February 12, 2013
Guests: Clint Van Zandt; Mary Ellen O`Toole; Jeff Gardere; Jay Obernoelte
REVEREND AL SHARPTON, MSNBC ANCHOR: Breaking news tonight out of southern
California. I`m Al Sharpton.
Police are closing in on Christopher Dorner, the fugitive ex-Los Angeles
cop sought in three killers. Dorner has barricaded himself in this cabin
in the San Bernardino mountains following a shootout with authorities that
wounded two officers. He`s been on the run for six days.
Joining me now is FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt.
Clint, what can you tell us?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FBI PROFILER: Well, we know that Dorner allegedly hid in
these mountains Al. He was able to break into a cabin. He may have held
one or two people hostage for an extended period of time. He left that
cabin, stole their vehicle, and fled the area. Supposedly one of the
hostages may have been able to dial 911. The authorities saw the vehicle,
made some type of stop of the vehicle. A shootout took place with
authorities. Two officers are shot and down. Dorner was able to make his
way back to a cabin where he`s been barricaded and there are reports of
literally hundreds of rounds fired exchanged between Dorner and the law
enforcement officers that currently surround the cabin.
SHARPTON: Now Clint, we`re awaiting a press conference, live press
conference by the Los Angeles police department. But let me -- let me kind
of recap what you`re telling us. We`re told that he allegedly did a home
invasion on a cabin -- in a cabin. And took some people hostage allegedly.
And at some point, he left, took their car, stole their car, left -- one of
them was able to get to 911 and that is how the police were able to
intercept him in this stolen car allegedly. Is that the story that you`ve
VAN ZANDT: That`s the story I`ve been told, Al. And what makes this more
amazing is that this cabin that he was allegedly holed up in originally
from which he stole the vehicle, that was within eyesight of the command
post that law enforcement used during their entire search of these
mountains. That Dorner was able to not only watch what was going on
perhaps on television, but he could look out his window and see reporters
and law enforcement officers walking back and forth for multiple days.
Until today, he made this daring one might say attempt at escape. He was
confronted. The shootout took place. Two officers have been shot and
down. He abandoned the vehicle, went back to a cabin. I don`t know if --
SHARPTON: Clint, I`m going to have to interrupt you. The news conference
by LAPD is about to start. Let`s go live to Los Angeles.
I have a very small amount of information I can provide to you. From
what`s happening up in San Bernardino county right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: This information is from the San
Bernardino county sheriff`s office. S o, let me put a caveat on it this is
very early preliminary information.
Today, at about 2:20 p.m., San Bernardino sheriffs were on the lookout for
Christopher Dorner up in the Big Bear area. They received a call on a
vehicle in the1200 block above Club View Drive. They responded there.
They received information from the person reporting that the stolen vehicle
was stolen by an individual that appeared to be very similar to Christopher
They immediately conducted a ground and an air search for this vehicle and
they were able to locate it at highway 38 and glass road. The suspect in
the vehicle fled into the forest. Shortly thereafter, this individual
barricaded himself in a cabin there and an exchange of gunfire occurred.
During that exchange, two officers were injured. They`ve been air lifted
to a local hospital. Right now, their condition is unknown. Los Angeles
police department has sent resources out to the San Bernardino County
airport. Our resources are waiting there for authorization from San
Bernardino county sheriffs to assist them.
So, this is a San Bernardino county investigation. This is their lead.
They have the incident command out here. We are there to support them only
That is as much as I have on that particular incident out there. A quick
update on how the search is going from the (INAUDIBLE) and our side. Right
now we have 1,045 clues that our officers are working on. They`re
following up on all those clues. Obviously, some of them are panning out.
obviously, some of them are dead ends. But we`re continuing to do the
search and continuing to work our clues while the events up in the San
Bernardino mountains unfolds. I`ll take a couple of questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Commander, how sure are they?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: We`re not positive. Until this guy is
in custody, two hands in handcuff and in of jail, we`re not going to know
for sure. They said he was similar in appearance. He was up in that area
at one time. So the likelihood is that it`s him, but we can`t say for
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Commander, what kind of resources.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: He holed himself in a cabin with hostages for
several days. Can you confirm that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I can`t confirm the hostage part. I
heard that obviously to immediate sources. We were listening to our
scanner getting most information from the San Bernardino sheriff`s. I
can`t confirm anybody was held hostage at this time. That`s part of San
Bernardino side of investigation that I have nothing to confirm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Commander, what kind of resources are we
talking about? SWAT? Do you have SWAT officers going up there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I can`t give you specifics about what
resources we have up there. We believe this individual may be watching TV
or may have some access to media, so I don`t want to tip what we`ve been
accepting out there. To that end, we have also ask the media that have air
ships in the area, to not have your area in showing live broadcasting,
close-ups of what our SWAT officers with the San Bernardino SWAT officers
are doing up in that area. The reason for that is obviously it will put
our officers at an extreme tactical disadvantage if the suspect knows what
our folks are doing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: What about exchanging gunfire --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I don`t know what the involvement of the
California fish and game was at this time. My understanding at San
Bernardino County sheriffs. That is from their press office, but I don`t
have an update from the California fish and game. I don`t know what their
involvement or is at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Well, everyone is very hopeful this
thing ends without further bloodshed. We hope to take this guy into
custody and we hope that he doesn`t hurt anybody else. We hope none of
these officers will seriously injured which we don`t know at this point.
