updated 9/14/2011 10:09:03 AM ET 2011-09-14T14:09:03

Guests:Michael Coleman, Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Alan Grayson, Bernie
Sanders, Heidi Harris, Mike Papantonio

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED
SHOW tonight, live from Minneapolis.

President Obama took his jobs plan to the people today and he brought
it right to Speaker John Boehner`s home state, Ohio. And in Washington,
the GOP is already trying to kill the bill.

This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWD: Pass this bill! Pass this bill!

SCHULTZ (voice-over): In Ohio, they were chanting for jobs.

In Washington, the Republicans are squashing their hopes.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: This is largely a
campaign proposal and not about getting our economy going.

SCHULTZ: Tonight, Jonathan Alter and Katrina Vanden Heuvel of "The
Nation" on the Republican refusal to create jobs.

REP. RON PAUL (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That`s what freedom is
all about -- taking your own risk.

SCHULTZ: The Republican health care plan on full display at their
debate. Now, where have I heard that before?

FMR. REP. ALAN GRAYSON (D), FLORIDA: The Republicans want you to die
quickly if you get sick.

SCHULTZ: Former Congressman Alan Grayson is here and so is Senator
Bernie Sanders on poverty in America.

And it could be a sign of the Apocalypse. Even the Drugster says
Michele Bachmann has finally gone too far.

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: That`s jumping the shark on
this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHULTZ: Great to have you with us tonight, folks. Thanks for
watching here on THE ED SHOW on MSNBC.

Today, President Obama took his Americans Job Act right into John
Boehner and John Kasich`s backyard. The president brought his $447 billion
plan to Fort Hayes Arts High School in Columbus, Ohio. President Obama is
trying to force the Republicans to quit acting like jerks and help
unemployed Americans find jobs again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I came to talk about
how we can get to a place where we`re creating good middle class jobs again
-- jobs that pay well, jobs that offer economic security.

And the renovation of Fort Hayes is a great example of where those
jobs can come from if we can finally get our act together in Washington.

(CHEERS)

OBAMA: If we can get folks in that city to stop worrying so much
about their jobs and start worrying about your jobs.

(CHEERS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: 2012 is all about Ohio. Ohio has been crushed by years of
outsourcing and the Republican assault on working men and women in that
state. The president says his plan will put Ohioans back to work right
away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Ohio, if you pass this bill, then right here in this state
tens of thousands of construction workers will have a job again.

(CHEERS)

OBAMA: This is one of the most common sense ideas out there. All
over the country, there are roads and bridges and schools just like Fort
Hayes in need of repair. There`s a bridge in Cincinnati that connects Ohio
to Kentucky that needs this kind of renovation. There are construction
projects like these all across the country just waiting to get started and
there are millions of unemployed construction workers who are looking for a
job. So my question to Congress is, what on earth are we waiting for?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: The bridge President Obama is talking about is in Senate
Minority Leader Mitch McConnell`s state of Kentucky.

McConnell blasted the president`s jobs plan on the Senate floor today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: What the president proposed so far is not serious. And
it`s not a jobs plan. The speeches we got yesterday only reinforced the
impression that this was largely a political exercise. For one, they
undermine the president`s claim that it`s a bipartisan proposal because
much of what he`s proposing has already been rejected on a bipartisan
basis. The half a trillion dollar tax hike the White House proposed
yesterday will not only face a tough road in Congress among Republicans but
from Democrats, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: The president wants to create jobs by repairing crumbling
infrastructure in this country. Meanwhile, McConnell only cares about tax
cuts and defeating President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: Here`s how one prominent left-leaning analyst put it
yesterday. "The president knows raising taxes is the last thing you want
to do to spur job creation." He said so himself. Yet that`s basically all
he`s proposing here. Temporary stimulus to be paid for later by permanent
tax hikes, so that when the dust clears and the economy is no better off
than it was after the first stimulus, folks find themselves with an even
bigger tax bill than today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: You know, it is so easy to put these cards on the table.
The Republicans are never going to sign on to the American Jobs Act.
McConnell and Boehner, they have fought this president on every proposal
that he has ever put on the table. Boehner took some time away from the
golf course to look at the president`s plan and all he sees are tax
increases.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: When you look at what
we saw in the president`s pay-fors yesterday, we see permanent tax
increases put into effect in order to pay for temporary spending. I just
don`t think that`s really going to help our economy the way it could.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: So, the tan man is going to lay out his so-called jobs
package on Thursday. Boehner wasted pretty much the last nine months
trying to cut, cap and balance the government instead of creating one job.

