updated 6/14/2004 10:18:55 AM ET 2004-06-14T14:18:55

Guests: Jack Kemp, Ann McLaughlin Korologos

(MUSIC)

CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC ANCHOR:  We‘re here on the East Coast, covering the West Cast interment service for Ronald Reagan, the 40th president of the United States.  We just saw Nancy Reagan get in the car.  The motorcade is not headed to where it‘s going to finish up tonight, that‘s at the Reagan Library in Simi Valley.  Everything‘s going according to plan and roughly on schedule, if not a bit ahead of schedule.  This—these three days have been immaculately planned and designed, they‘re beautiful, and everyone‘s done what they were supposed to do, but somehow, some magic has come out of these days that was not prepared for, but it‘s merely happening.  Let‘s go to Mark Mullen, right now, he‘s at Point Mugu Air Base, right now. 

MARK MULLEN, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Watching what will be Ronald Reagan‘s last motorcade, on an absolutely beautiful day.  Chris, you know, they call this time of year, in Southern California, for all of its reputation of having beautiful weather, June gloom, because on many days, it‘s cold, there‘s a marine layer, and it is not particularly pleasant.  Not today.  It‘s beautiful.  Sunshine, about 69 to 70 degrees, no clouds in the sky, it‘s been that way for virtually all day.  Also, much different from the climate in Washington earlier and it will be much the same for this interment ceremony at the Reagan National Library in just a little while or so. 

We‘ve become so familiar with the library over this past week and it seems such a perfect and fitting place for this, that it‘s hard to believe that it wasn‘t the first choice of the Reagans for the Presidential Library.  Their first choice, believe it or not, happened to be about six hours‘ drive north in the San Francisco Bay area on the campus of Stanford University where Stanford‘s Hoover Institution already houses the papers of Ronald Reagan from his Sacramento years. 

They started exploring that possibility.  They ran into a bit of concern from some students and some neighbors over the possibility of traffic once the library was built, some political considerations as well.  Ronald Reagan in the way that he always was, said let‘s not worry about it, let‘s just look for a couple of other places, not overthink it, and then they came across a place which is the current venue for the presidential site now, and according to aides, they said for both Ronald and Nancy, it was love at first site when they saw it.  The Reagans, always spiritual people, knew that it happened to be located physically between their house in Los Angeles and their beloved ranch in Santa Barbara, halfway between.  As well, it‘s a lovely area on a hill top, you can oversee the valley, the ocean is not far from that.  And Ronald Reagan decided right then and there to choose it.  Back then, as much for a burial place as for the library, the place where he is about to drive right now. 

MATTHEWS:  As we can see, the motorcade is moving.  It‘s going to arrive up in Simi Valley at the beautiful library setting we just saw.  It is still daylight out there, it‘s dark back here now in Washington.  We‘ve got Jack Kemp joining us right now, a cabinet member of the Reagan era. 

Sir, pal.

JACK KEMP, FMR. BUSH CABINET MEMBER:  Actually, I was in Bush I, not Reagan. 

MATTHEWS:  Why do I associate you...

KEMP:  I was in the Congress.

MATTHEWS:  Because you were the one who, in a spiritual way, developed the Reagan economic program.

KEMP:  In part.  A lot of help from Marty Anderson and George Shultz and Art Laffer and some of your friends. 

MATTHEWS:  Let me ask you about the service today.  You were inside, what was it like to be a Reaganite and to be in that room?

KEMP:  It was wonderful.  Margaret Thatcher was unbelievable, the president, both presidents—Bushes, and I thought Brian Mulroney—you know, I thought as they talked about the liberation of Eastern Europe from the slavery of communism, and they started playing the “Battle Hymn of the Republic,” it swept over me that Lincoln was known as the great emancipator, Reagan should be known as the great liberator. 

MATTHEWS:  Isn‘t that interesting that Margaret Thatcher, who‘s a Briton—a Brit, was able to find a way to make Reagan Lincolnesque, to say he freed slaves of the Soviet empire? 

(CROSSTALK)

KEMP:  He used the word beautiful homily, during the service.  There was a wonderful—I sat right behind Lech Walesa, and I was thinking, imagine sitting behind Lech Walesa, Margaret Thatcher and Mikhail Gorbachev. 

MATTHEWS:  There‘s Gorbachev there and there‘s Karzai there, the new head of Afghanistan.  I think they had the President Ghazi of the interim government of Iraq, everyone in the world seem to be there. 

Let me ask you about your old boss, President Bush, Sr.  I thought that was a moment today, what did you think?

KEMP:  His speech.

MATTHEWS:  His speech.

KEMP:  It was wonderful.  It was very personal.  It was very moving.  He choked up when he talked about what he had learned from President Reagan.  I thought it was one of the greatest tributes I‘ve ever heard him pay anybody and I was very moved by what President Bush did. 

MATTHEWS:  We‘re not used to that humility in Washington, are we?  I mean real deep humility. 

KEMP:  There was a lot of humility.

MATTHEWS:  He was saying, this is a great man of tremendous charisma and magic, and I‘m a regular guy who tried to make it, but I‘m not one of these kind of guys.  This guy was something. 

KEMP:  Absolutely, and I think that came across in that ceremony from every single speaker, starting with Dick Cheney the night before.  Cheney gave one of the great speeches of, I think, his life. 

MATTHEWS:  I thought so.  And I thought when he said “this man is receiving the highest honors of the United States,” I never heard it put so well. 

Let me ask you about this library, because you‘re an intellectual Reaganite, you‘re not a bobby sockser, you believed in Reagan and what he believed in and you shared those beliefs.  This library, I think one of the testaments to the well-planned rituals this week, is to let everybody in the country know where the Ronald Reagan Library is. 

KEMP:  Simi Valley. 

MATTHEWS:  Yeah, we all know that now, we watched the services emanate from there and now return to there, in Washington—I think in advertising they call that imprints or how many times do you get a message across. 

KEMP:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MATTHEWS:  Well, everyone now knows where the library is.  What‘s going to be the purpose of the library as you understand it?

