updated 3/25/2013 12:20:14 PM ET 2013-03-25T16:20:14

THE ED SHOW with ED SCHULTZ
March 22, 2013

Guests: Michael Moore, Rev. Jesse Jackson

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GUEST HOST: Good evening, Americans. Welcome to
THE ED SHOW. I`m Eric Michael Dyson, in for Ed Schultz.

After a decade of war, we`re still uncovering all lies that led us
into conflict with Iraq.

It turns out union-busting Governor John Kasich won`t support civil
unions either.

The CEO of Starbucks serves up support for minimum wage increase.

And Reverend Jesse Jackson joins me on the crisis in the Chicago
public schools.

But first, more than 10 years after his documentary "Bowling for
Columbine," I`ll ask Michael Moore why the need for gun control is even
more urgent.

This is THE ED SHOW -- and as Ed would say -- let`s get to work.

(MUSIC)

DYSON: We begin with an image that has been circulating the web this
week. It`s a pair of glasses smeared with blood. People have been sharing
this photo because the glasses belong to John Lennon. He was wearing them
when he was gunned down outside of his apartment building.

Lennon`s wife Yoko Ono tweeted the image on what would have been their
44th wedding anniversary, along with this grim statistic: over 1,057,000
people have been killed by guns in the United States since John Lennon was
shot and killed on December 8th, 1980.

The tweet has gotten thousands and thousands of retreats but perhaps
most notably, that statistic and that image got a retweet from the
president of the United States, Barack Obama.

It`s been a tough week for folks who believe we need do something
about guns in this country. On Thursday, it was announced that Dianne
Feinstein`s assault weapons ban would be dropped. We learned that it
didn`t matter that the majority of Americans support the ban. The proposal
couldn`t make it past the U.S. Senate.

Senate Majority Leader Reid said he doesn`t have the votes. He didn`t
have the Republican votes. He didn`t have the Democratic votes and no
amount of public shaming could change that fact.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NEIL HESLIN, SON KILLED IN NEWTOWN: Quite honestly, I`m really
ashamed to see that Congress doesn`t have the guts to stand up, and make a
change and put a ban on these type of weapons and universal background
checks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: With the assault weapons ban out of picture for the time
being, the focus is now on those universal background checks. The
overwhelming majority of Americans are for universal background checks, 88
percent of voters say they support these checks according to the latest
polling from Quinnipiac.

As for gun owners, 85 percent of gun owners support background checks.
Late last night, Senate majority Harry Reid -- Majority Leader Harry Reid
announced the Senate will soon began considering a package of gun safety
bills, including a proposal to expand background checks.

Reid issued this statement, "I want to be clear: in order to be
effective, any bill that passes the Senate must include background checks."

A welcome statement but Senator Chuck Schumer is still searching for
Republican co-sponsor.

Then there`s the question of the House. Speaker John Boehner hinted
at support earlier this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN: Do you think background checks and improving
background checks might be part of that?

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: They should actually
do a real background check on everyone. And maybe the Department of
Justice ought to enforce the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: But you know the deal, Boehner`s office back tracked the next
day, issuing the clarification that the speaker misspoke.

In the meantime, the death toll from gun violence continues to climb
in America. Today, there was news after U.S. marine shooting, killing two
colleagues then killing himself in Quantico, Virginia.

In Texas, police shot and killed a man suspected of killing Colorado`s
prison chief earlier this week. The man, Evan Spencer Ebel, he had a long
rap sheet and ties to a white supremacist group in Colorado prisons.

And then there`s the story of 13-month-old Antonio Santiago. Antonio
was with his mother, asleep in a stroller, just yards from their home in
Brunswick, Georgia, when two teenagers approached them, demanding money.
Antonio`s mother told the teens she had no money. When the teens
threatened her, she begged them to spare her baby`s life.

The teens shot her twice, and then shot Antonio in the head, killing
him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERRY WEST, MOTHER OF SLAIN INFANT: He said, "I`m going to kill you
if you don`t give me your money," and I said, "I swear, I don`t have any."
And I put my arms over my baby, and he shoves me, and then he shot my baby
right in the head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think.

Tonight`s question: will Congress listen to the country`s overwhelming
support for background checks? Text A for yes, text B for no, to 67622, or
go to our blog at Ed.MSNBC.com. I`ll bring you the results later in the
show.

Joining me now is documentary filmmaker Michael Moore. Brother Moore,
welcome to the show.

MICHAEL MOORE, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: Thank you, Michael.

I -- it`s kind of rough watching that videotape of the mother.

