THE ED SHOW
February 26, 2014
Guests: Alia Rau, Julia Hernandez, Sherrod Brown, Brian Schweitzer>
ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Americans and welcome to the Ed Show
live from New York.
Let`s get to work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will business owners be allowed to deny services
based on their religious belief?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A controversial measure that some called it keep the
gaze away look.
GOV. JAN BREWER, (R) ARIZONA: The bill is in transmittal and I don`t have
to make a decision until next Friday. So I`ve got plenty of time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This bill discriminates against no one. On the
contrary, it strengthens against discrimination.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought I`d seen every crazy thing in the world that
could happen in a state legislature but this really beats them all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It opens a door for discrimination in a huge broad
BREWER: I`ve got plenty of time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I go against religious beliefs, what about me is
going to tell you that .
CATHI HERROD, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR ARIZONA POLICY: The outcry against the
bill has nothing to do with the actual merits of the bill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three GOP senators have now flipped their vote.
BREWER: I`ve got plenty of time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pressure from John McCain to Apple even concern from
Super Bowl organizers.
HERROD: I don`t buy the arguments on the economic impact. I believe again
this is about protecting people of all faith.
BREWER: I`ve got plenty of time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight folks. Thanks for watching.
You know, watching this situation unfold in Arizona, it brings me to the
conclusion that sometimes in America we just don`t know how to
differentiate between right and wrong, even when it comes to human decency.
This is the most discriminatory law that I think that we have ever seen a
state body come forward with. And Jan Brewer, the governor, is having a
hard time making a decision on what to do, really?
The governor of Arizona is right in the center of the hottest debate in
America. It`s a debate because they don`t know what human decency is all
It`s up to the woman who pointed the finger right in the face arrogantly.
Now, we`re finding out how arrogant she really is. We thought she was
arrogant back then but we really weren`t sure. We thought she might have
been just passionate. No. She`s arrogant.
What`s the holdup, Governor? You mean to tell me you don`t know what
discrimination is about? Well, she`s not sure whether she`s going to veto
the Arizona Senate Bill 1062.
You know, today Brewer had to hold a series of private meetings with
opponents and proponents of the legislation. Gosh, I don`t see anybody
stepping out and saying they`re really for it now, now that the scam has
been ripped off this damn thing.
She thinks it`s a Saturday deadline because she doesn`t have the guts to
make the decision right now in this hour. To either she`s going to sign it
or she`s going to give it a stamp of approval.
What it infuriates me, what gets my blood boiling about this is that we
shouldn`t even be at this point in this country. We should be beyond all
of this kind of stuff. The bottom line is Senate Bill 1062 is a license to
discriminate and there`s actually some people in Arizona who are proud that
it`s on the table.
The efforts could be far reaching, the effects will definitely be far
reaching and I say efforts because, you see, there`s other states that are
thinking about doing the same stuff.
Senate Bill 1062 allows businesses to use religion as an excuse to legally
refuse service anybody. Gosh, now that`s a pretty broad brush, you know.
No matter what Brewer decides, it hasn`t been fast enough.
At the center of the storm is this person right here. You know what?
There`s just a damn good political operative in every state in America,
isn`t there? Here`s a good one for the Conservatives in Arizona. Her name
is Cathi Herrod. She`s the President of the Center for Arizona Policy.
Cathi Herrod is the architect of 1062. Cathi Herrod is not an elected
official but she will some power, in fact she maybe more powerful than the
governor herself in Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HERROD: In 2011, we reached a pinnacle for us that the Arizona legislature
over the last 15 years has passed 101 bills supported by Center for Arizona
Policy. Those bills ran the gamete (ph) of life, marriage and family, and
religious liberty, judicial reform. So we`re very blessed that we`ve
reached 100 bills and we`re looking forward to the next 100.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: They`re very blessed. There are hundreds of people like Cathi
Herrod who worked in the background to get this stuff going crafting
legislation and then of course they push their own agendas. Who are they
really coming from?
Republicans in Arizona are basically just doing her bidding. Take State
Treasurer Doug Ducey for instance, see Cathi Herrod works as a campaign
advisor for Ducey. That`s right. In the past, Ducey has counted his
relationship with Herrod. Ducey is next in line to be the Republican
gubernatorial candidate for Arizona.
Now, this is the kind of company that this guy keeps. Senate Bill 1062 is
expected to play a role in the governor`s race coming up, I hope so. So
Ducey was eventually really pressed to release a press statement regarding
this bill. Ducey claims he, you know, if I was governor I`d veto the bill
right now, I`d veto it.
