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Guests: Graeme Wood, Brian Hartman, David Corn, David Brock, Barbara
Walters, Zach Wahls, Terry Wahls, Jackie Wahls
LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL, HOST: At this moment, Egyptian state television is showing video of flowers, while journalists‘ lives are being threatened and Nick Kristof of “The New York Times” says, “I worry about what it is they‘re planning that they don‘t want us to see.”
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(MUSIC)
RICHARD ENGEL, NBC NEWS: They were hunting down reporters. And we were swarmed—
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People who are angry at journalists—
HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: We condemn in the strongest terms attacks on reporters covering the ongoing situation in Egypt.
O‘DONNELL (voice-over): The secretary of state delivers the strongest condemnation yet of violence in Egypt and the attacks on journalists.
ENGEL: Almost simultaneously, it happened just around—around 2:00.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Foreign journalists say they have been attacked by armed men.
ENGEL: Some of them had very bad experiences.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS: I‘m using a flashlight to put just enough light on my face.
ENGEL: This was clearly not just popular anger against journalists. There was a message, don‘t—if you see a reporter with a camera, either harass him, take his camera, don‘t let him film. There are reporters who are still missing tonight.
WILLIAMS: Probably best to stay up here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s a very dangerous environment for anyone out there, and especially a foreign journalist.
O‘DONNELL: Protesters give President Mubarak until tomorrow to leave.
The White House is watching and worrying.
ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC NEWS: The first challenge for the United States and its allies is to get Mubarak to give up power.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The line that the White House and administration officials have been walking.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We pray that the violence in Egypt will end and that the rights and aspirations of the Egyptian people will be realized.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That line has veered farther and farther toward the demonstrators‘ side.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It‘s not for us to choose leaders of countries.
O‘DONNELL: And Beck, Hannity, Gingrich, and Limbaugh use the violence to keep spreading fear.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, “HARDBALL” HOST: Will he chainsaw his rabbit?
GLENN BECK, FOX NEWS: That is the seat right here of power of a global evil empire.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: They want the Islamic caliphate.
NEWT GINGRICH ®, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: I think it‘s very frightening to watch this administration.
HANNITY: You believe in chopping off people‘s—
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO HOST: Egyptian army is rounding up foreign journalists. This is supposed to make us feel what exactly? Happy?
ERIC BOLLING, FBN: Are you scared? I‘m scared.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O‘DONNELL: Good evening from New York. I‘m Lawrence O‘Donnell.
We are just hours away from what protesters in Egypt promise will be a mass march to the presidential palace of Hosni Mubarak. Organizers are calling it the “day of departure,” in the hope that President Mubarak will leave.
In an interview with ABC News today inside his fortified palace with his son in the room, Mubarak said he‘s fed up with being president and would like to leave office now but cannot for fear that the country would sink into chaos.
In the non-chaos that President Mubarak believes the country is now enjoying, according to his own health ministry‘s official totals, 13 people have been killed and 1,200 have been injured since yesterday.
Now, we‘d like to show you pictures live from Egypt, where their time is now just after 3:00 a.m., but none of the major broadcasters are able to provide those pictures tonight after Egyptian security seized cameras and other equipment in the crackdown on journalists.
So far, there have been at least 43 incidents where journalists have been threatened, attacked, or detained, which provoked this response from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLINTON: It is unacceptable under any circumstances. There is a clear responsibility by the Egyptian government, including the army, to protect those threatened and to hold accountable those responsible for these attacks. The Egyptian government must demonstrate its willingness to ensure journalists‘ ability to report on these events to the people of Egypt and to the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Joining me now by phone, two journalists who were targets of these new crackdowns today—contributing editor to “The Atlantic,” Graeme Wood, and ABC News producer, Brian Hartman.
Graeme, I know you don‘t want to reveal exactly where you are. It‘s unsafe for any of you to do that. But could you tell us what is now happening where you are?
GRAEME WOOD, THE ATLANTIC (via telephone): Right now, I‘m in a fairly secure place actually. They‘re saying that the most secure place for foreign journalists might actually be, oddly enough, Tahrir Square, since that‘s where most of them are concentrated, and so, there‘s some safety in numbers.
If you are out in the suburbs, though, which is where I am right now, then there‘s not a whole lot of people watching you. So, anything could happen.
O‘DONNELL: Brian, you arrived at a checkpoint today where things got scary very fast. Tell us what happened there.
