updated 10/1/2013 12:11:23 PM ET 2013-10-01T16:11:23

ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
September 27, 2013

Guests: Robert Costa, Kenneth Shropshire, Ramogi Huma, Mike Pesca

CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

And tonight, not one, but two major foreign policy announcements have
me wondering if we are now seeing in action the president we elected in
2008, the one who ran on a platform, diplomacy over war. Rachel Maddow
joins me to discuss this coming up.

But tonight, we begin with House Republicans set to meet tomorrow
afternoon to map out a way forward on the continuing resolution to fund the
government with just three short days until the government shutdown.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JARED BERNSTEIN, ECONOMIST: It`s starting to look like we may be
having a harder time avoiding a shutdown.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: We are now three days, nine hours
away.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNBC: We have a resolution that the House is going to
be in over the weekend. Question is, can they get it done?

REP. JAN SCHAKOWSKY (D), ILLINOIS: Well, all on pins and needles,
I`m in a hostage situation right now.

REP. PETER WELCH (D), VERMONT: It`s totally up to John Boehner. At
certain point, he has to decide, does he continue to appease the Tea Party
wing which favors shutdown and default, or does he put a clean C.R. on the
floor?

HAYES (voice-over): The continuing resolution funding the government
is now officially out of the Senate and in order to avoid a government
shutdown, it`s up to House Republicans to now pass a spending bill.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, over the next
three day, House Republicans will have to decide whether to join the Senate
and keep the government open or shut it down.

HAYES: And as Democrats led by the president are pressing Speaker
Boehner for a clean bill that funds Obamacare, it looks like House
Republicans are taking directions from someone else.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: I view what`s critical is that the House
passed a measure that protects the American people from the harms that
Obamacare is causing.

HAYES: According to "The National Review`s" Robert Costa, Senator
Ted Cruz is continuing to press conservative members to revolt against
Boehner and strip the C.R. bill of Obamacare funding, thereby inviting a
shut down on Monday. In just three days, we will know if Ted Cruz is able
to complete his hostile takeover of the House of Representatives.

Now, let me tell you why you should be rooting for Cruz to win.

You see, there are two different deadlines approaching. One is
manageable. One is catastrophic. On September 30th, the government will
partially shut down if Congress does not pass a spending bill and that
would be bad. It would cost money and thousands of government workers
could be furloughed, but it has happened before and we can survive it.

On October 17th on the other hand, the government of the United
States of America will default if Congress does not raise the debt ceiling.
That would be unprecedented.

The consequences impossible to predict.

OBAMA: We don`t fully understand what might happen, the dangers
involved, because no Congress has ever actually threatened default. But we
know it would have a profound destabilizing effect on the entire economy.

HAYES: If the government does not shut down this Monday, the odds of
a default two weeks later shoot up and that`s why you should be rooting for
a government shutdown.

Imagine a government shutdown as an inoculation against the
possibility of a default. Yes, it will be a little painful, it will be
inconvenient, but it will be nothing compared to the consequences of
getting the full blown disease.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There, protected and it didn`t hurt a bit.

HAYES: In the U.S. government default, we will get the disease, but
if the Republican Tea Party Caucus wins the day and manages to bring about
a shutdown, the American people will be inoculated. The public will get to
see the consequences of GOP obstruction and possibly, just maybe, the House
GOP will get to see just how unpopular they really are.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Joining me now with the latest, Robert Costa, Washington,
D.C. editor for the conservative "National Review" and a CNBC contributor,
and the best source man in all of Washington with the House Republican
Caucus.

OK, meeting tomorrow, the ball is back in the House`s court. It got
passed out of the Senate for a clean resolution. What is the House going
to do?

ROBERT COSTA, NATIONAL REVIEW: Great to be here, Chris.

I just stepped over here from the Capitol and House leadership is
really flummoxed right now. They don`t really know how to proceed. They
want to maybe have a short-term C.R. to extend the debate. They just don`t
have the votes right now to get a clean C.R. through.

HAYES: Let`s just be clear, when you say they don`t have the votes,
they don`t have the votes in the Republican Caucus. If John Boehner would
go to the floor this minute and bring up a clean C.R., it would pass
because every Democrat would vote for it. And they would have enough
Republicans voting for it, it would pass. But if he does that, he risks
open full scale revolt, correct?

COSTA: He really does, Chris. And the problem for Boehner is, and
he has broken the Hastert Rule before, to allow Democrats to join with
Republicans to form a majority. But because as you mentioned in your
introduction, the pressure is so strong from the right, Senator Cruz is
actually huddling with House Republicans trying to pressure them to have a
standoff.

If he breaks the Hastert Rule with that Cruz pressure at the same
time, his power is very tenuous.

HAYES: OK. You had an incredible piece of reporting today and it
was about a phone call. Basically, John Boehner`s plan was get everybody
to swallow hard and just pass a clean continuing resolution and double down
and gear up for the fight on the debt ceiling. And then a bunch of Tea
Party members had a phone call with Ted Cruz.

