updated 9/15/2011 10:30:28 AM ET 2011-09-15T14:30:28

Guests: Leo Gerard, Marcy Kaptur, Mike Bell

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: I am with the folks in Ohio. Good evening,
Americans. Welcome to THE ED SHOW live from Toledo, Ohio.

The president is on tour to promote his jobs bill. Tonight, I`m
giving the folks of Ohio to have a chance to have their voices heard on
jobs and a lot of other issues, especially Senate Bill 5.

I`m here tonight to talk about American jobs, American workers. You
folks OK with that?

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight folks here on MSNBC, THE ED
SHOW.

We are beginning a tour of a number of cities. We`re first here in
Toledo, Ohio. I`ve never been to Toledo, Ohio, and I`ve met nothing but
great people, people who are concerned --

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: First of all, I like it because I don`t have to wear a suit
tonight.

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: OK. You know, Toledo, Ohio, is a very special place in
America`s history when it comes to workers. I saw that today as soon as we
got here at the airport. We got in the car, we started driving through, a
city that I wanted to know about. And, of course, we had a cabdriver.
Cabdrivers are like encyclopedias. They know everything there is to know
about their city.

And one fact that jumped out at me right there in the cab today was
China has purchased land in the city of Toledo. Is that correct?

AUDIENCE: Yes!

SCHULTZ: So, let`s start the program understanding one thing -- our
competitor, China, across the way, thinks there`s something of value in
Toledo, Ohio, so they purchased it. I guess it it`s that free market thing
they`re doing, you know?

But here in America, we haven`t had anyone step up and say, I want
this building, I want this building, I want to create opportunities. Now,
Chinese are willing to do it here in America, but where are investors?

Now, when we were driving through the city today, I saw the elementary
school and I thought -- well, Senate Bill 5 is after the teachers who are
in that building. When I went past the construction site, there were a few
works, not as many as there should have been. When I went past Mercy
Hospital, I thought -- well, those nurses are in there, they`re fighting
like hell, they want a fair shake.

And how many people are walking into that emergency room without
health care?

And then I went to downtown area and I saw all of these buildings.
Now, folks, you hear about it on the news, you read about it on the news.
But when you go through a city and you see brick and mortar and you see
buildings that have got signs on them that say, nobody`s doing business
here, you can lease it, and it`s building after building -- you know what
this city is really good at so far? Putting boards over windows.

And I couldn`t help but think, OK, what happened in this it building?
What did it they used to do here? What did they manufacture?

Where did those jobs go? Why did they lock them out? What do they do
in that building? Where did those workers go?

Did they leave? Are they gone? Do they not want to work? What`s
happening here?

And when you see buildings like that here in the Rust Belt, here in
the bread basket of labor in America, here where there are open hearts that
want to work and don`t want a handout, you have to ask yourself the
question -- what kind of country are we becoming?

President Obama is trying to do something to put people back to work,
but we have this political divide taking place in Washington, D.C., that is
absolutely amazing. We have one party that says, "We`re not going to do
anything to help this president because we want to defeat him." The
president talks to the American people and says, these folks can`t wait 14
more months.

So the president is on tour. I hope he goes on tour every single day,
and I hope he goes to North Carolina again. I hope he goes to Indiana. I
hope he goes to Michigan. I hope he comes back to Ohio.

He was in Ohio yesterday, and he said this about the jobs bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASICHRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ohio, if you pass this bill,
then right here in this state, tens of thousands of construction workers
will have a job again.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: Pass this jobs bill, and there will be funding to save the
jobs of up to 14,000 Ohio teachers and cops and firefighters.

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

OBAMA: There are schools all throughout Ohio that need this kind of
renovation. There`s a bridge in Cincinnati that connects Ohio to Kentucky
that needs this kind of renovation. There are construction projects like
these all across the country just waiting to get started, and there are
millions of unemployed construction workers looking for a job. So, my
question to Congress is, what on earth are we waiting for?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: And, of course, a Gallup poll out today showing 45 percent
of Americans want their congressional member to vote for the American Jobs
Act. Only 32 percent want them to vote against it.

So, once again, the people aren`t being listened to by the
Republicans.

Now, in the state of Ohio, boots on the ground here, it it`s a radical
agenda that has been proposed by Governor Kasich. He has gone after
collective bargaining. He`s gone after the workers.

So, here`s what`s happening. In Washington, they are saying -- well,
we`re not going to do this jobs package because we want to see President
Obama defeated, and that`s our goal. That`s the Republicans.

