got it done?  When they began boycotting economically the

Super Bowl and other kinds of institutions. 

Look, we don‘t want poor Arizonans to hurt.  They‘re going to do

commerce and industry among themselves. 

SCHULTZ:  Yes.

GUTIERREZ:  But I think we‘re going to say no when there‘s a

convention.  So, if I‘m in a labor union at a convention, if it‘s the

NAACP, if it‘s the Mexican-American Legal Defense Fund, if it‘s any

organization worth their salt, they can‘t have their convention and get

their people together in Arizona while other people are being discriminated

against.  It‘s just wrong. 

SCHULTZ:  Yes.

I want you to respond to this.  This is Governor Jan Brewer.  She says

it‘s not racial profiling.  Here it is. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JAN BREWER ®, ARIZONA:  I want you all to know that racial

profiling is illegal, that the law, Senate Bill 1070, mirrors the federal

laws and regulations.  But we are going to be very diligent and we‘re going

to make absolutely sure that that law, Senate Bill 1070, will be

implemented properly and respectfully.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  Do you believe that, Congressman?

GUTIERREZ:  No.  The very fact that she has to make a statement that

the law will not discriminate already tells us that the likelihood that it

is going to discriminate. 

Look, the police should interact with me based on my conduct, based on

my behavior, not the color of my skin, not my country of origin. 

SCHULTZ:  Well, that‘s the whole thing.  What constitutes the stop? 

That‘s the whole thing.  What constitutes the stop?

GUTIERREZ:  But look, I was there at a wonderful rally.  So before we

went to the rally, I know I‘m in Arizona.  I‘m with a group of people and

we‘re doing a radio interview. 

And we‘re eating bagels.  We‘re eating bagels, lox, early in Phoenix. 

I know, Latinos in Phoenix on Sunday eating bagels—that‘s what we were

doing.

And I‘m going to tell you something, Ed.  When the police officer came

in, all dressed in black, with “Police” written, with his gun, I‘m going to

tell you, I‘m a member of Congress for nine terms.  It had a chilling

effect on me.

I started wondering, how does he view me?  How does he see me? 

You see the division that it‘s already caused between the population

in General?  And you want to you something?  I want to tell you something. 

I‘m a big supporter. 

They say, oh, Democrats, liberal, progressives.  No, we‘re supporters

of the police.  We want to give the police every tool and every instrument

that they need to be successful in combating crime and keeping us safe. 

But you want to know something?  The eyes, the ears of the American

people, those are the best tools the police have.  And if people don‘t have

trust and confidence, they‘re not going to cooperate. 

SCHULTZ:  Congressman, great to have you with us tonight.  I love your

passion on this story. 

GUTIERREZ:  Thank you.

SCHULTZ:  And we‘re going to stay on it.  I appreciate it so much.

GUTIERREZ:  Thank you, Ed. 

SCHULTZ:  Let me bring in Democratic strategist Steve McMahon. 

Where is the political windfall in all of this, if there is one?  And

everything, as you well know, Steve, better than anybody, everything in

Washington is political.  Where‘s the windfall on this, if there is one? 

STEVE MCMAHON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST:  Well, for John McCain, he‘s

hoping that the windfall comes in his primary against J.D. Hayworth, a

guest on your show from last night.  J.D. Hayworth, of course, is running

to his right and threatening John McCain.  And we all know what happens

when John McCain feels the heat. 

When he ran for president and people pointed out that it was the

McCain/Kennedy immigration reform bill, John McCain ran away from the bill

at this time.  This is not a maverick.  This is somebody who‘s worried

about his political future and who is doing everything he can to protect

his political hide. 

SCHULTZ:  Does this drive the Latino vote, the minority vote in

Arizona, right into the Democratic camp, no questions asked? 

MCMAHON:  Absolutely.  Not just in Arizona, but I think this is

beginning to brand the Republican Party nationally, because you don‘t hear

outrage from Republican leaders in Washington or in any other part of the

country. 

In fact, to the degree that you hear anything, you hear supportive

comments for Governor Brewer and supportive comments from John McCain.  So,

I think this is a political catastrophe for the Republican Party in

Arizona, and also for Republicans nationally. 

A lot of the states that turned from red to blue in 2008 for Barack

Obama were turned because Hispanic voters did not vote for the Republican

nominee, John McCain, in the same numbers that they had voted for George

Bush.  That gap is going to continue to grow, and with the demographics of

the United States of America and the Hispanic population growing, it‘s a

big problem for Republicans. 