What happened in that phone call?

COSTA: In that phone call, Ted Cruz said to the House conservatives,
don`t follow Speaker Boehner, have a real standoff right now on the C.R.

HAYES: People need to understand how unbelievably anomalous this is
for a freshman junior senator to be ripping votes in the House against the
leadership of his own party.

COSTA: Highly unusual.

HAYES: This never happens. I mean, Boehner must be losing his mind.

COSTA: Boehner, I hear, is fuming behind the scenes. Not just
because it`s Cruz pressuring him from the right, but because it`s Cruz
pressuring him from the Senate.

There`s a real frustration among the leadership that this freshman
senator, Ted Cruz, is trying to dictate strategy for the House.

HAYES: This is like me walking down the hall and telling Rachel`s
segment producers how to write their scripts. You do not do that. I mean,
this is -- you have to stay in your lane. I imagine there`s going to be
when they have the chance to extract their revenge on Ted Cruz, they`re
going to extract.

But in the short-term, do you think the odds of a shutdown have now
increased since the House Tea Party Caucus is balking at John Boehner`s
attempts to get a C.R. passed?

COSTA: I think very much a shutdown is on the table, unless Speaker
Boehner tells his conference that he`s willing to break the Hastert Rule to
pass a clean C.R., I think this whole thing could shut down.

HAYES: All right. I want to bring in Melissa Harris Perry, host of
her own show that airs weekends at 10:00 a.m. Eastern here on MSNBC. What
I think is fascinating here is looking at this in the context of Democratic
norms and we`re seeing norms fall all over the place. Ted Cruz, freshman
senator whipping House votes.

There was this great piece Ryan Lizza put up in "The New Yorker"
about the House suicide caucus. The term is Charles Krauthammer`s. It`s
not mine.

And it`s basically 80 members of the House who wrote a letter to
Boehner being like you`ve got to defund Obamacare. And, basically, what
you find about these votes is that they`re in district much whiter than the
country, older than the country, that are more likely to be located in the
South and that make, that cover about 15 percent of the nation`s
population.

And these are the people who appear to be essentially attempting to
dictate the agenda for the entire government.

MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST: Well -- I mean, we heard the
president today sort of come out and make this reasoned argument. Let`s
not hold our debt ceiling you know, hostage here and let`s not shut down
the government because, well, that`s bad and we`re not disagreeing about
much, we`re disagreeing about something that has been law, that has already
gone to the Supreme Court, all of that.

But I think more important is for us to recognize what happens as a
result of the very basic political reality that congressmen are single-
minded seekers of re-election and, right now, the kinds of districts in
this so many of these congresspersons are running, these Tea Party
congresspersons are the kinds of districts that reward this kind of
behavior, no matter what the kind of general good is.

HAYES: And reward something more than that.

I mean, Robert, what they`re rewarding also is we`re not just seeing
norms be upset in terms of what you ask for in exchange for debt ceiling
vote. We`re seeing norms of just how a caucus works. How leadership
interacts with rank and file. How the two Houses interact with each other.
I mean, this is all pretty unprecedented.

COSTA: It feels like I`m not only covering the end of the Republican
Party. The party`s still I live. I`m covering the end of power and
Boehner`s power is diminished. The earmarks are gone. The ability of
leadership to shape the discussion has diminished, and what you have now is
the conservative movement being really the center of gravity within the
entire discussion.

HAYES: He`s a speaker in the name only.

HARRIS-PERRY: Right, but this is part of why, this is a moment when,
for example, Democrats, liberals who might want to cheer the end of the
Republican Party should just pause and have a cup of water and relax,
because in fact, we want strong parties in this country. Initially, the
Founders did sort of indicate an interest against parties, but one of the
reasons parties grow up is in fact a good, strong party system protects
against the sort of brinksmanship that we are currently looking at.

And so, you know, this is John Aldridge, you know, why parties, why
do they emerge in the American concept? One of the reasons is in order to
serve the interest of the party members. But the other is to serve a
general interest. It`s why you have logrolling, it`s why you have the sets
of rules that you do so that what you want actually is a strong Boehner
because a strong Boehner keeps these kinds of interests in line.

HAYES: And what we see right now is a very weak Boehner.

HARRIS-PERRY: Exactly.

HAYES: We see him having exactly exercising no control over -- I
mean, essentially zero control over his own caucus and I wonder also what
this portends down the line for how this Congress behaves even after this
crisis. I mean, we have gone from crisis to crisis where at a certain
point, Robert, Boehner -- I mean, does Boehner actually fall at some point?
I mean, is there an actual coup where they call a new election or he has to
set down?

COSTA: I don`t think Boehner is going to have any kind of coup
attempt, but his power is very much suffering. But I think there`s a
larger story here, that Dr. Melissa Harris-Perry was mentioning, was that
when it comes to thinking about immigration reform moving ahead, does
Boehner have any kind of sway to move something forward? It`s all a game
of survival right now for the speaker and that has consequences.

