updated 9/29/2011 11:55:26 AM ET 2011-09-29T15:55:26

Guests: Stephen Lynch, John Nichols, Heidi Harris, Bill Press, Jack Reall, Jim Moore

ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED
SHOW tonight from New York.

Congressman Darrell Issa and the Republicans, they want to put the
Post Office out of business.

Now, if they get their way, it won`t just affect your wallet, it could
affect your voice at the ballot box. It`s about voter suppression.

This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R), CALIFORNIA: We are not talking about pay cuts,
but we are talking about retired that are no longer need it.

SCHULTZ (voice-over): Anti-government Republicans are out to destroy
the Postal Service. Congressman Stephen Lynch from Massachusetts has a
bill to save it and he joins me tonight.

(on camera): -- on safety. That`s not what firefighters are telling
me. That`s not what Chief Reall told me tonight.

(voice-over): Andrew Breitbart`s goons tried and failed to ambush me
and the firefighters of Ohio. Of course, now, they`re lying about what we
said. We`ll play the tape and correct the record.

GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I probably
chose a poor word to explain that.

SCHULTZ: Rick Perry is retreating from his tough language. Jim Moore
will fill us in.

And Bill O`Reilly`s crusade to keep the rich from paying their fair
share continues on "The View." You won`t believe what he`s saying now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHULTZ: Great to have you with us tonight, folks.

I can`t let this story go. Chapter number 2, and there will be more.
The second biggest employer in the United States of America is under
attack. No bigger story in the country if we`re talking about jobs because
120,000 postal workers, their jobs are on the chopping blocks, and
Republicans want to end, basically, 235 years of reliable mail service in
America.

Now, delivering the mail -- you know, this really isn`t that easy of a
job. You know, postal workers have to go door to door in small towns and
in big cities, through blazing heat, brutal cold, snowstorms, you name it.

Republicans once shared sacrifice from these folks, postal workers?
But they want Bill O`Reilly to keep every dime he has. I`ll have more on
Bill-O coming up here in just a few moments.

Congressman Darrell Issa is the guy you need to focus on. This guy is
worth $300 million. Does he care about the little guy? Does he care about
the middle classers? No.

This guy, he has introduced the Postal Reform Act of 2011, and he
spoke about his bill a few weeks ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISSA: I`m concerned about the Post Office. It`s going to lose $10
million. A lot of Washingtonian think tanks are saying, OK, we`ll just do
a bailout. We`ll just, you know, fudge the figures. We can`t really keep
doing that.

This is an organization that can be profitable, that can meet all of
its responsibilities. But it`s got to right size its workforce if it`s
going to do it. We`re not talking about pay cuts. But we are talking
about people being tired that are no longer needed because you and I are e
mailing a lot more than paper mailing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: I`ll tell you what? Here`s pretty sleek and pretty clever.

Here`s the rest of the story -- you see, Issa is engaged in basically
a smear campaign aimed at one of the nation`s greatest institutions, the
Postal Service. The reason Republicans don`t want the Post Office
delivering your mail is because it works. They want to privatize
everything. That`s their mission. And this is the biggest target in
government.

The Post Office, they`re not looking for a bailout. Please stop using
that word, Congressman. They just want to quit funding 75 years of
pensions in a 10-year window which the Congress passed. It was a law in
2006 in the lame duck session.

The Post Office would have basically, right now, a $1.5 billion
surplus today had that law not been passed.

Now, Issa`s bill would end Saturday delivery and close or consolidate
thousands of Post Offices and processing centers across America. Issa`s
bill would eliminate tens of thousands of middle class union jobs, but he
doesn`t give a damn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISSA: Eighty percent of their costs are human beings, and if you`ve
got too many human beings, you`ll build inefficiency, you`ll use labor
poorly, and that`s what`s been happening, and it`s why we have to get this
right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Too many human beings. We have too many jobs with the
Postal Service. All of a sudden, after 235 years of great service, let`s
just go get `em, even though zero tax dollars go to the Postal Service. He
just doesn`t tell the whole story, does he?

Do you hear that? I mean, Darrell Issa is pro-robot and anti-human
being.

This is nothing more than an effort to nail workers one more time.

The Republican attack on the United States Postal Service will also
have a major impact -- hear me now -- on voting. Millions of Americans
mail in absentee ballots.

Keep in mind voters in Oregon can vote only by mail. And the state of
Washington just passed a law to do the same. This will be a major rural
disadvantage.

Now, in those states, if you could only vote by mail and the mail
service is cut back, can we do some real math here? That`s voter
suppression. People who vote by mail might be forced to go to UPS or
FedEx. Both of those companies line their pockets, Republican, two
Republicans, election after election.

