updated 8/20/2013 12:01:27 PM ET 2013-08-20T16:01:27

ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
August 19, 2013

Guests: Ben Jealous, Ryan Grim, Hooman Majd, Avik Roy, Ezra Roy, Barbara Buono


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening. From New York, I`m Chris
Hayes. Tonight on ALL IN, it`s all-out war in the battle over the policy
of racial profiling known as stop and frisk. Ben Jealous of the NAACP will
be here in just a moment. Also tonight, Chris Christie`s wild weekend. On
Friday night, the governor went hard right, and he came back today, a
Monday morning, moderate. But we see what you`re doing, Chris Christie.

Plus if you`re into secret government documents acknowledging stuff
you sort of already maybe thought you knew, it`s been a cool few days.
Last week we saw an acknowledgement that Area 51 exists and this weekend an
acknowledgement the CIA really did orchestrate a coup in 1953. That is
coming up.

We begin tonight with stop-and-frisk and racial profiling front and
center and dominating the national stage, despite or perhaps because of a
multi-front PR offensive being waged in defense of the New York Police
Department`s policy, an offensive which began last week in response to a
judge finding the NYPD`s stop-and-frisk violated the constitutional rights
of people of color in New York.

It intensified this weekend when NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly, who
remains a top candidate for the head of the Department of Homeland Security
appeared on "MEET THE PRESS" to defend his record.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GREGORY, NBC HOST: If a program like stop-and-frisk is
abandoned, will people die?

RAY KELLY, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Well, I think no question about it,
violent crime will go up. And again, this is not a program. This is
something that`s integral to policing. This happens throughout America in
any police jurisdiction. You have to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That appearance coincided with a predictably defensive
editorial by Mayor Michael Bloomberg in "The Washington Post," in which the
mayor took turns defending stop-and-frisk and attacking "The Washington
Post" itself, and others for criticizing the practice saying, quote, "the
men and women who protect our city from criminals and terrorists deserve
better than to have their integrity impugned in a courtroom or a newspaper,
especially when the facts are so clearly on their side."

Even today speaking at a press conference, touting the largest gun
seizure in New York history, both men looked to play up the role of stop-
and-frisk in getting guns off the street.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Wiretap conversations from
this investigation show that one of the gun traffickers` biggest concerns
was stop, question, frisk.

KELLY: Campbell didn`t want to risk it being found by New York police
and is heard saying, quote, "Yes. I`m in Charlotte now. I can`t take them
to my house, to my side of town, in Brownsville. We got, like,
whatchamacallit, stop-and-frisk."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Mayor Bloomberg and Commissioner Kelly doubling down and
repeating the same arguments over and over again in defense of stop-and-
frisk is not having the intended impact.

This weekend, on the very same "MEET THE PRESS," Trayvon Martin`s
mother, Sybrina Fulton, made the connection that between the suspicion that
drives stop-and-frisk and the suspicion that ended up taking the life of
Trayvon Martin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SYBRINA FULTON, TRAYVON MARTIN`S MOTHER: You have to give the police
officers the right direction. You can`t give people the authority whether
a civilian or police officers the right to just stop somebody because of
the color of their skin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Back in New York City, front-runner in the mayoral raise, Bill
de Blasio catapulted into first place largely because of his opposition to
stop-and-frisk. And this morning he unveiled his second ad on the topic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL DEBLAZIO, NYC MAYORAL CANDIDATE: There are hundreds of thousands
of New Yorkers who`ve never experienced stop-and-frisk. (Inaudible) talked
to Dante many times about the fact that someday he will be stopped.
Parents all over the city are having that conversation with their kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bill de Blasio, the only candidate to end the
stop-and-frisk era that targets minorities.

DEBLAZIO: I wish everyone could see through the eyes of every other
parent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Bill de Blasio is, of course, in an uncommon position for a
white man having a son who will likely be stopped and frisked by the NYPD.

That`s not true of Michael Bloomberg. Although in a small but
amazingly revealing moment, he, quote, conceded to "The New Yorker`s" Ken
Auletta, "If I had a son who was stopped, I might feel differently about
it."

Joining me now is Ben Jealous, president and CEO of the NAACP. And
Ben, you heard Ray Kelly and Michael Bloomberg saying the big gun seizure
today was thanks partly to stop-and-frisk. You want to see guns get off
our street.

Why are you standing in the way of this effective gun control measure
that is being done in New York City to make the streets safer here?

BEN JEALOUS, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NAACP: Well, because quite frankly,
effective police work focused on behavior is what gets guns off the street.
Stop-and-frisk doesn`t. You know, in 2011, we had about 700,000 stop-and-
frisks in the city, 680,000. And they pulled about 700 guns off the
street.

That means that 99.9 percent of the stop-and-frisks didn`t yield any
guns. If you want to get 700 guns off the street, well, you can do it
through a big seizure like they did today or you can do it by an effective
gun buyback program.

And either way, you would be much more effective than the amount of
hours it takes, if you can imagine, to do 700,000 stop-and-frisks,
sometimes involving one cop, sometimes involving multiple cops.

HAYES: NAACP is, of course, a national organization, oldest civil
rights organization in the U.S. You have got chapters everywhere.

Why are you so focused on New York City and stop-and-frisk? Is this
bigger?

