All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, July 1st, 2013
Read the transcript from the Monday show
ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
July 1, 2013
Guests: Leticia Van De Putte, Connie Schultz, Nicole Lamoureux, Karen
Desoto, Danielle Cadet
CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Good evening, from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.
Tonight on ALL IN:
This was the creepy looking logo for a creepy sounding government
surveillance program called Total Information Awareness that was introduced
shortly after 9/11 -- a program to basically record and analyze all digital
information generated by U.S. citizens. After it became public, it was
officially discontinued and our government never again used technology to
spy on the communications of American citizens.
No, I`m just kidding. They are totally still doing that. My commentary on
that is coming up.
Also, tonight, the Republicans` never ending war on Obamacare may be
nothing but the political posturing of a few dead-enders but it is having a
real effect for millions of Americans and the ability for some people to
get basic health care in this country. We`ll show you how politics really
can hurt real people, coming up.
But we begin tonight with this photo of Ohio Governor John Kasich signing
into law a new state budget that includes some of the most restrictive
abortion rules in the entire country. Yes, it`s another image to add to
our growing slide show collection, photos of old white men working to take
away the reproductive choices of American women.
We saw it just a couple months ago in the House when Congressman Trent
Franks held a hearing with an all-male congressional panel about a bill to
propose a nationwide ban on abortion after 20 weeks.
There was, of course, last year`s infamous all-male witness panel at a
House hearing on contraception coverage under Obamacare. And who, of
course, can forget the classic, iconic President Bush in 2003 signing the
partial birth abortion ban bill surrounded by a bevy of beaming dudes?
On Sunday night, Ohio Governor John Kasich placed himself firmly in the
shameful tradition, signing a bill that requires abortion providers to
perform an ultrasound on any woman seeking abortion and requires the doctor
not only to inform the woman if a fetal heartbeat is found, but also to ask
her if she`d like to listen to it. It bans public hospitals from a ranging
transfer agreements with abortion providers, reprioritizes funding, almost
surely resulting in drastic cuts for family planning group, and -- get this
-- cuts public funding for rape crisis clinics if they counsel rape victims
on abortion options.
Think about that, you`re a rape victim, you walk into a rape crisis center,
and the counselor cannot talk about abortion with you at the risk of
cutting off the funding for the organization.
And as Ohio State Senator Nina Turner told me on Friday night, all this was
added to the budget at the very last moment. No hearings. No debate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STATE SEN. NINA TURNER (D), OHIO: They put provisions in like thieves in
the night, like cowards that they are. They didn`t even have the decency
to have their anti-woman legislation stand alone so that we can debate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Those restrictions are the strictest in the country, they`re now
the law in Ohio. This particular chapter in the battle over women`s bodies
in Ohio is over, and the fate of the Ohio government and lawmakers will be
left to the voters of Ohio.
The battle in Texas, however, is just entering its dramatic third act.
Today, thousands of people lined up around the Texas state capitol to make
their presence known on the first day of the special legislative session
called by Governor Perry. His attempt to ram through a restrictive
abortion bill Republicans were not able to pass last week, thanks to State
Senator Wendy Davis` epic and now famous filibuster.
It`s actually quite a star-studded event in the capital. Natalie Maines of
the Dixie Chicks who`s had a few scrapes with Republicans in the past was
out on the steps singing the national anthem and her Bush era classic, "Not
Ready to Make Nice."
Texas native and former "Law & Order" star Stephanie March also showed up
to give Texas lawmakers a piece of her mind.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANIE MARCH, ACTRESS: The idea -- the idea that anyone has the right
to tell me what to do with my body, particularly a politician, is
ludicrous. Make no mistake: if we were here to pass a bill today
legislating what men could do with their penises, they`d lose their minds.
I`ve said it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: State Representative Senfronia Thompson led the crowd with a
booming chant of women will not be bullied. State Senator Leticia Van De
Putte took a victory lap for a crucial role during the people`s filibuster
And it was Wendy Davis` turn to thank the crowd that literally carried her
over the finish line during her 11-hour filibuster and once again she took
aim straight at Governor Rick Perry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STATE SEN. WENDY DAVIS (D), TEXAS: Let`s remind Governor Perry that
fairness is and always will be a fundamental Texas value.
Texans deserve someone who will stand up for them and their values. It
shouldn`t be unusual for a public official to stand and fight for the men
and women who elected them. It should be a job requirement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Now, truly inspiring protests aside, Texas observers are already
saying that Texas Republicans have learned their lesson from last week and
will figure out a way to get the restrictive abortion bill passed. That
may be so.
You know, I look at pictures of thousands of people on the steps of the
capitol on a Monday at noon fighting in a state that has had a moribund
Democrat Party for so, so long. And I`m reminded of an organizer saying,
you can`t win if you don`t fight.
