updated 8/1/2013 10:47:30 AM ET 2013-08-01T14:47:30

THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
July 31, 2013
Guests: Ilyse Hogue, Ana Marie Cox, James Bamford, Hunter Walker


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST: It is 10:00 p.m., and Anthony Weiner is
still running for mayor. And we have a winner tonight, or I should say we
have a surrender tonight in the fight between Rand Paul and Chris Christie.

And President Obama is not giving up on trying to get Congress to do
the right thing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Obama is heading to the Hill a little
bit later on today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: President Obama had pep rallies with House and
Senate Democrats.

TAMRON HALL, MSNBC ANCHOR: He kept his message tight and focused.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Jobs, middle class,
growth.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: It`s basically just
another internal campaign rally.

ANDREA MITCHELL, MSNBC ANCHOR: Not everyone thinks that is a great
idea.

MCCONNELL: Just a further vision o a widely panned plan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Also, though, you see what Ted Cruz is doing?

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: There are a lot of Republicans politicians
who like to say they are opposed to Obamacare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`d just go crazy on Republicans.

CRUZ: Stand for principles. Stand up and defund it. Don`t fund
Obamacare.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is comparing Mitch McConnell to Barack Obama.

STEPHEN COLBERT, COMEDIAN: Yes, good old senator gridlock.

MCCONNELL: Our top political priority should be to deny President
Obama a second term.

COLBERT: Go back to the lesbian food co-op, rainbow warrior.

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Today is the 48 anniversary
of Medicare.

BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS: Wrongdoing in the TSA.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would-be thieves ramming a pickup truck.

MAYOR BOB FILNER (D), SAN DIEGO: I`m clearly doing something wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But first, Senate officials are grilling top
U.S. intelligence officials.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Section 215 is critical --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pertaining to the controversial collection of
millions of telephone records.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are checks at multiple levels.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t expect there is no risk and consequence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York City mayoral candidate, Anthony Weiner,
fighting back.

ANTHONY WEINER (D), NYC MAYORAL CANDIDATE: I just got good ideas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His outburst at that meeting.

WEINER: I don`t know if I`m going to win, but I`m going to stay in
here and I`m going to keep fighting for what I believe in.

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO HOST: I get more agree than the Taliban.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: I try to keep things on a less personal
way.

CHRIS JANSING, MSNBC ANCHOR: Little too much sniping here.

PAUL: With Governor Christie, it`s gotten a little too personal. So
we`re ready to kiss and make up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O`DONNELL: President Obama went to Capitol Hill today knowing exactly
what he is up against, which was eloquently diagnosed 530 miles away from
Washington, D.C. in Lexington, Kentucky today by the 34-year-old Democratic
Kentucky secretary of state, Alison Lundergan Grimes, who is running to
unseat Republican leader Mitch McConnell in the Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALISON LUNDERGAN GRIMES (D-KY), SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: There is a
disease in the dysfunction in Washington, D.C. And after nearly 30 years,
Mitch McConnell was at the center of it, where once, congressmen and
senators would come together to find common ground, to work for the better
good -- we now have Senator McConnell, the proud gridlock, grinding the
government to a halt.

Senator McConnell, he has wasted decades, blocking legislation that
could actually help Kentuckians and move this nation forward. And the most
recent years, he`s done it for the worst possible reason -- a reason that
my granny would tell you was no motivation at all -- out of spite.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Senator McConnell offered this welcome to President Obama
on the Senate floor in advance of his visit to the Hill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: I really would be nice to see President Obama work with
Congress for a change, to get some important things done for the American
people. Republicans have been eager to do this all along. But really, it
is almost like there is a "gone campaigning" sign outside of the Oval
Office. A "gone campaigning" sign outside the Oval Office. And on the
rarest of occasions when he does come to the Hill as he will today, you
find out it is basically just another internal campaign rally with
Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: President Obama visited with both House and Senate
Democrats. He went to the House side first, where congressional reporters
asked him about symptoms of the disease of dysfunction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: What`s the message you`re bringing to the Hill today?

OBAMA: Jobs, middle class, growth.

REPORTER: Are some Republicans treating you like a lame duck around
here?

OBAMA: (INAUDIBLE)

REPORTER: What has he done to avoid a shutdown this fall? What would
you do to negotiate with Republicans?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining me now: Krystal Ball, co-host of MSNBC`s "THE
CYCLE", and "Washington Post`s" Ezra Klein, an MSBNC analyst.

Krystal, first of all, to this new opponent Mitch McConnell has in
Kentucky, Alison Lundergan Grimes -- she is a very powerful speaker.