SCHULTZ:  And finally, Steve, talk of a boycott.  I mean, I‘m not into

that.  And I don‘t think a lot of Americans are into that.  That‘s going to

hurt a lot of workers.

But you heard the congressman.  There‘s passion on their side.  They

want this wrong corrected. 

What do you think? 

MCMAHON:  Well, I mean, I think that there are passions on the side of

people who want to boycott.  I think the responsible thing to do is to give

the state of Arizona time to recognize its folly.

You know, it took them a little while to recognize Martin Luther

King‘s birthday, but ultimately the state did the right thing.  It was as a

result of an economic boycott, but I think that should be the last resort

and maybe not the first. 

SCHULTZ:  Steve McMahon, great to have you with us tonight. 

Appreciate your time so much. 

MCMAHON:  Thank you.

SCHULTZ:  Coming up, I guess the folks over at “The Washington

Examiner” find “The Drugster” inspiring.  Now they‘re accusing the

president of leaving white people behind? 

And “The Beckster” has finally gotten tired of sucking up to W.  I‘ll

give you something to stick on the chalkboard.  He lands right in the

“Zone” in a moment. 

All that, plus a Republican county chair wants to send Congresswoman

Betty Sutton back to the kitchen?  We‘re going to slow roast him in the

“Playbook.”  That‘s coming up. 

You‘re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.  Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ:  Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.  And thanks for watching

tonight. 

The Mine Safety and Health Administration just announced it conducted

surprise raids on three mines run by Massey Energy, the company in charge

of the West Virginia mine where 29 workers were killed in an explosion just

weeks ago.  The raids resulted in multiple citations for serious safety

violations.  Massey Energy responded by immediately firing several miners

and their supervisors. 

Meanwhile, on Capitol Hill, the Senate is trying to figure out how to

prevent disasters like the one earlier this month.  In a committee hearing

today, United Mine Workers president Cecil Roberts laid the blame for the

tragedy squarely on the shoulders of Massey Energy. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CECIL ROBERTS, PRESIDENT, UNITED MINE WORKERS:  These miners who work

at Massey are scared to death.  They‘re intimidated.  This company is run

like it was 1921, not like its‘ the present day. 

My opposition is, when you talk about criminal prosecution here, now

is the time.  Because the people who knew that this was going on, there‘s

no question in my mind that the people at the very top here and the board

of directors knew that this mine was in this kind of shape.  How is it that

a company can be allowed in this day and age to put people in this kind of

a position? 

This is not the worst mine they have.  This is the fourth worst mine

they have.  There‘s three others in worse shape than this one. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  And of course we should mention there were no

representatives from Massey Energy at the hearing today. 

For more, let me bring in Daniel Kane of the United Mine Workers of

America. 

Mr. Kane, good to have you on tonight. 

DANIEL KANE, UNITED MINE WORKERS OF AMERICA:  Thanks, Ed.  It‘s good

to be here. 

SCHULTZ:  Well, what are your expectations of having testimony like

this in front of the Senate?  What‘s going to come out of this? 

KANE:  Well, I think what we have to do is raise the level of

discussion on this beyond just the idea of passing new laws.  We have to

ensure in this country that miners are able to refuse to perform unsafe

work and they‘re able to protest unsafe conditions without retaliation. 

That doesn‘t happen in non-union mines. 

Those miners know that if they refuse to do something unsafe, they

will be singled out and they‘ll be fired.  And if they protest too loudly

about unsafe conditions, they will be singled out and they‘ll be fired. 

And if there‘s any retribution, it won‘t come for years. 

SCHULTZ:  OK. 

KANE:  The second thing that has to happen is if anywhere else in

society, if we perform an illegal act, and that results in someone‘s death,

we‘re going to go to jail.  The penalty for killing someone in this country

should not be a fine, and there should not be blanket immunity once you

become a corporate CEO or member of the board of directors. 

SCHULTZ:  Well, as it stands right now, as I understand it—correct

me if I‘m wrong—there is no mechanism in place for any oversight

official to step in and say you‘re shutting this mine down until you fix

this safety issue that we‘ve brought to light. 

What about that? 

KANE:  Well, MSHA can write closure orders.  They can.

SCHULTZ:  Well, why haven‘t they? 