DYSON: Oh my God.

MOORE: And it just -- you know, I want it say something too about the
John Lennon, Yoko, sending out the statistic that over a million people
have been killed by guns in this country since John Lennon was killed.

And I remember thinking a few years after that, George Harrison, if
you remember, was also attacked in his home. He was asleep in his bed.

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: But the intruder had a knife, because it`s really hard to get
a hold of a gun in Great Britain. And they were able to wrestle the guy
out of bed and George`s wife bopped him with a lamp.

And I remember thinking that night, that the only reason that George
Harrison is alive tonight, and John Lennon is dead, is because John Lennon
chose to live in the United States of America.

DYSON: Wow.

MOORE: He wanted to be one of us. He wanted to be an American. And
this happens, not only to him, as Yoko points out, but to so many others --
murder, suicide, accidental guns going off.

Just -- it`s -- I want to -- can I just say something else, too?

DYSON: Absolutely.

MOORE: I don`t we don`t have -- we`re on an agenda here.

DYSON: That`s all right.

MOORE: It is the first time I`ve been able to talk to you on TV like
this. So I`m honored to do that.

DYSON: Thank you, my friend.

MOORE: I want to -- I want to clear this up about how I really feel
about gun control laws. I don`t believe that the gun control laws that we
want to pass, and I want it pass, and I`m fighting very hard for them,
that`s not really going to change the problem.

And nobody on our side really I think wants to say that sometimes
because we want -- well, yes, it will all go way.

Well, it really won`t all go away because -- you know, in my movie
"Bowling for Columbine", which the right wing attacks and the NRA attacks
and I`m on their enemies list, they`ve never seen the movie, because if
they`ve seen the point I made in the film was -- that I actually kind of
agree with the NRA that guns don`t kill people. Except I change their
slogan to, guns don`t kill people, Americans kill people.

We`re the ones who do this.

Those Canadian --

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: -- those Canadian kids tonight, on Friday night, living up
there in Toronto or Vancouver, Sudbury, they are playing the same violent
video games that are played in this country.

It`s not -- any of the stuff that we are talking about, there is
something wrong with the American character and that -- until we ultimately
get to that, as to why we believe as society and officially as government
that violence is a means to an end, that violence is OK to solve our
problems, if we think somebody might have some weapons of mass destruction,
it`s OK to go and invade their country and kill hundreds of thousands of
civilians.

If we -- if someone has committed a crime, we`re one of the few
countries left -- I think it`s North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, that still
have the death penalty. One of the few countries left. We believe it`s OK
to kill a human being whose committed a crime.

We believe societal-wise and our gender-wise, that it`s OK to strike a
woman. A woman is hit, physically abused every 15 seconds in this country.
That`s where we live, Michael.

And, you know, as I said in my last movie, you know, I refuse to live
in a country like this and I`m not leaving.

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: So if I`m not leaving, something`s got to change.

DYSON: Well, let me ask you.

MOORE: Yes, I`m sorry.

DYSON: Let me ask you this -- no, no. It`s very powerful.
Obviously, the obsession with violence has marked America in a way that it
does not characterized other societies in terms of the impact, the
consequence and difference is that they -- we have guns, and we have ready
access to guns and those guns flood our society and those guns have big
magazines and big drums and big clips and we are able to repeatedly shoot a
bullet into a person and kill them and kill masses of people, whereas in
Britain, as you talked about, with George Harrison, a knife attack was far
less likely, to result in murder.

So what is it about America? You talk about the character of America,
but what is it about us that makes us to dogged and insistent on having
access as guns as the Second Amendment, worshipping it. We act like it`s
the Second Commandment, not the Second Amendment.

So what is it about us that makes us so obsessed with that that we are
willing to see this as the necessary sacrifice, the loss of millions of
lives as the necessary sacrifice, to possess those guns?

MOORE: Fear -- fear and racism. That`s what distinguishes us from
the other countries because -- make no mistake about it, Germany and Japan,
I would say, they, in the past have had a culture of violence and have been
into murdering a lot of people, and using violence as means. We`re not the
only one in history who has done that. All right?

There is a lot of -- you know, the Norwegians, which probably one of
the most peaceful countries, which had a very sad massacre last year. But,
you know, they are the descendants of the Vikings. So, it`s not just that.

The thing that`s different with us, is that our powers that be, our
corporate chieftains, our politicians, have for years figured out the
American psyche, that we are just -- we are an afraid people and we have
been afraid for a long time. We were afraid of the native people when we
landed here. So what did we have to do? Get rid of them.