KRYSTAL BALL, "THE CYCLE": She is amazing. I think she is a very
powerful speaker and I think Mitch McConnell is very afraid of her and I
think he`s also afraid of his Tea Party opponent that he has in the
primary. So he is in a very tough spot -- a tough spot that he, by the
way, created. I mean, he was instrumental in fanning the flames of the Tea
Party wave that they were happy to ride in 2010. And now, it is unlikely
that this guy would be able to take McConnell out in the primary but
McConnell is certainly worried about him.

And on the other hand, you have Alison Lundergan Grimes, very popular
in Kentucky, very strong candidate, the strongest candidate that Democrats
could have hoped for. And McConnell is essentially responsible for
drumming a much less powerful candidate out of the race early on. So, he
is also responsible for having a tough Democratic challenger in this race.

O`DONNELL: Ezra, the bad news for America, and the bad news for Mitch
McConnell is that he first of all has a challenger, a Republican challenger
in Kentucky from his right, who is complaining about how cooperative Mitch
McConnell has been with President Obama. So this -- that will be the first
force that will presumably make Mitch McConnell even more intransigent on
the Senate floor.

EZRA KLEIN, MSNBC ANALYST: Through the looking glass we go.

I think if people had heard back a couple of years ago in 2013, Mitch
McConnell would be doing everything in his power to remain as close to Rand
Paul as he could possibly could, they would have laughed. It was just been
an utter absurdity. But that is exactly what he is doing.

Now the good news for America, Lawrence, is that Mitch McConnell is
beginning to lose control of his members. You have had vote after vote, I
mean, going back to immigration, last week you had some appropriations
bills moving forward, which are important, right? These are bill that is
will fund the government. The bills that will eventually be needed to stop
a government shutdown.

Mitch McConnell didn`t want his members to vote for the bill, I
believe 16 voted to end the filibuster and six voted to see it go forward.
So, you`re actually seeing a frustration among Senate Republicans. As he
said in the little soliloquy he gave there, a lot of Republicans do want to
work with Obama, at least work a little bit with Democrats at this point.
And they`re coming to see Mitch McConnell and his personal political
situation as one of the impediments to doing so.

O`DONNELL: The I want to actually show this ad, because it is
extraordinary, that McConnell is being challenged from the right and by
this guy Matt Bevin. I want to show you his ad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT BEVIN (R), KY SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Mitch McConnell has had a
long career in Washington. But after 30 years in Washington, is his
leadership really the best we can do?

NARRATOR: McConnell has voted for higher taxes, bailouts, debt
ceiling increases, congressional pay raises, and liberal judges.

BEVIN: I`m Matt Bevin, I approve this message because America
deserves more than failed leadership.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Krystal Ball, you laugh, but, you know, Matt Bevin was
counting on Mitch McConnell to prevent any judges from being confirmed
ever.

BALL: That`s right. Matt Bevin is against governance altogether.

Well, what`s interesting about that message of he has been in
Washington too long is that is a message that is going to play in the
primary. It`s also going to play in the general election.

And when Alison Lundergan Grimes points out he is the cause of the
disease of dysfunction, that is not hyperbole here. I mean, as Ezra is
indicating here, Mitch McConnell is probably more responsible than anyone
for the dysfunction in Washington than anyone else, because he is the one
who is going for all of these filibusters in the Senate that are keeping
anything from happening.

So, you know, when he goes out saying the president needs to come to
Capitol, he needs to work with them, it`s sort of unbelievable that
McConnell would say that with a straight face.

O`DONNELL: I want to take a look at McConnell`s poll numbers in
Kentucky, which I don`t have in a piece of paper, but I think we`ll put it
up on the screen, we can all read this. There you go, 45 percent approve,
53 percent disapprove.

This is of -- the Republican leader of the United States Senate in his
home state. And you know, he has -- then look at this. This is really bad
for an incumbent. Definitely vote to re-elect. Only 40 percent, 60
percent of the electorate is available.

And, Ezra Klein, whenever an incumbent senator sees that number, that
his re-elect is 40 percent, that is one desperate incumbent senator.

KLEIN: Yes, it doesn`t make him happy.

This is sort of the central irony what they have done in the past up
couple of years. There is a strategy, I actually happen to love McConnell,
because McConnell is by far the most honest man in Washington. You get a
lot of folks in this town who are not telling you what they`re doing.
They`re just sort of cover in all in bromides about bipartisanship and
getting things done.

