All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, May 8th, 2013
Read the transcript from the Wednesday show
ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
May 8, 2013
Guests: Connie Schultz, Irin Carmon, Eesha Pandit, Rep. Carolyn Maloney, Eric Boehlert
CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.
Thank you for joining us.
Cautionary tales abound tonight. A Republican congressman tries to
manufacture the next Watergate, but instead gets upstaged by the next
lifetime original movie.
And in Michigan, the real price of austerity as a school district runs
out of money, fires all the teachers, and shuts the doors on students. No,
really, that actually happened. You have to hear this story.
All of that, plus, of course, #click3.
But we begin tonight with an onslaught of new details, developments
and the big question of overlooked red flags in the investigation
surrounding the kidnapping and rescue of three young women held captive for
a decade inside a Cleveland home.
Fifty-two-year-old Ariel Castro was charged late this afternoon with
four counts of kidnapping and three counts of rape. No charges were filed
against either of his brothers, who were arrested along with him on Monday
Cleveland police now say there is no evidence that leads them to
believe the brothers were involved or even had any knowledge that Ariel
Castro was holding the women captive in his home.
Police said today that throughout their decade in captivity, the women
are only known to have been allowed outside twice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN FLASK, CLEVELAND PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR: The evidence we`ve
obtained thus far indicates that in the last decade, they`ve only known
themselves to be outside the home on two separate occasions.
ED TOMBA, CLEVELAND DEPUTY POLICE CHIEF: We were told that they left
the house and went into the garage in disguise. So those are the two times
that were mentioned or that they can recall.
REPORTER: So they never left the property?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: As we`re learning more about the horrific conditions these
three women were held under, we`re also learning more about the suspect in
the case, Ariel Castro. Every new detail we learn about his life, given
what we now know he`s suspected of doing is being seen understandably as a
missed warning sign, a red flag that might have alerted authorities that
something was wrong with this man.
Much has been made for instance of news that Castro was fired last
year as a job as a school bus driver after more than 20 years in the job.
This firing came after he was cited for leaving his bus unattended for four
hours last September while he went home to rest, that after a series of
incidents that also included once leaving a kid on the bus for two hours.
And while police insist they never received suspicious activity at
Castro`s house, many of his neighbors are going public with stories of
bizarre behavior and long-held suspicions about Ariel Castro, though it
remains to be seen whether those check out.
But as a picture of red flags and warning signs surrounding Ariel
Castro emerges, the biggest red flag is the least talked about today,
because it seems on the surface almost too routine to be a red flag,
because it is such a fact of American life and that very mundane red flag
which I bet you have not heard about is Ariel Castro`s record of alleged
"The Cleveland Plain Dealer" is out with a disturbing list of charges
against Castro dating back to 2005, reporting based on court documents that
his ex-wife, quote, "suffered two broken noses, broken ribs, a knocked-out
tooth, a blood clot on the brain, and two dislocated shoulders" at Castro`s
hands. Her attorney was at the time requesting that a judge, quote, "keep
Castro from threatening to kill her" and further alleging that the ex-wife,
quote, "has full custody with no visitation for Castro. Nevertheless,
Castro repeatedly abducts their daughter and keeps them from mother."
Those grisly details prompting "Jezebel`s" Katie J.M. Baker to write,
quote, "We care very much about pretty adolescent girls who disappear into
thin air as we should, of course. But we should also care about men who
abuse their wives and children before they go out and find replacements to
hide in the basement."
That is not necessarily hyperbole. We`re talking about a man who had
been accused of assaulting his ex-wife and threatening to kill her and
kidnapping their children. And, ultimately, he`s alleged to have kidnapped
three other young women and children, one of whom was a close friend of his
daughter, Gina DeJesus, who was 14 years old when she disappeared in 2004.
The last person to see her before she disappeared that day on her way home
from school was her friend and Ariel Castro`s daughter.
Castro`s daughter, in fact, appeared on an episode of "America`s Most
Wanted" where she described the moments leading up to her friend`s
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I talked to the last person who is with Gina that
day, her best friend and classmate, Arlene Castro. The two girls were
walking home together, hoping to spend the rest of the afternoon at Gina`s
ARLENE CASTRO: I decided to call my mom and ask her, so she gave me
50 cents to call my mom, and so my mom said, no, that I can`t go over to
her house. And so I told her I couldn`t, and she said, well, OK, I`ll talk
to you later. And she walked.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: A police report released tonight fills in some of the details
around the alleged abduction. Quote, "Georgina DeJesus was in the area of
West 105th Street and Loraine Avenue when Ariel approached Gina with his
daughter, who Gina went to school with. Ariel came back without his
daughter and told Gina he would give her a ride to his house to meet up
with his daughter."
Ariel Castro is alleged to have driven Gina DeJesus to his house
instead where he held her captive for nine years.