Joining me now is Texas State Senator Leticia Van De Putte, a Democrat who
represents district 26, which includes San Antonio.
And, Senator, my first question is, were you surprised by the turnout on
this Monday, at noon on a Monday, on the steps of the Capitol?
STATE SEN. LETICIA VAN DE PUTTE (D), TEXAS: In the Texas heat in July, we
thought there may be a couple hundred people, maybe 1,000. But over 6,000
showed up outside and probably another 2,000 inside. We have never seen
anything like this in Texas government.
HAYES: So here`s my question to you. There are people on the other side
of this issue, and the governor is one of them, Lieutenant Governor
Dewhurst is basely saying, OK, this is a very vocal minority, we`re in
Texas after all. These people elected us, governor and lieutenant
governor. They gave us big majorities in both Houses.
And all these rallies, all these folks, it`s in Austin, and sure you can
get -- Lieutenant Governor Dewhurst even made mention to socialist and
Occupy people, you can get this vocal minority. But the vast majority of
Texans are behind this legislation and they want to see us get it done in
this special session.
VAN DE PUTTE: I think he`s really confused. What he is failing to
recognize is that the majority of the people there today weren`t our
activist Democrats. In fact, I wish they were. These were people who
said, enough is enough, and particularly women and the men who support the
women in their lives. I mean, what`s happened with Texas Republicans is
that they only pander to those that are going to vote in the Republican
primary, forgetting the majority of Texans.
HAYES: So here`s my question. Today, the Senate was put into session and
then recessed I believe until July 9th. There`s going to be House hearings
tomorrow if I`m not mistaken. Everyone is saying, I want to read you
Lieutenant Governor Dewhurst`s point on this. "We`re not going to get it
back in the House within filibuster range." He`s talking about the
abortion restriction bill. We`re going to make sure we`ve got plenty of
time and no human being can talk for two weeks."
They seem to have a game plan where they think there`s nothing that you or
Wendy Davis or anyone else can do to stop this bill from getting passed in
the special session.
VAN DE PUTTE: Oh, they have a game plan, all right. The first play in
that playbook is limit public testimony. So, tomorrow in the House, it`s
now a new number because we`re a new special session. So it`s House bill 2
and they`re going to start testimony a3:30 in the afternoon but end
testimony right at midnight.
And so, play number one is stop the public from voicing their opinion,
which has never been done.
HAYES: So I want to remind folks of how this all got kicked off. There
was a kind of people`s testimony that happened around these bills before
the Wendy Davis filibuster in which activist came in from all over the
state, drove in from miles and gave their testimony, how this bill would
close down clinics around the state, particularly in remote areas where
people won`t have access to this kind of care. They talked and talked and
the Republican chair tried to shut them down. They yelled back.
That was kind of the spark of when happened. You`re saying tomorrow they
learned their lesson and going to truncate how many voices are heard in
VAN DE PUTTE: That`s correct. So the way you get things through in a very
quick manner, even in a 30-day special session, is you don`t let the public
speak. So they know that there are thousands of people that are going to
So, in their playbook, the new rules are we`ll start at 3:30 and, oh, by
the way, we`re going to end until midnight, when so many of the house
hearings last well into the morning during the regular session.
So what they can`t get done in a normal manner, they`re going to shut out
all rules and do anything to pass these bills.
HAYES: So all eyes tomorrow, then, on this House hearing, and I imagine
activists and other folks and regular people who are on steps today are
preparing themselves to show up to testify. It`s going to be a big
question about whether they gavel that close at midnight tomorrow night.
VAN DE PUTTE: I think they`re going to gavel, but what they don`t
understand, these aren`t just activists. I mean, I recognize some people,
but these are just folks who through the Internet, and because of the
press, has seen what this horrible agenda is: attacking women, demeaning
women, and endangering them in their health care.
HAYES: Texas State Senator Leticia Van De Putte, thank you so much for
VAN DE PUTTE: Thank you.
HAYES: Joining me now is Connie Schultz, Pulitzer Prize-winning nationally
syndicated columnist based in Ohio.
Connie, my first question to you is, looking at Texas and uprising it
sparked there, do you feel like Ohio Republicans got away with something
this weekend by getting this signed into the budget?
CONNIE SCHULTZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Yes, they sure did. In fact, it was
so outrageous a number of newspapers editorialized against it, which you`ve
don`t see a lot here in Ohio, including "The Cincinnati Enquirer," which is
one of the most, I would say the most conservative editorial board in the
country, and said they had no business doing this and Kasich should have
vetoed it. Of course, he didn`t.
That was some photo, wasn`t it?
HAYES: It was an amazing photo. The thing I find jaw dropping about it
is, you know, when you talk about abortion politics in this country, it`s
the case, gender breakdowns on polling a lot of this is remarkably equal
often. And there are a whole lot of women in this country who believe that
every abortion is horrible, evil, it`s murder, et cetera.