KANE:  Well, the company have gotten around this pattern of violations

that MSHA can write on by contesting virtually almost every citation. 

They‘ve created this huge backlog for the federal review commission. 

SCHULTZ:  So the inspector goes in there, basically, written in the

law, but with really no on-site authority to shut down operations if they

see flagrant violations. 

KANE:  Well, they can if they see flagrant violations.  But the

problem is the inspector can‘t be there 24/7.  He can have things right

while he‘s there, and they‘ll put on a good show for the inspector.  But

the minute he leaves, the boss says you tear the canvass down and get in

there and mine that coal. 

SCHULTZ:  OK. 

This is an exchange today at the hearing between Sherrod Brown and a

gentleman asking—well, you hear it.  Here‘s Joe Main.  Here it is. 

KANE:  Sure. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO:  Are union mines safer than non-union

mines? 

JOE MAIN, MSHA DIRECTOR:  You know, mines where the mine operator

allow their workers to have a voice in safety and freely exercise that, I

think are safer mines. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  OK.  If they are safer mines, why wasn‘t this a union shop? 

And did Massey fight against any kind of organization in the past? 

KANE:  Absolutely.  In fact, that‘s the other big problem that we have

in mine safety.  It‘s the way the labor laws are enforced in this country. 

It is illegal to threaten workers during an organizing drive.  The

companies do it all the time. 

I like to liken it towards a bank robbery.  Imagine, if you will, that

someone‘s caught coming out of the bank, and they just robbed it, and the

penalty was they had to give the money back and write a letter that they‘d

never do it again.  It wouldn‘t be safe to go in a bank in this country. 

That‘s the way the labor laws are enforced in organizing drives. 

SCHULTZ:  Yes.  And Mr. Kane, there are 29 families tonight that don‘t

have a loved one with them.  If the Congress doesn‘t move on this, if the

industry doesn‘t move on this now, when are they going to do it? 

KANE:  I don‘t know what it‘s going to take.  And unfortunately, the

number is not 29.  Now it‘s 30.  There was miner at that mine who was

severely injured, who was hanging on, who has since passed away, and we

mourn that very much. 

I don‘t know what it‘s going to take, but we need a reawakening in

this country.  Workers need to be empowered.  People need to have a voice

on the job.

SCHULTZ:  Mr. Kane, good to have you with us tonight.  Thanks so much. 

KANE:  Thank you.

SCHULTZ:  And to our viewers, we will stay on this story.  It doesn‘t

get any worse than this in the workforce of America.  If we can‘t stand up

for these workers, what are we about as Americans? 

Coming up, you can call George W. Bush a lot of things, but a

progressive is not one of them.  OK?  We‘ll throw “The Beckster” in the

“Zone” next.  He deserves it. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ:  And in “Psycho Talk” tonight, the best.  Things aren‘t

looking too good for W‘s legacy, but even “Beckster,” who used to praise

the former president, now no longer wants to claim Bush as a fellow right-

winger. 

On his radio show yesterday, Beck tried to pass him of as a

progressive. 

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

GLENN BECK, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  I think he‘s done exactly what

George Bush was doing except to the times of a thousand.  I mean, we‘re

talking about a progressive, and George Bush was a progressive.  It‘s a

difference between a steam train and the space shuttle. 

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  Sure, if by that you mean President Obama is looking ahead

to the future, while George W. Bush is stuck in the 1800s.  If Bush was a

progressive, he didn‘t do a very good job did he?  Huh?  I mean, he didn‘t

do a very good job at keeping it a secret as well. 

It‘s not progressive to only help out your buddies in the top two

percent.  It‘s not progressive to push a constitutional amendment to

restrict who can get married.  And it‘s definitely not progressive to throw

away trillions of dollars just to settle old scores with Saddam Hussein. 

Bush may not have been conservative enough for Glenn Beck, but to say

that he was a progressive, well, that is “Psycho Talk.”  

Speaking of “Psycho Talkers,” a rabid righty in Ohio wants to put his

congresswoman back in the kitchen where she belongs?  He sizzles his way

right into the “Playbook.”

Plus, the only South Carolinian more nuttier than Governor Mark

Sanford is the number two dude down there.  That‘s Andre Bauer.  He blames

lazy Americans for this immigration crisis we have.  I‘ll get rapid

response on our panel on that one. 