You ask Senator McConnell, he says well, I`m trying to get Barack
Obama out of office as quickly as possibly can. But there`s been an
honesty and cynicism to the strategy to just make everything in Washington
work as poorly as possibly. And the idea was that the voters would take
out their frustration about the gridlock in this town on the majority
party, on President Obama.

That didn`t really work. It seemed to work a little bit in 2010
maybe, but then, Republicans got enough control to really grid lock things
up. And then Barack Obama obviously lost the 2012 re-elect. The
Republicans poll numbers, this has been, ended up being a little bit of a
suicide mission. Republicans have inflicted enormous damage on themselves
with the strategy being that they would run somebody outside of Washington
to beat Obama. That failed.

But now, they can`t get out of it. Now they created a strategy they
actually can`t control. Mitch McConnell can`t back off because he got a
challenger saying, you know, Mitch McConnell is actually trying to govern
in Washington.

BALL: Right.

KLEIN: And McConnell sees that as a devastating attack line.

BALL: That is the irony here, that McConnell created the opportunity
for this challenge from the right. The beast he created is now in danger
of eating him.

O`DONNELL: I think what Alison Grimes got across today about this
relentless McConnell opposition to the president, was he`s very effective
in her last line. She made it generic, where she said, he`s done it for
the worst possible reason, a reason my granny would tell you is no reason
at all, out of spite.

And, Krystal, I think that delivers it to the Kentucky voters that is
very clear and nonpartisan in the sense.

BALL: That is exactly right, and there is nothing that the Kentucky
voters and a lot of voters across the country hate more than Washington, an
establishment Washington. And so that is going to be a very powerful
message for her going forward.

And she has pretty high favorable ratings in the state. She is an
established player, even as young as she is. She comes from an established
political family there, is the toughest possible challenger he could have
drawn.

So he is in a tough place where right now he can`t say anything for
risk of either offending his right flank, or offending the more moderate
folks who will actually be voting in the general election.

O`DONNELL: And, Ezra, to see a leader, Republican or Democratic
leader in the Senate, in a weak reelection position in their state is very
rare.

The leaders normally are very popular in their home states. Their own
election is never at risk. And that is why they can lead. They can
actually do things because their own electorate frees them up to do it. I
think the last one we saw with this kind of risk was Tom Daschle.

BALL: Harry Reid actually.

KLEIN: And he lost. And yes, I think Krystal makes a good point.
Harry Reid was in danger in 2010.

Look, you don`t want to count Mitch McConnell out. We`re real early.
He is a very canny politician. But I think in the short term certainly,
what you`re about to see is he has no intent to govern. It is a horrible
set not just for Mitch McConnell, but for the country at large. He is
having to run the Republican caucus, the Republican conference in the
Senate, while trying to protect himself from his right flank.

And again the way he is doing that is attach himself to Rand Paul, who
is a popular politician in his state at the moment. But again --

(CROSSTALK)

KLEIN: He endorsed the other guy in the race and got humiliated when
Paul won. He`s grabbed, by the way, a bunch of Paul staff to run his
campaign. But I do think what continues to be the good news here, is that
a number of Mitch McConnell`s colleagues have assessed the situation
accurately and begin to say, look, we can`t hitch our train in McConnell in
the next year, or we`ll get nothing done and it will be for his purpose,
not for ours.

BALL: Well, and bottom line here, this is another Senate seat that
Republicans should not be losing and could lose.

O`DONNELL: Should not be risking. That`s right.

Krystal Ball and Ezra Klein, thank you both for joining me tonight.

BALL: Thanks, Lawrence.

KLEIN: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, what baked goods had to do with the protest
over new abortion restrictions in North Carolina. Cookies, the governor
actually offered the protesters cookies.

And in the rewrite, we now have a winner in the Rand Paul versus Chris
Christie fight. And nobody should be surprised.

And Anthony Weiner made news for the campaign today. Of course, and
his staff is making the kind of news that no candidate wants them to make.
That`s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Have you ever thought about how hard it is being Rush
Limbaugh?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIMBAUGH: I get more grief than the Taliban gets. I get more grief
than al Qaeda gets, and all conservatives do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: More grief than al Qaeda gets. That`s more grief than the
guys in Gitmo. That`s more grief than the people who have drones landing
in their homes. That`s more grief than Osama bin Laden?

I don`t think so, Rush.