And yet the people engineering these bills can never quite seem to
understand to maybe find some of their women colleagues to include in these
photos. To me, it`s so revealing about the power structure of what`s going
on and we`re talking about this kind of legislation.
SCHULTZ: Well, it`s so insulting to Ohio`s women. This was an arrogance -
- and I would take it further, this was a disdain for women.
And when you look what unfolded and you look at that picture her, what that
telegraphs to all of the women in Ohio is they don`t care what we think.
Kasich thinks he can win with his majority of male voters in popularity
poll and he just thinks that he can ignore women`s rights and get away with
it and get re-elected. I don`t see how you can take any other message from
This is about sex, this is about power, and this is about they`re imposing
the morality on all the rest of us. I tell you, I had a lot of
conversations today with leadership, both with Ohio NARAL, with Kelly
Copeland, then with Stephanie, excuse me, at Planned Parenthood, and it`s
so clear that they`re right now just trying to figure out what exactly
they`re going to be able to do to challenge these laws. You got -- you
know, they sneak them in, in a budget bill. There`s no debate. It sounds
very similar to Texas. I was just listening to the senator.
SCHULTZ: It`s very secretive. Now the challenge is how do we let everyone
know about this? How -- I am convinced that a lot of voters, particularly
women in Ohio, have no idea yet what happened.
HAYES: You know, that`s exactly my question because the way this all got
passed, using it, putting it in the budget, going through the budget
process, not having big hearings on this, and the fact that this was a deal
with the devil that Kasich made with the kind of right-wing base of the
Republican Party. My question to you is: how many Ohio voters wake up
today knowing what just -- I mean, when I read the details, you have a
woman who`s in front of you in a rape crisis center and having a
conversation with her, and if you talk about abortion, you could look at
your funding get cut. I mean, that`s genuinely draconian.
SCHULTZ: Well, yes, Stephanie and I were talking about that today. The
thing that a lot of people don`t know yet is potentially 13 counties could
be -- could lose the only family planning clinics they have. We`re not
talking about Planned Parenthood clinics but other clinics that provide the
only family services to women in the entire county and could lose it
because of the cuts in funding. This is really -- this is big.
Also, you know, I`ve been wondering this today. Where are the doctors?
Not the doctors who provide abortion services. Where are the podiatrists
and the oncologists and every other kind of doctor? Because what the
governor has signed into law is that it`s OK now to provide an actual
script for a doctor to read to his patient. That`s how interventionist
SCHULTZ: That they`re telling -- the good news is, what a lot of people
don`t understand about this bill is the doctor can -- we`ll have to read
that script. He or she will have to read the script. But then he or she
can go on to explain what he or she actually thinks is happening.
HAYES: Well, there`s also, I mean, I was reading some of the coverage
today. There`s some question about legal avenues challenged, because that
sounds tremendously like compelled speech to me which is in constitutional
dicey territory, along with other parts of this bill.
Columnist Connie Schultz, thank you so much for your time tonight.
HAYES: Coming up, Republicans take aim at Barack Obama and hit working
people with no health insurance.
HAYES: If you thought Republicans were satisfied having cast dozens of
symbolic votes to repeal Obama care, you should know the fight against
health reform is shifting to new ground. We have officially arrived at the
kitchen sink stage of the battle complete with criminal sidewalk chalking
and firmly worded letters to the NFL. The bizarre new battle over
Obamacare implementation is next.
Plus, the day after George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin in Sanford,
Florida, he learned to the scene of the shooting with police. That visit
was captured on tape and was played in court today. It`s a narrative that
is both gripping and chilling. That`s coming up.
HAYES: If the competition for America`s worst governor for a sport that
could be wagered on, I`d be putting a lot of money on Pennsylvania`s Tom
Corbett. Now, he`s not a brand name favorite like Rick Perry of Texas or
Rick Scott of Florida or an unknown like Paula LePage of Maine.
Now, Tom Corbett is solid dark horse, quietly making his run for America`s
worst governor thanks to stories like this one. It`s the arrest of an
activist whose crime was drawing a message in chalk outside the governor`s
mansion last week. The police citation indicates A.J. Marin was charged
with disorderly conduct and states, "The above did engage in an action that
served no legitimate purpose and that he did write derogatory remarks about
the governor on the sidewalk."
And here are those remarks, so derogatory and disrespectful they prompted
the arrest of this man. You may want to send young children out of the
room. He wrote, I`m quoting here directly, "Corbett has health care, we
Sorry you had to see that, America. People are clearly angry. I mean,
this message was written against Tom Corbett`s latest move in America`s
worst governor competition. Corbett exposes the expansion of Medicaid to
cover uninsured Pennsylvanians under Obamacare. In doing so, his state,
Pennsylvania, will walk away from $4 billion for the next three years and
leave an estimated 700,000 residents without state-provided health
If you were to sketch the worst caricature of a Republican, you`d describe
him as maniacally obsessed with destroying Barack Obama and cruelly
indifferent to the lives of the non-rich, cartoonish villain who wants to
dash people`s hopes of finally getting affordable health insurance purely
out of spite.