And President Obama is in Iowa today trying to plant some more hope in

the heartland.  Senator Jeff Merkley will bring us the straight talk on

jobs in just a moment.

You‘re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.  Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  When you get up in the

heartland and you talk to folks, there‘s a lot to learn from rural America. 

Because it‘s towns like this that give America its heartbeat. 

We have gone through a tough time.  And I know we‘ve gone through a

tough time here in Ottumwa (ph).  Even though our economy is growing again,

even though our markets have rebounded, our businesses are beginning to

create jobs again and hire again—that‘s all good news, but everybody

here knows there‘s a lot of recovery that we still have to do. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.  Right now, President Obama is

holding a town hall meeting in Indian Hills Community College in southeast

Iowa.  Iowa is the first stop of the president‘s swing through the

Heartland.  He‘ll be in Missouri and also Illinois tomorrow.  He says the

job market is improving and employers are hiring again.  But he admitted

that it‘s not happening as fast as he‘d like. 

For more, let me bring in Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley.  Senator, good

to have you on tonight. 

SEN. JEFF MERKLEY (D), OREGON:  Hey, Ed.  It‘s great to be with you. 

SCHULTZ:  You bet.  You agree with Vice President Joe Biden, who says

we‘re going do be adding several hundred thousand jobs in the coming

months? 

MERKLEY:  You know, I‘m concerned about the pace of the recovery.  I

think it‘s a long, difficult recession.  We‘re going to have a lot of

commercial lending that‘s in trouble.  We have a lot of homeowners still in

trouble.  So I‘m perhaps not quite as confident.  That‘s why I think it‘s

so important we are doing a jobs bill here on Capitol Hill. 

SCHULTZ:  OK.  So what do you want the president to do?  He‘s

obviously going out trying to motivate the troops, keep people‘s confidence

up.  Any president has to play that role. 

MERKLEY:  Absolutely. 

SCHULTZ:  And have that duty.  What do we have to do? 

MERKLEY:  Let me just give you an example.  One of the bills I‘ve been

advocating for is energy retrofits for buildings.  This type of bill does a

number of things.  It says we‘ll do low-cost loans and rebates.  One bill

is called Home Star.  One focuses on commercial building, called Building

Star.  It puts people to work, replacement windows, insulation.  It saves

on monthly energy bills.  In fact, the cost of the low-cost lending would

be paid back through the—

SCHULTZ:  Low-cost money through who, senator?  Through the Small

Businesses Administration or through direct government loans? 

MERKLEY:  Actually, a big piece of it goes through existing

enterprises in states that are working so we can activate a network very

quickly.  But there would also be a direct federal access for places that

don‘t have that local network in place yet.  And then there would also be

rebates.  So it‘s three components. 

And the key to this—the key to this is nothing else will create as

many jobs as quickly and it‘s a gift that keeps giving back.  Those monthly

savings on energy, it‘s good for our foreign policy, good for national

security. 

SCHULTZ:  You‘re going to have to go reconciliation on that as well. 

Republicans just aren‘t going to help you on anything.  Again, on financial

reform, you just get the debate going, the vote was 57-41.  Here‘s the

president talking about that. 

MERKLEY:  Yes. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA:  Today, for the second time in 24 hours, Senate Republicans

unanimously blocked efforts to even begin debating reform.  I‘m not even

asking them to vote for the bill.  I just want to let them debate it.  And

you know you‘ve learned these Senate rules are complicated.  So they won‘t

even let it get on the floor to be debated. 

It‘s one thing to oppose reform, but to oppose just even talking about

reform in front of the American people and having a legitimate debate,

that‘s not right. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  Senator Merkley, it‘s reform on Wall Street, financial

reform.  It‘s the stimulus package.  It‘s the jobs package.  It‘s

unemployment benefits.  You name it.  Again, I don‘t mean to make you the

whipping post.  When are the Democrats going to wake up and realize you get

no help from them whatsoever? 

MERKLEY:  Let me tell you, it is particularly outrageous that the

Republicans have voted twice in the last two days to say they want closed-

room conversations, that they are afraid to put their proposals before the

American people in public, on the floor of the Senate, and hold votes on

it.  I think anything that‘s done that they are saying we are afraid to

show the public, isn‘t going to be good for the public. 

SCHULTZ:  Well, I tell you what, I don‘t know how many times you got

to get punched in the face as a party before you figure out they don‘t want

to work with you.  Senator, good to have you with us.  I know you‘re

fighting the good fight. 