Coming up. Why the North Carolina governor thinks he can give cookies
to his opponents after lying to them in the campaign and signing a new very
restrictive abortion law.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROTESTERS: Hey, Pat, that was rude! You wouldn`t give cookies to a
dude. Hey, Pat, that rude! You wouldn`t give cookies to a dude.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: One day after signing a restrictive abortion bill, North
Carolina`s governor, Pat McCrory, attempted to make peace with pro-choice
protesters outside his mansion, with cookies. The governor crossed the
street, carrying a plate of cookies and reportedly told a woman "These are
for you, God bless you."

Protesters placed the plate of cookies back at the mansion gates with
a note reading, "Governor McCrory, we`ll take women`s health over cookies."

Protesters say Governor McCrory is breaking a promise he clearly made
on the campaign trail last year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MODERATOR: This past year, state lawmakers passed the women`s right
to no act, a new law that added restrictions and some say made it more
difficult for women to get abortions in North Carolina. If you`re elected
governor, what restrictions on abortion would you agree to sign?

I`ll start with you, Mr. McCrory.

PAT MCCRORY (R-NC), THEN-GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: None.

MODERATOR: All right.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining me now are Elyse Hogue, president of NARAL Pro-
Choice America, and Ana Marie Cox, columnist for "The Guardian".

Elyse Hogue, I`ve been wondering, why would the governor in that
debate give such a clear answer, if this is what he was going to end up
doing? What was he thinking back then?

ELYSE HOGUE, NARAL PRO-CHOICE AMERICA: You know, I think he was
thinking what we all know, which is that women`s health and women`s rights
are actually the mainstream in America and he couldn`t get elected if he
said what he was actually going to do, which I now taking choices away and
restricting women`s rights.

And this is going to what we`re seeing, which is people don`t trust
politicians. They don`t trust them in North Carolina more than ever, and
McCrory has given them every reason to. But people do trust doctors to
help them make their own choices about these critical health decisions.

O`DONNELL: And was a resignation by a state health director who said
in her announcement said, "I acknowledge that I have significant
differences and disagreements, with many of the policy administrative
directions that I see unfolding in North Carolina, and in the Department of
Health and Human Services. These differences are making it increasingly
impossible to be effective in my current role."

Now, Ana Marie Cox, she did not say anything specifically about this
new role, but where she probably believed what the governor said in that
debate.

ANA MARIE COX, THE GUARDIAN: And probably was made to feel very
unwelcomed. I just want to sort of jump in and say what I think McCrory
might have been thinking, which is that these laws get passed in part
because people believe politicians when they say they`re for a woman`s
health, that either they`re somehow making abortions safer. So
politicians, they think they are not plausibly arguing that they`re
abortion restrictions, so much as, you know, things that they do, out of
concern for women`s health.

And I think Ilyse knows probably even better than I do, that, in fact,
these laws actually make abortions more unsafe for women, causing them to
be later in term, when they`re more unsafe to do. And there is like no
epidemic of unsafe abortions happening really. These laws solve a problem
that doesn`t exist.

And I hope that McCrory gets called out on this, that, you know,
abortions are going down in this country, that is a good thing -- because
of the availability of contraception, because of the availability of
abortions in early term and the possibility for women to be able to talk to
doctors on their own that we`re seeing this. And this all sort of gets in
the way of that trend.

O`DONNELL: Now, Ana Marie makes a good point, Ilyse, which is that
this is for women`s health. We are saying that they must upgrade
significantly the facilities that they`re doing, these procedures in, and
make them basically world class surgical centers.

So why isn`t that a good thing for women?

HOGUE: Because it is, as Ana Marie said, solving a problem that
doesn`t exist. This is a specific regulation targeted at a clinic with a
specific goal, which is to drive them out of business. Otherwise, we would
see a law that equally apply to all of these facilities, that perform
similar types of procedures, like dental facilities, like colonoscopies.
No, this is very specific. It is directed at abortion providers and it`s
intended to drive them out of business.

And like Ana Marie said, not only not good for women`s health, but I
actually think that McCrory and these other politicians know that what
they`re doing is not popular. And if it is exposed to public debate it
would actually come out that they are in fact endangering women. That is
why they do these things in secret. That`s why they have to cheat and lie
and go back on campaign promises, to achieve their goal, which is to force
these clinics to shut and endanger women.

O`DONNELL: Ana Marie, what do you foresee, say, two-year -- with a
law like this that is about a couple of years old, what kind of cases, what
kind of incidents will we see that we haven`t been seeing in this country?

COX: Well, ironically, as we`ve been saying -- again, they can
actually make abortion more unsafe. It can drive up the cost of abortions,
in terms of women having to travel to get them. It can also create kind of
back alley abortion provider that was one of the reasons why people
embraced the package of Roe v. Wade, is to get rid of that kind of thing.