The president has spent the last three years trying to dig this
country out of the deepest economic crisis since the Depression. Today, he
nailed the Republicans for having warped priorities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We got to decide what our priorities are. Do you want to keep
tax loopholes for oil companies? Or do you want to renovate more schools
like Fort Hayes so that construction workers have jobs again? Do you want
to keep tax breaks from multimillionaires and billionaires? Or do you want
to put teachers back to work and help small businesses and cut taxes for
middle class families?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: It`s all basic stuff, trying to jump-start the economy. You
know, this president scores maybe 100 percent, A-plus when it comes to
being well intended trying to do something to jump-start the economy and
putting people back to work. But he can`t do it alone. He needs the
Congress.

And I`m waiting for that moment when President Obama finally admits
that it was a bridge too far, it was a field over the mountain that he
couldn`t reach, and just admit to the American people once and for all that
he`s done everything he can and there`s no way in hell that the Republicans
are ever going to work with him on anything, because they`re all about
power. That`s all they want. That`s how they operate. And when they
don`t have power, all they want to do is obstruct -- one obstruction after
another.

Mr. President, this is not against you in any way, but there has been
a serious political miscalculation by this White House to think that just
maybe, just maybe they`ll work with you on creating jobs, when their stated
goal is only to defeat this president.

Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question: Should President Obama ever trust the Republicans? Text A for
yes, text B for no to 622639. And you can always go to our blog at
Ed.MSNBC.com for a comment and, of course, we`ll bring you the results of
the poll later on in the show.

Now, going to Ohio -- Ohio in 2012, it is going to be a huge state.
That`s why we`re going to be broadcasting in Toledo tomorrow night and then
in Columbus, Ohio, on Thursday night.

And joining me now is the mayor of Columbus, Ohio, Michael Coleman,
who was with the president today.

Mr. Coleman, nice to have you with us tonight. I`m looking forward to
being in your city on Thursday night with THE ED SHOW, a live broadcast,
because we really want to know what the folks of Columbus and the heartland
are saying about this.

And if you could just tell us, Mr. Coleman, are people in your city
and Ohio, how frustrated are they with this exercise in trying to create
jobs? How frustrated and how angry, if they are, with Washington?

MAYOR MICHAEL COLEMAN (D), COLUMBUS, OHIO: Well, I think the anger is
directed at Congress because in Columbus and around the state of Ohio,
people need jobs. The poverty rate has gone up. Unemployment rate has
gone up. And we need Congress to put the country before their own politics
in order so people in Columbus and around the state can have a good job and
put food on the table and shelter over their heads.

And this whole exercise that Congress is undergoing to oppose this job
plan simply because it is the president`s job plan is ridiculous and very
frustrating to those on the ground. In Columbus -- you heard today,
thousands of people saying, "pass this bill" and the challenge here that as
the mayor of the city of Columbus, the largest city in the state of Ohio,
we need jobs in our city. We need jobs in the state of Ohio and we need it
now.

SCHULTZ: And, Mr. Coleman, will this jobs bill help your city? Will
it put people to work? Do you believe in it?

COLEMAN: Absolutely. Here`s why. It will bring over somewhere
around $1 billion to the state of Ohio for schools and equipment and what
better thing to invest in than education and construction? It will provide
summer jobs for those that need summer jobs in Columbus. It will provide
permanent jobs and it will help with vacant abandoned housing in the city
of Columbus around the state of Ohio.

SCHULTZ: Yes.

COLEMAN: In our school system, it will result in over $100 million of
school construction, and we need it.

SCHULTZ: Yes, no doubt. A lot of cities in this country -- this
country needs it.

Has Speaker Boehner done anything in your opinion to create jobs in
the state of Ohio?

COLEMAN: Well, Speaker Boehner, and he`s an Ohioan, and I give him
credit for that. But what we want to see out of Speaker Boehner is a
working with the president, putting politics aside. Let`s put jobs above
the politics here, country above politics and self-interest. Our country
is in a crisis. And we need Congress to cooperate with the president`s
bill.

SCHULTZ: But you`re telling us tonight that Mr. Boehner has fallen
short on creating jobs? I mean, he has not offered a jobs package in all
of the times that he`s been running around the country for the last three
years asking, where are the jobs? What`s year response to that?

COLEMAN: My response is, Speaker Boehner has the obligation, duty and
responsibility to Ohioans to create jobs and work with this president. And
the more they sidestep, the more they duck and dodge this issue of jobs,
the worst off Ohioans are.

He`s representing Ohio. We got to make sure that he`s working with
the president because this is something that`s important. We need jobs.
It`s real simple.

SCHULTZ: Michael Coleman, mayor of Columbus, Ohio, great to have you
with us tonight. Thanks so much.

COLEMAN: Good to be here.