And yet here we are with Republicans in 21 states and six still up in the
air looking to deny low-income residents federally funded health coverage.
It`s not just at the state level. In the Senate, Mitch McConnell and John
Cornyn are sending letters to professional sports leagues like the NFL and
NASCAR telling them not to cooperate with any promotion about upcoming
health care implementation, warning the leagues against taking sides on
We are seeing an entire national party dedicated to a form of sabotage.
The intent of which is to make sure that the ordinary working people have a
hard time getting health insurance. That`s it. I mean, think about how
perverse that is.
We`re the Republican Party and we`re here to break things.
They`re not just playing politics. They are playing with people`s lives.
Joining me now is Nicole Lamoureux, executive director of the National
Association of Free and Charitable Clinics. MSNBC has partnered with the
NAFC for a one day free clinic in New Orleans this Wednesday, July 3rd.
Nicole, my first question for you is for these folks, let`s say the 700,000
Pennsylvanians who are making between the federal poverty line for a family
of four, which around $25,000, and 133 percent of that which is what the
Medicaid expansion would apply to, those are folks making around $32,000 a
year, family of four.
NICOLE LAMOUREUX, NAFC: Right.
HAYES: What -- what does it mean to them that they are not going to be
eligible for Medicaid?
LAMOUREUX: Well, basically, what it means is they`re not going to get
access to the much needed health care that they so desperately need. This
is basic things like a physical, testing for diabetes. Things we take for
You know, one thing that we find all across the country is those people who
are healthy take their health for granted. Those people that are going to
be excluded from Medicaid expansion need this help and they`re being
ignored because people are playing politics with people and that`s
HAYES: And this is precisely, I mean, I think we should note here this is
precisely the kind of strata that is most likely in terms of income to be
Because more people are covered by Medicaid as it currently exists. People
who are making a fair amount of money and have jobs that give them benefits
are covered. It`s precisely these people who the law was intended to help
that are going to be pushed out of the help they were supposed to get.
LAMOUREUX: Exactly. You know, one of the things we see across the country
is that 83 percent of the people who come to free and charitable clinics
come from a working household.
So, let`s throw out that rhetoric that they`re lazy. These are people who
are supposed to be getting this care and being ignored and pushed aside.
HAYES: My question for you is when you see folks coming into these
clinics, the people that use your services, who are in a situation the way
they`re getting health care, is going to a free clinic such as yours, is
there an awareness of this law that`s coming, this law that is designed and
could, if it`s implemented properly, could do a lot for their lives? Is
there awareness of it or is there a disconnect between precisely the people
this law should be helping and the law, itself?
LAMOUREUX: There`s a complete disconnect. I think that people understand
it in theory only. That`s why these clinics are so very important. So we
can educate them on what is going to be happening in the next couple of
Really, people get confused. That`s what the Republicans are doing right
now. They`re just confusing the people who need this health care the most.
And that`s why these clinics are so very important. Not only do we get
them health care, but we educate them as well.
HAYES: So, explain to me how that confusion plays out. What are the
stakes of someone being confused about this law if they`re someone who`s
making $28,000 and doesn`t have health insurance?
LAMOUREUX: Well, quite frankly what happens is that many of the people
that we`re going to see in New Orleans haven`t been to the doctor in over
five years. Think about that for a second. That means they`re foregoing
the testing that they need.
We have people who are going it to have a heart attack right on our floor
because they couldn`t afford health care and didn`t know they could in the
future under the Affordable Care Act. That`s absolutely ridiculous. We`re
saying to them, you do not matter by these Republican governors saying
they`re not going to expand Medicaid.
Every person in this country matters. Health care should be a right. It
should not be a privilege.
HAYES: When Obamacare is up and running -- I mean, I`m asking you as
someone who delivers health care to folks that need it every day. Are you
-- my hope is that you are put out of business. I wonder whether you think
you will be.
LAMOUREUX: You know, I have to tell you, across the country, the 1,200
free and charitable clinics would love to go out of business.
Unfortunately, we know we`re not going to go out of business. There`s
still going to be 29 million that are going to be without access to health
care, according to Congressional Budget Office. And then in these states
that are not expanding their Medicare programs. We`re still going to be
Since the 1960s, we`ve been standing in the gap of providing health care to
those who don`t have it. We`re still going to be here. But some day, we
hope that we will be able go out of business.
HAYES: Nicole Lamoureux, I hope that, too.
LAMOUREUX: Thank you.