Here in the heartland, you have Kasich on the offensive against
American workers. What has he done to fill these factories across the
street that are empty? What has he done to help out those teachers? What
has he done to help out those nurses?

What has he done? He`s taken away their voice in the workplace. And
that`s why these Americans that you see here tonight, 1.3 million Ohioans
have signed on to Issue 2 to say, we don`t want it like this in our state.

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: So, it wasn`t only happening in Wisconsin, in Indiana, in
Michigan, in New Jersey, in Florida -- it`s happening here in Ohio. OK?

And last night, after months of being very dogmatic about his
position, after months of saying he doesn`t want to negotiate, now that
Issue 2 is on the ballot, here`s Kasich on safe haven over with Hannity on
FOX News last night. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: Families are unemployed, Sean. We`ve got
to things together. We`ve got to reach common ground out there. There are
some things in there -- like the payroll tax cut and other things that we
can agree on. But let`s find those things we can all agree upon so we can
start getting these kids out of poverty and get people back to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Yes, let`s find some of those things we can work on,
Governor Kasich.

I want every Ohioan to know tonight that we have this chair right
here. This was for Governor Kasich. And I wanted him to come on the
program, but he didn`t want to be here to talk about it.

You know, I`m going to be in Columbus, Ohio, tomorrow night. And,
Governor, I`m going to have this same chair sitting right here for you,
buddy.

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: You come right on over here.

You just -- you see, because, John, when you used to have a show on
FOX, I was a guest on your show. But now that you`re a hot shot governor
going after all these workers, you don`t want to come on my show and talk
about the issues, dude? You go over there with Hannity, where it`s safe
haven and get the soft balls.

And now, after beating up the workers and getting Senate Bill 5
through a radical session of your legislature, now you want to sit down and
talk about it, now that Issue 2 is on the ballot. It doesn`t work that
way.

Here`s the bottom line. There`s a sign -- there`s a sign in the back
of this room, it says, "Fight the attack on the middle class," because the
--

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: The battle lines are now drawn. The legislative battle
lines are now drawn. And this is about workers` rights. This is about the
middle class being under attack.

But tonight, if I can get one viewer across America to understand what
it`s like to be in a manufacturing city that has lost hundreds of thousands
of jobs, 400,000 manufacturing jobs gone out of this state, that`s a big
number. The mayor of this city who is going to join us later tonight is
worried about his tax base, and he can`t meet the budget.

Well, hell, all the workers are gone! How can you have a tax base if
you don`t have anybody working and paying it?

Now, what I just said, if you had watched the Republican debate the
other night, what I just said is pretty much brain surgery, isn`t it?

Get your cell -- we`re going to hear from these great folks here in
the program tonight. Get your cell phones out, I want to know what you
think. Tonight`s question: will the American Jobs Act help towns like
Toledo get back off their feet? Text A for yes, text B for no to 622639.
You can always go to our blog at Ed.MSNBC.com for a comment. And we`ll
bring you results later on in the show.

Now, tonight, joining me is a brother in the fight. Leo Gerard is the
president of the United Steelworkers Union here on THE ED SHOW.

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: I read about it. I hear about it. Today, I drove afternoon
and I saw it.

It has a profound effect on you when you see a building, a brick, a
mortar that`s empty. It makes you do a double and triple take, and think
about, what the hell is going on in this country?

Mr. Gerard, what are we going to do to fill these buildings up?

LEO GERARD, PRES., UNITED STEELWORKERS: Well, I think the first thing
we need do is start working to pass the president`s jobs bill. I think
that`s a step in the right direction.

(CHEERS)

GIRARD: We`ve got to reject the radical right-wing agenda. Since the
passage of the Bush administration in 2000, we`ve lost 58,000 factories.
Toledo is one of those examples, but you can go to many other communities,
many other towns where you see the same thing.

Then you got a radical agenda because the tax base has been eroded,
you`ve got he Kasichs of the world saying they`re going to take away
workers` rights, they`re going to lay off teachers, firemen, nurses.
They`re not going to do anything about job creation. And what you`re going
to do is dig the hole even deeper.

What we need to do is make sure that the workers reject SB-5 and
reject on Issue 2, vote no on Issue 2 and show Kasich --

(CHEERS)

GERARD: What they need to do is show this governor and other
governors that what people want is a chance to earn a living. That`s what
they want. They want a chance to have their voice heard, they wanted to
have a chance to work and retire with dignity. And we`re not going to do
that unless we rebuild the manufacturing base of this country.

SCHULTZ: We`re going to talk more about the manufacturing base later
on in the program with you, Mr. Gerard.