KEMP:  Well, for research, for study, for contemplation.  I thought this week was a great week of a history lesson.  Because you could not, whether you‘re young or old, whether you‘re a child of the current generation or a grandchild, as I have, you had to be aware of the fact, what it was like in the ‘70s with the Soviet Union deploying missiles against which we had no answer until Ronald Reagan, that the Soviet Union was on the march and the third world, using surrogates from Cuba and Vietnam.  I mean, the world was a lot different—inflation, unemployment, people had given up, there was malaise, or at least we were told there was malaise, there was a dispiritment (ph) and Reagan revived the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the United States of America and the western will.  He was Churchillian, in my opinion, in that he played the role of Churchill in the ‘30s, only it was Reagan in the ‘80s. 

MATTHEWS:  Are you confident with the discussions by Grover Norquist and others, the conservatives, to try to have the president, basically, appear on the $10 bill or is that too far too advanced or not really appropriate?

KEMP:  You know, there‘s a wonderful building over there named after Ronald Reagan, the biggest building in Washington, D.C., the airport‘s named after him, there‘ll be streets named after him and deservedly so.  The $10 bill is dedicated to the portrait of Alexander Hamilton, the greatest secretary of the treasury this nation has ever had.  I think we demean Ronald Reagan if we overdo it right now.  I think calmer voices, and Grover‘s a friend of mine, but I think we should be very careful before we start talking about Mount Rushmore and $10 bills and nickels and quarters and dimes.  I don‘t mean to be light, but I think it‘s a mistake to rush into this type of veneration.  Reagan gets his due in the history books and this week, as I said, has been a history lesson about what Ronald Reagan did for the West. 

MATTHEWS:  Do you believe as a political student, as well as a political student, as well as practitioner, watching this ceremony this week, which is coming very quickly to an end with the interment service at the library when Reagan will—President Reagan will be buried.  Do you believe that he, in the ways that some people like, I don‘t mean to demean either of the men, but Elvis Presley for example, at the very end when he died, you thought his career was sort of going downhill, to the Las Vegas and that sort of thing, then all of a sudden, the people in the country, country people particularly, rose him up as an almost mythic figure.  This is a political, more serious question, obviously, it has to do with state craft and what the country stands for.  Reagan seems to be higher now than he was in 1988.  And I wonder...

KEMP:  I‘m not sure.  I‘m going to think about that.  I think what we have seen this week, with all the world leaders and all the people you alluded to, going to pay their respects.  This was Reagan‘s—you know, ride into the sunset.  I‘m not sure I would parallel it with Elvis Presley. 

MATTHEWS:  I mean to say, in example, the person who looms larger after death. 

KEMP:  OK.  That‘s true.  Certainly John F. Kennedy being shot in Dallas—you know what really saddened me this week, and not to change the subject, but it saddened me that Ray Charles, my all-time favorite singer, died Thursday night and there‘s just a wee bit of news about Ray Charles, I wish it had not been overshadowed by the Reagan funeral. 

MATTHEWS:  Well, different fields. 

KEMP:  Yes.

MATTHEWS:  Different fields, but what a great man Ray Charles was.  I do not take anything away from him, but to say we‘re here looking at this slow moving motorcade, right now.  It seems to be at a really funereal pace, right now.  It‘s going up this mountain side.  What do you make of that library, visually?

KEMP:  I‘ve spoken there several times and there have been a lot of conferences on economics and the meaning of Reaganomics and world foreign policy...

MATTHEWS:  Look, there it is.

KEMP:  It‘s a fabulous venue.  It‘s a gorgeous view.  It‘s just north of where my wife was born in Fillmore, California and I was born in L.A., so to the Kemps, it really has a great deal of meaning and it‘s between his home in Bel Air and his other ranch just north of there in the Santa Ynez Valley, so I‘m moved when I go there, to see Air Force One, to see the Berlin wall right after it came down, replaced out there.  And there‘s some tremendous research going on at the Reagan library, a lot of speeches.  I think it is a marvelous testimony to Ronald Wilson Reagan. 

MATTHEWS:  Let me have, again from you, a rendition of what would you say to one of your many grandchildren.  I think you have 11?

KEMP:  Fifteen. 

MATTHEWS:  Going to have to keep up. 

KEMP:  At the rate I‘m having them, I‘ll have 1,000...

MATTHEWS:  Let me tell you, as they reach the years of reason, as they become aware of such things as presidents, give me what would you call your shortest rendition to a grandchild of the legacy of Ronald Reagan. 

KEMP:  Freedom.  He loved freedom so much.  He wanted it, not only for his own country, but for the whole world and he was indefatigable in the pursuit of freedom, free enterprise, free trade, tell Pat Buchanan, free trade—that was a joke.

MATTHEWS:  That was pretty well done, though. I was just focusing on the next guest.  We‘re going right now to NBC‘s Michael Okwu, who‘s along the motorcade route. 

Michael, how does it look from where you‘re at?

MICHAEL OKWU, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Well, I tell you something, Chris. 

This is a spectacular sight, if you haven‘t seen something like this before.  It feels almost like a holiday picnic, not exactly celebratory, but just people here reflecting on who President Ronald Reagan was.  It is a scene that we have seen repeated several times in several venues for the better part of a week, now.  Thousands of people lined up across this street waiting to see one last time, Ronald Reagan—Chris.

MATTHEWS:  Michael, how did—how long have those people been waiting there? How long have you been there with those people?

OKWU:  Well, I had to work, actually, Chris, but I can tell you this, but a lot of the people that I‘ve met this afternoon got here well before I did.  In fact, we were talking to people who got here at 6:00 in the morning to stake their claim to make sure that they had a great vantage point.  We even got to talk to people who came here as far as Tennessee.  In fact, Brenda here, I‘ve got two Brenda‘s, by the way, as luck should have it, came all the way from Tennessee with your husband. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes, I did. 

OKWU:  Tell me why you‘re here. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I‘m here right now to see one of the best presidents America ever had.  He was for the people, for the United States of America, and I loved him dearly, and there‘s nothing else I could do but come here and say goodbye.  That‘s all I could do.

(CROSSTALK)

OKWU:  What do you think you are going to feel when you see this motorcade roll by?

