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PoliticsNation, Monday, May 12, 2014

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May 12, 2014

Guests: Emanuel Cleaver, Joe Madison, Joan Walsh, Ellie Boldman Hill

Schultz. "Politics Nation" starts right now with Reverend Al Sharpton.

Good evening, Rev.

REVEREND AL SHARPTON, MSNBC ANCHOR: And good evening to you, Ed. And
thanks to you for tuning in.

Tonight`s lead, speechless in the GOP. The Affordable Care Act is working
and Republicans literally don`t want to talk about it. It`s quite a change
from the beginning of the year when they were plotting another year chalk
full of healthcare repeal votes.


In my opinion, Obamacare is on borrowed time.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: We need to repeal every single word of

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: If I had my way about it, we
would repeal Obamacare and start all over and get it right.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: We could repeal Obamacare
and get this monkey off the backs of the American people.


SHARPTON: It was going to be all repeal all the time. And yet after four
years of dragging their feet, Eric Cantor said the House would finally vote
on a health care alternative in 2014. But that was then. What are the
Republicans saying now? Speaker Boehner, take it away. Nothing? How
about Eric Cantor who promised that vote.

The sounds of silence. "The Hill" reports that Republicans don`t have any
health care hearings scheduled. No one going after the law and no votes
trying to repeal it. Guess it`s going to be a quiet summer.

And remember that other GOP talking point that the health care law was
going to sink Democrats in the midterm elections?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s clear Obamacare is still the number one, number
two, number three issue going into this election.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This issue is going to be toxic for the Democrats. And
believe me, we will tattoo it to their foreheads in 2014.


SHARPTON: It turns out, voters don`t think it`s toxic at all. A NBC poll
shows Arkansas Democratic Senator Mark Pryor up 11 points over his
Republican challenger Tom Cotton. A red state Senate race and the
candidate who pushed for repeal is down double digits?

And how about Arkansas governor Mike Beebe who expanded Medicaid. He`s got
a 79 percent approval rate. This law is working and regular people know
it. Another new poll finds 61 percent of Americans want to keep or
fantastic the health care law.

It couldn`t be more clear. This law has helped millions of people get
ensured and the GOP prognosis about the law was totally wrong.

Joining me now Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, Democrat of Missouri and
MSNBC`s Krystal Ball. Thank you both for being here.

KRYSTAL BALL, MSNBC HOST, THE CYCLE: Thanks for having us, Rev.

SHARPTON: Congressman, is the policy success of the health care law
starting to change the politics of it as well?

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D), MISSOURI: I think you just said it perfectly.

Look, the polling, the Republicans cannot change the polling. But the
polling will eventually change the Republicans. And the reason is, if you
look at 1936, just prior to the election, FDR signed Social Security into
law. And then Alt Lyndon (ph) ran against him, campaigning almost
exclusively against Social Security. Lyndon (ph) won two states.

Let`s take 1964, Lyndon Johnson flew to Kansas city, signed the Medicare
bill with Harry Truman whose idea it was and Barry Goldwater ran against
him. Johnson won 44 states and the district of Columbia. Goldwater won
six. Look. The best way for people to criticize something is quietly.

SHARPTON: Well, Krystal, you know, talking about the polls, another
interesting thing for the NBC poll. In Kentucky, 57 percent of people have
an unfavorable view of, quote, "Obamacare." With only 33 percent
favorable. But when they call it Kynect, which is the name for the
Kentucky plan, more people view it favorably than unfavorably.

So Republicans have managed to smear something with the president`s name,
but it is a different story with the law itself.

BALL: Yes. And Governor Beshear of Kentucky who has been, you know, very
aggressive in making sure that the implementation there is successful. And
the Kynect works well for people, tell the great anecdote about going to a
fair where folks are signing up for Kynect. And one of the people there
commented, you know, this Kynect is so great, I don`t know why Obamacare
doesn`t learn a thing or two from it.


BALL: But it`s the same thing, right. But Republicans have been very
effective for a long time in saying don`t like the president. And if you
don`t like the president, you also shouldn`t like his health care law,
because when you poll separately on what Obamacare was, the provisions in
it were consistently popular, but the name itself had been so politicized.

