Guests: Franco Harris, John Feinstein, Matthew Mangino, Tim Wise, B.J.
Schecter, Mike Wise, Jim Moore, Melissa Rakestraw
ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening, Americans. And welcome to THE ED
SHOW, tonight live from Washington, D.C.
NBC News is reporting Joe Paterno has hired a criminal defense
attorney. Agonizing questions surround the Penn State ordeal. President
Spanier and the former head coach, they are out -- I don`t think Penn State
has done enough.
Rick Perry on a media tour, trying to salvage his intelligence. I
definitely don`t think that he`s done enough.
This is THE ED SHOW -- let`s get to work.
JOE PATERNO, FORMER PENN STATE FOOTBALL HEAD COACH: I`m out of it
maybe now. Phone call put me out of it. But we`ll go from there.
SCHULTZ (voice-over): The Penn State sexual abuse scandal continues
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there are more victims out there or witnesses
out there, please come forward.
SCHULTZ: Former Penn State player and NFL Hall of Famer Franco Harris
is defending his old coach.
FRANCO HARRIS, FORMER PENN STATE PLAYER: I`m defending Joe Paterno,
not Jerry Sandusky.
SCHULTZ: Tonight, Franco Harris joins me exclusively.
GOV. RICK PERRY (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I would -- I would do
away with the Education, the -- Commerce. And let`s see. I can`t. The
third one I can`t. Sorry. Oops.
SCHULTZ: The Perry campaign is on life support, and the candidate is
flooding the airwaves.
PERRY: I stepped in it last night.
I stepped in it.
I stepped in it last night. That`s for sure.
SCHULTZ: I`ll ask political analyst Jim Moore if it`s time to say
adios to the Perry campaign.
REP. JOE WALSH (R), ILLINOIS: There are already mechanisms in place -
- you know what? This pisses me off.
SCHULTZ: The victim of Joe Walsh`s rude outburst is a letter carrier
for the postal service.
WALSH: I`m tired of hearing that crap.
SCHULTZ: Tonight, she gets her chance to respond.
SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight, folks. Thanks for
Joe Paterno is no longer the head football coach at Penn State
following more information about the child sexual abuse scandal involving
his former assistant coach, Jerry Sandusky. But with many aspects of the
scandal still unresolved, the game will go on this Saturday.
Last night, the board of trustees fired Paterno and university
president, Graham Spanier, effective immediately. Today, Paterno has hired
a criminal defense attorney. The story continues.
Paterno and his wife greeted supporters outside his home moments after
he received a phone call informing him of his termination last night.
Angry Penn State students took to the streets of State College,
Pennsylvania. Police reported acts of violence and assaults on journalists
and law enforcement officers.
"The New York Times" quotes one student, Paul Howard, as saying, "Of
course we`re going to riot. What do you expect when they tell us at 10:00
that they fired our football coach?"
A mob of students overturned a television news van. The video, this
video, was captured on a camera phone.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
SCHULTZ: Not all of Joe Paterno`s supporters resorted to violence.
Many current and former Penn State graduates said the firing was a rush to
Franco Harris, NFL Hall of Famer and former player under Joe Paterno,
was outspoken with his disapproval.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARRIS: There`s a lot of outrage at Penn State because of the firing
of Joe Paterno. I`m upset at the Penn State board for the firing of Joe
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: We will talk with Mr. Harris in just a few moments.
There were other high-profile statements of support for Joe Paterno
today. The Nike Corporation said it has no plans to change the name of the
Joe Paterno Center, a childcare facility at its Oregon headquarters.
But Pennsylvania Senators Pat Toomey and Pat Casey pulled their
support for the nomination of the football coach to receive the
Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Attention is now being turned to assistant football coach Mike
McQueary. McQueary has kept his job despite allegation that he witnessed a
sexual assault by Jerry Sandusky on an 11-year-old boy in 2002 and did not
intervene or report it to police.
The new interim Penn State head football coach, Tom Bradley, said
today that McQueary will remain part of the coaching staff at this
Saturday`s game. But today, an unnamed member of the board of trustees
told "Lehigh Valley Morning Call" newspaper that McQueary will be kept off
the sideline for his own safety.
Pennsylvania Governor Tom Corbett spoke about the firings today during
a news conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TOM CORBETT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: We must keep in mind that when it
comes to the safety of children, there can be no margin for error, no
hesitation to act.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: When he was asked by a reporter if he felt Paterno and the
President Spanier hesitated to act, he said yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CORBETT: I was disappointed in their action actions. I support the
board`s decision. Their actions caused me to not have confidence in their
ability to continue to lead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: The Penn State board was in agreement with the governor,
which is why they fired both men last night.