SCHULTZ: Let`s turn now to MSNBC political analyst and "Bloomberg
View" columnist, Jonathan Alter. Also with us, Katrina Vanden Heuvel,
editor of "The Nation" magazine.

I just want to ask both of you the same question.

And you first, Katrina. What is the upside for the Republicans to
obstruct this?

KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, THE NATION: You know, Ed, I just want to step
back for a moment because I think we`re at a turning point in this country.
If you look at this Republican Party, this is a reactionary extremist
Republican Party. As you said, its first goal is to defeat President
Obama. But generations in this country have grown up with reforms, the New
Deal of the Great Society, humanizing reforms. They`ve given people
opportunity and mobility. They`ve built a stable middle class.

This Republican Party wants to dismantle those reforms that have built
and supported I would say capitalism with security -- have supported that
middle class, have supported the working poor.

There have always been debates about the size of government, but look
at Eisenhower. He`s built some of those bridges and roads in Boehner or
McConnell`s district. Nixon, the Clean Air Act. You have Republicans who
understood the need for government.

Today, we have a Republican Party that wants to dismantle government
and take us -- take us back to a time of great insecurity. "You`re on your
own, Jack" seems to be the motto for the Republican Party that wants to
gut, dilute the possibility of reform, of opportunity for people who need
jobs in this time of national emergency.

So, I don`t think there`s a lot of chance that this Republican Party
will support anything, have any clue, and I wish the bloodlust that was
shown at these debates for executions and for people dying without health
insurance would turn into lust for creating the jobs and security that this
country needs desperately if we`re to restore that imperfect but always
hopeful American Dream we should aspire to.

SCHULTZ: So well put there. Jonathan Alter, you just heard the mayor
of Columbus, Ohio, saying he wants John Boehner, the speaker, to work with
the president. That`s something really he hasn`t done.

What`s the upside for the Republicans to say no to this jobs bill?

JONATHAN ALTER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, because they maintain
the same sense of discipline that has served them very well -- just no, no,
no. It`s been working for them. So why would they do anything different?

The only reason, Ed, they would do anything different, and often the
only reason anyone does anything different in politics is when the people
force them to, when the people speak. And that`s why it`s so important
that people respond in support of this bill.

Obama has thrown down the gauntlet. Now, it`s up not just to
progressives but to anybody who doesn`t want to see the New Deal repealed,
as Katrina so eloquently put it. It`s up to all of them to now get behind
this.

And I think we could use a little Lyndon Johnson muscle, too. This is
a situation where you have -- labor supports it obviously. The Chamber of
Commerce, business supports this infrastructure. The only folks who aren`t
supporting it are the politicians in the Republican Party.

So when he goes into their districts and states, I think what we needs
to say to the folks there is, look, if you don`t want it, you won`t get it.
And if the bill passes and there`s not buy-in from your local politicians,
it will be very hard to bring these projects to Ohio.

So, in other words, John Boehner, your Republican senator, your
Republican congressman, he`s taking money out of your pocket by opposing
this bill. And that`s the connection that hasn`t quite been made, that by
standing in the way of this legislation, they are standing in the way of
you getting a job.

And this, by the way, is why it`s so important, Ed --

SCHULTZ: And, Katrina --

ALTER: -- it`s so important Obama not do what you just suggested and
say the Republicans will never support this, I`m giving up. You know,
they`re just going to stop me at any opportunity --

SCHULTZ: Now`s not the time to do it. No, I`m not saying now is the
time to do it. I think that day`s coming.

I think the day -- I don`t believe the Republicans are going to work
with him on anything, but I do believe that day is coming when the
president is going to turn to the American people and say, look, I`ve done
everything I can do. I`ve offered everything I can.

I mean, he put on the table the other night Social Security, Medicare
reform. We all know reforms are cuts. I think there`s been a -- go ahead,
Katrina.

ALTER: That day will come when the vote comes up.

VANDEN HEUVEL: I was going to say, John Boehner -- I`m picking up on
what Jonathan said -- John Boehner and Mitch McConnell, do their
constituents want their Social Security and Medicare dismantled? What kind
of lives do they want for their children, for their families? And I think
you know, Ed, that there`s a movement beginning in this country. You have
inside the House, Jan Schakowsky`s bill. You have the outside with the
Rebuild the Dream Movement that is launching from below.

SCHULTZ: Sure.

VANDEN HEUVEL: President Obama is a pragmatic president. And as
such, he should understand that the people at his back are a countervailing
force to the establishment money and power inside a city that at the moment
is a swamp. We need to retake a government that works for the people and
not just for the 1 percent of the 1 percent and by the 1 percent.