Now we`re faced with a situation where it`s not so easy for Republicans
because real people are benefitting from the law. Real people are getting
health care that have never had it before. And even if it is not you, it`s
your friends, it is your family members, it is your neighbors that are
getting access to this care that have not had it before.

So it makes it a lot harder t just demagogue and lie those same way that
they have been.

SHARPTON: You know, Congressman, something that`s not being talked a lot
about in the media that people ought to know, "The Washington Post"
reported new stats from the hospital corporation of America, which runs
hospitals in 20 states. Hospitals in states that expanded Medicaid are
admitting 29 percent fewer uninsured patients.

But hospitals in states that didn`t expand Medicaid are actually seeing
more uninsured people. Doesn`t this show how much good the law is doing?
How much harm Republicans have created by opposing it, congressman?

CLEAVER: Absolutely, Reverend. You know, unfortunately the state of
Missouri is hanging out in the 12th century because the Missouri general
assembly will not approve the governor`s recommendation that we would
expand Medicaid here. If that happened, 300,000 people would be insured
here, right here in Missouri, 300,000. You look at that around the
country, or you just look right here in Missouri, that`s 300,000 people who
will now have insurance, who will not show up at hospitals, HCA hospitals,
or other hospitals for that matter, without insurance and going to
emergency rooms.

This is going to be a game changer for the U.S. economy. And I think that
the states who are not expanding Medicaid are wallowing in two or three
centuries behind.

SHARPTON: You know, Krystal, yet with all of that with being clearly
factual. They`re still in denial. Some aspects of the leadership of the
Republican Party. In fact, the boss, the head of the Republican party, he
still thinks the law will be bad for Democrats in the election. Listen.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: This November is going to be huge.
If just half of the lies of Obamacare had been known, this wouldn`t be a
way of election we would be talking. We would be talking about the
Democrat party funeral. It`s one of the up sides there is in all of this.


SHARPTON: I mean, does this mean that some Republicans are still going to
try to run on this law or run against the law, really?

BALL: They are. And, you know, I mean, it`s sad to watch that and the way
that they lie to the people who are going to them for accurate information
because all of the things that they`ve said, all of the doom and gloom that
they`ve said about Obamacare has been false. You know, they said there was
going to be this death spiral. That didn`t happen. They said young people
weren`t going to sign up. That didn`t happen. Young people did sign up.
They said people weren`t going to pay their premiums, that didn`t happen.

So every time they made a prediction that Obamacare was going to fail,
they`ve been totally and completely wrong. And yet some folks still hang
on, a lot of folks unfortunately in the Republican party still hang on to
this idea that the law is an absolute failure and we would be better off
repealing it. And for the base of the Republican party because they` been
selling them this line song, unfortunately it still is somewhat an
effective political attack.

SHARPTON: But only in the base.

But on the other side, Congressman, the president has been saying campaign
on the law. He`s been saying that Democrats should not run from it but run
to it and campaign on it. Listen to this.


something. You`ve got eight million people who signed up on these
exchange, you`ve got millions more who are benefitting from expanding
Medicaid. And I can`t explain to you why they`re so obsessed to make sure
those folks don`t have insurance. But we`re on the right side of history
on that issue.


SHARPTON: That`s the line. Isn`t that the point, Congressman?

CLEAVER: It is, absolutely. And history will show that the American
people embrace what is right and not who is right. And the Republicans are
hanging out on the who is right and trying to use some lagging poll numbers
on the president`s part to suggest that anything he touches is wrong.
That`s why they use the term Obamacare. They use it in a pejorative way.

But the public went right past that and said we`re interested in what
works. And I think that the sad thing is that -- and I think Krystal is
absolutely right. I`m in the House of Representatives every day looking at
people who have nothing else to do in terms of demonizing this, because the
American public is already with them on this issue.

SHARPTON: This is a huge story in this election year, health care. We`re
going to be watching it all the way through.

Congressman Emanuel Cleaver and Krystal Ball, thank you both for your time

BALL: Thanks, Reverend.

CLEAVER: Good to be here.

SHARPTON: And be sure to watch "THE CYCLE," Krystal on " THE CYCLE "
weekdays at 3:00 p.m. right here on MSNBC.