HAYES: From the National Association of Free and Charitable Clinics, thank
And again, MSNBC is sponsoring the one day free clinic in New Orleans this
Wednesday. Go to NAFC.org to donate, volunteer or make an appointment if
you need to see a doctor. These clinics are only made possible by our
viewers, so we thank you in advance.
There was a surveillance program under George W. Bush that was so creepy
that once people found out about it, it was officially discontinued. And
by officially discontinued, I mean officially moved to a secret budget and
I`ll explain, next.
HAYES: This week, not only is Barack Obama and his family in Africa, so,
too, is George W. Bush along with his wife, Laura. The couple were
renovating a health clinic in Zambia, when they decided to gift us all with
some rare post-retirement face time.
President Bush took the opportunity to weigh in on the massive domestic
surveillance scheme known as PRISM that began under his watch and remained
secret until last month when information about the program leaked by Edward
Snowden was published by "The Guardian" and the "Washington Post.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: I put the program in place to protect
the country, and one of the certainties is civil liberties were guaranteed.
So I`m pretty comfortable with it. I did what I did. I know the spirit in
which I did it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: PRISM program, in which the NSA is able to collect and search
Americans` internet data did, indeed, begin during the Bush administration.
The program`s ancestry is both fascinating and infuriating. The roots of
PRISM stretch all the way back to a program called Total Information
Now, if that name rings a bell, it should, because when it was proposed in
the wake of 9/11, it got a huge amount of press. Total Information
Awareness was the brain child of John Poindexter, the Reagan administration
official who got his conviction in the Iran/Contra scandal overturned on
At the time, TIA was designed to be a sweeping, new, and electronic data
mining program, access all sorts of digital information from just about
anywhere. The idea was that a potential terrorist would leave a digital
trail. But in order to find that trail, you had to collect all of the
digital information there was, from anywhere and everywhere that you could
And the program had this creepy Illuminati logo of a pyramid with this all-
seeing eye looking down on earth. I mean, look at this thing. If you were
to ask Alex Jones to design a logo to make every single neuron in his
conspiratorial brain fire, this would be it. It`s almost as if the
government was trying to control conspiracy theorists.
Total information awareness was creepy enough that it didn`t just set off
Alex Jones of the world. There`s a huge backlash against the idea of just
collecting everyone`s data from left, right and center. It sounded to a
lot of folks like the kind of data mining that treats everyone in America
as a potential terrorist suspect.
So Congress stepped in and used the 2004 defense appropriations bill to
defund total information awareness. But that was not the end of the story.
Because allowing a program that`s being rejected by the American citizenry
to die off is not the only option you happen to be working on surveillance.
Option number two is just doing it anyway but secretly. Listen to
journalist Shane Harris, one of the best source reporters in world on the
NSA describe what happened in the wake of the backlash after total
information awareness was defunded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANE HARRIS: TIA would be as they say, defunded from the defense budget,
but all the money for it would be moved over to the classified side of the
budget, the black budget as it`s often called. And it was disbanded in
name and all the various components of the research program were separated,
were given new cover names, and almost all of them were then shifted over
to the management and control of the national security agency, which
unbeknownst to everyone in America, most people in America at the time, had
been running its own total information awareness program.
So TIA is shut down publicly and privacy advocates really declared a great
victory for this. Unbeknownst to them, the work just continued in secret
at the NSA and became part of this larger vast surveillance apparatus we`re
learning about now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Or in other words, the beginning of what would essentially become
prism, the formerly secret NSA data mining program we`re all just now
learning about. Now in the uproar over prism and some of the other NSA
revelations, there`s been a tendency I think to focus on privacy concerns.
Is the government reading my Facebook messages? But I think that`s a
mistake because quite frankly, well, in that sense, no one really has
privacy anymore to begin with. Most of us have willingly handed over all
of our information to Google or whatever other software company has us sign
in with every little bit of information about ourselves.
Now, the real problem, the real problem for all of us isn`t the privacy
concern, it`s the secrecy. The problem is that we didn`t know about this
we didn`t sign off on it because secrecy acts in this very insidious way to
insulate the government from the most basic kind of democratic
When Barack Obama proposed the affordable care act, there were lots of
people that freaked out about it. They talked about death panels and being
on the slippery slope to socialized medicine. Because people didn`t like
it, the president didn`t have the option to just take the affordable care
act and move it into the black budget.
He wasn`t able to say, well, people don`t like my idea so we`re going to
set up the insurance exchanges in secret with secret money. Because that`s
not the way democracies work. Nothing in the domestic sphere operates
under those principles. You have to have the argument with people.
Convince them that you`re right or face the consequences.
Those are the basic ground rules for self-governance. And it is incredibly
toxic to any democracy to have this other channel you can switch to
whenever you might lose the argument. I`m not concerned by what the NSA is
doing because I think they might read my Facebook messages.