You encourage women, especially poor women who don`t have the means to
travel great distances to go to a place that`s legal in North Carolina, to
go to a place that says they can perform an abortion that maybe doesn`t
have the right kind of equipment, doesn`t have the standards that a clinic
would have that was operating in the open.

These are things that can happen. There is a great article I have to
point to on Boing Boing, the Web site. It`s an interview with an OB-GYN,
who practiced in Kansas, which has some of the most restrictive abortion
laws in the country. And she talked about patients that she would see in
the emergency room coming in with botched abortions, that were undocumented
immigrants that were getting abortions, and women that were just too scared
for whatever reason to try and go through rigmarole that was required in
Kansas.

And that`s what can happen. These laws can have the exact opposite
effect of what politicians are saying. And I hope it`s through discussions
like these that we exposed these to the light of day because they are doing
them in secret.

O`DONNELL: Ilyse Hogue and Ana Marie Cox, thank you both for joining
me tonight.

HOGUE: Thank you.

COX: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, what do you have to worry about on the Internet
now? OK, there is identity theft. There is all that stuff. And now,
there is everything we`re learning from Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald.
We will be joined by an expert who will tell you maybe, maybe how to cover
your tracks to stay out of trouble on the Internet.

And in the rewrite tonight, the winner in the Chris Christie versus
the Rand Paul fight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARD SNOWDEN, NSA LEAKER: I, sitting at my desk, certainly have the
authorities to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant, to a federal
judge, to even the president if I had a personal email.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: In the spotlight tonight, what you really have to worry
about on the Internet.

First, there were scam artists trying to trick us out of our money
from locations all over the world. They have never been really
sophisticated, so reasonably alert Internet users have never felt
particularly threatened by them. But then came identity thieves and an
entire industry has grown up around the prevention of identity theft, while
the criminal enterprise of identity theft has become increasingly agile in
the way that such criminals can dig into your life and steal from you.

Many of us no longer communicate certain things via the Internet, like
bank account numbers or Social Security numbers. Having to revert to old
fashioned voice communication and in person communication for higher levels
of security.

And then today, today comes Glenn Greenwald and "The Guardian",
releasing information about the National Security Surveillance program, X-
KEYSCORE. According to training material provided by Edward Snowden, X-
KEYSCORE allows NSA analysts to collect nearly everything a user does on
the Internet. That includes personal e-mails, online chats, web searches
and social media activity like Facebook chats and private messages.

And according to training materials, slides released today. It seems
that all an analyst needs to get started is a personal email address or IP
address. "The Guardian" reports X key score collects so much information,
though, it can only be stored for three to five days. One NSA report from
2007 estimated that there were 850 billion call events collected and stored
in the NSA data bases. And close to 150 billion internet records, each
day. The document says one to two billion records were added according to
the guardian. Today, the White House said that not all of the information
in "the Guardian" piece today is true.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY CARNEY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: As we have explained in the
intelligence community has explained allegations of wide spread unchecked
analyst access to NSA collection data are false. Access to all of NSA`s
analytic tools is limited to only those personnel who are required access
for their assigned tasks. And there are multiple supervisory checks for
those in the system to prevent those who don`t have access for achieving
that access.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining me now, security agency expert, James Bamford.

James Bamford, how much more scared should we be tonight of our key
strokes on the internet than we were last night?

JAMES BAMFORD, NSA EXPERT: Well, I think everybody should be very
worried. As it said in the documents that were released, NSA`S tool
collects quote "nearly everything a user does on the internet." And you
know, that is really -- I think the worst part about this whole thing is
the ability to collect what everybody does on the internet. It is one
thing to collect what two people are talking about. But when you`re
actually communicating on the internet, a lot of times it is things that
you don`t want anybody to know. It is just you and Google. And you`re
typing things, you are thinking basically through the tips of your fingers.
And there are things you`re putting in there that you don`t particularly
want anybody to know. And now, what these documents show is that all
anybody at the NSA has to do is go to this standard form on their computer.
Enter an e-mail address, put down how much of that data you want. You want
all the person`s e-mails for a week. All of their internet searches for a
month, whatever it is. And it all pops up. And you`re just reading
people`s e-mails.

O`DONNELL: But aren`t they saying that they only keep this data -- it
is so much this they can only hold onto to it for three or five days.

BAMFORD: Well, there is two things. One of them is that don`t --
they can`t specifically target an American by name. But if you put an e-
mail address in there and there is no further checks. You don`t have to go
through the foreign intelligence surveillance court or anything, then, you
can pick up a great deal.