BRIAN HARTMAN, ABC NEWS PRODUCER (via telephone): Sure. Well, you know, I‘ve only been here a few days, and in that time we‘ve been through dozens and dozens of these makeshift checkpoints. You pull up, and the first time you do it you pull up to an intersection and there‘s a bunch of guys in civilian clothes. They walk up to the car with rusty swords and bike chains and pipes and sticks.
And, you know, the first time you see you this, you think, my God, these guys are, you know, going to go medieval on us. They come up to the car and they check your ID, they pop the trunk, and then they‘re very friendly. And they say, oh, I‘m very sorry, sir, enjoy Cairo, enjoy your stay. Welcome. Thank you very much. We‘re very sorry for these security precautions.
You know, these people are worried about their homes. They‘re worried about their businesses. And they‘re worried about this unrest somehow threatening them and their families and their livelihoods.
So, that‘s what we thought we were encountering. So, today, we were just on a run from the airport picking up some gear. We come on one—we come upon one of these checkpoints. And it worked very differently.
I‘m in a two-vehicle convoy. Our drivers were pulled out of the car.
The people at the checkpoint then got behind the wheel of the vehicles.
They drove them over a bridge.
And then they directed their vehicles down into this sort of a cul-de-sac, this dirty, you know, blocked-in area, where there was a very, you know, crowd of dozens of angry men waiting for us down there. And the car was surrounded and, you know, it was quite terrifying.
O‘DONNELL: Graeme, what did it feel like when they got in the car and started to drive that car away?
HARTMAN: Well, it was—at first, you know, everyone‘s speaking Arabic, and I speak pidgin Arabic from the time, you know, I‘ve spent in the Middle East. But I wasn‘t at first clear what was going on. And it wasn‘t until we started driving into this crowd and the people started surrounding our car and I realized that there was no way out of this area where they were bringing us, that something was wrong. And me and my, you know, teammates looked at each other and thought, this is not good.
O‘DONNELL: And how did you get out of that jam?
HARTMAN: Well, you know, the situation started to escalate. And you know, things got very, very angry. There was a large banner, Hosni Mubarak banner hanging over this whole thing, which tells you that these are people who are upset about the media coverage, which is why they were so angry with us.
But the situation started to get more and more tense. They became more and more angry at us. They became—when they learned we were journalists, they started screaming.
They were making gestures, putting their fingers, cutting their throats. There was a policeman, a man in a police uniform who said that by God, he was going to cut our throats, cut off our heads.
But then sort of at the heat—the highest point of the heat, my camera man, who has spent 30 years in war zones and he‘s just a brilliant man, he appealed to the sensibility that—I have not spent a great deal of time here, but what little time I have spent and what I have—the people I‘ve spoken to, the Egyptian people are very friendly, they‘re very generous. And when they‘re not so caught up in these politics and throwing stones at one another and trying to kill one another because they‘re angry about this, they‘re good, generous, proud people, and he appealed to that.
And he just—he reached out for a man, a silver-haired man who looked like an elder, and he gave him a big bear hug and kissed him on both cheeks, and he pointed at me and he said, “This man is a guest. He‘s my guest. He‘s your guest.” He said, “The Egyptian people are better than this.”
He made an appeal to their better natures. And it lowered the temperature just enough for us to be high-tailed out there have. But they were chasing after us on motorcycles and trying to stop us as we were making it out.
But I feel like—I mean, it sounds—hugging this man and kissing him, I believe like it saved our lives.
O‘DONNELL: Wow.
Graeme, you had some rough times there before today. Did you have any checkpoint problems today?
WOOD: I did. I‘ve had much the same type of experience at most of the checkpoints, where I found people actually apologetic after they looked at my papers and decided that I‘m free to go. But occasionally, you get a really rough spot, and that did happen today just before noon.
I got to a checkpoint, and the people there, they were apparently under instructions to look for possible agent provocateurs who were of Iranian or Lebanese or Israeli or Qatari origin. They looked into my passport, and they found an Iranian visa, which they actually mistook to be the information page of my passport. So, I was paraded down the street for some distance with people—they had locked their arms into mine and had grabbed parts of my clothing and were basically dragging me several hundred feet and saying, “We‘ve got one. We‘ve got one. We‘ve got an Iranian.”
O‘DONNELL: Graeme, in news coming in right now, the United States Senate has voted on a resolution to urge President Mubarak to start the transition of power immediately in Egypt. That‘s probably not the kind of thing that‘s going to come to the immediate attention of the protesters, a resolution coming out of the United States Senate.
But what is the feeling there about what the United States can do at this point in terms of pressuring Mubarak?
