updated 2/13/2013 11:03:13 AM ET 2013-02-13T16:03:13

HARDBALL
February 12, 2013

Guests: Clint Van Zandt, Jenn Berman, Jay Obernolte, Andrew Blankstein


CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews up in New York.

Tonight, President Obama will deliver his State of the Union, and we`ll
have full coverage, of course, of that tonight. But first, there`s
breaking news out in southern California, where police may be closing in on
Christopher Dorner, that fugitive ex-Los Angeles cop sought in three
killings.

NBC`s John Yang is in our Los Angeles bureau right now, but let`s go to
former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt, who has been watching this. He`s on
the phone. Clint, what are we looking at here? It seems like the evidence
we`ve got is he broke into a house out in the San Bernardino Mountains. He
tied up two of the people who lived there, stole their pickup truck, and is
now trying to get away from police.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FMR. FBI PROFILER (via telephone): Yes. It may be that`s
exactly the case. Realize, Chris, that`s one of the scenarios that law
enforcement had to the consider. As you know, up in those mountains, where
they`ve conducted this massive manhunt, there are literally hundreds of
private homes and cottages, some that are occupied and some that aren`t.

Police believe they had done a house-by-house search, but somehow, in one
of those residences, it appears that Dorner had managed to break in, held
two people hostage for over an extended period of time, and now, perhaps
with one hostage, attempted to make a break to escape from that area.

There are media reports that suggest the vehicle that he`s driving, a
pickup truck, has been wrecked or otherwise run off the road, that Dorner
has abandoned the vehicle, that he is still armed with at least a
semiautomatic weapon. And there are media reports that a running gun
battle is taking place with him and the authorities, and that at least two
officers, wildlife officers in that area, may have been wounded in the
ongoing firefight.

MATTHEWS: And we know already that he`s being held -- or he`s actually
also been officially charged with murder of one police officer. He`s been
charged, it also has been reported, with attempted murder of two other
police officers and he`s being sought for the murder of a daughter and
fiance of a police captain, as well.

Let`s go right -- hold on there. Let`s go right now to John Yang, Clint.
He`s out in Los Angeles at our bureau there.

John, thanks for joining us. Can you bring us up to date just -- a lot of
people have been following this case and a lot happened. Fill us all in.

JOHN YANG, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, I`ll tell you what, Chris. This is
what`s -- what we`re facing right now. We have -- for the past 20 minutes
or so, there have been reports of gunfire, being described by some as
automatic weapons fire.

What happened is that this guy, Christopher Dorner, former LAPD cop who had
been dismissed, left the force in January 2009 because of, allegedly -- or
he was found to have made false reports about excessive force by a fellow
officer and has been trying to clear his name ever since that.

It went to court. And then on Saturday -- or Sunday, rather, a week ago
yesterday, there -- he is believed to have killed Michelle (SIC) Quan, the
daughter of his union rep, who represented him at this board of inquiry at
the LAPD. He killed her fiance, or he allegedly killed her fiance, and
then on early Thursday, was involved in a gunfight with LAPD officers who
were guarding another target that he had listed in his manifesto.

As he fled from that scene, he is now charged, officially charged, with
killing a Riverside police officer, wounding another who were stopped at a
red light. And ever since then, ever since Thursday, the search has been
going on.

They found his burning pickup truck outside Big Bear Lake, a resort area
northeast of Los Angeles in the San Bernardino Mountains. And that`s where
the search has been focused. with no real evidence of his whereabouts until
today, when the sheriff`s department there got a call about a home
invasion.

It`s not clear how long ago this home invasion took place, although the
person who was able to get free called, reported their pickup truck had
been stolen, and that`s what set this chain of events off. This pickup
truck was spotted. There was a high-speed chase.

It`s not clear what happened. The pickup truck we now think may have run
out of gas, may have had an accident. But then they followed tracks in the
snow from the pickup truck into the woods, and that`s where this gunfire,
this gunfight took place.

We have reports from the police scanner and also from law enforcement
officials that at least two officers -- we believe them to be from the
state fish and wildlife department of California -- have been wounded.
They have been taken to the hospital, to the Arrowhead Regional Medical
Center.

And the last report we have is that there is still this standoff in the
woods outside Big Bear Lake, and that`s where this six-day search for
Christopher Dorner has led us to, Chris.

MATTHEWS: So as we know now -- and we have to use the words alleged right
now -- but the authorities are seeking this man`s arrest because of three
killings, two attempted murders. And apparently, based on the reporting
I`ve seen, this guy is now eligible, if he`s convicted -- eligible for
capital punishment at this point...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... California.

YANG: Exactly right, Chris, because he fired on police officers. The term
of art under California law, he fired on peace officers. Now, I should
also point out that in this manifesto, this sort of bill of grievances that
he posted on line, he made it clear, as he says -- and I`m quoting him here
-- "Self-preservation is no longer important to me. I do not fear death,
as I died long ago, on January 2nd, 2009." That`s the day he officially
was stripped of his badge on the LAPD.

So he is -- there`s -- as Clint, I think, pointed out, there -- Clint Van
Zandt pointed out, there has been a long fear here that what he was trying
to do was to draw the police into some kind of final fire fight that he
knew would end in his death, or might end in his death, but he would also
try to take as many law enforcement officers as he could with him. He said
that all law enforcement officers were a fair target.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

YANG: He listed a number of others who he said were high-value targets
because they were directly involved in his case on the LAPD.

MATTHEWS: You know, it strikes me as very strange, this story. I`ve not
been following it, but this man is obviously under a lot of pressure and
delusion. There`s kind of a notion here of romance, in the sense that he`s
going to end in flames, basically, in a firefight. It`s like one of those
old movies, you know, "High Sierra" or "White Heat" or something.

Let me ask you about the authorities involved in tracking him now. Are
they all LA sheriffs? Or what department has been pursuing and may be in
this firefight right now against him?

YANG: Well, right now -- It`s been pretty much LAPD, and in this area,
it`s been the sheriff`s department has had the lead on the investigation in
the area where this gunfight is going on now, the San Bernardino Sheriff`s
Department.

MATTHEWS: Right.

YANG: Also, this is an area with a lot of resorts, a lot of state forest,
so the state fish and wildlife is involved. We understand from the radio
traffic that it`s actually state fish and wildlife officers, at least two,
who have been wounded so far.

MATTHEWS: OK. Can you tell us now as we pick up on this case -- it
reminds me of the white Bronco, actually, this time of night, in fact, out
in LA, when O.J. Simpson was being pursued. But let me ask you about
this. It seems to me there`s a contradiction there. Is he trying to get
away or trying to confront?