But make no mistake: the board was also buying itself some time to get
ahead of this story. And it`s now time I think for the next move. They
need to show the country how Penn State will make restitution to the
victims and everyone this scandal has affected.
Now, I believe the university needs to make a big statement by
canceling the last three football games of the season. You know, people in
our society, they get fired all the time. But what about the university?
If Penn State won`t cancel the game, school officials need to come out
and be honest. They need to say it`s more important for them to make money
than it is to rectify terrible acts of wrongdoing.
The board needs to get back together in another meeting and make the
next call. The football seasons should be over at Penn State.
Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think.
Tonight`s question: should Penn State football cancel the rest of its
season and decline any bid to a bowl game? Text A for yes, text B for no
to 622639. You can go to our blog and make a comment at Ed.MSNBC.com.
We`ll bring you the results later on in the show.
Lots of opinions and lots of hard feelings surrounding all of this and
a tremendous amount of sadness.
Joining me on the phone is now former NFL -- NFL Hall of Famer Franco
Harris and former player for Joe Paterno. He is now the chairman of the
Pittsburgh Promise, an education charity.
Mr. Harris, good to have you with us tonight. I appreciate your time.
And I certainly understand your loyalty to coach Paterno.
HARRIS (via telephone): Nice to be on -- nice to be on your show.
I`m a big fan.
SCHULTZ: Thank you, sir.
Do you -- do you think that Joe Paterno should still be the head
football coach of Penn State? And tell us why you think that.
HARRIS: Not a question. I think the firing was overreaction by the
board. I`m very disappointed in the board. And when Joe Paterno needed to
have someone support him and have his back, they let him down.
And when they did ask the board yesterday the reason for the firing,
there was really no definite answer. And the only definite answer was for
the interest of the university. So, what is the interest of the
university? And that couldn`t be answered. And I`m very disappointed in
I think that Joe should still be the coach of Penn State. And I also
want to say the way that they fired him, of just having someone hand him a
letter to call somebody and not doing things face to face -- I think that
the board just, like all of their actions yesterday, were very, very
disappointing to me.
There`s no doubt that -- and everybody knows what Joe has meant to
Penn State in his 46 years as head coach. I don`t need to go over that.
And there`s no doubt that he`s an icon and people love to knock down an
icon. And right now there seems to be a frenzy among people that want to
And let me tell you the reason why I feel that he shouldn`t have been
fired. First of all, nothing has been proved. And everybody gets -- you
know, says, well, he didn`t do enough, he should have done more.
Well, when you look at what happened -- and I really try to go through
the scenario myself. That in 1998 there was allegations against Jerry and
Jerry Sandusky was a football coach under Joe Paterno. When that happened
in 1998 during the football program, those allegations went all the way to
the D.A. and to the local police.
In 2002, Jerry Sandusky was no longer with the football program and no
longer under Penn State. When allegations happened again, Joe Paterno took
it to his -- now, this time it was not a football program. This time it
was a university problem. Joe took it to Tim Curley and Schultz.
SCHULTZ: So you think he did enough. I get that. And --
HARRIS: And Tim Curley and Schultz did not do their job.
HARRIS: And people are saying because they didn`t do their job, Joe
should have baby-sated them and done the job for them.
HARRIS: Now, Joe mentioned that he feels he could have done more, but
I feel he says that because Joe`s not one to really knock people. The
reason why he could have done more is --
HARRIS: -- he feels bad they didn`t do their job.
SCHULTZ: Mr. Harris, I`ve got to point out to you that Joe Paterno
was told by his former quarterback that he had witnessed this sexual act in
the shower at the facility at Penn State. Mr. Paterno never went to law
enforcement. That is what is in question tonight.
And one other thing -- I`d like to ask you. Obviously, McQueary, who
played quarterback for Paterno, quarterbacks and coaches certainly have a
special friendship. And Paterno in the grand jury report stated that
McQueary went to his house the next day and said that he was very upset.
Why didn`t Paterno -- and let me ask you. Is it in Joe Paterno`s
personality to go confront Sandusky with this information? What do you
think of that?
HARRIS: This was a university problem.
HARRIS: And Joe respected Tim Curley and Schultz.