MERKLEY:  Good to be with you, Ed.  We‘re going to win this fight. 

SCHULTZ:  I hope so.  The American people need it. 

Now, let‘s get some rapid-fire response on these stories.  South

Carolina‘s lieutenant governor says a lazy workforce is to blame for the

nation‘s immigration problems? 

The DC-based “Washington Examiner” takes a page from the Drugster‘s

playbook with this headline: “Obama Disses White Guys.”

And senators from both parties got after Goldman Sachs executives

today at a grilling session on Capitol Hill.  I think it was a lot of hot

air, myself.  I‘ll tell you about that in a moment.  Right now, we are

joined by Joan Walsh, editor and chief of Salon.com, and also Heidi Harris,

radio talk show host out of Las Vegas. 

All right, let‘s talk about illegal immigration first.  Joan, is it

lazy people?  Is that what it‘s all about?  Americans that are here just

don‘t want to take these jobs? 

JOAN WALSH, SALON.COM:  You know, it‘s got to be hard for a

conservative like Andre Bauer, Ed, because he‘s trying to decide whether he

wants to bash black people or Latinos first and the most.  You know, South

Carolina has a tragically high unemployment rate.  It‘s got a tragically

high black unemployment rate.  So to insinuate that people won‘t look for

jobs, won‘t take jobs when it‘s really the economy that‘s failing these

people, is ridiculous. 

However, it might be a step up from when Bauer called people on aid

animals.  I‘m trying to look at the bright side. 

SCHULTZ:  Here is the lieutenant governor on immigration.  Here it is. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDRE BAUER, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA:  South Carolina

passed one of the toughest immigration laws in the United States.  However,

we aren‘t addressing the real problem.  The real problem is a workforce. 

If you don‘t have a workforce, people that are peach farmers, people that

are in the hotel business, people that are in the construction business,

they are going to go somewhere to find someone to fill those jobs. 

Why do we have so many vacancies?  The problem is we have a giveaway

system in this country and in this state that is so strong that people

would rather sit home and do nothing than do this job.  Laziness is not a

disability.  There are people that actually are needy, but there are a lot

of people that are flat-out lazy and they are using up the goods and

services we have in this state. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  Heidi, what‘s your response? 

HEIDI HARRIS, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST:  I think he‘s right.  I got to

tell you, Ed, when I was in high school, I was working the drive through

window, making a couple bucks an hour.  Now a lot of kids act like they

should leave high school and become CEOs.  They don‘t really want to work. 

I agree with him.  I hate to say it.  They‘d rather play their video games

all day long and be coddled and spoiled. 

He‘s right about the fact there is a lot of laziness among kids in

America. 

WALSH:  I want to talk about one kid from South Carolina, Heidi.  Do

you remember that young woman who was the star of President Obama‘s State

of the Union a couple years ago, Tatioma Bethia (ph)?  She goes to school

in a crumbling school in South Carolina, in what is called the “Corridor of

Shame.”  That‘s what South Carolina does to its black people and its poor

people. 

So don‘t talk to me about laziness.  They have been treated horribly. 

They didn‘t have your high school experience, Heidi, God bless you. 

HARRIS:  Wait a minute, what‘s that got to do with black people?  I

wasn‘t mentioning black people. 

WALSH:  We all know what our friend is talking about. 

HARRIS:  I don‘t know what he‘s talking about.  You asked me about the

laziness.  I think there are a lot of kids in America, a lot of white kids,

who want to sit around and play their video games and don‘t want to work. 

SCHULTZ:  Heidi, we‘re talking about workers here now.  When he says

construction workers—construction workers are out of work because there

are people from another country that are coming here working cheaper, and

obviously we have some employers in this country who don‘t want to pay a

living wage, and they‘re going to go to the cheap labor. 

HARRIS:  Right. 

SCHULTZ:  That‘s not being lazy at all.  Let‘s get to the next

subject.  The “Washington Examiner,” Heidi, says that President Obama is

dissing white guys.  What does this mean? 

HARRIS:  Well, what it means is the video where he talks about

appealing to Latinos and African-Americans and women, he leaves white guys

out.  I guess he left out Asian guys, too.  Yes, it‘s ridiculous. 