Coming up, right wingers make some stunning jokes about the fight to bring
back those abducted Nigerian schoolgirls. They`re mocking the first lady
and it`s way over the line.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are these barbarians in the wilds of Nigerians supposed
to check their Twitter accounts and say, Michelle Obama is very cross with
us. We better change our behavior.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is trending. It is trending on Twitter.


SHARPTON: Plus, John Boehner is trying to pull a fast one. You won`t
believe what Republicans are claiming with their latest bogus talking

Also, a man shoots and kills a student in his garage and claims self-
defense. It`s an explosive new court case that`s reigniting debate about
the guns and the law. Stay with us. Big show tonight.


SHARPTON: It`s been two weeks since L.A. Clippers owner Donald Sterling
was caught on tape making racially-charged comments. And now he`s


DONALD STERLING, L.A. CLIPPERS OWNER: I`m apologizing and I`m asking for
forgiveness. Am I entitled to one mistake after 35 years? I mean, I love
my league, I love my partners. Am I entitled to one mistake? It`s a
terrible mistake and I`ll never do it again. I`m not a racist. I made a
terrible, terrible mistake.


SHARPTON: The apology comes on the heels of the NBA appointing former Time
Warner chairman and CEO Dick Parsons as interim CEO of the Clippers.
Parsons says he`s deeply troubled by the pain this has caused and will
oversee the team until it is ultimately sold to a new owner. NBA owners
will hold a vote to oust sterling, but his wife Shelly says she wants to
keep her stake. The NBA says she`s not entitled to keep it if a sale is

Let`s be clear. This fight is one heading in the right direction. And
that`s the clippers being sold is the right direction in my judgment. The
Sterlings have no claim to this team anymore. In this great country, hate
isn`t rewarded. It`s game over.


SHARPTON: Strap on your Seattle belt, Republicans are trying to pull a
fast one. After weeks of ugly scandal mongering, the House GOP is out with
a whole new message. All they care about is jobs. They swear.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Republicans are focused on building a strong economy
that produces good jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Compete for in-demand jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forty two thousand direct and indirect jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ll help them find good jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Promote innovation and job creation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep good ideas and good jobs.


SHARPTON: This is amazing. They deserve an award for saying this stuff
with a straight face. Jobs? It`s been all Benghazi all the time. And
despite having all the answers and every one getting debunked, they still
voted to create another Benghazi committee, which is what they spent a all
weekends talking about.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Democrats have been politicizing and that`s wrong
about people who died.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R), FLORIDA: They decided not just to mislead the
American public, but to mislead the families of these victims as to exactly
what happened.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an attempt by the administration to cheapen
the death of four Americans.


SHARPTON: They accused administration of cheapening the death of four
Americans while claiming Democrats are playing politics? And yet Speaker
Boehner says this has absolutely nothing to do with politics.


BOEHNER: This is a serious investigation. I don`t want theater. I don`t
want a side show.


SHARPTON: He doesn`t want theater, he doesn`t want a side show. This is
nothing but theater, and their new claim about jobs is just another part of
the act.

Joining me now is Dana Milbank. Thanks for being here.


SHARPTON: Dana, Republicans have been pounding Benghazi obsessively now.
They claim they`re relentlessly focused on jobs now. How do they say this
with a straight face?

MILBANK: You know they`re obsessed about Benghazi because they even forgot
to attack Obamacare for the last week or so. So, they really been -- they
have really been distracted by it.

They are very much concerned about jobs. They`re concerned about their own
jobs. And if you take a look at what this election is in November, it`s a
base election. Need to turn out the party faithful, the hard core
conservatives who have been demanding if for a year and a half now they do
more with Benghazi. And finally they said OK, we`ll give you what you
want. We`ll do more with Benghazi.

So, it is very much the base -- they are doing what the base of the party
demanded. Even though it doesn`t make a whole lot of logical sense here.
And even though it may hurt with the broader electorate who is after all
not terribly interested in having yet another committee doing yet another
investigation of Benghazi.

SHARPTON: And you know, the head of this committee, Congressman Trey
Gowdy, you know, is back peddling after referring to the investigation as a
trial. Listen to this.