I`m concerned because the NSA is spending billions of dollars doing all
sorts of stuff that I as a United States citizen never really got to sign
off on. Democracies can and must be able to have secrets, and in fact, all
But what decent, functioning democracies worthy of the name cannot have are
huge, multibillion dollar programs and bureaucracies and laws and legal
frameworks and authorizations that are all invisible to their citizens.
Justice may be blind. Citizens cannot be.
We`ll be right back with Click 3.
HAYES: Today was a huge day in the George Zimmerman trial. We got as
close as we may come to hearing Zimmerman testify in the form of multiple
recorded interviews he did with Sanford police. Those tapes are coming up.
But first I want to share the three awesomest things on the internet today
beginning with a pretty serious payday for a former public servant. Time
now to check in with Four Star General David Petraeus, following an
extramarital affair with his biographer and time away from the spotlight,
Petraeus agreed to take a gig as visiting professor of public policy at the
city University of New York, a public college.
Adjunct professors typically earn less than $3,000 per course. As Gawker
found out, David Petraeus will be making slightly more than that, $200,000
for one course. He`ll work about three hours a week with the help of a
group of graduate students to take care of course research, administration
That works out to approximately $2,250 per hour, terrific news for David
Petraeus, slightly less terrific news for the number crunchers. As a
spokesperson tells Gawker, the university is in the process of fundraising
for this position.
The second awesomest thing on the internet today, a chance for adventurers
to make their mark, Google street view is capturing the world one
intersection at a time. What about the far flung hard to reach places?
Now travelers heading out to remote locations can sign up to borrow one of
Google`s trekker devices, a backpack equipped with a camera to capture a
360 degree view of the surroundings. Those will help the rest of us get an
up close look at a volcano, cave or rainforest. On the downside, they will
look only slightly cooler than Al Franken and his one-man satellite uplink.
The third awesomest thing on the internet today, a reminder no matter how
great your weekend was, no more amazing as Jennifer Lopez was. The singer
took their act on the road performing all over big hits. There were backup
dancers and costume changers on the stage. Lopez traveled all the way to
the country of Turkmenistan to sing happy birthday to its President
Gurbanguly. The guy likes Jennifer Lopez and presides over the most
oppressive government in the world.
J-lo`s publicist says the event was hosted by a firm called the China
National Petroleum Corp and was vetted by Lopez`s representatives. Had
there been knowledge of human rights issues of any kind, Jennifer would not
have attended if only there`s some device you can type in a guy`s name and
find out all the terrible things he`s responsible for.
However, all is not lost. As one Twitter user put it, on the bright side,
Gigli`s no longer the worst thing she`s done. Beyonce did sing at a new
year`s eve bash entertaining the family of Moammar Gadhafi and Elton John
performed at fourth wedding of Rush Limbaugh.
You can find all the links for tonight`s Click 3 on our web site,
allinwithchris.com. We`ll be right back.
HAYES: Day six of testimony in the George Zimmerman trial brought us a
truly riveting narrative from the mouth of George Zimmerman, himself, in
the form of multiple recorded interviews of the defendant by Sanford
police. Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of
Trayvon Martin. He has pleaded not guilty claiming self-defense.
But this day may have been crystallized with Officer Doris Singleton read a
statement written by Zimmerman in which Zimmerman refers to Trayvon Martin
as the suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher
was asking me for exact location, the suspect emerged from darkness and
circled my vehicle.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And that statement Zimmerman repeatedly uses the word "suspect" to
refer to Trayvon Martin and Prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda even asked
Officer Singleton about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, LEAD PROSECUTOR: He uses the word "suspect" to refer
to Trayvon Martin. Have you uttered those words or have you informed him
in any way that`s the word he`s supposed to use to refer to Trayvon Martin?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Whatever happened, whatever ensued between those two men, that man
and that boy, whatever the legal determination of this jury is whether
Zimmerman`s actions meet the legal environment for second-degree murder.
In George Zimmerman`s eyes, the person walking around was a suspect. In a
recording of a lengthy interview between Zimmerman and Officer Singleton
was played at trial today. Here`s part of it
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve never seen this guy before?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, DEFENDANT: I don`t recall. It`s always dark. They
always come around night time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: A videotape of lead investigator Chris Serino`s interview with
George Zimmerman the day after the killing of Trayvon Martin, the scene of
the death was also played for jurors today. Here`s part of it in which
Zimmerman explains the moments of the altercation with Trayvon Martin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: My jacket moved up. I had my firearm on my right side hip. My
jacket moved up and he saw it. I feel like he saw it. He looked at it.
He said, you`re going to die tonight -- and he reached for it, but he
reached, like, I felt his arm going down my side, and I grabbed it and I
just grabbed my firearm and I shot him, one time.