And here is the most shocking part of all of this -- according to the
timeline laid out by police, Ariel Castro had already abducted Gina
DeJesus, as well as Michelle Knight, and Amanda Berry by the time his ex-
wife`s allegations of violence and threats of murder and kidnapping of his
own daughters are being aired in court in 2005.
It`s hard not to imagine the past eight years of those three women`s
lives having been played out differently if someone had interviewed more
forcefully or more successfully when Ariel Castro was simply being accused
of dangerous and violent behavior against his own family.
Joining me again tonight from Cleveland, Ohio, Pulitzer Prize-winning
columnist, Connie Schultz. And with me here at the table, Irin Carmon,
staff writer for Salon.com.
Connie, I want to get your reaction to the news about -- and "The
Cleveland Plain Dealer", to its great credit, did reporting of this about
this domestic violence incident. The details of which are brutal,
horrifying, and also shockingly mundane in the context of domestic violence
and reports that I as a reporter have read for the duration of my career
while reporting stories out.
CONNIE SCHULTZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: You know, I had a long
conversation today, Chris, with the CEO of the Rape Crisis Center here,
Megan O`Brien, and we were talking -- this was before the charges were made
public, but we certainly knew about him at that point. And as she said to
me, and it`s so true, we still marginalize this whole issue of domestic
violence involving women and sexual abuse and sexual assault.
And this is really, unfortunately, this story is playing that out in
vivid detail for us tonight.
HAYES: You know, we have a system that literally cannot handle the
sheer number of domestic violence calls there are. I mean, I know in
Chicago when I was a reporter in Chicago, there was a separate court
created for domestic violence to try to process it. You can go through rap
sheets and it`s often the case that misdemeanor after misdemeanor after
misdemeanor, you really have to do something quite extreme to get a felony.
And here`s this item just sitting in the middle of his record and then
everybody moved on about their lives.
IRIN CARMON, SALON.COM: Look, there`s attention -- sorry.
SCHULTZ: Oh, I`m sorry.
HAYES: Go ahead, Irin.
CARMON: I was going to say there`s attention here. I mean, of
course, we don`t want people to be locked up for the rest of their lives
because they commit a misdemeanor crime, but I do think that there`s a
continuum here, there`s a spectrum through which, you know, what Ariel
Castro`s accused of doing to his own family and this kind of extraordinary
violence that`s frankly an extreme version of what is considered ordinary,
what is normalized, what is considered private, which is violence against
HAYES: Connie, what were you going to say?
SCHULTZ: Well, you said something that really struck me, you said we
have system that can`t handle all the domestic violence complaints, and I
guess -- not I guess -- my argument would be if we made women and women`s
safety a priority, we would have a system that could handle all the
domestic violence complaints.
HAYES: What do you mean by that?
SCHULTZ: I mean, if we made it a priority, we would have enough
lawyers who represent women who can represent them for free if they don`t
have the money. We would have police departments around the country who
take seriously allegations of abuse. We would have a network in place for
safe havens for women immediately. We would have the equivalent of the
Cleveland Rape Crisis Center in every city in the country.
I mean, we`ve not made it a priority. We certainly spend money on a
lot of other things when we decide it`s important, and if we put women
first, women and children and their safety, we would be able to handle
these complaints and we do a lot more to prevent domestic violence in the
CARMON: I think it`s important to note while we`re not doing nearly
enough and while it`s a scandal that 1.3 million women are victims of
intimate partner violence every year in the last statistics that I saw,
we`ve actually made a fair amount of progress, which is actually
encouraging for what can happen.
Over the last few decades, as violent crime has gone down generally,
domestic violence has gone down, and you have to think in that same period,
women have become more empowered. Women who were in domestic -- or men, as
well -- who were in domestic partner situations that were violent often
felt like they had no alternative. Some alternatives, if not enough, have
been created and as people have other sources of income, as they can
imagine themselves outside of this harmful couples situation that`s
empowered them to take charge of their own lives.
So again, it`s not enough, but we have made a lot of progress.
HAYES: And part of that has been, Connie, part of it has been the way
in which there has been a revolution in policing, and this gets us to this
kind of red-flag question, which I think looms over the city of Cleveland,
looms over the case right now in terms of the police department`s conduct.
The police department today, since you were talking about yesterday,
"USA Today`s" reports and one of the neighbors talking about phone calls
made by neighbors, three calls between 2011 and 2012, reports of seeing
naked women on leashes in the backyard, you know, we should note police at
the press conference have no record of those calls, that the women
themselves say they were not outside the house.
HAYES: And that, I think, is part of the story that`s important here,
because I think everybody`s looking at whether the police did this right or
wrong or not with respect to these neighbors` calls, and the question I
keep having is, what happened when the cop showed up when the ex-wife had a
blood clot, right? That`s the point at which the intervention to me seems
like there was the best chance of something breaking open there that would
have ended this horror show eight years ago.