But I want to talk about this issue, Issue 2. What if it stands up?
If it doesn`t get repealed, what does that do to the state of Ohio and
workers?

GERARD: I think what it will do to the state of Ohio is basically
take away the bargaining power of workers and what it will do is continue
to suppress people`s wages, people`s standard of living. We just saw a
report recently that showed -- there are a bunch of right-wingers outside.
What it shows is -- what it shows is we`ve got more poverty now than at any
time since the Great Depression. We`ve got more people that have fallen
out of the system than any time since the Great Depression.

And unless we reject SB-5 by supporting and voting no on Issue 2,
we`re going to continue to suppress wages. We`re going to continue to
suppress people`s voices, and Toledo won`t get up off the ground.

The fact you saw the property purchased by the Chinese, the Chinese
want to invest in America, but American management wants to invest in
China.

SCHULTZ: What`s your thought when you heard that China has purchased
land here in the city of Toledo for $3 million after the city put $43
billion in an investment into it?

GERARD: What I thought was it`s a betrayal of America`s industrial
base. The fact of the matter is, you`ve got Chinese companies that want to
invest here, they want to invest -- hang on a minute. They want to invest
in the solar industry here, but they`re destroying the solar industry that
was already here.

So, what we need to do is make sure that we`re talking about
government, we`re talking about President Obama`s jobs bill. And if we can
get Republicans to pass the president`s jobs bill, we can create American
jobs for American workers using American taxpayer dollars. We don`t need
to rely on the Chinese if we could get the Republicans to do their job.

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: Joining us later in the program talking more about
manufacturing jobs, we`ll visit with the folks here in Ohio, and there`s
just so many facets of creating jobs. It`s about risk takers, it`s about
believing in American workers.

Leo Gerard, thanks for joining us tonight. Leo will join us a little
bit later on in the program. Remember to answer tonight`s question there
at the bottom of the screen. I want to know what you think.

Manufacturing jobs Ohio have been on a decade-long decline.
Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur of Ohio joins me to talk about the importance of
passing the jobs bill.

And later the mayor of Toledo joins us, a supporter of Senate Bill 5.
I want to know why. He`s a former firefighter.

Stay with us. We`re right back with more from the folks of Toledo,
Ohio. We`ll be right back.

(CHEERS)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW here in Toledo, Ohio, where we
are with the folks who want a job.

I want to go to the folks here. Your name?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Teresa Brown (ph).

SCHULTZ: Why are you here tonight?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: To support labor and get this thing passed.

SCHULTZ: Is it all about labor or is it about the middle classes?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: It`s about the middle class. All we want is to make
some decent livings, good wages. We just want to live.

SCHULTZ: Your name, sir?

AUDIENCE MEMBRE: Sherrod Crowder (ph).

SCHULTZ: What do you think about the environment here in Ohio and the
Senate Bill 5?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I`ve seen a whole lot better environment. Senate 5
--

SCHULTZ: How important is it that it gets repealed?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: It`s the most important thing in my lifetime.

SCHULTZ: You, sir, what do you think?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think Senate Bill 5 is going to do nothing but
take away workers` voice at work.

SCHULTZ: What would you do to fill these buildings across the street?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think I`d support the president`s jobs bill. I`d
start making sure we had fair trade agreements with foreign countries.

(CHEERS)

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I`d make sure that countries that manipulate their
currency, that there would be penalties on them so we`d have a level
playing field here in American manufacturing.

SCHULTZ: And what do you think?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I say the same thing. I totally agree with them.
We need to get rid of Kasich, for one.

SCHULTZ: What do you make of Kasich`s attitude?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Terrible.

SCHULTZ: Terrible?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Terrible.

SCHULTZ: He said on TV last night it`s time to negotiate.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: He`s cocky. He`s not ready to negotiate at all.

SCHULTZ: What do you think?

AUDIENCE MEMBER: I think -- I came to talk to you about health care.
I have six kids with heart problems and a 21-year-old daughter who has --

SCHULTZ: We`ll talk about that. We`re going to talk about Senate
Bill 5. Appreciate you bringing it up. Thank you.

Stay tuned. THE ED SHOW continues on MSNBC from Toledo, Ohio. We`re
right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was in Ohio
yesterday, and their Republican governor who -- you know, he doesn`t agree
with me on a lot of stuff, but he agreed it`s a good idea to cut taxes for
the middle class. He said, this is not a time for partisanship. This is a
time to figure out a way in it which we can get things moving in this
country. He`s absolutely right.