I spoke in trial metaphors and perhaps I need to get out of that habit.
What I simply meant is when you asked how long something is going to last,
I need to know how cooperative the other side is going to be.


SHARPTON: But even today, Gowdy`s own Web site still has video of him that
show him saying the jury is out. Under the headline, Representative Gowdy
to the families of Benghazi victims, the jury has not forgotten.

So they`re setting this up, language over trial all islanders of analogies
and inferences. And it`s not like we haven`t been down this investigative
road on Benghazi over and over again.

MILBANK: No. And I`m delighted to hear Chairman Gowdy backtracking here.
But let`s face it. The National republican Congressional committee, under
the control of Republican leadership has been fundraising off of this. And
by having this Web site called Benghazi watchdogs.

Before I came on your show, Reverend Al, I checked it. It`s still there.
They`re still raising money off of Trey Gowdy and this Benghazi committee.
How do they expect the American public to take this seriously, to believe
that this isn`t a show trial? To believe that this is some honest,
legitimate investigation when it, in fact, is being used for the express
purpose of raising campaign funds for house Republicans?

SHARPTON: Now, Democrats still haven`t said whether they`re going to
boycott participation in this committee or whether they`re going to join.
"The New York Times" reports they are looking dubiously at joining the
panel. What`s your sense of what they`ll do?

MILBANK: I think ultimately they have to participate in it because whether
they like it or not, the Republicans are in control of the house. They can
have the committee, they can have c-span there and they can demand that
Hillary Clinton comes up there and testifies, which she presumably would.

Do they want to have it so that they can`t -- Democrats can`t be there to
help her present her side of the story? I mean, this is all about going
into 2016 and that`s -- in fact, that`s when Trey Gowdy started talking
about a trial, and the administration is the defense talking about bringing
this into 2016 into the expected campaign of Hillary Clinton. If that`s
what it`s about, Democrats want to be there and have their mouths going at
the same time.

SHARPTON: Dana Milbank, thank you for your time tonight.

MILBANK: Thank you, Reverend.

SHARPTON: Coming up, a new video surfaces showing the missing Nigerian
schoolgirls. Instead of uniting, some of the right are playing ugly
politics and mocking first lady Michelle Obama`s bring back our girls

Plus Senator Marco Rubio once said, quote, "I`m not a scientist, man." And
now he`s proving that theory. We got you in a big way, next.


SHARPTON: It`s time for climate change deniers to go back to science

Last week, the White House released a big report on the impact of climate
change in the U.S. President Obama was in California, tackling the issue of
climate denier-ism head-on.


OBAMA: Climate change is real and we have to act now. Unfortunately
inside of Washington, we`ve still got some climate deniers who shout loud,
but they`re wasting everybody`s time on settled debate. Climate change is
a fact.


SHARPTON: Climate change is a fact. But Republican senator Marco Rubio
isn`t convinced. He`s aiming for the top grade in climate change denial


RUBIO: Yes. I don`t agree with the notion that some are putting out
there, including scientists, that somehow there are actions we can take
today that would actually have an impact on what`s happening in our

Our climate is always changing. And what they have chosen to do is taken a
handful of decades of research and say that this is now evidence of a
longer term trend that`s directly and almost solely attributable to manmade


SHARPTON: Has Senator Rubio done any homework? He thinks climate change
isn`t manmade and there`s nothing we can do about it? He gave a similar
presentation just last week.


RUBIO: I think severe weather has been a fact of life on earth since man
started recording history. I think -- I understand that there`s a vast
consensus of the scientists that are saying that human activities is
contributing to changes in our climate. I think that`s an enormous stretch
to say every weather incident we now read about, or the majority of them
are attributable to human activity. But here`s what we need to do as
policymaker, because that`s what the president is. He`s not a


SHARPTON: The president not a meteorologist? Marco Rubio is one to talk.
He was once asked how old he thought the earth was and he responded, quote,
"I`m not a scientist, man." But can you believe this? He actually sits on
the Senate science committee. What do you do to get on that one? It`s
clear senator Rubio should have paid a little more attention in science
class, especially as the senator from Florida, a state that will be hugely
impacted by climate change.