You know, we were afraid of slave uprisings and rebellions, so we had
to make sure that they had no anywhere any access to weapons or whatever.
On and on and on through history, this fear and manipulation.

You turn on the 11:00 news tonight, on any local station. I`m telling
you, to the first three stories, tonight, a drive-by shooting in Brooklyn.
Tonight, it`s like -- oh, my God. Oh, my God. This is what you`re
supposed to sit there at home and just be -- I can`t say it --

DYSON: Right, right, I gotcha.

MOORE: But you know what I`m saying.

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: And we`re scared out of our minds.

And here is the interesting statistic. When my movie came out, I
would ask groups, I said, do you realize that over 90 percent of guns are
owned by white people, in the suburbs and in rural areas. Ninety percent
of our guns are not by African-Americans, Hispanics, minority groups. They
are owned by white people.

Now, what are these white people so afraid of out in the suburbs? Are
they thinking little red-head, freckle-faced Jimmy down the street is going
to, you know, kill them, mug them? I don`t think so.

Are they afraid the guy next door is going to break in and steal their
TV? No, because they know the guy next door makes $50,000, $60,000 a year.

So, poverty and racism, you know, most of our gun shootings
essentially coming from two groups. The poor, the sort of the official
group of poor people that we will not ever change, it seems, you know, find
so much violence in their neighborhoods and then people who are just
insane.

Now, history, we`ve always had insane people. As you just said, so if
you got -- for the insane people, you want to make it as hard for them as
possible to get their hand on a gun, or if they get a gun, they fire it as
few times as possible.

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: For the group that we never talk about in this, we have these
big shows after school shootings and whatever, but actually most of the
violence that people are dying are African-Americans, and Hispanics and
poor people. If we ever addressed that problem, if we ever made it so that
Chicago, or east L.A. or Detroit were places that were thriving, where we
have jobs, and people were paid a middle class wage, what`s the chance of
you walking home tonight in your middle class neighborhood and being shot
by somebody with a handgun? Very, very small.

DYSON: Right.

So given the fact you talk about this, Professor David Cole (ph), my
colleague at Georgetown Law School speaks of this as well, eloquently as
you have done here, that when black and Latino kids die, we are willing to
accept that as necessary price we pay for access to these guns. But when
it begins to bleed out into suburban America and where white kids began to
be victimized by this vicious culture of resentment and retaliation, and
this brewing subculture of disaffection and alienation from America,
expressed in many ways and from traditional culture, so how do we come to
grips with that?

We allow it to happen in the ghetto. But we don`t want it to happen
in the suburb but now, we can`t quarantine it any more, what`s the answer
to the problem we confront together now?

MOORE: The answer is like it`s pretty much the same answer for a lot
of other problems. Jobs. Jobs.

You know, in countries like Canada, or France or Great Britain, they
have a social safety net. It`s not that they don`t have unemployment, they
do. But they know it is in their best interest not to let people fall
between the cracks, because then that makes everybody less safe.

So really, for selfish reasons, they have a social safety net that
catches people. That looks to train them. Provide jobs. The government
provides jobs. They do any of the number of things and that`s why if you
have ever traveled to Canada, if you walked down the street at midnight in
Toronto, let me tell you, you don`t feel the same way when you do walking
down the street in downtown Detroit.

And why is that? Because the Canadians are just human beings. They
are no better than you or I. So, what is that? Why do they get to do
that? What is it about them and what can we learn from them?

DYSON: Right. Well, when we talk about learning something from them.
Obviously, you believe that nothing change nets ten years since you made
"Bowling for Columbine." You faced the culture, you faced tremendous
opposition.

You were assaulted. You were attacked. People called you everything
but a child of God. The vituperation of the right wing was evident and
some of the resistance from liberals who didn`t understand why you were so
direct about it.

Do you think looking back, you were prophetic and that your movie is
just as relevant today as it was 10 years ago?

Maybe --

DYSON: Well, I thinking about this, because I think -- on a personal
level, I feel like I failed. I made that movie to try and stop this
madness after Columbine. And you know, probably like all filmmakers or
documentary filmmakers, we think that world will change.

So, I just -- the fact that it is relevant, the fact -- I mean, people
say, Mike, why don`t you make a sequel? I`m going, are you kidding? The
movie is the same. It`s the same movie I would make tonight.

It saddens me. But I`ll tell you, I`m not paralyzed by it. I`m as
pissed as of and I`m willing to join with the majority of my fellow
Americans, the 303 million of us who are not members of the National Rifle
Association.