(CHEERS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Maybe Governor John Kasich supports President Obama`s jobs
plan because the loss of manufacturing jobs has ravaged his state. The
shrinking manufacturing industry in Ohio is in line with the losses on a
national level.

After three decades of steady employment, manufacturing jobs in the
United States of America have been disappearing over the past 10 years.
The country lost more than a third of its manufacturing jobs from 2000-
2010, in the last decade.

And the situation in Ohio is worse. In the past decade, Ohio has lost
nearly 400,000 manufacturing jobs, 6 percent more than the national
average. At least 100,000 of those jobs were lost to China.

Ohio cannot rebound from it the these losses without help. The
president knows it, John Kasich knows it, although won`t admit it.

My guest also knows it, and that is my guest Congresswoman Marcy
Kaptur of Ohio`s ninth district. She joins me this evening.

(CHEERS)

REP. MARCY KAPTUR (D), OHIO: Good evening.

SCHULTZ: Congresswoman, good to have you with us tonight.

KAPTUR: It`s my privilege.

(CHANTING)

KAPTUR: I love that audience.

SCHULTZ: No doubt. Absolutely.

What do you think needs to be done to bring the manufacturing jobs
back Ohio? I drive down the street today in Toledo, I see empty buildings,
it really is gut-wrenching to see it because all of the things that you
think about when you do see them. You know, boarded-up buildings, you want
to know what was in them? Where are they now? What country did they go
to? Where are the people?

How do we replenish these jobs, Congresswoman?

KAPTUR: Well, first of all, Ed, thank you for coming to our community
and to our region. And I want to Leo Gerard, thank you. Thank you for
helping our people tell our story, for magnifying our voice around the
country.

One of the most important things we can do right now is support the
president`s jobs act as step number one. But that`s only step number one.
I agree with the guest in the audience who said that we have to renegotiate
our trade agreements, because every year -- and I said this to the
president -- even if we pass this bill and we pay for it -- it`s paid for,
it`s nearly about $450 billion -- our trade deficit equals about that
amount, half a trillion a year, $500 billion. So it offsets any investment
we would make in our country.

We have to renegotiate these trade agreements so that America is on a
level playing field again. And no president in the last 25 years has been
willing to do that.

SCHULTZ: Well, how are you going to do it when you`ve got such
corporate interests in these trade agreements? There`s more on the table
that are anti-worker and there`s a sense in the Congress that the president
isn`t moving fast enough on it. I mean, you`re talking about an awfully
heavy lift, are you not?

KAPTUR: You`re talking about a heavy lift, but I want to tell you
that the reason I`m proud that you`re in Toledo is because Toledo has
always been a strong voice for labor rights in our country and around the
world. And, you know, this it has been an historic struggle.

It started with our nation, founded in slavery, where it took us
hundreds of years to both legally stop it and then to deal with all of its
side effects. It wasn`t until the 20th century, a century later, we even
got labor laws, fair labor standards, on the books. Our mother, our father
were a part of that era.

And now we see many of the elected officials in our state and
nationally trying to pick apart the achievements of the 20th century. As
we move into the 21st century, what we see happen in the last 25 years is
the outsourcing of production where workers in Mexico, China are set
against our own workers and they are earning so much less money, so many
fewer benefits and we`ve got to level that playing field.

SCHULTZ: OK. Level the playing field with changing the trade
agreements, passing the American jobs bill that the president`s got on the
table.

Do you think any Republicans will step up and go along? Do you think
this bill has a chance?

KAPTUR: I think that we have to fight for it. I think that the
American people have to speak out. What I like best about the president`s
speech was he said he was going to take his fight to America. And he`s in
Columbus, Ohio -- he was in Columbus, Ohio. And that`s what it`s going to
take.

It`s not going to take a few guys getting together over in the White
House behind closed doors and reaching a deal. It it`s going to take the
president fighting with us.

SCHULTZ: So, how often do you want the president to go out?

KAPTUR: How, what?

SCHULTZ: The president has been out -- the president has been out the
last three days in Ohio and North Carolina. Is this what he has to do, in
your opinion, get out there? And how often should he get out there and
take this fight to the people.

KAPTUR: Absolutely. That`s where he needs to be. He needs to be
there as much as he possibly can. He has family to consider, of course,
but he has to allow his cabinet people to run the departments, to carry out
the will of Congress, to carry out his administration`s agenda.

And he has to go to the people. He is most effective spokesperson as
is Vice President Biden. This is a royal fight.

SCHULTZ: All right. Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur, appreciate your time
tonight. It certainly is. Appreciate your time. Thank you for joining
us.

