All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, July 8th, 2013
Read the transcript from the Monday show
ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
July 8, 2013
Guests: Mary Schiavo, Mark Gerchick, Evan Smith, Karen Desoto, Tim Wise
CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Good evening, from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. And I
hope you had a great holiday weekend.
We are back. And tonight on ALL IN:
The longest serving governor of Texas is calling it quits. But Rick
Perry`s legacy is on full display in the Lone Star State as Republicans are
in the middle right at this very moment of ramming through another
disingenuous assault on women`s rights.
Also tonight, three days after Trayvon Martin`s and George Zimmerman`s
mothers both identified the same screaming voice on a 911 tape as belonging
to their respective sons, Zimmerman defense took a different approach
today. I`ll tell you why Zimmerman`s own team is making sure you know
Zimmerman was lousy in the gym.
Plus, what the Nazis learned from the California prison system and why it`s
all horrifyingly relevant today.
But we begin tonight in San Francisco, where investigators are trying to
determine what exactly happened onboard Asiana Flight 214 that caused it to
crash land into San Francisco`s International Airport over the weekend,
with 307 people onboard.
Tonight, we know there are two confirmed fatalities in the crash, 16-year-
old Wang Linjia and 16-year-old Ye Mengyuan, both were on their way to
United States to attend a church summer camp.
A hundred eighty people were injured yesterday. In a striking scene,
Asiana`s president and CEO Yoon Young-Do flanked by several of the
company`s board members bowed in apology to the passengers and their
What we know today is that Flight 214 was cleared for a visual landing as
it headed into San Francisco airport from South Korea. But the plane was
approaching at far below normal landing speeds.
After trying to abort the landing at the last moment, the Boeing 777
apparently crashed into the ground losing its tail in the process. Among
the survivors was Wen Xiang (ph) who spoke to FOX`s KTTV. She was
traveling to the United States for vacation with her 4-year-old son, who
after crawling through a hole in the side of the plane and suffering from
minor injuries, said he wanted to continue his trip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WEN XIANG (ph), SURVIVOR: He always said, "I don`t want to stay at the
hospital. I want to go to the America hotel. I like hotel. I need a
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Earlier today, NTSB Chairwoman Deborah Hersman said the
investigation into what exactly happened on Asiana`s Flight 214 is just
Joining me now is NBC News correspondent Tom Costello. Tom covers
aviation, has been reporting on this story since the crash.
And, Tom, what do we know about the possible array of possible causes at
this moment in the crash?
TOM COSTELLO, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, let me set the scene for you
here. Behind me is the remains of Flight 214, sitting out there on runway
28-left. And you can see that -- well, in a minute you`re going to see
planes have been coming and going right by it all day.
What we know now is that there were three captains onboard that plane, as
well as a first officer. And one of those three captains was training to -
- training may not be the exact precise language -- but was in his final
hours of learning how to fly the 777.
Now, he had flown many other aircraft for some time including the 747. He
had 10,000 hours of experience, but only 43 on the 777 and he was on his
first approach attempt ever to San Francisco with a captain who was
checking him out.
Now, in addition to that, there was another captain onboard and there was a
first officer onboard. That`s normal. You normally would have four pilots
onboard a trans-pacific flight like that because you want to spell each
other when somebody gets tired.
But the question that everybody is asking here is how is it possible with
that kind of experience in the cockpit, two captains, two veterans with
10,000 hours each under their belts, how could you apparently not pay
attention to the air speed? Because the NTSB is saying that the air speed
on this aircraft really fell dangerously low.
Generally, you want to hit the end of that runway, you want to come in just
like this United Airlines flight is coming in right now. You want to come
in at about 137 knots and notice that he is touching down almost where the
remains of flight 214 are right now.
They were coming in at 103 knots. Not 137 knots -- 103 was their lowest
speed just seconds before they hit the end of the pier here, when they hit
the sea barrier wall.
So, the question investigators are asking is, how could that happen?
Generally, the co-pilot is supposed to be watching the air speed and the
sink rate, the descent rate. The pilot is supposed to be watching the
actual -- actually doing the flying.
So, was it one captain thinking the other one was watching the air speed
and the other thinking the other one had it -- there`s some question about
that. They`re interviewing the crew in Korean and English. And they`re
trying to get some answers to that.
There`s another tragic twist to this whole story, and that is that as
firefighters responded with a full emergency response on Saturday, the fire
department says it now believes one of its responding rigs accidentally hit
one of those two girls that was out on the runway, one of the two teenagers
Did that cause her death? They don`t know. The coroner is investigating
But as you can expect, that is heartbreaking and very distressing to the
fire department, which engaged in a heroic rescue effort and got all of
those people off of that plane safely.
Chris, back to you.
HAYES: NBC`s Tom Costello, thank you very much for that.