YANG: It`s -- well, that`s the thing, is that he -- in this manifesto, he
made clear he was going to go after these people. And ever since the
initial shootings on last Sunday, a week ago yesterday -- or a week ago --
I`m sorry, a week ago this weekend, the LAPD has had about 50 families of
current and former LAPD officials, officers, officials under guard and have
surveillance because they think this is where he was going to go.

This is where he was going to try to head to try to take these people on,
that he said that these were all high-value targets, in his words.

And you know, there`s another thing -- this is a -- in his -- in his
manifesto, it`s interesting on the -- on this day where the president is
going to give his State of the Union, and presumably talk about gun
control, he says in his manifesto, if you had a well-regulated assault
weapons ban, this would not happen. In his manifesto, he gives his own
push for gun control, and actually praises Senator Dianne Feinstein for
leading -- as he says, "You are doing the right thing in leading the
reinstitution of a national assault weapons ban."

MATTHEWS: This is certainly kaleidoscopic in terms of his thinking. Let`s
go right now to Clint Van Zandt to try to get a sense of this fellow. Have
you been on this, Clint, enough to take a reading on this person, who seems
to be trying to escape at the same time confront, I guess, his accusers
back when he had his personnel fight with the LAPD?

VAN ZANDT: Chris, this has been ongoing for really (INAUDIBLE) right now
(INAUDIBLE) you know, if we bring a clinical psychologist in, they`re going
to tell you that this guy is narcissistic, he has this tremendous self-
image of himself.

Well, all of these things are true, but I think his challenge is that he`s
also someone that has (INAUDIBLE) saved up injuries over the years, and
he`s made himself to be really the ultimate victim (INAUDIBLE) for a number
of different reasons over his life.

He eventually obtained his dream job, an LAPD officer. But depending, if
you listen to him (INAUDIBLE) if you listen to the LAPD, this guy wasn`t
cutting it as a police officer. When he realized he might not get the job
and he might not be able to stay on the street, they allege that he made up
a story, said his training officer beat up a suspect they were arresting.
That eventually wound up in a -- basically, a court hearing in the LAPD.
He was terminated because of that.

But Chris, he still had his commission in the Navy. As you know, he was a
lieutenant in the naval reserve. He had been deployed (INAUDIBLE) But then
he felt that -- as you know in the Navy, if you don`t make rank two
different times in the military and you`re an officer, the third time,
you`re out.

Well, he didn`t make lieutenant commander, so as of the first of the month
(INAUDIBLE) (INAUDIBLE) now blamed the LAPD for everything. And he`s going
to hold them responsible, and that`s why he apparently has targeted
officers and their families.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, Clint, this -- I worked in the government, in the
Senate for years. And I have to tell you, there`s always a number of
people out there, in fact, a good number of them, who`ve had a problem with
a bureaucracy, in this case the LA Police Department, where they have an
incident where they feel wronged, aggrieved. And they spend the rest of
their lives sometimes simply Xeroxing copies of their complaint to
everybody they know and then piling up Xeroxes so they have about a foot --
or actually, a couple of inches of this file, and spend the rest of their
lives trying to deal with something instead of moving on.

This is obviously a much more grievous case, where a person has been
killing people because of this incident where he feels aggrieved.

VAN ZANDT: (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS: I think we`re missing -- we`re going to have to get a better
connection with you, Clint. We`re going to have to -- try to get a better
connection, if you can. We`d like you to come back and tell us more about
this -- let`s go back to John Yang at our bureau in Los Angeles.

John, how long has this been a front page story out there? How long has
this been -- this manhunt, been the focus of attention in Los Angeles?

YANG: This has dominated the headlines since Thursday. That`s the day
that the -- there was the shootings -- the gunfire, the gunfight in
Torrance between LAPD officers who were guarding a home of one of the
targets, one of Dorner`s targets, and they believe the gunfire with Dorner.
He then killed one Riverside police officer who was responding to the scene
and wounded another. And this search has been going on ever since.

It`s been dominating the news. It`s set this area on edge. There have
been false alarms of -- I think, Saturday night -- or Sunday night, rather,
there was a report that someone resembling Dorner was seen at a Lowe`s
hardware store in North Ridge outside Los Angeles. Police arrived. They
emptied the store, went through everybody one by one to check their IDs, to
check who they were, sort of detaining people for a very long time and
wreaking havoc in the entire neighborhood.

Chris, we now have a statement from the San Bernardino Sheriff`s
Department. They say that at 2:22 this afternoon -- that`s 2:22 Pacific
time, 3:22 (SIC) Eastern time, deputies working on this search responded to
a call for a stolen vehicle. The reporting party said the suspect took
their vehicle and described the suspect as looking very similar to Dorner.

MATTHEWS: Right.

YANG: Deputies immediately began a search on the ground and from the air
for the vehicle. The vehicle was located on highway 31 and Glass (ph)
Road. The suspect fled into the forest and barricaded himself inside a
cabin. I believe that`s the cabin we`re looking at from the KNBC
helicopter right now.

A short time later, there was an exchange of gunfire between law
enforcement and the suspect. Sheriff`s SWAT team is on scene. Two law
enforcement officers are being airlifted to a local hospital with unknown
injuries.

So that`s our first official word as to what`s going on up there in the San
Bernardino Mountains.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about Christopher Dorner, the man they`re chasing
right now, they may have confronted already in this firefight, if you will.
Is he -- does he have any family members, anyone that might be brought in
to try to speak -- to talk him out of his fight?

YANG: He has -- his mother he`s referred to in his -- actually -- who has
-- we -- according to law enforcement may own property in the area, up
around Big Bear. He also has a sister. He refers in his manifesto to his
relations with both his mother and his sister as having been destroyed by
what he went through, by the -- his dismissal from the LAPD and what he
describes as the severe depression that he suffered after it.

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s go back over this. It seems to me that this man is
-- has got a lot of trouble he`s in now because killing a police officer,
as you say, is a capital crime out in California, and also, attempted
murder of two other police officers, the killing of a daughter and a fiance
of a former police captain.

Do we know what that -- what circumstance was there which led him to kill
people who were clearly not members of the police force that he`s had this
vendetta against?

YANG: Well, the young woman that he killed was the daughter of a retired
LAPD captain turned lawyer who was his union rep in the hearing that led to
his dismissal.

And in his manifesto, he talks about how if a police officer is in that
position, he should never have a union rep. He says, "Never allow a union
attorney to be a retired LAPD captain. He doesn`t work for you, your
interests, or your home. He works for the department, period. His job is
to protect the department from civil lawsuits being filed and their best
interests, which is the almighty dollar. His loyalty is to the department,
not his client."