(CHEERS)

SCHULTZ: Rush Limbaugh says (INAUDIBLE) calling them angry white men.
I`ll let the
Drugster and his buddies speak for themselves in "Psycho Talk."

And how do we get Toledo back to work? That`s the question. How do
we get America back to work? Clean energy. Leo Gerard will join us again
and we`ll hear from the folks in Toledo with their ideas.

You`re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC. Stay with us.

(CHEERS)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And in Psycho Talk tonight, Rush Limbaugh is whining about
being called an angry white man. And of course he says it`s all the
liberals` fault.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Their talk radio consultants,
advising program director, you can`t go that way. It`s angry white man
talk. Who created this notion of angry white men? The liberals did.

And for what purpose? To discredit all of conservatism. You`ve got
to fight every day the caricatures and the templates of us that the left
puts out there. Talk radio is not made up of angry white hosts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: I think rush Limbaugh does a pretty good job of discrediting
conservatism without any help from liberals. And it it`s no secret where
the angry white man reputation comes from.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIMBAUGH: God, some of you people are stupid. Why don`t you come in
and tell us about the evil of the fossil fuels while the snow plow is
driving by your house to get your stupid little hybrid out of a drift, so
that you can head to the Whole Foods commune and pick out your bean
sprouts.

MARK LEVIN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Why do you hate my country? Why do
you hate my constitution? Why do you hate us? I don`t know why your
husband doesn`t put a gun to his temple. Get the hell out of here.

MICHAEL SAVAGE, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Shove it up your behind. See
if I car. Shove it up your ears, already. I hate all of you, you left
wing vermin.

GLENN BACK, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Get off my phone, you little
pinhead. You people don`t care about the trillions -- get off my phone!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Rush, you and your conservative buddies earned your
reputation all by yourselves, the angry white men. Try and blame it on a
liberal conspiracy is angry white conservative Psycho Talk.

The mayor of Toledo is a former firefighter, the former city fire
chief, and the state fire marshal. He knows about public employment in
Ohio firsthand. So why are does he support Senate Bill 5? He joins me
next. And I praise him for doing it, right here on THE ED SHOW. Stay with
us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: By now, we know what`s at stake when Ohio voters go to polls
to decide on Issue 2. Senate Bill 5 referendum, that`s what it is. We
have seen thousands march on the state capitol to protest the loss of
public workers` rights. Labor groups, including teachers, police officers
and firefighters, have said it loud and clear, that Senate Bill 5 is a raw
deal for Ohio workers.

But one man who was a firefighter once in his career for more than 20
years now finds himself in a very difficult position. Toledo Mayor Mike
Bell has come out in support of Issue 2. He wants to maintain Senate Bill
5 because he says his city is financially strapped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR MIKE BELL, TOLEDO, OHIO: Years ago, I lost my job as a
firefighter because my city ran out of money. So as mayor, I`m working to
fix my city without laying off good people or raising taxes. That`s why I
support Issue 2.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Joining us tonight, Toledo Mayor Mike Bell. He`s here with
us on THE ED SHOW and I appreciate it. I have immense respect for this
man. He is in the arena. He has a different opinion on something. He`s
willing to come in front of his constituents and talk about it. That`s a
hell of a lot more than the governor of Ohio is doing. And that`s John
Kasich.

Mr. Bell, I appreciate you being here tonight. And respect you for
being here.

BELL: No problem, Ed.

SCHULTZ: But I don`t understand your position. You`re a former
firefighter.

BELL: Right.

SCHULTZ: Isn`t it about the people being protected? Isn`t it about
workers having an opportunity to speak their peace in the workplace, as
opposed to the budget, when with the top two percent in this country is
getting all the tax breaks? Why do you have this position?

BELL: The reason I have this position is that we`ve been trying to
recover from a recession in our city. We started off in 2007 at 169
million. Right now, we`re probably looking, at the end of the year, maybe
152.

So obviously there`s a large gap there. And we have to be able to
lean ourselves down until the economy turns around. Otherwise --

SCHULTZ: So it`s about the money.

BELL: It`s actually about the money. Because, to start off with,
nobody is coming to work for free. So we need to be able to do whatever is
necessary so that our city survives.

I`m not against collective bargaining. What I am, though, is pro
reform. If we don`t have appropriate reforms in place, then our city won`t
survive.

SCHULTZ: But reforms are about cuts. Let`s face it. You`ve just
said it`s about the money.

BELL: Yes, it is.

SCHULTZ: Once again, these are middle class workers who are going to
have to serve it up when the top two percent are getting all the breaks.
Where`s the fairness in that?