The best thing for him now would be to surrender and allow us to take him
into custody and he can face the criminal justice system. There`s a
tremendous sense of apprehension amongst our officers here. Concern about
the officers that are up there. And until this guy`s in handcuffs and
until he is in custody, none of the people in our department are going to
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You said you were waiting. What kind of
resources did you send up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I can`t give specifics on what resources
we sent. We sent resources waiting at the airport in SAN BERNARDINO. Now,
we are waiting to be called in by the incident commander if we are needed.
Right now, we haven`t been need. And by the way, that people have been
asking if the chief of police has gone out there. Chief Beck has not
responded out there. He`s still here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I don`t have information about the
vehicle the suspect allegedly took. I`ve seen some videotape from the
media members on that vehicle. I don`t have the information about what
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Commander, if he is watching this, what
message do you have for him right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: If he`s watching this, the message for
him sir, is enough is enough. It`s time to turn yourself in. It`s time to
stop the bloodshed. It`s time to let this event and let this incident be
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Commander, your first priority is to take him
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: Well, obviously, our first priority is
the safety of the community around there. So, I`m sure the San Bernardino
sheriff`s are evacuating people in that area and making sure all residents
are safe and that area is locked down. Once that area is locked down and
all the citizens in that area are safe, then we`ll let the San Bernardino
SWAT team go in there and do what they do best which is to get this guy
hopefully in custody. Hopefully without any further bloodshed.
One more question then I have to go.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: A couple things on that. San Bernardino
county sheriffs are in our jay rick (ph). So, they are embedded with a
team of officers that are all working together to solve this thing. And
they have been there since the beginning.
We also sent one of our assistant chief out there to San Bernardino. He`s
in their command post. So, we are getting realtime updates from him to our
command so we know what`s going on up there. Probably a very good exchange
of information. So we work really well with our law enforcement partners
throughout southern California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE POLICE OFFICER: I don`t know the weapons he had. I know
he had reports of all different kinds of weapons. I`m not sure what he was
using up there in this exchange of gunfire.
That`s all we have time for right now. I will be back out again if
anything big breaks on this, we`ll be back --
SHARPTON: That was the commander at the Los Angeles police department live
giving a briefing to press in Los Angeles.
Let me go back to Clint Van Zandt who is a former FBI profiler.
Clint, you heard the commander, not a lot of new information, but that does
not mean that`s all they know, but that`s all they`re going to say at this
VAN ZANDT: That`s all they`re going to say as that police officer
suggests, they believe probably last week when he was holed up in a cabin
up on the mountain and right now in the cabin that he may well have access
to the media. We know for example that he watches MSNBC, so he could be
watching this right now.
Al, just to take a quick one more time. If he, in fact -- you know, he has
his allegations of racism against the LAPD.
VAN ZANDT: He`s the one that knows the information. And it would be a
loss for him to commit a suicide by cop at this time and die in that hail
of bullets. If he wants to get his point across, if he believes he can
support his allegations, he should lay his weapons down and have his chance
in court to support the allegations that he`s made and that he said
contributed to the death of three people and now the wounding of three
SHARPTON: Well, I agree with you, Clint. And there`s been a history of
problems, tensions, and outright incidents between the LAPD and African-
Americans. I`ve marched out there, dealt with a lot of it. If, in fact,
as this person`s manifesto says, his point was he was treated unfairly or
there is racism or there is some bias involved, clearly, none of us condone
the killing or the reaction if what has been allegedly put at his doorstep
is in fact true. But if that`s his point, then that point would be lost if
he does not come out alive, surrender, lay out his point, and tell his
I join you in calling on that and would help facilitate in any way I could,
in any of us could in him coming in alive and telling his story if he has a
story to tell. If he does not do that, we can only wonder whatever it was
or speculation whether in fact he was using that for other reasons. We
But our appeal if he is watching is whatever happened, he cannot be served
unless he comes in to really deal with this. The bloodshed must stop.
Let me ask you this, Clint. Do you believe based on what we`ve heard and
seen so far that this can be resolved in a way to end bloodshed. If he`s
watching, what confidence should he have that he will not be harmed
especially when we`re being told he has harmed now five people, three of
VAN ZANDT: Well, one thing, Al, is that there are multiple law enforcement
agencies on the scene. Federal, state, local. So this is not going to be
his interpretation perhaps of law enforcement justice where one agency in
his mind the LAPD might kill him. There are so many agencies on scene
right now that if he chose an agency, say for example, the U.S. marshal
service or the local sheriff`s office or the FBI and said he would lay down
his guns and come out and turn himself over to them for his own safety;
that would be arranged.
But Al, there`s been well over 500 shots fired already. He`s going to have
to quit pulling the trigger and start talking if he wants his story to
actually get out. Otherwise, not only does he die in vain, but all the
people that he`s alleged to have killed have simply died at the hands of a
madman instead of someone who`s trying to make in his mind a legitimate
SHARPTON: Well, let me ask you to hold right there, Clint.
Joining me now is NBC`s John Yang who is live in Los Angeles - John.
JOHN YANG, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Rev., what we can tell you now is they still
have Christopher Dorner, the San Bernardino sheriff`s office says they have
him pinned down barricaded in a cabin in the San Bernardino mountains up
near Big Bear Lake.
This all started about 12:20 this afternoon Los Angeles time, about 3:20
east coast time when the sheriff`s department responded to a call of a home
invasion at a cabin. They got there and we were told that a person
matching Dorner`s description had stolen a white pickup truck. An air and
ground search began. Officers from the California Fish and Wildlife
department, we are told, were the first to spot this pickup truck. There
was a confrontation. Both the officers and the person believed to be
Dorner got out of their vehicles, exchanged fire.
