updated 7/14/2014 9:15:17 AM ET 2014-07-14T13:15:17

ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
July 11, 2014

Guest: Dan Kildee, Rachel Pearson, Thomas Mann, Connie Schultz; Sen.
Sherrod Brown; Bomani Jones

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.

JEH JOHNSON, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: Our border is not open
to illegal migration.

HAYES: The humanitarian crisis on the border. DHS says it is running
out of money to deal with the situation.

And the militia has landed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are here to assist law enforcement.

HAYES: All the latest from the border, including the disease
hysteria.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Measles, scabies and lice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know all the diseases.

HAYES: Tonight, a report claiming migrant kids are likely better
vaccinated than Texas kids.

Then, John Boehner`s lawsuit against the president.

SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER ALASKA GOVERNOR: You don`t bring a lawsuit to
a gunfight.

HAYES: Questionable politically. But what about the merits?

And, there has been another decision.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: LeBron is coming. LeBron is coming.

(CHEERS)

HAYES: The greatest athlete on planet Earth is returning to
Cleveland, Ohio.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s forgiven.

HAYES: Tonight, my exclusive interview with the senator who recruited
him home.

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: I`d love to have LeBron back.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Good evening from Chicago. I`m Chris Hayes.

The homeland security secretary was on the southern border today,
tackling the humanitarian crisis unfolding there. This just he`s issued a
dire warning to Congress two key border agencies will start to run out of
money by mid-August, thanks to the rising cost of dealing with the surge of
unaccompanied immigrant children showing up every day.

Jeh Johnson visited the border facilities in New Mexico and Texas
after announcing this week that the total number of unaccompanied minors
apprehended at the border could break 90,000 by the end of the fiscal year,
just 2 1/2 months away.

As of this week, 57,000 immigrant children have been apprehended since
October, alone.

And as Congress considers the president`s request for $3.7 billion to
tackle the crisis, there`s talk now of a compromise to change the law
governing the treatment of unaccompanied children from Central America,
streamlining how they are processed. It`s a change the Obama
administration supports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: We`re asking, and this will be in a separate submission, for
the ability to treat unaccompanied kids from the Central American countries
in the same way we would someone from a contiguous country, so that we have
the ability to offer them involuntary return, which the kids from Mexico do
accept.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Republican Senator John Cornyn and Democratic Congressman
Henry Cuellar, my guest from the other night, both from Texas, plan to go
one step further, introducing a bill next week that would completely undo
certain protections from unaccompanied minors from Central America.

But a rising chorus of Democratic legislators is raising concerns over
the due process rights of these children who are, after all, fleeing some
of the worst violence in the world outside of war zones -- which means they
may be able to apply for asylum.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILLINOIS: They get their day in court as the
law mandates. I plan to support the president`s budget request, but we
must make sure we do not short-circuit justice for the children. And I
think all of us agree that that is a top priority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Some Democrats are even calling for a change in the way these
children are designated, with New Jersey Congressman Rush Holt saying,
quote, "They are refugees. That`s how we can start by using the
appropriate language."

Joining me now, Congressman Dan Kildee, Democrat from Michigan. He`s
facing this issue in his home district right now.

Congressman, do you agree with your fellow Congressman Rush Holt that
we should be calling them refugees?

REP. DAN KILDEE (D), MICHIGAN: Well, the term sure fits. I mean, I
call them children. I mean, too often, we take terminology to try to
dehumanize what is essentially a humanitarian crisis. Children who are in
danger, who are seeking some kind of refuge in the United States. So, in
that sense, I guess refugee might be the proper term.

HAYES: Do you share the same concerns as Congressman Gutierrez and
other advocates and other members of Congress that the legislation that is
being put forth would strip away the possibility that these children would
have to have their day in court, to make their claim that they are, in
fact, they meet the legal requirements for asylum in the U.S. given what
they are fleeing?

KILDEE: I am concerned about it. I do think it makes sense to hasten
the process of making the decision about the cases, about each case on an
individual basis, but I think it`s a dangerous precedent to start thinking
that we were wrong in 2008, when almost the entire Congress and President
Bush enacted a law that was intended to protect children who are at risk,
who are at risk of being used in sex trafficking or at risk of great
violence.

I mean, it has been long part of our history to protect children from
danger. And that`s what we`re talking about here. I think we need to keep
that in mind.

HAYES: Congressman, you`re from Michigan and yet this issue has
managed to erupt in your very own district. What`s going on there?

KILDEE: Well, there`s a facility in my district, in a rural part of
my district, that is being considered as one of the locations for temporary
housing. And, you know, unfortunately, the loudest voices have been the
voices that are raising all sorts of I think unfounded claims and concerns
about what would happen in our community if this facility was used to house
these young people for a temporary period of time. Hopefully, calmer
voices will prevail.

This gets to what I think really is a problem here. Unfortunately,
some members of the government, some members of Congress particularly have
been using extreme speech in the context of the president`s actions,
calling his actions unlawful.