The new report said Miami and Tampa are among the top cities at risk. But
hey, he did prove one theory right. He`s definitely no scientist. Maybe
it`s time to go back to school.

Did Marco Rubio think we wouldn`t notice he slept through science class?
Nice try, but we go you.


SHARPTON: Today, a new video surfaced which appeared to show about 100 of
the Nigerian schoolgirls who had been abducted by terrorists. U.S.
officials say, the video appears to be authentic. The girls are seen
wearing full veils and praying. The terrorist leader behind the abductions
now says, he`ll let the girls go in exchange for militant prisoners. He
also claims the girls have been converted to Islam. A U.S. team is now on
the ground in Nigeria trying to help officials there with the search.

This weekend, rallies were held in support of the young women, including
one here in New York that the mayor and I participated in. The First Lady
also has become a vocal advocate, tweeting out this photo showing herself
holding a sign with the #bringbackourgirls. And this weekend, in a rare
move, she delivered the White House weekly address.


MICHELLE OBAMA, U.S. FIRST LADY: Like millions of people across the globe,
my husband and I are outraged and heartbroken over the kidnapping of more
than 200 Nigerian girls from their school dormitory. In these girls,
Barack and I see our own daughters. We see their hopes and their dreams.
And we can only imagine the anguish their parents are feeling right now.


SHARPTON: This story should unite both sides. But for some on the right,
it`s become an excuse to mock and vilify those, who like the First Lady,
use social media to rally support for the missing girls.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s an exercise in self-esteem. I do not know adults
stand there facing a camera and say bring back our girls. Are these
barbarians in the wilds of Nigeria supposed to check their Twitter accounts
and say uh-oh, Michelle Obama is very cross with us. We better change our

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s trending. It`s trending on Twitter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, the hashtag isn`t enough for you? The

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was incredible. I mean, incredible. But, you
know, we`re a different place. We`re a different country. We`re not

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why is the First Lady showing us the hashtag?
Shouldn`t she just show her husband?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can`t base your policy on what`s trending on
Twitter. It has to be more than hashtags and selfies.


SHARPTON: It has to be more than hashtags and selfies? This from the man
leaving who`s Congress to become the next Rush Limbaugh of the right wing
radio networks. At the end of the day, this is about girls, girls who are
ripped from their schools, their lives literally stolen. And it`s beyond
shameful that any pundit or politician would try to ridicule those who are
fighting to get these girls home.

Joining me now are Joe Madison and Joan Walsh, thank you both for coming on
the show tonight.


JOE MADISON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you, Reverend Sharpton.

SHARPTON: Joan, let me start with you. Mocking attempts to bring back
these girls, isn`t that both tone deaf and offensive?

WALSH: It`s both those things and more. I mean, it really shows, Reverend
Al that that there`s just not a single tragedy that these people won`t use
to bash the President and to race bait. You know, we had Rush Limbaugh
suggesting that this group couldn`t be called terrorists because they look
like African-Americans. The First Lady --

SHARPTON: They couldn`t be terrorists --

WALSH: They couldn`t be called terrorists, as though we`re being
politically correct, because they look like African-Americans.

SHARPTON: Now, people think you`re making that up. Let me play the boss
of the Republican Party saying that. Listen to this.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: The Boko Haram leader whoever Boko
Haram had perform on video is a good looking guy. This is why Mrs. Clinton
wouldn`t call this group a terror group because they`re black. You can`t
afford to do that. This is how surface conscious the left is. We can`t
call them terrorists because they look like African-Americans and we just
can`t go there.


SHARPTON: What is that supposed to mean, Joan?

WALSH: It`s just playing to the basest instincts of his racist listeners
Reverend Al, and he manages in there doing this now more and more, right?
They`re slamming Hillary Clinton. It`s not just mocking the First Lady,
but it`s slamming Hillary Clinton and accusing all of us of political
correctness if not narcissism, and it`s completely wrong headed.

SHARPTON: Well, Joe, I mean, not only is it slamming the First Lady,
slamming Hillary Clinton, what is he saying about African-Americans that we
would not want to see people caught that would do this to young girls?

MADISON: Excuse me, Reverend Sharpton, didn`t we both go to South Sudan to
deal with people who were being taken slaves when most people in the media
didn`t even know where South Sudan was?