Now, we do know at least two officers, we don`t know from which
jurisdiction, at least two officers have been wounded. We don`t know their
conditions. We don`t know how badly they were wounded. But this standoff
continues in the San Bernardino mountains. There has been reports of
gunfire between the two, between officers and Dorner. He has been holed up
in this cabin. Presumably he has television, so he can watch what`s going
on. And as a result we have all been asked to move our helicopters away
from this area. And in fact, the FAA has put in flight restrictions over
SHARPTON: Now, let me ask you, John. Again, we`re not positive that it
is, in fact, Dorner. We`re going by the fact that those in the house and
then later police are saying it is a person that looks like Dorner.
Assuming it is Dorner, what will happen in this standoff? Will they try to
make contact with him? Will they try to get a relative, I understand he
has a mother and sister, they might have been estranged. Will they try to
talk him into a surrender?
YANG: It`s not clear yet, but clearly that`s what they want. There was
just a news briefing at the LAPD headquarters in downtown Los Angeles.
YANG: And an LAPD spokesman was asked if he could get a message to Dorner
what would it be? He said the message is enough is enough. It`s time to
turn yourself in. It`s time to end this bloodshed. They clearly want to
end this with Dorner turning himself in. They want to end the threat to
the LAPD officers on his manifesto. They want to end the threat to the
public. And they would like to see it end on this mountain in San
Bernardino county now.
SHARPTON: Yes. And we went to that press conference live, John.
Let me ask you this. Clint had said when we were talking with him a few
minutes ago, if in fact this is Dorner and if in fact Dorner`s point in his
manifesto was that he was dealing with being treated in an unjust matter
and that others have been, it would serve no purpose if he`s listening for
him not to surrender and for him to be harmed or killed because then we
would never have his story or his side or his version of what happened.
Wouldn`t it serve his interests if in fact his interests are what he claims
them to be if he would surrender?
YANG: And in fact, this weekend chief Charlie Beck of the LAPD says he is
reopening the case that led to Dorner`s firing from the LAPD. That he
wants to re-examine this case to see if anything -- that there`s either
validity to what Dorner has said in his manifesto or that to either prove
or disprove what Dorner said in his manifesto. And he said that the
results of that inquiry will be made public. So, presumably, Dorner would
want to have his day in court, as it were. Have his case heard again to
make his plea to present his argument again to the LAPD as they reopen and
re-examine this case.
SHARPTON: Now, one of the things that we do know is that he allegedly had
been at another cabin where the alleged robbery of a car or the pickup
truck happened. Do we know if where he`s barricaded now was a cabin that
no one was there? Is it possible someone is in the cabin? Or was he --
has he gone in a cabin that was empty or abandon?
YANG: Well, we don`t know about the cabin where he is now. Whether it was
empty, whether it was occupied. We do know that the cabin where he got the
truck, there were two people in there. They were tied up for a bit. One
of them was able to escape, get free and make a 911 call. And that`s how
this drama began. We don`t know about the cabin where he is now.
SHARPTON: So we do not know if he may have other hostages, where he is, or
if he`s alone. And we don`t know if the police -- the San Bernardino
police or other agencies know how to make contact, phone contact or
whatever communications if in fact he wanted to communicate and negotiate
or surrender if this is Dorner.
YANG: That`s exactly right, Rev. All they have got now to that cabin
really so far has been gunfire. But I don`t know they have established
contact. I would imagine that they want to try to get to him as you say to
send this message, the message that they were trying to deliver through the
press. That it`s time to turn himself in. Enough is enough. It`s time to
end the bloodshed.
SHARPTON: Clint, let me ask you. How does this play out? You are a
former FBI profiler. What are the stages that they would be going through
now to try and establish whether or not there`s more than Dorner if it is
in fact, Dorner in the cabin he`s at, how to make contact, is there phone
lines, is there a way to set up communication. Give us an idea of the kind
of procedures that they`d be going through at this point.
VAN ZANDT: Right now, Al. One is, obviously, law enforcement tactical
teams and others have surrounded that cabin and made sure no one can get in
and in theory no one can get out. If they`re being shot at and have a
clear target, they are going to shoot back. They will be working, as you
suggest, either trying to identify an existing phone line that`s in there
or they could give him a throw phone. In essence, a regular telephone on a
cord that the tactical team could throw up through a window and give him
the opportunity to pick up the phone and talk to law enforcement.
Intelligence gathering officers and agents will be trying to determine if
there is anyone else inside there who could be held against their will.
And obviously that`s going to impact tactically on how they may or may not
approach that cabin.
SHARPTON: Joining me now on the phone is Mary Ellen O`Toole, a former FBI
Mary Ellen, thanks for joining us. Tell me what your feelings are given
what information is available at this point.
MARY ELLEN O`TOOLE, FORMER FBI PROFILER (via phone): Sure. Thank you very
The situation at least in my opinion at this point indicates that Chris
does not want to give up peacefully. And I mean, that seems pretty
obvious. But the fact he`s facing such force with law enforcement down
there is actually pretty stunning because there really is no way he can
come out of this unless he wants to do it peacefully. And they`re going to
make every attempt to see if there`s someone else in that cabin, make sure
people if they are inside are safe. They`re going to do what they can.
But on Chris`s part, there`s no indication he wants this to end peacefully,
SHARPTON: Well, let me stop you right there. I want to come back to you,
but joining me on the phone now is Jay Obernoelte mayor of Big Bear Lake.
Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining me.