WOOD: Well, since I‘m not in Tahrir Square, I haven‘t been there for the last 24 hours, I can‘t say what the protesters are thinking about it. But on the periphery, where this kind of vigilante justice is being meted out, they were clearly acting on the suggestion of police or state TV, which is suggesting that there is foreign involvement out there in the protests and basically suspicious of all foreigners. So, if there‘s any change that can happen from that level, then perhaps that suggestion can be muted at the suggestion of the United States.
O‘DONNELL: Brian Hartman with ABC News and Graeme Wood of “The Atlantic”—thank you both for joining us tonight. And stay safe.
WOOD: Thank you.
HARTMAN: Thank you.
O‘DONNELL: For a time today, Rush Limbaugh actually joked about the journalists who came under attack. But that tone changed when someone at his favorite network, FOX News, had been beaten up. Up next, more on Limbaugh and Glenn Beck‘s demented conspiracy theories on the crisis in Egypt.
And in an exclusive tonight, we‘ll have the very first national interview with Zach Wahls, the 19-year-old Iowa man who so eloquently defended his two moms in a speech in the Iowa state house. We‘ll meet Zach and his family ahead on THE LAST WORD.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Kenneth Cole has issued a quick apology after an outrage over this tweet. Quote, “Millions in uproar in Cairo. Rumor is they heard about our new spring collection.”
And next, there‘s fear in the streets in Egypt and non-stop fearmongering in the studios of Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and Rush Limbaugh.
And later, Barbara Walters is in “The Spotlight.” She‘ll tell us about meeting Hosni Mubarak and show us David Letterman as we‘ve never seen him before.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BECK: Wow. Ignorance on display.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Right-wing media usually so sure of where it stands on the major issues of the day, has been struggling to find its take on the unfolding events in Egypt. As reports of journalists being threatened, beaten, and hospitalized by Mubarak supporters streamed in throughout the day, including news that two “New York Times” journalists had been detained, Rush Limbaugh dug deep into himself to explore his feelings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIMBAUGH: How are we supposed to feel? We‘re supposed to feel outrage over it. I don‘t feel any outrage over it.
Are we supposed to feel anger? I don‘t feel any anger over this.
Do we feel happy? Well, do we feel kind of going like “Nah-nah-nah-nah”?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Was he kidding? That‘s always the question with Rush. Is he serious or is he joking? Well, much later in his show he answered that question.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIMBAUGH: Now, we were kidding before about “The New York Times,” of course.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Now, was he kidding about kidding? I mean, was he serious the first time and the joy he seemed to express at reporters being attacked, or did something happen? Something happen that changed his feeling about violence against journalists?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIMBAUGH: According to Mediaite, FOX News Greg Palkot and crew have been severely beaten and are now hospitalized in Cairo. Now, we were kidding before about “The New York Times,” of course. This kind of stuff is terrible. We wouldn‘t wish this kind of thing even on reporters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Because Rush‘s show is three hours long, he has many, many opportunities to rewrite himself in the course of the day when he discovers the idiocy level of things he has said earlier in the show.
Many conservative pundits who criticized President Obama for being a, quote, “creampuff” and “timid” when it came to speaking out on behalf of the protesters in Iran are now, of course, criticizing him for supporting the protesters in Egypt too much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREA TANTAROS, FOX NEWS: Obama‘s in a very tricky, tricky situation now. But he made a very big gaffe by coming out so publicly, asking Mubarak to leave. He can‘t just come out and call for democracy. I think -- I think we saw that. The riots in the street just got worse when he did that. James Madison is not walking the streets of Cairo with a musket.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: And then there‘s the one and only Glenn Beck, who to understand Egypt has turned to the only explanatory device he knows: demented conspiracy theory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BECK: The Muslim Brotherhood. Code Pink seems pretty darn cozy with the Muslim Brotherhood. Can you imagine a terrorist organization—can you imagine if any of us were cozy with Hamas?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: When forced to address the Beck madness, the gang at “FOX & Friends” claimed they didn‘t know anything about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE GOLBERG, AUTHOR: Your own network has been running absolutely, you know, lunatic theories about this being some kind of conspiracy between Van Jones, Code Pink, Hamas, and the Muslim Brotherhood?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven‘t seen any.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven‘t seen any of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: And as usual, the fearless Glenn Beck is not backing down.
Unless you think admitting you might be wrong is sort of backing down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BECK: Don‘t talk to me about crazy conspiracy theories. I want the left to know I plant my flag in this soil. If I‘m wrong, so be it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Joining me now are: David Brock, founder and chairman of “Media Matters,” and David Corn, Washington bureau chief for “Mother Jones.”
