All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, June 25th, 2014
Read the transcript from the Wednesday show
ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
June 25, 2014
Guest: Clarence Page, Robert Tracy
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris
We have a big show for you tonight. The Supreme Court has issued a
unanimous ruling on the side of common sense, which is genuinely news-
making and cause for celebrations these days. We will pop open the
champagne later in the show.
Tonight, we begin in Mississippi, where failed Tea Party insurgent
Chris McDaniel has yet to concede in the Republican primary for U.S.
After losing the runoff election last night, in a surprise upset
victory for incumbent Thad Cochran who`s political life appears to be saved
by a last ditch effort on part of his campaign to reach out to black
Get this -- turnout in last night`s runoff in the state`s majority
African-American counties was up nearly 40 percent from the primary earlier
this month, where turnout in the rest of the counties was up just 16
percent, suggesting Cochran`s margin of victory was provided by black
One such voter telling "The New York Times", quote, "You`re going to
get one of the white guys in there, you got to make a choice."
The strangeness of the spectacle of a white Republican septuagenarian
being saved by a last-minute stream of black Democratic voters in a state
that just adopted voter ID, well, that`s par for the course in the racial
politics of the South in the 21st century, in which the color line we`ve
come to think as so strong, is so definitional, is much more porous, more
much tangled than we think.
And all this week, we`ve been looking at precisely this truth in
America. Exploring the color line in the 21st century in the ways it
defies our expectations. Tonight, we have a very special investigative
piece that takes a look inside one of the most segregated cities in
America, a city whose racial separations were engineered over decades of
deliberate policymaking, a city who`s new mayor is battling the legacy
about racial strife.
ALICE GROVES MOTHER: I want to know, why did you have to kill him?
You know, why? That`s what goes in my head each and every day when I wake
up. Why? You know, why would someone just to do that to her?
HAYES (voice-over): This is a story about a murder that disappeared
and the city it disappeared in, Chicago, Illinois.
Alice Groves` daughter was found dead inside this abandoned warehouse
on Chicago`s West Side in July of 2013. The police report indicates that
the body of Tiara Groves was found naked and decomposing with evidence
suggesting she`d been bound and gagged. She was just 20 years old.
The Cook County medical examiner`s office could not determine the
specific cause, so it declared the death of Tiara Groves a homicide by
A copy of the death certificate obtained by ALL IN through Chicago
magazine also noted recent heroin and alcohol use, which it said
contributed to but was not an underlying cause of her death.
One homicide in a city where every year, there are hundreds.
Chicago is a city that is segregated both among the living and the
dead. And you can`t look at the crime rate here without seeing the legacy
of segregation and its enduring power.
LAURA WASHINGTON: You don`t see crime, you don`t hear about crime in
downtown Chicago or the north sides of the city. And when it happens, it`s
so high profile, it gets dealt with immediately. South and West Sides,
people live with crime, violence on a daily basis. If you`re not in those
neighborhoods, and you`re not because you don`t live in those neighborhoods
because the city is so segregated, you don`t know about it. It doesn`t
matter, it doesn`t happen.
HAYES: But Chicago didn`t become one of America`s most segregated
cities by accident. It was designed that way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chicago is basically segregated because people in
power for most of the 20th century decided Chicago would be segregated.
You had basically the era of red line, when you have these maps that were
produced by the federal government. Housing loans were given on the basis
on these maps.
HAYES: The red lining of Chicago neighborhoods in the 20th century
segregated people of color from white neighborhoods. The effects of these
kinds of policies were devastating to Africa-American communities and can
be seen even today in the relationship between those communities and the
people charged with keeping them safe.
WASHINGTON: There`s a long history of mistrust between African-
Americans and the police department. It dates back to the `60s when there
was a lot of police brutality. It dates back to the time when Mark Clark
and Fred Hampton were shot to death brutally by the police department.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The head of the Black Panthers of Illinois was
killed today in Chicago.
WASHINGTON: And most recently, the Jon Burge torture cases.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The case of Chicago police commander Jon Burge
fired from his job for beating and torturing suspect into confessing with a
crude electrical shock box.
WASHINGTON: There`s a feeling that the police aren`t out there for
HAYES: Of course, the consequence of citizens not believing in their
own police force can lead to a maddening cycle of mistrust and crime.
And policing a city overwhelmed by guns and gangs has proved to be an
extraordinarily difficult job.
I sat down with the man trying to tackle the city`s crime problem,
Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel.
MAYOR RAHM EMANUEL (D), CHICAGO, IL: The truth, is in some of the
neighborhoods you`re talking about, the people in the community know who
committed the crimes, who has the guns. If you want the safety you desire,
you got to live by a moral code, not a code of silence.