Where is all of the this -- how is this effecting the town? You are at the
center of where this is all playing out. Tell us what you can about how
it`s effecting your town and what you are hoping law enforcement can
JAY OBERNOELTE, MAYOR, BIG BEAR LAKE, CALIFORNIA (via phone): Well, the
carjacking and home invasion was in the city of Big Bear Lake. And now,
the action is centered around a small committee called Seven Oaks which is
seven miles to the south of big bear. So we`re thankful none of our
residents or tourists were put at risk by this.
Right now, we`re thinking the most, I have to tell you, about the two law
enforcement officers that were injured in the shootout with Mr. Dorner.
Our thoughts and prayers are with them. We have a huge debt of gratitude,
as you can imagine, for their defense of the community.
SHARPTON: Now, their condition is unknown. We certainly pray for their
recovery and sustaining of life.
How are the two people that we were told were his alleged hostages? Do you
OBERNOELTE: I do not know. Wouldn`t surprise me if I knew them personally
because we are a tight knit community up here and most of us know each
other. So, but - I have not been told what their names are.
SHARPTON: But as far as you know they were not harmed?
OBERNOELTE: As far as I know they were not harmed. And I have to say I`m
very proud of the way our whole community has born up under this situation.
I think it`s indicative to the spirit of the people who live here. What
happened when those two residents faced that home invasion that the first
thing they did, they got free and they called law enforcement. And that`s
the reason why Chris Dorner is holed up in a cabin and not fleeing
SHARPTON: Now, is there any indication yet that you have, if you can
reveal it, how long he may have been in the cabin with these two people if
in fact this is Mr. Dorner?
OBERNOELTE: I do not know that. Although I have to say I`ve been
impressed with the professionalism of the law enforcement response up here
in Big Bear in the last few days. They have been very diligent about
searching all the cabins up here in the area where Chris Dorner could have
been. So, I don`t know for sure, but I would be very surprised if he`s
been in that cabin the whole time.
SHARPTON: Now, is there -- because of the searches and because of the
rumor, has there been a lot of fear in the city of your town of Big Bear
for the last few days? Has this really had people living a stressful
condition the last several days?
OBERNOELTE: Well, it`s been stressful, but I`m proud of the way our
community has responded. There`s been no panic. We are very resilient up
here. We live in the mountains. We`re used to adversities like force fire
and feet snow that you measure in feet and not inches. So, this is just,
you know, one more hazard that we have to bear and we are glad it`s coming
to an end though, I can tell you that.
SHARPTON: If Chris Dorner is listening, what would you say to him?
OBERNOELTE: If he`s listening to me?
SHARPTON: Yes, if he`s listening right now on television.
OBERNOELTE: I would urge him to give himself up and not to throw his life
away. I think that everyone has something to contribute and maybe he has
not found what his purpose in life is, but I don`t think it is to die in
Seven Oaks today.
SHARPTON: Well, Mr. Mayor, we all join you in praying for those officers
as well as hopeful that the two citizens of your town are in good condition
at this point.
Thank you so much, Mr. Mayor.
OBERNOELTE: Thank you.
SHARPTON: Let me go back to Mary Ellen O`Toole. Former FBI profiler. You
said you feel this indicates that he does not want to give himself up
peacefully. If he was holding people for days and didn`t harm them, does
that tell you anything about him, Mary Ellen?
O`TOOLE: Actually -- no, actually, it does. And those dynamics in that
cabin are actually important. He restrained them and they were able to get
away which was probably not his intent. Fortunately, he did not kill them,
but we don`t know how they were treated during the period of time that he
was with them.
It does underscore for me his focus is on law enforcement. His focus is on
his revenge as he calls it in his manifesto at getting back at law
enforcement. And not with -- hopefully not with, you know, civilians. So,
I mean, that`s actually a very good sign. But under the circumstances of
what we`ve got going on right now with the firefight with law enforcement,
unfortunately it is kind of a small piece of behavior when you consider
exactly what`s going on now which is he`s basically fighting for his life
And it doesn`t sound like that`s going to -- and that`s what he wanted.
That`s what he put in the manifesto. And sadly, unless things change
dramatically, it does not appear -- one thing he does not want is to be
arrested by LAPD having his picture taken with them putting handcuffs on
him. And so, it sounds like he`s going to be in this for the long haul.
And that`s very, very sad considering how all this got started. Losing
your job, I understand it`s a big deal. But it`s not worth all of this.
SHARPTON: All right, Mary Ellen, let me thank you.
Let me go on to the phone line to talk to psychologist Jeff Gardere.
Jeff, what do you think from what we know is going through Chris Dorner`s
mind assuming this is Chris Dorner and what we`ve been told, in fact, the
things that have occurred. What do you say would be going through his mind
at this point?
DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST (via phone): Well, at this point I would
believe this is what he has been dreading. But at the same time wanting,
the final face-off, the final showdown with the police. Reverend, it seems
to me this is an individual who was going to accomplish his mission, try to
take down as many cops as possible especially those who may have been
associated with his circumstance of being fired from the LAPD. And
therefore, once that was accomplished, then he would either take his life
or die by suicide by cop.
SHARPTON: Now, Dr. Gardere, if in fact he was held up in a cabin with
hostages for a day or more and didn`t harm them and we`ve not seen any
signs of him harming other law enforcement, could it be argued that he
wanted to do this in L.A. if we`re talking about revenge?
I mean, what does that tell us? There`s this focus on just one department?
Are we misreading his intention? I mean, it seems to me that in six days
we have not seen a consistent pattern that makes a lot of sense. None of
this makes sense for someone to do this if in fact everything as we`ve been
told. But what is this break in pattern if in fact he`s been held up and
did not kill his hostages?