David Corn, what is the spectrum of white right-wing reaction that‘s going on out there in the media?
DAVID CORN, MOTHER JONES: Well, I suppose you get some people yelling at the president for not being tough enough on Mubarak and not—you know, falling behind the street. And then you have right-wingers saying that he‘s too tough on Mubarak and he‘s working with radical Islamists to bring across the revolution in Egypt. And then you have Glenn Beck, who‘s literally off the charts. He—you know, listen, there are tens of thousands—
O‘DONNELL: What charts?
CORN: I can‘t even find the chart. You‘re right, Lawrence.
But to be serious, there are hundreds of thousands, millions of Egyptians, turning out into the streets, putting their own lives at risk. Some of them killed in favor of democracy and freedom of expression.
What does he say? He quite literally says on the show this is not about these people, this is not about freedom, this is not about democracy, this is about a conspiracy to have the Muslim Brotherhood take over not just Egypt but all of Europe and threaten the United States while working with leftist groups.
He is cheapening their action and their sacrifice. I mean, it‘s beyond shame. It‘s beyond reason.
O‘DONNELL: David Brock, let‘s listen to something else Glenn Beck said today about you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BECK: For anybody who‘s half listening or if you want to just watch the audio clips on, you know—from “Media Matters,” you go ahead and do that. If your friends want to remain, you know, ignorant, that‘s fine. We‘re not talking about the difference between Republicans and Democrats. We are talking about the end of the Western way of life if we don‘t pay attention.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: David, it‘s the question I have whenever I hear him speak.
What did he just say? What does he mean?
DAVID BROCK, MEDIA MATTERS: Look, he‘s talking about, as David referenced, he‘s trying to weave a conspiracy theory where the U.S. left is in cahoots with the Muslim Brotherhood. He‘s talking about how that can come to your hometown. He‘s playing on fear, playing on paranoia.
And it‘s clear that, you know, as serious an issue as this is, you think that these guys aren‘t to be taken seriously. But the problem is there are people in the audience who do. So when he‘s talking about food riot and the world on fire and the world imploding, there are troubled people out there who could do troubling things in response to this. And it is completely irresponsible broadcasting.
O‘DONNELL: Gentlemen, we have breaking news on the Egyptian front. “The New York Times” is reporting that the Obama administration is discussing with Egyptian officials a proposal for President Hosni Mubarak to resign immediately, turning over power to a transitional government headed by Vice President Omar Suleiman, with the support of the Egyptian military. Administration officials and Arab diplomats have been sourced on this.
David Corn, what do you think that would mean if that discussion is successful and Mubarak resigns immediately, which is to say somewhere in the next 10, 12 hours?
CORN: Well, it‘s been interesting. In the last 24, 36 hours, as the violence has increased in Egypt, you‘ve heard less from the president himself. Robert Gibbs, Hillary Clinton have made statements. A lot of people have thought it was time for the president himself to ratchet up his rhetoric in favor of the protesters and condemning the violence.
Well, if indeed the administration is moving close to this sort of resolution in which Mubarak will be out soon, well, I think they‘ll be judged very well—very positively at the end of that.
Of course, it does—it does lead to a problem. The vice president, you know, still has blood on his hands. You know, he was part of an intelligence service that tortured people. He‘s tied into the military. And I‘m not quite sure if the protesters will accept this as a happy ending. It all depends what political reforms and openings still exist after the guys at the top cut the deal.
O‘DONNELL: David Brock, what do you make of a negotiation that could lead to successfully the removal of Mubarak, but leaving in his place someone who possibly by now is as much an enemy of the protesters as Mubarak?
BROCK: Well, I think as David said—I mean, it‘s a tricky line that has to be walked here. I think up to now, this has not been a major partisan issue despite all the right-wing rhetoric. One thing we do know, though, is that, you know, in the eyes of the right wing, Obama can‘t do anything right. And so, I‘m sure that‘s what we‘ll start to hear tomorrow.
And I think where they‘re going with this is to say that not only the U.S. left, but Obama is in line with the Muslim Brotherhood. And it‘s an implication, as we know, they all think that Obama is a secret Muslim.
O‘DONNELL: David Corn, do you sense that this negotiation, if successful or partially successful in some way, could start to rupture what has been so far a reasonably unified bipartisan response to the crisis in Washington?
CORN: I think the right is—have been exploiting it in terms of the commentators. I think the Republicans have been holding their fire. They‘re looking for something to go wrong before they come out and attack the president more directly.