HAYES: Yes, it has that`s a great point. It has substantive
consequences, right? Because he cannot -- unlike Nancy Pelosi, who was an
incredibly strong speaker and delivered vote after vote after vote, he
can`t deliver the vote for comprehensive immigration reform. Everyone
knows that.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s right. And so, you end up in this position
where you`re sort of cheering for the folks who used to be the renegades,
the John McCain`s who are now, sort of, who say, hey, yes, we disagree, but
there are ways in which we move forward, right?

So, you`ve got the sort of elder statesman in the Senate, John
McCain, against Cruz over there in the Senate. Part of what`s interesting
about what`s happening in the Senate is that the Senate is meant to protect
against this, right? These sorts of quirky personalities are supposed to
emerge in the House of Representatives that has, you know, relatively
smaller districts. The Senate is supposed to be the gentlemen`s game.

HAYES: And what we see now is in the Senate, they do not control the
party caucus. In the House, they do. And that is precisely the dispute
that we`re seeing play out in real time as you had essentially half of the
Republicans in the Senate vote for this clean C.R. today.

Robert, very quickly, are the Tea Party caucus people, those 80
members what Krauthammer called the "suicide caucus", are they essentially
at this point hoping for a shutdown? Do they think a shutdown would be a
good clarifying moment?

COSTA: Yes, that`s a good point, because very briefly, when I speak
to these conservatives in the House and Senate, they really believe if a
shutdown happens, they can force the president to cave or at least have
some concessions. That is a true belief. That`s just not some cynical
spin. That`s what they really believe.

HAYES: Right.

Yes, and that`s what I think and you were nodding your head during
that package. I`m rooting for a shutdown because I think you need to have
the tension get let out of the system on catastrophic terms, not like a
ceiling default.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes, I mean, I am rooting for adults governing with
those kind of broader interests at heart. But if we can`t have adults
governing with a broader interests at heart, then I agree, there is kind of
inoculating effect for the shutdown. But I think part of what we have to
say and, look, I get it.

I almost want the president to come out this afternoon and we`d be
like, all right, bring it, do that, shut that down, let`s see that, right?
But the reason you can`t is because the people most likely to be hurt are
the most vulnerable, right? And so, we know that from veterans to poor
people. Those are the most likely to be injured in this game of
brinksmanship, as always the most vulnerable Americans.

HAYES: And what I think is going to be interesting, Robert, is that
we will see how it plays.

I mean, that -- one of the things, there`s these kind of competing
conceptions of what the political reality that we would actually see play
out were a shutdown to happen.

Robert Costa from "The National Review", as always, a pleasure.

And, Melissa Harris-Perry -- you can catch her fantastic show,
weekends at 10:00 a.m. Eastern here on MSNBC.

Coming up --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE DOOCY, FOX NEWS: There`s a new poll out this morning that says
-- you know, take a guess. How many people in this country, what
percentage, have insurance now for the very first time because of the
Affordable Care Act? How many? What percent?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The answer to that question is not surprising, but the
response to the answer from those FOX News hosts is jaw-dropping and it
requires us to present the FOX News viewers guide to Obamacare, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: The weird thing about this job or the one weird thing about
this job is that I spend an hour every night talking to you fine people,
but I do it while staring into the cold, unblinking eye of the cameras.
It`s unnatural.

Like all human beings, I crave interaction and human contact, which
is why next Monday, at 9:00 Eastern, I will be talking over the ALL IN
Facebook account for 30 whole minutes. You can ask your questions and we
can interact like normal people. I would very much like to virtually meet
you. So, it will be fun.

And we`ll be right back with Rachel Maddow.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: All right. We have some breaking news at this very moment.
The United Nations Security Council has passed the resolution on the
enforcement of the inspection and removal regime for Syria`s chemical
weapons. The regime of Bashar al-Assad submitted this plan after diplomacy
between Russia and the U.S. And now, an enforceable U.N. Security Council
resolution has been passed.

This is pretty stunning news and it is not arguably the biggest piece
of diplomatic news today. The other big news diplomatic news today is that
for the first time in 34 years, the president of the United States, and the
president of Iran have spoken to each other.

So, the president`s surprising announcement at the top of his public
statement today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Just now, I spoke on the phone with President Rouhani of the
Islamic Republic of Iran. The two of us discussed our ongoing efforts to
reach an agreement over Iran`s nuclear program. We`re mindful of all the
challenges ahead, the very fact that this was the first communications
between an American and Iranian president since 1979 underscores the deep
mistrust between our countries, but it also indicates the prospect of
moving beyond that difficult history.

So, the test will be meaningful, transparent and verifiable actions,
which can also bring relief from the comprehensive international sanctions
that are currently in place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Watching this news break over Twitter, and then watching the
president announced it and sitting and observing it, I felt like I was
watching the man that I voted for in 2008, very proudly, who ran an entire
foreign policy campaign about choosing diplomacy over war. A man who has
president, has been drawing to a close the two wars he inherited, but also
expanding our military activities in a variety of countries through
counterterrorism and drones and special forces.