GARDERE: If he didn`t kill or harm his hostages, I don`t think it`s out of
character for him at all. He was very, very straightforward as to what it
is that he wanted to accomplish and who his list of enemies were or
happened to be.
GARDERE: And therefore at any time, this is a man who`s a sharp shooter,
this is a man who has incredible skills and therefore could have harmed
many more people.
SHARPTON: Now, if, in fact, and if he`s listening I want to emphasize
something Clint said. If, in fact, he was committed to the things he said
in his manifesto and not just using that, what purpose would he gain by not
living and coming forward in front of the world now? Whatever he would
face in the criminal justice system, the world media would be there and
telling his story as well as documenting some of the other things he`s
saying. If he believes what he`s saying, wouldn`t he come forward and do
that, Dr. Gardere?
GARDERE: Well, I believe, Reverend, he made up his mind a long time ago
that he was going to go down in flames. He was going to take down the LAPD
either their reputation and/or lives. And then being able to be able to
expose them, his mission would be done. He understands that he will not
get a fair shake. That he will not be vindicated. But however, especially
by the LAPD because he sees them as being corrupt.
Therefore he will not receive the justice that he feels he should get. So
what he is doing is trying to expose the LAPD as much as possible. Take
out as many people within the LAPD. Try to as much as possible. And
therefore can become a martyr. And we see that is happening. There`s a
very, very strange phenomenon in that there are many people who are now
seeing him sort of as a robin hood.
As a person who we need to extol his virtues for bringing out something
that many people do believe is a reality and that the LAPD has been a
racist police force for quite some time even though we know that officers,
captains are making some changes and Police Commissioner Bratton has made
some very good changes within the LAPD. But there`s still a lot of work
that needs to be done. And he is highlighting that. And that`s where his
plan though it seems crazy has actually worked for him.
SHARPTON: But at the same time, all of us have policemen in our families,
all of us know policemen. To kill innocent people is not to really
underscore what has gone wrong in the system. And we`ve all fought that no
one has more denial. If you`re really trying to make a point, you have to
live for the point rather than die and have others distort your point if in
fact you have a point.
GARDERE: Well, so interesting you should say that because I thought about
you. A person who in the early days was discriminated against so much.
And your response was to be an activist, to fight for civil rights, to make
it known as to what it is that we need to do to fight racism. And that`s
what I would have hoped Dorner would have done.
And why perhaps his response which has been so over the top, so murderous
really defeats the purpose in what it is that could have been something
that could have help so many people. It will not help anyone now. He`s
taken innocent lives. And I believe his life will be taken soon enough.
SHARPTON: Mary Ellen, what troubles me is and I have no idea and does
Dorner have no idea of the entire story. But I do know there are a lot of
legitimate claims of people in Los Angeles that should not be distorted or
misunderstood by the behavior of someone who would take innocent lives and
be cloud some legitimate claims.
If in fact, what he feels it`s legitimate, he should come forward and fight
it out. Because if he goes down in a hail of bullets as you and Dr.
Gardere feels he does, what has been achieved? And how does that color
those who claims that he is concerned about?
MARY ELLEN O`TOOLE, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, exactly. He is really
living out to be what we call in the behavioral analysis unit, he`s an
injustice collector. And this is someone who goes through life collecting
injustices and never forgetting about them. But the distinction here
between people who feel that they are wrong and almost an injustice
collector is that they response to whatever happens to them.
It show outrageous and egregious and it show disproportion that to whatever
that that`s what gets the attention. It`s not the injustice. It`s their
reaction to the injustice. And frankly, right now in my opinion he`s not
focused on how other people will view him. The world resolves around
Chris. And I think the world has resolved around him for a long time.
And right now in the situation, that`s probably even exacerbated or made
worse. So, I don`t think he`s thinking about what kind of a role model he
may be for other people who have legitimate gripes and complaints.
O`TOOLE: He`s thinking right now if he is -- his cognitive skills have
diminished. But his world is about him, not about other who may share
SHARPTON: Dr. Gardere, the case that he was fired about making statements
that they -- LAPD claimed to be false was four years ago. Explain to me
what could happen to somebody psychologically that four years later they
respond. What happens -- you would think this happened four weeks ago,
four days ago. We`re talking about four years. What happens in somebody
that would make them snap if that is in fact, what happened?
GARDERE: Well, I believe that this is an individual who for a very long
time has been building the resentment, the hate, the aggression, the rage.
Everything that has gone wrong in his life he doesn`t take responsibility
for it and therefore can find a scapegoat. Even if in fact he was fired
wrongly, now he latches on to that emotional psychological insult and uses
that as a crutch for everything else that has gone wrong in his life.
One of the things that we know about him from reading his manifesto, at one
point he was in a van, allegedly a police officer said the "N" word.
GARDERE: Instead of addressing him, he grabbed them by the throat and
tried to choke him. So, this is a person who`s been unstable for quite
SHARPTON: Well, I`m going to have to leave it right there, Mary Ellen and
Dr, Gardere. We will continue monitoring this story. A very volatile
situation in California. And again, if this is Mr. Dorner and he can hear
us, any way we can facilitate you feeling that you can come and surrender,
we will do that. We do not want to see the continued bloodshed of innocent
people. That does not do anything but further harm the things that you
claim that you believe in.