So clearly, he blames this retired LAPD captain for what happened to him,
and then extracted revenge by killing his daughter. And also, in an
affidavit that was filed to support the murder charges that were filed
yesterday, or the arrest warrant filed -- that was filed yesterday, they
say that on Thursday, a man identifying himself as Dorner called this
gentleman, this retired LAPD captain, who was mourning the death of his
daughter, and taunted him by saying, you know, You didn`t protect your
daughter well enough. So it`s clear the anger he feels toward these
people.

MATTHEWS: He`s media savvy, obviously, and I was wondering about the way
the public is reacting in the LA community. I understand there are people
even cheering for this person because of their attitude towards the --
well, the history of the LA police in the past, certainly.

YANG: That`s exactly right, that there is this sort of well-known history
and animosity between the LAPD and especially the African-American
community here in Los Angeles. There have been people on line who have
been supporting him in various ways, some people on line saying that if
they spotted him, they would not call the police.

You can`t tell how big this movement is, but it`s certainly being very
vocal on line and on Twitter.

MATTHEWS: I think he`s very aware of how he can rally that group of
people. Anyway, thank you, John Yang.

We`re going to go right now to get really good local coverage from KNBC out
in Los Angeles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... initiated that allegedly. Here we are now,
potentially, if, in fact, Christopher Dorner is holed up in this cabin,
this could, in fact, be the beginning of the end.

You have multiple law enforcement agencies. We talked about the San
Bernardino Sheriff`s Department leading that search up in the mountains.
You have other state agencies, the FBI, the U.S. Marshals. And although
his war was waged against the LAPD and any officers who are helping, this
is a brotherhood of law enforcement agencies, and here they are backing
each other up in the mountains there.

Again, we can`t get in too closely because we want to protect the officers
who are involved. Already, it`s been confirmed that two have been injured
or have been wounded in a potential shootout and are being treated or at
least in the process of being taken to a nearby hospital.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Arrowhead Regional Medical Center there
in Colton (ph).

News Chopper 4 is overhead, as you can see, but we want to express that he
is very far away, at a very high altitude, and we have a good zoom lens on
that -- on that camera on News Chopper 4.

And one of the things that he also has to worry about in News Chopper 5 is
in the middle of a gunfight like that, you never know which way the bullets
are going to fly. So they want to keep everybody safe, the officers on the
ground, tactically speaking, and of course, any of the choppers that could
be hit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And as we are -- as we know, or at least as it`s been
confirmed, that a man matching the description of Christopher Dorner has
been holed up in a cabin for days, likely watching news reports of all of
this unfold. And if he`s in another cabin now, surrounded by law
enforcement agencies, it`s possible and perhaps even likely that he has the
TV going again.

So we are being very careful and coordinating with law enforcement agencies
to not show anything that could jeopardize this operation or put the
officers on the ground in danger.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Highway 38 is one of these areas that`s closed off
right now. And Jacob Rascone (ph) is there. Jacob has been up on Big Bear
for days now, ever since that burned-out truck was found in the Big Bear
area. And Jacob, when you first arrived on scene, what did you see?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I first arrived, they were just blocking off the
road, highway 38, again about 18 miles from where ground zero is for this
apparent (ph) gun battle. And as I pulled up -- I have just my personal
vehicle, so they -- an unmarked car as far as news goes. They waved me
down frantically.

I pulled over, and they said to me something to the effect of, Are you
kidding? There are bullets flying. You know, Get out of here. And I
asked if I could, park just on the side of the road. They said, You`re
welcome to. I told them I was with the press.

But they were very intense, very quick with me, just to -- you know, just
to see if I wasn`t aware of the seriousness of the situation. They said
there are bullets flying. It`s a gun battle. And they asked me, you know,
in the most polite terms they could at the time, to pull over there.

Just as we have been talking here in the last 30 seconds, two more law
enforcement vehicles have gone by, one Suburban, another truck. So they
just keep coming. They haven`t stopped for the last 40 minutes since this
started.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jacob, I`m going to interrupt you for just a moment to
point out to our viewers what you`re seeing right now. On the right, this
is a screen of our News Chopper 4 actually pulling back from the area. And
we have just been given notice by Sheriff McMahon of the San Bernardino
County Sheriff`s Department. He is asking our media helicopters to pull
back or leave the area of the barricaded suspect. He says: "Gunfire is
being exchanged between law enforcement and the suspect -- suspect. Your
personnel are in danger and could contribute to officer safety on the
ground. Thank you for your cooperation."

So that is why, of course, we are working with law enforcement officers
there here at NBC 4 News. We want to make sure that we don`t put any of
those officers` safety in jeopardy.

So, that`s your seeing that picture pull back and here we are going back to
a live picture of one of the police roadblocks, I believe, on Highway 38.

So, clearly, at this point with multiple sources coming in, this is an
active situation. We believe law enforcement officers believe Christopher
Dorner is barricaded in a cabin and all indications are this could be the
beginning of the end.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chris Dorner trapped in that cabin. Trapped up on
the mountain right now are a whole bunch of skiers.

And Chris Riddle from the Bear Mountain Resort is on the phone right now.

Chris, this must be an incredibly tense time for you. And I`m sure that
you`re happy this is going to be hopefully over within the next few hours.
What is going on?

CHRIS RIDDLE, VICE PRESIDENT, MARKETING BIG BEAR MOUNTAIN RESORTS: Yes.

Obviously, there`s been a lot of tension up in the mountains, just the
uncertainty of not knowing where this guy was this whole time. So what`s
happened today is right below Bear Mountain Resort, apparently, there was a
break-in and a couple was tied up and their car was stolen, and the chase
went down Highway 38, which is about 20 miles where they are right now
towards Angeles Oaks, about 20 miles outside of Big Bear, so that they have
actually left the valley of Big Bear.

And what Caltrans is telling us right now due to this situation that all
roads into the mountain are going to be closed. They`re telling us right
now that the skiers that are up here need to find a place to relax for a
while at least and the commuters that would normally be coming up the
mountain, working down the hill and the coming back up in the afternoon,
they are not going to be able to come up for a while either. So until
further notice, we`re -- everybody has got to stay put.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And, Chris, our viewers are watching one of those
roadblocks right now. We have actually seen armored vehicles being towed
up there on trailers up into the mountains. So, it looks like police are
getting ready for -- to escalate this standoff here.

But from your perspective, if people are there trapped up in the ski
resort, what -- what are folks thinking? I mean, are they afraid? Have
you talked to anyone? I was there last weekend and it seemed as though
people kind of were brushing it aside, thinking, you know what? We don`t
think he`s really here anymore. At this point, is the fear real?

RIDDLE: Well, I think actually there`s more relief now knowing that,
number one, he`s out of Big Bear, and, number two, that he`s surrounded
and, you know, there`s going to be some form of resolution here.