SCHULTZ: Jonathan Alter, Katrina Vanden Heuvel -- great to have you
with us tonight.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Thank you.

ALTER: Thank, Ed.

SCHULTZ: We could talk for hours on this. We will do it again.
Thanks so much.

Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the
screen. I want to know what you think.

Next up, the moment in last night`s debate that defined the Republican
response to health care in America. I`ll talk with a man who predicted the
moment almost two years ago.

There are shocking numbers out about poverty in this country. We`ll
talk to Senator Bernie Sanders about what happened to shared sacrifice.
That`s next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Last week, we found out that President Obama`s approval
numbers were at record lows and his re-election chances certainly in
question. But the reports of his political demise may be exaggerated. A
new survey by Public Policy Polling shows President Obama defeating Mitt
Romney if the election were held today 49 percent to 45 percent. And the
president leads Rick Perry by 11 points, 52 percent to 41 percent.

Perry`s poor showing may have something to with the stance on Social
Security. When asked if the program should be eliminated, as Rick Perry
says it should, an overwhelming 82 percent said no.

Republicans are just out of touch when it comes to Social Security and
on health care. They play to the most extreme members of their base. More
on that, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

At last night`s Republican debate, the Tea Party debate, there was a
defining moment for the Tea Party and just who they are. It was when
Congressman Ron Paul was asked who should pay health care coverage for an
uninsured 30-year-old after a serious accident?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, DEBATE MODERATOR: He needs intensive care for six
months. Who pays?

REP. RON PAUL (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That`s what freedom is
all about, taking your own risk. This whole idea that you have to prepare
and take care of everybody --

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

BLITZER: But, Congressman, are you saying society should just let him
die?

PAUL: No.

AUDIENCE: Yes!

PAUL: I practiced medicine before we had Medicaid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Yes was the response from several audience members about
whether society should let the man die. Not a single candidate -- it
should be pointed out -- not a single candidate on the stage stepped
forward to say it would be morally wrong to let another American die by
withholding medical care.

And no one in the audience voiced any disapproval. Keep in mind this
audience had no problem booing opposing viewpoints throughout the entire
debate. It makes me think of something said on the House floor nearly two
years ago by a Democratic congressman from Florida.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAYSON: If you get sick in America, this is what the Republicans
want you to do. If you get sick, America, the Republican health care plan
is this. Die quickly. That`s right. The Republicans want you to die
quickly if you get sick.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Congressman Alan Grayson was criticized by Republicans for
those comments, but since then, the GOP still has not proposed any
alternative health care plan. They just want to rip apart what they call
Obamacare. And since Republicans continue to pander to the Tea Party base,
they don`t have to. They just need to let them die.

The former congressman from Florida who is running for that
congressional seat again, Alan Grayson, joins us tonight here on THE ED
SHOW.

Congressman, good to have you with us tonight. A couple of things --
first of all, what was your feeling when you were watching that debate last
night? You saw the question. You saw the response. And you got the
response from the crowd.

What were you thinking?

GRAYSON: I thought their true colors were shining through. That`s
what I thought. And you know, I`m often proven right, but usually not so
vividly.

I have to say that this encapsulates exactly what people fear about
the Tea Party, the so-called Tea Party, that they just love the taste of
blood in their mouths. That`s what this seems to come down to. You know,
they call themselves pro-life. But if you listen to them last night, it
seems like they were pro-death.

I think it`s sad.

SCHULTZ: Well --

GRAYSON: I mean, look, this is the fact. We have a country with 50
million people who can`t see a doctor when they`re sick and the
Republicans, the Tea Party people, they seem to want to blame you if you
have liver cancer, it`s your fault. Well, it`s not your fault.

And I think we can show a basic human decency toward other people
without losing our own. I wonder about these people who seem to have lost
their own.

You know, we`re 50th in the world now in life expectancy. Canadians
live about two years longer. Japanese people live four years longer. And
yet, we pay 30 percent more for our health care than any other country in
the entire world.

Are you telling me we can`t do better than this?

SCHULTZ: Well, I was thinking last night that this may be the same
line of thinking when the audience responded to the Texas execution
question that was put to Governor Rick Perry last week. Is there a
parallel between the reaction to that question and answer as the one we saw
last night on health care?

GRAYSON: Yes. What the parallel is sadism. That was the parallel is
-- a total lack of empathy.

You know, if you ever saw the movie "Blade Runner," the only way to
tell the difference between the robots and human beings, the only way
because technology was so advanced is that the robots had no empathy. It
seems to me that`s a good description lately of what I hear from the Tea
Party. No empathy. They just don`t care.