And we certainly hope the nation`s praying for those two officers that have
been wounded and for the families of the three that have already lost their
lives. This is certainly a national tragedy no matter what the facts end
Let`s turn as we continue to monitor this, let`s turn to the other big
story of the day. The State of the Union. President Obama will build on
his vision he laid out in his inaugural unveiling in detail his plan for
the next four years and beyond. In an excerpt that has just been released,
the President says, "A growing economy that creates good, middle class jobs
that must be the North Star that guides our efforts every day. We should
ask ourselves three questions as a nation. How do we attract more jobs to
our shores? How do we equip our people with the skills needed to do those
jobs? How do we make sure that hard work leads to a decent living?"
That`s the end of the quote.
That`s an excerpt from his State of the Union address tonight. The
President will also announce a major draw down from Afghanistan. Thirty
four thousand troops will be coming back home. Half the troops that are
there now will be coming home. The First Lady`s guest tonight will reflect
the President`s priority. It includes a 102-year-old woman who waited on
line three hours on Election Day so she could exercise her right to vote.
It includes a college student from Mexico who is one of the first people to
benefit from the Obama administration`s program allowing young,
undocumented immigrants to study here. And the First Lady`s guest list
includes the parents of Hadiya Pendleton. The 15-year-old honor student
shot and killed after participating in the inauguration. It`s a historic
night. A chance for the President to speak directly to the American people
and set the stage for the second half of his presidency.
Let`s bring in Krystal Ball and Richard Wolffe. Thank you for coming on
the show tonight.
KRYSTAL BALL, MSNBC CO-HOST, "THE CYCLE": Thanks for having us, Reverend.
RICHARD WOLFFE, MSNBC COMMENTATOR: Thanks for having us.
SHARPTON: Krystal, what do you expect from the President`s State of the
BALL: Well, I think he is going to talk a lot about the economy as that
excerpt indicated. He`s going to focus on not just any jobs but good
middle class jobs, that kind of jobs that you can afford to support a
family on. It also looks like judging by the fact that he`s going to have
the 102-year-old woman as you mentioned who waited on line for three hours
to cast her ballot perhaps as a smaller mention in his speech.
I`m hoping he will talk in specific language about election reform, about
how we can avoid having those long lines in the future. As you know,
minorities waited on average almost twice as long as white voters to cast
SHARPTON: And in Florida it was the longest lines and a lot of organizers
BALL: Longest lines in the country.
SHARPTON: And there were people like Bishop Curry in operation. If they
had not done that, I don`t know that we`d got the results we did in
BALL: That`s exactly right. In fact, in Ohio University study found that
200,000 voters in Florida alone left the polls because they were frustrated
over long lines. You also have this just very arcane system of voter
registration. Patchwork of regulations across the country. So I would
love to hear some specifics from him. It`s something he`s talked about,
mentioned before, mentioned in his inaugural. Mentioned in his victory
speech. But to get into specifics and show he`s going to put some human
capital behind that.
SHARPTON: And the fact he`s that Richard, he`s having the 102-year-old
woman there gives us hope that he will do that. The other though is the
Supreme Court justices, most of them will be sitting there.
SHARPTON: And February 27th, later this month, they will be hearing the
argument on section five of the voting rights act. And if you didn`t have
section five in the voting rights act, the Attorney General couldn`t have
intervened in South Carolina and other states with a preclearance change --
a preclearance section to stop some of the changing in voting.
BALL: Right. That`s important. Remember, this President isn`t shy about
calling out the Supreme Court in the State of the Union.
SHARPTON: That`s why I brought it up. Judge Alito agrees with you.
WOLFFE: Yes, right. You know, will he do it on this? Or will he call out
something else? Remember the Supreme Court was pretty kind to him last
year when it came to health care reform?
SHARPTON: Well, the Supreme Court is also going to hear sometimes you hear
same-sex marriage. He may bring that up in front of the Supreme Court.
WOLFFE: And this is a president who feels the wind at his back. Right?
He knows that Republicans are struggling to find a path through this. His
inaugural address, well, they didn`t much like it, but he`s seen action
already. When you look at immigration reform, I don`t think anyone in
Washington seriously thinks it`s not going to happen. There`s a question
about scope, about speed, but this is really on the cards.
The question on gun control, gun safety, you know, he`s obviously going to
call that out. You don`t get the parents of Hadiya Pendleton out there
unless you`re going to make an emotional appeal on this question and say
now is the time. But yes, the economy, obviously Afghanistan. You know,
again, this president is in a confident mood here.
SHARPTON: Now, let me read another excerpt from the speech tonight. It`s
another quote. Tonight, I`ll lay out additional proposals that are fully
paid for and fully consistent with the budget framework both parties agreed
to just 18 months ago. Let me repeat. Nothing I`m proposing tonight
should increase our deficit by a single dime. It`s not a bigger government
we need but a smarter government that sets priorities and invests in broad
based growth. Interesting statement, Krystal.
BALL: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, Republicans try to caricature him as this
big government liberal who`s never seen a government program that he
doesn`t like, who`s going to spend us into the ditch. He`s going to turn
us into Greece. And the facts and the record say something very different
for the first time. Since January, it`s been quite a while. I think it
was January of 2008, we actually had a surplus.
This January, he has been slowing the growth of government spending. It
has been a priority for him. But obviously because of the economic
realities, we had to invest in the country in an immediate way to get us
back on track. So making that case reminding voters that he has been a
responsible hand on the tiller when it comes to balancing the budget and
keeping those policies in mind is obviously important too.
SHARPTON: Richard, I want to bring this up because I just want to bring
WOLFFE: Do it.
SHARPTON: When we`ve talked about the 102-year-old woman, the student from
Mexico, Hadiya Pendleton, the 15-year-old who was killed by gunfire in
Chicago, her parents sitting there.