For the last 12 years, FedEx has given 50 percent of their money to
Republicans; UPS has given 53 percent of their political donations to
Republicans.

Let me ask you tonight: do you trust UPS or FedEx to handle your
ballot? Let`s cut right to the chase on this, folks. This is going to
butcher rural America.

What about small businesses? I thought the Republicans were all about
helping out small business. I thought the Republicans were going to care
about the elderly. Oh, yes, this will affect the elderly.

Any of you seniors out there get your medications through the mail?
Well, if you`re in a small town, you`re going to have to pay a heck of a
lot more, because, you see, the Postal Service delivers in 25 percent of
America where these private services won`t go. Yes, that`s right. The
Postal Service helps UPS and FedEx make money.

And, of course, it`s going to hurt small businesses.

It`s going to hurt journalism in rural America. You`re going to get
the "USA Today" to cover your county commission when it comes -- maybe, a
water issue comes up? Or you`ll have right wing radio -- you`ll have
plenty of that.

But defenders of the truth, where are they going to be? The Postal
Service -- you mean to tell me after 235 years of a successful run to
helping Americans communicate with the truth, all of a sudden, this
Congress back in 2006 is going to decide we`re going to change everything?
No. It`s all about the money, it`s all about going after and attacking
unions, and it`s all about destroying a great institution in this country
that they think they`re going to be able to privatize later on down the
road.

Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question: Will Republicans be successful in killing the Post Office? Text
A for yes, text B for no to 622639. Our blog wide open for you for comment
at Ed.MSNBC.com. We`ll bring you the results later in the show.

Now, what can this Congress do? We`re talking about 125,000 jobs that
are on the chopping block right now. You heard Issa. He thinks it`s a
human problem.

Joining me now is Congressman Stephen Lynch of Massachusetts.
Congressman Lynch has introduced H.R. 1351 to eliminate the 75-year pension
obligation.

Congressman, good to have you with us tonight.

REP. STEPHEN LYNCH (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Good to be with you, Ed.

SCHULTZ: I want to make sure America gets this story, because I think
it`s part of our infrastructure, I think it`s huge to small business, into
the ag community especially. It`s going to hurt the poor. It`s going to
hurt the disabled. It`s going to hurt seniors.

Is there any way you think your bill is going to be able to pass to
turn this around?

LYNCH: Well, I think it can be part of the solution. We`ve been
meeting. There have been full members of the House, full members of the
Senate, and we`re -- although the elements of an agreement are there, it
doesn`t involve laying off 125,000 hard-working postal workers.

Right now, the federal employee retirement system actually owes the
Post Office about $7 billion, and one of the things that my bill would do
is allow some of that money to be used for a retirement incentive for
workers right now who are eligible for retirement. But because of this
economy and because their housing values are down, because their 401(k)s
have been cut in half, they`ve been hanging on. So, this would allow us to
downsize by attrition, by having voluntary retirements of hundreds of
thousands of these employees --

SCHULTZ: But the financial issue here, Congressman, is that the law
was passed by a lame duck Republican Congress in 2006 before Nancy Pelosi
got her hands on the gavel and the Democrats took over the House. This was
one last shot at the working folk of America in an attempt to destroy the
Post Office.

And they have put a harness on them to fund 75 years` worth of
pensions and health care and do it in a 10-year window. Why don`t we do
that to Wal-Mart? They`re the number one employer in the country. I mean,
what other business has to do this?

LYNCH: There is no other business in America that has to do what the
Post Office is being required to do, which is to prefund their retiree
health care. You`re absolutely right, Ed.

And this is a target using unions here, the postal unions as a target,
and I think that there is a belief, and you`ve hit on it already, there is
a belief that we can privatize the Postal Service. But as you`ve already
noted, there are many rural towns that the Postal Service is the only
entity that delivers in those areas.

SCHULTZ: Well, it would be 25 percent of America if you go by today`s
standards -- 25 percent of America doesn`t get private service. They have
to depend on the Postal Service which, of course, is obligated to be in
those communities. And we`re talking about closing thousands of facilities
across America.

So, this is not only going after collective bargaining rights, but
what about the voter suppression issue? I mean, we`re looking at Oregon
and Washington that vote by mail. This will affect elections, will it not?

LYNCH: Well, there is certainly the trust issue. You know, we see
the Postal Service as being a very trustworthy. Year after year when
Americans are asked what branch of your government or what part of your
government do you have the greatest confidence in and the greatest customer
satisfaction, and the Postal Service comes out on top time and time again.

So I don`t think that people have the same regard for the private
companies that are trying to move into the market.