HAYES: That frustration with that code is silence isn`t new.
THEN-MAYOR RICHARD M. DALEY (D), CHICAGO: You can complain to the
Chicago police all you want. Look in the mirror and say, what are you
doing for it?
HAYES: For 43 of the last 60 years, Chicago was run by two Mayor
Daleys, father and son, father and son. The younger Daley is credited with
bringing a resurgence of commerce and stability to the city, a legacy of
high end restaurants and high rise offices. But on his watch, the city`s
population shrank. And during his last decade in office, poverty
And while crime, Chicago was never able to realize the kind dramatic
decreases seen in other big cities, like New York and Los Angeles.
Daley decided not to see a seventh term and was replaced by a man who
not only had ties to the city, but to the White House.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS: Chicagoans have a new mayor-elect tonight.
Rahm Emanuel, Rahm Emanuel, the former White House chief of staff, former
HAYES: Rahm Emanuel campaigned on bringing crime down and moved
quickly to bring on a new superintendent of police, Garry McCarthy, who`d
helped turnaround things in Newark, New Jersey.
Meanwhile, the city many were calling the murder capital of the
country with its new high profile mayor had attracted the attention of the
national media, and the conservative media in particular.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Chicago, new questions today about the
political leadership of that city`s mayor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The numbers do not favor Rahm Emanuel. I mean,
the number of homicides in Chicago, the same time this year to last year,
up 39 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn`t seem like Mayor Emanuel has a grasp of
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rahm Emanuel who`s supposed to be this star of
the Democratic Party, Obama`s go-to guy, it`s just gotten worse under his
HAYES: A year and a half into his tenure, leading a city with a crime
problem over 50 years in the making, Rahm Emanuel was now responsible for
Chicago, and all the troubles that had come to nest.
When the city counted the bodies in 2012, the reality was staggering,
over 500 homicides. A number that police superintendent McCarty called
tragic. The New Year came and things got even worse. January 2013 ended
with a high profile death of a 15-year-old honor student named Hadiya
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Family and friends are mourning the death of 15-
year-old Hadiya Pendleton, killed Tuesday in a quite south side
neighborhood, less than a mile from President Obama`s Chicago home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just last week, she was in Washington for the
inauguration, a member of her high school drill team.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It shouldn`t have been her. It shouldn`t have
been anyone, but especially not her.
EMANUEL: You look at her, you look at how she talked about her
future, she took her final exams. She had dreams. She is what is best in
HAYES: It was a headline grabbing wakeup call.
CLEOPATRA COWLEY-PENDLETON, MOTHER OF HADIYA PENDLETON: No mother, no
father should ever have to experience this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First Lady Michelle Obama was there to comfort a
community still in shock and a mother in the grips of grief.
WILLIAMS: Nowhere in this country is the problem of gun violence more
dramatic than in the president`s hometown.
HAYES: But then things started to turn around.
GARRY MCCARTHY, CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT: We had a good first
quarter and good second quarter. Everyone said, it`s really the third
quarter in the summer that`s going to determine how we`re doing. In June,
we were down in shootings and murders. July, the same thing. In August,
the same thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far, murders are down 26 percent from last
year, to the lowest numbers since 1965, shootings down 24 percent.
MCCARTHY: We`re not declaring victory, we`re not declaring success,
we`re declaring progress.
HAYES: That progress continued, culminating in a year end press
conference announcing a different jaw dropping reality.
MCCARTHY: Chicago is on track to have the lowest violent crime rate
since 1972, and the lowest overall crime rate since 1972. And the lowest
murder rate since 1967.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even in those neighborhoods with the most
shootings and murders, police statistics indicate the violent crime rate
has fallen. A new problem for city officials is that affected residents
don`t believe the numbers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s still people getting killed and people
still getting shot every day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do I think it`s safer? I just think -- I think
it`s about the same.
UNIDENTIFIED AMLE: I come out the daytime, and I`m back at home at
EMANUEL: We`re not going to rest until people feel the reality of
HAYES: Days later, the Chicago Police Department reclassified the
homicide of Tiara Groves as a noncriminal death investigation. That means
that the 20-year-old found with evidence that she`d been bound and gagged
in a warehouse, whose death certificate reads homicide to this day was not
counted in 2013`s homicide numbers. And the Groves family is still waiting
GROVES: It`s just, it`s a nightmare, she`s just gone. Just like
that, she`s gone. I tell everybody to cherish their loved ones while they
can. Because it`s like she`s just -- just totally disappeared out of our
life, she`s gone. She`s just gone.
HAYES: Tiara Groves` family says the police never told them that they
were reclassifying her death.