SHARPTON: We talk about what it represents and the priorities of the
president. And all of us relate to all of what that represents. But one
congressman is bringing Ted Nugent tonight. Ted Nugent who said in my
judgment some of the most venomous stuff in the election. What signal does
WOLFFE: Well, Ted Nugent to be fair says, he`s going to demilitarize for
tonight. Whatever that means.
BALL: Oh, thank you. How kind of him.
WOLFFE: Here is a party that is still on the track of what Bobby Jindal,
one of their rising stars, says is the stupid party.
WOLFFE: And this isn`t just about a president who won the election who`s
feeling confident. He is talking about bigger issues that speak to
American voters more than deficit cutting. More than protecting these
outlandish folks who whether they`re celebrities or Tea Party or both,
Republicans feel that they`re still that base. The question for
Republicans isn`t how do you rebut this President tonight, what will Marco
The question for Republicans is, can they connect with mainstream America?
And if you cannot talk to values, if you cannot talk to aspirations of the
middle class, they`re never going to get there. And Ted Nugent isn`t going
to take them there.
SHARPTON: Well, I think people need to be reminded to what Ted Nugent
said. Because you can be conservative, you can be republican, you can be
one that doesn`t agree with the president. But Ted Nugent, why would a
congressman bring -- let me see if I can play for people what Ted Nugent
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED NUGENT, MUSICIAN: Barack Obama becomes the president in November
again, I will either be dead or in jail by this time next year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: Now, why would you bring someone like that as your guest to the
State of the Union address and you are a republican congressman?
WOLFFE: They`re not taking either the night seriously, they`re not taking
politics seriously. It`s politics as a show. That may work on some cable
news channels, but, you know, again, how does this party -- how do
Republicans speak to real voters` concerns. Remember, this is the party
that only a few years ago had a star, a rising star whose only claim to
stardom was that he accused the president of lying in the State of the
WOLFFE: You know, they do have a real choice. In certain districts this
might work. On certain news channels, this might work. They will never
make it to national power taking this line.
BALL: Right. It`s a cheap political stunt. It`s a pr stunt. This guy
wanted his name in the news. And he`s getting it.
SHARPTON: Who, the congressman?
BALL: The congressman who invited Ted Nugent. I mean, that is what this
is all about. It`s pr for himself in a very negative way. But like you`re
saying, this still plays in parts of the Republican Party. And I do think
that it illustrates in a way this divide that does exist in the Republican
Party. Because probably the person who is most nervous, most uncomfortable
with the fact that Ted Nugent has been invited is John Boehner.
They`re the ones who are trying to steer the Republican Party maybe back in
a decent course. Increase the Republican Party`s brand image in the
estimation of the American people.
SHARPTON: Well -- I`m going to have to take a break. But when we come
back, I`m going to pick up on John Boehner`s response to that. Krystal,
Richard, stay with me. We`ll have more ahead.
We`re monitoring the breaking news. A standoff involving ex-cop
Christopher Dorner who police believe has barricaded himself in a
California cabin. And we`ll be right back with more on the State of the
SHARPTON: We`re back watching that tense situation out in California.
Fugitive Chris Dorner may be barricaded in a cabin near Big Bear,
California. And we`re watching that if in fact it is him, again, we appeal
to him to come forward and surrender and lay your case out in front of the
world if, in fact, you believe what you have said in the manifesto you
If, in fact, you believe it, it serves no purpose to not end this in a way
where no more innocent lives or blood is shed and where we certainly can
hear what it is you claim was the injustice. But no injustice justifies --
none -- justifies shedding of innocent lives. We pray for those officers
hurt today and the families of the deceased.
Let`s turn to the other big story again. The State of the Union.
President Obama said the worst day of his presidency was the day of Sandy
Hook. Since first learning about it, the gun control has been the top of
his agenda. The gun control issue. And the fight has been constant. And
tonight on the biggest stage, the President will make the case to the
American people. But he won`t be alone.
We`ll see the courageous faces of tragedy. Over 20 families of gun victims
will be in that hall tonight. Americans whose lives have been forever
changed including the family of Hadiya Pendleton, the 15-year-old Chicago
honor student killed in a park. Her parents will sit in the First Lady`s
box. Today we heard some of the stories from the courageous Americans.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLEO PENDLETON, MOTHER OF HADIYA PENDLETON: I`m here today because my
daughter never came home. I`m here today because she lost her life to gun
LYNN MCDONNELL, MOTHER OF GRACE MCDONNELL: On December 14th we lost the
love and light of our family, our daughter Grace. After that day I made a
promise to her that I would be her voice.
ELVIN DANIEL, SISTER MURDERED BY HER HUSBAND: I am here to speak for her
since she is not here to speak for herself.
SAHMI RAHIMIN, FATHER KILLED: As the President has said, if we can even
save one life from a dot of gun violence, we have the obligation to try.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: That`s right. That`s right.
EMILY NOTTINGHAM, MOTHER OF GABE ZIMMERMAN KILLED IN TUCSON SHOOTING:
Right now Congress can act, step up, and govern. Please don`t let us down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: We`re back with Krystal Ball and Richard Wolffe. You know,
could tonight be the turning point on this issue? Because here we`re
seeing Krystal, human faces.
Here we`re seeing the people whose lives will never be the same, a loved
one gone. Hadiya`s mother, the mother mothers, the other relatives. That
it`s not republican/democrat. It`s not the aisle which you sit on for
them, this is real life. And they`re sitting there saying, this has to
stop. Could this be the turning point tonight?