There are consequences to using that sort of speech. They may know
what they`re doing. They`re trying to create a narrative that helps them
in the elections. What they`re also doing is whipping up the sentiments of
people who don`t really understand law, don`t really understand that it`s a
political theater that they`re engaged in -- these Republicans that are
using this hateful speech.

But then you have citizens who don`t think about politics every day,
who are concerned -- you know, in some cases for legitimate reasons -- but
are conflating this situation with a larger and very necessary conversation
about immigration in general. And it`s really frightening to see them
whipped up over something that is really not the kind of concern, shouldn`t
be the kind of concern that they`re talking about. These are children who
need to be protected. Who can be against that?

HAYES: Finally, the House Appropriations chair, Hal Rogers,
Republican, said it`s too much money, speaking of the White House request.
Do you think this is going it die in the House?

KILDEE: I hope not. I mean, if in the Senate, $30 billion is not too
much money to create an army at the southern border, $3.7 billion to really
mitigate this problem and prevent the need for more border security, it
makes an awful lot of sense to me. I think it`s the right thing. It`s the
right amount and I think we should proceed on it.

HAYES: Congressman Dan Kildee -- thank you very much.

KILDEE: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: If the specter of under-resourced U.S. border agencies running
out of money in the midst of a humanitarian crisis sounds worrying,
consider this -- citizen militia groups are now threatening to take it upon
themselves to patrol the border.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: We are in the town of Von Ormy, Texas, where about a mile
away from here, the militia claims to be in the early stages of forming.

Commander Chris Davis agreed to speak with us if we did not show his
face.

CHRIS DAVIS: We are here to assist law enforcement due to various
reasons. One being that it costs overtime and stuff for border patrol and
all these extra agents being sent down there, to the lack of manpower, to
seal the border effectively.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Despite the fact we`re largely talking about scared children
arriving alone in a foreign country, many in Texas and elsewhere have come
to view them as a real threat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROTESTERS: We want --

Justice!

When do we want it?

Now!

REPORTER: Carrying signs that read, "Irrational fear is not the
solution," a small group of protesters gathered outside city hall has
League City residents took turns speaking for and against an ordinance that
would ban the processing and detention of illegal immigrants within the
city limits.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: This week, League City, Texas, became the first town in the
state to ban migrant children from entering the municipality, citing among
other things, a need to, quote, "control the potential threat of
communicable diseases reported to be prevalent among illegal aliens."

It`s become a common theme in conservative coverage of the border
crisis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Americans, we could all be at risk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My sources inside a camp for illegals at Lackland
Air Force Base say it`s one giant emergency room.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Measles, scabies, and lice ran rampant among the
immigrants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t even know all the diseases and how
extensive the diseases are.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These are diseases sometimes that they`re
bringing in that our doctors are not used to seeing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you have people that are homeless and have all
sorts of diseases invading neighborhoods and you`re not made aware that
they`re coming, that`s a big problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say kids have scabies. They also say they
have chickenpox, and all-out epidemic of lice so severe they say the bugs
can be seen crawling down the faces of the children.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

HAYES: The fears of disease among the unaccompanied migrant children
coming up from Central America are vastly overblown. As documented in an
excellent piece, out today in the "Texas Observer." In fact, when it comes
to infectious diseases, children in the Central American countries where
most of the children are coming from are often more likely to be vaccinated
than American children.

For example, UNICEF reports that 93 percent of kids in Guatemala,
Honduras, and El Salvador are vaccinated against measles. That`s better
than American kids at 92 percent. Last year, one of the largest measles
outbreaks in recent history happened in Texas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: This sprawling Texas mega church near Ft. Worth is the
epicenter of the outbreak say health officials.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And today, Lord, I thank you.

REPORTER: At least 16 cases have originated here, seven adults, nine
children. The youngest, 4 months old. And many home schooled. Officials
say 11 had no measles vaccines, with no medical records of complete measles
vaccines for the others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That outbreak helped make last year the highest annual case
count in over 20 years in the state of Texas.

Meanwhile, as noted by "The Texas Observer", neither Guatemala nor
Honduras has had a reported case of measles since 1990.

Joining me now, Rachel Pearson, who wrote that piece in "The Texas
Observer." She`s a MD-PhD student at the University of Texas.

Rachel, what prompted you to write the piece?

RACHEL PEARSON, THE TEXAS OBSERVER: Well, I was really concerned
about the fear that people are bringing up about these kids being a disease
threat. We should be concerned about children from Central America who
have made this long journey, who have been trafficked, who come from
violent places. We should be concerned about their health, but we
shouldn`t think of them as a health threat to Americans, because frankly,
if you look at the facts, especially with respect to vaccine-preventable
diseases, these kids are more likely to be vaccinated than kids in Texas.

HAYES: So, you`re someone who studies public health, MD-PhD. You`d
just think there`s nothing there, just as a matter of basic -- the basic
facts of this from a public health perspective, this scare-mongering about
them, these kids, a public health threat, is just not really -- there`s no
there, there.