Today, I saw that candidate from 2008.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Our Iran policy is a complete failure right now and that`s
the policy that John McCain is running on. He has nothing to offer except
the naive and irresponsible belief that tough talk from Washington will
somehow cause Iran to give up its nuclear program in support for terrorism.

I believe we need to use all elements of American power to pressure
Iran, including tough, principled and direct diplomacy. That`s what John
F. Kennedy did. That`s what Ronald Reagan did when dealing with the
Soviets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: The guy who said he would talk to Iran on a campaign trail,
today, talked to Iran. According to a senior administration official,
Iranian President Rouhani wanted to speak to the president on the phone
before leaving New York City. This after Rouhani reportedly turned down a
meeting with the president in the margins of United Nations General
Assembly earlier this week.

Today, at approximately 2:30 p.m., the two leaders engaged in a,
quote, "cordial" phone call, lasting approximately 15 minutes. A
translator facilitated the call as a common practice as the president made
calls to foreign leaders.

And then there`s the tweets from Rouhani in (INAUDIBLE), President
Rouhani and President Barack Obama, expressed their mutual political #will
to rapidly solve the #nuclear issue.

It is a strange time we live in.

And this one, quoting the two world leaders. Hassan Rouhani, have a
nice day. Barack Obama, thank you, (INAUDIBLE). A Persian language
expression meaning, God be with you. I`m sure FOX will have a lot of fun
with that.

Joining me now is the one and only, the great Rachel Maddow, host of
"THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW", which airs right after this, at 9:00 Eastern.
She`s also author of "Drift: The Unmooring of American Military Power."

I feel like there`s so much to talk about. Let`s start --

RACHEL MADDOW, TRMS HOST: Can we start with the #will? #will, it
will happen. It`s not "yes, we can." It`s "yes, we will." Did, it
happened. Amazing.

HAYES: It was amazing. It was amazing this happened and it did feel
like, right, this was a huge issue in the 2008 campaign. What will we do
with Iran?

And he, what Barack Obama did in that campaign was urn into the tough
position, which was yes, I`m going to talk to Iran and here we are five
years later, and he`s talking to Iran.

MADDOW: Well, what he -- so glad you played that piece from May 2008
because he`s saying, you know what? Tough, direct diplomacy is going to
get us actually what we want from Iran rather than us sitting here
haranguing them and not speaking to them. We`ve been trying not speaking
to them since 1979, how`s that working out?

But this comes on the heels of an incredible upsurge in sanctions
pressure under the Obama administration.

HAYES: Yes.

MADDOW: So they did stop talking as tough at the Bush administration
did. They upped the toughness of their actual actions toward Iran and said
we will talk. And obviously, it has a lot to do with the newfound
willingness of the Iranian side to seek out an American to talk to.

But none of that would have happened had the Obama administration not
pursued the course he took as a candidate.

HAYES: And I think one of the things that`s fascinating is the
domestic political situation is so different now. I mean, it was
different, you`ve already saw kind of waning in people`s enthusiasm for
this neocon bellicosity back in 2008.

But in the wake of what happened with Syria in which the country
almost together enjoined a cross party line, we are tired of war -- we just
are tired of war, that I think we`re not going to see the kind of political
domestic backlash to this conversation that happened today that you would
have seen five or six or eight years ago.

MADDOW: It was remarkable -- I mean, the one great miles -- one
great sort of benchmark person to watch here is always John McCain because
John McCain has never met a war he didn`t like and John McCain`s response
to the prospect of the U.N. Security Council resolution, which we
apparently now have, was that it made him sad. He did not want this to be
resolved diplomatically. He did not want Syria`s chemical weapons to be
resolved without a war, that made him feel sad and what`s amazing about
that is that it`s really just him. That`s a bizarre view to have.

And he has it alone now, and the rest of the country doesn`t have a
window.

HAYES: We`re now showing the breaking news banner of what`s coming
out in the U.N. I have to say, we were, you and I were both reporting on
this in the run up to it and I was talking to people in Washington and
watching it unfold when John Kerry came to the nation made this, you know,
passionate argument for strike, and I was like that this is a train wreck,
that the president is going to lose the vote in Congress, I think this is -
- I think it`s a bad idea substantively to do this. I don`t think it`s
going to work, I think it`s going to make things worse.

I can`t believe I`m sitting here a week later and there is a binding
and enforceable U.N. Security Council resolution with Russia voting for it
in which Syria is going to turn over their chemical weapons. It was
incredible diplomatic victory.

MADDOW: Yes. On the day that the American president speaks to the
Iranian president for the first time since 1979. I mean, these are both
the kinds of things that are not just unimaginable a week ago, but
unimaginable for the last several decades. And to have them all happening
at once to have sort of diplobamacy bearing fruit in this dramatic way. I
mean, I guess this is the way these things happen.