HARRIS: He went to them thinking that they would do their job. And
they didn`t do their job. And everybody`s now blaming Joe. And that`s
what I don`t understand.
SCHULTZ: Franco Harris, great to have you with us tonight. I
appreciate your time.
Let`s turn now to sports commentator and writer John Feinstein, author
of the upcoming book "One on One."
I find it hard to believe that a former player would go to Joe Paterno
and say, coach, this is what I saw, number one, he just passed it on to the
A.D. and another administrator and didn`t report it to the police, didn`t
understand the severity of it.
As a journalist, what`s the next move?
JOHN FEINSTEIN, AUTHOR, "ONE ON ONE": Well, I think you`re 100
percent right that when Mike McQueary went to Joe Paterno`s house that day,
that Joe Paterno should have made two phone calls. One should have been to
Graham Spanier, the president, saying we`ve got a big problem. And the
second should have been to the police.
Now, having said that, even if you want to say it was okay to call Tim
Curley, the athletic director, and put it in his hands, the fact is he
never followed up. He never went back and said, Tim, what`s going on? Why
haven`t I heard from the police? Why hasn`t mike heard from the police?
You can`t go halfway on something like this. And I know Joe Paterno
has said, well, Mike McQueary didn`t lay out the details to me the way he
laid them out to the grand jury. Ed, how much detail do you need? He saw
a 10-year-old boy naked in a shower with a grown man. You don`t need any
more detail than that.
SCHULTZ: Well, let`s talk about this incident that took place of
victim number 6. The mother of victim number 6 had a conversation with
Jerry Sandusky, two conversations, in May of 1998, on May 13th and May
19th. Detectives were listening. Jerry Sandusky admitted to showering
with the boys.
The follow-up by one of the detectives at State College, Pennsylvania,
university police, was done on June 1st of `98, just a few weeks later.
And he was told, "Jerry, don`t shower with the kids anymore." And he says,
"OK, I won`t do it."
Is this the extent of their investigation? So when people say that he
was exonerated or investigated, this was the extent of it.
SCHULTZ: And just the appearance is that the university, we just
can`t take down Joe Paterno`s football program. Your thoughts.
FEINSTEIN: Well, that`s the problem not just at Penn State, but at so
many schools, where football is bigger than school. Joe Paterno is Penn
State for a lot of very positive reasons. Not only because he won more
games than any Division I coach but also because his players did graduate
and he did do right by them and he did care about them.
But he didn`t care enough about these children who were victimized by
his former coach, who was also a close friend of his.
SCHULTZ: The grand jury report is graphic and it`s gut-wrenching.
And another part of the grand jury report also says that janitors were
afraid to come forward and say anything for fear of losing their job.
SCHULTZ: There seems to be an atmosphere around Penn State, hey, not
us, can`t happen here.
FEINSTEIN: Well, absolute power can corrupt absolutely. As we know.
It`s a cliche for a reason.
And that -- nobody at Penn State could take on Joe Paterno. In 2004,
the president of the school went to his house to suggest he retire, and Joe
Paterno threw him out of the house. So, who`s in charge? We know who was
And I`m a big fan of Joe Paterno`s, by the way.
SCHULTZ: Who isn`t?
FEINSTEIN: For what he did for 46 years.
SCHULTZ: Impeccable program. Can`t beat it.
FEINSTEIN: The signature program of what was right about college
football when so much has been wrong. To me, he and Dean Smith, the North
Carolina basketball coach, are the two iconic figures of the last 50 years
in college athletics for the right reasons.
And yet, this is going to be in the first sentence of his legacy
forever. It has to be.
SCHULTZ: John, as a sports journalist your curiosity. Where`s the
next story? Where does it take you?
FEINSTEIN: Well, I think there are two separate stories here.
There`s the crime that was committed against these young men -- or these
boys who are now in most cases young men. And that has to play out in the
courts. But I`d like to see -- you suggested Penn State maybe canceling
SCHULTZ: I think they`ve got to do something here.
FEINSTEIN: Here`s what I think they should do. Play the games but
take 50 percent of the money that you make from these games -- excuse me --
and from the bowl game. And turn them over to some group that works with
kids who`ve been abused sexually.
SCHULTZ: You see, the university --
FEINSTEIN: Excuse me.
SCHULTZ: The university can still gain here. They could win the next
three games. They could go to a bowl and make a pile of money and win the
What about the university? Where`s the hurt there? I mean, people
get fired all the time in our society.