SCHULTZ: Well, whether they trust them or not, it`s an issue of
access. If you don`t have a private company working in a rural area, how
are these folks going to vote? It`s a disincentive. They`re going to have
to get in their car and drive somewhere and hand it off? I mean, this is
just horrific, I think.

Congressman Lynch, I hope your bill gets support of every Democrat and
the White House. Thank you.

LYNCH: Thank you, Ed.

SCHULTZ: Let`s turn now to John Nichols, Washington correspondent of
`The Nation."

John, what do you think? Is this voter suppression?

JOHN NICHOLS, THE NATION: It is, Ed. In fact, the Senate was alerted
to this in congress several years ago by Senator Ron Wyden and Senator Jeff
Merkley from Oregon who said in a letter, this is a serious problem. When
you cut back the Postal Service, you threaten a whole system that is
structurally in place in Oregon, which, I might add, is a state that
generally votes Democratic for president and sends two Democrats to the
U.S. Senate.

SCHULTZ: So I guess you could say people in rural America could be
getting second-class service, maybe treated like second-class citizens.
It`s going to hurt small business, no doubt.

What about journalism, in your opinion? You`ve worked in small towns
many times in your career. What does this do?

NICHOLS: Well, remember that the Postal Service actually delivers a
lot of small town weeklys through the mail, and there is a slightly lower
rate, and so it makes it easier for the small town weeklies and dailies to
stay in business. So, this is a part of sustaining the network of rural
journalism in this country.

And there`s something else there, too. The Postal Service guarantees
universal service. It gets the mail out to places that are really down,
way down that long country road. If you cut it off, you aren`t just
talking about losing journalism, you`re talking about losing a whole sense
of connection to small towns that could well begin to dry up to an even
greater extent than they already have when you shut their core central
business, which is the Post Office.

SCHULTZ: I want the audience tonight to grab this number: $1.5
billion. Got that number? $1.5 billion. That`s how much money the Postal
Service would have in the bank right now, ready to operate as a surplus, if
they hadn`t had a right wing Congress stick it to them just before Nancy
Pelosi got the gavel in 2007. It was in the lame duck session of the
Congress.

So, if you had gotten this government takeover out of the way, but,
you see, these righties are on a mission to destroy collective bargaining,
they`re on a mission to privatize everything they possibly can, look at the
giving of the companies to the politicians who would be in the service
industry of delivery. It`s very clear to see.

So, here we have a case where a bad law was passed, and now, we have a
chance to pass another law to repeal it which would save 120,000 jobs.
John, where is the White House? Where are the Democrats?

NICHOLS: The president has been too weak on this issue. He`s tried
to walk down the middle and do the sort of arbitrator in chief game.

This is the place where he needs to step up. He should say the United
States has a commitment to its rural communities and also to its urban
communities. Those 3,700 Post Offices that are threatened with closure are
largely in our most rural areas and also in our lowest income inner city
neighborhoods.

SCHULTZ: Yes.

NICHOLS: These are institutions that form a web of connection for
this country. If we break that web, we really shut down the human faith of
government.

And I`ll remind you of one thing, Ed. Every day, postal workers save
lives. It`s not their job, but they knock on a door and somebody doesn`t
answer, they go in and get somebody health care. Postal workers deliver
babies all the time.

SCHULTZ: Great point.

NICHOLS: Human beings going out into our communities.

SCHULTZ: No question about it. John, great to have you with us --
Washington correspondent with "The Nation" magazine, John Nichols, here on
THE ED SHOW.

Remember to answer the question there at the bottom of the screen.
Obviously, we want to know what you think, and tweet us @EdShow.

Coming up: Bill O`Reilly is calling for shared sacrifice, but he
doesn`t want to share his millions. Heidi Harris and Bill Press will
weight on that.

And later, a right wing smear merchant is attacking me and the great
firefighters in Columbus, Ohio. Chief Jack Reall will tell the truth.
I`ll play the tape with commentary. You don`t want to miss it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.

Twitter world going nuts on this one. I guess it`s just our lucky
night because right wing bloviator Andrew Breitbart thinks he got me.

You know, I`m always going to stand up for the middle class and the
working folk, the working class in this middle class in this country -- the
firefighters, the teachers, the wage earners of America. And Ohio Senate
Bill 5 is a very bad piece of legislation and a lot of people in the state
want it gone. That`s why 1.3 million people signed a petition to put it on
the ballot.

Firefighters believe the legislation will hurt their ability to
bargain for safety equipment. And we`re going to tell you why they are
correct.

But Andrew Breitbart says I lied about what`s in this terrible piece
of legislation. He`s wrong. That`s coming up.