You know, you quietly work on these things for a long time, then all
of a sudden, when opportunity is available, things happen all at once. But
this is watershed stuff. This is historic.

HAYES: And what`s also interesting is that you have a situation now
-- one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this specifically is I
think there`s a case to be made that so much the foreign policy agenda of
the president in the first five years was drawing these two wars to a
close, that that took up the capacity for any kind of proactive diplomatic
internationalism that was the original promise of the Obama campaign back
in 2008.

Do you think that`s true?

MADDOW: It`s hard to know what progress is being made on the
diplomatic front, right? You look at --

HAYES: That`s so true. It`s happening so quietly and away from the
camera.

MADDOW: And how much does it matter that Hillary Clinton did those
million miles, right? That she logged all of that face time with all of
those world leaders going to places to have conversations that wouldn`t
have necessarily happened under any other secretary of state without the
kind of access and prestige that she had, how much did that lay the
groundwork for what John Kerry has been able to actualize in his short term
as secretary of state? How much of it is because of change happening in
other that we have nothing to do with, even though we like to imagine
ourselves as omnipotent?

HAYES: That is the other part of it. I mean, that`s a -- just to
make that point. I mean, Iran, Iran had their own kind of Barack Obama
election in which they threw out the kind of neocon cowboys who liked to go
around the world enflaming the world with rhetoric. And this is not to
make a moral equivalency, not (INAUDIBLE) George W. Bush, but to say that
the domestic political considerations of the populous there was that they
wanted a new course and they elected someone who gave them that and
apparently, supreme leadership is also behind this.

MADDOW: Yes, I`m with you for now, right?

HAYES: For now, right? So, you also have domestic political
considerations inside Iran, which have changed the situation.

MADDOW: And maybe we did influence those with sanctions. I mean,
sanctions ratcheted under the Obama administration in a way that made them
a qualitatively different experience from most regular on the street
Iranian, and maybe that did affect what happened in that election in what
Rouhani says is his mandate, which has allowed him now to have this call
with Obama. You know, maybe we do this influence, maybe those things work,
and maybe it`s mysterious.

But what you need to know as an American government is that we need
competent governance. We need people who are good at diplomacy all the
time and working at it even when it seems hopeless because sometimes, it
takes 34 years for that phone call to happen. But when it happens, you
better have done the work along the way because those opportunities come
along very, very rarely.

HAYES: And bring it back to Syria, that was what was most remarkable
about Syria, was that when an opportunity did present itself, the president
took it.

MADDOW: Yes, even if it came from a weird place, right? I don`t
care if John Kerry meant to say that in that way at that moment, when that
opportunity arose, they were on it. And maybe that`s because of a
preexisting relationship with Lavrov, maybe, who knows? But you got to be
ready and, you know, preparation is 99 percent of taking advantage of the
right opportunity.

I`m very, very proud of our diplomatic capacity as a country on that
--

HAYES: Well, I`m very much looking forward to seeing what you have
to say about this on your show, "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW." Thank you so
much for joining us.

MADDOW: Thanks, Chris. Thanks a lot.

HAYES: All right. Be sure to stick around, of course. "THE RACHEL
MADDOW SHOW" coming up at 9:00 p.m.

And we will be right back with #click3.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Could it be the reason FOX News views so much misinformation about
Obamacare is that their hosts actually don`t understand the most basic
parts of the law, possibly. We will show you evidence that is exactly
what`s going on coming up.

But first, I want to show the three awesomest things on the Internet today
beginning with the newspaper of record. For over 160 year, "The New York
Times" has offered its readers all the news that is fit to print and
sometimes, that includes corrections. The latest entrant made to the o
obituary of Hiroshi Yamauchi, the former president of Nintendo, the
brothers Mario and Luigi who appear in Super Mario Brothers II and other
Nintendo games are plumbers, not janitors.

Then, right there, are not janitors, but here we can`t beat on the great
lady. The former language used makes these revisions down light endearing.
You don`t need to read the original articles to enjoy. For example, this
correction from 2006, n article about the abundance of satire referred
incorrectly to an episode of "South Park." In it, the character Cartman
tricks another child into eating his own parents in a bowl of chili,
Cartman himself does not eat that one.

Try this one from 2011, an article about two college students with
Aspersers (ph) syndrome who are navigating the perils of the Internet
relationships misidentified the character from the animated children`s TV
show, "My Little Pony." And this will intimate said to visualize the
series out well. It is twilight sparkle, the nerdy intellectual, not
flutter shy the kind of the ladder.

But perhaps the winner of this correction from August, an article last
Sunday about the documentary maker Morgan Spurlock misstated the subject of
his 2012 movie "Mansome." It`s about male grooming, not Charles Manson.
I`m glad they cleared that up.