SCHULTZ: The university I think has to make a big statement here --
FEINSTEIN: And I think that would be a positive way to do it. I wish
-- a coach suggested to me today that what Joe Paterno should have said
yesterday is he should have resigned on his own, because if he had and not
made the board fire him there wouldn`t have been any rioting last night.
And said, I`m giving $1 million to work toward fighting against this kind
of abuse and I`m going to ask every Penn State alum to give $1.
SCHULTZ: John Feinstein, great you have to with us tonight. Thanks
for your take.
Remember to answer the question there at the bottom of your screen and
share your thoughts on Twitter @EdShow. We want to know what you think.
Legal ramifications for Penn State and its officials keep piling up.
We`ll talk to a former district attorney, Matthew Mangino.
And later, Rick Perry`s epic brain freeze. Will it be "adios mofo"
for the Texas governor after last night`s debate? Jim Moore will join us
Stay with us. We`re right back.
SCHULTZ: Coming up next:
The legal problems facing all involved, especially former football
coach Joe Paterno and Penn State.
On the media tour, Rick Perry is trying to prove he`s not the dullest
knife in the drawer. But how long can he hang on?
And Congressman Joe Walsh lost his cool on this American worker.
Tonight, she tells her side of the story right here on THE ED SHOW.
Stay with us.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.
There are other aspects of the Penn State sexual abuse scandal not
getting much attention. According to the grand jury report, back in March
2002, graduate assistant Mike McQueary saw Jerry Sandusky in the shower of
the main football building sodomizing a boy he estimated to be 10 years
old. This is the main incident we`ve been hearing about.
But according to McQueary`s own account, he saw the act in progress
and apparently did nothing to stop it. He did not intervene, did not
shout. He did not go directly to police.
The next day, McQueary told Joe Paterno. The next day, Paterno met
with school officials Curley and Schultz. Later, the same month, Penn
State President Graham Spanier approved of the minor action taken against
But there is no evidence any of these people tried to identify the 10-
year-old boy. There was apparently no attempt to contact him, get his side
of the story, see if he needed medical attention. The graduate assistant,
Mike McQueary is now an assistant football coach at Penn State who was
hired in 2003.
Joining me now is former district attorney of Lawrence County,
Pennsylvania, Matthew Mangino.
Mr. Mangino, good to have you with us tonight.
MATTHEW MAGINO, FORMER DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Thanks for having me.
SCHULTZ: When the now assistant football coach McQueary witnessed
this, he was 28 years old at the time. And in cases of rape or activity
such as this, is it legally acceptable to witness and not report it
directly to police?
MANGINO: Well, there`s really no legal obligation for just the
average citizen to report a crime that they may have witnessed. In this
particular situation, because he worked for a university he had an
obligation to report it and he followed what his obligation would have
been, which would have been to report it to his immediate supervisor, who
was Joe Paterno.
SCHULTZ: So he would be under no legal obligation whatsoever to
report that he witnessed something that was clearly against the wall --
against the law?
MANGINO: His legal obligation under the mandated reporter law in
Pennsylvania would have been to report that abuse that he observed in the
workplace to his immediate supervisor, which is what he did.
Now, that`s his legal responsibility, Ed. You know, there`s a whole
different responsibility in terms of moral obligation.
MANGINO: Certainly, should he have intervened? Should he have called
the police? There`s a number of things that he could have done. Maybe
most people would have done that.
But from purely a legal perspective he did what he was obligated to do
under the law. And Joe Paterno in turn did what he was obligated to do
under the law. He reported within 48 hours to his immediate supervisor,
the athletic director.
Again, that was the legal obligation.
What`s his moral responsibility? He knows a sexual assault, an adult
against a child, occurred in his locker room. As the head football coach,
should he have taken some other action other than following the mandate of
the law? I certainly think that you or I or most people would have done
something maybe a little bit different.
SCHULTZ: Yes. How serious is the school`s civil liability when an
alleged rapist got nothing more than having the keys of the facility taken
away from him and campus police saying, hey, don`t do this anymore, don`t
shower with the kids, which is what he was told in 1998? What`s the
school`s civil liability in this?
MANGINO: Well, I think that the civil liability`s going to be very
broad here and there are going to be a number of people who are going to
make claims against the university and rightfully so. The university had
an obligation to take some action here to protect young people on their
You know, they invite young people to their campus all the time --
whether it`s sports camps or band camp or academic exercises, there are
young people underage on their campus all the time. They need to know what
that obligation is to report, and they need to take action. And it appears
that they failed to do so in this case.