In terms of the amount of time you can keep these things that is true.
But I wrote a very long cover story for wired magazine last year, they
looked at this enormous facility they`re building out in Bluffdale, Utah.
It is NSA`s mammoth data storage facility, and it will be a million square
feet. And then, the actual data holding component will be 100,000 square
feet. So you figure out how much data you can put on a little flash drive
these days, you can put a great deal of information in there. So I think
that is one of the reasons they`re building this is so that they can store
much more data for much more longer period of time.

O`DONNELL: I want to draw a distinction here between what we now
think based on some of these released information is technically possible
versus what is authorized. And I think that it gets blurred a lot in the
way this gets talk about both in articles and on television.

Ad so the fact that someone working there can reach in and grab some
of these things and does not mean that they are authorized to do it. And I
think that is where Jay Carney at the White House was talking about today,
was kind of talking right across what Glenn Greenwald was reviewing.

BAMFORD: Right, there is talk both ways. But, there has, you know,
misinformation both ways. There has been all of this discussion from both
the NSA and the White House on how these programs have saved so many lives
through all of these terrorist programs. At one point the NSA was saying
more than 50 terrorists operations have been stopped. Yet today, you had
the Senate Judiciary Committee, the chairman, Senator Leahy, who said that
it is all nonsense. He can`t find almost any case where there was a
terrorist attempt or terrorist operation that was thwarted because of the
metadata program, example.

So it is very hard to tell where the truth is in all of this because
the NSA is exaggerating the importance of it. And you know, maybe the --
Greenwald is exaggerating some of that. So it is hard to tell where the
real truth lies.

O`DONNELL: James Bamford, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

BAMFORD: My pleasure, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, today it was Anthony Weiner`s campaign staff
that made the front page of the newspaper.

And in the rewrite, we have a winner in the Rand Paul versus Chris
Christie fight. We actually have a surrender. And the man surrendering
actually says he wants to kiss the other one. I`m serious, you will hear
him say it in his own words. Don`t move, you`re going to see it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: So we have a loser, the winner may not be in the mood.
That is next in the rewrite.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: And we have a winner in the Rand Paul versus Chris
Christie fight. Last night, the judges called it unanimously for Chris
Christie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a major league political talent. And I
think he man-handled Rand Paul in the last two debates.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said this started because I was asked a
question. And when people ask me questions I just give plain, simple
answers, and that is why Steve talks about him being such a major league
talent.

O`DONNELL: Don`t mess with jersey, is the message for senator Rand
Paul.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And today, the very first thing Rand Paul did was admit he
was beat and surrendered. He did it on a New Hampshire radio show first
thing this morning. And then just to make sure that Chris Christie would
hear him this afternoon, senator Paul surrendered on the official
Republican news channel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), KENTUCKY: Yes, I think it is time to dial it down.
I think we have enough Democrats to attack that maybe Republicans can quit
attacking Republicans. You know, I have said my piece on this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: As reported here last night, this is what Rand Paul said
when he said his piece on Chris Christie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: It is really -- I think kind of sad and cheap that he would use
the cloak of 9/11 victims and say, I`m the only one who cares about these
victims. Hog wash, if he cared about protecting this country, maybe he
wouldn`t be on this give me, give me, give me all the money you have in
Washington or don`t have, and he would be a little more fiscally
responsible, and note that the way we defend our country, the way that we
have enough money for national defense is by being frugal and not by saying
give me, give me, give me all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: The give me, give me, give me beat was about Chris
Christie fighting for federal aid for the victims of hurricane Sandy in New
Jersey. Like most Republicans, Rand Paul had no idea that New Jersey was
simply asking for its own money back from Washington because as we pointed
out here Monday night, and as Chris Christie echoed the next day, New
Jersey sends more money for the federal government than it ever gets back
in federal spending. In fact, for every dollar New Jersey sends to
Washington, it only gets back 77 cents, while Rand Paul`s give me, give me,
give me Kentucky, one of those give me, give me, give me states gets back
much more from the government than it ever sends back to the federal
government. For every dollar, Rand Paul`s Kentucky sends to Washington, in
fact, he gets back $1.57.

And now as I said, I didn`t expect Chris Christie to go there because
of all of the important presidential primary states. They are all give me,
give me, give me states that get more money than they ever send in. And
the first four Republican primary states, Ohio, New Hampshire, South
Carolina and Florida are all what Rand Paul would call give me, give me
give me states, if they actually knew the math.