The second awesomest thing in the Internet today takes us to Sweden. This
typically tranquil (INAUDIBLE) utopia, easily listening and low-priced
furniture turned into a sweaty health skate this week where soccer fan from
rival teams rumbled at train station. Now, police were ready to move when
station`s escalator stepped in. It`s not clear whether it was
intentionally sped up or the thing just gave out from let`s say a zillion
people on it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boy, that escalated quickly. I mean, that really got
out of hand fast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Sure did.

And the third awesomest thing on the Internet today as anyone who is ever
watched TV at 3:00 a.m. most, characters in infomercials often fail at
life, that`s why they need products sold only on television to help them
deal with the everyday burdens of being alive.

Now, all of these misery has been such a music and I couldn`t think of a
better jamming, `80s British Emo Pop, here are the Smiths.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

HAYES: It`s a pretty artful collection of acting and salesmanship, it
makes me think infomercials will be better off using Morisi (ph) as their
pitchman. Selected anyone?

You can find all the links for tonight`s click3 on our Web site,
allinwithchris.com.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: I think a large part of what la is designed to do, whether you
agree with that ideologically or not, is to cover those on your insurance.
So, I just want to know how many people in your district are we talking
about.

REP. RENEE ELLMERS (R), NORTH CAROLINA: That was exactly the point. The
point is that those who are uninsured right now will remain uninsured.
Those who have insurance right now will lose their insurance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: There`s a lot of confusion about the implementation of Obamacare
and the affects will have on people. And that confusions extends all the
way to the halls of Congress. And last night`s show, Republican
Congresswoman Renee Ellmers from North Carolina seemed unclear about what
would happen to those who can`t afford health insurance and those already
covered.

The basic tenants of the law are that millions without insurance will now
qualify for Medicaid or be able to purchase individual insurance plans in
newly created markets called exchanges often with subsidies from the
government. While for the overwhelming majority of those with imploring
provided coverage, things will stay the same.

Four days from the big Obamacare rollout of those exchange, millions of
people have no idea what the hell any of it means. And part of the reason
why Americans are so confused about Obamacare because the people taking
about it literally don`t understand it at its most basic fundamental level.
Some of this is blatant fear mongering around the law, but more of it is
just not understanding what it does.

This morning, we got a perfect case study of this dynamic on live
television.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE DOOCY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: The small business exchanges were supposed
to be open. It is called the shop exchange, supposedly open on the first
day October. And because of secular (ph) glitches and they haven`t figured
out quite how to do it, they are going to say essentially you can fill out
a paper, however it won`t be available online probably until November.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: OK. So, it seems like Steve Doocy of FOX and friends read "the
Washington Post" yesterday and discovered that government`s small business
health exchanges which are similar to the individual exchanges but designed
for smaller businesses owners to shop for plans for their employees, that
will not open for online enrollment until November, which is not the best
thing in the world. But what Steve Doocy doesn`t seem to grasp is that the
law`s insurance plans don`t fully go into effect until January 1st.

January 1st is a very important day because again, that`s when the law goes
into effect when people start getting insurance. Sign upstarts in a few
days, but the law doesn`t go into effect until the first of the year. For
instance, let`s say I signed up for direct deposit at my job the other day,
but it won`t go into effect for another two weeks. That doesn`t mean the
direct deposit program of the bank is broken.

But that wasn`t the only the thing D.C. was confused about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: Remember during the original argument about whether or not we
should go ahead and pass the affordable care act also known, now known as
Obamacare. They are famously Karl Rove said on this program, he said, you
know, 85 percent of the country has health care and likes it. So why blow
up the entire system for 15 percent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: OK, I don`t think Steve Doocy is being disingenuous here. I think
he, like millions of people including many people in the media, just don`t
understand the basics of law.

Obamacare does not blow up the entire system. In fact, the main thing the
law does is deliver millions of new customers to the private insurance
industry which is kind of the exact opposite of blowing up the system, it`s
adding to the system.

If you are home watching this right now, the odds are extremely high that
essentially nothing aside from some added benefits and protections is going
to change about your health insurance on October 1st when the health
changes go live online or January 1st when they start ensuring people.
Nothing at all.

But there`s something else Steve Doocy and his friends seem completely
obtuse about.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: There is a new poll out this morning that says, that you know, take
a guess. How many people in this country, what percentage have insurance
now for this very first time because of affordable care act? How many?
What percent?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I would go 20. Let`s go 20 percent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Wait. Wait. 20 percent. That is a terrible guess considering
that Doocy just said 15 percent of the country didn`t have health
insurance. But -- OK, let`s continue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOOCY: What percent?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I mean, I would go 20. Let`s go 20 percent.

DOOCY: One percent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, great.

DOOCY: One percent of the country now has insurance because of the
affordable care act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s it?

DOOCY: Yes. We are helping out 15 percent, so far, just one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Yes. Yes. One percent. One percent because the core of the law
designed to insure the uninsured has not fully gone into effect yet.
Remember? I just said this a few seconds ago. January 1st is a very
important date because again, that`s when the law goes into effect. But
Steve Doocy believes the new health care law has failed to ensure the
millions of Americans who currently like health insurance before the law
goes into effect. That`s like complaining you haven`t gotten your
hamburger yet from a restaurant that doesn`t open until next freaking week.