Yes, sir, he was on top of me like this. I shot him. And I didn`t think I
hit him because he sat up and he said, you got me, you got it. You got me.
Something like that. So I thought he was just saying, I know you have a
gun now, I heard it. I`m giving up. So I don`t know if I pushed him off
me or he fell off me either way, I got on top of him and I pushed his arms
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now is Michael Eric Dyson, MSNBC political analyst and
professor of sociology at Georgetown University, Karen Desoto, a criminal
defense attorney, and Danielle Cadet, editor for "Huffington Post Black
Voices." It`s great to have you here.
It was really riveting watching George Zimmerman in these various
incarnations of him in various states of taped, being interviewed,
debriefed by a police officer, by Serino, doing this walk and talk where
he`s sort of describing it. One question just strategically, in terms of a
trial law question.
Karen, if you`re the prosecution, it basically amounted weirdly to watching
George Zimmerman testify about the events that night. Felt like this
bizarre one-sided situation in which there`s a thing that happened between
two men, one of whom is dead, the other one shot him, and he is one there
in court describing what happened. Why would the prosecution of all people
be playing all that tape?
KAREN DESOTO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because it`s actually very
uncommon to have statements and video. Normally that doesn`t happen in a
criminal case. You don`t get that information, but there are always
inconsistencies between videotape and multiple statements. That`s one
thing you want to show, what he said on one day is different from what he
said on the next. That`s definitely why the prosecutor was bringing that
HAYES: They were pointing out, obviously the prosecution was pointing out
ways in which the story was changing. Every time that he talks about
Trayvon Martin -- I just saw "White House Down" this weekend. It was
awesome, by the way, like, really incredible. Every word out of this
character, Trayvon Martin, sounds like some action movie villain, like
tonight`s the night you`re going to die and you got me. There`s another
point where he pops out of the darkness and says, you got a problem, you
got a problem now, all these zingy movie-esque statements.
DANIELLE CADET, "HUFFINGTON POST BLACK VOICES": If you`re talking about a
17-year-old boy from Miami, this doesn`t sound -- he doesn`t sound like he
would talk like this. Nobody really sounds like --
HAYES: That`s the point.
CADET: After getting shot, saying, you got me. You`ve watched one too
many superhero movies or one too many thug movies. Just when he said that,
that struck me as extremely odd because what individual gets slot and all
of a sudden says, you got me? I don`t think that would be the first thing
that would come out of anybody`s mouth.
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely. The point is,
first of all, according to his friend, Rachel, he was creepy cracker.
DYSON: Now he switches to vertigo, you got me. He switches genre. We`re
the figments of imagination of people with dark intent. George Zimmerman
proves a set of beliefs we`ve been arguing about for the last 10, 15 year,
about stereotyping, profiling, becomes material.
HAYES: That`s precisely what`s before the jury. We should be clear here.
The judge ruled pre-trial that specifically invoking the term racial
profiling is out of bounds. You can use profiling but not racial
profiling. The sub text, of course, after all of this, why is George
Zimmerman so obsessed with this kid and tracking him?
The reason that`s materially relevant to getting a conviction is right,
Karen, because of what the burden of proof is, the prosecution, for this
very high charge of second-degree murder.
DESOTA: Exactly. I think that that`s what a lot of people don`t
understand is that the degree that you have here. The prosecutor decided
to go with the second-degree murder. Not manslaughter so when you`re
talking about the standard, which an unlawful killing of a human being
perpetrated by any act, imminently dangerous, and here`s the kicker,
evidence of a depraved mind.
Depraved mind beyond a reasonable doubt is extremely high standard.
Depraved means perverted intent, evil, corrupt. That`s a very high
standard. I don`t think people really understand that`s the instruction the
jurors are going to get.
DYSON: Yes, and it`s difficult, I mean, I have sympathy for that person
who made that decision. On the one hand, if he doesn`t go, second-degree
murder, black people go, really? I mean, my life is worth, like,
manslaughter? So I feel sympathy for that then to overrule, the ability to
talk about racial profiling as a judicial component of this case,
underscores, again, why it makes a difference to have people as actors and
as producers. As judges and as --
HAYES: Also I think the irony here is whatever the eventual outcome of
this, but if the outcome -- I`m not saying it will, but were the outcome to
end in an acquittal, immediately people would be like they overcharged.
Overcharged was done in the context of this horrible thing that happened.
CADET: If they had gone any lower than a second-degree manslaughter
charge, I mean --
HAYES: Second-degree murder you`re saying.
CADET: I`m sorry, second-degree murder charge. People would have been
HAYES: If it were manslaughter, you would not have to -- if it were
DESOTO: It would be more of a negligent -- they would still use the self-
defense. It would be a negligent standard which is a lot lower and easier
for a prosecutor to argue. Same thing in Casey Anthony, they charged for
first-degree murder when they couldn`t prove intent or why the child died.