For folks that are watching who don`t live in New York City, is this
bigger than New York City?

JEALOUS: Yes, this is the biggest racial profiling program in the
country, biggest local racial profiling in the country, maybe in the world.
Mayor Bloomberg has become its biggest evangelist. He actually tried to
get the mayor of San Francisco to replicate his program. Back then he was
saying it was a program. Now he`s trying to switch PR tactics.

The mayor said thank you but no because it is just a phenomenal waste
of resources and it`s not effective. I mean, just break this down, Chris.
You kind of roll the tape back a bit.

Back in 2002, as Kelly was taking over, he was very clear that he saw
stop-and-frisk as dubious. He was very clear that actually he was against
racial profiling. He`d come out of U.S. Customs where he`d been very
effective in increasing the productivity of searches by Customs by ending
racial profiling.

He also said that you can`t really take credit for a drop in crime,
that it was like taking credit for an eclipse of the moon. And he, of
course, was referring to his predecessor, Bill Bratton. Bill Bratton,
three-quarters of the drop in homicides in New York City since its high
point in the early 1990s --

HAYES: Happened during that period.

JEALOUS: Yes, happened during that period.

HAYES: So, Ben, let me ask you this. You raise the specter of Ray
Kelly. Ray Kelly has been a very stalwart defender of his department`s
approach, believes I think completely genuinely he`s saving people`s lives.
He`s saving black and brown people`s lives. He has been floated as
possible head of DHS.

Given this policy and how associated with it, how stalwart a defender,
what do you think of the possibility of Ray Kelly being nominated to head
DHS?

I think that it is possible he gets nominated. I think if he gets
nominated, he`ll face the fiercest opposition from the civil rights
community that any person put forward by President Obama ever has.

It will be vocal and outspoken because he has chosen to be vocal and
outspoken about racial profiling. I`m not sure that, frankly, he really
believes in this. At the very least, he was against racial profiling
before he was for if. He thought stop-and-frisk was dubious before he
became its biggest champion. And --

HAYES: Well, he`s definitely -- there`s been a trajectory. There`s
been some movement. I`m willing to grant that he genuinely believes that.

Ben Jealous from the NAACP. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

JEALOUS: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Joining me now is Ryan Grim, MSNBC contributor, Washington
bureau chief for the "Huffington Post."

Ryan, you have Ray Kelly, who`s the head of New York City`s Police
Department, which is a big job, on Sunday shows talking about stop-and-
frisk as a central issue, and I`m just curious, what was your read of the
political subtext of those appearances?

RYAN GRIM, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF FOR " HUFFINGTON POST": You know,
he`s in a difficult position here because, you know, he`s been floated now
for a long time as a likely pick here.

I know Obama tends to leave people out there for a long time. It
happened to Susan Rice. It happened to Larry Summers. And it`s difficult.
He`s most associated with stop-and-frisk, but like Ben Jealous said, he
might not actually believe in it, but because he`s so associated with it,
he just has to come out and say it.

I thought it was awfully revealing of kind of where the media lead is,
the way that David Gregory came out and said, will this lead to more people
dying? He essentially was baiting Ray Kelly to say if you change this
policy, you will have blood on your hands. He sort of took the bait but
didn`t exactly go there.

He knows he`s in a really tough spot because this is such a
controversial issue nationally. It doesn`t -- it doesn`t wear as well
nationally. If New York were the only city in the world, and I know a lot
of New Yorkers often think that it is, then maybe you`d think, oh, there
was stop-and-frisk and crime came down so stop-and-frisk must have driven
crime down.

But Washington, we don`t do this. You don`t get asked for your
papers, you don`t get stopped by cops when you`re walking down the street
in Washington and crime has plummeted here.

So how do you explain that if you`re Ray Kelly?

HAYES: And what I think is fascinating right now -- and I`m curious
what you think of this from your perch in Washington, is that we have seen
I think in the wake of Trayvon Martin`s death and the acquittal of George
Zimmerman, the Florida dream defenders down in Florida, Ray Kelly, Michael
Bloomberg, mayoral race and the judge`s decision and the president`s
comments on this, this remarkable confluence, unlike any I`ve ever seen
that has put this issue, our criminal justice system, racial profiling
within it, its disproportionate effect on black and brown people, right in
the center of the national debate. Is it being felt in Washington where it
has, in my opinion, for years, been completely absent?

GRIM: Yes, it very much is and it really is for the first time in
more than 20 years, because, you know, Republicans ran effectively, you
know, through the late `60s and `70s and into the `80s, painting Democrats
as soft on crime.

So they did the same thing they did with welfare reform. They said,
we`re not going to win this issue, let`s just throw them under the bus.
They got really tough on crime.

You know, Joe Biden was really kind of the leading drug warrior in the
Senate, both Republican and Democratic. And that kind of took the issue
off the table and instead of there being a debate about it, it was who was
tougher. Who could get more, you know, who could rough more people up, who
could be more in favor of more police on the streets who would give them
more military-grade weapons --

HAYES: Longer sentences.

GRIM: Exactly.

HAYES: This is the thing, this is the key truth, Ryan, is that if an
issue in Washington is not being debated by Democrats and Republicans, it
ceases to exist. No matter much effect it has on the lives of millions of
Americans.