PEARSON: Well, I do think there are some diseases of concern, but
most of the ones that these kids are at risk for are coming up and are a
problem because of crowding and unsanitary conditions in the detention
centers.

So, a lot of the media folks have been talking about lice and scabies.
Those -- you know, if kids do have lice and scabies, it`s likely those
parasites are spreading because they`re not able to wash their bedding
frequently. They`re not able to wash their clothes frequently because of
unsanitary conditions that we`ve created in detention centers.

HAYES: In other words, the detention centers, the overcrowding in
them, is producing the environment in which these kinds of illnesses or
parasites might spread?

PEARSON: Absolutely. And if we want these kids to be safe, we need
to move them quickly into the safety of homes with families.

HAYES: I got to say, I`ve been looking at some of the sort of
coverage of this and the obsession with the disease. And there`s just
something really, for lack of a better word, creepy about talking about
kids who -- you know, in elementary school, there were kids in the Bronx
where I grew up who had lice all the time. Anyone I`ve ever known who went
to school, grade school, or remembers it.

It`s not like these are this sort of signals that these people, these
fellow human beings, these children, are somehow unclean in some way that
represents a threat to American purity.

PEARSON: Absolutely. So, if you think of kids in a summer camp in
Pennsylvania getting lice, that doesn`t some like a huge threat to the
American populace.

HAYES: Right.

PEARSON: And it`s the same disease.

What we see historically is that when diseases or conditions occur in
people who are social outsiders, so immigrants, people of color, women --
those diseases are seen by whiter society as markers that the people are
impure or that they`re lacking in virtue. So, whereas lice has one meaning
for American kids in a summer camp in Pennsylvania, the meaning becomes
totally different if it`s a group of kids we think of as outsiders.

HAYES: Rachel Pearson, thank you so much. Great piece.

PEARSON: Thanks.

HAYES: John Boehner wants the House of Representatives to sue the
president, but will he get laughed out of court? That`s ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

HAYES: Since that video made the rounds a few years ago, things are
looking up for Cleveland, especially this week. I`ll talk about LeBron`s
big news with Cleveland`s power couple, Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist
Connie Schultz, and her husband, Senator Sherrod Brown -- ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Nothing says tyranny quite like IRS transitional relief on
enforcement of the employer mandate provision of the Affordable Care Act.

But that, it turns out, the idea behind House Speaker John Boehner`s
lawsuit against President Barack Obama. The lawsuit announced this week to
create fanfare, the speaker`s office saying in part, quote, "In 2013, the
president changed the health care law without a vote of Congress,
effectively creating his own law by literally waiving the employer mandate
and penalties for failing to comply with it. No president should have the
authority to make laws on his or her own."

And just about everyone watching the spectacle unfolds, across the
political spectrum, left and right, understands it as a nakedly political
stunt, a way to channel the Republican base desire into something that
isn`t quite impeachment.

But there will be a real lawsuit. And Speaker Boehner`s statement
makes clear it will be based on President Obama`s delay of the employer
mandate of Affordable Care Act until 2015. That mandate requires employers
with 50 or more employees to offer health insurance to those employees or
pay a penalty. The lawsuit is expected to be authorized by a House
resolution to be voted on this month.

Now, whether anyone takes the lawsuit seriously, that`s an open
question we`re going to get to. But if somehow the suit does succeed,
here`s the grand irony. Presumably the relief that would be granted, if
House Republicans were to prevail, would be to immediately implement the
employer mandate of the Affordable Care Act, in other words, to immediately
enforce part of the law that House Republicans have voted to repeal more
than 50 times.

Joining me now is Thomas Mann, senior fellow at the Brookings
Institution. He`s co-author of "It`s Even Worse Than It Looks."

Tom, is there precedent for this kind of lawsuit?

THOMAS MANN, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Not in this form. Certainly, we
haven`t had a situation where the entire chamber of Congress sues the
president for failing to implement a provision of a public law. We`ve had
individual members and groups of members say, even a committee, sue an
executive branch official over a subpoena. Something like that. But
nothing comes close to --

HAYES: Nothing like this.

MANN: -- what we`re seeing here.

HAYES: So, the idea here is that this house resolution will mean that
the House of Representatives as a body will sue the president and that has
never before in American history happened.

MANN: That`s correct. Absolutely correct.

HAYES: So, what are the obstacles as a legal matter? I mean, given
the fact this is novel, right? It has never happened before. I would
suspect there are some obstacles to it even getting a hearing in court.

MANN: Well, there really are. I mean, the first is the problem of
standing. The courts take on cases and controversies. One needs an
aggrieved plaintiff saying the president`s failure to implement this
section of this law has caused me this harm.

HAYES: Right.

MANN: And that creates a basis for the case being considered by the
court.

But there is no harm that has been caused to anyone as far as we can
tell, and certainly not those members of the House who will vote to
authorize the speaker to bring a lawsuit against the president.

HAYES: Right. You could -- you could imagine, perhaps, if you were
sitting around in a law school session that some small business employer
with less than 50 employees is somehow disadvantaged in the marketplace by
the delayed enforcement of the employer mandate. Maybe they would bring a
suit and say, look, my competitors don`t have to do this. But that`s the
actual person being injured. It`s not the members of Congress.