BRENDA:  Tears.  Teas.  Tears, sorrow, sadness, but yet a little happiness that he‘s not in any pain and anger anymore, you know, but sadness that we won‘t ever see him again. 

OKWU:  Yeah, I‘ve been hearing that sentiment all day.

Brenda, your last name is...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Barnum (ph). 

OKWU:  You were shaking your head furiously when you heard Brenda here say “tears.” 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Yes.  Definitely.  I‘ve been crying for the last few days.  And I‘ll probably do that again, but I loved him and I really—he was a wonderful man. 

OKWU:  Chris, you can see that Brenda and Brenda both have flags here, and I should tell that you this is not just a remembrance of Ronald Reagan, he seems to embody a sense of patriotism that people are exhibiting here today.  I have not seen this many flags since those awful, terrible days after September 11 in New York—Chris.

MATTHEWS:  OK.  Thank you very much, Michael Okwu. 

Let‘s go back, right now, to the Reagan Library itself, where we‘re going to have the interment service tonight.  Listen to the Navy Band. 

(MUSIC)

MATTHEWS:  We just saw Pat Sajak pass by with is wife, and Wayne Gretzky, one of the greatest athletes, well God, of all times, I think, in hockey. 

We‘re watching—listening to the Navy Band.  You know, I think back of all the years I‘ve known the name Ronald Reagan, going back to 1954, Jack, the theater, GE Theater and spending years watching him every night at 9:00 for years and then seeing him emerge with the Barry Goldwater campaign where he gave the one glowing speech of the campaign. 

KEMP:  Yeah, yeah.

MATTHEWS:  And he made his name in one night.  And then to go on to win the governorship and have two terms, a very popular governor.  And then run for president three times, one time against an incumbent Republican president and having the nerve to do that, and then winning the presidency with a 10-point spread, and then to serve—there‘s Mickey Rooney, of course, everyone knows him.  And what a career, it is impossible to imagine matching Ronald Reagan—to have your apprenticeship on television, to learn to do it on this medium, the first president to do that.

KEMP:  I think it gave him a tremendous opportunity to learn to gauge an audience, what stuck an audience—what struck a chord with an audience, and I think that lasted well into his presidential career. 

MATTHEWS:  And they always—the other side always underestimated him, especially in that first race for governor when Pat Brown, a nice guy, a popular guy at one point, the incumbent governor of this state, California, put out a TV advertisement against Ronald Reagan saying, “remember, it was an actor who shot Lincoln.” 

KEMP:  Yeah, oh I remember that.

MATTHEWS:  Talk about crude—a crude appeal to people‘s worst instincts and it turned out, of course, in this part of the country we‘re watching right now, there are a lot of people that depend on the film industry, and the television industry, and in every part of America, there are people who love movie stars. 

KEMP:  Yeah, yeah.  Look at Schwarzenegger. 

MATTHEWS:  And another—he‘s here tonight with his wife Maria Shriver.  And another fact they forgot, Ronald Reagan, in all those years on television, wasn‘t playing somebody, he was your host, Ronald Reagan.  For eight years he introduced himself to us, at home when a politician (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as you know, were out at dinners, hanging out with the boys, he was at home. 

Robert Loggia is also here, we just saw him.

KEMP:  Plus, he wrote all those speeches at GE.  Marty and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Anderson proved that he had done all of those speeches himself.  He written and had done the editing, it was a phenomenal record of speeches that they put together for the Reagan memory book. 

MATTHEWS:  Well, maybe someday, Jack, they‘ll make a movie of his life that‘s accurate. 

KEMP:  That‘ll be a first.  What did your boss, Tip O‘Neill think of him?

MATTHEWS:  He was very competitive with him, I mean, these are two Irish guys who are about the same age.  Very different backgrounds, one‘s an urban, ethnic politician, the other one‘s a Hollywood star.  I think he thought that the guy was very tough, let me put it that way.  And you know when he first discovered...

KEMP:  Tip was tough. 

MATTHEWS:  Tip was—tell me, I worked for him. 

The PATCO strike, what an odd thing for a Democratic liberal to say, but he said, and he had heard it from Gorbachev, from—Dwayne Andrews (ph) had come back from Moscow and said, “Those Russians take this guy seriously, because he had the nerve to break a strike.”  And let‘s be fair about this, I‘m pro union and most people are, but you were...

KEMP:  I‘ve president of the football player‘s union... 

MATTHEWS:  Wildcat strikes against government are illegal and they‘re wrong. 

KEMP:  Reagan did the right thing, he broke them. 

MATTHEWS:  And they should not have gone on strike—you should not have a wildcat strike in something so sensitive as air traffic control. 

KEMP:  I agree with that and Reagan was great just in doing it.

MATTHEWS:  He knew his strength and he used it and the world—I think in a lot of ways, that helped break the ice for the Soviet Union, they knew they were dealing with a heavyweight.  Let‘s listen to the Army Corps, right now. 

(MUSIC)

MATTHEWS:  I want to offer up the tribute the Ronald Reagan himself made to you in December of 1988, as he was leaving office.  “When I saddle up and ride into the sunset, it will be with the knowledge that we‘ve done great things, we kept faith with a promise as old as this land we love and as big as the sky, a brilliant vision of America as a shining city on a hill.  Thanks to all of you and with god‘s help, America‘s greatest chapter is still to be written, for the best is yet to come.”  That was an honor to you, Jack Kemp.  Thank you for joining us. 

KEMP:  Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS:  You are by the way, very much, connected intellectually to the Ronald Reagan legacy. 

KEMP:  Thank you.

MATTHEWS:  It was you who came one the idea of a major 30 percent tax cut, it ended up being a 25 percent across the board tax cut and it had your name on it, Jack Kemp. 

KEMP:  I stole it from John F. Kennedy. 

MATTHEWS:  Well...

KEMP:  He stole it from Calvin Coolidge who stole it from Abraham Lincoln who stole it from, I don‘t know, from the Book of Genesis. 

MATTHEWS:  Well, it wasn‘t an unpopular idea, cutting taxes, but it was a tricky thing in terms of national policy, to sell.  And you did it and what a night.  And, this is all coming to an end.  I have to say that this is such a day of mixed—mixed emotions.  Most funerals are simply sad, this is complicated.  People are so glad that this guy was here. 