SCHULTZ: Well, that`s a very good question, and it`s one that a lot
of us in Cleveland have right now. But I can`t tell how much I appreciate
that you have pointed out that right now, the investigation is still
unfolding and we don`t know what all the police did right and what the
police did wrong.
And in Cleveland in particular, this is very important. I mean, I`ve
been critical of Cleveland police a lot in my career, but the response to
that, their response after the Anthony Sewell murders which we talked about
last night, when 11 women found buried in his house on the east side of
Cleveland in 2009, the commission, it was an independent commission which
included the CEO of the Rape Crisis Center and a boatload of
recommendations for change in policy and practices.
And so I -- while I`m always going to be skeptical when it comes to
the police, I am going to wait and find out what all -- first of all, what
all they report, what other strong reporting reveals about this, and I`m
not willing right now to say it`s simply the Cleveland police dropping the
ball in every direction. We don`t know that yet.
And I`m really getting weary of the speculation of news shows and
online stories. They are drawing a lot of conclusions about my city and my
town and I don`t feel proprietary protecting the police, but I do want the
reporting to be accurate. There`s a lot at stake here right now, it`s
including the safety of the women who are found, all the survivors reliving
their traumas by the unfolding of this news. There`s so much to take into
consideration right now.
And I want us, as I wrote for my syndicated column today, the first
rule for us journalists should be: do no further harm to these women.
I -- you know, I have to say you bring that up and we were watching
the scene unfold today when one of the women returned home. And there was
a huge stake out there, we`re now showing the footage, which I`m about to
criticize, which is the fact -- you know, how long are those cameras going
to be there, this is someone whose gone from being locked inside a house
for 10 years, and I would love for us to give them the space and privacy to
be able to cope and heal and move on in the way they need to and not be
locked inside their house because there`s press waiting on their doorstep
every fricking second. So, that`s my own personal plea --
HAYES: Trying not to be part of the problem.
SCHULTZ: I would like to clone you. That`s what I would like to do
in our industry right now. I made a direct plea to journalists today.
SCHULTZ: That we have got to dial this back.
I want to talk about the most incredible moment of Charles Ramsey`s
interview to me and the story of Charles Ramsey as a kind of folk hero on
this. And I want to bring in one more guest to talk about the context of
domestic violence and the remarkable revelation today based on some very
good reporting by "The Cleveland Plain Dealer" that the suspect in this
case had a record of domestic violence.
All that when we come back.
HAYES: Still to come, the only thing that can kill a story
manufactured for cable news is a more lurid and even more shameful story
manufactured for cable news. I`ll explain why Darrell Issa and Roger Ailes
are having sad tonight.
Plus, a story that should make even proponents of austerity measures
smack their forwards when deficit reduction goes berserk, coming up.
And more with our panel, coming up.
HAYES: Talking about red flags and domestic violence, domestic abuse
in the wake of the shocking revelations out of the kidnapping story in
And I want to bring into the conversation Eesha Pandit. She is a
columnist at "Feministing", and recently worked with the group, executive
director for the advocacy group, Men Stopping Violence.
And, Eesha, here`s -- I want to play for you this bit from the
infamous -- now infamous Charles Ramsey interview, or numerous interviews.
He, of course, the neighbor who was the one when heard screams, cracked the
door open, made the 911 call, is being rightly lauded for a tremendous
courage and right thinking and intervention in a moment that has led to the
release of these women.
And he talks about thinking it was a domestic incident when he`s
discussing it, and in doing something, you think he`s going to say I
thought it was a domestic incident as in leave it in the domicile, leave it
in the place where the incidents happened, but he acts anyways.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES RAMSEY, NEIGHBOR: Heard screaming, I`m eating my McDonald`s,
I come outside and see this girl going nuts trying to get out of her house.
She says, "Help me get out. I`ve been in here a long time." So, you
know, I figured it`s a domestic violence dispute, so I open the door. We
can`t get in that way, because how the door is, it`s so much that a body
can`t fit through, only your hand.
So, we kick the bottom and she comes out with a little girl and she
says, "Call 911, my name is Amanda Berry."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That moment of intervention I thought it was a domestic
dispute and I saw someone on Twitter that night tweet, you know, this is
like a victory of feminism, that it`s taken a generation of struggle to get
people to recognize domestic violence not as something to just simply walk
And that is the difference, that moment is the difference between Lord
knows how many years of captivity of these women and the freedom that we`re
EESHA PANDIT, FEMINISTING: Yes. So, I think two really important
things about bystander intervention as a strategy for ending violence or as
a strategy for countering violence against women. One really important
thing is that it can and does work. When people feel as though they are
empowered to act, that things actually do change and women are able to rely
on their community in a particular kind of way.