So he says this, "Forging consensus on acceptable language protecting
religious liberty." That`s a little vague, isn`t it?
Basically, Ducey is looking to distance himself from the bill. Ducey has
yet to distance himself from Herrod. Herrod on the other hand, well she`s
not backing down.
In response to the backlash, Herrod she`s playing herself as a victim in
all of this.
HERROD: I just hope that listeners and people around the country will see
this for what it is, as showing incredible hostility toward religion. And
that our first freedom, our ability to live out our religious belief as our
founders intended, as wars have been fought for our right to live out our
religious belief, that that is what is very much under attack.
SCHULTZ: It`s the religious right on the attack.
Herrod now finds herself up against a growing opposition that includes
members of her own party. Three GOP senators who voted in favor of Senate
Bill 1062 including co-sponsor Bob Worsely, well they changed their mind.
And State Senator Steve Pierce said something very interesting.
He says, "We were uncomfortable with is to start with and went along with
is thinking that it was good for the caucus. We really didn`t want to vote
for it, but we made a mistake, and now we`re trying to do what`s right and
Good for the caucus? What does that mean? You mean to tell me they think
there`s just a little fraternity that runs Arizona and nobody else is going
to be paying attention to it? This is how the Conservatives think these
days. This is modern day conservatism.
They are trying to make it right? What does that mean? Even failed
presidential candidate Mitt Romney, well he had to get into the game,
tweeted the governor of Nebraska Brewer and said, "Veto of Senate Bill 1062
Really? Mitt? Gosh, you`re not an innocent bystander anymore. Why in the
world would you want to make sure that you`re not involved in
discrimination? You`re thinking about doing it again? Bring it on,
Now, I don`t know if I trust Republicans` definition of right at this
point. For instance, Governor Jan Brewer saying that she`ll do what`s
right for Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BREWER: Certainly I`m going to go home and when I receive the bill and I`m
going to read it and I`m going to be briefed on it and we can have them
following it and I will make my decision of it in the near future. I have
until Friday or Saturday morning to determine that and I don`t rely a whole
lot on my gut because I have to look at what it says and what the law says,
and take that information and do the right thing. But I can assure you as
always I will do the right thing for the state of Arizona.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Yeah, she`s going to take discrimination under consideration.
You know, I`d argue most people with a conscience. It wouldn`t need a few
days to know what`s right in this case. The Arizona Chamber of Commerce,
they know what`s right. Industry leaders, they know what`s right. They
voice their opposition citing the bill would be bad for business.
Well, wait a minute I thought the Conservatives were always good for
business? They`re lining up now. Marriot, American Airlines, Yelp, Apple
they`ve all sent the governor similar warnings. Now, the most dangerous
and most impressive and probably the most hurtful economically, this
objection comes from the Arizona`s -- to Arizona`s economy the bigger story
comes from the National Football League. They got big bucks, right?
You see, Arizona is set is to host the Super Bowl next year at the
University of Phoenix Stadium in Glendale. Well, the Super Bowl means
hundreds of millions of dollars for the local economy, but what if there`s
a blackout? What if there`s a boycott then what are we going to do?
The NFL, they`re ahead of the game. They released a statement. They`re
paying attention to Arizona politics. They said, "Our policies emphasize
tolerance, and inclusiveness, and prohibit discrimination based on age,
gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or any other improper standard.
We are following the issue in Arizona and we`ll continue to do so should
the bill be signed into law, but we`ll decline further comment at this
Is this breaking news? Did the NFL just tell the state of Arizona? They
pulled a corker on them. You vote no on this, dog, and then you vote the
wrong way on this thing. We`re going to take our big show somewhere else.
What else could it be?
Ding, ding, ding, the bell goes on for Senator John McCain. He`s awake
today, took the economic approach as well.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: Unfortunately, it hurts the image of our
state justice. A couple of years ago, our other law SB 1070 that you`re
familiar with it`s not an accident that our Arizona Chamber of Commerce and
our business leaders came out with a very strong message yesterday that
they don`t want the governor to sign this, as if this is going to hurt the
state of Arizona`s economy and frankly our image. So I hope that the
governor of Arizona will veto this and we move on. Arizona is the most
beautiful state and America and it`s not helpful when we see this kind of
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Wow. We`re giving him a lot of time to mop this thing up, aren`t
we? Not once did Senator McCain mention the issue of civil or human
He didn`t focus on the discrimination factor, he focused on the image, on
business. It`s so important. The only reason Republicans are now
backtracking is because when the Chamber of Commerce in big business tell
them to jump, they just say, "How high?" Yeah, we want to keep the Super
Get you cellphones out. I want to know what you think tonight`s question.