We`re with the majority. We are the majority that want the laws
passed and majority that want us to stop invading other countries, and
we`re the majority that do not like it when violence against women acts are
held up for years. That`s us -- me, you, the people watching. We`re the
majority.

DYSON: All right.

MOORE: And it`s time that minority, the right wing of this country,
you`ve had your time, you`ve had your day, you haven`t made us a better
country. We`re far worse off than when I was a child.

So step aside. We`re here now and we`re going to figure this out.
And please, our leaders that we elected, President Obama, Harry Reid and
others, buck up, man! Buck up! And do your job.

DYSON: All right.

MOORE: Do your job.

DYSON: All right.

MOORE: You are representing us.

DYSON: That`s from paralysis to being P.O.`d. The (INAUDIBLE)
expressed here tonight by Michael Moore.

Stay with us, Mr. Moore. We`re going to continue this conversation.

MOORE: It`s what they say.

DYSON: I want you to stay. This is great.

We`ll also talk about the Iraqi war when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Michael Moore joins me once again to discuss the intense gun
debate and of more.

And later, a huge blow to students and teachers in Chicago. The
Reverend Jesse Jackson will weigh in on the ripple effect of minority
student.

Make sure to join Ed Schultz in his new time slot, 5:00 to 7:00,
Saturday and Sunday coming soon.

Share your thoughts with us on Facebook and on Twitter, using #EdShow.
We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Welcome back.

I`m joined again by documentary filmmaker and American rebel rouser to
the great degree, Michael Moore.

You know, Michael, before we went to break, you were speaking about
the minority in this country, the NRA, and their ilk, who are basically
running and ruining this country, and in some sense de-capacitating great
Americans from going their job.

Why isn`t it that these politicians cannot stand up, show vertebra and
say to the NRA, we don`t care about the consequences, you will no longer
dictate policy? Because after Sandy Hook, we thought this would change.
We thought the needle would move. We thought Americans would be so
motivate to transform a gun culture, where as Gary Wells says, we worship
the gun.

But it seems we have fallen back into the same cul-de-sac of
conscienceless abdication to the small minority. Tell us what we can do to
girth up our loins to fight them.

MOORE: OK. We all realize that one of our problems is that the
politicians in Washington, D.C. are a bunch of D-bags, if I can say that.
And we`re sick and tired of them.

All kind of people are sick and tired of these guys not doing their
job.

I`m especially unhappy with Democrats who don`t have the courage of
their convictions to stand up for this, to stand up of what the majority
want.

And I got to say, you know, the Republicans, if this was reversed,
they would just -- if they wanted an assault weapon`s ban because that`s
what they believed in, they would be merciless about it.

DYSON: Filibustering, doing everything.

MOORE: Oh, my God, they would do everything. Our side is like, well
-- Harry Reid, I`m going to do my Harry Reid impersonation.

Well, we don`t have the votes so I don`t want it bring it up because
it won`t pass.

I mean, that`s as crazy as the Detroit Lions getting kickoff and then
the guy looks with 80 yard to go but the San Francisco 49ers are coming at
him and he`s like what is the point of even running down the field. I`m
not going make it. I`m a Detroit Lion.

DYSON: Especially since we have Reggie Bush now, we`re going to be in
good shape.

MOORE: Yes, that`s what we always say. It is always going to be
better.

But I think seriously though, that the reason that in the past, with
Columbine, with Aurora, with Virginia Tech, people forget about it after a
few weeks and we move on to whatever else. People are not moving on now.
They are not moving on after Newtown.

And I think the reason is, and I can tell by the mail I get, there are
too many parent who everyday drive their kids to school, and they open the
door and this is what -- I mean, I`ve got this, more than a dozen times
from mothers writing me and saying -- I now when they open the door and I
see them walk down the sidewalk into the school, I am sick that I have to
feel like, is that last time I`m going to see my child?

DYSON: Yes.

MOORE: And because of that, because sense school went back into
session after Christmas, after Newtown, since January, millions of moms and
dads have been dropping their kids off at school everyday and in the backs
of their mind, they know where they live. They live in the United States
of America, where an insane person can go buy a drum that can fit a hundred
rounds of ammo in it.

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: They know that and they know that their child is at risk.
That`s why this issue isn`t going to go away. That`s why the politicians
who are fighting this are going to be in trouble because the parents are
going to revolt. They are going to say, enough is enough.

It may not happen right now. And the question that I asked Harry
Reid, I tweeted him the other night, I said, harry, just so we could save
some time, just give me a number. How many kids is it going to take to be
massacred before you`re going to stand up and fight for what the majority
of the people want? Just give me a number, 50 kids, 50 more, 500 more
kids?