MANN: Well, that`s right. That`s why the courts in the past when
seeing any form of litigation carried against the president or the
executive branch have usually been very tough, first of all, on standing.
If the suit manages to pass that hurdle, then, they really have to pass the
other hurdle that there is no alternative remedy to deal with this harm.

HAYES: Right.

MANN: There`s nothing the Congress could do and, therefore, the court
has to enter the political thicket between the presidency and the Congress
to resolve a matter that`s supposed to be dealt with by the two bodies.

HAYES: Right. And there`s a long tradition and precedent of courts
not entering into what is technically called justiciable political
questions, which is to say we can understand these two branches get at each
other throats in the normal business of politics and balance of powers, and
we`re very reluctant to get in between the two of them.

MANN: That`s absolutely right. That doesn`t mean they never get
involved. We just had a case with --

HAYES: Yes.

MANN: -- recess appointments in which the court acted rather
aggressively. Although their decision was hedged and limited, as is
classic for the Roberts court. So, they do enter in on occasion, but this
seems so ludicrous.

HAYES: Yes.

MANN: The whole case is, in fact, I don`t know whether to laugh or
cry, Chris. It`s just so absurd.

HAYES: It generally doesn`t help things for the perception that
you`re acting in good faith when you announce you will sue and only later
do you decide which upon basis you will sue. Thomas Mann --

MANN: I`m thinking, I`m thinking.

HAYES: Thomas Mann from the Brookings Institution. Thanks for your
time tonight.

MANN: Sure.

HAYES: This year`s Emmys already a win for climate science. I`ll
tell you why, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: If you take just the amount of sea level rise, and you factor
it into what the sandy storm surge was, this study says you got about 25
square miles of flooding that wouldn`t have happened. So, my question to
you is, three years from now if there`s another one of these storms that
takes out another 70,000 homes. It`s like, at what point does this become
the priority?

REP. MICHAEL GRIMM (R), NEW YORK: Washington is not real life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: When David Gelber, one of the producers behind Showtime`s
"Years of Living Dangerously" series, first approached me, with an idea to
do a long form, nonfiction documentary series with big Hollywood stars like
James Cameron, and Matt Damon about climate change, I thought he was out of
his mind. But I told him I would do it if he could make it happen, and he
did it.

It ran on Showtime this year as a nine-part series to great critical
acclaim and yesterday was nominated for an Emmy for best nonfiction series.
One of the episodes I worked on, the one you saw there which focused on
hurricane Sandy, featured this exchange with New York Congressman Michael
Grimm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRIMM: The vast majority of respected scientists say that it`s
conclusive. The evidence is clear. I don`t think the jury is out.

HAYES: The basic story of we`re putting carbon in the atmosphere, the
planet`s getting warmer, that`s going to make the sea levels rise. The
basic story to that, you pretty much agree with, right?

GRIMM: Sure. I mean, there`s no question that the oceans have risen,
right? And the climate change part is a real part of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: After that episode aired, but before being indicted, the
congressman tried to walk that back a little bit. That specific episode
was also nominated for an Emmy in the outstanding nonfiction writing
category. Face some stiff competition this year, including Neil deGrasse
Tyson`s "Cosmos", which is also nominated in both categories. As much as
I`m rooting for my own team, the praise and popularity of both shows is
equally reassuring.

People talk a lot lately about a golden age of TV, but never in my
life that I think I`d see a series anchored by an astrophysicist about the
origins of the cosmos on a major commercial network, and one featuring
Harrison Ford, Matt Damon, Don Cheadle and Arnold Schwarzenegger telling
the story of climate change on the other. I hope this is just the
beginning for this kind of television.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: I am in Chicago today and the city right now is bracing itself
for another summer weekend. The July 4th holiday brought a deadly wave of
violence, at least 82 violence were shot over the long weekend, 16 fatally.
Five people were shot by police. Two of those shootings resulting in the
deaths of two teenage boys ages 14 and 16 when they reportedly refused to
drop their weapons.

In the wake of such blood shed, there has been a wave of national
media scrutiny. As part of our "All In America" series we brought you an
in-depth investigative report on race, crime and crime statistics in
Chicago that sought to go behind the headlines and sensationalism with
which Chicago is often treated.

And, today, I had an opportunity to talk with a veteran Chicago
reporter and resident of the city`s south side, Mary Mitchell of the
"Chicago Sun-Times" about her reaction to last weekend`s violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Last weekend, July 4th weekend, 80-plus shootings in the city.
What was the reaction like here locally in Chicago?

MARY MITCHELL, CHICAGO SUN-TIMES REPORTER: Shocked. I mean we have
seen a lot of numbers, but when you talk about a four-day weekend, 80
people shot -- you know, you talk about the fatalities, talk about the
police shootings, five people getting shot, two of them fatally. And, the
ages of the kids, you are talking about 14-year-olds, 16-year-olds.