"Do you trust Republicans to do the right thing on Senate Bill 1062?" Text
A for Yes and text B for No to 67622, you can always go to our blog
@ed.msnbc.com. We`ll bring you the results later on in the show.
Joining me tonight from Arizona, Alia Rau a legislature reporter for the
Aliya, good to have you with us tonight.
ALIA RAU, ARIZONA REPUBLIC: Hi.
SCHULTZ: You`re at the State Capitol right now, what`s the latest? What`s
RAU: I am. We`ve got state lawmakers having various meetings with the
governor that`s kind of the big thing today. Who`s been in her office?
Who`s been out? What`s everybody saying and what the governor might do? I
think that`s the big question of the day is. What and when.
SCHULTZ: Why is it taking so long?
RAU: The governor says she wants to weigh all her options. She wants to
talk to both sides, but I think that`s a good question. I think several
lawmakers have made it pretty clear that everybody is kind of tired of the
circus that has resulted and was looking for some of kind of an answer.
SCHULTZ: Well, Alia, tell us, who`s now still in favor of the bill? The
governor had secret meetings today with the opponents and proponents. Who
were the outspoken proponents at this point now that this -- the national
spotlight is on Arizona`s legislative session?
RAU: Well, we have a very conservative legislature. There are definitely,
you know, a number of Republican lawmakers who are in support of it.
Senator Al Melvin who is actually running for governor has been a big
proponent both on social media and publicly. And then there are a number
of other lawmakers, you know, who supported the bill, who continue to
SCHULTZ: What do you make of the legislator who said, "We really didn`t
want it, we were just doing it for the caucus." It`s almost as if they
didn`t read the bill. It`s an admission that they made a mistake. Is this
how Arizona politics runs? Are there other issues that -- where they just
simply don`t read the legislation, they just do what advocacy groups tell
them to do?
RAU: I don`t think it`s sort of an issue of not reading the bill. The
bill is only two pages. It doesn`t take very long to read it. But I
definitely think it`s, you know, there`s a lot in politics. We had a big
fight over Medicaid last session that really divided the caucus, there`s
been a big effort to kind of reunite the Republican caucus this session and
so there`s a lot of back politics playing into it that maybe have very
little to do with this bill.
SCHULTZ: I find that -- I`m sorry, that is hilarious. All this over a
two-page bill, just too much work for these legislators to consume a two-
page bill and then come back and say, "Well, we made a mistake." That`s
just amazing to me.
Alia Rau, thanks for your time tonight. I appreciate it.
You know, a two-page bill, and now they`re running away from it. Let me
tell you something folks, let`s not lose side of the fact that the House
and the Senate, you know, this wasn`t put together on a bar napkin. They
wrote this legislation, they willingly put together a piece of legislation
that was going to discriminate against Arizona citizens and they got
caught. That`s what happened.
Let`s bring in Arizona State Representative Lydia Hernandez. Mrs.
Hernandez, good to have you with us tonight.
What is your reaction .
STATE REP. LYDIA HERNANDEZ, (D) ARIZONA: Thank you, Ed.
SCHULTZ: You bet. What do your colleagues in Arizona saying about this
and the way the Republicans are backtracking from this?
HERNANDEZ: Well, to be expected I`m -- I think when I first saw you on
Saturday by the way when you were last here in Arizona, I was feeling
crushed at the moment because of -- we had -- it was the onset. It just
vote -- I mean it had just been voted on. It just passed. And I was
feeling like what does it going to take for this to go away? What is it
that we as Arizona must do?
And what I started seeing over the next few days was American Express, I
mean Apple wanting to do business in Arizona coming out and speaking
against the bill. I think that there`s got to be a lot more of that. I`m
grateful for that. But for me, like I said, it`s a very different feeling
that when I was feeling on Saturday.
HERNANDEZ: I`m more optimistic. I think, you know, still that there is a
disconnect in our community. I think there was an opportunity though for
us to come together with business community. This is only but one issue.
We`ve got many more issues that .
HERNANDEZ: . are very much alike to discriminate and work against working
families in our Arizona citizens. I look forward to .
SCHULTZ: Lydia, what is taking the governor so long to make a decision on
HERNANDEZ: I think she`s really weighing it out. I`m glad for what it --
how long it`s taking honestly because that means to me conversations are
taking great. If she would have made a decision right of the cuff, I would
have been fearful. So I`m hopeful with the conversations that are taking
place. I think we need more business folks to come forward to, you know,
to apply that pressure.
SCHULTZ: All right. And I want to know about the .
HERNANDEZ: And I think that translates with a very good opportunity.