Whatever the number is, just tell me how many dead massacred
dismembered children will it take? Because I know there`s a number.
There`s a number where you and everybody else will go, that`s it. Game
over. NRA, out!

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: This is our country. That`s going to happen. I wish it would
happen now. And not after the next Newtown, which will happen in the next
month, and we all know it. We all know we went get through another month
without this.

(CROSSTALK)

DYSON: Right.

Let me ask you this question. Yesterday in Israel, President Obama
made reference to his 2008 hope/change campaign, so to speak, when he says,
let`s be the change we`re looking for, and he say, I can tell you this
because I know it, that unless politicians are pushed, we will not do the
right thing. A, do you think we pushed Obama far enough in terms of being
aggressive in regard to this gun control issue? And B, how can people
voice their outrage when we have leaders like Harry Reid, good honorable
men who feel they are beholden to either the Republican vote that won`t
agree with them or NRA lobby which is so fiercely contested them that they
feel helpless?

MOORE: The American people went crazy the other night when Harry Reid
did that. And he`s now -- he`s walked back his position. And then, today,
now, he said he is going to let the assault weapons ban come up for a vote.
So, he did change in just 48 hours when he saw the anger of the American
people.

Barack Obama, my personal belief, I`ve never met the man, I think he
has a good heart. I think he has a conscience. You only have to look at
his kids and his wife to know there is something good going on in that
house.

But he`s right, he won`t do it on his own. He won`t do it unless he
feels like we have his back.

When Franklin Roosevelt was elected to his first term, he brought in
all the people, the activist groups that wanted to have Social Security and
unemployment insurance --

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: -- and minimum wage, and he said to them --

DYSON: A. Philip Randolph --

MOORE: Yes, and civil rights. He said to all of them, I agree with
all of your positions. I want all of your things. But I`m going to have
to tell you something, I`m not going to be able to do it. And, in fact,
I`m not going to do it. You`re going to have to make me do it. He said
that to them, make me do it.

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: So fellow Americans, that`s our job. If we are calling
ourselves citizens, that means we are participants in democracy. It`s not
that they sit back and they sit in some hall some place.

We`re the ones in charge. They are our servant. They are there to
serve us. If they don`t hear from us, then you know, who is going to win
out are the money people. The gun manufacturers, national rifle
association, people that grease the palms. That`s who`s going to win out.

But I got to tell you, here`s what the NRA is scared about tonight and
the gun manufacturers. There`s a lot more of us than there are of them.

DYSON: No doubt. Right. So they won`t be able to hold us hostage.

MOORE: No.

DYSON: Let`s talk about something else you`re doing, because I want
to get this in. First I thought you were making house party part 4 but I
discovered that`s not what is going on. You are going to hold house
parties.

Tell us what that is about and what the madness, you know, the motive
and method behind your madness is. Tell us why you`re doing that and what
you hope to achieve.

MOORE: I`m certain the hoodlum (ph) brothers are completely behind me
in doing this. But tomorrow night, all across America, in thousands, maybe
tens of thousands, I don`t know the exact number now, in homes, people`s
living rooms, people are coming together with friend, families and
neighborhoods to watch "Bowling for Columbine", then we will have a live,
online, town hall meetings, nationwide town hall meeting that will stream
from a theater live here in New York. And people at home can text or type
or tweet in questions. They can join the discussion, and I`m going to have
on my panel of a spectrum of people.

And we`re not just going to talk about this anymore. We`re going to -
- we`re going to discuss the specific things that we can do.

So, the idea is tomorrow night, we`ll -- East Coast, we`re doing at
7:00 p.m. and the discussion will take place live at 9:00 p.m. online. You
can go to MoveOn.org`s Web site.

DYSON: All right.

MOORE: You can go to my Web site and get information too.

If anybody watching would like to call up a couple friends and watch,
"Bowling for Columbine", Netflix is helping us out and making it available
for free tomorrow night. Even if you`re not on Netflix, they`ll let you
watch it for free tomorrow tonight. Just go to our site and click the
button.

So, you can -- everybody can watch this at home. And then we can have
this discussion. Don`t wait or think that somebody else is going to do
this for us. We don`t have a group as great as the Brady Campaign and all
these groups are. We don`t have anything comparable to the NRA.

All we have is our numbers, which is 303 million, who are not members
of their organization.

DYSON: All right.

Well, Michael, we want more. More of Michael Moore. So, stick
around. We want your thoughts on the tenth anniversary of the Iraq war and
much more.