But next, Bill O`Reilly has something to say about shared sacrifice.
I can`t wait for this one. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Thanks for staying with us tonight.

Bill O`Reilly prides himself looking out for the folks. When
Republicans went after middle class, O`Reilly thought it was only fair for
some to sacrifice.

Here`s what he had to say about Wisconsin public workers back in
February.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: The solution in bankrupt states is for
workers to agree to some kind of giveback perhaps over a few years. That
way they can look for other jobs in the private sector if they don`t
believe they`re being compensated fairly in the public area. I think that
would be fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Sure. The country is in rough shape, so teachers and
firefighters should just give it up, give back their health benefits, their
bargaining rights and their pay.

But then, just last week, when O`Reilly`s own salary was at stake, he
wasn`t as enthusiastic about giving back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`REILLY: But if you tax achievement, some of the achievers are going
to pack it in. If Barack Obama begins taxing me more than 50 percent,
which is very possible, I don`t know how much longer I`m going to do this.

I like my job, but there comes a point when taxation becomes
oppressive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`REILLY: He`s talking about the so-called Buffett Rule -- part of
President Obama`s proposal that would increase the top tax rate to Clinton
era levels, not 50 percent as O`Reilly claims. The Buffett Rule would
raise taxes on investments to the same level as wages which, by the way, is
a proposal that the overwhelming majority of Americans, the folks, are for.

So, today, on "The View," O`Reilly had a different spin on the matter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

O`REILLY: I`m telling you, the country is in trouble. We owe $14.5
trillion we can`t pay back. Our power is on the decline everywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s the solution?

O`REILLY: The next president has to get in and demand of all of us
sacrifice. We`re all going to have to make sacrifices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: The next president? Why do we have to wait 14 months?

Time to call in Heidi Harris of "The Heidi Harris Radio Show" in Las
Vegas, and Bill Press, host of the nationally syndicated "Bill Press Show."

Great to have both of you with us tonight.

Heidi, turning to President Obama, he`s out there defending workers,
the middle classers. Here he is earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know what, it`s
asking a billionaire to pay the same tax rate as a plumber, makes me a
warrior for the middle class. I`ll wear that charge -- I`ll wear that as a
badge of honor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Where does this leave Republicans, Heidi?

HEIDI HARRIS, THE HEIDI HARRIS SHOW: That`s ridiculous, Bill, because
a lot of that they`re talking about the investment money that they make and
things like that. A plumber is paying less money percentagewise on his
income than a billionaire is on his income. It`s apples and oranges. It`s
not exactly the same thing.

And ultimately, like I said before to you, if I tax you more money,
it`s not going to help the budget deficit. You can tax all these people to
death if you want to, and you and I both know it`s going to go into that
big fat pot of the treasury and it`s going to disappear. It`s not going to
pay off our debt.

And then we`re going to stick it to the golden goose who is going to
give me a job or give me a raise. That doesn`t solve our problems.

SCHULTZ: Bill Press, have at it.

BILL PRESS, "THE BILL PRESS SHOW": Well, first of all, Bill O`Reilly
says the next president has to talk about shared sacrifice. This president
has been talking about shared sacrifice for the last three years and
Republicans are rejecting it. You know?

And the other thing is, I got to tell you, Ed, the best argument that
I`ve heard so far from getting rid of those Bush tax cuts is Bill O`Reilly
promising that if we do, he`ll pack it in. That`s a win-win for me.

SCHULTZ: But, Bill, hasn`t he done a flip-flop? I mean, the guy that
says he does the no spin zone, he`s flipping around. Why do we have to
wait 14 months?

PRESS: Totally, it`s a huge flip-flop, but you know why. He thinks
we`re too dumb to know what he says at night and what he says on "The
View." He doesn`t think we`re going to connect the two, number one.

Number two, he went on "The View" today, he was trying to be nice,
because last time he was on, Whoopi Goldberg and Joy Behar walked out on
him.

So, you know, yes. Look, it`s crazy, Ed. We`re talking about 50
percent. We`re talking about fair share. Bill O`Reilly should pay the
same rate on his taxes as the person he buys his falafels from pays on her
pay.

SCHULTZ: Heidi, what do you think of shared sacrifice? What do you
make of O`Reilly`s flip like that?

HARRIS: I don`t know what it means. I don`t know what shared
sacrifice means. And I don`t know what fair share means.

SCHULTZ: I`ll tell you.

HARRIS: When I talk about it on my radio show, I ask people, give me
a number, Bill Press. Give me a number. Give me a percentage where Ed
Schultz should pay more than I should, right, if he makes more money that I
do? Give me a number.

