Video: Battle for Tahrir Square rages through the night

Open in new window

2. Transcript of: Battle for Tahrir Square rages through the night

   Advertise

   RON ALLEN, NBC NEWS (voice-over): supporters of President Mubarak . They , blaming the foreign media for not telling their side of the story. "The president should never step down," one of them screamed. We turned off our camera and fled.

   MADDOW: NBC 's Ron Allen reporting from Alexandria today. Reporters on the ground in Egypt found themselves under attack today. Joining us now live from Cairo is NBC chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel . Richard joins us now by a somewhat dodgy satellite connection. But, Richard , we can see you. What can you tell us you're seeing and hearing right now in Cairo ?

   ENGEL: You can hear much more gunfire going on right now. There's a developing situation . The protesters who've been calling on President Mubarak to step down who are in the center of Tahrir Square appear to be winning if not have won this incredible standoff here. And as the pro- Mubarak supporters are leaving, and we've been watching them run away from the scene. They have retreated back to positions and have been firing, some firing in the air; some firing apparently toward the crowd of protesters. They are -- they were chased as one stage by the protesters. But if you look down here, there is a large bridge. The 6th of October Bridge , and you can see people running across it. These people who are running are generally pro- Mubarak supporters. They were covering that bridge, but it was several thousand of them just a few minutes ago. They have all just run in this direction. Some retreating back and that gunfire which are now mixed with fireworks that you can hear has been the result of that. This, for the protesters, is the moment that they have been waiting for, the moment they have been fighting for all day, Rachel .

   MADDOW: This is live imagery that you are seeing right now from Cairo . This is not on tape. This has not happened earlier. Richard , as you are looking at the scene right now, when you say it looks like the anti- Mubarak protesters have won, tactically, how are they winning -- by greater numbers, by the tactics that they're using? How is this fight actually playing out?

   ENGEL: Now, as you can see people running now, making a counter attack, a counter charge. The bridge has been the high ground in this. And we're really talking about old fashioned battle tactics here. The pro- Mubarak supporters were lined up on this elevated highway. And they were taking this position and then throwing down Molotov cocktails into the crowd. Now, originally, the pro- Mubarak protesters were in much greater numbers and they had squeezed all of the demonstrators who want Mubarak to step down deep into Tahrir Square . At one stage, the demonstrators were even completely surrounded with all of the exits and entrances to Tahrir Square blocked off. Slowly, over the last several hours, the protesters are then pushing out, moving their barricades further and further to where we are broadcasting right now.

   And just in the last few minutes, they crossed a threshold and got evidently too close and the pro- Mubarak supporters on this bridge pulled out and are now once again running away from the scene. As we're watching this, as we were talking, is not being filmed by the camera, a man who was hit by a Molotov cocktail , he fell to the ground. He was on fire. Other supporters managed to put him out. This situation clearly is not over. But it may have turned a corner, at least for the night. The pro- Mubarak supporters will likely get more reinforcement and they also seem to be very angry that they were forced to pull back, which is why I think, Rachel , we're hearing so much gunfire right now.

   MADDOW: Richard , in terms of that gunfire , it sounds, at least from here, like automatic weapons fire. Are we at a situation here where this battle is between professionals versus amateurs where we got actual security forces acting as the pro- Mubarak side and it's civilians who are acting as the anti- Mubarak side? Is that too simple?

   ENGEL: The pro- Mubarak supporters, as has been widely reported, we were just talking about are believed to be thugs, gangs of orchestrated group that was gathered together by the government to break up these protests. Some of them would be from the police forces . Others would not be. They wouldn't necessarily have a high degree of military training . They would just like a rent-a-mob. And it appears that some of them were clearly armed and as they pull back from this demonstration, they are using their weapon. The protesters don't seem to be scattering at this stage. So, it would be premature to say that the demonstrators are firing into the crowds. We're not seeing bodies and people dropping. But there was a lot of gunfire as these pro- Mubarak supporters were forced back to take a more -- an even more defensive position .

   MADDOW: Richard , are you able to see tanks or any other sign of the military being involved, getting in between these two sides, or having any role in this battle ?

   ENGEL: That is something we've been watching closely. We're just looking over my shoulder , there is a tank here. It has not moved. It has not turned its turret. In fact, some of the pro- Mubarak demonstrators were running behind it and appeared to be taking position behind it to fire in the direction of the protesters. The tanks are not moving between the protesters. I think you can see a tank right now. I stand corrected. It has now just turned on its engine. This could be another -- yet another turning point if that tank moves to change the situation . It is just turning on the engine now. It is not moving. But you could see people running in the direction of the tank, running for shelter, running for safety, trying to leave this area. The protesters, however, are still back behind the Egyptian museum . And you can see the main building here in the center of Tahrir Square in front of us is t he Egyptian Museum . There have been many fires over the course of the day that have been set right by it. The museum now appears to be the main blocking point that could be saving a lot of lives because most of the gunfire we've been hearing has been from one side from the museum, of the museum, by the retreating pro-government demonstrators, while the targets apparently, the protesters, are on the backside of the museum.