So there`s kind of a collective sigh of relief that now at least we know
where this guy is and, you know, he`s not going to come barging through
anybody`s door up here anymore. So from that standpoint, I think, you
know, it`s kind of, like I said, a sigh of relief.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you don`t see any officers, any authorities, any
deputies, marshals, FBI agents in your area any longer?

RIDDLE: No, there certainly are. Obviously, Club View Drive, which is the
road up towards Bear Mountain, and that`s where this...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s where the cabin was. That...

(CROSSTALK)

RIDDLE: That`s where the cabin was.

And interestingly enough, that is also literally within a stone`s throw of
where the command center has been ever since this whole situation started.
It was literally right there across the street. So...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chris, stay with us for just a second. We have some
news coming in from Bear Valley Unified School District. Big Bear High,
Baldwin Lane Elementary, Chautauqua High School, the lockdown has been
lifted now.

So, parents, you can go and pick up your children at this point. However,
Fallsvale Elementary remains on lockdown.

You know the area very well. Is Fallsvale Elementary nearer to where this
is going down, where that cabin is on seven oaks?

RIDDLE: Absolutely. That school is in Angeles Oaks, which is very close
to area where the situation has moved to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very frightening for parents.

And, Chris, bear with us. I have got another follow-up question, but want
to just report something that we`re getting from the San Bernardino County
Sheriff`s Department here.

They are confirming two officers have been airlifted to the hospital
although it has not been confirmed what agency they are with. Again, a
multiagency effort, and you see here in our live picture an Inland Valley
SWAT armored vehicle rushing to the scene.

Chris, I want to get back to what you were saying a moment ago. You know
where the cabin is. I was there. The command post was there. We were
talking to people in the area. I was interviewing skiers and snowboarders.
How close was that cabin to the command post? Were we in the media, law
enforcement literally walking by this place every day?

RIDDLE: Yes.

You guys were probably right across the street from where this cabin was.
You know, I -- they have got -- they`re doing their investigation on Club
View right now, so I don`t know exactly which cabin it is, but my
understanding is it`s right where the media was parked is where that --
this went down earlier today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s chilling to think about that possibility, that two
innocent people potentially were being held against their will by this man,
allegedly, Christopher Dorner, who has declared war on the LAPD, and I
remember walking up and down that road. We were rushing around having the
press briefings there.

I was looking into those windows and there were people coming out of those
cabins. So somebody was -- even neighbors were there and didn`t notice
anything. It`s just -- it`s impossible for me to imagine that this is
really what unfolded.

I wonder if there was any sort of tip because we know that the San
Bernardino county Sheriff`s Department was asking for surveillance video,
and although it`s speculation, I wonder if there was any sort of tip that
came in that suggested that he was still in the area, which is what
prompted them to ask for surveillance video.

Has your ski resort gone over any surveillance video to see if, in fact,
there was anybody matching Dorner`s description walking in the area?

RIDDLE: Yes, we do have certain areas that we have got cameras set up,
some outdoors and a lot of indoors. He wouldn`t be in an indoor situation,
but, yes, we looked through, and as far as I know we have not found
anything on any of ours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, the cabin they were talking about is 1274 Club
View Road, probably in Big Bear. And so, I mean, that`s the exact address,
but, I mean, one can only imagine how scary it would have been for these
women that may very well have been held hostage for days on end with people
walking by, hearing authorities knocking on the door, and we know what you
were saying, that the authorities were saying, we`re not going to just bust
into a cabin if it looks like it`s secure and if it looks like it`s OK and
nothing is going on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And authorities had many different tips.

And, in fact, there was at one point -- there was a report of a cabin that
was broken into. And they went and they checked it out. They went inside
and it turns out that if there was damage there, it was old damage and
nobody had been there for a long period of time, but again just haunting to
think about -- we were discussing -- as we all rushed out to the scene at
Big Bear, we were talking about being safe and making sure that we don`t
venture outside of that command post, to make sure that we stay safe.

And the fact that this cabin was right there in the middle of everything,
not only could Christopher Dorner or this man matching his description have
been watching us on TV. He could have been watching us out of a window.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely he was. If he was in that cabin, he was
surveying the scene, because he was a former LAPD officer, former reservist
in the Navy. He was trained to watch, and that`s very, very key.

So he was most definitely watching.

Chris Riddle, those skiers and the people up there at your resort right
now, have authorities said how long this may last or do they just need to
stay there for the day?

RIDDLE: They are fine with us in normal operation here. But I guess the
only situation is that they`re not going to be able to get off the mountain
for a while. So they`re just going to have to either hunker down for a
while or maybe even spend the night and spend another day skiing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And -- forgive me, we`re getting information coming
into us right now, so, Chris and our viewers, please bear with us.

Again, we are showing you a live picture now of Highway 38, one of the
roadblocks there. We have reporters all over the region. We have our
Jacob Rascon on the other side of the roadblock on Highway 38.

MATTHEWS: We have been watching KNBC`s report out of Los Angeles.

Let`s go right now to our bureau out there in Los Angeles for NBC, John
Yang.

John, bring us up to date on the situation. Have you gotten any word
beyond what we`re getting from the affiliate?

YANG: We`re getting a little.

And sort of -- the information seems to be shutting down. The police
scanners have gone silent on this. I think they may have switched to
another frequency, so that we can`t hear what they`re doing. As KNBC was
reporting, they have asked the helicopters to move, the news helicopters to
move out.

And, in fact, the FAA has put in restrictions over the area. They say, the
sheriff`s department says that`s too for the protection of the news crews,
but I think you also saw some of the -- one of the reasons why they would
like the TV choppers out in those pictures of what was going up the road to
that cabin, some armored vehicles, some -- it looked like an armored
vehicle with snow tracks on it that could maneuver in the snow.

It`s entirely possible if there is power in that cabin that Dorner is
watching all of this, and they don`t want him to know what they`re doing.
They don`t want him to know what they`re doing outside the cabin beyond his
view. They don`t want him to know what equipment is being moved up there.

So, we are sort of losing some information. We have been learning, though,
that there were three schools in the area that had been on lockdown.
Parents were being advised not to go pick up their kids. It`s now about
2:30 here in Los Angeles.

That lockdown has been lifted at two of the three schools. One is still on
lockdown. And that`s why, as you heard them talking, this cabin where he
is now is -- or where he was -- is very, very close to the command center,
the command post that had been set up by officials and by where the media
was located.

And they are now -- sort of think that he could have actually seen them
outside the window, not just on television. Now, they were going door-to-
door in this area. There are a lot of cabins up there that are vacant, a
lot of second homes that weren`t occupied when the search began.