When I first started seeing information about Asiana`s Flight 214 on
Twitter and started reading eyewitness reports, saw pictures of a smoking
plane, reports that the tail of the plane snapped off, I got the horrible,
plummeting feeling you get when first encountering breaking news, when we
were looking at a situation where hundreds of people may be dead.
But then I saw these incredible pictures coming in of the survivors of the
crash walking away, walking away from a Boeing 777 whose tail had broken
off. More than 300 people were onboard and all but two survived. Seeing
those people reminded me of the miracle, the truly global civilizational
miracle that is the safety of commercial air traveling.
I mean, not that long ago, airline travel was much more dangerous. Before
this weekend, there had not been a fatal commercial jet line crash in the
United States since February 2009. It was less than 20 years ago, we
watched two crashes in the United States in just one year, 1996, and 340
people were killed.
Since then, the commercial airline industry, particularly in the United
States, has undergone a safety revolution. On every given day in this
country, nearly 50,000 flights pass through our national airspace, 50,000.
So very few of them suffer any type of incident, it seems like a miracle.
Now, to be clear, air travel does have risks, particularly in smaller
noncommercial planes. Just yesterday, small air taxi in Alaska crashed,
killing 10 people. From 2010 to 2012, 61 people died in air taxi
accidents. During that same time period, there were zero deaths from
commercial air accidents in the United States.
Commercial air travel in the United States has quickly become the safest
mode of transportation, safer than riding your bike or getting in your car.
In fact, over the weekend, a runaway oil tanker exploded in a Quebec town,
killing at least 13 people and destroying about 30 buildings.
Approximately 40 people in that town are still, as of this hour, missing.
For that horrific, stomach-churning accident, and other transportation
accidents, simply don`t bring out the same response of us on cable news or
in society as a whole because there is something unique about plane
crashes. There just is. Something about them that stokes our deepest
fear, something that provoked us as a society to marshal the manpower and
resources to make sure that getting on a commercial flight is the safest
way to travel.
Now, just imagine what we can do to fight so many of the other dangers we
face with that same kind of resolve.
Joining me now is Mary Schiavo, former Department of Transportation
inspector general under Presidents George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton., an
attorney specializing in litigation.
And Mark Gerchick, former chief counsel for the Federal Aviation
Administration, aviation consultant and author of the book "Full Upright
and Locked Position: Not So Comfortable Truths About Air Travel Today."
Mark, I want to begin with you.
The most incredible fact here is the tail of this plane appeared to snap
off and only two fatalities. What does it say about the engineering, the
simple engineering, the structural integrity of this massive vehicle that
that could be the case?
MARK GERCHICK, FORMER CHIEF COUNSEL, FAA: Absolutely. The engineering of
these aircraft is quite amazing. The 777, itself, has been proven to be
one of the very safest aircraft around. You know, you have to think about
some of the interior of the airplanes, too -- the flammability of the
materials in the seats. That has been worked on. The seats, themselves,
are able to withstand 16 Gs of force when you hit an impact with these
Many, many technological improvements have been made that have made these
airplanes very, very strong and very passenger protective.
HAYES: Mary, the -- from what we`re learning, again, the NTSB is very
careful to caution, it`s very early in this investigation, but it looks
like it`s possible, at least, the first plausible hypothesis some kind of
pilot error here. And people are pointing the fact that this pilot had
less than 60 hours of training on a 777.
How does training work? How have we -- what systems have come up with to
produce pilots that don`t do this regularly when they have to fly new
planes into airports they`ve never flown into before and fly new routes?
MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER DEPT. OF TRANSPORTATION INSPECTOR GENERAL: Well,
first and foremost, there are differences between carriers. Many United
States-based carriers actually require a minimum of 100 hours to be making
SCHIAVO: So, air carriers vary. But also, we do a lot of training on
simulators and we do a lot of our flying in auto pilot. And the NTSB has
been critical in many recent accidents that we have become so independent
on a new, wonderful, very life-saving technology, that we don`t know the
old-fashioned stick and rudder technology of flying. And they were cleared
for visual approach 17 miles from the end of the runway.
So, they had 17 miles to set this up and fly it the old-fashioned way. And
I think the NTSB will say, you know, with all this wonderful lifesaving
technology, and indeed auto pilot probably have saved this flight, but it
wasn`t available because the instrument landing system was out, that we
don`t do stick and rudder flying.
HAYES: So, just explain so I understand it. Seventeen miles out, they`re
clear for visual landing. What a visual landing means is I`m going to take
myself off the auto pilot, the computer-activated guidance that has been
operating the flight until now and I`m going to fly the plane like I drive
my car. I`m going to manually say how fast it goes and how low it goes as
SCHIAVO: Precisely. And at that point, then you lose some of the other
data that comes automatically. There`s an automatic glide slope that tells
you exactly what altitude and how you`re supposed to be descending in your
proper sink rate and all that was gone. They headed over this body of
Now, a 17 mile straight-in final is a long way, but they had to cross a
body of water. You have a greater sink rate over a body of water.