SCHULTZ: OK. I want to know about Cathi Herrod and her involvement in
this. Did she actually write this bill or was this bill handed to her
through an advocacy group that she just happened to be pushing? And also
her association with the Republican candidate for governor, what about all
HERNANDEZ: You know, I`ve had very few conversations directly with Cathi
Herrod. And I`ve had maybe, I`m going to say, maybe one conversation with
her on an issue. Other than that, I don`t -- I can`t really tell where
it`s coming from her or an advocacy group.
HERNANDEZ: I do know though that there is a push -- a very conservative
push that`s not just here in Arizona but all over the nation. I think that
push comes from there honestly.
SCHULTZ: OK. Lydia Hernandez, State Representative in Arizona, good to
have you with us tonight. I told you to keep the faith. I told you
Saturday night, "Keep the faith. Keep going. And it`s all going to work
out." Advocacy words, you bet.
HERNANDEZ: Thank you. Thank you, Ed.
SCHULTZ: Up next, a new attack on voting rights in Ohio was Governor John
Kasich signs two more voter registration bills into law. Senator Sherrod
Brown joins us with a reaction.
And later, one of the poorest places in the country takes a stand against
big oil. We`ll bring you to the live location and coverage of the Rosebud
Sioux Reservation in South Dakota. Stay with us.
SCHULTZ: Time now for the Trenders social media action pretty heavy.
Governor Brewer is going home to study a two-page bill. How could that not
Facebook.com/EdShow, Twitter.com/EdShow, and ed.msnbc.com is where you can
catch us. And I have a lot to say on the radio tomorrow on SiriusXM
Channel 127, noon to three. And on Progressive talk stations across the
country you can get my pod cast on my radio website at wegoted.com.
Ed Show social media nation has decided and we are reporting. Here are
today`s top Trenders voted on by you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Give me a beat.
SCHULTZ: The number three Trender, Yo, first lady raps.
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We need to
keep on coming up with new ideas to get kids excited about healthy habits.
At Marshall High School in Virginia, kids actually wrote and performed a
rap song. If I`m going to help my brain to come to fruition, I`m going to
have to feed it quality nutrition.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It ain`t all about the money
SCHULTZ: Michelle Obama promotes healthy eating with some fresh meats.
M. OBAMA: Roll my chicken in a wrap. Don`t jam it in a nugget. Get hyped
for healthy snacks, fresh food. We love it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get jiggy with it.
M. OBAMA: Holler.
SCHULTZ: The number two Trender, four score.
BARACK OBAMA, 44TH AND CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:
Four million people, four million.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s over 9,000.
B. OBAMA: Four million Americans who have signed up for quality, private
SCHULTZ: Health care signups hits four million.
B. OBAMA: March 31st, that`s the last call. We want everybody covered.
SCHULTZ: But critics remain skeptical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four million people. That is almost a meaningless
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Perhaps the review of the numbers there is -- in
hopes that will add all those four million together.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you multiply each one by N.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It isn`t even a real number.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really curious to find out how he`s going to come up
with four million.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know, I think, I need a tutor.
SCHULTZ: And today`s top Trender, block the vote.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The state of Ohio is back at it again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s like ground hog day. Every time you wake up,
they`re restricting voting rights.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Governor John Kasich signed into law two bills that
could create barriers to the ballot box.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is very easy to vote in Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is a movement to cutoff the voices of the
everyday folks to have an opportunity to vote.
SCHULTZ: Ohio`s Secretary of State makes a move to restrict voting.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are ground zero in this war against voting rights.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We should be expanding and protecting the right to
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The barriers are going to be replaced by the same
STATE REP. KATHLEEN CLYDE, (D) OHIO: Making cuts to early voting and in-
person early voting disproportionately hits African-Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we are going backwards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Joining us tonight, Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio. Senator, good
to have you with us tonight.
SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO: Good to be back.
SCHULTZ: This is going to be a connection and elite but this is just Ed
My friend, this is about you. And I`ll tell you why it`s about you because
you have stood up to the big banks. You`ve got legislation to break up the
banks. John Kasich knows he needs Wall Street if he ever wants to go any
further politically and they don`t let you back in the Senate. And I do
believe that restricting the vote with these laws are going to certainly
hurt the Democratic base across the board.
Senator, congratulations. You know, the .
BROWN: What an honor.
SCHULTZ: . the bad news is it`s going to hurt a lot of folks, isn`t it?