But we also have to talk about the limits of bystander intervention,
why it is -- why there are communities where people, despite recognizing
and acknowledging domestic violence as a problem, as something that should
be ended and their communities don`t feel safe relying on the criminal
justice system. I mean, I heard a lot in his voice, and part of the
trajectory of asking people if we`re going to ask for a community, a
culture of ending violence in which we ask people to intervene, we have to
have social undergirding to that.
PANDIT: There need to be solutions people trust, there need to be
solutions that work for multiple communities, marginalized communities in
particular, and we also need to have a cultural understanding of violence -
- of domestic violence, the definition of that has to be culturally broad,
and something that people understand.
So, bystander intervention is a great strategy, but it needs a lot of
undergirding, social undergirding and structural like we were talking about
earlier, the various structures that need to be in place to prevent and
protect women from violence.
HAYES: And that`s I think the thing that we`re all -- everyone`s
looking at this story in the context of like how did this happen, how did
this go on right under people`s noses, shut away. And the fact of the
matter is, I guarantee you, every person who`s watching us right now has
had a moment where they have watched a moment of violence between a man and
a woman in a public space and not acted on it.
I guarantee every single person who is watching this program right now
can conjure in their mind. I know myself I can, can conjure in their mind
a moment where they did -- Connie, you`re nodding your head.
SCHULTZ: Well, I am. I haven`t thought about something I wrote about
years ago until just now as we`re talking about this. A number of years
ago I was on a softball team. I was a single mom on a softball team and I
got hit in the eye and had this giant black eye.
And I wrote about this happening. And I went to the local grocery
store where I always went (INAUDIBLE), and a number of people looked at me
with concern, never said a word except for two women who came up and told
me how to hide the bruise with makeup. No one ever asked me if I was OK.
SCHULTZ: I hadn`t thought about that for years until right now -- and
I had written about it because I was struck by that.
So, I love what you just said about the undergirding. I`m wondering
if you could expand -- sorry, this is your show, Chris.
HAYES: You`re a great journalist.
SCHULTZ: I would just love some more suggestions for the audience on
how to do that if she has some. I would love to hear that.
HAYES: And before you do that -- I just want to get this in, because
I want to fully sort of tell the story. The kind of huge bummer at the
core of all this, turns out today Charles Ramsey himself has a domestic
violence arrest record, in fact, served months for domestic violence which
I don`t --
CARMON: Felony domestic violence.
HAYES: Felony domestic violence, which is serious business, and in
some ways is just like confounds and weirdly complicates the entire story
we`re telling, but also speaks to the prevalence and ubiquity.
PANDIT: Yes. So, I mean, the first thing to note here is that the
kidnapping, abduction and violence against women and girls is endemic and a
global phenomenon. So, noticing that as a problem, acknowledging it as a
problem is the first step.
The next step is to look at the communities where violence is
happening and then look at the solutions that we`re offering those
So, take, for example, communities that are under heavy surveillance
and that are -- think about undocumented folks, what solutions are we
offering those communities? And that`s the kind of social undergirding
that I`m talking about. If people don`t feel safe --
HAYES: Calling the police, for instance.
PANDIT: Calling the police, for instance. So, bystander intervention
will take us so far, unless we have solutions that people can rely on and
that they trust will make them safe.
Oftentimes we hear women say, I don`t want the police here. Why would
that be? That`s not because violence isn`t happening, that`s because they
don`t trust those solutions and they don`t feel safe in those spaces
So, if we`re talking about structures that promote violence, we talk
about this all the time, the legacies of the state being a perpetrator of
violence. That is not -- that is not false and that is where these deep-
seeded distrust of those solutions come in place.
So, community-based solutions where people feel there are people in
their community they can call on to trust. And the first step of that, is,
of course, acknowledging that this violence is happening. I do want to
make a point about all of the talk about the Ariel Castro as just sort of a
PANDIT: I don`t think that that is a mistake. I think one of the
things that we always do when stories like this happen is we sort of say,
oh, this person is pathological.
PANDIT: And this is an individual problem. This is not an individual
problem. Every story has the same set of structures, the same set of
scenarios that enable us to look away in particular kinds of ways.
PANDIT: So that then is cultural and endemic and not just a form of
individual pathology. And if we don`t start there, we`re never going to
get to the social undergirded solutions that we`re looking for.
CARMON: I think you made some fantastic points, Eesha, and I would
also add that, in fact, this kind of violence occurs even in very
privileged context and the way it happens, the way it gets enabled, what
did we have before we had bystander intervention, or before we had domestic
violence as a concept, of people -- if you need to say -- if you see
something, say something?
CARMON: What we had was the idea of privacy which basically enabled
women and other vulnerable people to be abused inside the home. So,
attention between the violence they have inside the home, the historical
reason why violence against women was allowed was because women were
property. That have all been --
HAYES: It was private.
CARMON: Yes. And then it evolved into, OK, you can beat your wife.
However, the state should not be involved in private family matters.