(on camera): Is there any point where the police come back to you,
the detectives come back and say, actually, we`ve determined that we don`t
have sufficient evidence to determine this a homicide, we`re reclassifying
it as a death investigation? Did they ever say that to you?
GROVES: Never. No one --
HAYES: Never. No one ever comes to you and says this is not a
HAYES: We`re so sorry.
HAYES: We don`t have enough, we just can`t do it?
GROVES: Never. Nobody come tell me nothing. Nothing at all. It`s
just like, she was a piece of trash that`s thrown away.
HAYES: The family says they first found out that Tiara Groves death
was no longer listed as a homicide because of a two-part investigation by
"Chicago" magazine reporters David Bernstein and Noah Isackson looking into
Chicago`s crime stats. They documented 10 people, including Tiara Groves
were beaten, burned, suffocated or shot to death in 2013 and who were not
included in the official homicide numbers for, in the words of the
reporters, illogical or at best, unclear reasons.
I met up with those reporters, and as we drove around Chicago, I asked
what prompted them to look into the city`s crime rates in the first place?
DAVID BERNSTEIN, CHICAGO MAGAZINE: We had been going for some time,
to some community policing meetings, which they hold regularly around -- in
the various communities around the city. And there are more and more
residents were starting to fill up these meetings, and starting to say, I
was a victim of a crime, or I witnessed a crime, or I know this will crime
happened or this crime happened and we`re very afraid.
And the police would take out a piece of paper mostly and read off the
stats. Well, you know, burglaries are down 17 percent, robberies are down
20 percent. You know, trust the stats, and people weren`t seeing these
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re looking into it now.
HAYES: In what "Chicago" magazine found according to their nearly 40
police sources, is a department where some appeared to be engaged in a
widespread practice of misclassifying other crimes too. And in some cases,
according to the reporting, making them go away all together.
NOAH ISACKSON, CHICAGO MAGAZINE: The majority of them, we were
directed to from sources. People who said, hey, you want to take a look at
this one. And it began from there.
HAYES: Over the last 20 years, more and more cities have adopted a
data-driven method of policing and crime record keeping called Comstat.
Comstat which stands for computer or comparative statistics was first
adopted citywide in New York in 1994. It maps crime trends and criminal
complaints and holds local commanders accountable at weekly meetings.
Advocates credited the stats-driven review process for New York City`s
drop in crime.
RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER NYC MAYOR: The Comstat program, the broken
windows theory and drug enforcement, I believe that those are the three
main reasons why crime is down as dramatically as it is.
HAYES: Chicago`s police superintendent Garry McCarthy is a veteran of
Comstat. He oversaw the program when he worked in the NYPD, and he
continued to use Comstat, when he ran the police department in Newark.
Then in 2011, he brought his approach to Chicago.
MCCARTHY: If you`ve been paying attention, what we`ve been doing in
the police department, we`ve been putting resources into the hands of
district commanders and holding them accountable. And the method by which
we hold them accountable is something called Comstat.
HAYES: But "Chicago" magazine reported that brand of accountability
has unintended consequences.
BERNSTEIN: Let`s remember that Comstat existed here in Chicago before
superintendent McCarthy. He brought his brand of Comstat here. So, when
he`s calling out publicly the district commanders and sort of ripping on
them in a public forum, they`re going to go back, and the message is going
to be to their guys, we can`t have this next month.
So, it becomes a sort of culture within the department where crime can
only go one way, and that`s down.
HAYES (on camera): What is the pressure -- one of the things -- you
saw this if you watched "The Wire." But if you ever reported on a big city
police department, in the Comstat era, is it`s not like people are going,
oh, let`s fudge this. If pressure comes from the top, and there`s so many
opportunities throughout the department and throughout the police force to
just nudge something over into a category.
If every individual person is accountable for their numbers, every
individual person has the incentive to do that nudging whenever they can,
ISACKSON: It`s so easy. And not only -- there`s a trickle down
effect. At the top of the chain of command has to report to the mayor.
And the pressure comes in various ways at every little rung of that ladder.
HAYES (voice-over): And that pressure, according to "Chicago"
magazine`s report, was allegedly affecting the crime stats.
BERNSTEIN: And so, that`s what we were hearing inside the department,
that a panel had been sort of assembled to review cases that weren`t
necessarily clear cut homicides. Some homicides are clear cut and those
are very difficult to fudge. But the ones we saw, and there was a pattern
with many of these cases, there were not clear cut homicide, these were
cases where the victim`s body may have been decomposed, where the medical
examiner may have determined that the person was killed but by unspecified
means. And so, they exploited some of these uncertainties to some degree
to keep them off the books.