SCHULTZ: Do you think that any of those -- well, first of all, I`m
surprised none of those candidates stepped up and took that answer last
night because I thought it would have been an opportunity for them to
distance themselves from the radical.

Does this mean they`re all radical?

GRAYSON: Oh, absolutely. You know, they`re catering to the base
instinct in every one of us. And whatever you may say about President
Obama, good or bad, he has never done that. Never once have I heard the
president tried to push the panic button, which is such an easy thing to do
when you`re an elected official.

Never once have I heard him appeal to hatred or to fear. And they do
that incessantly on the other side, nonstop. And they got an audience for
it judging from what I heard.

SCHULTZ: Forty-nine-point-nine million people in this country don`t
have health insurance. And a doctor was on that stage last night pushing
for the free market. I think we are a better country than that.

Congressman Alan Grayson, good to have you with us tonight. I
appreciate you joining us.

GRAYSON: Thank you, Ed.

SCHULTZ: Texas Governor Rick Perry`s 2012 strategy seems to be --
hey, just go hit it and get out there and make stuff up -- and then maybe
nobody will notice. Well, I noticed. Perry is gone in the zone.

And later, Michele Bachmann went after Rick Perry last night over
mandatory vaccinations in Texas. Now, she`s peddling a story those
vaccinations cause mental retardation? Heidi Harris and Mike Papantonio
weigh in on that in a debate tonight.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And in "Psycho Talk" tonight, Rick Perry and his Tea Party
base, they are perfect for each other. None of them give a damn about
facts.

Perry proved it last night during the Republican debate when he said
this about President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He had $800 billion
worth of stimulus in the first round of stimulus. It created zero jobs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: You know, I know they`re changing the history books down
there in Texas. But I didn`t know that they were messing with the math
books as well.

Here are some facts for you, Governor Rick Perry. In the second
quarter of this year, alone, the White House reported the stimulus funded
more than 555,000 full-time jobs. The president`s Council on Economic
Advisers estimates the stimulus saved or created as many as 3.6 million
jobs through 2010. Four independent analyses had similar results.

So, Rick Perry saying the stimulus created zero jobs is a flat-out
lie. And there was a lot more Psycho Talk coming from the Texas governor
last night when Michele Bachmann accused Perry of being in the pocket of
pharmaceutical companies. This was his comeback.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: The company was Merck and it was a $5,000 contribution that I
have received from them. I raise about $30 million, and if you`re saying
that I can be bought for $5,000, I`m offended.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Perry`s right. He can`t be bought for 5 grand. It takes at
least a couple hundred throw.

You see, during the six years Perry served as chairman of the chief
fundraiser for the Republican Governors Association, Merck donated $377,500
to the RGA, Republican Governors Association. The drug company donated
another $28,500 to Texas Republican Gubernatorial Campaigns.

And to top it off, Perry`s former chief of staff was Merck`s chief
lobbyist in Texas when Rick Perry signed the controversial executive order
requiring girls to get the Merck-made HPV vaccine. Funny connection there,
isn`t it? Rick Perry is so deep into the pocket of Merck he can`t even see
his way out. So, for him to act offended by accusations that he can be
bought is Texas-sized "Psycho Talk."

Senator Bernie Sanders says poverty in America is a death sentence.
That`s being counterpunched. And he joins me next.

And in my "Playbook" the battle lines have been drawn between,
actually drawn in the fight over Ohio`s Senate Bill 5 which is now Measured
2. Nancy Pelosi speaks in support of working Americans, while Ohio
Governor John Kasich sticks with his big business buddies.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

Some stunning facts on poverty in America came out today. According
to the United States Census Bureau report, nearly one in six Americans live
in poverty, 46.2 million people. The rate of poverty, 15 percent, is the
highest since 1993. These are amazing numbers and it will take a real
commitment to turn this whole thing around.

With one in six Americans living in poverty, over 46 million people,
it`s going to take a sustained effort from both the private sector and
government. It means both parties, Republican and Democrat, have to work
on this together. One president, one congressional member can`t do it.

All the right wing is talking about is tax cuts for job creators which
is another way of saying that they want to give more money to the rich
buddies. We`ve had the Bush tax cuts for more than ten years. And we now
have the largest number of Americans living in poverty since 1993.

And the right -- the right wing, their answer is just more of the
same?

No amount of deregulation and freedom will reverse any of this with
this horrible trend.

Our next guest, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, held a Senate
hearing on poverty. Here`s a small part of that hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Poverty in America leads not just
to anxiety, it leads not just to unhappiness or discomfort or a lack of
material goods. It leads to death. Poverty in America is, in fact, a
death sentence.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: If poverty is a death sentence, it is a
big government that has acted as the judge and jury conscripting poor
Americans to a lifetime of dependency on a broken and ineffective federal
government.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

SCHULTZ: Let`s bring in Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

Senator, I want you to respond to what Senator Rand Paul said right
there.