MSNBC contributor Ryan Grim. Thank you so much.

GRIM: Thank you.

HAYES: Our latest installment of "I see you politician, who`s trying
to get away with something" features the governor of New Jersey, Chris
Christie, who spent the past few days probably hoping no one noticed what
he did on Friday night and everyone noticed what he did on Monday morning.
That`s coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Governor Chris Christie has tried to pull off a hell of a
three-card Monte on New Jersey voters, national Republican primary voters
and the national local press. Check it out.

Today Governor Christie signed A3371 into law, a bill that bans
licensed therapists from attempting so-called gay conversion therapy on
minors.

There are no cameras or photographers present, but the governor
released a statement saying, "The American Psychological Association has
found efforts to change sexual orientation can pose critical health risks
including but not limited to depression, substance abuse, social
withdrawal, decreased self-esteem and suicidal thoughts.

"I believe that exposing children to these health risks without clear
evidence of benefits that outweigh these serious risks is not appropriate.
Based upon this analysis, I signed this bill into law."

Now, that`s a perfectly good thing to do. It shouldn`t be a difficult
decision, since minors should not be subjected to something that the
American Psychological Association is basically calling child abuse.

But OK. That a boy, Chris Christie. This is, after all, what we
might expect from a governor for a state that went for President Obama by
17 points in the last election.

This past Friday, however, another Chris Christie was at work and that
Chris Christie did something after 6:00 pm in the summer on a Friday when
all the reporters had gone for the weekend. That Chris Christie vetoed a
ban on a military sniper rifle, the Baretta .50 caliber long-range rifle.
Here`s the big military rifle, a weapon that has no plausible civilian use.
It`s more or less a war toy for amateur gun enthusiasts.

The ban was one previously called for, wait for it, Chris Christie
himself, last April. But now Christie says the bill goes too far by
prohibiting current owners from keeping their guns. Or it could be that a
group called Pro-Gun New Hampshire, interesting state, rallied out-of-state
gun supporters to push Christie to veto the bill with 2016 in mind.

This is the Chris Christie dance, and it`s the one we will get to see
as he runs for re-election this year in a state with lots of liberals but
positions himself with conservatives ahead of 2016, but keep this in mind,
as soon as Election Day hits in November, if Chris Christie wins the second
term, there will be no immediate need to strike such a balancing act.

No New Jersey liberals to be concerned about. Freaky Friday will not
be followed by moderate Monday.

Joining me now is Barbara Buono, Democratic state senator, who`s a
candidate for governor of New Jersey.

Senator, what do you think about these two bills? The first bill, the
bill the governor signed today and the bill on Friday he vetoed?

N.J. STATE SENATOR BARBARA BUONO (D): Well, you know, over the
weekend the governor really, governor straight-talk as he likes to portray
himself really came clean, and he portrays himself as a social moderate.

But really the only thing that is motivating him is his singular
attempt to become the Republican nominee for President of the United
States. And so on Friday, profiles in courage, he decides to veto gun
bills that, as you said, he actually came out in support of.

HAYES: Let me push back on that. If that`s the case, the only thing
that`s motivating him is to become the nominee in 2016, why do we get
today`s bill banning this practice, which is not going to curry favor with
Republican primary voters?

BUONO: He`s trying to thread the needle. You`ll see that when he --
I think it was very telling when he was questioned by reporters on this
bill when it first came out.

They said, well, what do you think of gay conversion? And his initial
reaction, unfiltered, authentic Christie reaction was, I need to know more
about it. Well, what more do you need to know, Chris Christie? Gay and
conversion, you put those two words together. It`s about punishing our
children, it`s about trying to convince our children they`re not what they
are.

HAYES: So you`re saying this was a calculation, it was a political
calculation.

BUONO: Everything he does is a political calculation.

HAYES: Well, he`s a politician. You`re a politician, too.

BUONO: It`s true. But his calculations are to the detriment of the
people of New Jersey. One difference is that he is driven by his singular
ambition to become the nominee for President of the United States and the
people of New Jersey are going to be left behind. You can see it in
everything he does.

If you`re watching, he vetoed women`s health funding. He vetoed
funding for Planned Parenthood. It was a purely --

HAYES: And yet New jersey voters love him. His approval ratings are
very high. He`s doing very well. The people, the political analysts, I
don`t like to predict anything, say he`s cruising to re-election, that
you`re not going to beat him.

So then what`s the problem?

Are New Jersey voters getting hoodwinked?

Do they not realize what they`re getting in Chris Christie?

BUONO: Well, you know, people in New Jersey and in general, they
don`t focus on the election until after Labor Day traditionally.

When you talk to people and they realize, when they know that because
of this governor, we have property taxes that have gone up 20 percent, we
have one of the highest rates of unemployment in the nation. The highest -
-

HAYES: Extremely high.

BUONO: -- in the region. In fact, under this governor, we`re one of
the worst states to do businesses. Our rankings have actually dropped as a
good place to do business. This is a governor who tries to portray himself
as a social moderate but he`s anything but. He`s anti-marriage equality,
anti-choice, anti-pay equity. He called it senseless bureaucracy.

But people are struggling in New Jersey under the crushing burden of
property taxes; 400,000 people are out of work. They don`t have time to
focus on the election yet.