SCHULTZ: Matthew Mangino, I appreciate your time tonight. Thanks for
joining us so much.
MANGINO: Thank you.
SCHULTZ: More on the Penn State sexual abuse scandal in a moment with
Mike Wise and B.J. Schecter.
Deadbeat Congressman Joe Walsh told a postal worker that he wanted to
eliminate her job. Melissa Rakestraw will explain why the congressman
should lose his government job later on in the show.
Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JERRY SANDUSKY: It`s an opportunity for me, you know, to have been
touched by so many great people who have volunteered their time and energy
and opportunity to see some special young people overcome some challenges
in their life and go on to lead a life of excellence. And it`s grown to
that point now where we`ve really reaped the rewards of a lot of effort.
And it`s an opportunity to throw out a rope to some kids. And if they grab
hold, you know, they can be champions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Absolutely amazing. That was Jerry Sandusky in 2007 talking
about his charity for kids. He is now charged with 40 criminal counts of
sexual abuse of minors.
Welcome back to THE ED SHOW.
Let`s bring in WJFK radio host Mike Wise, and SportsIllustrated.com
executive editor, B.J. Schecter.
Gentlemen, good to have you with us tonight.
Mike, what is so stunning, most journalists have read the grand jury
report. What jumps out at you as absolutely unbelievable in the report?
MIKE WISE, WASHINGTON POST: Well, just that clip you played in the
last few days on my show and in my "Washington Post" column, that turned my
stomach almost more than anything given that I now know about Jerry
I still think the fact that -- and it bothers me that a lot of people
are hiding behind protocol and right channels for Joe Paterno because the
bottom line was Joe Pa oversaw Happy Valley like Mike Krzyzewski oversaw
Duke or John Wooden once oversaw Westwood. He didn`t have a superior. And
if he was told and he didn`t report it to police, certainly he had to go
The fact that -- it`s almost like people were in warped program world,
and they saw Penn State and things like senior day more important than
stealing youth from some of these boys.
SCHULTZ: B.J., what does that say about our society, that coaches and
programs and universities can be so big that people would be intimidated to
go to law enforcement? I find it hard to believe that a 28-year-old man
would not know that it would be the wrong thing to do to screw a 10-year-
old in the shower. I don`t know how else you can say it. What do you
B.J. SCHECTER, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, SI.COM: It`s really sickening when
you think about it. And when you read the grand jury report, you can`t
help but really get a pit in your stomach.
You know, I think what we have to realize here is with great power
comes great responsibility. And so many people have failed in this
instance. We`ve failed the kids. We failed to protect the people that
need protection the most. And Joe Paterno was in a great position of
authority and power. He did so much good over the years for the
university. But in this instance he failed.
Everybody involved with this case failed, from the -- Mike McQueary,
when he first saw it, from Mike McQueary`s father when he didn`t have his
son go to the police to Joe Paterno to Tim Curley to the administrator Gary
Schultz. We failed. Everybody failed here. And that`s why the
consequences are so severe.
SCHULTZ: Gentlemen, my commentary tonight is that I think that Penn
State`s got to do something really big. Cancel the rest of the season.
Forget the bowl opportunity. There`s got to be some restitution and they
have to make a statement that just firing a couple of people isn`t going to
make it right, and then of course having an investigation. Mike, your
WISE: I think at some point you`re right. As more comes out and
people understand the magnitude of this -- this game they`re having
Saturday is a charade. The idea that they`re wearing blue in support of
sexual abuse to children is fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with
what happened here.
Someone said this better than anybody I spoke to. His name was Matt
Packness, former Penn State graduate assistant under Joe Paterno, `87 to
`88. He said, look, I love the guy, he needs to step down. He needs to
step down because once you do this and you`re party to this at all,
essentially you lose the right to claim triumph over anything in your life
and you can`t say anymore that you touched lives, because they all go away
if you let one person touch a children -- a child.
SCHULTZ: Here`s Pennsylvania Governor Tom Corbett today talking about
the student protesters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TOM CORBETT, (R) PENNSYLVANIA: You have a passion? Great. You
want to demonstrate? Great. You want to speak out? Great. Violence is a
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: B.J., let me go so far as to say that I think if the
students had all the facts and were following this story that they wouldn`t
be out in the streets. What do you think?