SANDERS: It was really quite amazing. Rand Paul is blaming poverty
on the government despite the fact that we have given huge tax breaks to
the wealthiest people in this country and poverty has increased.

More to the point, in America today, we`ve got a huge moral dilemma,
Ed, and that is that while we have the most unfair and unequal distribution
of wealth and income of any major country on earth, you got 400 people on
the top owning more than wealth than the bottom 150 million people. We
also have by far the highest rate of childhood poverty of any major country
on earth, over 21 percent of our kids are living in poverty.

SCHULTZ: Yes.

SANDERS: And what we have physicians coming forward today at that
hearing saying is, Ed, if you are in the top 20 percent income bracket, you
will live 6 1/2 years longer than people in the bottom 20 percent. That`s
called a death sentence.

According to a study at Harvard University, 45,000 Americans die each
year because they don`t get to a doctor when they should and they don`t
have health insurance. That`s called a death sentence.

SCHULTZ: And, Senator, aren`t the Republicans -- and correct me if
I`m wrong -- I mean, I think they`re lying about these programs that have
been in place for 70 years. In fact, a new poll asked Americans if they
agreed to the statements describing Social Security as a monstrous lie.
Seventy-two percent said the statement is not accurate.

And Americans support Medicare just as strongly, but these
institutions of our foundation in this country to help people live in
dignity and not in poverty are under attack. And right there at a Senate
hearing you have an elected official flat-out lying about their existence.

What`s the best way to combat this in your opinion?

SANDERS: Well, I think what we have to be very clear and
understanding is that these right wing extremists at the end of the day,
their job is to represent the wealthiest people and the largest
corporations.

So, what happens, Ed, if their dream comes true and you abolish Social
Security tomorrow? What happens is that if people want some retirement
benefits, they`re going to have to sign accounts with Wall Street. And if
you abolish Medicare and Medicaid, then you`re going to see a tremendous
increase in profits in the health insurance companies.

The truth of the matter is, as you just indicated, Social Security,
Medicare, Medicaid, are extremely popular. Vast majority of the American
people want to maintain those programs. They want to strengthen those
programs.

SCHULTZ: Yes.

SANDERS: And they won`t ask the wealthiest people in this country who
have been drawing huge tax breaks to help pay for them.

SCHULTZ: And we now have just under 50 million people in this country
with no health insurance. In your opinion, Senator, when does the middle
class fall into poverty?

SANDERS: Well, what we have seen, Ed, as a result of this recession
and what the census bureau told us today, is that when you have 16 percent
of our people who are truly unemployed or underemployed, you`re seeing a
significant increase in poverty. So unemployment goes up and poverty goes
up. And that`s where we are today.

And that is why we need to do two things. Number one, we have got to
defend the social network, the safety net, so that our children can have at
least a minimum standard of living. We have to be totally ashamed of the
fact that we are by far the largest rate of childhood poverty in the
industrialized world, two or three times what other countries have. And we
need a real jobs program to put people to work so that they are not in
poverty.

SCHULTZ: Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, always a pleasure. Great to
have you with us tonight.

I`m going to be in Ohio tomorrow night and going to be asking the
workers there what they think about those institutions. Workers in Ohio
haven`t stopped fighting for their rights. Their governor is trying to
take them away with Senate Bill 5. In less than two months from now, they
will vote to re-call what`s known now as Measure 2.

We have the latest on the fight for the middle class, next. Stay with
us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Coming up in "Playbook": the fight for workers in Ohio is
heating up like never before. Governor John Kasich is fear-mongering like
you`d never believe.

Michele Bachmann`s biggest boosters are bolting from her debate. The
debate over her vaccine comments is coming up.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: From Madison to Columbus
to Washington, D.C., we must protect and defend the fundamental freedom of
workers to organize. Labor unions helped build this nation`s economy, not
just for union members, but all workers benefited. Now is not the time to
attack unions. In fact, there`s never a good time to do that.

Now is the time to strengthen workers` rights, to defend them, to
fight for workers men and women nationwide.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: And in my "Playbook" tonight, the fight for workers` rights
in America goes on. You just heard Nancy Pelosi addressing the Laborers
International Union, voicing her support for union workers. And over the
past seven months, Kasich in Ohio has made it clear big business and big
donors are more important than the working people of his state.

Kasich and his Republican cronies in the state legislature rammed
through a bill because they said it was going to cut costs. Really? They
ignored the thousands of protesters who showed up at the statehouse in the
dead of winter, at one point locking them out of the capitol.