People are like, what is going on, you know? And, the problem, of
course, is it is summer, everyone is having a great time. Everyone is
enjoying themselves, but in certain communities, warm weather, summer
weather, celebrations bring out the worst in people.

HAYES: How do you understand the national press? Because you know
what -- you know, this weekend happened. This number, it is a shocking
number. It is definitely news, but -- you know, Newt Gingrich is weighing
in on it.

MITCHELL: Right.

HAYES: And, everybody -- it is a national story in a way that it is
always a little surprising to me.

MITCHELL: Well, you know, it is a national story. And, the reason I
think it is a national story is because the fact of who our mayor was, Rahm
Emanuel. He was the chief of staff. He was at the White House. This is
the city of the president of the United States. We are news. You know, if
it had been 10 shootings, I think it would have been news, but to have a
huge number like that has really attracted a lot of national attention.

HAYES: You think it is the presence of Rahm Emanuel, the fact he is a
national figure, the fact Barack Obama is from Chicago, at least in his
adult life is from Chicago, that makes it this focus of national coverage?

MITCHELL: It becomes symbolic of an urban crisis because this is, you
know, urban centers all across America are struggling with gun violence.
And, so I think Chicago has become symbolic of that, because of the types
of crimes that we -- shootings we have had and two young children shot,
because of the numbers of shootings and because of our mayor. You know, we
have a mayor who attracts attention -- a national attention.

HAYES: The trend in crime in Chicago is like other major cities, down
over time.

MITCHELL: Right.

HAYES: Per capita. Now, it has not come down as much as it is
happened in New York, particularly, Los Angeles. But, it is time over
time, down. I mean people are looking around saying, what is going on?
But, if you put that in the context of ten years, I mean, it is better now
than it was ten years ago, right?

MITCHELL: Right. It is better now than ten years ago, but I think
that you have to really look at it in terms of the victims. Who is getting
killed? Children. And, there is no way to -- when one child is killed.
It is a terrible thing. So, if you have a dozen, if you have
schoolchildren getting killed. It is a horrible crime. And, so I think
that is one reason why people are very interested and why it feels, you do
not feel safe, you know?

HAYES: Right. It feels worse even if the numbers --

MITCHELL: The numbers may say one thing, but if you do not feel safe
when you walk outside your door, if you do not feel safe when you go to the
park, you do not want to take your children outside and do all those kinds
of activities that you should do in the summertime because you heard that
this kid just got shot down the block.

If women are getting shot on the porches, or men are getting shot in
their cars and have nothing to do with this. Because a lot of this not
because there is gang involvement. It is not because there is drug
involvement. It is because people have guns and are randomly firing guns
on the streets.

HAYES: This is a really key point because it always felt to me that
when I lived in Chicago, I lived here from 2001 to 2007. And, that was a
period of time when murders were very high in Chicago.

MITCHELL: Right.

HAYES: But, in the places I lived in -- I even lived in some
neighborhoods that actually had fairly high crime rates. I always felt
safe partly because when you looked at those murders, it felt like this was
basically gang members shooting gang members.

MITCHELL: Right. As long as you are clean, as long as you are not
involved, you do not have to have anything to worry about.

HAYES: Exactly. That was always the way I feel like the city dealt
with it or at least certain precincts of the city dealt with it. And, what
you are saying is there seems -- there is a perception, whether it is true
or not, that the shift from victims being two gang members squaring off, to
a 16-year-old, someone in a car.

MITCHELL: Right. We may find -- on closer inspection, we may find
that there was always a myth. That the drug-related, gang-related was
always a myth. But, we know for sure right now, we have too many instances
of victims who did nothing.

They were walking down the street. They were getting out of their
car. They were going to a park. They were doing everyday normal things
and because of the shooting on the street, the fact people have -- young
kids have guns. They have not been to target practice. They do not know
how to fire the gun.

So, they are just running up and down the street, firing these weapons
and hitting innocent people. Those are the kinds of crimes I think that we
are seeing more of. And, they have more of an impact on people because
that could be me and that could be you.

HAYES: How would you characterize relationships with the police
department at this point?

MITCHELL: Well, I think a lot of residents still distrust police. I
was in the store the other day, department store and this woman recognized
me and stopped me and we started talking about the crime. And, I said,
well, what do you think has happened? She said, "People do not want to
report it to police because they do not know if the police are involved in
it or not." Now, that is a very, very pessimistic view.

HAYES: Yes.

MITCHELL: -- That you would think -- you would rather deal with the
crime, you know, risk getting shot or live in these communities and feel
unsafe than report it to police because you do not know whether the police
are involved.

That has been the long-standing tension between police and some of
these communities that are suffering from crime. Because, let`s face it,
we have had a lot of police corruption. They were raiding drug dealers,
planting drugs on people. These are real cases.

So, in the community, there are people who are afraid that if they
tell you, they talk to the police officer and the person next door knows
that they have talked to police officers, and that person is involved in
crime, that could get back on the street.