Look, laws are big and often complicated and it is genuinely difficult to
figure out the details. They`re confusing and what might happen in the
future is difficult to predict. But that`s what those of us in the news
media are paid to do.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Might have noticed something unusual if you turned on any college
football games last Saturday. The letters APU written on wrist, tape and
towels of 20 players from three different schools. It`s not a bible
reference or tribute to an alumnus who died. It`s actually a subtle some
aversive gesture that signaled all is not well with the world of college
football. Players were pledging allegiance with all players united in
order to protest and spotlight the NCAA`s treat of the players who generate
massive amounts of revenue for their schools and coaches in exchange for
relatively little in the way of payment or protections.

College football is a huge business. The University of Texas alone, one
school, reported more than $100 million in football revenue over just one
season. As you can see from the map, the highest paid public employee in
the majority of states is a football coach. College football`s future
prospects are not so clear. In fact, if I was a hedge manager and I could
short college football, I would and here`s why. The sport has two colossal
threats bearing down on it. The first is the increasing awareness, a
college football players are putting themselves at serious risk for
traumatic brain injuries.

Earlier this month, three former players filed a class action suit claiming
the NCAA did not do enough to prevent and treat brain injuries and they
have some ammo. Internal NCAA e-mail show the NCAA did not enforce a
concussion policy for schools and that`s it`s top enforcement official
opposed penalizing coaches who put players back into games after they were
diagnosed with head injuries.

The other threat is the increasing recognition the entire model of
exploiting the free labor of these young people without giving them a share
of the billions in revenue they help generate is unsustainable. Just this
week, EA Sports and the collegiate licensing company said they were
settling a lawsuit brought by former players whose likeness were used in
video games without compensation. EA also announced it would halt
production on its called football game because it has been caught in the
middle of dispute between NCAA and student athlete over compensation.

On top of that, a class action lawsuit against the NCAA by current and
former players is currently making its way through the court. Victory for
plaintiffs could be worth literally billions of dollars and it would likely
fundamentally change the very nature of college sports.

Joining me now is Ramogi Huma, founder and president of the National
College Players Association, a former linebacker for UCLA.

What is APU all about? How did this get started?

RAMOGI HUMA, PRESIDENT, FOUNDER, NATIONAL COLLEGE PLAYERS ASSOCIATION:
Sure and thanks for having me.

The All Players United campaign is a campaign that was designed by current
college at athletes that sit on our players` council. Out my organization
is the National College Players Association and the councils serve as a
student committee. They really give direction on how to better protect
college athletes and really, they looked at one of the lawsuits that you
mentioned, the (INAUDIBLE) case over publicity rights and there were a few
players that currently play to join the lawsuit, but they immediately
started to take criticism for standing up for the players and the players
on the players counsel wanted to do something to show some solidarity
behind them. And they started planning, you know. They said well, let`s
do something visible. They had the idea of wearing something during the
game, you know, and to bring attention to these causes, but also to develop
the message because there is a lot of different issues that are important.
You have mention concussions as well. The NCAA has done very little on
concussions. If you compared to the NFL and NFL paved, they have done a
lot.

HAYES: Well, one of the difference there is the NFL has a union and it has
been subject to quite a bit of conversation.

I want you to hang around. We`re going to bring in a few other folks to
talk about the future of the NCAA right after we take this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: We`re back and I`m here with Ramogi Huma, joining us now is Mike
Pesca, Sports correspondent for NPR and Kenneth Shropshire, a special
counsel where he works on sports related matters.

Ramogi, one more question to you is, are you -- is what you`re doing
forming a union? What is the end goal here? What are you trying to do
with this association of college players? What do you want?

HUMA: Well, for the last 12 years, we have operated as a non-profit and we
have no plans to create a union or go on strike (INAUDIBLE) or anything
like that in all the years we have been in existence. But we have been
able to make some progress. We sponsored laws that have been passed. We
have helped shape public opinion through public pressure campaigns and even
been around some important lawsuits that helped give out these basic
protections. So, that`s the way we`re going to continue, but we need to do
it in a way where players can voice a concern because at the end of the
day, the NCAA always has special messages during the final four. Spend
millions of dollars to spin what`s really going on.

HAYES: Do you think, Mike, you`ve been covering this a lot. And as
particularly as traumatic brain injury evidence has mounted the way it has
effect the NFL. And the NFL has instituted just a ton of new rules. But
are they work or not is not the question, whether they are motivated by any
kind of humanitarian concern or simply dollars and cents and PR, but they
have done a lot. Are we seeing the same in the NCAA and is that just a
matter of the fact the players have less power in this weird cartel unpaid
system?