PRESS: Let me put it this way, I give something, Heidi. Here`s a
number, right? Pay close attention. 2009, 238,000 families had income of
over $1 million -- 25 percent of them paid less than 5 percent. Bill
O`Reilly`s driver, his barber, the guy who cuts his grass, again, the
person he buys his falafels from, they pay more than 15 percent.

So whatever it is, let`s have a fair, fair rate and everybody share in
that sacrifice. That`s all we`re asking.

HARRIS: I agree. Ten percent across the board for everybody. But
look at the people.

PRESS: I didn`t say 10 percent.

HARRIS: We have almost half this country who doesn`t pay taxes at
all, income taxes, because they get the earned income tax credit. How is
that fair to me?

I don`t want to hear, oh, they don`t make that much money, they can`t
afford to pay. They aren`t paying their fair share of squat. I`m picking
up the balance and I can`t afford that.

PRESS: But the people at the bottom are not the ones with the money,
Heidi. It`s the people at the top --

HARRIS: It doesn`t matter. I want their fair share.

PRESS: No, no, it does matter. It does matter, because a lot of that
is capital gains money. They don`t sweat, they don`t work a day in their
life, and they`re getting all this money from tax income and it`s taxed at
15 percent. That is obscene.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHULTZ: Heidi, let me give you a number that works. It`s proven to
work. It took the country into surpluses before we went into war, and that
was 39.5 percent. Why wouldn`t you be willing to go back to 39.5 percent,
the old Clinton rates when we had economic success for the good of the
country?

It would hit only -- well, less than 2 percent of the American people.
I mean, 98 percent of the American people wouldn`t be touched by this. I
mean, why is it that the Republican Party and you conservative talkers
constantly think it`s terribly unfair to go to 39.5 percent?

HARRIS: It`s terribly unfair for me, for people to get the earned
income tax credit and pay no income tax.

SCHULTZ: That`s not the question.

(CROSSTALK)

HARRIS: Everybody should pay -- you said fair share.

SCHULTZ: You asked for a rate, I gave you a rate. You asked for a
rate, I gave you a rate. Why can`t you live with it?

HARRIS: I will go with the rate that everybody pays, 10 percent, 12
percent, 15 percent, whatever. Thirty-nine percent, then everybody is
paying it, even the low income people. No reason they should get a free
pass.

PRESS: Heidi, read the Bible. It`s a parable of the talents. The
more God gives you --

HARRIS: Read the Bible, I see.

PRESS: -- the more you should be willing to give back, Heidi. It`s
in the Bible.

HARRIS: You know what the Bible said, Bill? The Bible said the man
who doesn`t work --

(CROSSTALK)

SCHULTZ: Heidi Harris, Bill Press, great to have both of you with us
here tonight. Thanks so much. Good discussion.

Coming up, Herman Cain says African-American voters are brainwashed
into voting for Democrats. He`s going in the zone.

Bridges all over the United States are in danger of falling apart.
Republicans say raising taxes won`t help repair them or get people back to
work. Nearly three dozen economists -- well, they disagree. That`s coming
up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: It`s Psycho Talk tonight. Pizza candidate pizza man Herman
Cain has a new theory about why African-Americans tend to vote for
Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HERMAN CAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Many African-Americans have
been brainwashed into not being open minded, not even considering a
conservative point of view. I have received some of that same vitriol
simply because I am running for the Republican nomination as a
conservative.

So it`s just brainwashing and people not being open minded, pure and
simple.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Come on, Herman. It`s not very presidential to say a huge
group of voters can`t think for themselves. Here are a few reasons,
serious reasons, why African-Americans might choose Democratic candidates
without being brainwashed.

Almost 17 percent of African-Americans are unemployed. Democrats are
in favor of extending unemployment benefits. Republicans say unemployment
benefits just make people lazy.

Democrats are in favor of affirmative action. Republicans call it
reverse discrimination.

Republicans are actively working against the best interests of many
African-Americans. And they`re not hiding their agenda a bit. For
instance, Florida Governor Rick Scott cut funding to historically black
colleges in his state. Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour refused to
condemn a license plate honoring a KKK leader.

Paul LePage, governor of Maine, told the NAACP to, quote, "kiss my
butt." And don`t get me started on the racist ramblings of the head of the
party, or mouth piece, Rush Limbaugh. I think African-Americans know
exactly why and what they`re voting for when it comes time to go into the
ballot box.

And for Herman Cain to say they have been brainwashed into picking the
Democratic candidates is brainless Psycho Talk.

Coming up, one of Breitbart`s lackeys attempts to ambush me in Ohio.
They say I`m lying. We`ll set the record straight.