BELL: Here`s the issue for me and my city. OK, it`s actually a
double storm. One is that we attempt to do the concessions and be able to
work through that. Or the second portion of that storm is that those
people that don`t want to do that, then the only other thing left for a
mayor to do in a major city is to lay off people.

SCHULTZ: But doesn`t Governor Kasich`s budget have something to do
with this as well. The city is not getting the state support it should
get? We`re talking about going after essential services.

BELL: I would say that the recession that started many years ago is
having a problem here. And it`s not just in Toledo and it`s not just in
Ohio. It`s across the whole United States.

SCHULTZ: That`s true. And during this recession, have we not given
tax breaks in 2001, 2003 and then renewing the Bush tax cuts, which of
course is less money into the Treasury, which make it`s harder on folks
like you in the municipal area?

There is a financial trickle-down to this.

BELL: Here is -- the bottom line for me is I can`t spend money I
don`t have. So in this state of Ohio, the city of Toledo is required to
have a balanced budget by March 31st. So I have two choices. I lean -- I
lean, through concessions, our expenses down, or I lay a bunch of people
off.

Those are the two choices. It`s not if or -- it`s one or the other.
So in this case, because it is bad --

SCHULTZ: But you won`t go after the wealthy.

BELL: I don`t have -- I`m just a mayor of a city. I can`t go after
the wealthy.

SCHULTZ: So why would you side with a governor that is not willing to
go after the corporations that don`t pay their fair share.

BELL: This isn`t about siding with the governor or not siding with
the governor. This is about trying to -- have our city survive. And
because nobody else will speak up, that doesn`t change that we still have
an issue here that has to be addressed.

The issue is that if it we don`t have the money in the city, we can`t
spend it. I don`t have a problem providing raises. I don`t have a problem
doing any of that stuff when we have the money. But when you have a 20
million dollar cut from what you had about five years ago, something`s got
to change.

SCHULTZ: But would you agree that this country, and its trickle-down
to Toledo, is willing to take it out of the backs of the middle class
workers and not ask the affluent to pay just a little bit more to make this
work?

BELL: No, I am not necessarily in agreement with that.

SCHULTZ: You`re what?

BELL: I`m not necessarily in agreement with what you said.

SCHULTZ: OK. So you think that these tax cuts for the top two
percent have been good for America?

BELL: What I think, for me, is that once again, in Toledo, we have
had a drop in a lot of different industries that have caused problems for
us here.

SCHULTZ: OK. I get that.

BELL: So what I`m dealing with is the issue of Toledo and how do we
make Toledo and northwest Ohio survive.

SCHULTZ: It`s not only Toledo, though. You`re supporting a measure
that wants to take away the rights of workers all throughout the state.

BELL: But what I`m dealing with is how do I pay the bills?

SCHULTZ: OK.

BELL: When the yelling and screaming and all that is over, we still
have to be able to pay the bills.

SCHULTZ: So you need the state to pass a referendum to run your city
financially?

BELL: Well, what do you do -- I`ll throw it back at you -- when
people say no?

SCHULTZ: I know what I`d do.

BELL: We`ve had this already. I`ve already had it. We started off
with a 48 million dollar deficit. I went to my unions. I talked to them.
I showed them the books. They --

SCHULTZ: But did you go to the wealthy of the state of Ohio? There`s
plenty of them.

BELL: Let me finish this. I`m dealing with Toledo. I asked them,
help me with this. They said, mayor, we can`t help you. It`s your
problem. So if it`s my problem, then I need to fix it.

SCHULTZ: OK. Now, you were a firefighter.

BELL: Yes, I was.

SCHULTZ: You lost your job, correct?

BELL: Lost my job.

SCHULTZ: OK. Now had these protections been in place when you lost
your job, you wouldn`t have lost your job, because these protections came
into place later on. Is that correct?

BELL: When I was -- back in 1980, I think somebody was saying the
union wasn`t around in -- Local 92 was around back then. When I lost my
job, I was the first one out the door. I was gone for about nine months,
and then I got my job back.

What got my job back actually was the court system. It was the court
system through affirmative action.

SCHULTZ: So you think that this is the best way for America to go, to
take away the voices of workers in the workplace to balance a budget, when
the rich in this country are getting off Scott-free.

BELL: Once again, I said I`m not against collective bargaining. I`m
saying I`m very pro reform, but I`m not against collective bargaining.

SCHULTZ: You need to switch your position on the issue.

BELL: No, no, no. What this brings is there`s still collective
bargaining. What this does is bring reform. We need to have the reforms
inside our state.