MIKE PESCA, NPR SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, that`s exactly it. We
are seeing less. But the NCAA expects the NFL to take the lead and they
don`t want to see themselves subjecting their players to anything
dangerous. But at the same time, they have no power. The whole reason the
NCAA exists and the whole reason they made this student-athlete designation
is an end around liability for injury because if you`re a student athlete,
not an employee, and you get grievously injured on the field, they don`t
have to pay you. That`s in the records. That`s the history of the NCAA
and why we even use the phrase student athlete.

HAYES: Kenneth, a lot of people look at increasingly, I think, look at big
time college athletics and they say lot of people here are making money and
the people off whom that money is being made, which are the athlete, I
mean, there`s estimates that a college basketball player at Louisville is
worth about $10 million to his school and revenue and to NCAA and
television as well. A lot of people look at that and say the players
should be paid. What do you think about that?

KENNETH SHROPSHIRE, ATTORNEY: Well, the heart of this, really nothing
wrong with it. I mean, really, what we should focus on the resources to
better use than paying head coaches five, $10 million a year rather than
putting money into new buildings and the like. But more importantly, I
think the work he`s done is important is the health care of the athletes.
The long term health care and those kinds of issues, I think the idea of a
salary or paying athletes, there`s nothing wrong can it. Amateurism is a
myth. It`s a rule that`s been put in place by the NCAA. But the idea of
paying athletes difficult to execute, but flowing more funds in their
direction to the welfare and the performers on the field. That`s what is
important.

HAYES: But part -- it seems to me that the thing that is stopping that
from happening is precisely this power and balance. I mean, with everyone
can say I observe from on high this is a corrupt or this is unfair system.
But what actually makes change happen is power. And right now, student
athletes as they are so-called, don`t, do not have a lot of power, partly
because they are young. Partly because they move through and cycle
through. They are not in the same place. Partly because they are
distributed over a lot of schools. I mean, that is the fundamental issue
here, is they don`t have the power to go head to head with the NCAA.

PESCA: Which is why Ramogi`s organization is so important because like you
say, at 18, it seems like a fundamental injustice and at 22, you are in the
NFL. And hey, I`m getting paid. And maybe Arian Foster says, hey, they
paid you at Tennessee, but you know, he doesn`t really cares. No one
really cares. Who is going to do this. Something like Ramogi trying to
mobilize the people now.

HAYES: Well, Ramogi, I would imagine these are difficult conditions under
which to try to organize or try to build power for all the reasons I just
said. You have got people all over the country. You have also got a
culture that is fairly (INAUDIBLE) used to taking orders and not being
rebellious and speaking up and standing out. That`s just the mentality of
locker room culture. Particularly in football, in which coaches have to
manage huge amounts of people. Do you get a lot of resistance when you go
and talk to players?

HUMA: I think this is why this is such a big deal. You know, these
players, under that environment, still chose to take a stand and speak
their mind and call attention to the fact they can be stuck with medical
bills. They can lose their scholarships when they are injured. Graduation
rates, you know, are 50 percent. And I think that always to empower the
players -- players have power, whether or not they channel it, has been the
question. And I think that this campaign was designed by players and
there`s no question of why you see players participating because they`re
doing it in a way that they`re comfortable.

In terms of television, they put those APUs out there on television.
There`s a reason why the shoe companies put their logos on these players.
Millions and millions of viewers are watching that and they are able to
make a statement.

HAYES: Well, and there is also a reason that these players are using EA
games. This lawsuit is remarkable. And just for folks understand. EA has
been manufacturing this college football game in which they don`t use the
name of current college players, but they essentially use the player`s
identity. And if you`re a, you know, if you are star quarterback who is
six feet and you wear number 12 and you are playing for Oklahoma state, the
Oklahoma state team has a star quarterback who`s six feet and wears number
12 and they aren`t seeing a penny of the revenue being generated for the
game.

PESCA: Yes. I need down to your skin tone and if you have an afro and
it`s clear they`re the person. I mean, it`s part and pear sell of the NCAA
saying hey, you should be happy. We are giving you a scholarship. EA says
hey, you should be happy. We immortalized you in the videogame and the
players maybe now are saying, you know, what would make us happy? A little
bit of scratch.

HAYES: So Kenneth, how does this change from your perspective?

SHROPSHIRE: Well, what is going to happen is a lot of the conferences will
separate out at some point probably. The NCAA (INAUDIBLE) so that the NCAA
basketball tournament, situations like that, will continue, but there is
going to be a change an economic change in system.

HAYES: Yes. I think there is too. I think we are headed towards a big
economic change. I think some of these lawsuits might precipitate that,
but I think a big thing might be public relations actually enforces.

Ramogi Huma from the National College Players Association, Mike Pesca from
NPR and attorney Kenneth Shropshire, thank you so much.

That is "All In" for this evening. And guess who`s back? Rachel Maddow.

Rachel Maddow show starts right now right over there.

Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW: Good evening, Chris.
Thank you for having me on your show. That`s very kind of you.

HAYES: Thank you for coming.

MADDOW: Happy Friday, thanks.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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