HAYES: You go down faster.
SCHIAVO: Yes, you do down faster.
So, it`s possible the flight got away. Of course, it`s still possible they
had problems with the altimeter and the airspeed indicator.
HAYES: Right. It`s possible there are mechanical problems here as well.
Mark, my question to you is what -- how do we understand the safety
revolution that has happened in commercial air? I mean, it just seems to
me when you`re thinking about this as a problem to solve, you`ve got so
many moving parts. I don`t mean the moving parts of jet airlines going at
hundreds of miles an hour. I mean, you have different governments, right?
I mean, a plane has to go in South Africa and in Germany and in Bhutan.
HAYES: And all sorts of different places.
You`ve got different governance regimes, you`ve got different regulatory
regimes, you have different air carriers, you have different languages.
How have we arrived at this point we`re able to pull this off so routinely
with such little, such a small error rate?
GERCHICK: Well, I think it`s thanks to, in part, the U.S. leadership on
this issue around air safety. Many countries, and there are others who
have been leading, but many countries look to the United States as the
primary and key group involved with air travel.
Now, of course, they are the ones who are certifying these aircraft as are
the Europeans and others, but these aircraft need to be certified by
regulatory authorities after vast amounts of testing and checking over and
So we also have things like a common language. English is now the common
international language of aviation. Whether you`re in Korea or Japan or in
Bhutan, you need to speak English to air traffic controllers.
HAYES: Is this -- are there aspects of the safety revolution that we don`t
appreciate or have gone sort of out of the radar?
SCHIAVO: Yes. There are some things, and they`re mechanical things that
are very important, collision avoidance systems. Every day in America
collision avoidance systems save flights to keep planes from colliding.
That is a new development within the last 15 years.
HAYES: I got to say, you go on flight tracker, we were looking at the Evo
Morales plan on Bolivia and we pulled up Flight Tracker. And you look at
it, you just think yourself, now, obviously, this is a weird representation
because you have all these icons on the screen, but you think yourself,
man, there are a lot of planes in a very small amount of area.
SCHIAVO: Collision avoidance saved planes just like 10 days ago in New
And then the other thing is advanced ground proximity warning. Fifteen
years ago, we would have perfectly good planes in night, or bad weather,
fly into the ground, into mountains, and not know it. CFIT it was called.
Now, this system gives you enough warning that you can get the plane back
up. You can apply power and get out of the system and get out of the
HAYES: You know, people -- I was giving a talk this weekend and talking
about lots of things that have gone wrong in the past decade. People
sometimes say you`re so dire, you`re so pessimistic, you know?
I just look at air safety as this kind of amazing model for us about that
we just all decided as a society this is unacceptable. I think about the
people that died in the West, Texas, fertilizer plant. I think about the
folks up in this town in Quebec who have watched this horrific accident,
and just imagine us marshalling those same resources to get to the bottom
Mary Schiavo former Department of Transportation inspector general, Mark
Gerchick, former chief counsel for the FAA -- thank you both so much.
HAYES: Coming up, last time Texas Governor Rick Perry made a big speech,
he took a tasteless swipe at State Senator Wendy Davis. Well, today, he
was before the cameras again and it was what he did not say this time that
I found so revealing. I`m going to clue you in, next.
HAYES: Late breaking news out of Wisconsin to report right now, where a
federal judge has just in the last hour granted a temporary restraining
order blocking a new law set to take effect today. That was likely to
force half of the state`s abortion clinics to close their doors.
Planned Parenthood, which is suing to stop the law signed by Scott Walker,
says now that the law is being temporarily blocked, they will be able to
continue to provide abortion services while the lawsuit proceeds.
In addition to target regulations designed to close down clinics, the new
law would also force women seeking an abortion to undergo an ultrasound.
The law was passed through the legislature in the middle of June, but just
signed into law by Republican Governor Scott Walker on Friday, as in the
day after the Fourth of July in a private ceremony. The court is set to
revisit this issue again next week.
Meanwhile, similar bill is still working its way through the legislature in
Texas, and boy does it have Texans riled up. We`ll take you to the Texas
capitol where the battle over abortion rights is happening live right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: I remain excited about the future, and the
challenges ahead, but the time has come to pass on the mantle of
leadership. Today, I`m announcing I will not seek re-election as governor
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That, of course, Rick Perry, the butt of a thousand "I forgot the
third one" jokes, and the man who also happens to be the longest-serving
governor in the long history of Texas.
