MATTHEWS:
candidate
Rick Barber
of
Alabama
came out with an ad earlier this month that got a lot of buzz. The spot begins partway through an imagined meeting with founding father
Sam Adams
,
Benjamin Franklin
, and
George Washington
.
RICK BARBER (R), ALABAMA CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE:
And I
would impeach him. And if that`s not enough, some of you men own taverns.
Sam
, you are a brewer, Mr. President, a distiller. You know how tough it is to run a
small business
without the tyrannical
government
on your back. Today, we have an
Internal Revenue Service
that enforces what they call a
progressive income tax
. Now, this same
IRS
is going to force us to buy health insurance, cram it down our throats, or else. Now, I took an oath to defend that with my life. I can`t stand by while these evils are perpetrated. You gentleman revolted over a tea tax A tea tax! Now look at us.
Are you with me
?
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR:
Gather your armies.
MATTHEWS:
Mr.
Barber
, that`s quite an ad. Let me ask you, what -- the -- the first part struck me is, "I would impeach him." Well, who would you impeach and for what? Which president?
BARBER:
It`s not necessarily meant for a president. We would have said president if that`s who we intended It`s a metaphor to the fact that we don`t seem to want to hold our leaders accountable. We have got leaders that are doing illegal acts, that are not representing the people. And we don`t seem to want to use the tools that are there -- impeachment is one of them -- to hold them accountable.
MATTHEWS:
Well, they have committed illegal acts. What are they? Which presidents committed illegal acts?
BARBER:
Well, you`ve got...
MATTHEWS:
We have had the
progressive income tax
since
1913
. Have all the presidents since then been committing illegal acts?
BARBER:
Again, you just look back over the years, there are several who have been caught for
tax fraud
,
tax evasion
. You`ve got the potential offering of Democratic candidates not to run in replacement for possible high-level offices. There`s a lot of stuff out there. And if anything of it is found to be true, we should hold those people accountable, absolutely.
MATTHEWS:
Well, sure. I want to go through what your ad says. You stand by the ad, of course?
BARBER:
Absolutely.
MATTHEWS:
OK. Let`s talk about the
progressive income tax
. Would you like to replace it?
BARBER:
Absolutely. I would love to replace it with the
fair tax
.
MATTHEWS:
And you would like to get rid of the 16th
Amendment to the Constitution
, which created it back in
1913
, get rid of the whole thing?
BARBER:
Absolutely. I think it`s -- it`s counterproductive to our economy.
MATTHEWS:
OK. Sure. You want to get rid of the
income tax
, period, not just the
progressive income tax
, but any kind of
direct tax
,
income tax
, is that right, and go to an
indirect tax
, some sort of
ad valorem
,
VAT
kind of tax? That`s what you want to do?
BARBER:
I think the science is there, the data is there to show that a consumption-based tax is far more productive for a society and far more fair.
MATTHEWS:
OK. OK. We get rid of the
income tax
, period. What interests -- or, rather, what
sales tax
rate on top -- here in
D.C.
we pay 8 percent. What would you add to that for -- as a national
sales tax
? What percentage of sales?
BARBER:
No, you wouldn`t be adding any tax. The
fair tax
is a replacement for all the embedded tax that`s estimated to be in the products and goods and services that we have already because of our current
income tax
.
MATTHEWS:
We have
sales taxes
all around the country, sir. In addition to the current
sales tax
we have in other
states
-- you can`t stop
states
from having
sales taxes
, so in addition to the
sales tax
, you would have a national
sales tax
, right?
BARBER:
Correct.
MATTHEWS:
OK. What rate?
BARBER:
It wouldn`t be in addition. It would be replacing the product and service. It would be a replacement of the
taxes
that are already there. And you can`t -- the local locations would have to take care of their own tax.
MATTHEWS:
You would get rid of the
sales tax
in localities?
BARBER:
You would get rid of
Social Security
, capital gains.
MATTHEWS:
No, no, no.
BARBER:
You would get rid of
Medicare and Medicaid
. You would get rid of the
death tax
.
MATTHEWS:
Would you answer the question? What do you do about
sales taxes
in
states
like
Pennsylvania
,
Washington
,
D.C.