KEMP:  Absolutely. 

MATTHEWS:  And, I think I see faces that aren‘t troubled as much as they‘re respectful. 

KEMP:  It was celebratory. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  The longest living ex-president.  I mean, he lived to 92.  The longest of any president.  It‘s rare for anyone to live that long, and to do it in good health until the last 10 years, the bad 10 years.

But, Jack Kemp, thank you.

KEMP:  Thank you, sir.

MATTHEWS:  Thank you, very much, Jack.

KEMP:  Thanks.

MATTHEWS:  Really, it‘s an honor to have Jack here tonight, you couldn‘t have a better guest. 

Let‘s listen now as we take a break from commentary and listen to the reality of the service, the band itself. 

(MUSIC)

MATTHEWS:  All right, joining us right now, is Ann McLaughlin Korologos, who served as President Reagan‘s secretary of the labor. 

ANN MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS, PRESIDENT REAGAN‘S, SECRETARY LABOR:  How are you, Chris?

MATTHEWS:  Wow, we‘re having all the people on tonight.  It‘s great.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  It‘s been a big reunion, all week here.

MATTHEWS:  You were there today?

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  I was. 

MATTHEWS:  What I was it like?

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  It was emotional, and it caused a great deal of reflection, I think, for all of us.  And I was struck with so many of the things that were said, especially by Mrs. Thatcher, who said she thought President Reagan had the ability to see many sides of the truth.  Which I thought was rather a lesson there for many of us.  I also found the remarks of President Bush, and it‘s true about President Reagan, his adversaries never became his enemies.  And when I was working for him, we had many tough issues and tough fights, but somehow, we sort of had a smile on our faces...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Wasn‘t senior—wasn‘t President Bush, Sr. great today?

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Wasn‘t he?  He got so choked up. 

MATTHEWS:  He was the emotional star of the occasion because he‘s not a great speaker and he knows it, and he‘s not a great politician and he knows it.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Well, you know...

MATTHEWS:  And he was paying tribute to a master, it was—it was like saying, I was his apprentice.  And I tried to learn from his magical man, I couldn‘t quite become magical like him, but he taught me everything I knew.  It‘s so great.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Well, not only did he get choked up, but I

liked it when he said

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  The speech seemed to turn from impersonal to personal at that very moment. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  There was so much quiet energy in that huge cathedral that you almost felt like one, if that‘s possible.  And you had so many—what?  Thirty—you have the number -- 34 representatives of various countries, heads of state, right down to people who worked for him, as we did, and the media and others, it was pretty extraordinary, but you felt like one.  I—my take away from the event was that he has left, he, President Reagan, has left a footprint on all our hearts and that‘s what I come away with, today.  I feel so much...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  It‘s too bad he couldn‘t see it, but I guess that‘s the way it is with funerals.  But I tell you, I kept thinking, he planned this with Nancy.  So many of the people he put on this—pallbearers, and he picked out the music.  And I‘m sure being a man of the cinema, did he imagine this, he imagined the route in his better years before he got really bad with Alzheimer‘s, and I keep thinking, all this is for us, really.  This is really for the people that knew him and respected him and it‘s so beautiful. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  It was, but I wonder, you know, you don‘t know unless somebody in the family tells us that he probably thought it was appropriate because he felt...

MATTHEWS:  Ah, Johnny Mathis. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  ...that he...

MATTHEWS:  He‘s looking good.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Isn‘t‘ he?

MATTHEWS:  Johnny Mathis, one of the greats.  How many guys went on dates with Johnny Mathis singing?

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  I must tell you...

MATTHEWS:  How many romances is he responsible for?  Let me—we just saw Tom Selleck who was on the—just played Ike in a wonderful production of Ike.  There‘s Tom Selleck, there he is right now—big guy.  Mickey Rooney.  Tom Selleck, Bo Derek, Pat Sajak we saw...

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  You‘re good recognizing them.  I must say.

MATTHEWS:  I know.  I love these guys.  They‘re my—I‘m one of the fans, you know? 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  I asked Ronald Reagan at dinner, at my home in 1986, I said “who has what you have in your”—and I went like this, I said “in your, you know, has the guts like you do, the moral compass (UNINTELLIGIBLE), has it in here?”  You‘ll be interested in the answer, he said “Two people I can think of.  Margaret Thatcher and Mack Baldridge (ph).” 

MATTHEWS:  Really?

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Yeah.  He thought they had it.

MATTHEWS:  Well, let‘s go right now to James Hattori, who‘s right there on the site we‘re watching.  Powerful stuff, this gathering for the final interment of Ronald Reagan—James. 

JAMES HATTORI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  That‘s right, Chris.  They‘re expecting some 700 guests and you mentioned some of them.  A lot of them are from Mr. Reagan‘s Hollywood days, as well as from the political scene, here in California.  We have former Governor Pete Wilson, former Governor George Deukmejian, as well as our current governor here, Arnold Schwarzenegger, and his wife, Maria Shriver, in addition to sports big-time figures, including Wayne Gretzky, who we had a chance to talk with earlier.  He said that Ronald Reagan would come up to hockey games sometimes, come in the locker room and kind of pal around with some of the players afterwards.  He was a big sports fan, of course. 

The motorcade is not expected to arrive here at the library for another half-hour or so.  Obviously, they‘re making their way along a 26-mile route from Point Mugu, probably going to be slowing down a bit as they pass some of the neighborhoods where thousands, undoubtedly, of people have gathered, some starting from early in the morning to stake out their seats along the route to get a chance to maybe wave a flag or say hello, get a glimpse of the hearse as it drives into the library compound. 

Once it gets here, the ceremony itself is going to last about an hour.  A couple of moments that we‘ll kind of be keeping an eye out for once it does arrive and the casket is taken into the library, there will be a chance—and we‘re not sure what the family is going to do—but there might be a chance for the family to have a bit of private time with the casket. 

This will be out of any sort of view of the media or anything.  And then, as you can see behind me, the motorcade is pulling into the library.  Chris, things are just about to get under way here. 