And Governor Rick Perry`s poll numbers drop after last week`s debate.
And he is trying to run from his statement that some fellow Republicans are
heartless. Well, they are. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Back to THE ED SHOW. Thanks for watching. A couple of
weeks ago, we went to Columbus, Ohio. Wonderful town, middle America. We
did a show and we stood with firefighters against the union busting bill
Senate Bill 5, which is now issue 2. It`s on the ballot for November 8th
in Ohio.

Now after the show, one of Andrew Breitbart`s lackeys ambushed me. It
was not a scheduled interview, just came up and started talking. He
challenged me on the fact that the legislation hurts firefighters` ability
to negotiate on safety issues. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you say to proponents of the bill who
claim that the bill actually does give the right to bargain on safety to
unions?

SCHULTZ: There is so much loose language in this bill. It gives the
lawmakers the upper hand in negotiations. The whole point of this is that
they wanted to take away what workers already have. They want to leave the
middle class even further. And they wanted to discourage the rights of
people to go join a labor union.

And it`s wrong. It`s morally wrong. It`s against everything this
country was ever founded on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the bill, under Section 41-1708, says that
unions actually do have the right to bargain on safety, which the Democrat
bill of 1983 --

SCHULTZ: Bargain on safety. That`s not what the firefighters are
telling me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: I stand by everything you just heard me say on that
videotape. But Breitbart and his goon squad are trying to make me out to
be a liar. To try and prove that I`m lying to you, Breitbart`s guy tracked
down State Senator Shannon Jones, the author of Senate Bill 5, and asked
for her opinion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE SENATOR SHANNON JONES (R), OHIO: Senate Bill 5, now Issue 2,
the law says that these folks can negotiate on wages, hours, terms and
conditions, same exact language. But we added extra language to the bill,
in an abundance of caution, that expressly says that they can negotiate on
issues of safety equipment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Ed Schultz were here, what would you say to him
regarding that?

JONES: Reading is fundamental. Read the bill. I understand the heat
and hyperbole, but I like to -- I prefer to deal in the facts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: She likes to deal in facts. So here are a few of them.
Republicans are right that the bill mentions safety equipment. That`s the
clause on the screen right there.

But here`s the problem. That clause is just window dressing. What
Breitbart and the anti-union Republicans don`t want you to know about is
section 41-17.14 of the bill. This section outlines what happens if there
is a disagreement in the collective bargaining process.

You see, it takes away the arbitration rights of firefighters asking
for things like additional safety equipment or getting additional
firefighters. Right now, if firefighters and lawmakers have a disagreement
on those things, they go to a neutral third party to reach an agreement.

In Senate Bill 5, those rights are taken away and the lawmakers -- the
lawmakers -- have the final say. So firefighters and police officers can
bargain all they want for safety equipment. But if legislators don`t think
it`s directly related to personal safety, they`re not going to get it.

People like Shannon Jones and Breitbart want you to think that Senate
Bill 5 makes firefighters safer. The people going into the burning
buildings for a living are telling me that it does not. And from the facts
we just laid out, I`m definitely siding with the firefighters on this one.

Jack Reall is the president of the Columbus Professional Firefighters
Union, Local 67. Jack was with me at the show that we did in Columbus,
Ohio, a few weeks ago. He is also a target of the Breitbart smear
campaign.

Jack, explain -- good to have you with us tonight. Explain to the
anti-union activists why taking away your right to arbitration hurts your
ability to keep firefighters safe?

JACK REALL, COLUMBUS PROFESSINOAL FIREFIGHTERS ASSOCIATION: Well,
first off, thanks, Ed, for having me. But the big part of this is if we
come to a disagreement about what is safety equipment or what constitutes
safety equipment, what it boils down to is the employers` opinion trumps
that of the union`s.

So if I go into negotiations and I want to negotiate about bullet-
proof vests, which our firefighters are issued here in Columbus, and the
city decides they don`t want to do that, all they have to say is that`s not
primary safety equipment. Or that`s not -- that`s a tool. That`s not part
of your safety equipment.

And their opinion trumps mine. And there is no third party that can
look at it and say, well, this doesn`t make sense. What it boils down to
is I`m fighting an uphill battle here, and one that I really can`t win. As
one of our legislators said, it`s heads I win, tails you lose. That`s
really the problem here.

There is a lot of words in Senate Bill 5 that add additional language.
In fact, there are 144,000 words in Senate Bill 5 on the over 400 pages.
But a lot of it deals with exemptions. It deals with exceptions to what we
currently have.