BALL: There is nothing more powerful than those voices and those stories
of tragedy. I think we`ve already seen the turning point. I think the
turning point was Sandy Hook. And the nation looks about and said this is
unacceptable and we have to try. We don`t know what all the answers are,
but we have to try. And what`s incredible is there was a lot of talk about
how, you know, it was December when Sandy Hook happened, we had lots of
other things going on in politics.
Maybe this would fall up the new cycle, maybe the President would decide he
wanted to spend his political capital elsewhere especially with republican-
controlled house. But there has been such continued support for movement
in this area and to his credit, the President and Vice President have
really continued to push. And this State of the Union address will be the
next step on this.
Now, I do think it could be the turning point in terms of actual action
from Congress. I was one of those who was skeptical. That you could get
anything meaningful through this Congress on gun legislation. But the
pressure has been so hot and so sustained that I do now think that it`s
SHARPTON: Richard, what do you think is possible to get out of this
Congress? In terms of gun control?
WOLFFE: I think we`re obviously looking at universal background checks or
at least closing some of the loopholes on background checks. You know,
that is -- if this is a turning point, it`s a slow turning point. Right?
So if our expectations are that nothing would happen, yes, we can do better
than that. But that`s not really going to make that much of a dent in gun
violence. This is has got to be 10, 20 years of persistent effort.
This is like rolling back the influence of tobacco in this country and the
tobacco lobby. It`s like changing the behavior of the car industry for
safety. That didn`t happen overnight. That happened because there was
effort on a whole range of fronts. Whether it was families of victims or
the medical side of it or the industry becoming involved and legislation.
All of those things coming together over time.
So yes, it`s the start. It`s the start of something and it`s the start of
something big. And if not for the actions of the White House, yes,
Congress would have dropped it. These are difficult things, even
background checks are difficult things for some members of the Congress.
But what we saw from the tobacco debate, once the mystique is broken, once
the spell is broken of the lobby, in that case it was a tobacco institute.
In this case it`s the NRA. Things change and they can change very quickly.
SHARPTON: The fact that we are seeing movement at all is hopeful, but is
it going to be enough and do we have the challenge of continuing this even
beyond some first steps. I mean, we may get something that`s not enough.
How do we keep it going, Krystal?
BALL: Well, I think we`ve already set in some ways the wheels in motion
for the sort of continued sustained action that we will need to have a
bigger impact over time. I mean, for the longest time, the political
calculus for any politician democrat or republican running in a rural red
or purple state was to be as pro-gun as possible. There just was no
political incentive on the other side to support gun control.
Now you`re seeing groups between the group that Mark Kelly and Gabby
Giffords has set up, mayors against illegal guns. These are groups that
can bring political resources to bear. To provide some incentives to be on
the right side of this issue. That hasn`t existed really ever to have
money significant money and power behind you to be in favor of gun control.
So that will gradually shift the calculus.
I also think that we`ve seen a process of education on where the public
stands on these various issues. The NRA for the longest time had a
monopoly on this conversation.
BALL: They were able to convince their voters that democrats wanted to
come from their guns. Now that we`re getting into the specifics of what
we`re talking about, that position and that rhetoric is no longer
SHARPTON: We`ll going to have to leave it there. Krystal Ball, Richard
Wolffe, thanks for your time tonight.
BALL: Thanks, Reverend.
SHARPTON: We`re continuing to monitor the situation in California where
ex-LAPD cop is believed to have barricaded himself in a California cabin.
Let`s listen in now to more from KNBC`s coverage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: A split level. But what`s amazing to me, as I stand
here, I can look down at the parking lot at the ski resort where they held
the press conferences and I`m telling you, it is under the length of I`d
say a football field and a half from where they were holding all those
press conferences day after day. So, I mean, literally you can look right
down on it. One of the troubling things for parents, a lot of kids up here
skiing. Absolutely gorgeous day, and they can`t get their kids.
They took everybody off the ski runs and they put them in the cafeteria up
here. And parents have been coming up club view drive which is the way you
get up to the resort and they`re being turned around and they`re very
agitated because they can`t get to their kids. And they`re told to go
another route. And I`m not quite sure how they`re getting them to retrieve
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Sorry to interrupt you for a second. I just want to
clarify because our viewers, we are watching pictures of the cabin where
the standoff is happening. You`re talking about the cabin where Ana Garcia
was reporting that two women were taken hostage, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: You know, I don`t know. All I know is that this is the
cabin where he was, the sheriff`s deputies here have confirmed that to me.
And of course I`ve been watching it as people are coming in and out. This
is the one that is very, very close to the ski resort.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Near big Bear Mountain Resort, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: That seems to be the original cabin where he
apparently had these two women tied up for a couple of days. This is where
they say someone matching Christopher Dorner`s description took off in a
white pickup at about 12:00 this afternoon.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Yes. This is where the white pickup came from. Yes.
You`re absolutely correct. They have confirmed this is where the white
pickup came from. But they`ve cordoned off a big side of this hillside up
here now as they continue their investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: And I want to go back to Ana Garcia has been sending me
notes, and she is one of our reporters who`s been getting in-depth
information from various law enforcement sources. She says that cabin that
you`re looking at, it`s believed that one woman may have broken free and
then called 911 today. And that`s what she`s hearing from her source and -
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Well, I can tell you, there`s no sign of any kind of
forced entry into the cabin. I`ve been looking at the windows. I thought
that maybe one had -- it was broken, but it doesn`t appear that way.
There`s a screen off one of the windows towards the back end of the cabin.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not
reproduce or redistribute the material except for user`s personal or
internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall
user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may
infringe upon MSNBC and ASC LLC`s copyright or other proprietary rights or
interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of