MATTHEWS:  OK, thank you very much, James Hattori. 

We‘re back with Ann McLaughlin Korologos.

And you were with the Reagan administration in so many different

roles.  You were with Judge Clark at Interior.  You were with Don Regan at

·         in Treasury.  And then you became a Cabinet member of your own.  I always ask this about Reagan, a man of his time, born in 1917.  How was he with professional women such as yourself? 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Oh, he was terrific. 

He was so comfortable in many, many ways.  And I‘ll tell you a quick story.  I had to brief him on demographics in the work force in 1987, that more women and minorities are coming into the work force.  Therefore, issues such as training, retraining, education and child care, working family issues would be an issue.  I met with him in the Oval Office.  I went through the demographics with him and I said that, in a few days, I‘m going to be announcing a child care study that we had done at the Labor Department. 

And he said, well—truly, he did.  Well, when I was head of the Screen Actors Guild, aware that many women actors, particularly, and men, had children, but they had be ready for that audition or that part, we arranged for the local church to have child care.  So I said, I‘m so relieved that you understand the issue.  And he said, of course I do.  And I said, well, I‘m going to get a little bruised on this issue at this time. 

He said, Ann, you only get bruised when you‘re trying to accomplish something, natural, comfortable, and just totally supportive of what were very—in 1987, those were still emerging issues.  And women coming into the work force and the numbers was quite significant, and just totally comfortable.

Another time, I‘ll tell you a funny...

MATTHEWS:  I should say, we‘re about a half-hour now from the motorcade carrying the body of the late president at the library, where he will be buried in about an hour from now, I believe, yes.        

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Just another illustration. 

When I was deputy at Interior, we had him come to the Blackwater Wildlife Refuge down here in Maryland.  And I was briefing him on the bald Eagle.  And I happened to have, needles to say, many pictures of that particular briefing.  And he‘s sitting there very interested.  Of course, he‘s an outdoorsman, and he loves his ranch and the country.  And he was struck because the bald eagle doesn‘t really get a white head until they‘re about 12.  And this was a young bald eagle being held by one of the Fish & Wildlife Service people.

Well, subsequently, I get the picture and he signed it, not auto-penned  It was “To Ann McLaughlin, thank you and appreciation,” and then, in parentheses, put, “Talk about getting the bird.”  Just great humor. 

(LAUGHTER)

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  And I‘m a girl.  So it didn‘t matter to him. 

He was just great with stories and fun. 

MATTHEWS:  Well, let me ask you about the way did he business, because we‘re learning how much of a great writer he was.  All those—well, nobody does this anymore. 

(CROSSTALK)

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Nobody knew that then.  They know now.

MATTHEWS:  It is going to be so hard to do history in 10, 20 years, because nobody—everybody is doing e-mail and they don‘t really know how to write anymore and they‘re on the phone.

He was a great letter writer, a great speechwriter. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Right. 

MATTHEWS:  All the time reading and all the time writing.  But he‘s also all those years accused of being basically a guy who came into a meeting and turned it over.

You know, when I worked for Tip O‘Neill, he could come back grousing, all the guy does is turn it over to Cap Weinberger.  He reads those cards and he turns it over to Weinberger.

So what‘s the truth here?  How micromanage—much of a micromanager was he and how much of a big, bold strokes guy was he? 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Yes, he was clearly broad strokes.  He wasn‘t a micromanager. 

And yet, as I illustrated in my story about the child care, he could relate to the micro, if you will, on some detail at the Labor Department.  But, on the other hand, he really came—as we used to say, he worked from his outbox, not his inbox.  He set the broad parameters.  He had purpose. 

And some called it a vision.  I would like to think it was purpose that was led by a conviction that the American public deserved more.  And he did believe they could spend their money better than the government could.  He did believe all of the unleashing, if you will, the energy of the business community with better regulation and deregulation and reregulation.  And I think that was what—the word used today, leadership.  Yes, that‘s what it is all about. 

MATTHEWS:  What was it like getting back together with your old colleagues?  I hear there was a very quiet meeting of the old Reagan Cabinet today.  

(CROSSTALK)

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Yes.  Well, I don‘t know how quiet it was. 

(LAUGHTER)

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  As a matter of fact.

MATTHEWS:  Secret.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Secret, private.  It was a lot of fun, because I think that many of us hadn‘t seen one another in a good number of years.  And, sadly, things like this bring you together. 

I have to say that, in one way, we probably didn‘t miss a step.  All of sudden, here you all are again, just like before. 

MATTHEWS:  Just like a college reunion. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  And we probably still had our old same issues and stories that we wanted to tell yet again or points we wanted to make.

But it was—I think we—it was a sense of gratitude that we had the opportunity to work with such a great man.  And he was.  And he was fun.  And so the thing is, we all sort of smiled, because there‘s one story after another that is just so much fun. 

MATTHEWS:  Boy, you‘re a loyal bunch, I must say.

And I look at the way this week has turned out and I see you‘ve all come out to do this program, come on MSNBC, and the other programs around the country.  And you‘re all out here.  Mike Deaver is out.  You‘re out.  Judge Clark was out the other day to talk about his pro-life concerns out there.  Everyone is out there.  We had Ed Meese on looking like a million bucks, I‘ve got to tell you.  He‘s been drinking some kind of elixir lately.  He looks great. 

(CROSSTALK)

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  But don‘t you think we come to see when you invite us? 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Well, that‘s true.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  It sort of works that way. 

MATTHEWS:  Ken has been on this show a million times, Deaver a lot.  I have a lot of guys on from that administration. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  I should have you on more often, obviously. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  You should.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  But it is amazing.  You‘re quite a rear guard, you know that? 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Yes.  I think you‘re right. 

And I think, you know, one of the things in the Reagan administration that I thought was significant is that there was, as I say, purpose.  And, yes, there was an idealism to it.  But I think, more than that, you could go anywhere in the administration and you would pretty well get the same answer.  It‘s not like you would shop around. 

And I think it wasn‘t because there was a rigidity or a policeman.  It was because of the utter belief in what this man was doing. 

MATTHEWS:  Look who is coming.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Oh, the new governor.