HAYES: OK. Are you going to do e events with Cory Booker?

BUONO: Actually we already have. Cory and I have done a walking tour
of Newark. Cory has been a great validator.

HAYES: Are New Jersey Democrats fighting hard enough against Chris
Christie, or have they rolled over?

BUONO: I would say the Democratic Party is fractured in New Jersey.
There definitely is an ideological schism in the Democratic Party, and,
yes, I think that that has been problematic.

HAYES: Meaning they have not fought him hard enough?

Are they co-opted by Christie?

BUONO: Let me just say this. I have always done -- let`s just put it
this way. I ran against the political bosses when I first ran for the
assembly. People said I`d never win and I did. I did the same for the
Senate. Yes, I ruffled a few feathers, but I will always stand up for what
believe in.

There are those who, for them, politics is transactional. That`s not
who I am. I will always stand up for the working people of New Jersey.
Those are the people that this governor has left behind and his policies
hurt him.

HAYES: Josh Barro, "Business Insider," a friend of mine, writing
about your public schedule this weekend said you`re not doing enough public
events.

Are you campaigning hard enough for this?

BUONO: Oh, my. I was actually fundraising in other states other than
New Jersey. Had private events I go to that just are not open to the
press. If they`re not open to the press, they`re not necessarily listed on
the public schedule.

But rest assured I`m out of the house from 8:00 am till 10:00 or
11:00 at night.

HAYES: How is fundraising coming?

BUONO: It`s more difficult in New Jersey than it is outside of New
Jersey, I will say that.

HAYES: And do you think that`s because people are scared of Chris
Christie?

BUONO: All I can tell you is what people say to me. There are those
that say to me that they are afraid to contribute because he is
retaliatory, that he will seek retribution. When Chris Christie was first
elected back in 2010, I was the majority leader, first woman majority
leader. And the Republican senators used to talk to me. And I remember
seeing a Republican senator come out of Chris Christie`s office, visibly
shaken and perspiring and saying, "You know, I shouldn`t be treated this
way."

He really -- it`s not about respect. It`s about fear and loathing.

HAYES: Democratic State Senator Barbara Buono, strong words about New
Jersey Governor Chris Christie.

Thank you very much.

BUONO: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: What the CIA releasing redacted documents has to do with the
currently unfolding crisis in Egypt, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Here`s a secret. You`re not going to see this anywhere else.

You want to know what`s really driving the White House approach to
dealing with the chaos unfolding in Egypt right now?

One theory being floated on Egyptian state television this week by a
former constitutional court justice involves President Obama`s brother
being one of the coordinators and founders of a Muslim Brotherhood
investment.

The idea being that somehow the President of the United States is
through blood relations a secret Muslim Brotherhood supporter, an idea so
daft, I don`t even think it would clear the editorial standards of Michelle
Malkin.

Almost 1,000 people have been killed just since last week in the
escalating conflict between what are now the country`s ruling military
forces and supporters Mohammed Morsi, the Muslim Brotherhood leader who was
ousted from power last month.

Amid all that, it is important to note that pretty much everyone who
is engaged in this fight in Egypt right now is convinced utterly that the
United States is already secretly aiding their enemies.

Mark Lynch of "Foreign Policy" magazine took note of the astonishing
level, omnidirectional, anti-American sentiment, writing, quote, "Even
longtime observers of Egyptian rhetoric have been taken aback by the
vitriol and sheer lunacy, the current wave of anti-American rhetoric. The
rhetoric spans the political spectrum denouncing the United States as
politically useful to every Egyptian faction."

It`s easy to look at that kind of stuff and dismiss it, oh, it`s just
the wacky conspiracy theories of the Arab street, the people in that region
are addicted to anti-Americanism.

But then we get news like we got today to remind us all why conspiracy
theories are so powerful.

The CIA declassified a document showing that, 60 years ago they did,
in fact, help engineer a coup that overthrew the democratically elected
government of Iran, quote, "a military coup that overthrew then-Prime
Minister Mosaddegh and his National Front cabinet was carried out under CIA
direction as an act of U.S. foreign policy."

As this network`s own contemporaneous coverage shows, Mosaddegh, the
head of a democratically elected government, was nonetheless regarded by
the U.S. as a sinister and dangerous character, subject to communist
influence.

Here`s a report from the -- and I`m not making this up -- Camel News
Caravan, a news program sponsored by Camel cigarettes that aired on NBC
just weeks before the CIA engineered coup that ousted then-prime minister
of Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iran`s Premier Mosaddegh, who creates strength
through weakness, has accomplished what Hitler and Stalin could not. He
received 99.9 percent of the vote in a carefully managed referendum.

When weeping, fainting, bedridden old Mosaddegh has trouble with the
Majles or parliament, he goes to the people for a referendum to have it
dissolved. There is no secret ballot. In fact, people supporting
Mosaddegh vote in one place; people opposed vote in another.

Understandably, few oppose the skinny old man who controls the army
and the police, and the supervisors at the opposition voting place have
nothing to supervise.

Final returns in Tehran, 101,396 votes to dissolve the dually elected
parliament, 67 votes against. Mosaddegh, who is not a Communist, has won
with communist support. Can he now get rid of his dangerous new friends?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That`s what the run-up to the CIA engineered 1953 Iranian coup
looked like on American television.