   MADDOW: Richard , as you know, the whole world is watching. And the rest of the worlds is trying to figure out at this time whether or not this is protesters versus protesters. Whether or not this constitutes state violence against their own citizens. I don't want to ask you to report beyond what you can tell. But you've been in a lot of war zones. Can you tell what type of weaponry is being fired? Are these -- is this the kind of weaponry that would be in civilian hands? Is this large caliber stuff that would be military grade or police grade stuff? Can you tell from tactics who is who?

   ENGEL: The weapons are fairly common. They appear to be -- and this tank is creating a smoke screen to get people cover as it heads toward a different position . I'm not sure if they are going to go all the way into Tahrir Square . But it does seem to be taking up a position to prevent what is a rapidly escalating situation . It could be doing what we all seem to be one of the more responsible things right now, which would be to create a barrier, albeit one of smoke between the demonstrators and protesters. That is what, in fact, is going on, creating this line of smoke in order to allow people to escape, allow people to have some cover. This would be the first action we've seen all day of the army to try and intervene and prevent Egyptians from attacking other Egyptians. As this situation unveils -- develops and involves much, much more gunfire than we've seen really throughout the course of the entire day.

   MADDOW: Richard , are there other tanks nearby? Is this tank on its own?

   ENGEL: There are other tanks. For now, this tank, which clearly is setting some sort of smokescreen, is the only one that seems to be moving right now. There does not appear to be a coordinated military action . And the tank has now passed the Tahrir Square . So, it is not going in. It just seems to have helped to allow the people who are the pro- Mubarak demonstrators to retreat and exit the area. To look down on the bridge now through the smoke , there is nobody down there. That area was full with just as we were talking, it was emptying out with people who are throwing Molotov cocktails at the protesters retreated and there was this. It may have been the exchange of fire. I think would be unfair to say that only the pro- Mubarak demonstrators who are firing into Tahrir . I don't know if there are some armed people in Tahrir Square among the protesters as well.

   MADDOW: In terms of what the tank just did, Richard , can you smell -- does the smoke have a chemical smell or does it seem like it just something that was put up as a visible smoke screen ? I'm wondering if it's some sort of tear gas or crowd control .

   ENGEL: No, no, it's not tear gas . This is the kind of smoke -- military used it all the time. It can be of any color. You pop smoke in order to do what they just did, soldiers sometimes will carry small canisters of smoke on their uniform in order to leave an area, they'll pop smoke , drop it, create a cover and leave and it doesn't .

   MADDOW: What's that -- what's that we're hearing?

   ENGEL: That appears to be more gunfire . As this situation is scattering now, the protesters are staying concentrated right in the middle. Initially, we were hearing gunfire to the west, and the Nile is to my west. And that's where the initial gunfire was. As we saw that tank started out, now, we're hearing much more gunfire in a position where I cannot see because the building is in the way, but to the east, deeper into Cairo , away from the Nile . And we are hearing similar kinds of things, gunfire as the -- from the positions where the pro- Mubarak supporters pulled back apparently in retreat.

   MADDOW: Richard , in terms of Tahrir Square and what's going in that actual sort of plaza right now, are there still a lot of people there staying out overnight? Are there still wounded people in the square ? What's the scene there? What we're seeing right now is happening around the square . But what's happening inside there?

   ENGEL: Well, I can tell you what's happening right now because we are high up as you can tell from the perspective here. I can hear clearly they are shouting, "Erhal, Erhal." That has been the chant of this demonstration so far. It means "Leave, leave." And it is a message, a word that is directly directed only at one person, President Mubarak . It is their victory cry right now. They have been shouting this all day. But, now, as this situation happened, and the people who attacked them earlier have left and once again resorting to that battle cry , that cheer, " Erhal ," "Leave, leave, President Mubarak , leave."

   MADDOW: We can't hear the exact words that we're using, but we can hear how loud it is. It makes me feel like, despite the hour there, despite being the middle of the night and a predawn hours, there's a huge number of people there. Are people not going home ?

