>>>
imagine in your world was limited to this. 11 feet, 7 inches long. 7 feet, 7 inches wide. no windows, a bed, a toilet, a sink. unable to move more than about 8 feet in one direction or another. little to no contact with other people all day. the exception, a 90-minute period of time to move into a concrete pen for exercise. and then it's back into the tiny box, for days, weeks, months, years, decades, in a space very much like the space -- actually, not like the space -- not with the big, high ceilings, just in the tiny space like the one i'm in now, except no idea when or if the isolation is going to end. those are the dimensions of life for nearly 4,000 people living in long-term isolation, in the security housing units or shus in
california
's
prison system
, more commonly known as
solitary confinement
. those housed in indefinite isolation are left to con tend with the slow, steady erosion of their
mental health
into depression, psychosis, hallucinations, rage, sequences that led to a lawsuit filed last year by the
center for constitutional rights
, on behalf of prisoners who spent 10 to 28 years in isolation at
pelican bay
, one of the country's first super max facilities, built specifically to house inmates in long-term isolation. on monday, prisoners responded to the policy with a
hunger strike
that began at
pelican bay
and spread to two-thirds of
california
's 3 3
prisons
to push for an end to long-term
solitary confinement
. at its peak, nearly 30,000
california
prisoners joined the protests. yesterday marked day five of the day strike, with more than 12,000 prisoners continuing to forego meals in demand for their rights. one of my guests today has experienced firsthand what it means to live in
solitary confinement
and what it feels like to be inside a cell at
pelican bay prison
.
>>
this cell is one of eight in a pod. at a little over 11
x 7
feet, it's smaller than any i've ever inhabited.
>>
we're in a shu cell right now. the inmate is outside. this is where he sleeps, and another
cell mate
sleeps up there. it's pretty bleak.
>>
that was shane bauer, an
investigative journalist
who visited the shu at
pelican bay state prison
, as part of an
investigative report
for "
mother jones
" magazine. shane was also imprisoned in
iran
for 26 months and sfepent four of those months locked in
solitary confinement
. also here, pardiss kebriaei.
glenn martin
, vice president of
public affairs
for the fortune society, a
nonprofit organization
that works to help formerly incarcerated people to reenter our society. and
victoria
law, author of "resistance wbehind bars," and a contributor to "the nation." let me start with you. you write that
pelican bay
is worse than your experience in
iran
?
>>
yeah, i think it's hard to generally compare kind of american
prisons
and iranian
prisons
. iranian
prisons
, you know, people are physically tortured and things like that. but specifically dealing with
solitary confinement
, the cells at
pelican bay
are smaller than the cells i inhabited. there are no windows in these cells. i have met people at
pelican bay
who have not seen a tree in 12 years. just the duration of time is really much, much longer in
california
. my wife, sarah, spent 13 months in
solitary confinement
in
iran
. i know of no case of anybody spending a longer period of
time in iran
in
solitary confinement
. in
california
, there's at least people who spent ten years in confinement. there's a man who's been in for 42 years.
>>
that notion that it can go on for decades,
victoria
, your writing here is compel, in part because it reminds us that human contact, like even contact with girds, the ability to call your family, all of that goes away. what happens to people's minds, to their emotions in this kind of context?
>>
for a lot of people, their minds start to deteriorate. a lot of people have reported getting agorophobia, because they're unable to live outside of this tiny little 7 x 11 foot box. and when we're talking about security housing units, that's only one form of
solitary confinement
that
california
and the
united states
practices. so in
california
, there are also women in these security housing units as well. and as you may know,
women in prison
are often primary caregivers of their children before they go to prison. and when they're in the security housing units, both -- both they and male prisoners in security housing units are not loud to make phone calls. so manage going 10, 15, 20 years without being able to call your
loved ones
. the only time you're allowed to call your
loved ones
is when someone dies.
>>
and in fact, the children, not just you not being able to call, but you, small child, not being able to hear from your parents.
>>
yes.