These are the things that you have to keep in mind.
HAYES: Here`s the other thing about watching the video today particularly
the walkthrough. The thing that struck me was, man, that dude looks like
he`s pretty messed up. Like, he kind of got beat up. I remember when the
photos first came out there were scratches on the back of the head.
When you see his nose in this, it`s like, OK, he took something in the
face. And so then the question be, OK, what if, and I want to, like, open
this hypothetical and answer when we come back. What if everything
Zimmerman said about how it all went down is true?
It`s still -- what I want to say from the standpoint of justice, not
necessarily the law is, it`s still not OK that this kid is dead. Like,
that is why I find myself getting worked up about it as I`m following the
trial. I want to discuss that right after we take this break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIMMERMAN: He said, you got a problem now, then he was here and he punched
me in the face. I stumbled and I fell down. He pushed me down. Somehow
he got on top of me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the grass or on the cement?
ZIMMERMAN: It was more over toward here. I think I was trying to push him
away from me. That`s when I started screaming for help. I started
screaming, help, help, as loud as I could. And that is when he grabbed --
I tried to sit up. That`s when he grabbed me by the head and tried to slam
my head down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That`s George Zimmerman speaking to local police right after, a day
or two after, Trayvon Martin was shot. Joining me is Michael Eric Dyson,
MSNBC political analyst, and professor of sociology at Georgetown
University, Karen Desoto, criminal defense attorney, and Danielle Cadet,
editor for "Huffington Post Black Voices."
We`re talking about day six in the George Zimmerman trial, that account
George Zimmerman gives in that taped interview differs from other testimony
we`ve heard and what other eye witnesses may have heard. Maybe he jumped -
- but it`s like you followed him, you followed him. You precipitated this
If it ends up being the case you precipitated him and tracked him for no
reason other than he was a suspect in your mind, then it went down the way
you said, and this dude beat the crap out of you because you were following
him, then you get to shoot him and what?
DYSON: You`re making the point cause this is the frailty of the -- or I
think the inherent injustice of the stand your ground law. Who can stand
their ground? You jump on me, you ambush me, you have a set of stereotypes
in your mind and I cream you. I`m getting the best of you. You`re going
to beat me?
HAYES: The standard here isn`t even stand your ground. This is just self-
DESOTO: I mean, obviously this was a tragic accident, but I think that
Trayvon Martin`s parents has a great case against the state of Florida
because the concealed weapon is the problem here. No states allow people
to, you know, have concealed weapons on their person.
HAYES: Lots of states.
DESOTO: Texas, well, and we can talk about Texas because there`s a lot of
cases out there. But having somebody, allowing somebody to have a
concealed weapon is like having a toddler with a machete.
HAYES: When you watch all this, the other thing that kept coming up to me
is I just wish we could go back in time and take the fun out of this
equation more than anything. More than any single magic wand that I could
wave. It would be to just --
CADET: That`s the reason why he felt comfortable pursuing him. At the end
of the day, when the cop says why are you out of your car? If you think
about it, with all the other witnesses, everybody has said, I didn`t want
to get involved.
HAYES: Everyone`s staying inside.
CADET: I didn`t want to -- I didn`t even want to call the cops. I didn`t
want to have anything to do with this. For some reason, George Zimmerman
is the only person out of everybody in this community who felt comfortable
pursuing this suspicious individual.
DESOTO: Because he had a gun on him.
DYSON: And here`s the point, you can be in the wrong, you can pursue
somebody. The cops told him, don`t do it. The 911, don`t do it. He goes
and does it anyway. Now I get, I as the victim of George Zimmerman, Trayvon
Martin gets killed because he`s defending himself against a guy who has a
jungle of stereotypes and this hero belief that he is the supercop and he`s
going to beat this person down. It`s the perfect storm of all that`s bad.
DESOTO: The problem, it wasn`t illegal for him to follow somebody, wasn`t
illegal for him to have a concealed weapon. It wasn`t legal for him even
to talk to him.
DYSON: You`re saying illegal.
DESOTO: Illegal. Therein lies the problem.
HAYES: What would clear the bar? I mean, I can`t ask you to read the mind
of the jury. If you`re talking about what this depraved mind would be. To
me, that`s the thing we watched throughout this week. Increasingly to me
that emerges as this really difficult standard, first of all. And second
of all, this question of, it ends up being fundamentally a character
assessment of who this person is in that moment.
HAYES: More than it ends up being, the witnesses saying who`s on top of
DYSON: If we switch the color of those two guys this is a completely
HAYES: MSNBC analyst Michael Eric Dyson, Criminal Defense Attorney Karen
Desoto and Danielle Cadet from the "Huffington Post." Thank you all. That
is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now.
Good evening, Rachel.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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