HAYES: A couple days after "Chicago" magazine reported that homicides
were being reclassified in part because of the pressures from Comstat, the
Chicago Police Department pushed back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to get your reaction to a "Chicago"
magazine report which accuses the Chicago Police Department of
reclassifying homicides in a way to skew the numbers to make it look as
though violent crime is dropping. What`s your reaction to that story?
MCCARTHY: It`s nonsense. It`s absolute nonsense. We wrote a 26-
point, 12-page response to that magazine article.
HAYES: That written response called the magazine`s report asinine,
inaccurate and misleading among other things. It criticizes the use of
unnamed police sources and presents the department`s rebuttal on each of
the specific cases detailed in the report. In the case of Tiara Groves,
the Chicago PD response points to word from witnesses, quote, "the victim
Groves was experiencing medical distress earlier in the day."
It goes on to stress it remains an active investigation. Quote, "We
continue to believe the case is suspicious, but do not have enough
information to prove her death was a murder and to classify it as such."
However, the Chicago Police Department did confirm to ALL IN that the
Tiara Groves case was reclassified from a homicide to a noncriminal death
investigation. "Chicago" magazine stands by its reporting.
But they weren`t the only ones looking into Chicago`s crime stats.
The city`s inspector general has just conducted an audit which focused on
the sampling of 383 assault related cases.
JOSEPH FERGUSON, INSPECTOR GENERAL, CHICAGO: We found on the basis of
the specific things that we looked at, we didn`t see any basis to think
that the books were being cooked.
HAYES: But the inspector general did find some errors in the police
department`s 2012 data, where some crimes were reported by incident rather
than by the number of victims involved.
(on camera): A shooting happens, nonfatal shooting happens on a
corner -- on a Saturday in June. Eight people are shot. Spray of gunfire.
That`s going into the system as one crime?
HAYES: But that`s not one crime from the perspective of the FBI, or
from the perspective of -- if you`re one of those victims or three of those
victims, you`re not thinking about it as one crime.
FERGUSON: Look, from a person on the street perspective, absolutely,
you could think of it as eight crimes, there`s eight victims. I`m not sure
that there is a particular value to be placed on which way you reported.
What was important to us was, once that information flowed into a victim
based reporting rubric, that it`d be done accurately, so that when people
are looking at the victim based reporting numbers, they`re getting what
actually occurred. Eight people had been shot. It`s eight separate
HAYES (voice-over): The audit found that about a quarter of Chicago`s
aggravated assault and battery cases in 2012 failed to get counted in
Chicago police statistics reported to the FBI. That incident based
accounting method predates Mayor Rahm Emanuel. Since it was flagged as
incorrect by the inspector general, the Chicago P.D. has begun a review
process to fix it.
And looking beyond that reporting error, the mayor says he`s proud of
his administration`s record of reducing crime.
EMANUEL: Overall crime has declined as homicide lows since `71.
HAYES (on camera): How did that happen? I mean, the drop is
EMANUEL: The way I look at it and the way we`re doing this, I have a
strategy that came out, working with President Clinton on the `94 crime
bill, I was a point person in the White House. Simply put, it`s about
putting more police on the street, doing community policing, and getting
kids, guns and drugs off the street.
HAYES: There was this big investigative piece by "Chicago" magazine
two parts, questioning the stats, basically, saying we talked to -- we have
cops anonymously saying, they call it the washing machine. They identified
some cases of individual homicides, appeared that they should have been
classified as such.
Do you have full faith of these statistics?
EMANUEL: Absolutely. The superintendent of the police department
leadership, very focused on intelligence, data-driven focus, through
different methods and you can`t do what you need to do -- the numbers are
being messed with, number one.
Number two, even the inspector general has complimented the Chicago
Police Department for the integrity of their number. It doesn`t mean that
you have -- you can`t focus on if there are challenges all the time, but on
the basic thrust and integrity of the numbers, absolutely.
HAYES: We had seen in other cities this has happened, in which
pressure has brought to bear, Comstat is introduced and there`s a cascade
of pressure that developed, in which you have police officers --
EMANUEL: Let me say this, the reason I think this a little -- first
of all, I`m firm about the integrity of any data, whether it`s financial
crime or educational or any area because you`re making decisions, that
information, integrity and the appreciation of that. If that was the case,
then somebody else would have been playing with the 2012 numbers. What
2012 was it relates to, what 2013s numbers are. So, I don`t buy that.
HAYES (voice-over): Many in the city government want some
clarification on those numbers. More than a third of the city council has
signed on to one of two different resolutions calling for hearings into the
city`s crime stats.
Alderman Scott Waguespack sponsored one of them. He represents a
relatively affluent neighborhood on the north side of Chicago`s 32nd ward.
And he told me he just doesn`t believe the stats.