So, we have evolving into a situation where women or people in violent
situations are subjects that can take charge of their own destiny, who have
a right to bodily autonomy. It`s part of a larger idea of seeing them as
human beings who have choices over their lives.
HAYES: And this, and this -- I mean, the horrifying details of what
we`re learning here are the kind of most monstrous embodiment of this idea,
right, of like dehumanization, of privacy, of it being locked away, of no
one knowing, of it being sealed.
CARMON: Privacy of respecting their space right now because they`ve
been locked up, but there`s also the fact another way in which privacy has
been used to kind of enforce the oppression of people that happens very
hidden inside doors.
HAYES: Irin Carmon of Salon.com, Eesha Pandit of "Feministing",
syndicated columnist Connie Schultz -- thank you all tonight. I really,
really appreciate it.
SCHULTZ: Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: It`s already summer recess for students in Buena Vista School
District in Saginaw, Michigan. That`s because the school district shut
down its schools and fired every single teacher. I`ll explain why next.
HAYES: Today marked the second day that kids in Buena Vista Township,
Michigan, and I am pronouncing that correctly, were not in school. Not
because of inclement weather, not because of a holiday, but because the
state has cut off their funds and the Buena Vista School District is out of
money. That means some 400-plus kids are not going to school for the
foreseeable future and the district can`t pay employees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was a move that shocked everyone; the school
board voted to layoff the entire staff last night, except the
superintendent and two other administrators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was no school for students today and there`s
no telling when they`ll be allowed in the classroom again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: So not only have the school`s doors been shut on the students,
but all the school`s 27 teachers have been let go. Although the teachers
have offered to work for free for at least the rest of the week. The
district board of education president, a man by the name of Randy Jackson,
said there would have been problems with labor contracts with having the
staff work without pay. So instead, they are all laid off.
This, mind you, all happening during National Teacher Appreciation
Week. State officials claim the district has mismanaged funds. And the
government of Republican Rick Snyder has refused to give the township more
loans. Jackson, the district board president, said the board plans to
declare a financial emergency, and he`s hopeful the district can receive
emergency funding from the Michigan Department of Education after
submitting a deficit reduction plan.
That`s because a state mandated deficit reduction plan is required by
all the localities that want to get money from the state. According to the
"Huffington Post," the district has already submitted a deficit elimination
plan to the state, but the state didn`t approve it, which is why they`ve
now cut off Buena Vista and forced the district to close its school.
As of now, there`s been no allowances made to extend them a line of
credit until June 13th, which is the last day of school, so the students
can finish their coursework. Congressman Dan Kildee is asking Governor
Rick Snyder to get involved, saying, quote, "if the local school district
is unable to reopen its schools on its own, the state of Michigan must act
to ensure that students in Buena Vista can finish out the remaining days of
the school year."
Our reporter, Ned Reznikof, spoke to the school`s superintendent, Dr.
Deborah Harvil, this afternoon, who said "we`ve been very transparent about
the fact we will request an emergency manager or a financial review."
OK, so if emergency manager rings a bell, it should. My colleague
Rachel Maddow has covered the heck out of Michigan`s emergency manager law,
which allows the state to appoint an emergency manager to run cash strapped
localities. In other words, austerity wins out over local democracy.
The state throws out the decisions of your elected officials and the
tiny and mostly black township of Buena Vista gets put under the control of
Republican Governor Rick Snyder. Buena Vista is what the most extreme
example of austerity looks like in the crisis area, on the ground. The
shutting off of the most basic service we can provide, giving kids an
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They just said we might not have school this week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: When we talk about the Budget Control Act and the sequester,
it`s easy to lose sight of the fact that the place where austerity is
hitting hardest is on states and local municipalities that don`t have the
federal government`s borrowing capacity. The places that are getting
squeezed the hardest are the places that don`t have a lot of money to begin
The medium household income in Buena Vista Township, Michigan, between
2007 and 2011 was just over 26,000 dollars. State and local government
revenues were absolutely gutted when Wall Street imploded. But many were
spared the most dire consequences because the Recovery Act provided much-
needed revenue sharing. Now that`s run out and Republicans refuse to give
out any more. They call it a bailout.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: Should taxpayers in frugal states be
bailing out taxpayers in profligate states? No, that`s a moral hazard that
we are not interested in creating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: When you hear politicians talk about belt tightening, about
the need for cuts, kids not going to school is part of what that looks
like. And I dare you to find an economist who says it`s going to be good
for the future economic growth of this country to keep kids home. We`ll be
right back with Click Three.
HAYES: Republican officials and conservative pundits were sure
today`s Benghazi hearings would be bigger than Watergate, bigger than Iran
Contra. But a funny thing happened on the way to the witch hunt, the
chickens of cable news came home to roost. That`s next.