Those are real problems that I think the city of Chicago and the
Police Department have begun to work on, but of course, they are not
putting the focus on it, not the way they are trying to bring down these
numbers.

HAYES: How do you think the mayors handle it?

MITCHELL: I think -- here is what I like about what the mayor is
doing, that is he is not giving in. He is not saying, OK, there is nothing
that can be done. You know, he is not trying to sugarcoat it. It is what
it is. OK? He has increased the numbers of police officers that go into
certain communities.

He has tried to bring in resources and services in those communities.
So, that there are options and alternatives to those people who say they
want to get out of the gang life. They want to do something differently.
That is what he is doing good. He needs to sit down with community leaders
and not just talk about another march. He needs to sit down and strategize
a plan that will aggressively get those guns off the street.

That might be stop and frisk. He might have to be in the political
fight of his life just sending in police officers to get the weapons off
the streets. Then the second thing he needs to do, I think is sit down
with the people that he believe are responsible and behind these shootings
and have a face to face and sit down in a powwow and say, "Hey, what is it
that we need to do to stop this?"

HAYES: That is a very radical suggestion. I mean you are saying that
the mayor of the city of Chicago should sit down with essentially higher-
ups in gangs.

MITCHELL: That has happened in California. That happened when the
bloods and the creeps were going at it and people were getting killed, what
did they do? They called a truce. They sat down with the community
leaders and they had a truce. This is a crisis. I mean, you cannot say,
well I am not going to talk to them because they are the bad guys. How do
you fix something if you do not talk to the bad guys?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Once upon a time fans used to identify with the workers. Now,
they identify with management. We will try to get to the bottom of why
that is, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: If you wanted to get an idea of just how bad it has been for
sports teams in Cleveland, Ohio, you can do what we did in the office
today. We searched Cleveland pro-sports championships in Google. And, you
know what the very first result that came up was? The Wikipedia page for
the word, drought. It has been a long, long time.

When we return, we will talk to Senator Sherrod Brown and Columnist
Connie Schultz, the husband and wife team from Cleveland, Ohio, about the
news today that could change all that. Do not go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: The answer to the question everybody
wants to know, Lebron, what is your decision?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEBRON JAMES, AMERICAN PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYER: In this fall,
man -- this is very tough. In this fall, I am going to take my talents to
South Beach and join the Miami Heat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Four years ago, Lebron James did something no other athlete
had ever done. He decided to make his free agency decision a live one-hour
television extravaganza called aptly enough "The Decision" to tell the
world he was leaving more or less his hometown Cleveland Cavaliers to take
his, quote, "Talents to South Beach."

"Sports Illustrated" had labeled James, an Akron, Ohio native, "The
Chosen One" while he was still in high school. I remember watching him
play in high school on nationally televised games. Suffice to say, the
long-suffering Cleveland sports fan who have not seen a championship title
in any professional sport in 50 years, left a little emotional when
arguably the greatest active player in the game today decided to jet.

Some people even went as far as burning the man`s jersey. But, the
freak-out was not limited to fans and the kinds who call on the sports
radio. Dan Gilbert, the owner of the Cleveland Cavaliers responded by
writing a rather nasty and now epic response from Lebron`s exit from
Cleveland in comic sans, no less. In which he wrote, the Cavaliers` fans
"Simply do not deserve this cowardly betrayal and this shocking act of
disloyalty from our homegrown chosen one sends the exact opposite lesson of
what we want our children to learn."

Gilbert then went on to, quote, "Guarantee the cavaliers will win an
NBA championship before the self-titled former king wins one." Hopefully,
the good people of Cleveland did not bet on that because Lebron James went
on to win two championships in four years. While, the Cavaliers, according
to ESPN, dropped from second in total attendance in 2010. Lebron`s final
season to team to 22nd in 2013 and failed to make the playoffs each year.

And, up until Sunday night that infamous letter had remained on the
Cavs website then it suddenly disappeared. Apparently, because the team
was engaged in talks for Lebron James to return to Cleveland after opting
out of the final two years of his contract in Miami.

And, today, the announcement came via an essay in "Sports Illustrated"
titled "I am coming home," which Lebron told the magazine, quote, "My
presence can make a difference in Miami but I think it can mean more where
I am from. I want kids in Northeast Ohio to realize that there is no
better place to grow up. Maybe some of them will come home after college,
and start a family, or open a business. That would make me smile. Our
community which has struggled so much needs all the talent it can get."

And, joining me now to discuss this is Connie Schultz, Pulitzer
surprise-winning columnist who used to write for the "Cleveland plain
dealer" and her husband, Senator Sherrod Brown, democrat from Ohio, and
they are proud Cleveland residents. It is wonderful to have you two
together. Connie, I will start with you. Your reaction to today`s news.

CONNIE SCHULTZ, PULITZER SURPRISE-WINNING COLUMNIST: Well, I know you
were trying to bait us with that lead-in, but it is not going to work,
Chris, because family forgives. And, that is how we are feeling about this
today. Sherrod and I moved back to the city of Cleveland last fall, so
this is beyond exciting for us.