After announcing today that he will not seek another term as governor, he
hinted at exciting future challenges that politics watchers are roughly
translating to mean running for president in 2016.
Given that Perry built up to announcing that he`s not running for governor
again with a pre-produced video plus almost 10 minutes of live speechifying
about his awesome record of creating jobs, and freedom, and more jobs.
Well, given all that, presidential speculation seems like a pretty safe
bet, but though it is major big picture political news, there is something
far more interesting than what Rick Perry said today.
And that is what Rick Perry barely mentioned today. He talked in great
detail about his record on jobs and the economy, but he spent no time
talking in specifics about his antiabortion record, about the pitched
political battle that is currently raging at the capitol in Austin right
He identified himself as generically pro-life and made one oblique
reference to the special legislative session he authored -- ordered --
without mentioning the prime topic of that special session, the draconian
antiabortion bill that was successfully and famously filibustered by
Democratic State Senator Wendy Davis during the last special session.
Rick Perry`s avoidance of the issue seems familiarly meaningful when you
see how unavoidable it is on the ground in Texas at this very moment.
People from both sides of the abortion divide started lining up to testify
on this bill before dawn today, in the middle of the night. Testimony
started in the state senate around noon Eastern today.
That testimony is still going on. Senate hearing is now entering its ninth
hour. It is a fight that is consuming the state capitol.
Here`s just one example of what Texas senators heard today from the folks
who lined up overnight to testify.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have never in my life heard so many women have to
say, "I was raped, but I was lucky, I didn`t get pregnant." I hope to
never hear this phrase again, but today, in solidarity, I would like to say
I was raped, but I was lucky I didn`t get pregnant. I do not want an
abortion ever. I do, however, have a constitutional right to an abortion,
and I want that right protected.
And when legislators want to limit my access to this constitutional right,
I want to know why, and I expect them to be willing and able to answer
questions about why they think they know more about ensuring the health and
safety of Texas women than Texas women and their doctors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Tracking public opinion on abortion is treacherous business. It`s
one of the most difficult issues to get reliable polling on. So much
changes depending on how you ask the question.
But here`s a tip off. Watch the way antiabortion Republicans are right now
fighting this battle and you won`t need polling, because the way they`re
approaching this issue shows even they don`t believe they`re on the side of
popular American opinion.
I mean, given the chance today to use a high-profile much anticipated
nationally watched speech to make the case for the draconian antiabortion
bill he is pushing through in Texas, Rick Perry did not say the word
abortion. That is the anti-abortion Republican M.O. right now. It`s the
Don`t talk about abortion. Don`t say it`s your priority. Just do it.
Like when Ohio Republicans snuck a laundry list into the state`s budget
which Republican Governor John Kasich signed into a law on a Sunday night.
Or when Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker signed that bill that was blocked
by a federal judge, the one designed to shut down most of his state`s
abortion clinics, on the Friday after the Fourth of July in a private
Nothing is more telling than the way Republicans are fighting against
abortion rights. Nothing tips the Republican governor`s hand more than the
fact they refuse to be forthright on this issue. The fact they refuse to
talk about what they`re doing. It`s a sure sign they don`t believe the
people they represent are behind it.
Joining me now is Evan Smith, CEO and editor in chief of the "Texas
And, Evan, I was -- I found it really interesting, this speech,
particularly because it was Rick Perry talking about jobs and the economy,
which was supposed to be the Rick Perry platform that was going to catapult
him to the head of the pack in the primary in 2012. It did not go that
And I have gotten the sense from people I know around Rick Perry that he
actually, that`s the stuff he cares about. He does not care that much
about the abortion issue, yet he also made a political calculation not to
talk about this huge battle that everyone in the country has their eyes on.
EVAN SMITH, THE TEXAS TRIBUNE: Right, he gave it a little bit of time.
You`re right. He didn`t really focus on it. He said one sentence worth on
Really, this speech was about Rick Perry`s record going backward and the
thing he`s proudest of and the thing if he runs again for president in
2016, we`re going to hear a lot about -- or 2014 -- 2016, that we`re going
to hear a lot about, pardon me, is the economy, is the economic factor.
The fact that since Rick Perry has been governor, more jobs have been
created in Texas than the other 49 states combined.
Whether or not he`s responsible personally for any of that, he gets to
claim the credit because he`s been the guy in office for these 13 years.
That`s going to be the basis for a campaign. I don`t think, at least in a
general election campaign, you`re going hear an enormous amount about life
because nationally, the issue does not have as much resonance as it does
here in Texas.
HAYES: But in terms of the resonance in Texas, I have been following the
developments closely and I`m fascinated to see what was a mobilization,
largely on one side of this issue -- to try to block this bill in the last
special session has now become a counter-mobilization, a mobilization on
both sides. You have people in color-coded T-shirts going to the capitol,
both sides testifying.