They were going door-to-door. They were knocking on doors. If there was
no answer, they weren`t breaking in unless there was sign of forcible
entry. So a lot of people are wondering how he could have been holed up
here for this long, and it could well be that nobody answered when the door
knocked, and I know your reference to "High Sierra," the Humphrey Bogart
movie, is very apt in this case...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

YANG: ... in that they could have -- he could have just had everyone stay
quiet and not respond.

So this standoff is continuing. We don`t know exactly what`s going on.
There have been shots fired between Dorner and -- and law enforcement
officials. At least two officers have been wounded, we understand there.
We believe them to be from the state Fish and Wild Life Department. They
have been medevaced to a hospital.

That hospital, by the way, now has a heavy police presence around it, and -
- but we have no official word yet on the conditions of those two officers.

MATTHEWS: John, it seems to be a case where this person we`re chasing
here, Christopher Dorner, who is alleged to have committed these murders
against a police officer and, of course, the daughter and fiance of a
police captain, a former police captain, and then attempted murder charges
are pending against him with the other two police officers, and apparently
there`s two more people wounded today, police officers again today, that he
has a media sense, that he wants a lot of play here, that he`s calling up
Charlie Sheen, who is troubled himself over the years, and trying to make
some kind of statement through the media here.

How would you reckon that right now, and how he`s building up this --
rallying this group of supporters even who see him as almost a challenger,
a citizen challenger of the police department out there and its history?

YANG: Yes. I mean, he`s got people online talking about this guy is
taking a stand for a cause. He`s talked about the -- what he calls the
racism inside the LAPD. He says that nothing has changed from the
Christopher Commission, from the Rampart scandal, and that the consent
decree should never have been -- should never have been lifted governing
the -- what was going on.

He does have a great media sense, and part of his -- and, Chris, I don`t
know how -- if you`re aware of this -- but part of his manifesto talks a
great deal about media figures he admires. And, Chris, I got to tell you,
you`re on that list.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

YANG: He praises -- praises you, praises Joe Scarborough, Brian Williams,
Meredith Vieira, Tavis Smiley, Anderson Cooper, Soledad O`Brien, says, keep
up the great work, follow Cronkite`s lead.

He does have a great sense of the media. He clearly watches and
understands what`s going on and this message that he posted online
certainly reflects that, and I don`t know whether it was calculated or not,
but, as you say, he has gotten some support online and on Twitter.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I think it`s one of those things in life, as we`re seeing
here in this tragic case that will probably get more tragic as the hours go
on, that people can have a high I.Q., for example, tremendous sensitivity
in certain areas, and also be emotional troubled to the point of this
horror story here.

Let`s bring in -- hold on there, John.

Let`s bring in former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt, who really knows this
kind of a situation.

We`re looking at a complicated case here, Clint, and we`re looking at
someone who obviously has high intelligence, but has gone through a period
in his life and through an incident which he has not been able to recover
from and move on at all, to the horror of and to the death of several
people now.

VAN ZANDT: Yes, Chris, this is someone who has accumulated these wrongs
against him over the years.

And as you and I were talking earlier, he`s built a giant file of this, and
he ultimately blames all the challenges in his life basically on being
fired from the LAPD, suggesting that that police department is corrupt and
he was trying in his own way to help clean it up.

And then he believes that his termination by the Navy, when the Navy let
him go and didn`t promote him to lieutenant commander, he believes that
also relates to him being released from the LAPD. But, realize, Chris,
it`s been three or more, four years since he left P.D. It was only
February 1 that he gave up his commission or it was taken away. And he
left the Navy.

One wonders how long in this guy`s mind he`s been scheming, putting all
these weapons and all these thoughts together and then sit down to write
that manifesto and create this target list that at least the LAPD believes
had at least 50 people on it.

MATTHEWS: But he can`t achieve all these goals. He can`t kill all the
people he has targeted, end up in kind of a dramatic barricade situation,
and escape.

I mean, these are three goals that are all in conflict, obviously, not to
make it too ludicrous. But it`s tragic and ludicrous. How can he get even
with all these people he has a vendetta against, escape, and also end up in
this horrific sort of flash of hell that he seems to be setting up here
perhaps?

VAN ZANDT: Well, we have got two things, Chris. Number one, it could just
be this very monstrous fantasy that he has in his mind that he was trying
to live out.

The other -- and I think you make a valid point that this guy is media-
savvy. He wants to manipulate. He wants his story out. He wants
everything to be heard about him, and at this point whether he lives or
dies, he`s trying to set up a scenario where he is remembered in the way he
wants to be, as opposed to the way most people believe he actually was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they going to swing us, or are we going to have to
redial?

MATTHEWS: Well, we`re on here now.

Let me...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

MATTHEWS: Clint, let me ask you about this.

Have you been following his -- the way in which some of the people
supporting this person, this fugitive, have identified him with the words
of Malcolm X, that almost anything goes in a cause?

VAN ZANDT: Yes, I really have, Chris.

I spent last night and the night before reading hundreds of postings on
blog sites about people that were cheering him on, hoping he gets away,
hoping he succeeds, calling him the dark knight against racism.

Chris, this is someone who is suspected to have killed three people, to
include this young woman and a fiance -- and her fiance. And, remember,
the young woman who was killed, her father, an attorney, former police
captain, represented Dorner in his hearings with the LAPD, and that was the
man who said Dorner had been railroaded and did everything he could to
stand behind Dorner. And he still, he still went out and killed this man`s
daughter.

MATTHEWS: Well, it`s horrible.

We`re going to try to get more. Let me go back now. Hang in there, Clint.
We`re going to go back to John Yang for a moment here.

John, this case, just give us a sense of the -- again of the media focus on
this, in some cases, media fascination, if that`s the right word, with this
tragic set of events.

YANG: Well, Chris, this has been dominating. This has been all over the
front pages since Thursday.

Television, local TV has been covering this wall to wall. They have had --
they have come up with titles for this. Our local affiliate, our NBC
station has been calling it "Manifesto for Murder."

This -- they have had local -- they have had break-ins for every -- a lot
of developments, for a lot of false -- what have turned out to be in the
past false alarms, suspected sightings of Dorner that turned out to be
false alarms. This has gripped this entire region. And the search has
been going on from the mountains in -- of the San Bernardino County down to
the border with Mexico south of San Diego. It has covered this entire
corner of the state, and really dominated the news coverage of the past six
days.

MATTHEWS: This symmetry -- I`m trying -- symbiosis between a criminal mind
and the media, it seems so L.A., John.

(LAUGHTER)

YANG: Well, I know. I loved your reference at the top of the show about
the white Bronco chase with O.J. Simpson.