BROWN: Yeah. Yeah. It`s just -- it`s been -- this has been cross the
country. Ohio, sort of, always the epicenter because of the presidential
race and the work that sort of the premier swing state but they went after
collective bargaining rights that`s why you spent so much time in Ohio in
They went after -- they went after women`s rights and one of the kind of
middle of the night and insertion over the budget bill, some of the most
anti women health care rules and regulations. And now, they`re going after
voting rights which they`ve also tried to do before but, you know,
fundamentally, they talked -- they say they want to do something about jobs
but they spend their time on this stuff. And it`s all a question, you
know, they know they`re losing the battle. They`re losing elections.
BROWN: They`re losing -- and so they change the rules. These are rules.
These are bipartisan rules written by a Republican legislature a decade
ago, I mean it was the Republicans legislature, Republican governor that
drafted all these voting rules and now they realize, well, we can`t
restrict the vote quite enough. So, we got to redo them and keep people
certain people from voting let`s just say.
SCHULTZ: Well, for certain people number one minorities, number two the
working folks, the wage earners. I mean voting on weekends reduced, voting
on evenings reduced, the number of polling places reduced. I mean, they`re
going after the middle class. They`re going after the working folks of
America. How else do you read it?
BROWN: Yeah, it`s their economic plan for frickle (ph) down the economics,
tax cuts for the rich, everything is aimed that if workers and minorities
and the poor, the way they govern is all about that. It`s a mean
spiritedness that we really didn`t see in this country a decade or two
decades ago, even when Conservatives run the Senate seat in the Reagan
years they didn`t do this kind of stuff.
BROWN: There was more bipartisanship on the minimum wage, more
bipartisanship on extending unemployment benefits. There is consensus by
enlarge on voting rights, by enlarge.
There were some on the edge that, you know, that were -- again some rights
bills. Now, the most people said this is what we wanted. When I was
secretary of state 25, 28 years ago whatever, I went to McDonalds
corporation they printed up one million tray liners. The pieces of paper
about this big, you put down on the plastic trays when people got their
food. They were voted registration forms you could fill them in, you could
mail them in to the secretary of state`s office. We had voter registration
forms that had catch up stains but they were legitimate, people voted, more
Now, this crowd wants to do the opposite of that. And it`s just--it`s
morally reprehensible if nothing else.
SCHULTZ: Senator Sherrod Brown great to have you with us tonight. Keep up
the fight, my friend. Thank you so much.
Coming up, our special series Divided Heartland: The American Debate
continues. Folks in the middle of the country are taking action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something has awakened in all of us. And I think
many people around the United States and around the world. So, I think the
day is starting to change for big oil companies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You put this pipeline through you just well change of
slogan of the land of the free to the land of big money.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because that is what it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Plus, we`ll take you live to the Rosebud Sioux Reservation for a
new compelling piece of the Keystone XL debate
But next, I`m taking your questions on Ask Ed Live just ahead stay with us.
You`re watching the Ed Show on MSNBC. We`ll be right back.
SCHULTZ: Thanks for watching the Ed Show. Love this segment. Love the
questions. But we`re a little tight on time tonight because we got a lot
on the back after the show.
First question comes from Matt (ph). Do you think Walmart`s support of
manufacturing products made in United States will backfire?
Well, first of all, I think it`s 98 percent PR. And speaking of
percentages, let`s give them a year or two and then let`s find out what
percentage of American products are going to be on the shelves in Walmart.
Isn`t that the test?
Lot`s more coming up. Next part of the Ed Show. Stay with us.
BERTHA COOMBS, NBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Bertha Coombs with your CNBC Market
Wrap. Stocks end with slight gains. The Dow adds about 18 points. The S
and P just barely positive while the NASDAQ was up just over four.
Finally, some promising news on the housing market. New Homes sales jump
9.6 percent last month getting a five and a half year high. Meantime,
weekly, mortgage applications fell to the lowest level in nearly 20 years.
And Target`s data breach to the bite out of the company`s earnings but the
results edge (ph) pass expectations from analysts. Shares rose 7 percent
That`s it from CNBC. We`re first in business worldwide.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. Tonight, we continue our
investigation into the Keystone XL Pipeline focusing on the Native American
And we are on the ground in Nebraska on Friday in a group of Rosebud Sioux
Tribe. Tribal members drove six hours to meet with me and our team. They
say the pipeline will be -- will bring violent crime and toxic water to
their already struggling community. The Rosebud Reservation is one of the
most economically depressed places in the country, but the people are rich
in tradition and in determination in their fight against the multinational
company flooded with cash and a government they feel has forsaken them yet
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: There are three major issues that support those who oppose the
pipeline -- the oil itself, the toxic quality of the tar sands oil, the
placement of the pipeline over the aquifer, and the lands rights of the
BYRON STESKAL, KEYSTONE XL OPPONENT: I have TransCanada memo that says it
will leak 1 to 2 percent undetected.