SCHECTER: You know, it`s really hard to say. I mean, I think it
starts at the top. I mean, look at the reaction of Joe Paterno in this
case. He was almost like a martyr. He came out and he addressed the
students and you know, what should have Joe Paterno done in this situation?
He should have went to the middle of town and said, look, something tragic
has happened here, I`ve lost my job, I can`t come to terms with it now, go
home. But instead he incited a "We are Penn State" chant.
SCHULTZ: And that`s what gets me. He knew. He was told by his
former quarterback what the defensive coordinator, Sandusky, who he had
worked with for years, he knew what he had done in the shower to that kid.
And here`s Joe Paterno coming out saying, well, you know, I lost my job.
By the handbook I guess I did everything I could do for the university.
I`m surprised that he didn`t get it.
WISE: I`m still furious. I`m still furious. I don`t know about you,
B.J. I`m still more furious about anything that they still don`t know the
name of this 10-year-old kid, that at no point was the kid given
consideration in this. And when an attorney general has to come out nine
years later and say, if you`re out there, we`re looking for you -- that`s
SCHULTZ: Under the guise of a charity organization that is supposed
to help kids. Give me a break. B.J., you get the final word.
SCHECTER: Well, you know, I think this is a sad commentary of what
college sports have become. They`ve become so big. And the games
themselves are so riveting and so great so many times.
SCHECTER: But we`re losing what our priorities are. Our priorities
are education and doing what`s right. When the athletic program and a
person like Joe Paterno becomes bigger than anything else in a lot of
people`s minds, we`ve really lost it, and I think we need to get it back.
SCHULTZ: And gentlemen, that is the point of my commentary tonight.
I mean, Penn State, board of trustees, you need to step up and show that
you`re bigger than the game, you`re bigger than the coach, that you`re
going to show some restitution, that there was some real failings within
the system that go back a number of years to allow something like this to
slip through the cracks.
Mike Wise, B.J. Shecter, great to have you with us tonight. Thanks so
Rick Perry`s Michigan meltdown. Is he now Texas toast? He`s on
Letterman tonight. Jim Moore weighs in next.
And Herman Cain bragged about not sexually harassing thousands of
women? What a guy. Here`s some piping hot pizza man "Psycho-talk" coming
up and going to be served. Stay with us.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to "THE ED SHOW." Texas governor Rick Perry
raised $17 million in the first six weeks of his campaign. A super PAC
pledged to spend an additional $55 million on Perry`s behalf. The question
now is, can all that money buy back this moment?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK PERRY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s three agencies of
government when I get there that are gone. Commerce, education and the --
what`s the third one there, let`s see.
RON PAUL, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There are five.
PERRY: Five, OK. Commerce, Education, and the --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: EPA?
PERRY: EPA, there you go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seriously, is the EPA what you are talking about?
PERRY: No, sir. We are talking about the agencies of government --
the EPA needs to be rebuilt. There`s no doubt about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you can`t name the third one?
PERRY: The third agency of government I would do away with the
Education, the Commerce, and let`s see -- I can`t. The third one, I can`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Oops is right. The EPA needs to be rebuilt? I don`t think
the Koch brothers want to hear that. Perry`s televised senior moment at
last night`s CNBC debate prompted an apology tour this morning with Perry
offering just a slew of prepared excuses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERRY: Listen, I stepped in it last night. That`s for sure.
I don`t mind saying clearly that I stepped in it last night.
I think I made an error last night. I stepped in it is what my wife
would have said.
There are so many agencies of government out there we`d like to
As a matter of fact, I imagine there are a lot of Americans that were
like me last night. There were some agencies of the federal government
that they would like to forget.
There are some agencies of government that I would like to forget, and
I certainly forgot one last night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: And the walk of shame didn`t end there. Earlier this
evening Perry went on Letterman. Here`s a portion of the "Top 10 List"
that will air tonight.
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LAST SHOW": Number seven.
PERRY: I thought the debate was tonight.
LETTERMAN: I see. There you go. Well, that happens to everybody.
It was a mix-up, ladies and gentlemen. Sure.
PERRY: Hey, listen, you try concentrating with Mitt Romney smiling at
you. That is one handsome dude.
LETTERMAN: I know. I know exactly what you`re talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Joining me now is MSNBC political analyst and author of the
forthcoming book "Adios Mofo -- Why Rick Perry will make America miss
George W. Bush." Jim Moore, great to have you back with us tonight.
JIM MOORE, AUTHOR, "ADIOS, MOFO": Hey, Ed.