Stay tuned. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Michael Moore will rejoin us in a moment. We just passed the
10 year anniversary of the Iraq War. And MSNBC`s documentary "Hubris" will
re-air after this show.

The Bush administration was keen on using questionable intelligence in
an authoritative manner in the run up to the war. In one instance, there
was a Czech intelligence report from Prague of a photo allegedly showing
Mohammed Attah meeting with high ranking Iraqi intelligence officers.

But the man in the photograph did not look like Mohammed Attah in the
least.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The guy in the photograph was muscular and thick
and had a neck the size of two of my necks. And that`s not Mohammed Attah
in the photograph. But send it to the lab anyway. In mind, the matter was
put to bed.

DICK CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the final
analysis --

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC ANCHOR: But even without definitive evidence,
the vice president goes public with it.

CHENEY: It`s been pretty well confirmed that he did go to Prague and
he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in
Czechoslovakia last April.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was sitting in my den, in my home in Washington,
D.C. And I remember looking at the TV screen saying, what did I just hear?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: The 10-year milestone was greeted in various ways. Former
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld Tweeted "10 years ago began the long
difficult work of liberating 25 million Iraqis. All who played in a role
in history deserve our respect and appreciation."

I`m joined again by documentary filmmaker Michael Moore. Michael, we
are going to get into Iraq very quickly. But very, very briefly, you know,
Twitter-verse is lit up by saying all you guys are so unfair, because we
know President Obama doesn`t control legislation; it`s the Republican House
that does.

Why don`t you tell us, yes, the Republicans need do things, but is
there more that Barack Obama can do to, President Obama can do to use his
bully pulpit to push this issue forward?

MOORE: Yes, and he knows it. Social Security happened because of
Franklin Roosevelt. I don`t think you can name anybody in Congress back
then who was responsible for Social Security. The Civil Rights and the
Voting Rights Act in `64 and `65 were because Lyndon Johnson took those
southern Democrats and others literally by the ears and said, you are going
to vote for this. I`m the president, people want it, this is right, end of
story. Go out there and vote for it.

That`s what a leader does. And Obama, ,he -- President Obama, I
really think he just has to really get his game on here and start kicking
some butt, because the people will be behind him if he does.

DYSON: All right. So even though the Republicans have shown no
willingness to negotiate with him on anything else, you think this has to
be an effort he`s got to make?

MOORE: Absolutely. I think -- I don`t want our side to be constantly
whining and complaining, oh, it`s the Republicans. Hey, we`re in charge.
We`re the majority of this country. The majority of the country believes
in just about everything that we believe in on the left or if you are a
liberal. The majority of the country believes in gay marriage. The
majority of the country wants stronger environmental laws.

The majority of the country wants equal pay for women. The majority
of the country does not want us invading other countries. We`re the
majority. They are the minority. And they are on their way out. When you
look at that poll this week on gay marriage, where it said like 57 percent
of the country now supports it, 81 percent of 18 to 29-year-olds support
gay marriage.

That`s the future. That`s what`s coming along here. That`s why I
remain somewhat crazily optimistic, because I think these young people are
going to come along and the old way, the bigoted way, is going to die off.

And can I also just echo what you said about Rachel`s documentary,
coming up? This is an incredible, incredible film. Please watch it right
after the show here. Tape it. DVR it. Bootleg it. Get it around to as
many people --

DYSON: Something like crack on the corner. Right, right. So look,
10 years on, after this war, speaking of Rachel and speaking of "Hubris"
and speaking Michael Isikoff and the tremendous work done on this issue,
what do you think, you know, comes to your mind? What leads to your mind
about where we are and what we did 10 years ago and what we are likely to
do or not do again in light of that -- the lessons we learned or we failed
to learn?

MOORE: Well, I think -- I know most Americans, by every poll, believe
that this was a horrible, horrible thing, this war. It wasn`t a mistake.
As you will see in Rachel`s documentary, they knew exactly what they were
doing. This was willful deceit. And it is the worst crime I think a
person can commit, to lie to a whole nation of people in order to send
their sons and daughters off to war.

That is just the most despicable thing. And I hope in my lifetime
that there is criminal justice here when it comes to Cheney and Bush and
Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and the whole gang of them.

DYSON: Right. Well, a dying war veteran, Thomas Young, wrote a
letter to Bush and Cheney and here is part of it. "You may have evade
justice, but in our eyes, you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of
plunder and finally of murder, including the murder of thousands of young
Americans, my fellow veterans whose future you stole."