And then what could be, what could be actually a clue, a minor clue
that Chris Christie may not be planning on running for president, he
actually did use that argument against Rand Paul yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Interestingly, Kentucky get
$1.51 on every dollar they send to Washington. So if senator Paul wants to
look at where he should cut spending for defense, maybe he should look at
cutting the pork barrel spending that he brings home to Kentucky, at 1.51
for every dollar, and not look at New Jersey, where we get 61 cents for
every dollar.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Christie was not actually using the latest numbers there.
It is, as I said, 77 cents for New Jersey, 1.57 for Kentucky, according to
you latest figures But the problem for Chris Christie there was how does
he take that argument on the road to those early presidential primary
states who all profit from the federal government the way Kentucky does?
And as of yesterday it l like this fight was going to go on perhaps all the
way to the presidential campaign trail, because yesterday, Rand Paul shot
back to Chris Christie about federal spending in their states.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: We have two military bases in Kentucky. And is governor Chris
Christie recommending that we shut down our military bases?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: The relentlessly uninformed Rand Paul actually believed it
was Kentucky`s two military bases that allowed it to turn a profit in its
relationship with the federal government. Rand Paul, very clearly, had no
idea that New Jersey has eight military bases and even with four times the
military bases that Kentucky has, New Jersey still loses money in its
relationship with the federal government because New Jersey sends in so
much more in tax revenue than Kentucky can ever dream of. And that is
because New Jersey is richer than Kentucky, much, much richer. Much more
successful, that is the Republican word for it, successful. That is how
Republicans put it, because they equate income and success. So, New Jersey
is much more successful. The median income in New Jersey is $71,180. The
median income in New Jersey is $42,248.

And so, New Jersey ends up paying Kentucky`s bills at the federal
treasury. Without that huge flow of federal money into Kentucky, from the
states that really pay for the federal government, the donor states like
New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, the 13 donor states, without that
wonderful, generous gift from New Jersey and those other states to
Kentucky, Kentucky would be a very sad place to live. But it is not.

Kentucky is a wonderful place to live. And it is a beautiful place.
And it is a wonderful place to live because this federal wealth sharing.
This federal wealth spreading system works so well.

And the richer states don`t go around saying resentful things about
the poorer states who can`t fend for themselves without infusing money into
them, unless and until a rank ignorant senator from one of those states
starts complaining about federal disaster relief money going to a state
like New Jersey. Then a guy like Chris Christie is not going to be very
careful about what it says about Kentucky or its senator. He is going to
teach them a lesson first and worry about their feelings later.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTIE: I got nothing personal against senator Paul. If we
disagree on certain issues we disagree, you know. It seeming his responses
seems to be he has something personal against me, but that`s OK. Just get
lie on that front.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Today, Rand Paul decided he was afraid to get in that
line, afraid of even another day of fighting with Chris Christie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: We are going to have t patch things up. If we can sit down,
I`m inviting him for a beer, any time he would like to come down and sit at
the pub right around the corner from the Senate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Have you heard anything on that invite?

PAUL: Excuse me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: Have you heard anything from the invite?

PAUL: It has not been formalized, I just thought of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: That`s how afraid he was. There is Rand Paul on live TV,
desperately trying to think of a way to get cozy with Chris Christie. And
how does he do it? How cozy do you think he really wants to get?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: I think with governor Christie, it has gotten a little too
personal, so we`re willing to kiss and make up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Yes, Rand, good luck with trying to kiss Chris Christie.

I happen to have right here, Chris Christie`s reaction to your kissing
proposal. Said this tonight on a New Jersey radio station.

I`m running for re-election in New Jersey I don`t really have time for
that at the moment.

So Rand, you will be lucky if you get a hand shake. And if you do get
to shake his hand on Republican presidential debate stages it will be
before and after he beats the living heck out of you in those debates.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: The campaign for mayor here in New York city couldn`t get
nuttier, right? Sorry, it did. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: It couldn`t get crazier but it did, Anthony Weiner`s
campaign spokesperson has apologized for a string of curse words aimed at a
campaign intern who wrote "the New York Daily News" page one story about
working inside in the Weiner campaign.

Olivia Nuzzi writes. It has been reported that Weiner had difficulty
hiring veteran operatives. His communications director last worked as the
press secretary for the New Jersey state education commissioner. There
were a lot of short resumes around the office, campaign director Barbara
Morgan explained her feelings in a conversation with hunter Walker of
talking points memo.

I`m dealing with like stupid -- you know what, everyone at home, you
are going to have to do some reading here, sorry, but you serious radio
listener in the car. But this stuff I can`t say who make it on the cover
of "the Daily News" even though they signed nondisclosures. And by the
way, I tried to fire her but I gave her a second chance.