And it also reminds me of the fact that tonight is the State of the Union.
I believe that the verdict was returned on the O.J. civil trial the night
of a State of the Union address, is my recollection. I can remember
sitting up in the House gallery.

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, that`s pure coincidence.

I -- maybe we`re going too far here, but I do sense something here about
this man`s motives and how they seem to be so directed to getting
attention. And that`s not unusual. It`s not unusual in suicide cases of
the normal kind. But, here, you have a barricade suicide thing. It looks
like it`s heading toward that direction, unfortunately, for everyone.

Hold on, John, in Los Angeles.

Let`s go to Dr. Jenn Berman, someone who really knows this subject. he`s a
psychotherapist. He is based in Beverly Hills. He`s read the manifesto of
Christopher Dorner. He`s on top of this.

Thank you. Thank you for joining us.

JENN BERMAN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You`re welcome. And, by the way, I`m a she.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Well, I can tell.

Well, tell us what you can about having read the manifesto and being a
professional in these kind of situations.

BERMAN: Sure. Absolutely.

What I see is a lot of paranoia. And understand, by the way, that just
because you`re paranoid doesn`t mean people aren`t out to get you.

MATTHEWS: Right.

BERMAN: You know, he talks a lot about racism.

And we know looking at his history that he was the only African-American
kid at Norwalk Christian and he felt persecuted starting at an early age.
He describes a lot of incidences where he feels very persecuted.

And this is a guy who feels that he is a martyr. And he feels that his
name has been tarnished. And I think at this point that he feels he`s got
nothing to lose, his name has been tarnished and that he`s very likely,
like you all said, to go down in what he perceives as a blaze of glory.

MATTHEWS: Well, help me out in terms of what condition would you say he`s
in? How would you describe, is it psychosis, is it somebody disturbed by a
horrific incident in their life. I mean, where would you put it? And why
would he choose violence? I mean, that`s the key here. It`s not that we
have a human resources problem.

BERMAN: It`s hard to say.

MATTHEWS: Or a problem with a person`s record. It`s that they`ve resorted
to killing people. That`s why we`re talking about him.

BERMAN: You know, it`s hard to say without personally examining someone
and doing a full -- in order to do a full diagnosis, but, you know,
obviously this is a guy who is mentally ill. And whether it is a result of
a trauma that happened early on in his life or whether this is some kind of
paranoid delusion or paranoid schizophrenia or something like that, it`s
very hard to tell.

But what we do know is this guy is no longer in reality. He`s someone who
has a very strong sense, believe it or not at least in his own mind, a
strong sense of right and wrong, and a black and white thinking. And that
he really feels that he has been wrong and he has nothing to lose. When it
comes to someone who is this violent, once they feel that they have nothing
to lose, that`s when it gets incredibly dangerous.

MATTHEWS: The fact is he may be held for capital punishment at this point
because of shooting a police officer.

But let me ask you about the tribunal he seeks here. He seems to want
publicity. He calls up Charlie Sheen. He`s making mention of people in
the media. He`s doing things to try to arouse attention.

Who is his tribunal? Who does he want to be judged by and thought well by?

BERMAN: I think everybody. I think he feels that he has been wrongly
judged by police officers and now by people -- by the media, by viewers --

MATTHEWS: So, who is he resorting to? Well, who is he resorting to here
in this final perhaps hours of his life? Who knows? Who is he resorting
to in all this media grab here?

BERMAN: When you say resorting to, do you mean who is he reaching out to
or hoping to appeal to?

MATTHEWS: Yes, both. The latter actually.

BERMAN: I think he`s hoping to, in his own perception, to save his name.
That he feels that his name has been wronged and he wants to make sure that
if he goes down, that everyone knows that he was a good guy because in his
perception, believe it or not, he`s a good guy.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

BERMAN: He is seeking justice. He feels like he is completely right in
killing people because he was so wronged.

MATTHEWS: Well, you talk about his high school experience being the only
African-American. And I, being a white person, I have no idea how that
feels like and therefore I say that. I have to say that because it`s a way
to start.

But in the imagination of people, that can be a very miserable experience,
it`s like being a gay kid in a group of straights that are bullying.

BERMAN: Sure, absolutely.

MATTHEWS: It`s the kind of thing you put up because you`re not cool. Or
all kinds of reasons kids have terrible experiences in high school. In
fact, I would argue, you put people under sodium pentothal and most would
say they hated high school.

BERMAN: I agree.

MATTHEWS: Thank you. It`s not the best years of your life, about what
everybody says.

But in this case, with the experience which he has called attention to be
the reason for this kind of emotional horror story here or is it something
very early in his life that probably caused this?

BERMAN: It is probably something very early in his life, but, you know,
typically it`s the perfect storm of events, whether it was a trauma in
childhood and then bullying in high school and then feeling singled out
when he became a police officer and then also we have his divorce in 2007,
which was shortly after he became a police officer, you know, and then
being fired in 2008.

So, he had a series of stressors and probably a series of traumas that
created the perfect storm for him to have this break.

MATTHEWS: And then to choose in his life to be a police officer, to join
our military and serve our country in the Marines, probably the most high-
stress career direction you could take in life for a person who has a
fragility to start with.

BERMAN: Absolutely. And it`s also people who are drawn to that have a
strong sense of right and wrong. They have a strong sense of justice, and
this is a guy who feels that there`s been a terrible injustice committed to
him, and now he needs to right that wrong in his perception.

MATTHEWS: If you had a bull horn right now and you had to address him to
try to relax him and convince him that no matter what he does now, he
should stop killing people, he should stop right now, what would you say --
is there any way to approach a person in these desperate straits?

BERMAN: I would say you`re not going to correct people`s perception of you
or change your good name by being shot and killed or by killing anyone
else.

MATTHEWS: And you think that might work?

BERMAN: Not necessarily. I think this guy is pretty far gone. I think
that he feels a sense of pride. I think it`s very likely he will put
himself in a position where he has to be killed.

MATTHEWS: I was just thinking and always the optimist if you know me, I`m
always the optimist. And I was thinking when he took those people prisoner
in their own home out there in the San Bernardino mountains there, that he
didn`t kill them. He tied them up. That`s more effort than killing
somebody in these horrible situations.

The fact he only feels a vendetta toward police officials, is that a sign
of hope here, that he`s only got one horrendous set of targets, but he`s
not a general killer?

BERMAN: Well, but he killed the daughter --

MATTHEWS: In that situation, I understand.

BERMAN: -- of a police officer and her fiance.

MATTHEWS: In that situation, yes.

BERMAN: Even by association. So, no, I don`t think that anyone is safe
from this man. I think that he will stop at nothing, even though his rage
is really focused at --

MATTHEW: So he`s out of control.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: No one is safe.