SCHULTZ: So you don`t.
JANE KLEEB, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, BOLD NEBRASKA: And so the pipeline that
spills 800,000, I mean, that carries 800,000 barrels a day, that`s a lot of
tar sands embedding going into the ground undetected.
SCHULTZ: What`s your response to those who are concerned about coming over
BOB HILGER, KEYSTONE XL PROPONENT: I think they`ve alleviated that
process, you know, that problem by kind of going around and up there at the
Sandhills. We have aquifers all over in the state.
SCHULTZ: Couple those with political pressure and what landowners call the
unscrupulous business tactics of TransCanada.
JIM TARCNICK, KEYSTONE XL OPPONENT: You know, TransCanada wants to push
this idea of -- we want to say thousands of jobs that they are creating and
maybe a hundred jobs they`re creating.
RUSS GIRLINO, CEO TRANSCANADA CORP.: And shortly, this then creates jobs,
42,000 of them. People criticize that number, but that is the number, and
certainly enhances U.S. energy security if you can bring more barrels from
a continental source.
ART TANDERUP, KEYSTONE XL OPPONENT: There are the best used cars sales
will you ever find but they only have to sell you one car. And then when
that car is sold, they`re going to be out of the country, you know, and
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`re already out of this country.
TANDERUP: . and there`s no warranty on this used car that they`re going to
SCHULTZ: But there is another facet to this project in story which has
received little or no attention -- the concerns of the native Americans.
The pipeline is strategically placed through the United States so it
doesn`t touch reservation land, although it comes within feet of the
reservation along the route. Disseminations still has concerns about the
Steele City Segment of the project which cuts through South Dakota. This
connects with the Cushing Extension of the pipeline in Kansas.
Portions of the project have already been constructed, but the Native
Americans are determined to make sure their concerns are met although some
state lawmakers claim they never heard from the Sioux Tribes.
ABBIE CORNETT, FMR. NEBRASKA STATE SEN.:I never was contacted by any of the
tribal leaders. A guy I know that was appoint was brought up by one of the
groups, but none of the tribes ever spoke to me about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Tonight, their story. Joining me now, Gary Dorr of the Nez Perce
Tribe and Wizipan Little Elk of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe from Rosebud, South
Dakota. Gentlemen, thank you for being on the program tonight.
Gary, you first. What are your people`s major concern about this pipeline
if it goes through?
GARRY DORR, NEZ PERCE TRIBE: Well, the major concern we have is obviously
the effect that this could have on the natural resources, on the people,
and on the sacred sites. And the fact that the tribe has not been
consulted -- multiple charged and not being consulted as part of this
process which is required in the Section 106, the National Historic
Preservation Act. And also, required under the Presidential Initiative on
Tribal Consultation, we are supposed to be at the table as signatories.
We`ve been relegated to the concurring parties which is innocuous any
reports for responding to the deeds that we have with, the structure does
going to go in place.
SCHULTZ: Gary, do you want the pipeline project stopped? And if you do,
what`s your next play?
DORR: Well, we do want the pipelines stopped. It`s in the form that`s in
right now. The mechanics that`s already in placed. We`ve seen from
Keystone 1 -- there`s been 14 oil leaks on that Keystone 1 pipeline in the
first 18 months of operation. And if this keeps on going, you know, the
Rosebud Sioux Tribe is poised to stand the line and keep the pipeline from
going through this territory.
SCHULTZ: What does that mean?
DORR: Well, we`re going to have a series of spiritual camps that we will
set up along the pipeline and we`ll be standing on the line to prevent them
from going through.
SCHULTZ: You will prevent the pipeline from being built?
DORR: We will stand the ground, yes.
SCHULTZ: Wizipan, what about the Nez Perce Tribe? What are your biggest
concerns and will you stand the line as well?
WIZIPAN LITTLE ELK, ROSEBUD SIOUX TRIBE: Thanks for having us on, Ed.
Well, actually Gary is from Nez Perce but, you know, we`re very
appreciative of our brothers and sisters, you know, and other tribes.
We`re appreciative of the efforts of the Nez Perce have made and the other
tribes in the region to stop the mega loads that are coming through and
impacting their treaty (ph) grounds and the health and welfare of their
people. And we`re thankful for the efforts of other tribes that we`re
standing with. And also, we`re, you know, very thankful and appreciative
of the support and the efforts that our friends, you know, Indian and non-
Indian throughout the country are showing.