MATTHEWS:  Boy, they look great.  That‘s Maria Shriver and her husband, Arnold Schwarzenegger.  Probably one of the most well known persons in the entire world is walking right there.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  I guess.  I guess.

MATTHEWS:  He may be governor of California, but he is known in every continent in every school.  They know this guy as the Terminator, etcetera, etcetera, all those big roles he played in movies that didn‘t require a lot of translation, right? 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  That‘s right. 

MATTHEWS:  That was one of the advantages of being an Arnold Schwarzenegger. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  It was all muscle, right?

MATTHEWS:  It was about action.  Let‘s put it that way. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  And very few words, a Clint Eastwood kind of guy, and very much glamorous guy, went out and watched him campaign, bigger than Reagan was when he ran for governor, much—huge star.

(CROSSTALK)

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Well, he had a bigger reputation.  That‘s right. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  But he‘s also an entrepreneur.  He has a lot of the Reagan qualities as an entrepreneur, as a free market believer.

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  As a quality of leadership, clearly.  A lot of people didn‘t believe he could do what he has already done out there. 

MATTHEWS:  Yes. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  He‘s doing it. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Well, I don‘t think—well, let me ask you this.  Would he have ever been governor if there hadn‘t been a successful Reagan governorship? 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  That‘s a good question. 

MATTHEWS:  Would an actor have been elected?

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Good question.  Don‘t know.  I don‘t know.

MATTHEWS:  There is he talking to Pete Wilson, who was his adviser during the last special election campaign of last fall, had so much to do with I think encouraging him to run.  There they are conferring again.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Well, I think being an actor and also being a celebrity today is a help, because the exposure is so much greater than even with President Reagan when he was in business, if you will, so much more. 

MATTHEWS:  You know when I knew he would win?  MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  When?

MATTHEWS:  I was in Modesto watching him campaign.  And his campaign bus was about to pull out.  And a little 10-year-old kid went up and just touched the bus and ran away.  For one time in his life, that 10-year-old kid was coming in direct contact with worldwide celebrity. 

That kind power eventually has its way, I think.  And what a celebrity

he is.  It‘s hard to put it together sometimes.  President Reagan is

credited with being a driving force—well, I‘m beginning a thought here -

·         behind the rebirth of the Republican Party. 

MSNBC‘s Keith Olbermann looks at how Ronald Reagan‘s political path could have been dramatically different because of the naming of a running mate. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KEITH OLBERMANN, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  History often pivots on the head of a pin.  The textbooks say Ronald Reagan won all four of his elections and all in landslides. 

They textbooks ignore his brief joust for the Republican presidential nomination in 1968 and, more importantly, his hammer-and-tongs battle with incumbent President Gerald Ford in 1976.  Not only did Ford stave Reagan off, but he also did not, as many hoped, select or convince Reagan to run with him as vice president.  And then Ford, with Bob Dole on his ticket, lost the White House to Jimmy Carter, the first pivot on the head of a pin. 

Reagan doesn‘t get the nomination, is not tarred alongside Ford by defeat at the polls, doesn‘t get stuck as his vice president during the lean years of the late ‘70s.  But the tiniest head of the pin would come four years later.  Reagan rolls to the Republican nomination, but Ford is still a very forceful figure in the party.  How forceful?  July 16, 1980. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Good evening from Detroit, where a mighty effort is under way tonight to get former President Gerald R. Ford to run for vice president on a ticket headed by Ronald Reagan. 

OLBERMANN:  Find that in the history books, even in its simple form.  The real story was far more complicated.  It involved not just Ford and Reagan, but also Henry Kissinger, using not shuttle, but elevator diplomacy. 

DAVID BRINKLEY, NEWS ANCHOR:  Kissinger and other members, other people, have been involved in negotiating during the day.  Ford stated certain conditions under which he would accept the nomination for vice president. 

OLBERMANN:  The conditions for having an ex-president run as vice president?  According to many witnesses, including Reagan‘s foreign policy adviser, later national security adviser, Richard Allen, Reagan himself recited them in the hotel room from which he watched the 1980 Republican Convention unfold in Detroit. 

Ford wants Kissinger as secretary of state and Greenspan at Treasury, he said.  Even Ford addressed his role in a would-be Reagan administration on television as Reagan watched.  “Did you hear what he said about his role?” Reagan told Carl Cannon.  “Sounds like he wants to be a co-president”—another pivot atop another pin. 

RONALD REAGAN ®, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  It is true that a number of Republican leaders, people in our party, office holders, felt, as I‘m sure many others have felt, that a proper ticket would have included the former president of the United States, Gerald Ford, as second place on the ticket. 

He and I have come to the conclusion and he believes deeply that he can be of more value as the former president campaigning his heart out, which he has pledged to do. 

OLBERMANN:  And with that, Reagan for president, Ford for vice president was dead, dead so late in that Detroit night that stories of Ford‘s selection as V.P. made it into some Eastern newspapers and radio newscasts.  With the unprecedented ticket now smashed, history had yet another head of the pin on which to pivot. 

GEORGE H.W. BUSH ®, VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  Just a few minutes before he appeared at the convention, out of a clear blue sky, I might add, Governor Reagan called me up and asked if I would be willing to run with him on this ticket. 

OLBERMANN:  Could Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford have defeated Jimmy Carter?  Could Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford have defeated themselves during a virtual co-presidency?  And what would have happened to that guy Bush?  And didn‘t he have a son or something? 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS:  That‘s great stuff, Keith. 

Ann, you were there you were telling me about that—you were all there.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  I was there in Detroit.  I remember.

MATTHEWS:  It happened that way?  Keith got it right? 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  There was all that behind the scenes going on. 

You would not believe it.  And there were people who were for it, people who were against it, people who were bewildered by the idea.  So it all comes out.  I‘ve learned long ago just somehow let the universe take care of these things, because it is beyond—beyond me. 

MATTHEWS:  It‘s not beyond our imagination, because the current vice president, Dick Cheney, has a hell of a lot of power. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Sure.

MATTHEWS:  A lot of power.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  He does have a lot of power.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Maybe not as much as Jerry Ford wanted to get, but a lot. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Well, when was it we thought that the job was too big for one person?  That was part of that, right?