SHARPTON: Yes, we did. And we did it while a democrat was in the White
House, by the way.

MADISON: Thank you.

SHARPTON: And I went to Rwanda while a democrat was in the White House.

MADISON: And we criticized them. I mean, what are you talking about?
This is what I don`t understand. If George Will`s daughter, if all those
folks on the FOX said had daughters that had been taken the way that these
300 young ladies had been taken and the First Lady held up a hashtag,
wouldn`t they have the decency to say thank you for at least empathizing?
Thank you for at least thinking of us? And didn`t we have young people and
old people and people all over the world wearing hoodies not too long ago
because they empathized? They understood. This is just plain nasty and
let me add something that -- I mean, I`m floored by what you just reported
what Rush Limbaugh said. But Alan West is now saying that this is a
conspiracy theory, or a conspiracy theory that`s been put together by the
Obama administration. I kid you not.

SHARPTON: Let me help you here. You know, we have a great research team

MADISON: Yes, you do.

SHARPTON: Let me give you exactly what he said. Former Congressman Allen
West claimed that the administration is only focusing on Nigeria to, quote,
"distract from Benghazi." He writes, and I`m quoting, are we witnessing an
Obama wag the dog moment with Boko Haram in Nigeria? I say yes. Consider
all the scandals facing the Obama administration, especially Benghazi.

MADISON: So all the parents of those girls are in on it and the 50 girls
who escaped and came back and talked about the danger they were in, they`re
in on this scheme, along with President Obama? I mean, this is immoral.
It`s immoral.

SHARPTON: But that`s the point, Joan. There`s no boundaries. We`re
talking about not something that happened -- these young ladies are still
gone. They are still in the possession of whomever they`ve been either
sold to or with those in Boko Haram. And these guys are playing football
like this is some maneuver that`s not happening? It`s to really distract
from something else? How ruthless can you be?

WALSH: Well, and to talk about it as an exercise in narcissism when the
First Lady is talking about Nigerian girls who are not normally top of mind
for American power brokers, let`s be honest. Also, this really was
surfaced largely by social media. It became a cause and a movement.
People used social media, not to gossip about Beyonce, but to do something
powerful and positive. And it`s largely been led by African-Americans. So
the other idea that African-Americans are somehow peddling are trying to
soft peddle -- we shouldn`t even be dealing with Rush Limbaugh. I
apologize for bringing him up.

SHARPTON: Well, I`m going to have to live it there. Joe Madison and Joan
Walsh, thank you both for your time. And I must say, and I made this point
in my column this week, the real issue is, why it took weeks to even make
this an issue. Why Africa is ignored when unless we get to a super crisis,
it`s not even dealt with. Rwanda was ignored until many of us just kept
beating the drums and raising the voice level. And the same with Sudan if
it wasn`t the same with Joe Madison and others.

And I went that wouldn`t become an issue. Ignore. Africa is the most
mineral rich continent in the world. Why do we ignore terrorism and
genocide in Africa until we can`t ignore it any longer? That`s the other
side of the broader question of this whole attack. And we`ve got to keep
the world`s attention on this until these girls are brought home. I don`t
care what the other side says. There shouldn`t be another side to this.
Still ahead, did a man gun down a college student for the prank known as
garage hopping? A new case is reviving the debate about guns and self-

Plus, Rand Paul`s surprising statements about voter ID. Stay with us.


SHARPTON: A deadly shooting in Montana is yet again sparking debate on the
self-defense laws in this country. This unarmed 17-year-old was shot to
death inside of a garage. It happened in the town of Missoula in Montana
in the middle of the night on April 27th. Twenty nine year old Marcus
Kaarma on the left of your screen shot 17-year-old Diren Dede to death.
Reports say, Dede, a German exchange student may have been garage hopping.
Sneaking into an open garage to steal some beer or other items and then
sneaking out again. Clearly, it`s illegal. But this time, it was also

Kaarma had set up baby monitors around his garage and left the garage door
open. This is a screen shot of the surveillance video. You can clearly
see Dede inside the garage there. Prosecutors say, Kaarma shot four times
into his dark garage without warning after Dede tripped the sensors he
installed and the shots killed him. Friends of the high school soccer
player expressed shock when they learned of the shooting.