SCHULTZ: Breitbart`s goon squad also tried to paint you as a liar in
the same video. Here`s what they edited together. I want you to see it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REALL: That lieutenant sitting in the seat next to you, going in to
the fire with you, has no right to bargain for his safety, his (INAUDIBLE),
his safety equipment. And that is (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Explain why you`re right and they`re wrong.

REALL: Well, I`m right, because as you can see from the video -- they
did a great job editing it. But they forgot to take out the first part,
which was the lieutenant sitting in the seat next to you. In the Senate
Bill 5 language that was passed by the House and is before voters as Issue
2, it removes the right of any supervisor to be in a bargaining unit or
have a bargaining agreement.

That means lieutenants, captains and battalion chiefs in the fire
department have no right to bargain for anything. So all those things that
Shannon Jones talks about, the reading is fundamental, what it comes down
to is the devil is in the details. And the fact is lieutenants, captains,
battalion chiefs, the guys that go into the fires with the firefighters,
will not be able to bargain about safety equipment, staffing or any other
safety issues. That`s exactly what was said.

SCHULTZ: The legislator who wrote this bill, Shannon Jones, says
Senate Bill 5 will make your job safer. We asked the senator from Ohio,
Senator Jones, to come on this program tonight. And of course, she
declined. We made the offer. She didn`t want to come on. Is she correct
when she says this bill is going to make your job safer?

REALL: Absolutely not. I`ve been at this job longer than Senator
Jones has been thinking about running for politics. I know what makes us
safe, and she`s not it. And her bill is not it.

I`ll be happy to sit down and debate this with her somewhere, anywhere
in the state of Ohio. But the fact of the matter is, it will not make
firefighters safer. We`re not going to give up the integrity we built with
the public over something that`s going to be shady like this. We know it`s
not going to be safe. And that`s why firefighters are scared.

When you make firefighters scared, that`s a concern.

SCHULTZ: And I`m not going to take the bait. Breitbart, if you`re
watching, no, I`m not going to ask you to come on this program, because
you`re not the story. The story is Senator Jones, who says that this
firefighter and his colleagues are going to be safer. And Jack Reall of
the Columbus, Ohio, Professional Firefighters says that she`s not telling
the truth.

That`s the story. That`s why it`s on the ballot on November 8th.
Jack, great to have you with us. Looking forward to coming back and
joining the fight with you in Columbus, Ohio. Appreciate your time
tonight.

REALL: Thank you, Ed. See you then.

SCHULTZ: You bet. The president`s jobs plan calls for some sacrifice
by the ultra rich. We already know the American people agree with him.
Now we know leading economists are on board as well. More on that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Let`s talk about Rick Perry of Texas. He is running proudly
on a record of job creation as the governor of the great state of Texas.
But at a campaign stop in Iowa today, Perry`s wife Anita -- and she`s a
great lady, but she kind of gave away a dirty little secret about her
husband`s role as a job creator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANITA PERRY, WIFE OF GOV. RICK PERRY: We have 1,500 people moving to
Texas every day to find a job. I`m not going to tell you they`re all high-
paying jobs, but they`re jobs, even if they`re minimum wage jobs. And
that`s what people are hungry for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Oops. Her description of the Texas work force sounds a lot
different than the way her husband described the Texas miracle to Brian
Williams.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: The counter-argument to that is the
number of low-wage jobs, and the fact that unemployment is better in over
half the states of the union than it is right now in Texas.

GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, the first part
of that comment is incorrect, because 95 percent of all the jobs that we
have created have been above minimum wage.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Sounds like Mrs. Perry forgot to read the campaign talking
points and decided to go with the truth instead. It`s not the only
headache for Rick Perry today. His latest flip-flop would make Mitt Romney
blush quite a bit. That`s coming up next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: In my Playbook tonight, Republicans continue to bash
President Obama`s jobs plan. They`re calling it a second stimulus. Mitch
McConnell says it`s not serious. House Speaker John Boehner said it will
not help the economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE SPEAKER: The president`s proposals
are a poor substitute for the pro-growth policies that are needed to remove
barriers to job creation in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Republicans say you can`t tax the wealthy and create jobs at
the same time. Well, there`s a new report out there that says Republicans
-- that they are very, very wrong on this issue. "President Barack Obama`s
447 billion dollar jobs plan would help avoid a return to recession by
maintaining growth and pushing down the unemployment rate next year,"
according to economists surveyed by "Bloomberg News."

The survey of 34 economists says the American Jobs Act will increase
the country`s gross domestic product by 0.6 percent. It will add or keep
275,000 workers on payrolls. And it will lower the unemployment rate by
0.2 percent in 2012. All good stuff.

All of these factors will help prevent a double dip recession. So
while the president criss-crosses the country making the pitch for his jobs
bill, Republicans are telling voters they would rather keep taxes low for
millionaires than pass a bill to help the economy.