This deal will, you know, set a path. It may be a positive path. It may lead to chaos. If Mubarak decides not to leave and there‘s open civil war, you know, amongst the elite of Cairo, people will blame the president for having triggered that. So, a lot will depend on how smooth the transition is that results from these talks or the pressure that the White House is applying.
O‘DONNELL: David Brock of “Media Matters” and David Corn of “Mother Jones”—thank you both for joining me tonight.
BROCK: Thanks.
CORN: Sure thing.
O‘DONNELL: Coming up: Barbara Walters puts her vast experience talking to Middle East leaders to use and analyzes what‘s going on in the region for us and also discusses her next primetime special.
And later, the Iowa teen who stood up to Republican lawmakers there to defend his two moms‘ right to marry. Zach Wahls and his family get THE LAST WORD on gay marriage tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Ahead in this hour, in the extraordinary career of Barbara Walters, she says her special, which airs tomorrow nigh is her most important work ever. Barbara Walters gets tonight‘s “Spotlight.”
And later, Donald Rumsfeld tries to rewrite the history of the Iraq war. That earns him tonight‘s “Rewrite.”
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was such a great drama, and I was the star of the drama, and nobody could really hate me because I was also the victim. So I felt like Bette Davis, which has happened before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: That‘s right. There‘s only one person who could get David letterman to talk in such personal terms. In the spotlight tonight, Lifetime Achievement Emmy Award-winning journalist Barbara Walters. Barbara, thank you very much for joining us tonight.
BARBARA WALTERS, LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT EMMY-AWARD WINNING JOURNALIST:
Thank you, Lawrence. If he was Bette Davis, I was Joan Crawford.
O‘DONNELL: Yes. He revealed a lot and this is your special about heart disease and people who have suffered as you have, gone through the surgery. There comes a point where David Letterman starts talking about how he was just in tears. Tell us about that.
WALTERS: Well, let me tell you what this is about. It‘s a special that‘s called “A Matter of Life and Death” because—
O‘DONNELL: ABC 10:00 p.m. tomorrow.
WALTERS: Tomorrow night. Because we feel—I think this is the most important special I ever did and I‘ve done a couple. Because I think this could save your life, especially women, whose symptoms are different than men.
More women die of heart disease than all the cancers put together. More women die than men die of it. Now, what David Letterman was talking about was his open heart surgery, which I had and I talk about. Robin Williams, President Bill Clinton, Charlie Rose, Regis Philbin, we are members of the cracked chest club.
O‘DONNELL: That‘s the name of it.
WALTERS: And all of us went through this and I want people to understand that if they have to do it not—it‘s not the most terrifying thing in the world. But I also want them to know what they can do to prevent it.
O‘DONNELL: Let‘s listen to a few more of your famous patients you that got to open up to you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I realized there was really no alternative. If I wanted to live, I had to do this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They‘re going to put him on a gurney, roll him into the OR room, and bust him open like a lobster!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop the heart, work on it, restart it, good luck, you‘re back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: These people are all so full of vitality. I forget that Robin Williams had that operation. Are these typical recoveries, or are they unusual?
WALTERS: Well, each one is a little different. And by the way, you know, we‘re talking about open heart surgery, and we show it. But if I say that this is also a funny special, because we have Robin Williams and David Letterman and Regis on.
What they had in common—well, what Robin and I had in common was that we had a valve replaced. We have a cow valve. Robin Williams says he gives good milk now. Others had arteries. Some of them had to go in like that.
I had a choice. I could have waited a little bit, and I said to my doctor, can I postpone this?
O‘DONNELL: You have a busy schedule. A lot of things you‘d have to cancel.
WALTERS: It was May. I had stuff to do and he said you can wait. And I said, well, what‘s the down side? He said a small chance of sudden death. I said that‘s no alternative and I went in the next day and announced it on the air.
Nobody knew that I had this condition. They had different reactions. When people have this, they are depressed. David Letterman, whom I‘ve never heard more personal, talks about this turning to tears of joy, that if he had not had this operation he wouldn‘t have had a son.
Bill Clinton says “I wouldn‘t have walked down the aisle.” Each of us has a somewhat different reaction, but we all agree it was necessary. It was not the worst thing in the world although Charlie Rose almost died. He says it was hell.
O‘DONNELL: Well, his happened—
WALTERS: He was in Syria interviewing President Assad and had to be rushed to a Paris hospital and the valve operation didn‘t work, and he was in a coma for like seven days. So even though there‘s only a 2 percent chance of dying, it is serious.