How novel, how anomalous is this in Texas state politics?
SMITH: Well, it`s enormously surprising to have seen one side take the
lead on this. The other side was caught flatfooted. I think as we sit
here tonight, Chris, there`s an antiabortion rally at the capitol. Mike
Huckabee and the Duggars and a bunch of people associated with the pro-life
side are rallying.
The numbers are not as great. At least when I left my office, they were
not as great as the numbers last Monday when the pro-choice people were
rallying. But they`re making up for lost time tonight. And, look, there`s
going to be another rally in favor of abortion rights tomorrow.
I think it`s anomalous in a sense we haven`t seen these kinds of numbers of
people come from all over the state and march on the capitol on any issue
in a very, very long time. In my 20-plus years of watching capitol, I
can`t quite remember this many people mobilized on this kind of issue ever
In that respect, maybe you`re right that it was surprising Perry didn`t
make more hay of it today.
HAYES: Well, this is my read of the Perry thing, was that it`s the
Republican Party in microcosm. He understands -- he`s a pretty politically
savvy guy. He understands his pathway to the nomination ultimately and to
being president if that were to happen is this jobs record. That`s what he
wants to focus on like a laser.
But the Republican Party base demands this tribute be paid because the
people in the base really do care about this issue. They really want to
see the representatives go after it and so it`s precisely a disconnect that
bedevils the Republican Party writ large.
SMITH: Yes, I think that`s true. I mean, you`ve got to think if you`re
Rick Perry that you`re running this time in a field in which you need to
differentiate yourself from quite talented politicians. He ran against a
AA baseball team worth of Republican candidates last time. He wouldn`t
beat Herman Cain.
SMITH: This time he`s running against the 27 Yankees. These were all
people who are Major League players. They`re all very talented. He needs
to differentiate himself some way from them.
He`s going to stake out turf on the very far right end of the spectrum,
including on the choice issue and hope that that carries him over the line.
But in a general election, Chris, in the end, it`s going to be the economy.
It`s going to be the jobs record.
What we thought in 2012 would be his big issue, it`s going to have to be
his big issue in 2016. The kind of antiabortion rights rhetoric we`ve
heard from Perry over time may not play well enough in a general election
to get him elected.
HAYES: Evan Smith from the "Texas Tribune" -- thank you so much.
SMITH: Thank you.
HAYES: Female inmates being sterilized illegally in California -- more on
this incredible story next.
HAYES: More than 80 years ago, Nazi theorists took their concept for the
so-called masteries or at least developed it based on something cultivated
here in our very own country. In fact, get this, in 1924 Adolf Hitler
wrote "I have studied with great interest the laws of several American
states concerning prevention of reproduction by people whose progeny would
in all probability be of no value or injurious to the racial stock."
He was talking about the concept of selective human breeding. One of those
American states Hitler wrote about was California. As a model to one the
Nazi`s own eugenics program because between 1909 and 1963, the golden state
sterilized over 20,000 institutionalized men and women.
For more than half a century, California was the epicenter of the American
forced sterilization movement. The idea here, of course, was to improve
the human race by making sure that less desired traits could be eliminated
from gene pool. At the time, people like Adolf Hitler believed less
desired traits were exhibited by Jews, people of color, prisoners, the
mentally ill and other folks deemed unfit.
Forced sterilization was such a popular idea both at home and abroad that
even United States Supreme Court endorsed it. In 1927, Justice Oliver
Wendell Holmes who is a great hero of mine in many respects, but not in
this one wrote "it is better for all the world if instead of waiting to
execute degenerate offspring for crime or let them starve for their
imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from
continuing their kind. Three generations of imbeciles are enough."
State lawmakers in California finally banned the practice of forced
sterilization in 1979 and a variety of safeguards were put in place to make
sure that people are prized of their rights and no coerced into
sterilization. The practice left such a heinous stain on California that
in 2003 former Governor Gray Davis issued a public apology stating "to the
victims and their families of this past injustice, the people of California
are deeply sorry. It was a sad and regrettable chapter in the state`s
history and is one that must never be repeated again."
Well, in a shocking new piece out yesterday from the Center of
Investigative Reporting, we`ve now learned the California Department of
Corrections and Rehabilitation sterilized nearly 150 female inmates between
2006 to 2010 without require state approvals. Now, it appears some women
agreed to the procedure, though the state approval regulations weren`t
While in other cases, it appears women only gave their consent during labor
which, of course, isn`t really consent since, and I`m only speculating
here, the pain of childbirth does not create the optimal setting for making
an informed setting about one`s future reproductive health.
According to the report, over a 13-year period the state of California paid
close to $150,000 to sterilize these women. One of the doctors responsible
for performing the procedures, a man by the name of James Hemric said the
cost was like a drop in the bucket compared to, quote, "what you save in
welfare paying for these unwanted children as they procreated more."