ALDERMAN SCOTT WAGUESPACK (D), CHICAGO: I think what happened, they
started playing with the numbers, in the way they were keeping the stats.
HAYES (on camera): So, you think the statistics are not true?
WAGUESPACK: I don`t think they`re true. I don`t think the way
they`ve portrayed them from the police department is true, and I don`t
think the way the mayor has handled the issue or tried to put this veneer
on it is right either.
I`ve heard from officers who have said -- and some of them are
retired, who said, hey, we were supposed to meet certain numbers and that`s
what we were told to do, and that`s what we did. Just to make sure things
To me, that says a lot about what`s going on. That`s just in the last
few years. Now, if that`s not true, I want the superintendent to come
before the public and say it.
HAYES (voice-over): The Superintendent Garry McCarthy is recovering
from a heart attack and on medical leave. But I did get to talk with one
of his top deputies, Robert Tracy, the chief of crime control strategies
for Chicago P.D.
ROBERT TRACY, CHICAGO P.D.: We`ve been speaking with elected
officials. We speak to anybody in the public, we speak to the press. We
welcome anyone to take a look at what we`re doing and we will explain it
piece by piece, ensure that the perceptions there, and to ensure that they
know the Chicago police department and the city of Chicago is putting
accurate numbers out there.
And we know it is, we know we are, and we would welcome that and any
kind of review by the city council, if they`re going to do that, we would
be happy to explain to them.
HAYES: I asked chief Tracy to explain why Tiara Groves death was
classified from a homicide to a noncriminal death investigation.
(on camera): Just that I understand you right, you said there was
some new information that came through to investigators that prompted this
TRACY: Yes, we review all homicide, murder cases. We do a review, we
look at the evidence. We look at sometimes new information. I can`t go
into the detail.
TRACY: But there could be new information that comes in from the
M.E..`s office, and that specific -- I`m not going to talk specifics to
this case, but we could have findings that come back out, new evidence,
witnesses, and as we tie the case together. We could take that
investigation to make it a murder or we can go the other way. We can
reclassify it in a different direction.
And as I said, this is still a death investigation, so it can at one
time maybe be classified as a murder again.
HAYES (voice-over): In a series of conversations with ALL IN, CPD
repeatedly insisted not only that their crime statistics are above board,
but that they are running possibly the most transparent police department
in the nation.
To this day, Tiara Groves case can`t be found in the city`s crime data
portal, she disappeared from her home in July of last year, and her case
disappeared from the city`s database five months later.
And after decades of segregation, high crime, poverty and mistrust,
the Chicago Police Department and the city`s new mayor still have a lot to
prove to those like Alice Groves live on the wrong side of the city`s color
GROVES: The only thing we want them to do is put it back as a
homicide and get back on their job. Reclassify it back and get back on
HAYES: In the course of reporting this story, we had long exchanges
with the Chicago Police Department to make sure we were fairly representing
their side of the story. I got to interview someone from the department
who heads up crime control strategies, and he responded to the questions
raised by our report. That interview is next.
HAYES: My interview with the man in charge of crime control
strategies for the Chicago police department, Chief Robert Tracy. That`s
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WAGUESPACK: The police department and the mayor`s office are saying,
no, crime is down, don`t worry about it, and that`s where I think a lot of
people are saying, things have gotten out of control, in terms of keeping
the stats, keeping the numbers, and what`s real out there on the street.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Alderman Scott Waguespack of Chicago`s 32nd ward has
introduced a resolution to the city council calling for hearings on the
reliability of the Chicago police department`s crime numbers and for the
superintendent to testify on them. He and some of his constituents are
skeptical about whether the drop in crime you`re hearing about from the CPD
and from Mayor Rahm Emanuel is showing up in their neighborhoods.
I got an opportunity to speak with one of the Chicago police
superintendent`s top deputies, Chief Robert Tracy, who`s in charge of the
department`s crime control strategies. I began by asking him what
strategies the department has deployed to bring crime down.
TRACY: It begins with leadership, it begins with accountability. We
have a Comstat system that`s been put in place. We flattened the
organization, and there`s several different strategies involved, we talk
some strategy, coupled with programs that come from Mayor Rahm Emanuel to
address at risk youth and youth overall.
We work with all of the city agencies, we work the community, we are
working with the clergy and the elected officials. And I think that as a
whole has helped us reduce the violence. I think everybody has skin in the
game, and because of that, it`s helped us reduce the violence.
HAYES: So, it`s not just a policing strategy. It`s a more
comprehensive strategy in terms of policing, combined with community
activities, opportunities for at-risk youth kind of all working together?
TRACY: Yes, absolutely.
We can`t go this alone. And the more inclusive we are and more
transparent about what we`re doing, this is why we`re having some of the
successes that we`re having in Chicago.