But if you need it, it‘s not the worst thing in the whole world. And that‘s what we want to tell people. We also want to tell them what they can do to prevent it. Have you had an EKG?
O‘DONNELL: I think - yes, but a couple years ago.
WALTERS: Well, you should do it every year.
O‘DONNELL: Every year.
WALTERS: Yes. So they have a baseline.
O‘DONNELL: I‘m paying doctors to tell me this and they‘re not.
WALTERS: But see, you‘ve got to go yourself. It‘s not—especially women because the symptoms are a little different. Women are not just little men and most of the time what women are worried about is cancer. But more women die of heart disease than all the cancers put together and a lot of the doctors say you don‘t really need this after 40 you do.
O‘DONNELL: I‘ve got to get you to Egypt. You‘ve interviewed Hosni Mubarak. Size him up for us. What do you think, as he faces these ultimatums from the protesters to leave, do you think there is any chance that anyone can convince him to leave?
WALTERS: I think he has to leave. The big question for us, and people have talked about this, when the Shah of Iran, who was our ally, left, we dropped him like that. He had no country to go to.
By the way, he‘s buried in Egypt. We have other allies. They may not be the most favorable. A lot of them are dictators, but we can‘t have them feeling that as soon as there‘s protests you‘re going to drop them, boom, boom, but he has to leave.
And then of course the big question and what we all ask is what if this country becomes radicalized? What about the peace treaty between Israel and Egypt? Does that go? Egypt is still the largest Arab country, 80 million people.
And if that becomes radicalized, the entire picture of the Middle East changes. This is very important to us. This is something when people say why should I care, we have to care.
O‘DONNELL: When you interviewed Mubarak‘s predecessor, Anwar Sadat, you said is it true there cannot be war or peace in the Arab world without Egypt? He said to you, “This is a fact. War or peace is decided in Egypt.” Why is that?
WALTERS: Because it is the largest country and because Sadat made peace. You know, for an Arab country to make peace at that time with Menachem Begin, that was huge and for doing it he was assassinated. Mubarak was little known. Mubarak said oh yes, there‘s a vice president, which by the way, Mubarak hasn‘t had.
So he came into office. He has never really run for election. The elections have been fraudulent. He was picked there and he‘s been there ever since. So he‘s never been tested. He‘s never had to face the loyalty of his people until now.
O‘DONNELL: Where do you see it going from here? You‘ve lived through so many of these kinds of news events. You get a certain feel for it as journalist at some point, don‘t you about where the momentum‘s going.
WALTERS: Well, the momentum is going toward his leaving. But what the United States I think is trying to do is to make his leaving in some orderly way so he isn‘t shoved out, they have to find a place for him to go, although he says he‘s going to continue to live in Egypt.
We have our own responsibility because of our other allies, even though they may be dictators and even though it‘s a different system we have to somehow protect him if he has to go. And that‘s what I think is being worked on by Ambassador Wisner and by others who are in contact.
O‘DONNELL: Before we go, one of the great losses here to heart disease, Tim Russert, we lost here at this network. That‘s the sudden one. That‘s the unlucky case where you don‘t get a chance to get the medical intervention.
WALTERS: That‘s where every man in the country said tomorrow I‘m going to go to my doctor. And we talked to Luke Russert, his young son, because we want young people also to know what to do. Luke is very careful now. He takes special fish oil. He does exercises. He eats differently, but also, nobody expected this, including Luke.
O‘DONNELL: Yes. Barbara Walters, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We‘re going to be watching tomorrow night.
WALTERS: I hope so. Thank you, Lawrence.
O‘DONNELL: And here is that clip of Luke Russert talking to Barbara about the loss of his father and our friend and colleague, Tim Russert.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALTERS: What‘s the lesson that we can learn from the tragedy of your father‘s death?
LUKE RUSSERT: We are told that if you pass a stress test the common thinking is that you‘re OK. He passed a stress test in April and died in June. His blood pressure was controlled, according to doctors and experts. His cholesterol levels were OK.
But at the end of the day he still perished. I take away from it is that not enough is now known about the heart and not enough is done, especially on the preventative level. If you feel that you are under a ton of stress, that you‘re having trouble breathing, it‘s not always just the stresses of life, it could really be the signs that your most important muscle‘s on the verge of dying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Yesterday, we brought you a moving speech from a University of Iowa student defending his family raised by two moms. And the “Last Word” exclusive tonight, you will meet Zach Wahls along with his two mothers and his sister in their first television appearance together.