LITTLE ELK: . and we`re very pleased with our brothers and sisters in
Nebraska and the recent went (ph).
SCHULTZ: Wizipan, what threat does this pipeline present to your people?
LITTLE ELK: It presents a number of threats, both politically and legally.
One of the biggest threats is actually the health welfare and safety of our
women and children and even in some instances, young boys.
Just for further background Ed, one in three American Indian women are
raped in their lifetime or sexually assaulted. And 86 percent of the time
where there`s a rape or a sexual assault that crime is committed, the
perpetrator is a non-Indian. And that`s just the report statistics, and
we`ve seen this kind of assault on native womanhood, assault on our people.
In the man camps up in North Dakota was a lot of the development that`s
going on up there. So we know that it`s a fact. We have communities that
are right by the pipeline. We know where the man camp is going to be
located and we have serious and great concerns about, you know, just the
basic safety of our people.
SCHULTZ: So, is this man camp going to be located near the residence of
the Rosebud Indians, the Rosebud Tribe there, of the Sioux Indians? And is
the man camp is -- going to be so close to your people that you think that
there would be rapes and violence and that there is a real safety concern
LITTLE ELK: Well, we have communities that are living in five counties
spread across, you know, our traditional Rosebud territory. And these man
camps are right in the middle of our traditional homelands guaranteed to us
by the 1868 treaty, and you know, again, we`ve seen this happen in North
Dakota and other areas, you know, may not be right on, you know, within
feet of someone`s land but these people are going out there interacting in
the community. They`re going to the same places and going that there are
people frequent. So, you know, based on what we`ve seen in North Dakota we
can expect some really bad things to happen.
SCHULTZ: Gary Dorr, if the president of the United States was doing this
interview right now. What would you say to him?
DORR: I would call out to Black Eagle as he`s known to the native people.
I would ask him to look at his own initiative on consultation on these
tribes that are all along from Montana all the way down to Texas. We
deserve that consultation. We enjoyed a special relationship with the
United States as a nation to nation government. And as your former
Nebraska Senator, last senator, congresswoman said -- she said that was --
they were not consulted. We don`t consult with the states. We consult
with the United States of America. The Federal Government and that has not
been met. In the programmatic agreement, we were not consulted, we have
not signed off. And we deserve that signatory status in the programmatic
agreement. We deserved to be consulted.
SCHULTZ: Gentleman, I would like to come out to your reservation and see
exactly where this man camp is going to be. And I`d like to know how the
security is going to be resolved if the pipeline goes through.
Gary Dorr and Wizipan Little Elk, thank you for joining us tonight on the
Ed Show. And we will continue to follow the story. Thanks so much.
DORR: Thank you.
SCHULTZ: Our continuing coverage right here on MSNBC. With the turn to a
big supporter of the pipeline, we`re going to talk to Governor Brian
Schweitzer. He weighs on the concerns, and the land grab, and the dangers
to the water supply. Coming up. Stay with us.
SCHULTZ: All week long, the Ed Show has been bringing you stories from the
ground in Nebraska about the pipeline. The state has become the battle
ground in the fight against the Keystone XL project.
Coming up next, Former Montana Governor Brian Schweitzer joins us live with
his message for landowners across the country protesting the pipeline. Our
series, "Divided Heartland, The American Debate" continues next here on
MSNBC on the Ed Show.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. The big picture effort against the
Keystone XL Pipeline is the concern over global carbon emissions. To the
environmentalists, this is just more the same, although carbon emissions
don`t seem to be the driving issue for many of the folks in Nebraska.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KLEEB: Wherever you go, people want to talk about the pipeline. This is
an issue that is at the heart of a lot of things in Nebraska because -- and
I think one of the main reasons is it brings everything together.
SCHULTZ: For the people of Nebraska, it`s about the aquifer and the land
grab. These two issues have cultivated new alliances.
KLEEB: It`s the citizens and land owners and the tribes that have really
become a strong alliance with us. You know, when we started we had about a
thousand e-mails of folks, and now, we have over 25,000 and about 90
percent of those are Nebraskans and over 3,500 small donors mostly
Nebraskans as well. So, we have strong support in our stand.
SCHULTZ: Land owners here say they have experienced what they never
thought could happen in America.
RANDY THOMPSON, FILED PIPELINE LAWSUIT: Truly outrageous part of this
whole thing. Our governor and our legislature granted the power of eminent
domain to afford corporation that is still in the permitting process. They
have the power to come and condemn any of our properties that were on the
pipeline review (ph) even though they don`t have a permit to be in the
United States. I mean, to me, that is totally outrageous.