SCHULTZ: I disagree with you, Mike Bell, but I appreciate you coming
on the program. You`re a stand-up guy for holding up your position. I
think you should change your position. I`m asking for the order tonight.
Come on, get with the people.

(CROSS TALK)

SCHULTZ: Coming up, clean energy will put this country back to work.
How America can take the lead instead of taking the back seat. Leo Gerard
weighs in along with the folks here he in Toledo. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Let`s find out what the folks
had to think about that last interview. Did you hear that last interview?
What did you think of that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I certainly did. I`ve been a friend of the mayor
for a long time, but he`s wrong on this one. What I would like to say -- I
would like to invite my non-union friends to realize -- not be angry with
those of us who are in the union and do have benefits. Vote no on two and
join a union and get some benefits. Get some worker rights.

SCHULTZ: What do you say to the mayor when he says it`s about the
money. He doesn`t have the money to run the city?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think you told him just exactly what we feel,
Ed. You did a nice job.

SCHULTZ: Your thoughts on it, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Same.

SCHULTZ: Same? Yes, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he has the courage to come here and speak
his mind. And I think the governor ought to do the same thing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, for him, I think he`s misdirected in his
-- the money is not the end result here. He needs to look at the facts and
what the end result will be with this passage of this bill.

SCHULTZ: Sir, what did you think of that interview with that
gentleman?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know the mayor, but I believe he`s using
his talking points. The mayor is forgetting that once he`s out of office,
he`s coming back in the same, looking for a job. He has to go by the same
as everyone else. He`s been told what to do and he`s playing it well.

SCHULTZ: The way I take it, it comes down to priorities and what I
talked about earlier in the show. We are facing a list of priorities in
this country. What`s important to us? Is it important to attack the
middle class when it comes to collective bargaining?

Look, if you`re for collective bargaining, then you have to go no on
two. I don`t know what else you can do. But what we`re seeing in this
country is mayors just like Mike Bell, who`s being pressured at a local
level, because the feds aren`t getting the money into the treasury and the
state`s not getting the money it needs to give basic services to people
such as teachers, firefighters, the lot, which makes up the foundation of
this country.

Stay with us. We`re right back with more from Toledo after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Back in Toledo, Ohio here on THE ED SHOW. Joining me now is
Leo Gerard --

(APPLAUSE)

SCHULTZ: -- the energy sector, renewable energy now. There`s such a
broad opportunity here for renewable energy. But here, again, the Chinese
are sticking it to us. Where are we deficient?

LEO GERARD, UNITED STEELWORKERS PRESIDENT: What we need is we need to
have a program. We need to have an energy program. We need to have a
program that says, first and foremost, we`re going to rebuild our
industrial base. Part of the reason Mayor Bell has a problem is that the
taxpayers have gone. The plants have gone, like you pointed out coming in.

The workers are laid off. The standard of living has fallen. They`re
not able to pay. What we need is to rebuild the manufacturing base. We
can do that with renewable energy, with solar, with wind. We need to fix
the rail system, mass transit system.

We need to fix our schools; 60 percent of the schools in America are
older than 50 years old. I want my kids learning in a good school with
good teachers.

SCHULTZ: But Leo, isn`t it true that China is investing far more in
renewable energy than we are? Their infrastructure dollars far outweigh
what we`re doing as a country?

GERARD: China is investing much more in renewable industry. In fact,
what China has done is publicly announced they`re going to cheat to win.
What they said is they`re going to dominate the global solar industry.
This is Toledo area, the glass capital of America. We should be making
solar panels here. What they said is they`re going to dominate the solar
panel area in the world, even if they have to sell under the price of
production.

We`ve got Republicans sitting there with their thumbs in their ears,
pretending they don`t hear anything. We ought to be taking them to task,
taking it away from them and building it here.

SCHULTZ: Now, just down the road from here, there`s a perfect
example. The Chrysler manufacturing plant was saved by the Obama
administration with the car loan. Is that the kind of thing that we have
to do to jump-start renewables?

GERARD: I think we have to make sure we have a strategy. We need a
strategy that says, we want to win on this. We have to have a strategy
that says, we`re going to do this. We`re going to have to have a strategy
that says we have a renewable energy plan, a renewable energy standard for
the whole of the country, one that`s going to lasts 10, 15, 20 years, so
that we can attract investment. And one that says, as the brother said
back there, we`re going to force China to play by the rules and quit their
cheating.

SCHULTZ: And in terms of workers and what we do in manufacturing in
this country, I ran into a few people today saying that the Rust Belt is
never going to come back.