We knew for years the U.S. played a role in that coup. But only now,
60 years after the fact, do we know officially from the CIA itself that,
yes, they decided to get rid of the head of a democratically elected
government in Iran and help to reestablish the shah, who is sort of a out-
of-touch plutocrat with a completely brutal secret police force at his
disposal.

And it was so despised in every sector of Iranian society he was
ultimately overthrown in a revolution in 1979 that led to the rule of
Ayatollah Khomeini and the Iran we know today.

So let`s keep all of this in mind as we watch the crisis in Egypt
unfold.

Joining me now is Hooman Majd, NBC news contributor, author of the
upcoming book "The Ministry of Guidance Invites You Not to Stay: An
American Family in Iran."

Obviously Iran and Egypt, very different places, different language,
different histories. But in broadly the region in the Middle East in which
the U.S. has had this outsized role for 50 or 60 years.

As you watch the rhetoric coming out of Egypt and the American
involvement in there, given the Iranian experience, how do you kind of make
sense of how people are viewing the Americans as an actor in that region?

HOOMAN MAJD, NBC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it`s what you said earlier
about conspiracy theories gaining a lot of traction in the Middle East or
people thinking, all these wacky Arabs or the wacky Persians they believe
anything.

The conspiracy theories often come true at least from the perspective
of Iranians or Arabs or Turks or anyone else who has been following
American involvement in the region. I mean, for years and years ever,
since my childhood, we knew the CIA and the British -- by the way, CIA and
the MI6 conspired to overthrow Mossadegh and bring Reza Shah back to power.

Everyone knew this and there are books that have been written about
it. And, unless you were an American, who was really interested in Iran,
you kind of didn`t know about it or you thought, "Oh, come on! That`s just
a conspiracy theory. We wouldn`t do that."

This really just tells you, as a fact, now, that they did. They`re
admitting it. Although the U.S. did kind of express some regret for some
involvement. Madeleine Albright did back then.

HAYES: The president sort of mentioned it in his Cairo speech.

MAJD: He mentioned it in his Cairo speech, exactly. But, what is --
The thing that`s really interesting is the relation between what happened
in 1953 and the hostage crisis in 1979, which all Americans know about --

HAYES: Of course.

MAJD: -- And, especially after the movie "Argo" --

HAYES: Right.

MAJD: -- more Americans -- young Americans now know about it. And,
how those two things are completely related. And, how that came to happen
after, you know --

HAYES: And, yet we know -- we don`t know the -- the average American
does know about the hostage crisis.

MAJD: Yes, that is reality.

HAYES: We have been through it.

MAJD: Yes.

HAYES: Not necessarily what happened with Mossadeq in 1953.

MAJD: Yes.

HAYES: And, I think there is something similar right now in Egypt,
which is the prehistory of 30 years of government apart from Mubarak is
known by every single Egyptian everywhere.

MAJD: Exactly.

HAYES: And, we are now watching this little sliver of history play
out and thinking why are they so mad at us?

MAJD: Why are they -- exactly. And, it goes on and on and on. I
mean, specifically with Iran, and we have had 34 years of no relations with
Iran. We have a nuclear crisis. We have all the kind of fights we have
with Iran. And, Iran is the big enemy.

And, it`s because of these two events. First the coup, then `79, the
hostage crisis. Not necessarily the revolution, itself, but certainly the
hostage crisis was related to that coup because Iranians were convinced
that the U.S. was going to do the same thing in 79. And, the way to stop
that was to take cover the embassy and initially we are going to keep the
hostages for --

HAYES: Correct.

MAJD: -- It became -- It is a longer discussion. It became a much
more politicized event. But, the two are very related. So, the reason
that the Americans want the Iranians to apologize for taking hostages is
the reason the Iranians want the Americans to apologize for the coup in the
first place.

So, these things are related and if you look at Egypt today or
anywhere in the world -- actually, anywhere in the third world, in the
developing world, where America has had an influence, whether it is South
America, Central America. Look at Venezuela. Look at -- you know, other
countries, not just the Middle East. There`s a deep, deep suspicion of
what American farm polls --

HAYES: And, sometimes the full picture of that is occluded to us as
we sit here in the U.S. NBC news contributor, Hooman Majd. Thanks so much
for your time.

MAJD: Thank you.

HAYES: We`ll be right back with #Click3.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: There is breaking news this evening and we are scrambling for
details. But, I can tell you at this moment is that it appears the Obama
family has a new dog. First lady Michelle Obama first tweeted a photo of
this new dog in and the White House followed up with video announcement.
It`s a girl dog. The name is Sunny. It`s a Portuguese water dog just like
the first dog, Bo. We will bring you more details as they become
available.

But, first I want to share three awesomest things on the internet
today. And, we begin with, of course, Quadrocopters. We love them here in
#Click3. Remote controlled super maneuverable high flying awesomeness.
They are everywhere these days often with an HD video camera attached
bringing us new and spectacular views of places like Niagara Falls, flying
high above the University of Notre Dame and Australia.

So, perhaps it is just a matter of time before we saw our first
Quadrocopter deployed by a wedding photographer to get that elusively
romantic low altitude fly-by shot. But, it takes a steady hand.

(VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Oh, the memories that will last forever. The stitches, they
will come out in a week or two. The photographer who posted the video to
youtube says no one was seriously injured. The bride and groom were
remarkably good natured about it and insisted he post the video for the
world to see.

The second awesomest thing on the internet today comes to us from buzz
feed. It`s the rally in support of Mayor Bob Filner of San Diego. Now, we
brought you the ongoing story of Bob Filner before. If you may remember,
he`s been charged by over a dozen women of committing all sorts of sexually
harassing behavior.

He has been accused of being a serial groper and recently took a leave
of absence to undergo two weeks of intense therapy, but still refuses to
step down. So, it is a bit amazing to see there was even a group of people
willing to publicly support the man. If you were wondering what kind of
snap things do you chant at a pro-bob Filner rally?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Due process.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Due process.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Oh, yes! Due process is good, but you know what`s even
better? Personal testimonials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAXINE SHERARD, PHD, FORMER CANDIDATE OF STATE ASSEMBLY: I have not
been the recipient of sloppy kisses. And, I have met Mr. Filner on many
occasions. There are others who are, but I`ve never had that opportunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: So, there you have it. And, finally, understand the third
awesomest thing on the internet today, you need to go all the way back to
February 2004 when season 2, episode 5 of the Chappelle`s show first aired
on "Comedy Central." In that episode, Charlie Murphy foretold the
Hollywood story about the time he and his crew played basketball with the
Prince and the Revolution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE MURPHY, AMERICAN COMEDIAN ACTOR: You know, you never judge a
book by its cover. Prince crack a ball, man!

WAYNE BRADY, AMERICAN COMEDIAN ACTOR: Play ball.

MURPHY: He was crossing pass. He crossed here. He was getting
rebounds like Charles Barkley. Smashing his ass. Shoot it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Oh, Prince and the Revolution won the game and inexplicably
brought Murphy and his crew back inside for pancake breakfast. Fast
forward nine years and the actual artist, Prince, using the handle
@thirdeyegirl has joined twitter.

Not only as the purple one using twitter to publish selfies like this
one, "I am Prince." Friday he nearly broke the internet when he tweeted
"Game Blouses" along with a youtube link to the new single "Breakfast can
wait." The albums are features Dave Chappelle as Prince holding a tray of
pancakes. Here`s part of the song.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I ain`t trying to make you blush but I wanted to
tell you, I think you`re great. I know you`re late, but I need another
taste. Breakfast can wait.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That`s not a joke. That`s the actual album cover of the
actual song. A callback nine years in the making. You can download that
little song at thirditunes.com. Once again, "Game Blouses," Prince Wins.
You can find all the links for tonight`s #Click3 on our website,
allinwithchris.com. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: OK. Here`s everything you need to understand what`s going on
in the Republican Party right now. In 2012, the republicans got their
butts handed to them, a sort of electoral drubbing that occasions a lot of
thumb sucking, think pieces and self-reflection about what went wrong.
And, the basic incenses coming out of that was a party need to do better
with emerging demographic groups; Latinos, young people.

Those groups that are making up a larger and larger share of the
electorate. It is all pretty straightforward. But, here`s the problem.
Each second that ticks by, and every day that passes puts us further from
the memory of 2012 and one day closer towards the midterms and one day
closer to the beginning of the 2016 Republican Presidential Primary, which
means as I speak to you, as the moments flutter by, the incentives are
slowly shifting.

So, that your average republican politician, concerned chiefly with
his or her political future, cannot help but conclude that the smart
logical rational thing to do is to pander by any means necessary to the
increasingly self-lathering conservative base. And, what the base wants is
what they already want, yes to Obama Care.

No matter how many people have to politely explain to them that ship
has sailed, no matter how many republican party elites and donors and
others warn them that threatening a shutdown or a default over defunding
Obama Care will be an unmitigated disaster politically, not to mention for
millions of people, though really who cares about them. They want it.
They want it.

And, the loudest voices they listen to want it. And, so, today we
have the heritage foundation. Unveiling its nine-city tour intended to
drum up support for defunding the president`s signature piece of
legislation. But, more importantly, there`s an internet mean.

The right wing institution launching a stop Obama Care Instagram
campaign. The Heritage`s President and former U.S. Senator, Jim DeMint.
Entrants include a fore wore looking Darrell Issa holding up a blank sign
and grumpy cat.

Heritage adding its own means of the mix. This gun totin` image from
the movie "RIPD." That is rest in peace department. We had to Google it.
In case you didn`t catch it in the theaters, you are not alone. It was one
of the summer`s biggest Box Office flops.

Meanwhile, a former Republican operative now says his own medical
struggles have changed his views on the legislation. Clint Murphy, who
worked on John McCain`s 2008 Campaign has battled cancer and other issues
including sleep apnea.

Those experiences have prompted him to turn from Obama Care adversary
to supporter. When you say you`re against it, you`re saying you don`t want
people like me to have health insurance. But, of course, here`s the rub.
Clint Murphy isn`t going to get the hearing with the relatively small
committed group of dead enders, who the Ted Cruz`s of the world need to
cultivate support with to be plausible 2016 GOP nominees.