But remember, Obama is the guy who called his own grandmother a

typical white person.  If I said that, if I called anybody a typical black

person, if you did, I‘d be off the air.  Obama said that kind of stuff

before.  So I guess he doesn‘t want white men or Asian men, but everyone

else he wants.  It‘s insulting. 

SCHULTZ:  Joan, what do you make of that headline?

WALSH:  I think that‘s just ridiculous.  It‘s a complete distortion of

what he said.  Young people include white men.  Women include white women. 

There are white people in Obama‘s coalition.  You know, Ed, I‘m getting

really tired of the right wing turning around this racist charge.  The

reason he‘s appealing to blacks and Latinos is because they gravitated

toward the Democratic party because it wants to end discrimination.  It‘s

not a racial appeal based on racial solidarity.  White people are not in

the—down.  They‘re not down in this society. 

For Rush Limbaugh to go around whining, one of the wealthiest media

people to go around whining that it‘s time—it‘s tough for a white guy

out there‘s, it‘s just ridiculous. 

SCHULTZ:  Heidi, what did you think about the hearings today on

Capitol Hill?  Is the Senate going to get anything going and get some

regulation reform on the heels of some of the testimony from the Goldman

people? 

HARRIS:  You know what, I have to tell you, it‘s a dog and pony show,

both sides, really.  Does anybody believe that no matter how much

regulation they put on Wall Street, that they‘re not still going to find

ways to cover their butts and rip us off?  Let‘s be honest, no matter what,

that‘s going to still happen.  That‘s human nature. 

Put these people in jail, put them in handcuffs, and then we‘ll talk

about reform. 

SCHULTZ:  I have to agree with you on that.  I think it‘s a dog and

pony show.  I done think we‘re going to get regulation out of this.  I

think this is just an opportunity for these senators to get up there and

get some hot audio going and get hot under the collar so they can go home

and make a 30-second or 60-second commercial saying, senator so-and-so

fighting for you against Wall Street. 

HARRIS:  Absolutely. 

SCHULTZ:  That‘s how I feel about it.  Joan, what do you think? 

WALSH:  On this one I, disagree with you, Ed.  I think we‘re going to

get reform.  I hope it‘s going to be tough enough.  What I see is a lot of

Republican senators up there posturing.  Susan Collins asked great

questions this morning.  She was wonderful.  Then they go and they vote not

to have a debate on this bill in the Senate. 

So they are the ones trying to have it both ways.  I was really—Ted

Kauffman was awesome today. 

SCHULTZ:  They‘re all—Joan, let‘s show you how awesome they are. 

They‘re pontificating like crazy.  Here it is. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN:  Boy, that timber wolf was one

(EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal. 

Should Goldman Sachs be trying to sell (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal? 

Can you answer that one?  Can you answer that one? 

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS ®, MAINE:  Did the firm expect you to act in the

best interests of your clients? 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Clients are very important and we‘re very

important.  And so—

COLLINS:  Could I—I‘m starting to share the chairman‘s frustration

already and I‘m only 30 seconds into my time. 

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL (D), MISSOURI:  We‘re trying to hone in on why

I‘ve got so many unemployed people in my state and why so many people I

work for in Missouri have lost incredible amounts of money in their

pensions. 

You had less oversight than a pit boss in Las Vegas. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ:  Joan, what do you think? 

WALSH:  You know, Ed I think you‘re being too tough on the Democrats. 

You and I shared frustration over the public option and a lot of stuff that

went on in the health care reform bill.  But I really think they‘re trying

to get something done.  And think it‘s the Republicans standing in the way. 

However, in the end, I think a few of them are going to come over, because

the polling data shows that this is a popular issue for Americans. 

I‘m with Heidi.  I like to see some people in handcuffs, too, don‘t

get me wrong.  I think we‘re going to eventually get some legislation. 

SCHULTZ:  We‘ll see.  Maybe law enforcement will do something about

it, but it just seems to me that the nature of the Democrats right now is

that they‘re great when they‘re in a room by themselves, but as soon as a

Republican walks in, they all start shaking.  We can‘t get anything done. 

We‘re afraid. 

WALSH:  We‘ll see. 

SCHULTZ:  I mean, that‘s—I think there‘s a bunch of pontificating

going on.  I don‘t think we‘re going to get anything done on that.  I hope

I‘m wrong.  I want to be wrong on this.  Heidi and Joan, great to have you

with us tonight.  Thanks so much.