   ENGEL: They don't seem to be -- they don't seem to be going home . They have -- they are afraid if they go home and leave, they won't be able to come back. They have been working in shifts according to organizers that we've spoken to. So, people who now that they have a little bit more freedom of moving, people who are in the center would take somewhat of a break, get a little food, get a little water and then come back and replace. They are organizing themselves. They have been here now for many hours and have been able to develop something of a sustainable pattern. Many of the protests say they will stay in the morning. They also are concerned that perhaps in the next few hours, perhaps the next few minutes, they think when sunrise comes, the government supporters will come back once again.

   MADDOW: Richard , from what you saw with that tank, everybody is wondering what's going to happen with the military. Whether they are going to stay in a sort of relatively passive position , passive but visible position they have been in, or whether they will actually intervene actively to stop when violence breaks out. Do you feel differently about that than you did earlier today, keeping in mind that you're hearing a lot of gunfire right now?

   ENGEL: Well, if this continues, the army will have no choice but to intervene. This, the army could accept open gun battles in the main square in Cairo . Molotov cocktails , the army was obviously in a very difficult position .

   And they were shouting or were shouting. We could hear soldiers on appealing to both sides to stop. They were saying, for the sake of Egypt , stop this. Go home. We don't need this. Egypt is better than this.

   So, the army has been making these verbal appeals all day. This was the first physical intervention that we've seen sending the smokescreen right through to the center . If these gun battles continue, the crack of high velocity rifles. These are automatic rifles that are being fired. Semi automatic rifle , to the rifles, I know the sound very well. If this continues with military grade weapons happening, firing at the center of Cairo for much longer, the army will absolutely have no choice but to intervene.

   MADDOW: Richard , just to be clear what you are experiencing right now, is there any indication that the anti- Mubarak forces, the anti- government forces, are shooting back, or that they are also armed with guns?

   ENGEL: I don't think I'm in a position to answer that. We have heard crackling of gunfire . It appears to be coming from the west and from the northeast. These are areas that have been taken over by supporters of President Mubarak . We have the supporters where they went in retreat. If there are -- I don't know who is firing the weapons and whether they are protesters who are also firing. But logic would dictate the gunfire is coming from the areas where the pro- Mubarak supporters have been concentrating.

   MADDOW: OK. Richard , let me also just ask you -- in terms of your job as a reporter right now, has it changed in the last 24 hours ? Have you been targeted? And what do you think that's all about?

   ENGEL: I think we've definitely been targeted. There was a clear order today by whoever sent this organized group of demonstrators a mob, a group of thugs, however you want to describe them. The people who came out in the streets en masse, at the same time, with the same objective, which is to break up the protest in the center of Tahrir . They were very angry with reporters and were looking for us. They were hunting down reporters, and we were swarmed every foreign journalist was swarmed almost simultaneously. It happened just around 2:00. And journalists who weren't able to retreat back into their hotels well, some of them had very bad experiences. There are reporters are still missing tonight. There was a reporter was stabbed today. There was a reporter was detained for a long period of time. So this was clearly not just popular anger against journalists. Many cameras were taken. Cameras were smashed. There was a message, "If you see a reporter with a camera, either harass them, take his camera. Don't let them film."

   MADDOW: Richard , let me we are going to let you get to a safer position or better position if you need to. But I just want to in summing up what you have seen in this sort of battle in Tahrir Square tonight with this tank intervening in a way we have not seen, what do you think this means for the overall of the protests and what seems to be a revolution?

   ENGEL: I think it means right now that we are in a stage of conflict here. And if this escalates and continues when more reinforcements from the pro- Mubarak camp arrive, it is no longer Molotov cocktails which can kill. And it is no longer shouts and stones, but can mean gunfire in the center of Tahrir . I think things will escalate quickly and dramatically. There will be full intervention. There will be too much pressure on the army not to allow this country to disintegrate even further.

   MADDOW: Richard Engel , NBC chief foreign correspondent, reporting tonight remarkably from just above this battle of Tahrir Square which doesn't sound over, although it seems to have taken a dramatic turn. Richard , stay in touch with us and we'll see you soon.

   ENGEL: They are cheering now, the army. So I think people here did appreciate what the army did. And they are appearing they're saying the army and the people, hand-in-hand. And that is also a common theme that we heard really from both sides of this protest. They don't want the army's image to be sullied by this. I think a lot of people would like the army to step in and stop this.

   MADDOW: Given that we have just seen the army step in, in the first way that we have seen, we are going to try to get some official U.S. Government response to what we just broadcast. Richard , thank you. We'll see you soon. You're watching live coverage on MSNBC . What you just saw was not tape. It happened live as we were talking with Richard in Cairo . We will be right back.

   Show transcript