CHANCE MAES, FRIEND OF DEDE: My friend called me and I just thought it was
a bad dream. Like I didn`t know what happened. And it didn`t really hit
me until yesterday when I saw everyone at school. And it`s just been kind
of a shock.

ZACK PLASMIER, FRIEND OF DEDE: And he was probably one of my closest
friends. He was my first friend. He transferred here from Delaware. So,
he was the first one I met here. We just hit it off. And he was one of
the nicest people I`ve ever met in my life. And he was just always there
for you if you needed anything. Just give it to you.


SHARPTON: But Kaarma`s lawyers say, he feared for his safety and acted in


PAUL RYAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Unfortunately, he was in his mind forced to
discharge the firearm because of the noises that he heard within there.
And he knew there was a male in there. And he shot, not trying to shoot
and kill, but to warn. And unfortunately the young man was struck and


SHARPTON: Marcus comments charge with deliberate homicide. So, was this a
case of self-defense or murder?

Joining me now is State Representative Ellie Boldman Hill, a democrat from
my Missoula who wants to repeal the law saying, it`s given people a shoot
first culture. And also with us, Faith Jenkins, former prosecutor and
MSNBC legal analyst. Thank you both for being here.


SHARPTON: Representative, let me go to you first.


SHARPTON: Why did this shooting prompt you to call for action?

HILL: Well, frankly, Reverend, I`m a mom, a former prosecuting attorney
myself and a third term legislator and I`m outraged. I`m outraged that the
National Rifle Association has come into the state of Montana where we had
100 years of perfectly fine self-defense laws. And at the behest of the
American Legislative Exchange Council ALEC, the Koch Brothers, changed the
law in Montana and change the law in 24 states to represent not just shoot
first ask questions later, but vigilante justice and a license to kill.
And so within 24 hours after this young man was murdered, I joined with a
lot of folks to say as a gun owner, enough is enough.

SHARPTON: Now Faith, in court documents, filed against Mr. Kaarma, his
partner, his partner and mother of their 10-month-old child told police
that they had laid a trap. This is what they said. She said that she
placed a purse with personal belongings that she had cataloged in the
garage so that they would take it. Despite the fact that she had been
burglarized. She left the garage door open. She set up a baby monitor in
the garage and installed motion sensors. I mean, did they essentially set
up a situation where someone would come into their home?

JENKINS: And the prosecutors are also saying that this defendant told a
witness that he had been up for three nights waiting to shoot a kid.

SHARPTON: Well, let me again go to our crack research team.


SHARPTON: Court documents also mentioned a woman at the hair salon who
spoke with Mr. Kaarma before the shooting. Quote, "When Felene asked the
defendant how he was doing, the defendant replied, I`m just waiting to
shoot some bleeping kid. He told the stylist that he had been waiting up
for three nights with his shotgun to some bleeping kid. She also reported
the defendant was being extremely vulgar and belligerent."

JENKINS: So this is why, these are the reasons why the prosecutors have
charged him with deliberate murder. And also you may see a charge of
premeditation here. I mean, this has really taken the debate about the
expansion of the casual doctrine laws and the expansion of senior ground
laws to a new level. Can you use the laws that allow you to protect
yourself and your home to set a trap for a potential intruder to kill

SHARPTON: Well, Representative, that`s the point. Are these self defense
laws supposed to be set up for people to lay traps and sit up and wait to
kill somebody?

HILL: No, absolutely. That`s my contention, Reverend, is that these types
of laws have created a culture in our country of vigilante justice that
have expanded too far. I believe that this individual is using the castle
doctrine. Although it`s premeditated murder just like we`ve seen in
Florida with Trayvon Martin and now we`re seeing out here in the west with
Montana. This isn`t an urban or rural issue. This isn`t a republican or
democrat issue. This is an issue of the NRA taking our gun laws, taking
our self-defense laws and running amuck in a dangerous way that has made
our communities less safe and has now resulted in a culture of violence
where people are being murdered in the name of their castle.