We are thrilled he is coming back. Sherrod, I think you felt the same
way. I never cared that he was going to leave. I remember writing at the
time before he made his decision. I remember saying, look, he is 25 years
old. If he were my son, I would say, "You do what you need to do, son."
But, then he did the decision the way he did.

SEN. SHERROD BROWN, (D) OHIO SENATOR: I mean I cared that he was
going to leave and I was not happy when he left. But, I also understood,
as Connie said, there was an interesting comment from, I believe, a barber
in East Cleveland. I think he was in East Cleveland. Today, you said, you
know, he went away for four years in the service. Then got to see the
world, came back to Cleveland. That is what Lebron did.

And, people are very excited about him. I saw Lebron play. His best
friends, a woman worked with in Akron. Her son and Lebron were best
friends growing up. So, I saw Lebron a number of times play at Barberton
High School and University of Akron arena where Lebron is high school moved
its games. And he was, you know, sort of a man-child playing with young
men or playing with boys really.

SCHULTZ: When Sherrod started dating me, one of the first things she
showed me was a picture of him with Lebron.

(LAUGHING)

SEN. BROWN: Yes. Well, I do not claim to know -- really impressed
her. It made her want to come for a second date. It was the reason for
the second date that I actually knew Lebron James. I have to prove I
actually know him. Sure.

HAYES: I love -- I find just from a dramatic perspective I think -- I
love the story of the return. I love what it does for the NBA because I
think it makes it, creates a really exciting story line. It is in the same
division as my Bulls who I hope get Carmelo Anthony, which remains to be
seen.

But, that was such an emotionally raw moment. I mean the decision
really made people in Cleveland upset and then there was that Dan Gilbert
letter. And, then, there is this great piece today in Yahoo! Sports about
how the decision kind of came to embody Lebron and the letter from Dan
Gilbert came to embody him. I wonder, like, what was your reaction at the
time, each of you to the letter when it came out, which seemed as over the
top as the decision was?

SCHULTZ: Well, we were together when the -- I was sitting -- I will
never forget, we were sitting at the kitchen counter and I said, "Oh, this
cannot be real. This letter cannot be real." And, it was. But, I will
say this, for Dan Gilbert. He has apologized to Lebron James. LEBRON
JAMES apologized to him for how he handled the decision. And, look, that
is -- I do not want to make that just a Cleveland thing. I think that
resonates around the country.

HAYES: Yes.

SCHULTZ: But, it is definitely a Cleveland thing, too.

SEN. BROWN: And, Chris, I think -- exactly right. You referenced the
letter in "Sports Illustrated" that Lebron wrote today that was published
online and it really shows a maturity, you know? We all make mistakes. We
all -- I mean somebody in politics does not say things I wish I could take
back sometimes.

HAYES: Right.

SEN. BROWN: I mean it happens. And, when you are at the level of
Lebron or Dan Gilbert, you do say things you wished you did not. And, they
both showed a contrition, but a maturity especially for the young Lebron
James and showed a real maturity in that letter. That is why you are
excited.

This is a great day, great week for Cleveland. Republican national
convention announced they were coming to Cleveland. First time a
convention has been in Ohio since 1936, I mentioned that they nominated Alf
Landon. As names goes -- so goes Vermont, republicans carried two states.
I assured Mitch McConnell when they nominate their nominee in Cleveland in
2016, they will, in fact, carry more than two states. Maybe not a lot
more. But, it is been a great week for Cleveland.

SCHULTZ: And, we think you should come out. Start coming out right
now. Not just for the convention, Chris, start coming out now. You can
stay with us. We have a guestroom.

HAYES: That is a very kind offer. I will take you up on it. And,
also --

SEN. BROWN: We have a really cool dog, too, Chris.

HAYES: Can you guys just move -- just so we are clear. You, guys,
were not living in Cleveland proper inside the city and moved into it just
in the last year, right?

SCHULTZ: Right. I mean I have been covering it, working in it.

SEN. BROWN: Chris, you know, Connie and I were talking, is it a
coincidence we move into Cleveland, republicans bring their convention
here, then Lebron James announces he is coming to Cleveland.

HAYES: They are turning the city around.

SEN. BROWN: Is that a coincidence? I do not know. What do you
think, Chris?

SCHULTZ: Chris. There is --

HAYES: Connie, I was reading what you wrote the other day. I think
you wrote it. You might have posted it on Facebook about the Snark
directed by some of the beltway press when the Republican Party made the
announcement in Cleveland. Cleveland has this kind of cultural
significance like, "Oh, it is the river is on fire. It is the butt of the
joke." And, it strikes me as part of what has made this news today so
exciting.

SCHULTZ: Yes, but that was actually my syndicated column you probably
saw that I had posted. And, my point was this, in particular the D.C.
Media Corps. If you are going to trash talk my city, get your facts right.
Please know what you are talking about. That chip on our shoulder, long
gone.