And when a Republican on a key committee voiced reservations about the
bill, they tossed him out and replaced him with I guess you could say a
more friendly representative to Kasich.

But the people of Ohio are fighting back. They collected a record 1.3
million signatures to put the repeal of Senate Bill 5 on the November
ballot which is now Measure 2. A recent poll shows 50 percent of the
voters would reject Measure 2/Senate Bill 5; 39 percent would support to
keep it.

Kasich has been going all-out in support of his bill, painting Ohio as
a wasteland if it gets repealed. His most recent quote, "If we don`t win
this, the setback is how does Ohio get labeled in the minds of companies
around this country? Is it a slow, heavy labor state? Which tends to
scare decision makers, CEOs?"

But, tonight, Kasich showed a different side on Hannity`s show,
talking about job creation on a national level, he started preaching about
compromise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: Families are unemployed, Sean. We got to
start getting things together. We have to reach a little common ground out
here.

There are some things in that -- like that payroll tax cut and some
other things we could maybe reach agreement. But let`s find those things
that we can all agree upon so we can start getting these kids out of
poverty and get people back to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: So the president goes to Ohio and now the governor speaks
up. Governor Kasich should take his own advice and focus on the thousands
of teachers and other public employees in Ohio who are losing their jobs
because of his policies.

Starting tomorrow, THE ED SHOW will be in the state of Ohio standing
with the Americans, the workers fighting for their rights.

For more details go to our blog at Ed.MSNBC.com. We`ll be in Toledo
tomorrow night and Columbus on Thursday night.

Bachmann attempts to link HPV vaccinations to mental retardation.
You`ll never guess who is criticizing her for that one. Heidi Harris and
Mike Papantonio will join me next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

Tonight in our survey, I asked, should be President Obama ever trust
the Republicans? Seven percent of you said yes; 93 percent of you said no.

Coming up: Michele Bachmann`s latest claims over the HPV vaccine.
Heidi Harris and Mike Papantonio will join me on that.

And the town hall meeting tomorrow night in Toledo and also on
Thursday night in Columbus. Open to the public. All you have to do is
show up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R-MN), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: To have
innocent little 12-year-old girls be forced to have a government injection
through an executive order is just flat-out wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: That was Congresswoman Michele Bachmann attacking Governor
Rick Perry`s 2007 executive order mandating HPV vaccinations for school-
aged girls in Texas. And following her debate performance, Bachmann went a
bit further.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BACHMANN: There`s a woman who came up crying to me tonight after the
debate. She said her daughter was given that vaccine. She told me her
daughter suffered mental retardation as a result of that vaccine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: This morning on the "Today Show," Bachmann repeated her
claim.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BACHMANN: She told me that her little daughter took that vaccine,
that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: But according to the CDC, there`s no evidence whatsoever to
support Bachmann`s story.

Governor Rick Perry last night admitted during the debate that he got
$5,000 from Merck, the drug company that makes the vaccine. But today,
he`s calling out Bachmann`s hysterics over the safety of the vaccination,
so are other prominent conservatives.

Rush Limbaugh praised Bachmann`s debate performance but questioned the
congresswoman`s assertions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIMBAUGH: That`s jumping the shark on this. There`s no evidence the
vaccine causes mental retardation. That`s shame.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Just hours ago, Bachmann changed her tune while speaking
with Sean Hannity.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, "THE SEAN HANNITY SHOW": So that woman said that to
you, is that the cause -- is that one of the side effects of this? Because
I`ve not heard that.

BACHMANN: I have no idea.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: She has no idea. What`s going on here?

Joining me now is Heidi Harris, host of "The Heidi Harris Show" out of
Las Vegas. And also joining us tonight, Mike Papantonio, host of "Ring of
Fire" radio show.

Great to have both of you with us tonight.

Heidi, let`s start with you. First of all, RedState`s Erick Erickson
calls Bachmann`s claims that the GOP equivalent to Howard Dean`s scream.
Do you agree with this? Is this an odd and unfortunate moment for her?

HEIDI HARRIS, HOST, "THE HEIDI HARRIS SHOW": Well, I agree with a lot
of what Michele Bachmann said about government mandating a vaccine. There
have been people who died from it. There had been people who had severe
reactions. I can`t address the mental retardation.

But, as I recall, Michele Bachmann never said a doctor has proven
mental retardation is caused by it. She said that mother told her that
that her own daughter suffered from mental retardation. Is that
attributable to the vaccination? I don`t know. I don`t think Michele
Bachmann said that other than to repeat what the mother said to her.

But the fact is, there have been severe reactions up to and including
death as a result of this vaccination. And that`s not a lie.