? All across the country,
states
have
sales taxes
. Would you get rid of those? And how can you do that constitutionally, denying the right of
states
to pay for their expenses? How would you do that legally or constitutionally?
BARBER:
You wouldn`t -- you wouldn`t necessarily do that. The
states
would have to choose in what way they want to tax on their own. That`s their sovereign right.
MATTHEWS:
Well, they have. They have sales -- OK.
BARBER:
But I think they would follow the national standard.
MATTHEWS:
Right. Everybody listening knows what`s going on here. You`re not answering the question. You want a national
sales tax
. What rate of taxation do you want in that
sales tax
?
BARBER:
The estimated tax that`s already embedded in the goods is 23 percent. You would get rid of the embedded tax, replace it with the
fair tax
, and the
states
would then have to choose how they want to tax beyond that.
MATTHEWS:
Well, in the
states
that I live in, it`s about 8 percent. So we`re add 23 percent. So we would have a 31 percent
sales tax
. What would you apply that to? Food, clothing?
BARBER:
Well, you keep saying add. You would not -- again, you would not be adding a tax,
Chris
. You`re putting words in my mouth.
BARBER:
There`s an embedded tax in every product and service that we buy today.
MATTHEWS:
OK. What about the local
sales taxes
? Would you get rid of those when you create the national
sales tax
?
BARBER:
No. You could not. The
states
and
local communities
would have to choose whether they wanted to remain on a state sales or
income tax
or move to a
sales tax
. That would be up to them to follow whichever path they want to do locally.
MATTHEWS:
So, what would --
BARBER:
-- you set the example at the national level.
MATTHEWS:
Right. You set the example by having a national
sales tax
and you think that`s going to discourage
states
and localities from having
sales taxes
? It`s going to duplicate it?
BARBER:
No, absolutely not. But I`ll tell you, there`s a lot of them that would shift away from an
income tax
and they move to a consumption-based tax as well and --
MATTHEWS:
But we already have those
sales taxes
.
MATTHEWS:
Sir, you are advocating a national
sales tax
on top of local
taxes
and everybody knows it.
Let me ask you about this thing:
you say the
government
can increase
taxes
today without representation. Don`t you have a congressman? Don`t you have a
U.S. senator
? Don`t you have representation as a citizen?
BARBER:
What we have and I think is universally agreed on at this point in time, and we`re going to see the result of which in November is that we have misrepresentation, which is almost as bad as no representation. Our leaders today are not representing the views of the people.
MATTHEWS:
OK.
BARBER:
And you`re going to see them pay that price in November when the elections come around.
MATTHEWS:
So, we don`t have a representative form of
government
?
BARBER:
No, we absolutely do.
MATTHEWS:
Well, you just said without representation they can -- you`re saying the people can raise
taxes
without being people elected as representatives of the people, and that people who raise the
taxes
are the ones that have been elected as representatives of the people, including your
Congress
people who represent you. Why do you keep saying this
government
is a tyranny?
BARBER:
Chris
, you need to look at the forest through -- look at the forest through the trees.
MATTHEWS:
Well, I`m looking at your ad.
BARBER:
The ad is a 60-second spot.
MATTHEWS:
You`re talking about a
George Washington
character, talking about gathering an army against our own self-elected
government
, not the
British government
, not a foreign tyranny, but our own elected
government
.
BARBER:
No, sir. No, sir.
MATTHEWS:
Yes. Look --
BARBER:
You`re putting those words in my ad. It says gather the army and the army we`re referring to --
MATTHEWS:
Against whom?
BARBER:
Gather our political army.
MATTHEWS:
Oh, political army. You didn`t say that.
BARBER:
Absolutely.
MATTHEWS:
He`s wearing a military uniform and says gather your armies and you`re saying that`s a metaphor.
BARBER:
Chris
, do you know who a metaphor is? Do you know what hyperbole is?
MATTHEWS:
Well, it sounds like everything in your ad -- are you a metaphor for a guy running for office? Or are you a real candidate? If you`re a metaphor, I understand what you`re talking about.
BARBER:
No.
MATTHEWS:
You`re talking we have a
government
that doesn`t represent us. We have a
government
that`s a tyranny. We have a
progressive income tax
you wanted to replace --
BARBER:
That`s true.