SCHULTZ: I`m sensing this is not a bad political recovery. What do
you think? He did as best as he could in the last 24 hours.
MOORE: I`ve got a beef with you about making me sit through that 53
seconds again. That`s painful to listen to, much less watch.
But you know, they have been responsive. And you know, people are
saying, well, when is he going to drop out and when is it over? And I
think the answer is that when you`re dealing with a guy who lacks the self-
awareness to realize that he doesn`t have the capabilities or the intellect
to be president of the United States, you can`t expect him to possess the
awareness to say I messed up and can`t get out of this thing.
So what`s going to happen is probably he`s going to keep spending
money. They`re probably going to refocus on Iowa. And they did a great
recovery this morning. I mean everything about crisis communications is
you address the issue very fast. You humanize. You make yourself look
real. You correct your problem. As you say down here, you bury your dead
and move your wagons west. He did that fairly effectively.
SCHULTZ: He certainly did. Now, you have said that you thought that
he would get the nomination. In fact, I think you said that he was going
to breeze to it.
SCHULTZ: Do you feel that way now? Or has he made too many mistakes?
Is it "Adios Mofo" for Rick right now? What do you think?
MOORE: Well, I think what`s happened, Ed, is all this guy had to do
was to show up and speak in declarative sentences because he is the ideal
non-Romney candidate. And Romney, as we know, is squishy on social values
for the right-wingers and he`s got this issue of his religion in the south.
All Rick Perry had to do was show up and be acceptable, and he`s managed to
And you would have never created a scenario in which this might have
happened, where he could stumble so many times and in such monumental ways.
Whether he can recover from it or not, I don`t know. He`s not going to go
away as long as people keep giving him money. He`s going to keep running.
And he`s got enough money to hang around a while.
SCHULTZ: Well, he went on FOX earlier today, and he was bragging
about 2,000 people visiting his campaign website, 2,000 people. I mean, if
you`ve got any name recognition at all, you can get that in 15 minutes. I
mean, this guy is just totally not prepared for the national stage. You
agree with me on that?
MOORE: Well, absolutely. He never has been -- there`s no reason
frankly, if you ask me, that he should have ever been governor. And I
don`t understand why he thinks he can be president. But remember, he`s run
this government down here that has been very friendly to business and
SCHULTZ: That matters.
MOORE: And he`s got people writing checks and it makes it possible
SCHULTZ: Fair to say it`s not in his personality to step out of the
race with $17 million and a big PAC that`s committed behind him. He`s on
Letterman tonight. That might mop it up a little bit. And some young
people out there who don`t pay a whole heck of a lot of attention to
debates, they might think you know what, this guy`s not too bad. You never
know how this is going to play out until it`s over. Jim Moore, great to
have you with us tonight. Appreciate your time.
Coming up, Rick Perry`s amnesia wasn`t the only debate disaster last
night. Herman Cain talked about character and integrity right before
taking a sexist shot at Nancy Pelosi. The pizza man`s up next in the
"Zone." Stay with us.
SCHULTZ: And in "Psycho Talk" tonight, Rick Perry`s debate train
wreck saved Herman Cain from a lot of public scrutiny today, because when
the pizza man is forced to talk about anything besides nine-nine-nine the
wheels fall off, like when he tried to answer a question about what he
would do to replace President Obama`s health care plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN CAIN, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s already been written.
We didn`t hear about it in the previous country -- previous Congress
because Princess Nancy sent it to committee and it stayed there. It never
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: For a guy accused of sexual harassment it`s probably not a
good idea to make such a condescending remark about the first female
speaker of the House. But his campaign reinforced the "Princess Nancy"
remark by tweeting it. And it got worse for Herman Cain when he was asked
about the allegations against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAIN: I value my character and my integrity more than anything else.
And for every one person that comes forward with a false accusation there
are probably -- there are thousands who would say none of that sort of
activity ever came from Herman Cain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: All right, so here`s the logic. So Herman Cain wants us to
forget about the women who have accused him of sexual harassment because
he`s managed to control himself around thousands of other women. That`s
like an accused burglar saying, think about all the homes I didn`t invade.
He can get away with it because Republicans, from Rush Limbaugh to
last night`s right-wing debate crowd, are circling the wagons to protect
him. But for Herman Cain to say he`s innocent because the number of women
accusing him of sexual harassment is smaller than the number of women he`s
met is deep dish "Psycho Talk."