SCHULTZ: Mike, the American Academy of Pediatrics says that there is
absolutely no scientific evidence that the HPV shot or any other vaccine
causes retardation. Why in the world would Bachmann get herself hung up in
this country of words and not being able to explain it?

MIKE PAPANTONIO, HOST, "RING OF FIRE": Dr. Bachmann was being the
typical extremist opportunist that she has always been.

Let me just tell you something, Ed, this knee-jerk kind of statement
she made, what she`s done is effectively isolated a cohort of women who now
are going to be terrified. They`re not going to go talk to their doctor
about the risk/benefit. They`re not going to research independently. All
they heard was that my child or I could become retarded according to
Bachmann if I take this vaccine.

She is a pathetic opportunist. She said that so she could pander to
her fringe right wing friends from that party. Just like Rick Perry did
when Rick Perry made it mandatory that people take this vaccine. He was
pandering to the money people at Merck who didn`t give him $5,000, Ed, it`s
more like $500,000 that Merck has moved into the coffers through Mike
Toomey and the GOP.

SCHULTZ: So Perry was lying last night?

PAPANTONIO: Absolutely.

SCHULTZ: So

PAPANTONIO: Absolutely he was lying. Look at the numbers. He might
have personally only gotten $5,000.

You look at the money that Merck has put in through the Chamber of
Commerce that went to Texas politics, went to Rick Perry and -- you have
two extremists here. Both sides are equally as crazy.

SCHULTZ: Heidi Harris, I think Michele Bachmann has made her point
about parents wanting to know if their kids are going to get vaccinated,
plus the governor of Texas has admitted he made a mistake and should have
gone to the legislature. Why in the world would she go down this road and
create this problem? Because now this is what people are talking about,
they`re not talking about protecting the kids.

What do you think?

HARRIS: Well, it`s interesting. I think as a mother she`s concerned
about it and rightfully so. Of course, Rick Perry is a father and I guess
he doesn`t have the same concerns.

But, you know, the reality is Michele Bachmann is not telling parents
don`t talk to your doctor, don`t do this under any circumstances. She
expects people with a brain to go to their doctors and discuss it. And
each parent should do that for their own child`s individual case. They
shouldn`t be having the government tell them one thing or another.

A couple years ago we were told we were all going to die from bird
flu. And guess what? We didn`t. So there you go.

PAPANTONIO: You know, Ed --

SCHULTZ: Mike?

PAPANTONIO: It`s another false choice the Republicans have done.
They`ve given a teenager -- think about this -- the teenager is given a
false choice. Do I want to run the risk of being retarded my entire life
or do I want to take my chances of dying with cancer? Four thousand women
a year die of cervical cancer.

HARRIS: Oh, give me a break. If you`re not sleeping around, you`re
not going to get HPV. Oh, stop it!

PAPANTONIO: You know, I don`t need your moral high ground.

HARRIS: You act like that`s the only choice, Mike.

PAPANTONIO: You know what`s happening here.

HARRIS: Every 13-year-old girl is not sleeping around.

PAPANTONIO: Your party is a pandering party, that panders to all the
fringe freaks. That`s what you`ve done here. It`s another example of
Republicans --

HARRIS: You`re assuming every little girl is going to be sleeping
with every guy in high school and she gets HPV by the time she`s 20 years
old.

PAPANTONIO: No, I don`t make that assumption.

I do make this assumption, I make this assumption. I make the
assumption that anything comes out of Rick Perry`s mouth or Michele
Bachmann`s mouth is done for political opportunity. That`s all they
understand.

SCHULTZ: OK.

PAPANTONIO: You should be ashamed to even defend these two people.
You know how crazy they are.

HARRIS: Give me a break. You said she`s going to be retarded or get
HPV. There`s another choice. How about abstinence? There`s a concept.

SCHULTZ: Heidi, you think that Michele Bachmann had her best
performance last night? Is she still very much alive in this?

HARRIS: I think so. I think she did really, really well. I mean,
she had Rick Perry back on his heels. She took him across and spanked him
hard last night. And he deserved it. I thought she was very, very good.

SCHULTZ: All right. Heidi Harris and Mike Papantonio, always a
pleasure to have you with us tonight. Spirited debate on that. Thanks a
lot.

That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed Schultz.

Tomorrow night, THE ED SHOW goes to Toledo, Ohio, and you`re invited.
We`ll see you from the corner of South Huron and Washington tomorrow night,
with a live performance of THE ED SHOW. Hope you can join us up here on
the neighborhood.

"THE LAST WORD" with Lawrence O`Donnell starts right now. We`ll see
you tomorrow night in Ohio.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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