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, doctor. It`s great to have you on in these
terrible moments.

BERMAN: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Jen Berman in Beverly Hills.

Jay Obernolte is the mayor of Big Bear Lake, California. The spot we`re
looking at.

Mr. Mayor, thank you.

Can you give us a tense of the top topography, the community we`re talking
about, and the kind of, you know, line shacks or summer -- are these summer
cottages? What kind of homes are out there in that area?

MAYOR JAY OBERNOLTE, BIG BEAR LAKE, CA: Well, if you`re talking about the
area where all the activity is taking place and the suspect is holed up.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

OBERNOLTE: That`s an area called Seven Oaks. It`s about eight miles to
the south of the city of Big Bear Lake. So, it`s an unincorporated area of
the county of San Bernardino and it`s very rural, not very many residents
out there.

MATTHEWS: And so how do you think -- why would a person go out there? Do
you think a person would go out there just because it is so remote? It`s a
place to hide?

OBERNOLTE: Well, no, my understanding was there was a home invasion and a
carjacking up here in the city of Big Bear Lake and then the suspect drove
that vehicle down.

MATTHEWS: And let me ask you about is that largely occupied year round or
is it a summer resort area?

OBERNOLTE: Well, that particular area I`m not 100 percent sure. The city
of Big Bear Lake and the surrounding communities, we have a community of
full-time residents and a larger community of vacation homes.

MATTHEWS: Are there any African-Americans that live there or is it largely
a white community?

OBERNOLTE: There are a few. I don`t think we notice the color of people`s
skin to be honest with you.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, good for you. Let me ask you about the situation for
a police action there. If you were firing on a house out there, would
there be a lot of danger of cross fire hitting other people or is it remote
enough and people isolated from each other in a way they could carry on a
police action that wouldn`t endanger lives?

OBERNOLTE: You know, it`s pretty isolated and we have a lot of faith in
the law enforcement community. They have been highly professional in their
dealings up here and my experience. And so, I have no doubt if there were
any residents that were potentially in danger, they have already gotten
those people out.

MATTHEWS: Have you got any word on which authorities are working there?
Is the sheriff`s department of Los Angeles, are they the police officers
involved right now in the pursuit?

OBERNOLTE: There are many, many different law enforcement communities up
here. I think it`s fair to say the whole world has come crashing down on
Mr. Dorner.

MATTHEWS: Wow. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Mr. Mayor. Sorry
to see this happen in your community.

Let`s go right now back to Andrew Blankstein. He`s joining us right. He`s
covering the Dorner story for "The L.A. Times."

Thank you, sir, for joining us.

What have we missed so far? We`re trying to pick up on a story that`s
local to Los Angeles but it`s become, because of the horrible ending to it
perhaps tonight, it`s become national, perhaps worldwide as a story.

ANDREW BLANKSTEIN, LOS ANGELES TIMES (voice-over): Yes. Well, obviously
it`s kind of got all the twists and turns of any kind of Hollywood drama,
in fact. I mean, the people I talk to say the truth is even stranger than
fiction here. We started last Thursday with -- actually last Wednesday
night with the announcement that the manhunt was on, this Facebook posting
which was compared to a manifesto, the attempted boat robbery in San Diego,
a couple shootouts with officers, including one that killed a Riverside
police officer and gravely wounded another.

And then the search ends -- seems to end in the San Bernardino Mountains.
Everybody was kind of saying he was off the grid, and then today we have
this kind of dramatic moment where he is alleged to have robbed a couple,
taken their truck, and then two fish and wildlife officers with the state
of California see his truck.

There`s a gun battle, and then that turns into what we`re kind of seeing
now in the overhead pictures, the shootout with San Bernardino County
sheriff`s deputies, two are wounded, and that`s where we are right now and
it`s still unfolding.

MATTHEWS: How do you write a story like this that`s objective for the big
metropolitan paper, "The Los Angeles Times"? Are there people in your
newsroom, editors, who were saying, we have to be careful here, it`s not
simple, this man may have a complaint?

BLANKSTEIN: Well, I think we did a story this past Monday that really
looked at the board of rights hearing which seems to be kind of center
stage in his complaints against the LAPD that led to his firing. I mean,
think you have to look at all aspects to be objective. Certainly, you
know, the big story today is what unfolded in this drama in the manhunt.

But that doesn`t preclude other important stories that, what`s the lead-up
to why this happened? And I think we`ve already done a couple stories in
that. And there`s going to be more in the coming days, because I think
certainly the chief of police for the LAPD, Charlie Beck, has heard from
people in the community that are worried about the way the disciplinary --
not only disciplinary system in general, but how this case was handled.

And so this is kind of where we`re heading. But right now we have this
unfolding situation. So I think those will be stories for the coming days
for sure.

MATTHEWS: Of course, the conflict here is even if he was badly handled his
case over the years, you know, unfairly treated, the way he`s reacted to it
shows a man who is unstable to begin with. And I think --

BLANKSTEIN: Well, somebody said, Chris -- somebody said that, you know, it
doesn`t excuse the behavior. It somewhat may explain it.

MATTHEWS: Some may explain, also when you have cases like this, where you
see a person who just goes off the deep end to the horror and tragedy of
many others in this case already, that you have to wonder whether there
wasn`t something in those hearings that may not have been put down on
paper, that suggested there was a real problem with this fella. And not
just with the police department but subsequently with the military that
he`s involved with. Something`s going on here that must have been
detectible at the time.

Let me ask you about "The L.A. Times" tonight. This story, is this going
to be one of the big stories in Los Angeles police history, this one?

BLANKSTEIN: Oh, I think easily. I`ve covered all kinds of stories from
the north Hollywood bank shootout to either the Blake murder trial to -- I
can`t -- it goes back so long I can`t remember them all. But this has to
rank up there in the top three or four if not the top. It`s got all the
twists and turns. It`s got everything.

So, yes, I would say this is kind of uncharted territory.

MATTHEWS: The accusations fairly or not. It would well be fairly unfair,
based on its past history or whatever. You`ve got a highway situation.
You got pursuit situation. You`ve got the media involved.

It`s so big and widespread and vast in its dimensions here. It`s so L.A.
You don`t have this kind of New York or Philadelphia story. This is an
L.A. story. It just looks visually like one.

And good luck --

BLANKSTEIN: I`m an East Coast guy, Chris, and yes. This is kind of an
only in L.A. kind of stuff.

MATTHEWS: Unfortunately, for all you out there. Thank you so much for
joining us.

Let me go back to Clint Van Zandt of the FBI, formerly with of the FBI.
You know, as I said a couple seconds ago, there`s so much to the story.
But in the end, it`s about human beings and these police officers risking
their lives to bring this to an end, Clint.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMERLY WITH THE FBI: It is. We`ve got these two
stories. We`ve got Dorner claiming these allegations of racism within the
police department that we all know L.A. has dealt with that over the years.

