>>>
former governor
howard dean
, former
d.c.
mayor
adrian fenty
all back with us at the table. in the ten years since the 9/11
terrorist attacks
the new
york city police
department has turned into one of the nation's most aggressive and sophisticated domestic
intelligence agencies
. the associated press is out just this morning with a monthlong investigation into the
nypd
's intel
division
, exploring its methods and the controversies surrounding it, joining is matt acuso, thanks for being with us.
>>
thanks for having me.
>>
nypd
changed the way it did business after the attacks on
september 11th
. what did you find?
>>
it not only changed the way it did business, it created a very deep connection with the
cia
. they started to -- the
nypd
started to build these
intelligence
programs that really infiltrated muslim communities in ways that if the
federal government
did it would totally go against rules that have been set up to protect
civil liberties
and they did it with this unusual partnership with the
cia
. a very senior
cia
officer was dispatched by
cia director
george tenet
to be his personal representative to the
nypd
and really helped create these
intelligence
-gathering programs, directed the
intelligence gathering
, supervised the
intelligence gathering
and that's relationship that continues today. recently the
cia
sent one of its most senior undercover officers to work out of one police plaza in new
york
as a covert officer.
>>
so, we're talking about former
cia
agents now working within the new
york
police department
, traveling --
>>
they're current
cia
officers.
>>
on the
cia
payroll, working with the new
york
police department
, traveling abroad and using
intelligence
to work in conjunction with the
nypd
. we should point out the new
york
police department
has put out a statement saying the new
york
police department
is doing everything it can to assure that there's not another 9/11 here and more innocent new yorkers are killed by terrorists. we have nothing to apologize for in that regard. that from
nypd
spokesman paul broune. what's the biggest complaint with this program that you found in your investigation?
>>
one of the things that is little known that they do, they have this program called the demographics program. it was described to us by officers involved as they were mapping the human terrain of the city. they were putting undercover officers, ethnic officers, inside
middle eastern
neighborhoods of stocity and their job is to hang out and blend in and look for things that are suspicion. and that could be something as simple as who is looking at radical books in a bookstore and who is looking at
al jazeera
and applaud about a report about an ied in iraq and that could be enough to get you in a report at the
nypd
, they also have informants that they call mosque crawlers who as the name suggest just go to the mosques and are eyes and ears for the
nypd
inside mosques. the
fbi
puts informants in mosques but there's a bar that says there has to be specific information related to
criminal activity
and that bar isn't there at the
nypd
, the
nypd
said it just follows leads, but we've talked to a number of people involved in the mosque crawler program who say we just have them there as our eyes and ears.
>>
how does the
nypd
get away with that, then, if they don't have the legal right to do it as you suggest, how are they getting away with it?
>>
so, there's the
federal laws
that the
federal government
has to apply and then, you know, obviously
nypd
is subject to city and state laws. but what's really interesting here while, you know, the real question of the past decade at the
federal level
has been do we have to give up
civil liberties
in the name of security and that debate has kind of focused on the
fbi
and the
cia
,
warrantless wiretapping
that sort of thing. there hasn't been that kind of debate in new
york
. there isn't the level of oversight on the
nypd
's
intelligence
division
that there is in
washington
on, say, the
cia
or
fbi
. you know, the -- the tactics that they use don't get the kind of scrutiny by the
city council
, and the
federal government
has given the
nypd
about $1.6 billion since 9/11, but there's very little federal oversight when it comes to what exactly the
nypd
is doing as far as
intelligence gathering
.
>>
katty kay
?
>>
during your reporting, did you come across any officers within the
nypd
who had qualms about the legality of this? ever since 9/11 there has been a trend here for people to be prepared to give up
civil liberties
in the name of security, but i was just wondering whether you met people, you know, who knew about the program, within the
police force
who said we're not quite sure if this is really what we're meant to be doing?
>>
there were. it was interesting, there were people who said they felt uncomfortable, but those people didn't tend to be in the -- in the
inner circle
, the people who were directly involved in these programs. i mean, there's a close hold sort of a shudder of secrecy around a lot of what happens. the people who were directly involved, and we talked to a number of them, said almost to a person, look, we need to -- we need to be doing this. i mean, we have to be out in the
muslim community
because that's where the -- that's the community that is, you know, that's sending terrorists to attack us. and they compared it to, like, well, we would map
drug dealing
. we would map murders. the difference is in this instance you're not mapping crimes, you're mapping people. and that's -- that's the difference here. is they're saying it's no different than we would go to where the robberies are, we'd put undercovers there, here they're just saying we're going where the muslims are.
>>
are there any
court cases
pending on this issue? you would think somebody would complain that this is a violation of at least the fourth amendment and who knows what else.
>>
it's interesting because there is a lawsuit, a federal lawsuit, related to the
nypd
intelligence
division
intilltration of anti-war groups ahead of the
republican national convention
in new
york
. but what's unique about this, in order to bring a lawsuit about this, you have to kind of know about it. you have to know that you were -- you were surveilled. and if you don't know, then it's kind of hard to bring standing. i mean, in a lot of ways as we were doing this reporting, i kept going back to the
nsa wiretapping
program and the people who said, well, i'm going to sue about this, and the government says, you can't sue because you don't know if you were wiretapped, and we can't tell you if you were wiretapped because that would, you know, jeopardize
national security
.
>>
are these people being wiretapped? is that one of the things they're doing routinely?
>>
we don't have any information about any sort of wiretapping, you know, blanket wiretapping programs. but we know the
nypd
did push years ago to try to get fisa authority which was, you know, seen at the
justice department
as a real -- a real grab to try to have the ability to do wiretapping. you know, that was unsuccessful, but we didn't uncover any information about that.