And, the defund Obama Care train rolls on faster and faster gathering
speed with every passing moment, headed towards a collision with political
reality and millions of sick and anxious people.

Joining me now is Avik Roy a former member of Mitt Romney`s health
care policy advisory group. Author of the "Apothecary" the former blog on
health care entitlement reform. I want to show you what Ron Paul said
about the government shutdown, because it was indicative of this problem to
me. He basically -- here`s what Fox News saying, "It`s a bad idea. We`ll
do it anyway." Check it out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL, (R) KENTUCKY REPRESENTATIVE: Well, I don`t think
shutting down the government is a good idea, but I do think that we were
elected, conservatives were elected to try to stop this overreach, this
government takeover of health care. If we do nothing, we`re just saying to
the president, "Hey, you get your way."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Is there any way -- you are in this lonely class of people,
conservative wonks. There`s like a little bit of --

AVIK ROY, AUTHOR OF "APOTHECARY" BOOK: Polite explainers we might
call them.

HAYES: Yes. You`re just in this little world and I think you do your
work with intellectual integrity. I think you believe what you believe in.
You actually -- you know the literature. But, the Avik Roys of the world,
like the Republican base is not reading the "Apothecary.

They`re not listening to whatever you say about like, "Here`s the way
to actually fit Obama Care, so it looks more conservative and actually gets
people the health care they want. They want to burn it to the ground. Is
there any way to convince them otherwise?

ROY: I think that even Mike Lee and Ted Cruz and those guys, why are
they pursuing the shutdown strategy? They have said it`s because once the
subsidies for Obama Care start, then there`s no turning back. Jim DeMint
had not been in the "Wall Street Journal." He said, we are rapidly
approaching the point of no return with Obama Care. So, if we held them to
those statements, then --

HAYES: But, here`s what I don`t understand about that. If the
program is as much a disaster as people on the right are warning it will
be, then I don`t understand why letting it to actually be implemented won`t
be self-refuting, right?

Even if the subsidies kick in and the whole thing is poorly engineered
and poorly executed as everyone on the right is telling me it`s going to
be, well then it will be a big policy disaster and the president is going
to take a political hit and the Democratic Party will, and the will deserve
to, if it actually doesn`t work for people. So, why not just let that go
forward?

HAYES: Some people have that view, if that`s exactly what should
happen. But, of course a law can be rewarding for some groups and
punishing for other groups is not necessary uniform in its effects, right?
And, so, I think the concern of a lot of people on the right is that well,
there will be some people who benefited.

The people who benefit from the insurance subsidies in particular.
But, the people who are not qualified for those subsidies, who might see
premium increases despite the law`s efforts to do otherwise. Those are the
people who are going to be concerned and it will be a train wreck for them.

HAYES: But if it train wreck for them, like -- if it is a train wreck
for them -- if you want to have a political cage match between two kinds of
voters. One is someone who is making just above poverty, working class
person who qualifies for a subsidy and one of them is a person with a lot
more money, who just saw their premiums jacked. Let me tell you who`s
going to win that political cage fight.

If the concern is about the politics of this, it`s going to be the
upper middle class person, who saw their premium jacked who`s going to make
their representative scream bloody murder in Washington, D.C. My feeling
is, this isn`t about policy, right? It`s about destroying the president or
it`s about taking a chunk of his hide out or it`s about just saying across
this line, "You shall not pass." As opposed to stepping it --

ROY: It`s definitely not that. So, there is a view. The view among
the base, I think the typical view of a base voter for the republicans is
we had a free market health care system before Obama Care was passed.
Obama Care was passed. It was a government takeover of the health care
system. And, that`s what we`ve got to stop because if we don`t, we`ve then
lost the war against big government.

HAYES: I must interject neither of those things are true. We didn`t
have a free market system before and this is not about a big government.

ROY: But, that`s the truth about -- I was simply --

HAYES: No. No --

ROY: -- I was simply reflecting.

HAYES: Right.

ROY: Yes. So, I think that is exactly the thing. And, so, what I
try to do when I am the polite explainer is to say, "We actually had a
heavily government-involved system to begin with." We have had once since
at least 1965, possibly before, arguably before. And, the affordable care
act is an incremental advance of that, but it is not the government
takeover -- you know, if you can`t look at it in isolation, you have to
look at this whole, you know --

HAYES: What do people --

ROY: -- Eight-year trend.

HAYES: -- what do people say to you when you say that? Do you get
traction as being a polite explainer?

ROY: They are persuaded; but, then, you know, I`m doing so in
relatively small audiences, not to a hundreds of millions of people.
Right? So -- But, I do make -- I think when you show the data, the data is
very clear. If you look at, for example, government spending on health
care in the United States, it`s the fourth highest in the developed world -
- Fourth highest in the world, therefore.

HAYES: That is true.

ROY: There`s only three countries in the developed world that spend
more in terms of public spending per capita on health care in the United
States.

HAYES: Right.

ROY: And, that`s in 2010, before the --

HAYES: Before the affordable care act.

ROY: When I explain that I think people start to scratch their heads,
I say, "You know what? You`re on to something."