But, you know, the justification of killing people to try to get attention,
that`s not going to fly and it shouldn`t fly. No matter what race he is
and no matter what race anyone else is.

The challenge right now, Chris, if you could imagine, if this situation
continues as you suggest he`s barricaded in a cabin. I would tell you,
Chris, he`s probably -- if the fight is still going on, he`s on automatic
pilot right now. As a police officer, as a military combatant, he`s moving
from window to window. He`s firing.

This is -- for some people this would be the ultimate video game. However,
of course, lives are very much in danger right now. Law enforcement by
this time will have this cabin surrounded. Realize, Chris, they`ll try to
talk him out.

As a hostage negotiator, I`d reach out with a bullhorn as you indicated
earlier. But you realize, if you pop up with that bull horn, this guy
apparently will shoot at you. So, law enforcement will probably -- and
we`re not giving away any secrets to these guys if he`s watching TV.
They`ll probably put gas in and try to force him out.

But we also know when his burned out vehicle was found, there was at least
one gas mask inside of that. He may have others.

MATTHEWS: Well, you know, if he`s listening, he shouldn`t kill anybody
else obviously. I don`t know what influence anybody has on him at this
point.

But let me ask you about adrenaline rush. You described the situation of a
man fighting for his life, a circumstance which he created, racing from
window to window. His adrenaline pumping.

Is he in a situation he`s more acutely able to kill somebody? In other
words, you got to be especially careful with a guy that`s ready to kill. I
would think it would be --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: -- at this point. It would be quite dangerous.

VAN ZANDT: Yes. We`re told he already has shot two officers in this
confrontation within the last hour and a half or so. And with this
automatic pilot I think he`s on that law enforcement or people in military,
you go to your training. When you`re being shot at and confronted, right
now, he is a one-man army and he feels he`s standing up against everybody.

And I guarantee you, he doesn`t care what color they are out there. If
they`re in a uniform, they represent who he believes to be the enemy who he
believes to be responsible. And if he happens to take a break and watch
MSNBC, I would say to him -- Christopher, you`ve got one chance to get your
story out. And that`s lay down your weapons and come out and get that
story out.

I hope he listens to a message like that. He`s a smart guy. I don`t know
if he`s smart enough to do that, though, Chris.

MATTHEWS: And there you see the situation, a man with apparently keen
intelligence, media savvy, all those things. Yet trouble beyond
imagination.

And apparently, do you think -- let me ask you as a professional, is he
aiming towards a kind of a suicide death here? Meaning, in the flurry of
bullets he hopes to go down?

VAN ZANDT: Well, he always has the chance to surrender. You can always
put the weapon down and yell, "I`m coming out with my hands up." There are
going to be multiple agencies, no one who`s watching this can say oh, yes,
the police are there. They just want to kill him. They`ll kill him if he
shoots at them, but they`ll also continue to give him the chance to shoot.

Chris, you don`t have much of a chance to say "come out" if bullets are
coming at your head. You shoot back. And that`s the situation these
officers likely find themselves in. This is more like a shootout in
Afghanistan than it is a shootout in the mountains north of L.A.

MATTHEWS: Just while -- we have to end here. Do we know his military
training? He was trained in riflery, right? He knows how to shoot a gun.

VAN ZANDT: Yes. Rifles, handguns. We know he`s had semiautomatic
weapons, he`s had sniper weapons, he`s had multiple pistols. I`ve heard he
has owned up to 50 weapons.

So, the question is how many was he able to bring in that cabin with him?
How much ammunition, how long does he want to hold out before this is
finally resolved? And he`s the one that can resolve it one way or the
other. He can either surrender or he can die inside of that.

Law enforcement will give him the chance to surrender, but they`re not
going to jeopardize the life of any more law enforcement officers.

MATTHEWS: Let`s go through the casualties so far. Police officer killed.
The daughter and fiance of a former police captain killed. Two wounded
people as well.

This guy, if he gets taken into custody, will be held for capital murder
probably. He`s probably going to face capitol punishment, is that fair to
say? Is that always up to the discretion of the judge?

VAN ZANDT: I think that`s fair to say. I think that`s what he would
likely assume in his mind.

Now, the question is also in his mind, would he like a scenario where he
gets a chance to stand up in court and talk about the alleged acts of
racism that took place when he was a child, when he was in the P.D.,
perhaps when he was in the military. That would give him a forum to stand
up and say it.

If he goes out in a blaze of glory, the headlines are in tomorrow`s paper
and it`s over with. If he stands up -- if he wants to stand up and say I`m
going to right the wrong that I believe is out there --

MATTHEWS: OK.

VAN ZANDT: -- this is his chance to do it right now.

If he`s listening, if he`s watching, he needs to take that chance,
otherwise his death will serve no purpose and the people he killed were
just terribly innocent victims.

MATTHEWS: I`m glad you said that. I hope he heard it. Thanks so much,
Clint Van Zandt, an expert in this situation. We`re going back now to
KNBC, our affiliate station in Los Angeles.

REPORTER: -- been asked to pull back, not only for the safety of the
responding officers on the ground, chopper 4, all media choppers for that
matter, have been asked to pull back not only for the safety of the
responding officers on the ground who are involved in an active shootout,
an active standoff. But also for the safety of those helicopters and the
reporters up in the sky as who knows where those bullets could be flying.

KNBC-TV ANCHOR: And we had heard as well that at least 40 SWAT officers
are being mobilized and headed into the area. They may have arrived on
scene by now.

John is at that road block we`re referring to on highway 38. John, are you
there?

REPORTER: Yes, guys. We`re right at the intersection of Bryant Street and
Highway 38. You were talking about the SWAT officers. We saw them load up
and head out straight up the mountainside there, a lot of officers that
have been standing by here. We showed you live pictures earlier. You saw
so many going up there.

You also saw as cars were coming down, they`re trying to go through each
one of those cars, too, to make sure Christopher Dorner isn`t hiding in one
of those. Some updated information we have from the scene. Again, the
SWAT team just went up. We saw an armored vehicle from a different agency
actually. (INAUDIBLE) was one of them, passed us on the freeway here. We
ended seeing them up there. They have headed their way up.

We are about, 10 miles up Highway 38, 20 miles south of where all of this
is apparently happening. So, a lot of activity still here. And you can
see the officers that are armed very heavily, stopping any vehicle that
comes through, making sure that Dorner is not in there if they`re coming
down. And anybody who`s heading up they`re stopping here, talking to them
before they can let them continue on up Bryant Street.


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