>>
part of the reason why we wanted to do this back to back with the
gitmo
hunger strikes
is this sense of, when we talk about
gitmo
, people are like, well, i mean, those are terrorists. those are people who have done potentially this terrible -- these are, for the most part, american citizens, for the most part, men of color, for the most part,
poor people
. people who have had
drug addictions
of various kinds. this is how we treat people in this country, in this -- is there -- does this tell us something about who we are as a country?
>>
you know, i think the other thing it does, though, for me,
gitmo
was my first exposure to
solitary confinement
. and a group us working on
gitmo
for a long time thought it was an aberration and the exception. and it was only when i started representing a man who is now at a supermax facility, a federal facility, in florence, colorado, the adx prison, and i saw -- i met him and saw the conditions that he was in and i heard from him that i realized the connections, that i started here. there are tens of thousands of people who are held in those very conditions that you were just standing in. and what's happened at guantanamo is really sort of exporting those policies. but it started here.
>>
we practiced on our own people.
>>
and it is far from an exception.
>>
glen, every time we do a prison segment, and you've been a guest, you know, several times, every time my executive producer rolls his eyes and says, really? because we lose audience. people actually turn the tv off. and yet, the relatively sensati sensation docu-dramas that we do on "lockup" on this network are extremely highly rated. how can i get nerdland to care that this is happening? that this matters for who we are as a people?
>>
i think -- you know, i'm glad you're contextualizing it. we're addicted to punishment and addicted to incarceration. and if the country is addicted to incarceration,
california
is like a heroin addict that just hit the lottery. essentially, you have the majority of their state work is our
correctional officers
. the
correctional officers
are extremely powerful. you have to understand, there's a national lobby now pushing to sustain these prison systems and to build them, essentially. because they have become part of the economic engine in states like
california
.
>>
that strikes me as so important.
victoria
, this idea that the people who are working there now constitute the majority of those state workers. i just kept thinking, i'm sorry, didn't i just hear a
supreme court
ruling telling
california
to shed prisoners? the next thing i know, we've got
hunger strikes
in this state.
>>
yes. so the
supreme court
ruling happened in
2011
, that stated extreme overcrowding in
california
prisons
violated the eighth amendment against
cruel and unusual punishment
. and instead of making plans to release people,
california
started shifting people around, so now they're transferring people in state
prisons
to
county jails
. so they are no longer in the
state prison
system. earlier this year, they converted the
valley state prison for women
into a men's prison to shift the men's overcrowded population into their. and subsequently crammed the, roughly a thousand women into the remaining two women state
prisons
, and then opened the smaller women's prison. women who had been transferred from
valley state prison for women
, who were in the shu in valley state were transferred to the shu at the
california institution for women
. they were in the shu for determinant sentences, meaning they had an end date for a similar violation, like having too much
toilet paper
or owning tweezers or, you know, having too many books in their cell. and when they got to the
california constitution
for women, they were told that because there is no place else to put them in the prison, because it is so overcrowded, they will remain in the prison, in the shu, until they are released. but in the meantime, they have to continue being under all the same restrictions that people in the shu are in.
>>
and at this point, it could be small things. having too much
toilet paper
, having too many books. i think that's the other thing in your piece that just stunned me, that people are being put into this for prison infractions, not because they're the murderers, child killers, you know, like that's not what's happening, right? it's prison infractions against prison rules, not crimes against society.
>>
and it's not even that, a lot of the times. a lot of inmates that have indeterminant terms in
california
have not actually committed rules violations. they're deemed to be gang affiliates. and when you look at the evidence of what is considered, you know, evidence of gang affiliation, it can be quite arbitrary. i've seen possession of academic books about the
black panthers
used as evidence, "the
art of war
," journal writings about african-
american history
that is called afro-centric ideology, is considered to be indicative of gang activity, using words like tio and hermano can indicate gang activity. you don't have to actually hurt somebody. and most of the people that have arbitrary terms are considered associates, not even gang members.
>>
so if you read my syllabus for afro-am 101, you can end up in a 7 x 11 cell.
>>
if you were teaching that syllabus in prison, it would definitely increase your chances.
>>
stay right there. i want to talk more about this and push a little more on the particular
role of women
. and i want to talk to you, glen, about alternatives the for incarceration. what are the other things we can be doing here when we come back? remember when
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