There is the overwhelming support from voters for taxing those who
make more than a million dollars a year at a rate equal to everyone else.
That includes tax on income, tax on investments.

But take a look at this. Even Republicans agree with higher taxes on
the rich; 66 percent of Republicans want the wealthiest Americans to pay
more compared to 17 percent? And a majority of the anti-tax Tea Party
members, well, look at this, they think the same way.

They want higher taxes on the rich by a margin of 52 percent to 29
percent. The American people agree with this plan. Economists agree with
this plan. And the Republicans? They know it. Stay strong, Mr.
President. The people are with you on this.

Chris Christie goes after Rick Perry. And now Rick Perry is changing
his tune. We`ll ask Jim Moore why Perry seems to be answering to the
governor of New Jersey. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Tonight in our survey, I asked you, will Republicans be
successful in killing the Post Office? Eighteen percent of you said yes;
82 percent of you said no. Well, that 82 percent is good if you connect
with your congressional member and make sure they save the Post Office.

Coming up, Rick Perry`s GOP spotlight is starting to fade. Jim Moore
joins me. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Finally tonight, Governor Rick Perry of Texas said
immigration hard liners in his party were heartless. Now he`s trying to
walk it back. Perry made his original comments during last week`s debate.
He talked about those who opposed giving state tuition to children of
illegal immigrants.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: But if you say that we should not educate children who have
come into our state for no other reason than they`ve been brought there by
no fault of their own, I don`t think you have a heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Wow. But Perry has caught a lot of flak from the right wing
of his party. And last night, Governor Chris Christie went after him in
his speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: But I do not believe that for
those people who came here illegally, that we should be subsidizing with
taxpayer money through in-state tuition their education. And let me be
very clear, from my perspective, that is not a heartless position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: On MSNBC this morning, a Perry spokesman stood firm. But
Perry himself backtracked during an interview with "Newsmax."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: Well, I probably chose a poor word to explain that. For
people who don`t want their state to be giving tuition to illegal aliens,
illegal immigrants in this country, that`s their call. And I respect that.
And I was -- you know, I was probably a bit over-passionate by using that
word. And it was inappropriate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: None of this appears to be helping Rick Perry. In the
latest poll, Fox poll, he has slipped. Mitt Romney now leads among GOP
primary voters, followed by Perry, then Herman Cain.

Let`s bring in Jim Moore. He is author coming of a book --
forthcoming book, "Adios Mofo, Why Rick Perry will Make America Miss George
W. Bush."

Let`s focus on this heartless comment for a moment. Why didn`t he
walk it back sooner? It wasn`t until Governor Christie got after him in a
speech last night that he turned the tide on it. Is he afraid of Christie?

JIM MOORE, "HUFFINGTON POST": No, but he is afraid of offending the
people who might be attracted to Christie as a candidate. I think the news
that everybody missed in the media here is this is the first time, in a 27-
year public career, that Rick Perry has apologized for anything.

And of course, people who control the primary process, you can`t have
a heart and offer health care, as Romney did in Massachusetts. And you
can`t have a heart and offer tuition to kids in the state of Texas if
they`re children of illegal aliens.

But one thing I want to make really clear. This is not a subsidy.
These kids are getting in-state tuition. They`ve lived here for three
years. If you`re an out of state student and you come here and you live
here for a year and pay taxes, you`re getting the same tuition that these
children are getting, who are here because their parents are here.

This is not a subsidy. It`s simply fairness.

SCHULTZ: Sounds to me like Governor Perry is just having a hard time
explaining that. He`s not a professional wordsmith. There`s no question
about that. What about this poll? A month ago, he was ahead. Now he`s
not.

MOORE: I think -- again, it`s the softness. It`s the fluctuation
that occurs this early in the primary process. Rick has stumbled, as
everybody knows. And people are looking around. They`re taking a second
look. Chris Christie apparently believes that indecisiveness is attractive
as a potential presidential candidate.

Again, it`s looking at the field. It`s sizing it up anew. It`s
making second considerations. My argument continues to be the same as it
has been from the beginning, Ed, that I think these people who are soft on
Rick now will turn around and come back to him, because he is their best
choice on those extreme positions that the conservatives in the GOP primary
continue to hold.

SCHULTZ: And I wonder where Chris Christie is going to be if Rick
Perry does get the nomination. Will he be so critical of someone in his
own party? Jim Moore, always a pleasure. That`s THE ED SHOW. I`m Ed
Schultz. "THE LAST WORD" with Lawrence O`Donnell starts right now. We`ll
see you back here tomorrow night.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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