SHARPTON: Faith, you know, Mr. Kaarma`s lawyer defended his client`s
actions pointing out they had been robbed in the weeks before the shooting.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you look at the fact that it`s late at night at
their home. They had been robbed two different times. We know there`s
somebody in the home. It`s certainly leads to a lot of facts that would
allow somebody to defend themselves.


SHARPTON: Now, it`s a fair point. Doesn`t someone have the right to
defend their home? What should he have done?

JENKINS: If they`re in reasonable fear, yes. And the castle doctrine is
about, listen, if someone is breaking into your home, you don`t have to
wait and see what they`re going to do before you can take action. There`s
a presumption that you are in fear of someone`s breaking into your home
that they might harm you. Here, different circumstances because this young
man was in the garage and we now know about these facts where the defendant
had set up, because he had been burglarized before, to see if someone was
entering and then he open fired without saying a word. Essentially lured
this person in and didn`t call the police at that point.

And so, when you`re looking at the -- in 2009, in this state of Montana,
they expanded the castle doctrine. Because it used to be someone entered
your home in a violent or tumultuous manner, then you could assume that
they would perhaps harm you. But now it`s just about what your reasonable
belief is. When you look at the facts here, is it fear or a plan? The
prosecutor is saying this was a plan. He was not in reasonable fear.

SHARPTON: Well, we`ll be watching. And we`ll be keeping up with what
happens with these laws. State Representative Ellie Boldman Hill and Faith
Jenkins. Thank you both for your time tonight.

JENKINS: Thank you.

SHARPTON: Coming up, Senator Rand Paul speaks out on voter ID laws. And
it might surprise you. Plus, Michael Sam becomes the first openly gay NFL
player. Then came the ugly backlash, but there`s a hopeful part to this
great story. Stay with us.


SHARPTON: This weekend, Michael Sam made history by becoming the first
openly gay player drafted into the NFL. It was a huge moment for him and
for America. A moment he shared with his partner on live TV. The White
House released a statement saying, quote, "The President congratulates
Michael Sam from the playing field to the corporate board room, LGBT
Americans prove every day that you should be judged by what you do and not
who you are."

Unfortunately some Americans chose this moment to voice their worst anti-
gay sentiment, using Twitter to attack Sam`s embrace with his partner.
America is better than this. We moved beyond this. Today, Michael Sam has
the second highest sales in NFL Jerseys out of all those in this year`s
draft. And a recent poll shows that 59 percent of Americans support gay
marriage. The NFL is ready for Michael Sam, and so is America. We wish
him the best of luck.


SHARPTON: It`s been a rough few weeks for the GOP on efforts to suppress
the law. Judge ruled voter ID laws unconstitutional in Wisconsin and
Arkansas. Pennsylvania`s GOP governor gave up his fight for voter ID in
that state. And now we`re even hearing a few Republicans speak out against
voter ID itself. On Friday, Senator Rand Paul told "The New York Times,"
quote, "Everybody has gone completely crazy on this voter ID thing. I
think it`s wrong for Republicans to go too crazy on this issue because it`s
offending people."

He`s right. It is offending people. And it is wrong. I`m encouraged by
the senator`s words. But the true task of your conviction is whether
you`re willing to put those beliefs into action. And "The Times" said
quote, "Paul did not on Friday denounce voter ID laws as bad policy".

He said, these laws should be left to the states. This is strange to me.
If these laws are wrong, if they`re crazy, if they`re offending people,
then shouldn`t we get rid of them? But actions speak louder. Senator Paul
has shown he`s willing to buck his party on issues like criminal justice
reform and voting rights for ex-felons. But he`s also hedged his support
for the civil rights act, saying it needs to be modified. It`s time for
Senator Paul and other Republicans to stand up and actually fight for
everyone`s right to vote.

It is not enough to say people are offended, Senator. It`s why are they
offended? They`re offended because we always have use ID. Why do we need
new ID? They`re offended because seniors cannot afford in some cases with
fixed income to get these new IDs. They`re not offended because they have
bad attitudes. They`re offended because this is bad policy and bad law.
Say that and then act on that and then we will feel it`s a breakthrough,
not just an offhanded remark.

Thanks for watching. I`m Al Sharpton. "HARDBALL" starts right now.


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