But here`s the thing. Sterilizing female inmates in California without the
state`s approval is just the tip of the monstrous iceberg that is the
California prison system. Just last week, a three-judge panel doubled down
on their order that California`s Democratic Governor Jerry Brown release
nearly 10,000 inmates.
Conditions were ruled by the Supreme Court to violate the constitutional
ban on cruel and unusual punishment. So far, Governor Brown has refused to
do anything about it and is appealing the decision back to the Supreme
Court. And today, prisoners in California launched their third hunger
strike to protest what they`re calling the subject to decades of indefinite
state-sanction torture by a long-term solitary confinement.
In California, inmates can be held in solitary confinement indefinitely,
and in Pelican Bay State Prison, nearly 100 inmates have been in solitary
for more than 20 years. An expert on torture for the U.N. has called
solitary confinement, quote, "a harsh measure which is contrary to
In 2005, 44 prisoners in the California prison system committed suicide, 70
percent of whom were in solitary confinement. Today we look back at
generations of routine forced sterilization and we gasp in horror in part
because of the Nazis it seems to clear to us this practice was an abject
Generations, our grandchildren will look back at the conditions of prisons
in California and the oblivion of solitary confinement and mark my words,
some future governor of the state will come before the citizens to
apologize and express profound moral regret for how we treated the
incarcerated. Jerry Brown can save that future governor the whole pathetic
ritual by acting now.
We`ll be right back with Click 3.
HAYES: This man is George Zimmerman`s physical trainer. He was called as
a witness today by the Zimmerman defense team. The case being made is that
George Zimmerman was so inept and unskilled in the gym he couldn`t possibly
have assaulted Trayvon Martin. That`s coming up.
But first I want to share the three awesomest things on the internet today.
Beginning with a city re-imagined. People had some crazy plans for New
York City back in the day. As a blog Gizmodo discovers. Infrastructure
proposals for the big an apple during the mid 20s century were impressive
and epic. Judging by these sketches, we do mean anything. The Hudson River
was supposed to be filled.
A dream airport was proposed for midtown Manhattan as well as a dome
intended to keep the air clear for folks in the bubble. No word of what
accommodations will be made for folks living outside the bubble.
Fortunately, well, I think fortunately, none of these plans came to
fruition, but it does give you something to consider the next time you hear
someone freak out about the new bike lanes.
The second awesomest thing on the internet today, an ode to the ubiquitous
hipster, chances are if you`re watching this program, you or someone you
love might be a hipster. These new hipsters maps show where one can find
hipsters in their natural habitat in a city near you. The city of Portland
is so chalked full there`s an entire program devoted to them.
Now the state of Oregon is taking things a step further. One of 17 states
running its own health insurance exchange. To prepare people for
enrolment, the state is rolling out a few ads. The campaign, part of the
cover Oregon program, is as much a nod to progressive health care as it is
a celebration of all things cage-free and ethically sourced with an indie
folk twist. That is the actual ad. Not to be outdone, an ad from New
Jersey`s federal exchange will feature this over the top table flip and a
whole bunch of profanity.
The third awesomest thing on the internet today brings us to Pamplona,
Spain where a century`s old tradition is unleashed on the cobble stone
during the annual running of the bulls. Get ready, amigos, for a full-on
attack. We root for the animals within reason, of course, in this mess.
Do the terrific job of letting the tourists know who`s boss. It was
revealed today through Instagram one of the runners is none other than Rex
Ryan, in the middle doing his best Ernest Hemingway impression wearing a
red t-shirt with a cartoon bull.
The photo was tweeted out by the star of the NBC reality show of "Ready For
Love." The fact the two met on the streets of Pamplona is either an
amazing coincidence or an elaborate pitch for the "Hangover 4." Ryan was
uninjured while participating. We have no video of Ryan running for his
life while running for bulls. If we did, it would be the biggest highlight
of the Jets` upcoming season.
You can find all the links for tonight`s Click 3 on our website,
allinwithchris.com. We`ll be right back.
HAYES: Today was the first full day of the defense`s case in the trial of
George Zimmerman who`s charged with the second-degree murder in the killing
of Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman had pleaded not guilty claiming self-defense.
Prosecution rested its case on a Friday. One of the prosecution`s final
witnesses before doing so was Trayvon Martin`s mother, Sybrina Fulton.
This is Miss Fulton listening to part of a 911 recording in court and her
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: I can`t see him. I don`t want to go out there. I don`t know
what`s going on.
DISPATCHER: So you think he`s yelling help?
BERNIE DE LA RIONDA, LEAD PROSECUTOR: Ma`am, that screaming, or yelling,
do you recognize that?
SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S MOTHER: Yes.
RIONDA: And who do you recognize that to be, ma`am?
FULTON: Trayvon Benjamin Martin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Trayvon Martin`s brother also testified about that very same
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What parts of the recording do you recognize as your
JAHVARIS FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S BROTHER: The yelling and the screaming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had you ever heard Trayvon Martin yell or scream as the
two of you were growing up?
FULTON: I`ve heard him yell, but not like that, but, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The defense opened its case with several witnesses including
Zimmerman`s uncle, saying the person yelling for help on that recording was
George Zimmerman. The defense called the defendant`s mother, Gladys
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK O`MARA, ZIMMERMAN`S DEFENSE LAWYER: Do you know whose voice that was
screaming in the background?
GLADY`S ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN`S MOTHER: Yes, sir.
O`MARA: And whose voice was that?
ZIMMERMAN: My son, George.
O`MARA: And are you certain of that?
ZIMMERMAN: Because he`s my son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Today, the defense brought back to the stand the lead investigator
of the case, Chris Serino, to testify as to the reaction of Trayvon
Martin`s father. Detective Serino played the recording for Tracy Martin
two days after his death and asked Martin if he recognized the voice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DETECTIVE SERINO: He looked away and under his breath, as I interpreted
it, said no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The defense also called to the stand Tracy Martin, himself. Mr.
Martin`s own testimony seemed to contradict Officer Serino.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRACY MARTIN, TRAYVON MARTIN`S FATHER: I think the chairs had wheels on
them and I kind of pushed away from the -- away from the table and just
kind of shook my head and said I can`t tell.
O`MARA: So your words were "I can`t tell"?
MARTIN: Something to that effect, but I never said, no, that wasn`t my
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Mr. Martin said he listened to the tape again at the Sanford
mayor`s office and played it about 20 times and knew that it was, in fact,
his son, Trayvon`s voice. Joining me now is Karen Desoto, criminal defense
attorney, James Peterson, MSNBC contributor, director of African Studies
and associate professor of English at Lee High University and Tim Wise,
anti-racism educator and author of the book "Dear White America: Letter To
A New Minority."
It was incredibly difficult to watch Trayvon Martin`s father on the stand
today trying to hold it together, trying to keep his composure under these
conditions. And it`s strange to end up so much time being spent on
contesting this one piece of evidence, whose voice is on the tape? Why is
that important to the case, Karen?
KAREN DESOTO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s important because obviously
the defense wants to prove that Zimmerman was not the aggressive, he didn`t
provoke the situation and that he didn`t create the situation. So if he
was the one crying for help, obviously, you know, he wasn`t the one who put
himself in that situation. That`s what they`re trying to prove, and
obviously whoever`s crying for help is the person that`s in a position of
vulnerability. And if that`s Zimmerman, obviously his self-defense is
going to be a lot more credible.
HAYES: It strikes me as bizarre just watching this, this kind of context
over the plausibility of Trayvon Martin as essentially aggressor in all of
this, which, yes --
JAMES PETERSON, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, how do we arrive at that?
Trayvon Martin is the victim. He`s no longer with us. Not only can he not
defend himself, but I think we can talk more about this, but this really
cuts along racial lines and, you know, when I was listening and watching
Tracy Martin today, I was unable to keep my composure, because at the end
of the day if you studied his face over the course of this trial, he has
sort of been an examination of pain and loss and frustration in this
particular case. He really reflects, I think, the way the black community
feels about the Trayvon Martin case right now.
TIM WISE, ANTI-RACISM EDUCATOR: Let`s be very honest, earn if you looked
at this evidence in the light most favorable to George Zimmerman, here`s
the reality. If George Zimmerman does not perceive Trayvon Martin as a
threat from the beginning, he does not pursue him, and no one knows who
Trayvon is, he`s still alive, and George Zimmerman is a pathetic wannabe
cop. Because he decided this young man didn`t deserve to be in the
community, he followed him and that is the process which led to all of this
HAYES: That, to me, is the de moral truth about the justice here, but it`s
not necessarily the legal truth that is salient, right? Because it is the
case, the way the charges have been brought and the way the case has been
instructed, if it turns out the jurors believe, it was, in fact, George
Zimmerman screaming help on that tape. That can clear the bar for him to
DESOTO: Well, in Florida, lesser included offenses are automatic. There
will be a charge for manslaughter.
HAYES: Explain what that means.
DESOTO: Lesser included offense is manslaughter, which is culpable
negligence. So you really don`t have to do the depraved mind thing. If
they can prove, negate his self-defense, which would be saying he created
the situation and, therefore, he was negligent for putting themselves into
that situation, then you would have an argument for the manslaughter
charge. I do believe that`s probably what the prosecution is going to at
least focus on now because second-degree I believe is off the table.