There will be no resolution through prosecution, will there, Michael?

MOORE: Well, I never thought that a man in prison named Nelson
Mandela would be president of South Africa, did you? Did you ever think
you would see the Berlin come down in your lifetime? I mean, stranger
things have happened for the good. And that is the amazing thing about
human beings. Eventually we get it right and we make things a little bit
better.

So I do hope -- because see, if we don`t prosecute them, then it just
tells presidents in the future that they can literally get away with
murder. We have -- the only way you can send a message to future criminals
is to tell them and show them what`s going to happen to them if they do
such a thing. So --

DYSON: Do you think it was a wrong move for the Obama administration,
upon coming into office, to say, look, we`re not going to be stuck on the
past; we`re not going to be obsessed with what George Bush`s regime or
administration did; we are going to move forward?

Do you think we missed an opportunity to address the reaction that
Americans had to that war and to the potential illegalities that were
involved there?

MOORE: That was a very wrong headed position for President Obama to
take. When you say we don`t want to be stuck in the past, those 32,000
veterans who are missing arms and legs because of Afghanistan and Iraq, the
past is going to live with them for quite a while, isn`t it? The families
who lost almost 4,500 soldiers in the Iraq war, the past is going to stay
with them for quite a while.

So to lecture us about how we don`t want to live if the past, there
are thousands of Americans who are going to have to live in the past, the
past mistakes, the past crimes, the past "Hubris," to borrow Rachel`s term.
And I just wish -- I wish that we would do something about it. And I don`t
know.

I just keep remaining optimistic, I guess.

DYSON: All right. That kind of optimism has certainly been tonic for
the souls of so many millions of Americans who are grateful to you, Michael
Moore.

MOORE: Thank you. And hey, thanks for the third segment here. I
rarely get a third segment. I took my hat off for you, just for getting --
I just want to point out too, somebody Tweeted in, what does it say on the
hat. It says "Dead Sea Fishing Club." And it was given to me by the
residents of a Palestinian village on the West Bank. They just wanted me
to just to remind everybody that they are human beings too.

DYSON: No doubt about it. President Obama said that yesterday, you
reinforcing that point makes an incredible statement about the breath of
our humanity and depth of our compassion for all people in this world.
Michael Moore, thank you so much for staying with us.

MOORE: Thank you, Michael.

DYSON: The CEO of Starbucks support raising the minimum wage. But
will the increase keep the coffee chain`s profits in the black? Stay
tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Millions of Americans line up to
grab a cup of Starbucks coffee every morning. Now the head of that global
giant seems to favor helping his customers more easily afford a cup of his
coffee. Starbucks` CEO Howard Schultz already offers healthcare to all of
his employees and has launched a pro-jobs effort to aid small businesses in
America.

Now the coffee mogul is showing signs he supports an increase in the
federal minimum wage. Schultz talked about it CNBC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD SCHULTZ, STARBUCKS CEO: On balance, I`m a supporter of the
minimum wage going up, but I think we have to be very, very careful and be
careful what we wish for, because some employers, and it could be a lot of
them, will be scared away from hiring new people or creating incremental
hours for part-time people, as a result of that wage going up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: To be sure, economist are split on how an increase in minimum
wage would affect job growth. But many of the same economists also think
it would be worth it for the economy. Big employers like Schultz and
Costco`s CEO Craig Jelinek know more money in the pockets of Americans mean
they move for product.

On some corporate CEOs, they want to raise the minimum wage.
President Obama wants to raise the minimum wage. And over 70 percent of
Americans want to raise the minimum wage.

Get the theme here? Get the consistency? It`s time for the
Republicans to wake up and smell the coffee.

Tonight in our survey, I asked you, will Congress listen to the
country`s overwhelming support for background checks. Sixteen percent say
yes; 84 percent say no.

Coming up, Chicago parents protest the country`s biggest school
closure. The Reverend Jesse Jackson joins me on the impact on students.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: In the Big Finish tonight, something that has never happened
before in U.S. history. Chicago public school officials announced a plan
to close 54 schools next year. It will be the most sweeping school closure
ever. Parents protested and opponents say the closures will
disproportionately affect minority students.

The closures are the inevitable results, some say, of the teacher`s
strike, which placed Mayor Rahm Emanuel at odds with many educators. The
teacher`s strike drew national attention and became a whipping post of
Republicans like then presidential candidate Mitt Romney.

Chicago Teacher`s Union President Karen Lewis said this about the
planned closures: "our mayor, who was away on a ski trip, drops this
information a week before spring break. He should be ashamed of himself."