And the sad part is, if you follow the pipeline route, South Dakota has the
same thing. Montana has very lax. They changed their eminent domain laws
in favor of pipelines in that type of thing.
And so, they have greased all the wheels all up and down the line, you
know. They have undue influence and so many legislatures, and you know,
we`re seeing the power of money in America.
SCHULTZ: In this entire debate, the only assurance that landowners have
been given about protecting the water is a shrug their shoulders, just
don`t worry about it.
THOMPSON: One of the safest ship that was ever built.
SCHULTZ: Yeah. It (inaudible).
KLEEB: We`re definitely stubborn. Hey, in Nebraska, there`s no question
about that. But later, there`s another state who`s stubborn, as well. I
think with water, the massive amount of the Ogallala Aquifer that our state
sits on definitely is the game changer with this pipeline, and it certainly
touches other states as well, but you`re essentially talking about our
entire state. And we`re not state. We`re not in oil state.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Joining us tonight, former Montana governor and his first
appearance as an MSNBC contributor, Brian Schweitzer. Governor, good to
have you with us tonight.
Doing the homework on this.
BRIAN SCHWEITZER, FMR.GOVERNOR, (D) MONTANA: It`s good to be back.
SCHULTZ: You bet. Doing the homework on this in the research, I can`t
seem to get a good answer from anybody who`s a supporter of the pipeline as
to what about the potential damage to the aquifer if God forbid, there is a
big spill? How do you get around that?
SCHWEITZER: Well, Ed, as you know, I`m a soil scientist, but I`ll leave it
to the real experts and that would be this Dr. Gecky (ph) who was 40 years
the University of Nebraska is the foremost authority on the Ogallala
Aquifer on the planet.
He has more than a thousand test holes and he is described in an article in
the New York Times that there is a minimal chance for this oil on the
surface to reach the aquifer. This is not a water soluble product and
there`s a lot of geology between the surface and the water.
Some people don`t understand. The Ogallala Aquifer is not just some lake
down there. This is like a sponge. These are rocks down there that
contain this water.
Now, the greatest danger to the Ogallala Aquifer is all the wells that have
been drilled. Both oil and gas wells and the 100,000 plus irrigation wells
that go directly from the fields down to the Ogallala Aquifer -- and so,
during the last 30 years, there`s more than 12. No one carcinogen,
pesticides that are used on those fields that are now found in the Ogallala
Aquifer. In addition to that.
SCHULTZ: So if there is -- so governor, I got to ask you. If there were
to be a pipeline disaster the way there was in North Dakota where a million
gallons was put out on the land, if this were to come out over the Aquifer,
you mean it would have no effect on the water?
SCHWEITZER: According to Dr. Gecky (ph), there is no conduit for -- to get
there because oil is not water soluble like the chemicals that I just told
SCHWEITZER: Water doesn`t mix with oil.
SCHULTZ: All right. And also, the real concern of the landowners is that
an international -- multinational corporation has come in and basically
cash sweep the landowners except for a 75-mile window. And the permit
against the issue, as you just heard the gentleman say, what`s your
response to that?
SCHWEITZER: Well, there is 10,000 miles pipelines that crisscross Nebraska
right now. There`s 100,000 pipelines that crisscross the Ogallala Aquifer
all of -- both oil and gas, and there`s 81 pipelines that comes from Canada
right now. This would be the 82nd pipeline. Almost all of them are
carrying oil sands and many of them cross through Nebraska in some way or
Look, eminent domain is something that I have been familiar with my whole
life. My dad used to meet those land men with their shotgun and tell him
to get the hell off the ranch. But they come back to build those
transmission lines and those pipelines because that`s what the society
In order for you to get oil some place to some other customer or to run a
transmission line to somebody`s house or farm, you have to have come across
somebody else`s farm or ranch through time. That`s what we`re talking
SCHWEITZER: And so eminent domain says if the company can`t make a deal
with the landowner, then a judge decides what that compensation level
should be. That is eminent domain.
SCHULTZ: And finally governor, what about the concerns of the Sioux Tribe?
I don`t know. You must have heard that earlier.
SCHWEITZER: Well, I was just.
SCHULTZ: . in this broadcast. I mean, they say they have not been legally
SCHWEITZER: Well, you know, again, that`s the South Dakota style of
government. Certainly in Montana, we always do government to government
relationships with the tribes and.
SCHULTZ: OK. But it`s a federal issue with the tribes, is it not?
SCHWEITZER: It should be a federal issue with the tribes.
SCHULTZ: OK. All right.
SCHWEITZER: The state is the regulating agency, but the state has got to
do business government to government.
SCHULTZ: All right.
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