PETERSON: I think it`s awful we have to settle for that ultimately,
because the court of public opinion sees this case. They see that a kid
went to a store to buy Skittles and iced tea, to walk back home to his
father`s home and didn`t make it back. And we don`t see anything else
beyond that. So this criminal justice system, this justice system is not
working out for --
HAYES: I think what`s interesting about the way we watch this case, this
trial, is the side we find ourselves on. The part of the trial that we end
up rooting for and I, let me tell you, my friends circle includes a lot
more defense attorneys than it does prosecutors.
I know my friends are -- there`s a lot more public defenders in my friends
circle than there are prosecutors. That`s a fact about me, but I think we
are seeing an interesting reception on each side of the political aisle
about where they stand with this and I want to talk about that. I want to
play some tape from Fox News right after we take this break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN HANNITY, HOST, FOX NEWS` "HANNITY": Do you feel you wouldn`t be here
for this interview if you didn`t have that gun?
GEORGE ZIMMERMAN, DEFENDANT: No, sir.
HANNITY: You feel you would not be here?
ZIMMERMAN: I feel that it was all God`s plan and fore to second guess it
or judge it --
HANNITY: Is there anything you might do differently in retrospect now that
time has passed a little bit.
ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That was Fox News replaying an interview with Sean Hannity that
happened that got played in court, quite sympathetic interview. I`m here
with Karen Desoto, a criminal defense attorney, MSNBC contributor James
Peterson, and Tim Wise, anti-racism educator. We`re talking about the
Zimmerman trial. What`s interesting to me, Tim, as someone who locate
himself on the left, I tend to be very skeptical of the machinery of the
criminal justice system.
WISE: Because of the data.
HAYES: Because of the data, exactly.
WISE: It`s a biased system.
HAYES: Yet, here we are, I find myself being very angry at the defense or
watching the defense with skepticism and watching on the side of the
WISE: Well, let`s be honest. People on the right who would normally
completely willing to support the state and the D.A.s in just about
anything they do, in this particular case are all public defenders.
HAYES: That`s right, exactly. Everyone`s a --
WISE: I think what this tells and it`s an important point for us to make,
for all of us to think about, none of us come to any of these issues
particularly when race is in the frame from a totally objective place. When
race is in the picture, we all -- class, sexuality, anything in the
picture, we come with our own assumptions. Very few people who were saying
George Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty. How many of those people
were thinking O.J. might be innocent when he was in the --
HAYES: Exactly or was saying that about Ariel Castro when those three
women came out of the house in Cleveland, which was a monstrous crime.
He`s also innocent until proven guilty. Today in court we saw in some ways
the defense trying to use the political kind of explosion around this case
to their own defense.
DESOTO: I agree. I think that one of the defense tactics was to put
Trayvon Martin`s dad on the stand to set up the next witness which was the
chief of police who basically testified that was what the mayor did by
playing the tape to Trayvon Martin`s dad was improper, it was not best
practices. And kind of gave this inference that there was some kind of
HAYES: Right. Here`s the mayor kind of helicoptering in to an active
DESOTO: Not the police, the mayor.
HAYES: The irony here, right, of course we all saw this injustice play out
in realtime. The injustice of the non-arrest and yet it`s remarkable to
see that injustice was then redressed and now in the actual trial the
sequence of that being used, itself, by the defense --
PETERSON: I mean, again, look at this police department. Look at the
history of the Sanford Police Department. This is not an A-police police
department. For them to point the finger at the mayor for playing
politics, we have to go back to the moment where there wasn`t an arrest, we
were looking squarely at the Sanford Police Department. This is not the
kind of prosecution you normally see in these kinds of cases. At the end
of the day, I think the court of public opinion is not going to match up
what`s going on in the courtroom and that`s where we`re getting the tension
as the case starts to wind down.
DESOTO: Well, I think one of the problems is the state of Florida giving
out concealed weapons to their citizens when it`s very, very difficult in
other states to get a concealed weapon. Then expect that these types of
things are not going to happen. I mean, it`s really -- no one is winning
in this case, but the state of Florida. I think the Martins should go
ahead and file something against the state of Florida for liability
correlated to that. If you`re going to give George Zimmermans of the world
guns who are not military, not trained police and expect this is not going
to happen --
WISE: Someone who`s not, you know, historically been proven to be the most
stable individual. I mean, this is what happens when we have an overly
armed society, any society, particularly, where racial bias is so
prevalent, all of these things combine to create these disasters.
HAYES: Criminal Defense Attorney Karen Desoto, MSNBC contributor James
Peterson, anti-racism educator, Tim Wise. Thank you so much. That is ALL
IN for this evening.
The "RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts now. Tonight, special guest host, Ezra
Klein. Good evening, Ezra.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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