Let`s bring in the Reverend Jesse Jackson, president of the Rainbow
Push Coalition. Reverend Jackson, welcome to the show.

REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW PUSH COALITION PRESIDENT: Michael, let me
say quickly, I have enjoyed watching you all week. I could get used to
watching "Politics Nation" about this time every night. So keep it going,
man.

DYSON: Thank you so much, Reverend Jackson. Look, sir, you are the
perfect person to ask this. These school closings, are they really the
only way to close the budget gap in Chicago, when they are
disproportionately hurting and targeting minority students?

JACKSON: I`m not convinced of that. Sometimes it may be 35; the
school board now says 54. So the sheer volume is an issue. But I think
that, Michael, poverty, race disparity, balance and fee is driving this
agenda. And people are traumatized by the announcement. We do not know
where this experiment really is going.

DYSON: Well, is it fair to blame it on the teacher`s strike, the
reason that these schools are now closing? Do you think this is a kind of
punitive measure by the powers that be, to target them?

JACKSON: No, that`s totally unfair. As a matter of fact, one thing
the teachers had raised was there were 140 schools without a library. And
most of them were in the black and brown communities. They were talking
about access to books and the like, and access to computers and classroom
sizes.

So I think what we are really paying for in all these is a two
trillion dollars misappropriatation on the war and the tax cut. Now cities
are paying for the schools struggling in Chicago, Detroit, on (inaudible)
on democracy. We are paying a big price for that misstep in Iraq and
Afghanistan.

DYSON: Yes, sir. Well, the African novelist Chinua Achebe, who died
today at 82 years old -- rest in peace -- wrote a book "Things Fall Apart,"
of course hearkening back to William Butler Yates. Is this an example of
things falling apart? Is this a done deal? Or is there still a chance
that these closings can be forestalled?

JACKSON: Well, protests matter. First of all, this is an experiment.
I mean, the sheer size, 54 schools, where kids are having to go across gang
zones -- we have lost -- last year nearly 600 of our youth were killed,
whether high profile killings -- there`s the fear of run across what is now
known as gang zones.

We have the crisis -- without an urban policy that`s defined of drugs
in, guns in, jobs out and home foreclosures. Somewhere in the middle of
that is a devaluation of a school tax base for education. So it can`t just
be this. It`s the school, the job, the poverty, the race disparity, the
violence and the fear. It`s a many legged stool, Michael.

DYSON: Reverend Jackson, is what`s happening in Chicago indicative of
where we are setting our priorities across the country? Because they seem
to be awfully misled, and they don`t seem to support public education.

JACKSON: Well, that`s true in certainly Philadelphia. It`s true in
Newark. It`s true in Memphis. We simply at this point, while focusing on
fiscal cliff and debt ceiling and sequestration, the real focus on poverty,
the spread of violence and some plan for urban reconstruction -- I am
rather convinced that the bank that made money off of the schemes of sub
prime lending and predatory lending, they will not -- they`re not going to
bailout these citizens.

We need to develop some kind of a long-term low interest development
bank. Marshal Plan was a 50 year loan at two percent government secured.
There needs to be some plan other than closing schools in Chicago and
Philadelphia and putting Detroit on the czar. That is no urban policy,
whatsoever. There must be a plan for economic regeneration.

Right now, our focus is not that. You think about two trillion
dollars on the wrong target in Iraq. You think about the government
surplus, the deficit cost over a trillion dollar tax cut for the wealthiest
Americans. And now poverty is expanding, 50 million in poverty, 54 million
food insecure, and 40 million on Food Stamps.

We must, in fact, adjust our priorities.

DYSON: Look, we`ve got less than a minute less. Another big concern,
youth getting priced out of college. Explain what the problem is there.

JACKSON: There`s something called the Parent Plus loans, where of the
historically black colleges, 15,000 student cannot go back to school
because they cannot get the funding. But it`s not just them.

Students in Oklahoma rank near the very top in student loan defaults.
So it is affecting poor children everywhere. While the president wants
more kids to graduate, more are being locked out with trillion dollar
student loan debt. Student loan debt is greater than credit card debt.

There must be some plan for student loan debt forgiveness and
prioritize education of our children, making education affordable.

DYSON: All right, Reverend Jesse Jackson, you always say it in a way
that we can get it and understand it very clearly. We thank you so much
for joining us here tonight.

JACKSON: I hope to see you next week.

DYSON: That`s THE ED SHOW. This is Michael Eric Dyson in for Ed
Schultz. "Hubris, Selling the Iraq War," starts now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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