Coming up, Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour may want to stop

whistling Dixie.  A massive oil slick, bigger than the size of Delaware, is

headed for his shores.           That‘s next in the Playbook.  Stay with

us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ:  In my Playbook tonight, the huge oil spill in the Gulf of

Mexico caused by last week‘s deadly explosion on a drilling rig could hit

land as soon as Saturday.  The 80-mile-long oil slick is now about 36 miles

away from Louisiana.  High winds are making it difficult to pinpoint where

it will make landfall.  So the Coast Guard is preparing to protect five

possible areas that could be affected in Florida, Louisiana, Alabama, and

Mississippi. 

So far, efforts to contain the spill have not been successful.  Crude

oil is still spilling into the Gulf at a rate of about 1,000 barrels a day. 

If the oil slick does reach land, it could create an environmental disaster

along the Gulf Coast. 

Joining me now is Walter Hang, an anti-drilling activist and the

president of Toxics Targeting, a database firm that specializes in tracking

and mapping environmental hazards like oil spills.  Mr. Hang, good to have

you with us tonight.  How serious is this spill? 

WALTER HANG, TOXICS TARGETING:  It‘s an incredible catastrophe.  It‘s

a massive uncontrolled release.  It‘s about 42,000 gallons a day.  They

have no idea how they‘re going to stop it.  It‘s, again, covered an area

about the size of Maryland.  And it‘s just a matter of time before we find

out what the impact is.  We have no idea whether it will hit land, where it

will hit land.  It‘s an unbelievable problem. 

SCHULTZ:  OK.  Now, you say they have no idea on how they‘re going to

shut it off.  What does that mean?  I mean, does that mean they‘re winging

it right now on what they‘re going to do? 

HANG:  Well, they have ideas, right.  But they said that they would

never have this kind of problem.  The rig caught on fire.  It blew up.  It

sank.  And now there‘s a huge uncontrolled release of this oil.  So they‘re

trying to shut off the oil, but they don‘t really know how to do that and

they failed so far. 

The device that was supposed to shut off the well in the event of

catastrophe didn‘t work.  So really they‘re really stuck, and we have no

idea how this oil is going to be controlled. 

SCHULTZ:  Do you think that the Obama administration should rethink

its strategy?  Because they have opened up the regions to offshore drilling

on the East Coast.  For instance, you can go just off the coast coming up

here in a few years, all along the Eastern seaboard.  Should they rethink

that?  What do you think? 

HANG:  Absolutely.  The problem that we‘ve now experienced shows why

we‘ve had a ban on offshore drilling for most of these areas for nearly 30

years.  And when the president proposed to re-open 167 million acres to

drilling what he failed to do was to say how he was going to prevent these

problems from occurring.  The assumption was that the existing regulatory

authorities would be able to prevent these problems, and that couldn‘t be

clearer that they can‘t do it. 

SCHULTZ:  Give us perspective, Mr. Hang.  Would this potentially be as

bad as the Exxon Valdez? 

HANG:  It depends on whether or not they can stop the oil from gushing

from the bottom of the Gulf of Mexico.  They‘re saying maybe they‘ll have

to drill some relief wells to try to capture the oil.  That could take

months.  What happens if it doesn‘t work?  If they can‘t stop this oil from

gushing into the water, over the course of time it could be bigger than the

Exxon Valdez. 

What this shows is that our administration really wants to drill,

drill, drill.  They want natural gas.  They want oil.  But they have no way

to prevent these problems.  And when the problems occur, they‘re powerless

to really clean up the problems.  That‘s how come they really need to

rethink this whole approach. 

SCHULTZ:  We will visit with you again on this if it is as bad as you

say it is.  Seems to be a real problem.  Thank you for your time tonight. 

HANG:  Thank you. 

SCHULTZ:  One final page in my Playbook tonight, it seems like the

Republican party of Ohio can‘t seem to move out of the 1950s.  Madina

County GOP Chair Bill Heck (ph) sent out a mailer recently taking aim at

Congresswoman Betty Sutton.  The mailer goes after Sutton in this way,

saying, quote, “let‘s take Betty Sutton out of the house and put her back

in the kitchen.” 

Such forward thinking, isn‘t it?  Well, Bill, good luck with that one. 

I‘m pretty sure the Republican party is going to have serious problems

taking back the House with guys like you acting like Archie Bunker. 