GERARD: I don`t believe that. Look it, if you look around, we make
the most efficient cars now. Our steel energy is the most efficient in the
world. Our glass production is the most efficient in the world. Our paper
production is the most efficient in the world.

The fact of the matter is we`re the ones trying to play by the rules
while everybody else is cheating. And everyone else has a strategy.

One last point; China and Germany have a balanced account on trade.
And German wages are higher than ours. What`s the reason? Because Germany
has a process. Germany has a strategy.

SCHULTZ: Leo Gerard, thanks for your time tonight. This crowd has a
lot to say, and we`ll talk with more of them when we come back. Stay
tuned. You`re watching THE ED SHOW on MSNBC, live from Toledo, Ohio.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: The folks of Toledo, Ohio! What`s your name?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jackie Hayworth.

SCHULTZ: What do you make of the climate here in Ohio? What has to
happen?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need jobs. We need to have a new governor.
We need to have a new mayor. I hate to say that, but --

SCHULTZ: What do you want government to do to create jobs?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need jobs. We need to support our president.
We need to support the teachers, the firefighters, all the union workers
that are here. We need help. We need help.

SCHULTZ: Your thoughts, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I agree with had her completely. This is my wife.
I wouldn`t say no.

SCHULTZ: What do you think, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to rebuild the infrastructure in the
United States and we need to make sure America goes back to work. That`s
what we need.

SCHULTZ: Great. Sir, you are with the auto industry, aren`t you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

SCHULTZ: Tell us about it. What did that loan do to keep that
Chrysler plant open down the street?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only Chrysler, but it kept the GM plant open,
too. President Obama, he supported us tremendously and we won`t ever
forget that. Let me just say that I`m proud to be a hardworking middle
class American. And that`s what this is all about, the fight against the
attack on the middle class.

SCHULTZ: Is that what it`s all about? What do you think has to
happen, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do I think of what?

SCHULTZ: What do you think has to happen to turn this around and get
this job market going again?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to support the president and his jobs
program. And we can`t -- listen, I have fought for the freedoms of this
country, not to have some right wing person take it away from me.

SCHULTZ: And you think that`s happening?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think absolutely that`s happening. They better
start listening to the people in this room and the voice of America.

SCHULTZ: Your thoughts, ma`am?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to pass.

SCHULTZ: You`re going to pass. How about you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think one of the things that haven`t been
talking about is the unity within the working class of America. There`s
been a lot of talk of public and private sector. Those are words that have
been brought in to divide working class people.

We have to look at that we`re all going to work every day. We`re all
taxpayers. There is no difference. We need to band together to get change
in this country.

SCHULTZ: When you hear there`s an attack on the middle class, do you
believe that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely. It`s been an attack on the middle
class before Reaganomics, when he came in and started the trickle-down and
it never trickled down. It has not stopped.

SCHULTZ: Great. What are your thoughts, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Better trade.

SCHULTZ: What`s fair trade? Tell me what fair trade is. They just
can`t dump on our market?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right. That`s right. We`ve got to get rid
of the free trade. We`re lost our jobs because of it.

SCHULTZ: You lost your job?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You betcha.

SCHULTZ: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sent them to Mexico.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mexico and Kentucky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Getting rid of the unions.

SCHULTZ: It`s all the attack on labor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.

SCHULTZ: But you see, it`s not just about labor because labor sets
the standard, does it not, for all other workers in America?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s right.

SCHULTZ: What do you think about that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m from Michigan. I`m up here to help them beat
-- beat this bill. I`m from Michigan. Football don`t matter when it comes
to this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, the banksters on Wall Street caused this
economic downturn and they`re taking it out on the victims. We`re the
victims of this. We have people like Mayor Bell, Governor Kasich, want to
take more out of the victims, who are victims of the economic downturn.

SCHULTZ: You know what? If there`s one message I would like our
audience to take tonight from this show, is that debate is healthy. And
when you go out and talk to folks, it`s a lot different than listening to
it or just reading about it. And I do think that if the Republicans would
go out into the Rust Belt and talk to these hard workers and tell them why
the tax breaks are going to, quote, the job creators, when they haven`t
created the jobs?

I can show you the buildings across the street to prove that tax cuts
for the rich don`t work. How about let`s invest it in American workers
like in Toledo, Ohio. And let`s just see over the next ten years if that
works.

Tomorrow night, THE ED SHOW will be in Columbus, Ohio. We`ll see you
then.

Lawrence O`Donnell is next with "THE LAST WORD."

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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