Also ahead, Donald Rumsfeld tries to rewrite his involvement in some of the worst decisions made in the Iraq war.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Time for tonight‘s “Rewrite.” After four years of relative obscurity Donald Rumsfeld is back telling the story about his years as defense secretary under President George W. Bush. In his new 832-page book, “Known and Unknown, A Memoir,” which will be available on Tuesday, for a mere $36 plus tax, in it Rumsfeld is rewriting Iraq war history arguing that it was worth the cost.
Without, of course, ever enumerating the costs including direct defense department spending, a massive run-up of the budget deficit, the deaths of more than 4,439 American troops, more than 32,037 troops wounded, and untold numbers of innocent Iraqis killed. For Rumsfeld contrition does not come easily.
On weapons of mass destruction he writes this—“the president did not lie. The vice president did not lie. Tenet did not lie. Rice did not lie. I did not lie. The Congress did not lie. The far less dramatic truth is that we were wrong.”
But Donald Rumsfeld is the only one among them who spoke this sentence about weapons of mass destruction in the first days after the invasion of Iraq, quote “we know where they are.” So if that‘s not a lie, what is?
Rumsfeld pretends he had nothing to do with the well-documented mistakes we made in Iraq. And on that his book will have to compete for historians‘ attention with Bob Woodward‘s “State of Denial,” which details a conversation on June 18th, 2003 between Rumsfeld and Jay Garner, the man put in charge of the reconstruction effort during the first few months after Baghdad fell.
“We‘ve made three tragic decisions,” Garner said. He cited the extent of the de-Baathification, getting rid of the Iraqi army, and summarily dumping the Iraqi leadership group. Garner told Rumsfeld, “you‘ve got to have an Iraqi face for the Iraqi people. There‘s still time to rectify this. There‘s still time to turn it around.”
How did Rumsfeld respond? Quote “we are where we are. We‘re not going to go back.” Immediately after that conversation, Rumsfeld and Garner held a press conference. After having just been told by Jay Garner about the disastrous mistakes Rumsfeld had presided over in Iraq and how badly things were going, Rumsfeld said this to the world.
“In short, the coalition is making good progress. It was made possible by the excellent military plan of General Franks and by the terrific leadership of the stabilization effort by Mr. Jay Garner and his team.” When it was Garner‘s turn to speak, he offered this rewrite of Rumsfeld that no one really noticed—“to all of you, I‘d like to just say one thing. There are problems in Iraq and there will be problems in Iraq for a while.”
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O‘DONNELL: Last night on this program, you saw a college student in Iowa who rose to speak to the State Legislature in defense of his parents, two women who married after Iowa became one of the only five states to allow same-sex couples to do so.
The right of same-sex couples to marry in Iowa has come under attack from the moment the state Supreme Court ruled unanimously in favor of legalizing it nearly two years ago. This week Iowa House Republicans voted to create a ballot measure that if approved would not only ban same-sex marriage, but state recognition of civil unions and domestic partnerships. But before they voted, they had to listen to my next guest, Zach Wahls.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZACH WAHLS: Good evening, Mr. Chairman. My name is Zach Wahls. I‘m a sixth generation Iowan and an engineering student at the University of Iowa and I was raised by two women. Being a student at University of Iowa the topic of same-sex marriage comes up quite frequently in classroom discussions.
And the question always comes down to, well, can gays even raise kids? And the question, you know, the conversation gets quiet for a moment because most people don‘t really have an answer. And then I raise my hand and say, actually, I was raised by a gay couple, and I‘m doing pretty well. I scored in the 99th percentile on the A.C.T. I‘m actually an Eagle Scout.
I own and operate my own small business. And if I was your son, Mr.
Chairman, I believe I would make you very proud.
I‘m not really so different from any of your children. My family really isn‘t so different from yours. So what you‘re voting here isn‘t to change us. It‘s not to change our families. It‘s to change how the law views us, how the law treats us. You are voting for the first time in the history of our state to codify discrimination into our constitution, a constitution that but for the proposed amendment is the least amended constitution in the United States of America.
You are telling Iowans that some among you are second-class citizens who do not have the right to marry the person you love. So will this vote affect my family? Would it affect yours? In my 19 years not once have I ever been confronted by an individual who realized independently that I was raised by a gay couple and do you know why? Because the sexual orientation of my parents has had zero effect on the content of my character. Thank you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: Joining me now in a “Last Word” exclusive, Zach Wahls, his mothers, Terry Wahls and Jackie Rieger, and his sister Zebby. Zach, thank you very much and your family for joining us tonight. Zach, why did you decide to tell your story to the legislature?