MATTHEWS:
-- with that
sales tax
. And you won`t deny the right of
states
to continue having their own
sales taxes
, which add up to 31 percent
sales tax
.
And I
don`t think anybody is going to vote for a 31 percent
sales tax
, sir, or a 23 percent
sales tax
.
BARBER:
Well, again,
Chris
, that`s your ignorance with what I`m saying, because again, it`s not an addition.
MATTHEWS:
OK. Repeat it so I won`t be ignorant. Repeat it, sir. Anybody who wants to look at this tape, can catch it -- 23 percent, you said, and I`m saying, people are now paying 8 percent in many
states
and localities. That adds up to 31, and you don`t like the arithmetic, but that`s a fact -- isn`t it?
BARBER:
Yes. Your arithmetic is bad. You`re not listening to what I`m saying. Yes.
MATTHEWS:
OK. Tell me again what rate of taxation --
BARBER:
Again, it`s a replacement for --
MATTHEWS:
-- do you recommend for the national
sales tax
, the
fair tax
, as you call? What rate?
BARBER:
It`s not the rate. It`s not the rate,
Chris
. It`s not the rate. It`s the fact you`re saying we`re going to add that. We`re not. We`re going to replace what`s already there embedded that you don`t see every day in your cost of goods with the replacement tax that`s seen on the receipt now and that`s where a lot of folks like to sling mud and misrepresent the
fair tax
.
MATTHEWS:
And what rate will that be? And what rate will be and what will be the rate of taxation on the
fair tax
?
BARBER:
Again, it`s estimated to be 23 percent.
MATTHEWS:
OK. Now, if I get --
BARBER:
But it`s not added on to the price.
MATTHEWS:
No, it`s not added on -- it`s not added on to the national
income tax
.
BARBER:
That`s right.
MATTHEWS:
But it is added on to all local
taxes
, right, sir, so we get on the same page here, right?
BARBER:
No, sir.
MATTHEWS:
No, it`s not added on.
BARBER:
Here`s an example. You`ve got a
Coke
--
Coke
today costs a dollar. Today, you pay a dollar. In that dollar is already 23 percent of
taxes
that we don`t see. The difference is now that
Coke
is going to cost 77 cents, but you`re going to see 23 percent of tax on top of that 77 cents to still yield a $1
Coke
and then you add your 8 percent
sales tax
locally on that. There`s your correct analogy.
MATTHEWS:
OK. Let me tell you what happens
in the real world
. We have a state tax, we have a federal tax if you apply one. That`s 23
plus 8
. That`s 31 percent. It`s a cruel world. Arithmetic matters.
Thank you for coming
on. Have you ever been
audited
?
BARBER:
The
fair tax
has more research that --
MATTHEWS:
Have you been
audited
?
BARBER:
Have I been
audited
?
MATTHEWS:
Yes.
BARBER:
My business has been
audited
, absolutely.
MATTHEWS:
Why?
What have you done
to cause to be
audited
?
BARBER:
I didn`t say I didn`t anything to cause that. I said it`s a tool that came to use and has been used in the past.
MATTHEWS:
Why were you personally
audited
, your business?
BARBER:
I`m sorry?
MATTHEWS:
Why were you
audited
?
BARBER:
I`ve had
local government
audit my business.
MATTHEWS:
But why?
BARBER:
I`m assuming they wanted to verify everything was correct.
MATTHEWS:
What was wrong with your paperwork?
BARBER:
Nothing was wrong with the paperwork. We actually had some of the best paperwork they`d seen for our industry.
MATTHEWS:
But why were you
audited
? You know, they never figured out why you were
audited
?
BARBER:
All right. You`re splitting hairs here again.
MATTHEWS:
No, I`m asking an
open question
.
BARBER:
-- conversation to talk about the intrusive part of the
government
.
MATTHEWS:
No, in your ad, you go after what you call "malicious audits"
and I
figured you must have had some experience to use language like that.
BARBER:
That`s right.
MATTHEWS:
So, you`ve been
audited
. How many times have you been
audited
?
BARBER:
Have you not heard about during the mortgage crisis, when banks were told take the money or they`re going to be put -- they`re going to be subject to audit, which are costly and time-consuming
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