You know, we do not sign up with losers. We came to the city of
Cleveland to be part of the renaissance there. And, I would encourage
reporters to start coming into Cleveland now. And get to know it. One
more thing -- All right. OK. Go ahead. Cleveland is --

SEN. BROWN: One example, Cleveland -- the year I was born, there were
2,000 people living in downtown Cleveland. By next year, there will be
14,000 living downtown. Young people want to live in Cleveland. There are
some really great neighborhoods. City is coming back and it is really
exciting because it is a city that is gone through hard times with
foreclosures, with manufacturing job loss. It is a great city.

SCHULTZ: And, it is full of --

HAYES: I am going to come see it in person and check out your
guestroom.

SCHULTZ: All right.

HAYES: Connie Schultz and Senator Sherrod Brown, thank you, both.

SCHULTZ: Cannot wait to see you.

HAYES: All right.

SEN. BROWN: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: All right. How participating in fantasy leagues has changed
sports fans, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Miami played his last basketball game four weeks ago yet it is
the NBA, yet it is the NBA dominating headlines, right now. We are in the
off season. And, that is the time of the year where the general managers
shine, and not the players where our teams office makes trades and
loopholes in the incredibly byzantine and complex collective bargaining
agreement.

And, we are in an era in which fans, themselves, have come to identify
as much or more with general managers, front-office staff through fantasy
leagues and advanced statistics than they do with players. Joining me now,
Bomani Jones, co-host of Highly Questionable on ESPN 2. Bomani do you
agree with the premise, we are in a strange era, which thanks to fantasy
sports, everyone sees themselves as a general manager and imagines
themselves as a player?

BOMANI JONES, CO-HOST ESPN 2, "HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE:" Well, I think
that part of it is that we have fantasy sports. I think another part of it
is while we are not a mathematical juggernaut as a country, there are a lot
more people who can do fancy arithmetic than there are people that can do
things that will actually make you into a basketball or football player.

(LAUGHING)

HAYES: That is right.

JONES: So, like, if you are going to rationally choose your dream, general
Manager, in a way, you could argue makes a lot more sense.

HAYES: I cannot believe -- I am not like -- I am on an e-mail threat
with friends of mine who are Bulls fans from Chicago and I left Chicago. I
cannot believe the degree of sophistication and nuance with which they know
every nook and cranny of the NBA collective bargain agreement.

And, you will have a bar conversation with someone they are talking
about the most obscure contractual parts of how a team is going to stay
under cap space. I feel like that was not the case five or ten years ago.

JONES: Well, no, it was not. I think also part of it is that the
internet has given us more information and more content that people can
have that are geared toward this. I think a market just popped up that
people did not realize was there. People who have analytical minds who did
want to know and understand these things because they governed the games
that they were watching.

And, now, suddenly, you can find a whole lot more people who can do
this. And, I am thoroughly impressed by it because I was on the Wiki
yesterday looking up the early bird exception or what are those? And, I
was just like I could not imagine my job being to keep all of these things
straight. There are people with regular jobs who do this like for a hobby.

HAYES: I cannot believe it and what it also means is you have now got
this sort of year-round scenario, right? So, if you look at the NFL draft
-- I mean, the NFL draft arguably is the biggest thing the NFL does aside
from the Super Bowl in terms of the amount of attention around it. And,
that is just like putting people on a board and evaluating them in this
very kind of statistical, strange sort of impersonal way.

JONES: Yes, well the draft stuff is interesting because it is all
from a distance. You have data, people watching film. So, there is always
going to be a distance that makes it a little more difficult especially
with the NFL Draft. The NBA draft is a little bit more of an eyeball test
when you talk about those things.

On the other side, though, it is generated an economy. A lot of
people have come up and started getting good work because there is such a
demand for this content and there is no real way that you can certify who
is or is not qualified to do it. I mean, there are people who work for NFL
teams, but they cannot necessarily write. So, if you can write and you can
demonstrate yourself to be knowledgeable, suddenly there is work out for
you.

HAYES: Do you think it is a good trend in general? There is part of
me that thinks there is something a little strange about people coming to
identify with lack for a better way of saying this, the bosses rather than
the laborers. Like there is this way of imaging yourself as an owner and
general manager as opposed to imagining yourself doing the thing that
always reads a little odd to me.

JONES: Yes, well America and professional sports generally is one of
these odd places where people do seem to relate very often more so to
management than the players that they have on the field. There is a range
of reasons why that might be the case.

The concern that I have about that is probably a general concern that
we have a lot of industries in this country, which is we lose the humanity
of people when we basically start evaluating them as being inputs. And,
that is really what we are doing by in large. A lot of teams are doing
this. Crank out data, give us equations and let us know what happens.

HAYES: You know? I think it is particularly the draft day around the
NFL that I find it strangely creepy. It is like reducing human beings to
spreadsheets. Bomani Jones from ESPN 2, great to have you on the program.
I really appreciate it.

JONES: Yes. Thanks for having me.

HAYES: All right. That is "All In" for this evening. "The Rachel
Maddow Show" starts now with Ari Melber sitting in for Rachel. Good
evening, Ari.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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