WAHLS: You know, Lawrence, it‘s just one of those things where I think anybody in my position really would have. You know, if it was your family that was, you know, being told it didn‘t have the legal right to exist in your state, I think you would have done the same thing.
O‘DONNELL: What kind of reaction have you received? I can tell you throughout this building and all the viewers I‘ve talked to who saw you on the show last night. It has really been an extraordinary reaction.
WAHLS: You know, it‘s really been overwhelming. You know, I was sitting there at work on Tuesday and a co-worker walked up to me and asked, do you realize you‘re all over Facebook? And I didn‘t even know what she was talking about until she took me back to her computer and I was like half of her news feed.
You know, the response has really just been absolutely overwhelming. It‘s been so inspirational for me to hear from so many people, you know, they‘re supporting, you know, my family and the rights of, you know, gay couples and families, led by gay couples all across the country. It‘s really, you know—it‘s unbelievable.
O‘DONNELL: Terry Wahls, parents have a lot of proud moments, and our eyes water at everything from kindergarten graduations right through every other big moment in their lives. This is an extraordinary one. This is a parent who‘s being defended publicly by her son. What did it feel like to watch Zach get up and do that?
TERRY WAHLS: It was magnificent. It brought tears to my eyes. It still brings tears to my eyes watching the talk, hearing all of the praise, the commentary coming from friends, and people around the globe. It‘s inspiring. It‘s really very, very lovely.
O‘DONNELL: Zach, as a precocious high school student you wrote in an op-ed piece that appeared in the “Des Moines Register” in 2009, praising the court ruling that made this kind of marriage legal. At that time you wrote, “it would take a brave lawmaker, but one ought to propose a piece of legislation to completely remove government from the marriage process altogether, leaving a religious ceremony to religious institutions and make civil unions accessible by any two people, including those of the same sex, the norm for legal benefits.”
Zach, you‘re 19. You‘re two years away, two years away from being legally eligible to run for the House of Representatives in Iowa and become that brave legislator who offers that proposal. Any thoughts of doing that?
WAHLS: You know, Lawrence, I‘m an engineering student at the University Of Iowa. I‘m planning on going into engineering. You know, that is not of course to say that there aren‘t some public policy things I‘d like to see accomplished, but personally, no. No plans yet.
O‘DONNELL: Terry, what would happen to your marriage, what would happen to your life situation if the opponents of your marriage prevailed and made it illegal in your state?
TERRY WAHLS: Well, I think the most immediate thing would be impact on health benefits. Jackie‘s on my health insurance. This summer Jackie was laid off, and we—up to our wedding, which was planned for the October 21st, to August. So that Jackie could be on my health insurance. So it would have an immediate impact that way.
O‘DONNELL: Jackie, I know you‘re not eager to get into this discussion, but you do have a mike, and I just want to get a quick reaction from you about what it was like to watch your son give that speech.
JACKIE: It was just incredible. It was like, wow, that‘s our boy.
That‘s it.
O‘DONNELL: Zebby, I just want to get a word from you about what it was like to see your brother get up there and do that.
ZEBBY: It was incredible. I mean, I‘m so proud of him. I—it‘s been very surreal, these past couple of days. And it‘s just been fantastic seeing him go out there and make a difference in the world.
O‘DONNELL: Zach, what do you think is happening to this issue in your state? Do you think you‘re—that there‘s any real threat to the legality of gay marriage there, or is this a fight that‘s just going to continue in Iowa?
WAHLS: No, yes, the House did pass AJR 6 -- 6249 or 39 I guess. But it won‘t clear the Senate. Iowa State Senator Mike Granstole has promised it won‘t come up for a vote. That means the earliest this could reach the ballot wouldn‘t be until nearly four or five years from now. So even though the other side may have scored some points here, you know, the fact of the matter is it‘s going to be a couple of years before this comes up for a vote, if it does at all.
O‘DONNELL: It is a pleasure to say that Zach Wahls just got the last word tonight. Zach Wahls along with his moms Terry and Jackie and his sister Zebby, we appreciate your time, and we commend you, Zach, for your eloquent defense of your family. Thank you all for joining us tonight.
WAHLS: Thank you very much.
O‘DONNELL: That‘s tonight‘s “Last Word.” You can learn how to follow our show on Facebook or Twitter, going to our blog and the address is thelastword.msnbc.com. “The Rachel Maddow Show” is up next with special guest former Secretary Of State Madeleine Albright. Good evening, Rachel.
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