HAYES: You talked about the CompStat program, which obviously has
been adopted widely in a number of cities. It was touted for its great
success in New York.
Chicago had CompStat before the superintendent came in and the new
mayor came in. Are there changes to the way that you guys are employing
that data or using the data to monitor your resources or policing in the
new era under Mayor Emanuel and the superintendent, McCarthy?
TRACY: Well, yes, I believe every department has accountability
programs, but it wasn`t run the same way that we`re running it now.
We really modeled it after the New York City program and basically the
experience of Superintendent McCarthy and myself, being veterans of the
NYPD. We came up in that methodology. We brought it here to Chicago, we
put the right leadership in place, we put accountability to the leadership,
and we have given them decisions to make, and given the resources at the
And we give them the authority to make the decisions and we hold them
accountable to that. And I think that`s been a little bit of a change,
where it`s not being driven top down. We`re actually holding them
accountable. But we`re giving them the resources to make a difference
within the crime in local areas.
HAYES: One of the criticisms that`s been leveled at CompStat in other
cities -- and this was true in New York, particularly the beginning of its
adoption -- is that the pressure to meet quotas and numbers, the kind of
berating that district commanders might get if they were -- had a high
crime spike for a week, that that would push down to the organization and
give an incentive for even beat cops at the margins try to fudge, try to
downgrade things, try to make sure that the numbers lined up with what the
bosses wanted in a way that didn`t necessarily reflect what`s happening in
How do you guard against that kind of gaming?
TRACY: Well, the one thing is, is that we`re as transparent as
In no way, if you have some crime, you have spikes in your district,
those commanders that come to CompStat, it`s not so much if there`s crime
that is going up. Where it gets the commanders in trouble is not knowing
where the crime is and not having a plan to deal with it.
So, we have to make sure that they are accountable to what`s
happening. And they will drive that accountability down. We have
safeguards in place through a process that there`s checks and balances, as
far as where crime is classified, and it`s reviewed at different stages to
ensure that nobody`s downgrading crime and we keep the integrity of the
HAYES: Obviously, the integrity of those numbers have been questioned
by this big "Chicago" magazine two-part report. I know that your
department felt it basically wasn`t worth the paper it was printed on,
pushed back hard.
There are though members of city council now who are asking for an
audit or for the superintendent to come before the city council and explain
the numbers. How do you convince the people of Chicago and the city
council of Chicago that these numbers are what they appear to be?
TRACY: Well, I think it begins -- I talked about it already, the
We probably lead the nation in transparency data that we push out to
the public. We voluntarily share it, we do it day by day, we do it week by
week, we do it year by year, and that`s on a data portal that`s online.
And the public can see this information block by block, district by beat,
by area, and we welcome anybody to take a look at those numbers do a
comparative analysis, because the only way we`re going to get better is to
have accurate data.
HAYES: There`s been a history of a lot of distrust between the
Chicago Police Department and a lot of the communities that the department
is tasked with policing, and that seems back decades. It`s a product of a
lot of things that have nothing to do with you or your boss or the mayor.
Where do you see the department in its progress towards bridging that
gap of mistrust that characterizes so many of the relationships between CPD
and so many of the communities they police?
TRACY: We have police legitimacy and procedural justice classes that
the whole department is being trained in.
And this is almost a sensitivity training in how we deal with the
public. We`re trying to bridge that gap, community policing, same police
officers on the same beats every day, the accountability that we put in
place to ensure that the citizens of Chicago are getting the service from
the police officers and they`re being treated fairly.
And because of that, it`s going to take a little while. We have a lot
of work to do. Listen, we have made some strides in the Chicago Police
Department reducing crime. But we have a way to go to gain the community
trust and bring crime down further.
HAYES: Final question. Just -- I don`t know if you know the answer
to this, but do you know if the department contacted the family of Tiara
Groves` surviving family just to let them know that there had been a change
to the classification of this case and keep them abreast of that?
TRACY: I would rather not answer that.
I mean, the aspects of this case, it`s not good for me to talk about
that, for obvious reasons.
TRACY: But we do stay in touch with the victims` families. We keep
them updated as the status of the cases, and we`re actively investigating
this case at this time.
HAYES: Chief Robert Tracy was pretty candid in that interview about
the Chicago Police Department having a long way to go to gain the trust of
Coming up, we`re going to talk to someone who covered crime in the
city of Chicago for years to get his take on all this. Stay tuned.
HAYES: Take a look at this map of Chicago we showed you earlier in
the show. It`s a red lining map. The areas in red are parts of the city
where from the 1930s at least until the late 1960s, you could not basically
get a home loan simply because of where you lived.