Coming up, the immigration battle couldn‘t be hotter.  This is a huge

chance for the Democrats to lock in their majorities in Washington.  The

man behind the brilliant 50-state strategy, Dr. Howard Dean, is up next to

talk about, is there a windfall?   That‘s next on THE ED SHOW. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ:  Welcome back.  Finally tonight, talking about the Democrats,

they didn‘t plan it this way, but an ugly immigration fight could be just

what the Democrats need for the midterms.  They didn‘t start it.  The

Arizona Republicans did.  It has energized the Latino community, which

could change the game in the Western states, including Nevada, where Senate

Majority Leader Harry Reid is fighting for his political light. 

For more on the landscape of all of this, let‘s go to former DNC Chair

Governor Howard Dean.  Governor Dean, good to have you with us tonight. 

The Democrats didn‘t plan to move immigration reform to the forefront, but

because of what has happened in Arizona, they‘re going to do it.  What‘s

the political windfall here?  Are the Republicans just driving the minority

voters right into the Democratic camp? 

HOWARD DEAN, FMR. GOVERNOR OF VERMONT:  That‘s pretty much it.  The

50-state strategy, which you kindly talked about in the introduction, was

really not just about geography.  It was about reaching out to all kinds of

people who hadn‘t necessarily voted for us before.  Hispanics were a very

good group of that. 

What I think people don‘t understand is that what the Senate did in

the immigration debate in 2008 just absolutely pushed the entire Hispanic

community toward us.  You can‘t attack immigrants without everybody knowing

that that‘s a code word for Hispanic immigrants, which makes even people

like Cuban-Americans, who get the best immigration deal in the country,

furious, because you‘re attacking a particular ethnic group. 

I think this is nothing but trouble for Arizona.  I remember when the

Arizonans wouldn‘t recognize Martin Luther King.  I can predict to you

right now that Major League Baseball will never play an All-Star game in

Arizona as long as this law is in place.  Think of this league.  The league

has got to be, I don‘t know, 35, 40 percent Hispanic, something like that. 

They‘re just not going to play there. 

SCHULTZ:  Governor, how do the Democrats approach immigration reform,

if they want the Latino and Hispanic votes on their side? 

DEAN:  Interestingly enough, I think we ought to do what‘s been pretty

bipartisan.  George Bush had a decent immigration plan.  But the right wing

of the Republican party killed it.  Barack Obama has a decent immigration

plan.  Ronald Reagan had a decent immigration plan.  The right wing of the

Republican party, which controls the Republican party, has a different way

of doing things.  What they do is they rouse people‘s fears, hate and anger

and try to get them to the polls.  They‘ve been doing it for 30 years.  I

think that‘s strategy is about to end.  I don‘t think it‘s going to work. 

SCHULTZ:  They say no to everything.  Do you think they‘d filibuster

immigration reform? 

DEAN:  Not only do I think they‘d filibuster, I don‘t think there‘s

any chance they‘re going to bring it up.  I really don‘t.  The kind of

rhetoric that you hear, how about the guy from South Carolina, the

lieutenant governor who basically said people are lazy—he wasn‘t aiming

at Hispanics, but we know who he was aiming at.  There‘s a lot of stuff

that these old guard people in the country, who wish it was the 1950s,

play.  You just can‘t do that. 

SCHULTZ:  Howard Dean, is this an issue that could turn it around for

Harry Reid, quickly, in Nevada? 

DEAN:  Absolutely yes.  We chose Nevada to be one of the early primary

states because they had a very good ethnic mix that looks like the rest of

the country.  Hispanics play a big role in Nevada politics.  I think it

will a difference in his race.  I think it will make a big difference in

the races in Arizona, Gabby Gifford race, and other places like that. 

SCHULTZ:  You‘re the man that came up with the 50-state strategy. 

I‘ll always credit you for that.  Great to have you with us, Howard.  Thank

you.

Tonight in our telephone survey, I asked you, do you believe Arizona‘s

anti-immigration law is racist?  Seventy two percent of you said yes; 28

percent said no. 

That‘s THE ED SHOW.  I‘m Ed Schultz.  We‘ll be back tomorrow night. 

“HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews is next, right here on the place for

politics, MSNBC.  You can find out more about my radio show at WeGotEd.com. 

We‘ll see you tomorrow night. 

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY

BE UPDATED.

END   

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