But first, I want to share the three awesomest things on the Internet
today, beginning with goats at an airport. From viewer Laura Davis, goats
hired to graze at O`Hare cut down on landscaping costs. Links to a gem of
a Chicago local news piece.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keep your eyes open for the city`s newest lawn
crew, a herd of goats. Are we going to see the goats here? Not out there
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Not out there yet. So, we can offer some gratuitous goat
video as we tell you that O`Hare goat story is evidently legit. Here`s
more from Chicago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty five goats and a shepherd will start at
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shepherd?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: I am not sure the goats always respond well to shepherds, but
OK. The O`Hare goats will be fenced in, so as not to collide with planes.
Now back to Chicago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: City says this pilot program is a more
sustainable and natural way of control the vegetation at O`Hare.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The second awesomest thing on the Internet today, a pretty
cool tribute right there on Google`s home page, a taste of animation and an
81-second video honoring the title Sal Baas, title sequence genius who
would have been 93 today. The Google tribute hits on many eras. Here`s
Vertigo -- here`s "Vertigo," the Alfred Hitchcock classic starring Jimmy
Stewart. Here`s Google`s reference to "Anatomy of a Murder." And here`s
the 1959 Otto Preminger. You get the picture.
Sal Baas certainly did, in Martin Scorsese`s "Cape Fear," a revival
for Bass, and dozens of other films. As the "Washington Post" said today,
Bass basically invented this graphic art form. Bass himself said, "I felt
for some time the audience involvement with the film should really begin
with the very first frame."
And the third awesomest thing on the Internet today, the 10-year-old
inventor, as detailed by "Wired`s" Keith Berry, Owen Natarone (ph) of
Situate (ph), Massachusetts. Owen has devised this, an interactive golf
tee to analyze your swing in real time. As every bad golfer knows,
anything might help. Owen takes golf lessons and he was inspired. So he
and his dad, Len, are working on patenting the idea to put a micro-camera
into the tee with a GPS sensor in the ball. Data is then sent to your
smartphone, data that will make bad golfers even more crazy.
You can find all the links for tonight`s Click Three on our website,
AllInWithChris.com. We`ll be right back.
HAYES: Today was set up to be a big day, a very big day for Roger
Ailes, the Fox Network, Drudge Report readers, the denizens of Michelle
Malkin`s website Twitchy, Sean Hannity`s radio audience, and Congressman
Darryl Issa. Why? Because today was Benghazi day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Benghazi bomb shell. As accusations heat up, what
will the whistle-blowers reveal and how truthful has the government been
about the attack?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Oh, Hillary Clinton, how`d she get in there? If you have not
been watching Fox News nonstop like we have here in the office, then you
are likely unaware that the biggest story in America right now is, of
course, the fallout, cover up and nefarious doings behind the horrible
death of four Americans in the attack on Benghazi on September 11th, 2012.
According to Fox News, this cover up is, literally, the biggest
scandal since Watergate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Watergate, Nixon lied, but nobody died. In
Benghazi, four dead, White House went to bed.
BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Will it become like the Watergate
thing, a huge story?
It`s the same thing that happened with Watergate.
MIKE HUCKABEE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I still believe that if this is just
about a little old video, then Watergate was just about a little old
flashlight and some duct tape and a bungled burglary of the democratic
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: By the way, in that case, nobody died
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Nobody died in Watergate. So Fox News was all geared up today
to really capture the outrage, to embrace the much-hyped whistle-blower who
has second guessed a decision allegedly made by Special Operations Command
Africa not to send special forces from Tripoli, the capital, to Benghazi,
the site of the consulate, after insurgents attacked the mission there.
A Pentagon spokesman reiterated today that special forces could not
have made it to Benghazi in time to save lives, and were needed in Tripoli
to help secure the embassy there. That`s not important, because Fox was
all teed up. Promos had been made, hosts were properly outraged, the
coverage plan was in motion. And then the cable news-pocalypse happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Lots of breaking news this hour,
including, look at this, live in Cleveland as Gina DeJesus arrives home.
Wow, do we have some news for you now in Arizona where the jury has
reached a verdict in the Jodi Arias murder trial.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Top of the professional cap to Megyn Kelly, who rolled very
smoothly with that. Now even though Fox was sort of amusingly knocked off
their game today by forces of derp (ph) greater than themselves, they have
done something truly remarkable here. Through shear monomaniacal
persistence, they have managed, almost single handedly, to make this
something that elected representatives are devoting themselves to. They`ve
created an entire alternate universe in which Benghazi is the most pressing
issue facing the country right now.
And in Congress, your representatives are listening. Joining me
tonight, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, Democrat from New York, who is on
the House Oversight Committee and was at the today`s hearing, and Eric
Boehlert, senior fellow at Media Matters, who has been tracking,
painstakingly, the increasingly Byzantine manufactured Benghazi scandal on
Congresswoman, I guess I`ll begin with you. Did you learn anything
today at the hearing? There was some very compelling emotional testimony
from the deputy chief of mission about what happened that night. The story
of what happened that night is harrowing and dramatic and upsetting for a
variety of reasons, not the least of which four Americans ending up dead,
the notion of people being trapped in a safe building that`s burned to the
Did you learn something new today?
REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D), NEW YORK: Well, I learned that a terrible
terrorist attack was turned into a political attack. And what I find so
distressing, Chris, is that when Americans are attacked, some turn around
and attack more Americans instead of going after the terrorists. And I
find it very unfortunate that they spent their time criticizing the
military, the State Department, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton,
and Americans, instead of focusing on the 29 recommendations that the
Accountability Review Board came out with to correct it to protect lives.
I learned a lot, too. And what was interesting to me is these false
lies that Issa has been saying on national television, claiming that the
former secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, had personally signed cables
denying increased security, were absolutely false. All three witnesses
testified that the department`s procedure of the State Department is that
the secretary, whoever the secretary is, that their name is on every cable.
And the Accountability Review Board said that that was true and that she
was not involved. It stopped at the deputy secretary level.
HAYES: If you`re joining the Benghazi story midstream, as I suspect
some viewers are, the Accountability Review Board was the body that was
appointed in the aftermath of the brouhaha that was originally raised back
in 2012, in the waning days of the election, that came out with
recommendations, right, that looked into it. I want to be clear here, I
don`t think, from where I stand -- it doesn`t seem to me at all wrong to
second guess the State Department or decisions that were made by Department
of Defense or anyone in government if there are things to be gleaned about
The question is, there`s a difference, right, Eric, it strikes me,
between things that went badly and should have gone better and a scandal.
I mean that. Sometimes people make bad decisions.
ERIC BOEHLERT, MEDIA MATTERS: Absolutely.
HAYES: And then there`s scandal. I don`t see how we get from the
former to the latter.
BOEHLERT: Neither does anyone else. You know, the congresswoman
talked about the Issa allegation, which is now in the dust bin. You know,
go back to 2012, Obama never called this terror, that`s false.
HAYES: Mitt Romney`s worse campaign moment, which Sean Hannity
recently revealed he cursed Mitt Romney out for not doubling down on what
was his worst campaign moment.
BOEHLERT: Yes. General Petraeus had to resign because of Benghazi.
Hillary faked her concussion because she didn`t want to testify. You know,
the lies and misinformation Fox News has been pedaling since September --
we`re almost in eight months of this. You lose track. You lose count.
They just pile up and they pile up. The silenced whistle-blowers --
silenced? They spoke with the independent review board. One guy wanted to
go back twice and talk to them again.
HAYES: And he did.
BOEHLERT: And he did. And they said, of course, come back. Tell us
whatever you want. Because, as you said, the review board was interested
in finding out what went wrong, how can we prevent this from happening.
Fox News has showed no interest in finding out how can we prevent this from
happening. It`s been an endless politicization. Today, this was their
blockbuster. This was their Watergate. And by 2:00, people were like
changing the channel.
HAYES: They cut away from their own coverage. Congresswoman, I don`t
know if you saw how your remarks today at the hearing were covered. But I
want to show you a split screen. There right now -- there`s you live
speaking. And Fox at that moment, I think coincidentally, I`d say, decided
to go to highlights of previous statements that had been given by
Republicans in that very same hearing. Although there you are actually
So, my question to you is, is there a place where they can get off the
train here? Is this going to keep going? Or are things being settled?
I`d like you to answer that question right after we take this quick break.
HAYES: We`re talking about the right wing Benghazi hearing bust with
Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney and Eric Boehlert of Media Matters.
Congresswoman, before we went to break, the question to you is, is there
some point at which they talk themselves out on this topic, in which
there`s some -- the Accountability Review Board or the -- some -- there`s
something that will make them stop? Or do you get the sense that there is
nothing that will make them stop?
MALONEY: I think they are going to keep going with their partisan
attacks. And I would say, Chris, that they are entitled to have their own
political point of view, but they can`t make up their own facts. And it`s
very clear that the secretary of state did not sign those cables. And I
would say to the Chairman Issa that he should take down from the Republican
website the statement that she did. It`s completely false.
And "the Washington Post," in their fact finder column, called this a
completely false statement. They called it a whopper, and gave Chairman
Issa four Pinnochios. But no one substantiates these claims. And they
should give the secretary of state an apology, and at the very least take
this false information off of a government website.
HAYES: Eric, I cannot help but notice that Hillary Clinton features
quite prominently in the questioning today, as I watched part of the
hearing, in the graphic we showed. If I were disposed to have an
uncharitable view of this enterprise, I might be led to believe that this
was politically motivated to try to sully her in advance of what is
perceived to be an inevitable White House run.
BOEHLERT: This was going to be the dream bank shot. It was going to
lead to impeachment for Obama and then it was going to derail Hillary`s
2016 campaign. It didn`t do either. And what the congresswoman talked
about, they can`t get off this train. The obvious place would have been at
the end of the election. The obvious place would have been the State
Department report. But Fox needs this content. They need this phony
HAYES: I literally don`t understand why now.