This was just the latest of a long line of strategies that people in
power in Chicago employed to keep black people in certain neighborhoods.
Get this. Back in 1917, the city`s real estate board actually tried to
pass explicit racial zoning laws, making it so that in the same way you
can`t open a commercial building in a residential neighborhood, you could
not have a black family move in on a white street.
That same year, the Supreme Court ruled the practice unconstitutional.
So, Chicago turned to another method known as restrictive covenants,
contractual agreements written into the deeds that legally barred property
owners from leasing or selling to African-Americans.
By 1940, it was estimated that 80 percent of Chicago housing was
covered by those contracts. When the Supreme Court ruled against them in
1948, the practice of red lining stepped in to keep packing black residents
into disadvantaged neighborhoods.
That`s the city of Chicago. It`s what made the city look the way it
does today. And everyone who has been living there since the second half
of the 20th century has been living with the legacy of those practices.
Up next, I`m going to talk to someone who knows as well as anyone does
what all this has wrought in the second city.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The police said to you, you people don`t understand?
ALICE GROVES, MOTHER: Yes, they did. I`m not going to give you their
names, but, yes, they did say that to me, you people.
HAYES: What do you think he meant by that?
GROVES: When he said you peoples? I won`t even say it, but it speaks
for itself, you peoples. It speaks for itself, because who is you people?
You people is me and my family.
So, what I mean by family, nationality, OK? You people, our
nationality is African-American, black. So, like I say, it speaks for
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: When it comes to talking about crime and policing in any major
city in America, but particularly in the city of Chicago, you cannot escape
the shadow that race casts over it.
In fact, you can look at Chicago as a bunch of different cities, some
quite safe, and mostly white, while others are mostly not white and
unfortunately far less safe.
So, when it comes to Chicago, the severity of crime you experience is
often dependent upon the color of your skin.
Joining me now, Clarence Page. He`s been covering the city of Chicago
since the early `70s, including sometimes as a reporter on the crime beat
for "The Chicago Tribune." Now he`s a syndicated columnist, Pulitzer Prize
winner and member of the editorial board of "The Chicago Tribune."
And, Clarence, set the scene for the way in which you got this very
intensely segregated city and this diffusion such that the city can be
experiencing high crime rates, but it`s so concentrated in certain
neighborhoods, that it doesn`t kind of play throughout the city in the way
it might in another place where crime was more prevalent throughout.
CLARENCE PAGE, COLUMNIST, "THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE": That`s very true,
And thank you very much for having me on.
I say I have been blessed over the last 40 years almost of being able
to see Chicago come out of the last days of the old industrial age and into
the new age that we`re in now. And what I have seen is the city has
desegregated by race, but resegregated by class.
What that`s meant is that when I came along back in the `70s, I
remember on the police beat, it was pretty standard. If I covered a
homicide, somewhere in a low-income, nonwhite neighborhood, the immediate
response from the city desk would be cheap it out, which meant two or three
inches worth of copy that may or may not get into the newspaper.
Today, we`re in the Internet age, so every Monday morning now, you
look on "The Tribune"`s front Web page, and you will see a report of the
latest roundup of homicides, regardless of what neighborhood they`re in.
But what this has meant is, in recent years, Emory University did a
study a couple years ago that found, in recent years, the homicide rate has
gone down in the city overall, but in the areas where people are
concentrated who used to live in the public housing developments -- and we
had the biggest public housing developments in the country -- they were
demolished under the second Mayor Daley and the second President Bush.
And that was a good reform, but the unintended consequences were
concentration of low-income people displaced into these neighborhoods,
where we`re seeing the high homicide rates now. And so you can have a
wonderful festival going on downtown at Grant Park or whatever and you can
have what appears to be a bloodbath out in maybe Englewood or the North
Lawndale on the West Side.
HAYES: And on the West Side and parts of the South Side, parts that
have been historically under-resourced and poor and higher crime.
PAGE: That`s right.
HAYES: You have also got a situation in which there is a lot of
mistrust of the police. And that extends back. Chicago`s had a very low
homicide clearance rate for years, largely due to the fact that people
don`t talk to the cops.
PAGE: That`s the complaint, that there`s a lack of cooperation, but
when you look at what the history has been on the streets, police-community
relations has not always been great. There was a marked improvement back
in the `90s, when it became the trend across the country in big cities.
But, still, take your average witness to a crime. On the one side,
they have got the police who in their district may or may not have good
relations with the populace. And you have got on the other side
gangbangers who say, if you say a word, you`re going to get offed.
And that`s the kind of pressure people are under, so that there`s a
big job that has to be done as far as improving community relations.
HAYES: In reporting Chicago, I was struck by this fact.