>>
adrian fenty
, as mayor of
washington
,
d.c.
, another city that, of course, was attacked on
september 11th
, anything similar to this within the
washington police
department?
>>
you know, we have a much smaller
police department
. 50,000 here in new
york
, 4,000 down in
d.c.
but
d.c.
absolutely has the counterintelligence units, but there's also the
federal government
in
d.c.
, so the
fbi
and
homeland security
is in
d.c.
and in the
d.c.
region is doing probably a lot of the new
york
that this new
york
police department
unit does up here. from what i understand about it, it's essential, because the only way that you're going to know about communication around the new
york region
and what's happening overseas is to be in and around it, and the
federal government
doesn't have the resources. so, you got to give bloomberg and his team a lot of credit for setting this up, for being so aggressive. from what i understand, the
federal government
really relies on the
nypd
to bring back
intelligence
. one thing was interesting was how many threats come against new
york
and
washington
,
d.c.
my
police chief
down in
d.c.
was briefed daily on threats, and they had to follow them and track them to make sure that they didn't escalate into something.
>>
and, matt, how much of this is done because the people of new
york city
say do what you have to do to prevent another
terrorist attack
? i mean, you said sanchez, larry sanchez, went in front of the
federal government
, he was up on
capitol hill
and said we've been given the public tolerance and the luxury to be very aggressive on this topic. they're going to keep going until they're told otherwise, aren't they?
>>
absolutely. and i think -- i think everybody acknowledges new
york
is different. and what, you know, mayor fenty said is absolutely right, i mean,
nobody else
has the --
nobody else
has the resources. no other
police department
has the resources to do what the
nypd
is doing. i mean, i think the question is if this is a model for policing and counterterrorism, well, new
york
isn't the only -- isn't the only threat in the country. why aren't other
police departments
doing this? and what we've seen is there are instances where
police departments
have said, no, we don't want to do that. i mean, you know, in new
york
one of the things they did -- first things they did was said, you know, run me a report of all the pakistani cabdrivers so they could look for people who maybe got their taxi shields fraudulently so that they can maybe turn them into -- use that as leverage to turn them into an inform amendment. in cambridge, massachusetts, the
police chief
told us, yeah, we got a very similar request from
boston pd
for a list of all our somali cabdrivers and we said, no way, we don't do that, unless you have a specific
criminal investigation
or a cause. and in
los angeles
, you know,
bill bratton
, the police commissioner out there, i mean, just got skewered in
2007
for saying i would like to map my
muslim community
just so i know where this is. and
civil rights
groups just, you know, just hit the roof. so, i think, look, i think new
york
is unique. i think they do have a unique background given the -- given 9/11. they certainly have a deep relationship with the
cia
. the
cia
trained a
police detective
at the farm, you know, which is -- i mean, that's an unprecedented thing. so, it's -- they have that. they have 9/11. they have a lot of money. they have a low
crime rate
. these sorts of things are uniquely new
york
.
>>
matt, were there any instances you were given where the demographics unit, where the
intelligence
that are gathered have actually prevented some sort of
terrorist attack
? a specific example of where it had worked?
>>
well, we know that the
intelligence
division
has had successes. you know, the
herald square
plot ahead of the
republican convention
is a perfect example. it didn't show the depth of the program, but, i mean, they used an
undercover officer
living in brooklyn and hanging out and they used an informant who before he was involved in this investigation had been basically a mosque crawler. so, they prevented a -- they prevented a
terrorist attack
on the subway. they got convictions. i mean, there was also an instance where they were able to -- the
intelligence
division
undercover operating in new jersey was key to -- to arresting two people who were on their way to somalia to train for -- for terrorism. so, i mean, no question the
intelligence
division
has had successes and has disrupted -- disrupted plots. i mean, what we were trying to do is say, look, let's have the discussion. let's -- let's be able to have the discussion about what the -- if there are trade-offs for that security, what are they. because i think that discussion has happened in
washington
,
d.c.
, on federal programs, but it hasn't happened in new
york
.
>>
you know, a lot of this is going to be -- depend on the success or failure of this and the backlash if there is some, is going to depend on how the people in power use the authority. the reason the constitutional prohibited -- prohibitions exist and this is on the margins of that is so the government doesn't abuse its power in dealing -- in using this for political reasons, and if they never do that, then this is probably going to fly, i guess. and if they start using it for political reasons, then there will be a problem. but i think this is going to be -- this program is going to be widely supported by the
american people
and certainly even by many muslim-americans. as long as the government doesn't use it to oppress muslims as a group, most
muslim americans
don't want muslim terrorists either in the
united states
.
>>
but, i mean, doesn't that raise the question if that's the case, why don't we give the
fbi
this authority? why do we specifically say the
fbi
can't do this? i mean, the
fbi
certainly has its own checkered history with surveillance programs.
>>
exactly, they have their own checkered history.
>>
so does the
nypd
, in the '60s and '70s they were using the precursor of the
intelligence
division
to spy a anti-war groups. it's a discussion that's been had at the
federal level
, it's not a discussion that's been had at the local level. and this -- the -- making the -- you know, making the wall more porous between what the
cia
can do overseas and domestically is a big aspect here, because if it is something we want from the
cia
, then why is it just happening in new
york
? i mean, why don't we put -- why doesn't the
cia
direct the
intelligence gathering
of every
police department
?
>>
i think it's a really important debate because we have a checkered past of using this information for political reasons as
j. edgar hoover
did and nixon did as president and others.
>>
matt apuzzo, thank you so much. it's a well-researched piece. people can read it at the associated press and draw their own conclusions. thanks a lot.
>>
thanks a lot for having
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