Congressman Joe Walsh has been under fire after a tape surfaced of him
screaming at his constituents. But it turns out the most offensive thing
he said was not caught on camera. The postal worker who was there tells us
the dirty details, next. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOE WALSH, (R) ILLINOIS: Don`t blame banks and don`t blame the
marketplace for the mess we`re in right now. I am tired of hearing that
crap. There are already mechanisms in place -- no, you know what, this
pisses me off!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Illinois Congressman Joe Walsh`s recent meet and greet
turned into a meet and scream when Walsh planted his flag on the side of
the banking industry. Walsh says he was just hungry. But hunger doesn`t
excuse a congressman`s ignorance when it comes to the United States postal
service. One of Walsh`s constituents, postal worker Melissa Rakestraw,
called him out on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALSH: If the postal service can`t compete in the marketplace, I am
tired of propping it up. I`m tired of --
MELISSA RAKESTRAW, USPS LETTER CARRIER: The government hasn`t propped
it up at all.
WALSH: You know what?
RAKESTRAW: The government is what`s dragging it down with this
ridiculous pre --
WALSH: I`ll take every little restriction government puts on you,
I`ll get rid of it tomorrow. Go out there and compete. Why wouldn`t you
like that? Why?
RAKESTRAW: As I said before, there`s --
WALSH: Go compete.
RAKESTRAW: There`s a universal delivery --
WALSH: No, no, no, no. Don`t talk --
RAKESTRAW: That has to be provided, a service that has to be provided
to people across our country to help stimulate economies in rural areas,
independent business people, OK? UPS and FedEx is not servicing these
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Melissa is right on the money. But Congressman Walsh
refused to listen to her. Later in an interview Walsh revealed that he
doesn`t care about the postal service.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WALSH: When we talk about creating jobs in this country, Sarah, we`re
not talking about government jobs. We`re talking about private sector
jobs. That`s the point I was trying to get across.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Oh, there you have it. We saw it in Wisconsin, we saw it in
Ohio, and now we`re seeing it on the national level. The Republican Party
thinks public employees are disposable and not worth anything.
Joining me now is Melissa Rakestraw, a letter carrier for the United
States Postal Service and the woman you just saw on the videotape
challenging the congressman. Melissa, great to have you with us tonight.
When I first saw this videotape, I thought, dude, settle down. You`re
talking to the people that maybe put you in office. What was your reaction
when he went off like that?
MELISSA RAKESTRAW: Well, thanks, Ed. My reaction was one of shock.
I was just really surprised that he was so hyperbolic when the conversation
had been very calm and no one was yelling at him. So I was a little taken
aback that he had to get so aggressive and obnoxious with his constituents.
SCHULTZ: Were you a little intimidated there?
RAKESTRAW: No. Actually, I wasn`t. You know, the only thing that
scares me about Joe Walsh is his anti-worker ideologies and his total
disregard for facts.
SCHULTZ: Well, when you talked to him about universal delivery and
his response was baffling to me. He doesn`t understand the post office.
The post office goes places where the private sector doesn`t go. Is that
what you were trying to tell him?
RAKESTRAW: That`s absolutely correct, Ed. The post office, first of
all, was established by the constitution. I know Joe claims to be a big
fan of the constitution. And because of our charter, we are obligated to
serve all the citizens of the United States. And FedEx and UPS don`t do
this. Twenty-five percent of their deliveries are finished by the postal
service. And we also offer much cheaper and more competitive rates than
FedEx and UPS. There`s a lot of people that get prescriptions through the
mail, elderly people. They can`t afford to have these rates go up.
SCHULTZ: I understand Walsh was very blunt with you about public
sector jobs once the cameras stopped rolling. Can you tell us about that
RAKESTRAW: That`s absolutely correct. At the end of the discussion
he came up to me and he was face to face. The camera was either off or it
couldn`t pick up the volume because he was speaking very low just so that I
could hear it. And earlier I had told him if he supports Darrell Issa`s
bill to reform the post office, that 200,000 jobs could be lost, and 20
percent of those employees are veterans. And Mr. Walsh came up to me. He
said, "I do not care about the loss of public sector jobs."
SCHULTZ: There you have it. Melissa Rakestraw, great to have you
with us tonight. You tell a great story.
RAKESTRAW: Thanks a lot.
SCHULTZ: That`s who they are. They`re called Republicans.
That`s "THE ED SHOW." I`m Ed Schultz. Rachel Maddow starts right now
tonight. Good evening, Rachel.
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