HAYES: I want to talk about what is the path from talking to a small
amount of people to millions of people for the conservative wonk Avik Roys`
of the world, and wonk Ezra Klein is going to join me and we`re going to
script to you a strategy to get you out of this little box, right when we
come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: All right. Joining me now is the editor of the one and only
wonk blog at the "Washington Post," MSNBC Policy Analyst, Ezra Klein.
Ezra, I wanted you to respond to Avik. And, this is my question to you.
As someone who follows this incredibly closely, is there enough time to
bridge the gap between perception and reality of what the affordable care
act is and represents in American politics in time to avert something
disastrous and catastrophic this fall when possibly republicans try to
force some kind of shutdown?

EZRA KLEIN, "THE WASHINGTON POST" COLUMNIST: I question your premise,
sir.

HAYES: Please.

KLEIN: Look, I don`t think that bridging the gap matters that much.
So, number one, to the republican shutdown threat. It`s not going to
happen. They don`t have the support in house. The start of elders in the
senate. The more rational minds from the senate, clearly seem to be -- I
would be very surprised.

It doesn`t mean it can`t happen, but if I was placing my bet now, I
would put a very, very, very low probability on the republican-led shutdown
over Obama Care. I just see it as fairly unlikely. Now, maybe this
prediction will have egg on my face in a couple months, but there it is.

The secondary part is about bridging this sort of broad perceptual
gap. Often contributes to, as much as he`s a good guy and wonk, I think
that it would be fair to say he emphasizes the negative and doesn`t always
give a balanced portrayal of the law. But, in a broad sense, I don`t think
this political conversation over the law matters very much.

Come October and come months after that, we are going to see the
actual law begin, and most people will never interface with something
called Obama Care. In California, they will see this thing called covered
California. In Washington state, it will be I think the Washington health
connector or something --

HAYES: But, wait. Let me -- let me --

KLEIN: -- And, it will either work for them and be affordable for
them or it won`t be.

HAYES: Right.

KLEIN: But, it won`t be about the political conversation.

HAYES: That I somewhat agree with which was the point I was trying to
make to Avik, right? Like, let it play out. If it`s as bad as you say it
is, then won`t it be terrible to president. But, I do think this. I do
think that there is a way that kind of narratives of disaster do get caught
up into the media universe.

And, Ezra, particularly because so few people interface with actually
the thing, itself, it does seem to me it would be possible that a media
narrative of disaster does get created even embedded by people who actively
want to see the thing fail to the point that you do create political --
real political backlash that then does have policy consequences because
people then in Washington are trying to fix something that isn`t actually
broken.

ROY: I think one thing to bring up there is that when you pass a law
on party lines, that tension, that dynamic is more present. If there`s --

HAYES: If they could have passed it with republican votes, everyone
would have loved it.

ROY: We can look at 2009 another time. But, I think just from an
objective from a political science standpoint, that`s the challenge, right?
Is that when you have one party that is opposed to the law and didn`t
support it to begin with, and has no stake in its success, and one part
does --

HAYES: Except for -- Can I say this?

ROY: Yes.

HAYES: Except for the stake of the human beings whose lives are on
the line --

ROY: Well --

HAYES: -- when you have people going out trying to get something not
to work. Ezra.

KLEIN: But, wait, you at some point have to eventually pass laws.
So, I mean, yes, it`s true. It would have been a good idea for the party
that was in power in 2009 to have tried to come to some compromise. I
mean, one of the things they maybe could have done is to base their health
care plan off of the health care passed by a prominent republican
presidential candidates --

(LAUGHING)

HAYES: Yes. Yes. Yes.

KLEIN: -- I mean this gets a little bit ridiculous. The republicans
refuse to come to the table to even deal with on a plan based on plans that
they themselves have proposed earlier. I am not saying every republican
loved every one of those plans. Clearly, a set of republican ideas were
involved in them, though.

And, then they say, "Well, this was a partisan play you passed, so we
can`t support it. But, look, it is completely the case, Chris. So, you
could have a media narrative. And, in fact, I almost assure you, you will
have a set of media narratives, based off very real implementation. My
guess is the affordable care act will not be a big boon and will be a net
negative for democrats in 2014. And, then just as happened in Medicare
Part "D," which was a very tough bill on a very tough rollout in its first
year, as the Bill gets on its feet, it begins delivering a fair number of
benefits --

ROY: Let me make a quick point here.

KLEIN: -- Actually become very important because it does become
essentially impossible to repeal, although it doesn`t become impossible to
reform or improve.

ROY: The morning consult did a poll, where they showed if you ask
people, 1,000 likely voters, what`s the biggest problem with the health
care system in America? 75 percent it was the cost of insurance. 11
percent said it was the uninsured.

HAYES: Right.

ROY: And, so will the affordable care act make insurance less
expensive? I think a lot of the evidence --

HAYES: It`s a big outstanding question. The other thing about that,
though, is if people don`t care about the uninsured, and it is possible
people don`t care about the uninsured, there are still tens of millions of
people living, who are living through absolutely unnecessary misery, and I
care about them.

ROY: And, I do too.

HAYES: And, I think a decent social contract and a decent society
should care about them. And, I`m happy that we`re all in this together and
we may get some of those people health insurance. Avik Roy, author of the
Forbes blog, "The Apothecary." MSNBC Policy Analyst Ezra Klein questioning
my premises. Thank you very much. That is "All In" for this evening. The
"Rachel Maddow Show" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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