OK, read everybody at home, nice glamour shot on the cover of the
daily news. Man, see if you ever get a job in this town again. On Nuzzi`s
descriptions of the Morgan campaign, says it is all stuff you`re going to
have to read on your screens at home, and bleep it at home, too.

Last night, Morgan sent this apology to NBC. In a moment of
frustration, I used inappropriate language in what I thought was an off the
record conversation. It was wrong, and I`m very sorry which was what I
said tonight when I called and E-mailed Olivia to apologize. Olivia Nuzzi
responded on twitter as to Barbara Morgan`s apology, of course I accept it.
Nuzzi`s description of herself on twitter now says a thing I`m not going to
say, but it is on your screen there.

Meanwhile, Anthony Weiner was asked about staying in the race. This
was part of a seven minute energetic response he gave.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTHONY WEINER, NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: I`m not going to go
into the corner and curl up, because somebody found out something
embarrassing. You see what is going on here today? If you become mayor of
the city of New York, you have to (INAUDIBLE) every single day. People
saying to you, you know what, you did something we don`t like, (INAUDIBLE),
change your mind, back out, quit, that is not the kind of mayor I`m going
to be. You know who I just had to vote for? Anthony Weiner. I have good
ideas. I decided that I have shown a level of independence standing in
front of you today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining me now for an exclusive interview is Hunter
Walker, national affairs reporter for "Talking Points."

OK, Hunter, she says it was off the record when she was saying all of
those f-ing words to you.

HUNTER WALKER, THE NATIONAL AFFAIRS REPORTER: Well, first off, thank
you for having me. And I am also glad you handled --

O`DONNELL: This is On the Record, by the way.

HUNTER: Yes, this is On the Record. And I`m glad you handled reading
through that conversation, because I know that is not HBO and I didn`t
really know what we are going to do.

O`DONNELL: I would love to read the real words, but this is family
show.

HUNTER: Yes. So you know, what I can say is that it was definitely
on record.

O`DONNELL: Yes.

HUNTER: We have had two senior editors from our organization who
scrutinized every aspect of this story. And there is no question it was an
On the Record conversation.

O`DONNELL: You know, I would expect no less, frankly, a reaction from
inside the campaign and I would expect those reactions to be filled with
profanity. The whole, exactly, which words you use and which words
demeaning to women you might use, I think would be different, I don`t think
she has to go there. But I`m not surprised or bothered by that. And she
seems to have handled it reasonably well, Barbara Morgan, the one who kind
of went wild with you. She said she did this tweet. Not my best day
yesterday, should have known better, been better, got pay off and there is
the picture of the $100 bill and the swearing jar. But it has got to be
just madness at the Weiner campaign, at the staff level, it seems like.

HUNTER: Yes, you know, that is one of the things I think was really
interesting about this story. It was kind of a window into the tense
atmosphere you have right now in the Weiner campaign. And over the
weekend, you have -- it`s at the campaign manager leave. According to
Nuzzi`s story, that was because Weiner lied to him about the timing of the
sexting scandal. And you got to keep in mind, this was a campaign that
prior to this, you know, latest scandal, was seen as having difficulty
attracting talent. Was seen as having trouble hiring.

O`DONNELL: Wonder why. Yes.

Now, do you have any assessment of the intern story as she told it to
"the Daily News?" Are you in a position to evaluate the credibility of
that?

HUNTER: Not really, you know. We do know there was at least one
departure. I tried to reached out to a lot of people on the Weiner
campaign to get a better sense of this and most of them didn`t want to talk
on record.

O`DONNELL: You know, because a lot of people talk about what is
really going on in campaign. The thing is that everything in her story
made sense, you know. You can`t really corroborate it. But it would make
sense that the Weiner campaign would have trouble attracting top tier
talent.

HUNTER: Well, it certainly, you know, I did a story a while ago where
I reached out to all of these campaigns and found that, you know, a lot of
them had these top flight political operatives, veteran in presidential
campaigns, you know, the Senate. And the Weiner campaign stuff was on the
surface already thinner than you were seeing anywhere else. And I think,
you know, regardless of the substance of each of Nuzzi`s claims on the mere
fact you had an intern leaking like this is a bad sign.

O`DONNELL: Hunter Walker, the man in the middle of the Weiner
campaign stuff war, thank you very much for joining us tonight on the
exclusive interview. Appreciate it.

HUNTER: Thanks for having me.

O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.

END

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