BOEHLERT: I`ll tell you why.
HAYES: OK, because if I was tracking it, it was like, OK, the right
wingers on my feed are Tweeting me about Benghazi. Then it`s like there`s
a lull. Then, all of a sudden, maybe two or three weeks ago, everything I
Tweeted, Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi.
BOEHLERT: This was really a hearing about a report. So they didn`t
really get anywhere with the actual attack, any wrong doing cover up. So
then the independent report came out, and they decided, well, we`ll have a
hearing about the reporter because they didn`t talk to the right people or
they, quote, silenced people, or the report is part of the cover up. These
generals with sterling reputations were in on this with the White House,
according to Fox News.
So that was sort of act three, act five, act 10, take your pick. But,
again, Fox is committed to this story line. If you watch tonight, the
hearings were a blockbuster. It`s a unraveling because this is the phony
story they tell their viewers, just like they told them Romney was going to
win in a landslide. It`s the same thing.
HAYES: I can`t help but notice that at this point -- just to track
through -- and I don`t want to drain you, dear viewers, emotional and
cognitive energy on getting into the weeds of Benghazi, because, for the
most part, the weeds are unedifying. But, you know, what I can`t help but
notice even today at the hearing, going back to these attacks that we saw
back in September -- I mean, Susan Rice shouldn`t have said the things she
said on the Sunday morning talk shows, which maybe what she said wasn`t the
full picture. Although, again, it was a pretty chaotic situation.
But that was, you know, six, seven months ago. I thought we`d been
through that. And yet congresswoman, those same things that we were
hearing back in, you know, October, were being trotted out again today.
MALONEY: You`re right. They just kept bringing up all these attacks,
these partisan attacks. What I don`t understand is after 9/11, Republicans
and Democrats came together and we were united and determined to protect
our homeland security, to change our intelligence system. And we worked
together to implement many, many reforms to make our country stronger, our
intelligence stronger, and to protect our citizens.
That effort isn`t there now. It just seems to be a partisan attack.
And Americans were killed. Americans were attacked. And yet their
response is to attack Americans, attack the State Department, attack the
military. We should be united in implementing the 29 recommendations and
upping the funding to protect our personnel and embassies around the world.
HAYES: That did seem to me that -- to the extent there was a
salvageable policy take away, was that the consulate was probably under
secured, that it was -- that we did not have our own staff in diplomatic
security, which was an enterprise that had been gutted by outsourcing for
years, largely turned over to Blackwater, let`s all recall.
HAYES: And Blackwater became so politically toxic in a place like
Libya, in which you`re dealing with a very vulnerable nascent government,
that you could not bring in Blackwater. So the answer was local militias,
who were the ones that we outsourced it to, as opposed to actually keeping
diplomatic security in house, with a professional core that was funded,
right? I want to get --
MALONEY: That`s what we need to do.
HAYES: Right. And I want to give people just a sense also, this is
attacks on U.S. diplomatic targets by administration from 1970, 2010. Put
this just in a little bit of context, OK. We are seeing, in the broad
scheme of things, right, very low historic level of attacks at targets.
It`s unclear that embassy security, on the whole, in a macro sense, is
And the thing, Eric, I couldn`t help but notice today, is that what --
the latest -- to the extent that there`s a latest plot point in the
scandal, it comes down to second guessing a call presumably made by the
AfriCOM commander about whether to send a special ops team helicopter at
the moment when he made the call not to send it.
Again, I don`t think a general is above second guessing. But I do
have a little bit of humility myself about whether I`m the right person to
make that call nine months later, in the midst of what is a chaotic battle
scene, about whether to send a helicopter or not.
BOEHLERT: That`s what Leon Panetta talked about a couple months ago.
He called Monday morning quarterbacking, which it is. Look, it`s fine to
have differing opinion. It`s fine to say we disagree with what the
administration did. That`s sort of what op-eds are for, not Congressional
hearings. The premise that you`re going to have people come in because we
disagree with what the administration did, that`s not a blockbuster.
HAYES: Or what a commander did. I mean, you can imagine Democrats
raising a hackle about a command decision made during the battle of
Fallujah, where to send a battalion of Marines.
Eric Boehlert of Media Matters and Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney,
thank you both.
MALONEY: Thanks, Chris.
HAYES: On the cable news apocalypse day. That is all for this
evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW," a breath of fresh air on cable news
apocalypse day. Good evening, Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC ANCHOR: I`m supposed to be the breath of fresh
HAYES: You are. You`re going to do it.
MADDOW: I did not prep.
HAYES: -- computer and it`s going to be awesome.
MADDOW: I`ll be back in an hour. I got to go prep that. Thank you,
Chris. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. We will try to be
breath of fresh air.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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