Let`s say that the Chicago Police Department`s statistics are true,
and the stats are not being juked. There is still a huge gap between the
perception of crime in the city, and, frankly, the perception of the mayor,
Mayor Rahm Emanuel, the perception and what the department and what the
mayor are saying about the state of the city.
And that goes past crime. I was really struck by how angry folks are
frankly on the South and West Side of Chicago at this mayor.
PAGE: Yes, there`s a lot of anger.
And it`s -- well, the homicide rate began to surge right after Mayor
Emanuel cut about 1,400 positions from the police department as part of a
citywide budget reduction. It was necessary. The city`s essentially
broke, and the state is the most in debt out of the 50.
So you have got a lot of cost-cutting going on. At the same time, you
had this massive influx of low-income people from the public housing
developments into new neighborhoods, and the crime began to surge. And you
had a lot of anger in the police department over the job cutbacks.
PAGE: The Fraternal Order of Police is quite upset about that.
And that colors everybody`s perceptions. I have even had police
officers calling me to talk about how the statistics have been monkeyed
with. And that`s the sort of thing that`s not good overall for the kind of
law enforcement and what have -- or for the public perceptions that crime
is really improving.
HAYES: It`s a very difficult city to be the mayor of, I should say,
having lived there.
PAGE: It`s tough.
HAYES: It`s a city -- it`s a city I love just deeply.
PAGE: At the same time, there`s no candidate arising up right now who
poses a challenge to Rahm Emanuel, very much like what happened in the last
days of the second Mayor Daley.
HAYES: We`re going to see. That race will be very interesting.
Clarence Page from "The Chicago Tribune," thank you so much.
PAGE: Yes. Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: All right, coming up, special sneak peek at tomorrow`s "ALL IN
America" story. You don`t want to miss that. Stick around.
HAYES: For more on our "ALL IN America" reporting, including sneak
peeks of this week`s stories and behind-the-scenes photos, you can head to
HAYES: Today is the one-year anniversary of Texas State Senator Wendy
Davis` nearly 13-hour filibuster on the floor of the Texas State Senate,
where she stalled a restrictive anti-abortion bill that would eventually
Tomorrow, we will have an exclusive interview with the Democratic
candidate of Texas. Also tomorrow, "ALL IN America" continues with a
report out of North Carolina, where one man is trying to pull off one of
the hardest things in all of politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: You a Democrat or Republican?
ADAM O`NEAL (R), MAYOR OF BELHAVEN, NORTH CAROLINA: Republican.
O`NEAL: All my life.
HAYES: You ever thought you would be working with the president of
NAACP from North Carolina?
O`NEAL: No, no, I never did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: All right, let`s say you`re driving 70 miles an hour in a 55-
mile-per-hour zone, and your handy-dandy cell phone is with you and a cop
pulls you over.
Question: Can he just search your phone and everything on it? Can he
look through your photos? Can he look at your inbox say, aha, look at
this, this guy`s engaged in a criminal conspiracy?
I think all of us have a pretty intuitive sense he clearly cannot.
It`s not what the founders envisioned when they wrote the Fourth Amendment
of the U.S. Constitution and talked about the right of the people to be
secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable
searches and seizures.
And yet in the case of Riley vs. California, David Riley was pulled
over in San Diego in 2009. Police also found loaded guns in his car and
they searched his smartphone. Using information on it led to a conviction
of attempted murder.
The California appeals court said no warrant was necessary to search
that phone. This and another case involving a flip phone and its call log
came before the Supreme Court.
Now, before I tell you how the Supreme Court ruled today, let me just
remind you that only a few months ago, in a 5-4 decision, the court said
you could be constitutionally strip-searched for any arrest.
And yet today, the Supreme Court in a 9-0 unanimous decision, said,
no, no, police may not search your phone during an arrest unless they get a
warrant. The court`s opinion, authored by Chief Justice John Roberts, said
that today`s phones aren`t just phones. "They could just as easily be
called cameras, video players, Rolodexes, calenders, tape recorders,
libraries, diaries, albums, televisions, maps, or newspapers." He left out
"Therefore, a cell phone search would typically expose to the
government far more than the most exhaustive search of a house."
The search of a house typically requires a search warrant. So the
search of a phone should also require a search warrant. Of course, the
court also noted how easy it is for police to get a warrant these days.
Sometimes, all they have to do is just e-mail a judge.
And the court said no warrant is necessary when there`s an immediate
threat of danger. Still, this was a big, good moment for the court today.
It was a big victory for privacy, and a big victory for common sense.
And the biggest and most controversial case of this entire term, the
one we have all been covering and waiting for, the case over whether
corporations have actual First Amendment religious protections, that case,
the decision, it is going to be released any day now.
And that is ALL IN for this evening.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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