MATTHEWS:  Under Jimmy Carter. 

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Yes. 

MATTHEWS:  You stuck it in again.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Yes. 

MATTHEWS:  You couldn‘t resist.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  Ann Carter—I mean Ann McLaughlin Korologos.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Not yet.

MATTHEWS:  Thank you, dear, for coming in.  It‘s great to have you on.

MCLAUGHLIN KOROLOGOS:  Thanks, Chris.  Great to be here. 

MATTHEWS:  We‘re going go right to Michael Okwu.  He was on the parade route.  He is still, Michael Okwu of NBC.

Tell us what you see right now, Michael.  Michael?

MICHAEL OKWU, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Chris, I‘m here with a couple guests.  I‘m here with a couple guests who have been waiting for hours to get the final glimpse of Ronald Reagan‘s motorcade. 

Give me your name, Miss.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Christina Harrison (ph). 

OKWU:  And you are? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Kathleen Haberman (ph). 

And you both came here today.  You don‘t live far from the area, but you wanted to make sure to see Ronald Reagan one last time.  Why is that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  We just wanted to be a part of it. 

We—Ronald Reagan was president while I was in high school and college.  And I believe he is a great American.  We supported him politically while he was alive.  And we went to his inauguration in 1984 and wanted to be here at the end of it all. 

OKWU:  What do you think you‘re going to be feeling when this motorcade rolls by for the very last time? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I‘m sure I‘ll be sad.  I‘ll think I‘ll be more proud than ever to be an American and just remember the great things he did for this country.

OKWU:  Obviously, this is—has to have been the buzz for the past week or so.  What are people talking about?  Are they talking about his legacy, the things he accomplished as president?  Or are they talking about Ronald Reagan the man? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think they‘re talking about some of the things he accomplished as president, as far as winning the Cold War and lowering taxes and things like that.

But more of it is the man as a leader, as someone that made America feel good about itself again and really made patriotism popular. 

OKWU:  You get the sense talking to people that it‘s a bygone era, that Reagan ushered this new period in American history, and that when he left, it was over.  Is that the sense that you have? 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I don‘t think so.  I think, especially this community, because this is a very pro-Republican, very Reagan-oriented area, because we are privileged to have the Reagan Library here and are fortunate enough to have it so close to visit often. 

OKWU:  Well, it‘s a day of mourning.  But my question for both of you is, are people sad here?  Because I don‘t get the sense of sadness, necessarily.  It almost feels like a sort of a subdued picnic. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think they‘re celebrating a great man.  You see the children trying to get everyone to “Sing God Bless America.”  And it‘s a celebration of America.  And I think that‘s what he would have waned.

OKWU:  Let me ask you that same question.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think a lot of people are here to support the Reagan family and Nancy, as she has stood so stoically next to her husband in good times and bad.  And this is really her final send-off.  And I think we‘re here to support her as well. 

OKWU:  Well, Chris, this is a sentiment we‘ve been hearing for a lot of people.  Now, these two women happen to be Republicans.  And they talk about the fact that this is a Republican stronghold here in California. 

But I‘ve also talked to independents and Democrats who may not have agreed with Ronald Reagan‘s policies as president, but really believed and respected him as a man.  And so they wanted to make sure to be here as well to pay their last respects—Chris.

MATTHEWS:  Thank you very much, Michael Okwu.

We‘re back with Patrick Buchanan, who served under Ronald Reagan for all those years. 

You know, once again, I‘m struck by the unity of the Republican Party and the coming back of the Reagan Democrats, you might say, in this environment as he‘s being buried.

PAT BUCHANAN, NBC POLITICAL ANALYST:  Well, you‘re exactly right, Chris. 

It is amazing the unity of the country and the efforts being made by old adversaries and folks all over this city to remember the best about him, to speak about him, about his humor, about his wit, about how he was a battler for what he believed him.  But, at the same time, he did not antagonize, alienate people. 

I think this has—frankly, this has been a wonderful week in this

city.  I know it is sad and tragic, but we have a sense of unity I think in

this city now that we have not seen since 9/11.  And that was after a day

of horror.  And this is a real celebration of a man‘s life.  And it is very

positive.  And I‘m afraid we‘ll probably get back to our petty partisanship

by the end of next week. 

MATTHEWS:  I think Monday. 

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  HARDBALL will be back. 

I was watching—there‘s Arnold Schwarzenegger and Maria Shriver. 

Boy, they‘re a glamorous couple. 

BUCHANAN:  Yes.  Yes. 

MATTHEWS:  It seems to me, you‘re right.  And you know what I like about this week, is, it‘s full of surprises.  And the surprise is the harmony.  And the fact is that the other side is giving the conservatives their day.  There‘s no one trying to horn in on it and say, but you forgot this part.  No one said that this week. 

(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN:  And you know what I‘m astonished?

Chris, we all expected one day—you and I have had calls.  They say Ronald Reagan is sinking and you‘ve got to be ready. 

MATTHEWS:  Sure.

I‘m astonished at the depth and magnitude and the extent of the hour-to-hour coverage.  It is phenomenal.  I never expected anything like this. 

MATTHEWS:  Do you think part of it is patriotism, just simply that? 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  That this guy loved his country and people want a chance to come home from a foreign argument, an argument about a war, too much ethnic complexity in this thing over there in Iraq? 

BUCHANAN:  I think...

MATTHEWS:  People want to come home and say, let‘s talk about this country for a while.  And let‘s talk a guy who loved this place.  Let‘s do a time-out for a week or so here. 

BUCHANAN:  You know, I think what this is, America is like a family which is squabbling and quarreling and contentious.  But now the father, this beloved figure, has passed away.  And there‘s a feeling among Americans, I think, that we would like to be together.  We would like some cause—and this is a real cause of unity on which everyone can agree. 

But I agree that a lot of folks, I‘m sure, that feel Reagan‘s policies were too tough maybe on cutting social programs or something like that, have put it on the shelf.

MATTHEWS:  You see that, Pat?  Look over there, that great picture over there on the left, people getting out of their cars on the other way, on the freeway, or the highway, getting out just to watch. 

BUCHANAN:  Yes. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  Boy, it sure beats the O.J. Bronco ride, I can tell you that.  It is a moment in American history.  It‘s sublime.  It‘s positive. 

BUCHANAN:  Right. 

MATTHEWS:  It‘s great. 

BUCHANAN:  They‘re watching the Gipper going home for the last time in California, the state that he really loved. 

I heard—I guess folks were saying, someone today—or maybe it was this week—that they were surprised that he wouldn‘t want to be buried in Washington or Arlington or something like that.  Ronald Reagan loved California, even though he was from Illinois.  He was a real true Californian. 

When we went out there in August, he would say, you boys stay down there in Santa Barbara.  I‘m going up on the ranch.  And you might have to put in a call in the morning.  Sir, there‘s nothing going on.  Fine.  I‘m going out and chop some wood or ride the horses.  And he really loved to get away from—this was really home to him. 

MATTHEWS:  Remember the—be the first stop in California, I think, in his life.  And this is the last stop, when he went out there.  Remember the story about he went out there.  He was covering baseball for the radio. 

BUCHANAN:  The Cubs. 

MATTHEWS:  The Cubs. 

And they were going out there for their training, spring training, in Catalina Island.  And he said, I have got an old friend down here.  I think I‘m going to look him up and talk about the movies maybe.  And he had a screen test.  And the next thing you know, he‘s the Gipper. 

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS:  That is one thing in his life that was, I would say, lucky, that quick break. 

BUCHANAN:  Ain‘t it really something to go out—you‘re exactly

right.  That is really storybook legend stuff, to go out there as a

sportscaster and wind up as a famous

(CROSSTALK)  

MATTHEWS:  So much of his life was like that.  Let‘s listen to the band. 

(MUSIC)

MATTHEWS:  You know, it‘s interesting.  We‘re watching the motorcade as it continues toward the Simi Valley location of the Reagan Library. 

And, of course, I‘m also looking ahead at the pictures we‘re going to be seeing tonight of the setting of the remarks of the family members, that beautiful view behind the library we‘re all going to see in a few minutes.  It is a spectacular place.  It is up on the hills.  It‘s in—I believe it is a part of the state of California where they used to shoot a lot of cowboy movies. 

You can imagine him riding through these foothills and having the shoot-outs, very untouched, very virginal land, rough land.  And it‘s just California at its best.  In fact, beyond the hills is the Pacific Ocean.  And, of course, we learned that the initial goal was to have the Reagan Library at the University of—the Stanford University, the location of the Hoover Library up there. 

But so often, this happens, Pat.  Remember, the Kennedys, they wanted their library at Harvard.  And they got sort of stiffed there, more or less.  And then they went down to Columbia Point. 

(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN:  Well, this is a beautiful sight. 

But, you know, Chris, you mentioned earlier, to see that hearse move up that highway and many of these cars, in effect, stopping in final salute of the people of California, who know of course the president is coming home for his final rest, I think is—it is quite a picture, quite a picture. 

(MUSIC)

MATTHEWS:  God, I smell food.

We‘re watching the motorcade.  There‘s the hearse going north on the California highway.  This has been a long road home.  But what I like about it, we all like about it is, it shows the breadth of this country, a service which began on the West Coast, commuted back to Washington, where the president served, and then commuting now again back to his roots. 

It is a wonderful sort of, well, cultural map of this country, how people come from where they come from and they go to serve and they‘re honored there when they die, but go back to where they are—are from to be buried.  It‘s a big country.  And that‘s a big statement about us, isn‘t it?

BUCHANAN:  It was a real grace touch to have that giant 28000, where they call it in the White House Air Force One, do a flyover of Tampico, Illinois. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

BUCHANAN:  This hometown of the Gipper and the heart of America.  This whole thing has been—I think, just been done with extraordinary class and taste. 

At that funeral today, Chris, when you saw “The Battle”—heard “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” and “Amazing Grace,” you thought to yourself, you know, Ronald Reagan would have loved this. 

MATTHEWS:  Oh, so true.

BUCHANAN:  And I guess he must have planned and must have requested each of these songs to be sung at his own funeral. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  How about Gorbachev sitting there chatting with Brian Mulroney and Margaret Thatcher?  You didn‘t see that being there.  We were watching on television, these three iconic figures just chatting about their old pal. 

BUCHANAN:  If you would have told me.  I was with Ronald Reagan in Geneva and Reykjavik.  And if you had told me that Gorbachev and Margaret Thatcher would be there at his funeral celebrating him and Gorbachev would be going up and touching the casket, this tough customer communist that we saw there in Geneva, I thought he was the toughest communist since Khrushchev. 

MATTHEWS:  Right. 

And all the other people there, of course, it was a great collection.  As I said to somebody earlier today, it reminded me of one of those old wonderful photographs that used to be in I think “LIFE” magazine of the entire MGM world, of all the contract players together and all the movie stars. 

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS:  You had Karzai, who is head of Afghanistan.  You had Ghazi, the new president of the interim government of Iraq.  You had Valery Giscard D‘Estaing was there, the former president of France.  Amazing.  I think the prince of Wales was there. 

BUCHANAN:  I think Charles came up behind—he was the only one that came up behind the casket. 

Let me tell you something else, Chris.  A friend of yours and mine, Hugh Sidey, he was walking almost right behind Mrs. Reagan.  My guess is that Hugh Sidey is probably riding a special piece for “TIME” magazine, maybe for this Monday, because he was right there with her.  And I think he probably—I believe he went back to California.  We‘ll find that out. 

MATTHEWS:  He did.  I saw him getting off the plane.  I think you‘re right.  He will write one of those “TIME” magazine columns, I‘m sure this weekend.

BUCHANAN:  He‘s a wonderful writer.

MATTHEWS:  Like Teddy White did for Jackie Kennedy after Dallas. 

Let‘s listen again to this band.  It is called the United States Air Force Band of the Golden West.  And they‘ve been performing this prelude now for a while, getting ready to begin their program when the motorcade arrives.

(MUSIC)

MATTHEWS:  Our special coverage, as America says farewell to President Reagan, continues.

END   

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